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Article by Thomas Clough

Rebuttal by: The Saracen Knight

quote:
The Nation of Islam
This is a religious painting. It depicts the creation of the White Race by the black lunatic-genius Yacub, one of the Original Black Men. If you have never heard of Yacub, then you are unaware of the true nature of the hottest, fastest growing religious movement in America today: The Nation of Islam.
The spiritual head of the Nation of Islam is the Reverend Louis Farrakhan, formerly Louis X, and before that Louis Eugene Walcott. The Reverend Farrakhan regularly draws crowds of 15,000 to twenty thousand to municipal auditoriums all over America. In October 1995 his Million Man March drew 800,000 enthusiastic black men to America's capital city to hear the gospel according to Farrakhan. In attendance were The Fruit of Islam, the NOI's paramilitary wing.



Okay, let us start clearing up the lies...


1. The drawing is a complete misrepresentation of the NOI doctrine as it relates to the origination of the White race. We do not teach that Yakub created a group of people like the picture depicts. Instead we believe that Yakub engineered a process of human breeding, or birth control, in order to extract a potentiality which always existed in the human genome. We have always had the potential to become white under the right circumstances. Yakub created the circumstance which allowed for the emergence of the white phenotype. This theory is not far from the accepted view of white emergence save in the Standard model there was a geographic isolation piece, and there was no mention of an intentional process, however most recent theories include not only geographic pressure, but they also include sexual selection which is tied into social pressure..If carefully examined, sexual selection of lighter skinned mates would imply intent toward lighter skin.

2. The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan Muhammad is not known as a Reverend, he is a Minister. His Official title is National Representative Of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad. Minister Farrakhan is not the "head" of the NOI. He is presently the Senior Officer among the ranks of the NOI in America today.

3. The Million Man March drew more than 2 million black men. The Million Family March crowd was estimated as over 800,000. Anyone who attended both Marches will tell you that there was more than twice as many attendees at the first march....There are aerial photos of both events...Take a look and see for yourself.



The above is a picture from the Million Man March..Can you see how dense the crowd is from the Capital steps all the way to the Lincoln Memorial?? The place was jam packed everywhere...There was way more than 800,000 people..This lie was told so that our people would be denied the distinction of being the first to bring over a Million people to the Mall.


quote:
According to the Nation of Islam's most-sacred doctrine, the mad-genius-scientist Yacub spent six hundred years trying to create a race of devils from the "germs" of blacks. Yacub's synthetic progeny were the evil White People. He created them to bedevil black folks



4. The origin of the white race is not close to being the core, or most sacred aspect of the NOI doctrine. It would be accurate to say that a knowledge of human divinity and proper order is the core doctrine.

5. Yakub was not ever labeled as a "Mad scientist" to the contrary the Honorable Elijah Muhammad describes Yakub as a very great scientist. Yakub understood the ailment which existed in our community, and He extracted the natural enemy by a process so that we could be exposed to what was plaguing so many of our ancient Kingdoms. Yakub's work was to bring an end to the timeless battle between Ausar, Set, and Heru. The coming of the Final Master would Herald the Dawn of an age of everlasting Order.

quote:
Nation of Islam doctrine is the fruit of one man's imagination; that man was Wallace Fard, formerly Wallace Ford, and later Muhammad Fard. Before Fard became the self-anointed founder of his own religion, he supported himself, here and there, as a door-to-door salesman, a seller of bootlegged liquor, and a narcotics hustler. He was arrested in numerous cities; he served several years in prison for dealing drugs. Whenever Fard was arrested he identified himself as a white man. He repeatedly asserted that he was born in New Zealand to a Polynesian mother and an Englishman. If true, it was this conman's greatest con, for it meant that the founder of the Black Muslims was not a light-skinned mulatto after all, was not "black" at all. When the Detroit police asked his identity in the early 1930s, Fard responded: "I am the Supreme Ruler of the Universe".



6. The Nation Of Islam's doctrine revealed to the public by Master Fard Muhammad was not new...Not at all..However, before the 20th century it was a very secret doctrine known only to those initiates who were awakened within the degrees of secret Societies. the initial path toward learning these secrets started with the Masonic Order. The travel continued from there toward many paths, all leading east.

Below is what the Fruit Of Islam looked liked before the coming of Master Fard Muhammad:




These are Prince Hall Masons...After having been raised from death.
Notice how they are dressed? Kinda like one of those Farrakhanites huh??

7. Master Fard Muhammad did not sell Liquor door to door during Prohibition. He was a clothing sales person and he used this trade as a way to introduce himself to the black community. he would visit the homes of poor blacks and offer silk garments made in the east. This sales pitch would open the door to conversation, and then this would lead to someone joining the movement. The Fruit Of Islam still go door to door today selling The Final Call Newspaper and other NOI products.

8. Master Fard Muhammad was arrested in Detroit as part of the local governments attempts to halt the growth of a movement toward Black upliftment and separation. This is nothing new. The COINTELPRO devised a lie which they unleashed on the public in the 50's claiming that Master Fard Muhammad was a man named Wallace Dodd Ford. Wallace Dodd Ford was a convicted Narcotics dealer, however, the two men were not the same person. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad offered a challenge to the Government and to the news media. He offered to pay to have the man Wallace Dodd Ford brought to Chicago, and prove that he was the same person as Master Fard Muhammad. he offered to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars if the two men were the same person, and he agreed to stop teaching if Wallace Dodd Ford could be proven to be Master Fard Muhammad...There were thousands of believers alive in the fifties who could identify Master Fard Muhammad since he had over 20,000 followers in 1934 in Detroit alone. No one excepted the challenge...No one came forward to collect the money or to silence Elijah Muhammad..yet people still tell this lie as if it was the truth.

9. Wallace dodd Ford was a convicted narcotics dealer from California. If Master Fard Muhammad was this same man then you would expect that he would have only been arrested once and returned to prison in California, instead he was ordered out of detroit...Doesn't that sound funny?? What kind of Law enforcement agency would allow such a thing? especially in the thirties?

quote:
Fard's theology borrowed wholesale from several religions, including Islam and the Jehovah's Witnesses. To this he added a hearty helping of numerology, pseudo-science and bogus history which placed blacks at the center of world history and stressed their divinity. To make it all seem less alien to American blacks, NOI mosques have pews, not prayer rugs on the floor; sermons dwell on the Bible more than the Koran


10. This clearly represents a great degree of ignorance. the Mosques do not contain pews..

11. Blacks are at the center of world history...We are black people and it only makes sense that we would view history from our own vantage point.

12. Lectures, not sermons were delivered out of both books...There was an emphasis on the Bible because the Bible was where our belief was centered, and due to the fact that the Bible is in fact the proper scripture to teach from..The Holy Qur'an is the last revelation however, it is not the sole revelation, and any good student will study both books.

quote:
Throughout it all is the incessant drumbeat that white people are devils, that the devils must be killed, and that someday, after all the white people have been killed, black people will enjoy paradise in this world. When Minister Louis Farrakhan goes on national television and begins to rattle on about the "Great Mother Wheel", half a mile in diameter, that is now in deep orbit above our planet, he is only recalling Fard's prediction that the "Mother of Planes", "a small human planet", would come with special weapons and kill all the white folks.



13. The Nation Of Islamn does not teach that all white people will be killed in some apocalyptic event. This is just a bold lie. We teach of the existence of a technology which was devised by eastern Scientist on one of Japan's islands. This ship is a flying aircraft carrier called "The Motherplane" This Airship was designed using science hidden since the collapse of our High ancient civilizations. The people of Kemet and the Dravidian text stolen by the aryan both agree on the exisitence of flying crafts in the ancient world. The vedic script calls these ships "Vimanas" and the script speaks of similiar technology created by the ancient people of (Atlantis)KMT. The idea of a flying plane capable of carrying smaller planes is not foreign nor is it even fantastic necesarily, the idea is not palatable for one good reason...White folk didn't create it...The Motherplane is described as being 1/2 mile by 1/2 mile which is approximately the size of two large aircraft carriers...Is it really so hard to imagine a flying vehicle of this size?

The ship was designed as a warcraft which would be put into use against two governments, the United States, and England. It was predicted that the wheel would be used in the event that the U.S. military was ordered to attack the Nation Of Islam.



These and other UFO sightings are believed to be the result of people viewing ancient technology employed today...

quote:
Authentic Muslim clerics have declared the Nation of Islam to be heretical, which is to say false, bogus, and not in the spirit of true Islam. Because it preaches the inherent superiority of the black race and the inborn inferiority of all white people, the Nation of Islam is, in its very essence, a racist organization. Because it enthusiastically anticipates the complete extermination of all white people, it is a hate-filled racist organization.



14. Authentic Muslim Clerics have declared Shia Islam as heretical, and others have declared Sunni Islam heretical and others have declared Sufi Islam as heretical. This is easy. While the NOI is lambasted we are also embraced. In 1997 Minister Farrakhan received the honor of being made a Sheikh by Orthodox muslims and was granted the position as deputy director over a Middle eastern Islamic organization. His position was second only to Muammar Qadafi on this Counsel.

15. The NOI has members of every nationality. Even white. If people study our doctrine carefully they will find that we call ourselves the Nation Of Islam in the West. We are not the only NOI..We are part of a larger Nation Of Muslims, however, in America we do not allow white members since our sickness as a people is tied to our reverence of whites we must have an environment free of whites so that the attention will remain on us..Black people today see a group of black people, and a few whites, and we assume that the whites are in charge. This is how we think unfortunately..Our organization must be free of this disease for now..

quote:
The Minister Louis Farrakhan preaches Fard's hateful doctrine and America's "black leaders" embrace him. Many white liberals seem eager to kiss his shiny patent-leather shoes. Now just imagine that the hottest thing going among white Americans, young and old alike, was a charismatic orator with a tongue of fire who preached that black folks were just a bunch of Frankenstein's monsters, black devils really, the result of insane genetic experiments , who were unleashed upon the Earth to make the lives of white people a living hell. Imagine that he preached that there would be Paradise on Earth once all the black folks were dead. Imagine that he was drawing crowds by the tens of thousands to municipal auditoriums all across America. Just imagine it. How would black folks respond? What would they say?


White leaders create conflicts in the african world which results in the wholesale murder and death of millions of black people. they do fill stadiums with this message of race hate, they do actually follow through with killing. the audience for NOI is limited to lecture halls, and churches, while white power brokers have the power to disseminate the messsage across the airwaves...There is no comparison...

We do not teach race extermination, nor do we practice it...Can white controlled governments say the same???

This article was filled with the crap that I hear all the time from so-called "experts" on the NOI...I wish I could find Karl Evanzz...


Anyway, I know this was long, but for those who like to know the truth about a thing I think it helps to clear up the lies from the truth..atleast about the Nation Of Islam.



Kai
"Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!" And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.
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Original Post
Peace....



quote:
Kai,
Have you done much study of on the Moorish Science Temple and the Noble Drew Ali?



Yes, I have studied the Moorish Science Temple of America. I have placed many years into the study of their founder Noble Drew Ali.

The theology of the Moorish Science Temple is very similiar to the theology of the NOI however, while they share a common lineage, they are not necessarily directly tied.

there are those who suggest that Master Fard Muhammad was a former memeber of the MSTA. There is some truth in this however, not in the way that people would like to think.

According to The Honorable Elijah Muhammad, Master Fard Muhammad visited America first in 1910. He came for the expressed purpose of studying the condition of American Black people. Part of His study was the study of The Honorable Marcus Garvey, and the Illustrious Noble Drew Ali. His involvement in both camps is Notorious.

There is a very specific ritual in the Masonic practice which alludes to the presence of all three men...Marcus Garvey, Noble Drew Ali, and Finally the Master Fard Muhammad...


Kai
Peace....

I wish to clarify something as it relates to the Prince Hall Masons. The brothers who were raised in this order were not "Fruit Of Islam" as the FOI today. Instead they were initiated into a process which leads to a belief system comparable to what was taught by The Honorable Elijah Muhammad. Prince Hall Masonry becomes Prince Hall Shrinedom for those who accept the auxillury degrees which come after the Blue Lodge ceremony and induction into the 3rd Degree.

Brick Masonry is one of the first crafts the operative trades person learns. The Mason erects on a foundation using the plumb and level, however, the building of the temple requires more than the Masonry trade...

The later degrees begin to introduce the Freemason into what lies ahead as they reach the 32 degree or 33 degree in some orders and request entry into the Order of Shriners who begin the study of ancient Islam.

The Shriners are part of the Ancient Order Of Nobles of the Mystic Shrine. Most wear the Fez, and refer to Morrocco as the "Holy City". The Shriner offers the Islamic greeting "As Salaam Alaikum", and studies from the "Koran".

So to be clear, the Freemason is an entered Apprentice into an order which if completed would lead to Islam.


Kai
There is a false impression among some Black Americans that Islam is African or that their African ancestors were Muslims.
This is all hogwash !! Islam is just as alien to Africa as Christianity. In fact Christianity reached Africa long before Islam, as even Islamic tradition confirms when it states that their founder "prophet" Mohammed took refuge in Christian Ethiopia.

NOI is just another disingenous, pathetic attempt by unimaginative, culturally disoriented black people to expropriate another bogus white doctrine (Islam) as African or black; just as Rastafarians do with Christianity - claiming the late Emperor Selassie as the biblical messiah.

There is nothing African or Black about Islam. Islamic historical tradition informs us that their founder, "Prophet" Mohammed had black slaves (Sahih Bukhari 8:73:182, 3:43:648, 6:60435, Malik Muwatta 21.13.25, Sahih Muslim 10:3901).
The racist "prophet" valued his black slaves much less than white ones as he reportedly sold by barter two black slaves for a white one (Sahih Muslim 10:3901).

Muslim Arabs raided and traficked in African slaves for centuries before the trans-Atlantic slave trade and continued long after. In fact Arab enslavement of Africans continued up to the last decade in Sudan and Mauritania. Muslim Arabs trafficking in Africans operated the world's largest slave market in Zanzibar until the threat of British Naval bombardment shut down that inhuman bazaar in the late 19th century.

In accordance with the dictates of their Quran (Q 23:1-6, 70:29-30, 4:24), Arab slavemasters raped our women giving rise to some of the so-called black Arabs.

Male black slaves were castrated so that we could not reproduce. This racist prohibition of Negroid procreation is the major reason for the absence of a sizeable indigenous black population in the Arab world as in the Americas...even though Arab enslavement of Africans lasted much longer (over 1400 years) than the trans-Atlantic trade (200 years).

The Arab castration of male black slaves / captives often involved amputation of the penis. Many of our brothers died of complications of this crude primitive surgery. Others had to live with agonizing complications... repeated infections, dribbling of urine etc.

African-Americans who wish to spiritually connect to their African roots should look to the rich indigenous ancestral, spiritual traditions of black Africa, not Arabia. Islam or any distorted variant of it, just isn't the answer.
quote:
Originally posted by Naf:
There is a false impression among some Black Americans that Islam is African or that their African ancestors were Muslims.
This is all hogwash !! Islam is just as alien to Africa as Christianity. In fact Christianity reached Africa long before Islam, as even Islamic tradition confirms when it states that their founder "prophet" Mohammed took refuge in Christian Ethiopia.

NOI is just another disingenous, pathetic attempt by unimaginative, culturally disoriented black people to expropriate another bogus white doctrine (Islam) as African or black; just as Rastafarians do with Christianity - claiming the late Emperor Selassie as the biblical messiah.

There is nothing African or Black about Islam. Islamic historical tradition informs us that their founder, "Prophet" Mohammed had black slaves (Sahih Bukhari 8:73:182, 3:43:648, 6:60435, Malik Muwatta 21.13.25, Sahih Muslim 10:3901).
The racist "prophet" valued his black slaves much less than white ones as he reportedly sold by barter two black slaves for a white one (Sahih Muslim 10:3901).

Muslim Arabs raided and traficked in African slaves for centuries before the trans-Atlantic slave trade and continued long after. In fact Arab enslavement of Africans continued up to the last decade in Sudan and Mauritania. Muslim Arabs trafficking in Africans operated the world's largest slave market in Zanzibar until the threat of British Naval bombardment shut down that inhuman bazaar in the late 19th century.

In accordance with the dictates of their Quran (Q 23:1-6, 70:29-30, 4:24), Arab slavemasters raped our women giving rise to some of the so-called black Arabs.

Male black slaves were castrated so that we could not reproduce. This racist prohibition of Negroid procreation is the major reason for the absence of a sizeable indigenous black population in the Arab world as in the Americas...even though Arab enslavement of Africans lasted much longer (over 1400 years) than the trans-Atlantic trade (200 years).

The Arab castration of male black slaves / captives often involved amputation of the penis. Many of our brothers died of complications of this crude primitive surgery. Others had to live with agonizing complications... repeated infections, dribbling of urine etc.

African-Americans who wish to spiritually connect to their African roots should look to the rich indigenous ancestral, spiritual traditions of black Africa, not Arabia. Islam or any distorted variant of it, just isn't the answer.


flowers
Peace....

quote:
There is a false impression among some Black Americans that Islam is African or that their African ancestors were Muslims.


I do not think that there are any learned muslims who believe that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was an African. I think most people who are muslim realize that the religion of Islam, as delivered through the Prophet, came via the Arabian peninsula...However, if one studies the proclamation of Muhammad they will easily discover that asserted his position as the last in a line of prophets teaching an ancient religion which was called Islam.

Prophet Muhammad never claimed to created the religion, he actually claimed to be the last to receive it...This is an islamic claim...

quote:
This is all hogwash !! Islam is just as alien to Africa as Christianity. In fact Christianity reached Africa long before Islam, as even Islamic tradition confirms when it states that their founder "prophet" Mohammed took refuge in Christian Ethiopia.



This view demonstrates a very lazy study of the subject. This statement would be comparable to someone claiming that Pythagorean theory is actually Greek, or that Monotheism is actually Semitic. When you speak of "Chrisitianity" and "Islam" as being nonindigenous to Africa you are only correct on a very shallow surface level...Pythagorean theory is not indigenous to Kemet, however, the principle, and math theory called "Pythagorean" is in fact African...The religion of Islam if studied will reveal nothing new to the African mystic...The relgion is only new to those who had never received the message...

quote:
NOI is just another disingenous, pathetic attempt by unimaginative, culturally disoriented black people to expropriate another bogus white doctrine (Islam) as African or black; just as Rastafarians do with Christianity - claiming the late Emperor Selassie as the biblical messiah.



This is nothing but the dozens with a few big words...


quote:
There is nothing African or Black about Islam. Islamic historical tradition informs us that their founder, "Prophet" Mohammed had black slaves (Sahih Bukhari 8:73:182, 3:43:648, 6:60435, Malik Muwatta 21.13.25, Sahih Muslim 10:3901).
The racist "prophet" valued his black slaves much less than white ones as he reportedly sold by barter two black slaves for a white one (Sahih Muslim 10:3901).


The Prophet Muhammad freed slaves. Bilal the Abysinnian was one of the first converts..He was a slave freed by Muhammad. Once again Naf this is slander that I am only responding to because it seems that you have gained the support of others that i respect..usually I ignore this kinda crap...

quote:
Muslim Arabs raided and traficked in African slaves for centuries before the trans-Atlantic slave trade and continued long after. In fact Arab enslavement of Africans continued up to the last decade in Sudan and Mauritania. Muslim Arabs trafficking in Africans operated the world's largest slave market in Zanzibar until the threat of British Naval bombardment shut down that inhuman bazaar in the late 19th century.


What does this have to do with the religion of Islam?

What does this have to do with the Nation Of Islam?

quote:
Male black slaves were castrated so that we could not reproduce. This racist prohibition of Negroid procreation is the major reason for the absence of a sizeable indigenous black population in the Arab world as in the Americas...even though Arab enslavement of Africans lasted much longer (over 1400 years) than the trans-Atlantic trade (200 years).



This is a poor, and I mean poor indictment against a belief system...

quote:
The Arab castration of male black slaves / captives often involved amputation of the penis. Many of our brothers died of complications of this crude primitive surgery. Others had to live with agonizing complications... repeated infections, dribbling of urine etc.



Once again this has nothing to do with this thread...

I am not an Arab, nor do I endorse the history of those who commit wrongdoing..But we do not judge physcis by Einstein's morality, we do not judge calculus by the ethics of Isaac Newton, we do not judge Cosmological models by the integrity of Stephen Hawkings...Islam is a doctrine..If there is a criticism of a doctrine then let the criticism be folund against the reasoning, and evidence undergirding the belief...Your position is nothing but a feeble attempt at legitimacy.

quote:
African-Americans who wish to spiritually connect to their African roots should look to the rich indigenous ancestral, spiritual traditions of black Africa, not Arabia. Islam or any distorted variant of it, just isn't the answer.



Islam is not a distortion of the African root, it is evidence of it...But you have to be learned beyond the level of one who just wishes to criticize to see this..

I want you to think about this...If Islam was a continuation of a message which was far more ancient than the last deliverer, then is it possible for the earlier messages to have come out of Africa?

Once again while you may guess at it, I know that the Prophet Muhammad believed this, and he taught it to his followers...

Why Islam you or others may ask? Why not ancient kemetic religion or Ancient West african faiths?

If we study our own history we will find a theme in the events which have led to this moment in time. This story started in the ancient world and has stretched unabated into this modern time. Part of the drama has been the invasion of Africa by foreigners and the closing of the ancients schools of knowledge. After these schools were closed, and the teachings banned by the new rulers, many of the learned travelled into new lands and reignited the faith traditions of mysteries in a different name...This history was foretold by the ancient Kemau in the Ausarian tradition...

The fall of Africa into the hands of Set and his people was foretold, the arrival of the mysteries into a new land, among a new people, was foretold, the reestablishment of the Ausarian God system in the ancient cities after the fall of the Setian was foreseen..This new world would come out as khepera arrives..a ball of dung rolling out of the west..

I will not waste much time with those who have not studied, however as I have said for those who have, be advised that there is far more to this than meets the eye..


Kai
quote:
Why Islam you or others may ask? Why not ancient kemetic religion or Ancient West african faiths?

Part of the drama has been the invasion of Africa by foreigners and the closing of the ancients schools of knowledge. After these schools were closed, and the teachings banned by the new rulers, many of the learned travelled into new lands and reignited the faith traditions of mysteries in a different name...This history was foretold by the ancient Kemau in the Ausarian tradition...

The fall of Africa into the hands of Set and his people was foretold, the arrival of the mysteries into a new land, among a new people, was foretold, the reestablishment of the Ausarian God system in the ancient cities after the fall of the Setian was foreseen..This new world would come out as khepera arrives..a ball of dung rolling out of the west..


Since many of the Great Nile Valley mystery school teachers moved West, to WESTERN AFRICA, escaping the invasion of the FOREIGNERS, and set up mystery schools in WEST AFRICA that NEVER HAVE BEEN CLOSED. In fact, you can visit them TODAY... What is your point? You did not discredit anything about returning to our roots with the WEST AFRICAN traditions. In fact, you just made a case for them to be PREFERABLE to that of Islam.

Why would you go with the version of ancient African mystery systems that has been stolen and corrupted through the Arab culture and influence, than the one carried by OUR OWN ANCESTORS?
quote:
This is nothing but the dozens with a few big words...

'Sorry you don't understand my "big words". I'll try to come down to your level.

quote:
Islam if studied will reveal nothing new to the African mystic...If Islam was a continuation of a message which was far more ancient than the last deliverer, then is it possible for the earlier messages to have come out of Africa?

Like I said before, there is absolutely nothing African about Islam !!

One of the defining attributes about African ancestral spirituality is pluralism and tolerance, which is manifest in the multiplicity of ancestral deities through whom we interact with our complex multifaceted creator depending on our circumstance in this life.
There many ways to New York, and you cannot expect someone from Seatle to take the same route to New York as someone in Miami.

Christians and Muslims deride this tolerant pluralism of African spirituality as "polytheism".
Contrast our tolerant African spirituality with the violent intolerance of Islam, and it becomes obvious that we have nothing in common:

"When the sacred months are over, kill the unbelievers wherever you find them" - Quran 9:5

"O believers (Muslims), make war on infidels (non-Muslims) who live around you" - Quran 9:123

"Fighting is obligatory for you (Muslims), even if you dislike it" - Quran 2:216

Futhermore, the concepts of prophethood, hell, devil and other bogus ideas in these phony alien dogmas (Islam, Christianty) are non-existent in African spirituality.

quote:
The Prophet Muhammad freed slaves. Bilal the Abysinnian was one of the first converts..He was a slave freed by Muhammad.

I provided ample evidence and references from Islamic historical traditions, when I asserted the your "prophet" Mo' was a slave dealer.

Islamic historical traditions (Hadith, Sirat & Tabari) document numerous instances of Mo' and his fellow brigands enslaving captives of their numerous attacks (Ghazwa) on non-Muslims (pagan Arabs and Jews), and selling some of them.

If Islam is against slavery, why are there verses in the Quran (Q 23:1-6, 70:29-30, 4:24), endorsing rape of female slaves ?
Your Quran even confirms that your "prophet" Mo' engaged in such repugnant abuse of slave/captive women:

"Prophet (Mohammed), We (Allah) have made lawful to you your wives, your female slaves / captives, your maternal & paternal female cousins, and any other woman who "offers" herself to you" - Quran 33:50

Note that in this verse, your promiscuous philandering "prophet" gives himself a blank check to womanise, but that's not the issue at hand.

Several of Mo's wives were women captives whose husbands he and his fellow bandits killed during their numerous unprovoked attacks to forcibly Islamize non-Muslims. Such forcibly married wives include Safiya, Rayhannah, Juwariyya, Mulayka.
Your prophet raped Mariam, an African slave who bore him his only son (Ibrahim), that died in infancy.

If Islam is against slavery why did this inhuman practice persist for so long among Muslims ?
Saudi Arabia, the home of Islam only abolished slavery in 1962 due to Western pressure.i.e. over 150 years after abolition in the West.
Not to mention the continued enslavement of black Africans by Muslim Arabs in Mauritania and Sudan up till the last decade.
In Darfur, the Muslim Arab occupation is still inflicting horrendous atrocities on Africans, and Black Muslims have been conspicuosly silent on this issue even though the African victims of the ethnic cleansing, Arab Islamo-Nazis are also Muslims.

Here's what your prophet said about runaway slaves:

"When the slave runs away from his master, his prayer is not accepted" - Sahih Muslim 1:131
"The slave who fled from his master committed an act of infidelity as long as he would not return to him" - Sahih Muslim 1:129


As you well know, the penalty for a Muslim who becomes an infidel (apostate) - as your prophet branded runaway slaves - is death.

quote:
Bilal the Abysinnian was one of the first converts..He was a slave freed by Muhammad

I am unimpressed. Bilal was converted and "freed" by Mo' during the early unsuccessful period Mo's prophetic career, when he was desperate for followers. During the 1st 12 years of Mo's bogus prophethood in Mecca, he had only a handful of followers.

Mo' only gathhered numerous followers after he migrated to Medina where raised an army to forcibly convert pagan Arabs:

"I (Mohammed) have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe that) I am the Messenger" - Sahih Muslim 1:31, Bukhari 9:84:59

"Our Prophet Mohammed, ordered us (Muslims) to fight you (non-Muslims) till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission...˜Whoever amongst us is killed...shall go to heaven...and whoever survives shall become your master" - Bukhari 4:53:386


Actually, in spite of Bilal's supposed freedom, Mo' still saw him as a slave, which is why he assigned Bilal the ardous, unenviable job of shouting at the top of his voice (in those days when there were no loudspeakers) five times every day to call all Muslims far & wide to prayer. I had no doubt Bilal would have ended up with some laryngeal disease.
Peace...


quote:
Since many of the Great Nile Valley mystery school teachers moved West, to WESTERN AFRICA, escaping the invasion of the FOREIGNERS, and set up mystery schools in WEST AFRICA that NEVER HAVE BEEN CLOSED. In fact, you can visit them TODAY... What is your point? You did not discredit anything about returning to our roots with the WEST AFRICAN traditions. In fact, you just made a case for them to be PREFERABLE to that of Islam.


It was never my aim to discredit returning to our African roots.

However, since you introduce this point, I will say that our return to the root should not end until we actually find the root theology, and not some place of comfort. The religion of the Yoruba, the Dogon, The Akan, and other West African people cannot be called the ROOT religion of our people. The cosmogeny of all of these groups evidences a commonality which extends from something older.

Within these traditions is the bold admission that they are not the root..However, I most certainly did not start this thread as a way to disparage traditional african faiths, therefore I will not continue along this vein..

The older Kemetic faith tradition, which also admits the existence of an older parent tradition, speaks of the mutilation and separation of the body of Ausar.
This symbolism speaks to the separation of the Ausarian system into diaspora of faiths. None of the parts of the Ausarian religion are the equivalent to the original homogenous system..However, a careful examination will reveal that Auset carried the actual seed of Ausar. She carried this child in secrecy, and gave birth to the Son of the Ausar Man. Heru...

The religion at war in the end time would be the birth child of the Ausarian tradition founded out of a strange land...This is the tradition my sister, and the reason why Islam is raised as it was...The very end of things would come out of the very place where they began..Punt...or Puanit, or Arabia..what the Kemau called the original home of the Gods...Such is the cyclical nature of things...Study further into pert em hru for more instruction on these matters.


I will offer more later...


Kai
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
The older Kemetic faith tradition, which also admits the existence of an older parent tradition,

Kai


Yes...

It is has been documented that the Kemetic civilation was evidence of the end of another civilization...

Egyptian civilization is characterized by the beginning of the dynastic period, but Menes and the kings at Naqada came from a civilization that had already developed hieroglyphics and it is suggested that the great pyramid was built before Khufu (he never claimed to have built it, just repaired it)... and it is clearly not a coffin...

there are many speculative and circumstancial evidences that suggest a superior culture that Egypt derived from...

in fact some say....

that the dynastic periods of Egyptian culture and civilization and even before was at the end of the fall of a greater older and superior civilization
Peace....


quote:
'Sorry you don't understand my "big words". I'll try to come down to your level.


You failed to understand my point as it relates to the dozens..You see my friend, the dozens is a child's game, it is basically name calling, I was implying that you were actually behaving like a child while hiding behind adult words. I fully comprehend the meaning of yur statements, I also understand the fact that they poorly mask your real intent and hatred.

quote:
Like I said before, there is absolutely nothing African about Islam !!


Really??? What about the idea of Allah? Tawheed? The Oneness God? Is not the idea of a sole Creator of the heavens and the earth who has eternally existed an African idea?
Say: He is Allah the One and Only;
Allah the Eternal Absolute;
He begets not nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him (112:1-4).


What of the idea of Divine revelation and Inspiration? Is this not the property of the African as well?

What of the idea that men should pray to the One God and serve none other?

What of the rejection of Shaitan? Is this not African?

You see Naf, you are too used to arguing with Arabs..I am not one who confuses the simplicity of the Message of Islam with Arabic History and Culture..This recent history, and culture, is what the people of Kemet describe as the dung surrounding the seed of Khepri. Study up on it Sonny...

This means that at the end of a cycle, and the beginning of a new cycle of knowledge, the regenaration of the ausarian principle arises out of something which appears as low and filthy, however within it, is the seed of the new world. Islam was carried or rolled out of the east by the Scarab or Arab, however when it was planted on the mind of the intended target it fertilized the once dormant mind and became the catalyst for the birth of a beautiful African nation of righteousness which was reminiscent of it's Anrediluvian lineage. This Civilization was the Civilization of the Moors..The Nation Of islam in the east.

quote:
Islamic historical traditions (Hadith, Sirat & Tabari) document numerous instances of Mo' and his fellow brigands enslaving captives of their numerous attacks (Ghazwa) on non-Muslims (pagan Arabs and Jews), and selling some of them.


Your disrespect and slander is noted.

Muhammad like any General took captives, however, history records the great mercy, and humanity of the Armies under the leadership of Muhammad. The muslims were known to leave exisiting governments in place, and no, people like you lie when they say that the muslims forced conversion on everyone..Islam was at war with Polytheism, however Muhammad was a friend of the Christian Kingdom of Kush, and he also was in good standing with sections of the jewish community. Muslims lived side by side with other Monotheist in peace, and did not begin to invade foreign lands until it was determined that time dictated the removal of polytheism wherever it was found...The invasion and foolhardy destruction of ancient African cities was a blunder committed because the Arab had just come out of spiritual and academic darkness, the Kemetic idea was far beyond what they could comprehend at the time, they made the mistake of believing that the Kemau were polytheists...However, believe it or not, the invasion of the Arab did more to preserve the mysteries than anything else...But we will discuss this separately if you wish...


quote:
Your Quran even confirms that your "prophet" Mo' engaged in such repugnant abuse of slave/captive women:

"Prophet (Mohammed), We (Allah) have made lawful to you your wives, your female slaves / captives, your maternal & paternal female cousins, and any other woman who "offers" herself to you" - Quran 33:50



The Qur'an and traditional African culture allow polygamy. A man is allowed intimacy with all of the women of his house. A house is more than a structure. All women under his care are allowed to him...If you have a problem with Polygamy start a thread. As to the mistreatment, please show where the Qur'an describes this..

quote:
Several of Mo's wives were women captives whose husbands he and his fellow bandits killed during their numerous unprovoked attacks to forcibly Islamize non-Muslims. Such forcibly married wives include Safiya, Rayhannah, Juwariyya, Mulayka.
Your prophet raped Mariam, an African slave who bore him his only son (Ibrahim), that died in infancy.


None of the wives of the Prophet were forced into marraige> Some of his wives were taken to quash rivalry between groups, or to strengthen the unity of Kingdoms. Miriam was a coptic woman and belonged to the Kingdom which was an ally of the Muslims...

Naf are you used to getting this crap by others???

quote:
If Islam is against slavery why did this inhuman practice persist for so long among Muslims ?


This question is stupid.

If Physics is against objects falling without suffering damage why do so many physicists intentionally fall down?

The actions of one who calls himself a "muslim" is not a credible calim against the religion itself...Think about this and realize that you are not talking to one of those Sunnis you are used to dealing with.

Why don't you go to Ummah.com with this crap..They would love you there...


quote:
Actually, in spite of Bilal's supposed freedom, Mo' still saw him as a slave, which is why he assigned Bilal the ardous, unenviable job of shouting at the top of his voice (in those days when there were no loudspeakers) five times every day to call all Muslims far & wide to prayer. I had no doubt Bilal would have ended up with some laryngeal disease.


Bilal began the Ahdan on his own...The "Fard"(mandatory or Obligatory) prostration was called out by a black ex-slave. This was all very symbolic of the reality that in the end the Black ex-slave would rise above the people and call out in the name of Wali Fard Muhammad. The Prophet(pbuh) spo to this when he said that the nation Of Islam should follow the one to come behind him even if they have dark skin, and hair like raisins..he was preparing them through Bilal for coming to the call of a Black ex-slave who would unite the entire muslim world by the beauty of his call, submission, and restoration.

Naf, I do not intend to chase behind you to keep cleaning up lies...

Just stop lying...


Kai
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace...


quote:
Since many of the Great Nile Valley mystery school teachers moved West, to WESTERN AFRICA, escaping the invasion of the FOREIGNERS, and set up mystery schools in WEST AFRICA that NEVER HAVE BEEN CLOSED. In fact, you can visit them TODAY... What is your point? You did not discredit anything about returning to our roots with the WEST AFRICAN traditions. In fact, you just made a case for them to be PREFERABLE to that of Islam.


It was never my aim to discredit returning to our African roots.

However, since you introduce this point, I will say that our return to the root should not end until we actually find the root theology, and not some place of comfort. The religion of the Yoruba, the Dogon, The Akan, and other West African people cannot be called the ROOT religion of our people. The cosmogeny of all of these groups evidences a commonality which extends from something older.


ISLAM, held by one of Africas oppressors is closer the the original?

Just to let you know Sarceren. I started with the Nation moved on to the Ausar Auset society and then Ifa... A lot of the time you post long lists of information I already am already quite familia with. I know this is sometimes for the benefit of others, but I think sometimes you really think I am ignorant of this KeMeTic info. I'm actually probably more well versed on the KeMeTic info than Ifa at this point since I studied it for longer.

quote:
Within these traditions is the bold admission that they are not the root..However, I most certainly did not start this thread as a way to disparage traditional african faiths, therefore I will not continue along this vein..


You didn't start it for that purpose I know, but you did say...

quote:
"Why Islam you or others may ask? Why not ancient kemetic religion or Ancient West african faiths?"


Your literal NOI influenced re-interpretation of Ausarian mythos, placing the predicessor of KMT in Arabia doesn't coincide with any KeMeTic historical infornation I have studied... Or with what the Kamau said.

quote:
Part of the drama has been the invasion of Africa by foreigners and the closing of the ancients schools of knowledge. After these schools were closed, and the teachings banned by the new rulers, many of the learned travelled into new lands and reignited the faith traditions of mysteries in a different name...This history was foretold by the ancient Kemau in the Ausarian tradition..."


What I am asking is why is the product of the learned that travelled to foreign lands and set up teachings, that have had the cultural footprint of foreign oppressors for some time now, prefferable to that of the learned that moved Southwest among our own people? The literal NOI re-interpretation of an Ausarian mythos is a weird reason to circumvent cultual/historical logic.

quote:
The older Kemetic faith tradition, which also admits the existence of an older parent tradition, speaks of the mutilation and separation of the body of Ausar.
This symbolism speaks to the separation of the Ausarian system into diaspora of faiths. None of the parts of the Ausarian religion are the equivalent to the original homogenous system..However, a careful examination will reveal that Auset carried the actual seed of Ausar. She carried this child in secrecy, and gave birth to the Son of the Ausar Man. Heru...


I am very much aware of the fact the Kamau stated they recieved their teachings from previous civilizations 'up the Nile'(South, nowadays in to the Great Lakes region interior of Africa) Instead of interpreting the Ausarian myth literally, lets deal with the Goddess(devine feminne) principle that Auset represents. The goddess/devine/sacred feminine is demonized/absent in the Q'uaran and ins Islamic/Arabic culture and teachings(as it is in the ABrahamic traditions in general. If the return is through the mother, how do you do that with an absentee one?

quote:
The religion at war in the end time would be the birth child of the Ausarian tradition founded out of a strange land...This is the tradition my sister, and the reason why Islam is raised as it was...The very end of things would come out of the very place where they began..Punt...or Puanit, or Arabia..


They began out from 'Up the Nile' the Nile flows what is today North from the interior of Africa. Africa is the beginning, not Arabia. Every time the Kamau had invasions from the Asiatics they reached for help from their brothers from the South. Before you go their, I understand that in ancient times the Arabian peninsula and most of SouthWest Asia were populated by Africa people, but that is no longer the case, and Islam did not come from these ancients, but from the Asiatic invaders who took over the land.

"what the Kemau called the original home of the Gods...Such is the cyclical nature of things...Study further into pert em hru for more instruction on these matters."

I have, and have somehow came up with a different 'origin' than Arabia via most of the scholars I have come across(like Dr. Ben)....Strange how the NOI version of the KeMeTic origin is the same place the Arab culture is from... I wonder what created that coincidence? Pretty convenient.

quote:
I will offer more later...


Kai


You don't have to. Logic, not literal NOI slanted re-interpretation of myth is what I was looking for as an explanation of the prefference for Islam(the deification of Arab culture) . But I see that is not where this convo is headed.

I love my NOI brothers and sisters, and will organize with them reguardless, but the insistance upon validating Islam with total disreguard to cultural/historical logic, instead of just dealing with Africa baffles me(well not really)!
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quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Logic, not literal NOI slanted re-interpretation of myth is what I was looking for as an explanation of the prefference for Islam(the deification of Arab culture) .


Hmmm.... please pardon my interruption...

but OshunAuset are you a student of Ra Un Nefer Amen?


No parden needed,

I have been in the past. BUT I discovered many a contradiction that didn't sit well with me. Like the fact he was a disgruntled Ifa Babalawo before starting the Ausar Auset society. And to hide this fact, instead of using the Ifa divination system he picked the I Ching. Once again, why would you go with the non African version? I can go on but I don't want to talk bad about him because he does so much good...

Something I have learned over the years is that many scholars who then begin their own religious organizations take advantage of their members who believe everything they say/teach largely because they simply don't/didn't have access to the same amount of information, and are constantly playing catch up with the founder/teachings. These people usually have grown emotionally attatched to a particular organization/doctrine, and don't want to admit any flaws or false/errored teachings, even if they do come across some within their chosen 'beloved' org. Once most followers are committed, they tend to rationalize or change/incorporate new sometimes contradictory info to support the believed doctrine. Even if such evidence actually would actually demand a change in the original doctrine(back to an orginial African one usually). Dr. Yorks crew(Nuwabian) would be the extreme example of this IMO.

I trust the historical academics of Dr. Ben to a far greater degree than Ra Un Nefer Amen when it comes to KMT. Ben demonstrated his willingness to assimilate new information into his histrical annalysis and admit error in the past statements he made largely because he had no doctrine he adheared to.(He wasn't the founder/adherent of any religious org.)

I also trust the teachings directly from Africa and an unbroken chain of African people (and our ancestors), over any organization that came to rise out of a Western conditioning/circumstances and/or Afrocentrist intelligencia dominated by Western diasporan scholorship.

Here is a good link that explains the further why I have come to this...

http://oyansoro.com/07_06/Articles/Authority.html

I have great respect for the NOI and the Ausar Auset Society, but I've moved on home in my worldview.

That being said, after reading more of Naf's posts, I take back my flowers... I just like that particular post of his...
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Also, I asked this a long time ago on another thread and never got a reply...

What divination system does the NOI use? And how are the ancestors venerated and elevation within the NOI? I've noticed some things have changed since I was a member and was wondering if these two things have also been incorporated nowadays.

Oh, and just so it is clear, I am a member of Ile Omo Ifa Wale. 'The house of those who have returned to Ifa.' It is part of a larger Egbe that is directly initiated into the Egungun society and Amusan clan in Ile Ife, Osun State, Nigeria.
Last edited {1}
Peace....


quote:
ISLAM, held by one of Africas oppressors is closer the the original?


Islam as purely a religious ideology is the very same belief which was held by our ancient people in Africa. Islam simply means Active peace. The practice of the religion may have been corrupted by the Arab, however the belief itself is the "ole time" root religion of our people. The core concept is shared by Those who belive in Amun, Ra, Ausar, Oludumare, Shango, Nommo, Auset, Babaluaye, Imana, Kalumba, Obatala, Mawu-Lisa, Oshun, Faro, Amma, Oboadee, Nyame, Unkulunkulu, Asa, Chuku, Kaang, Minona, Neit, Nut, Djhuti, Seshat, Khepera, Atum, and the list goes on...

African scholars, including the Great Dr. Yosef Ben Jochanan agree that not only do the religions of the West orrow from Africa, but that they were developed in Africa. In the ground breaking work, "African Origin of Major Western Religion" Dr. Ben says the following:

"I shall show that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are as much African as they are Asian in origin, and in no sense what-so-ever European as the title, "Western Religions" suggests;" Dr. Ben's ultimate goal in this work is to show the definite links between exclusively indigenous traditional African religions with these so-called "Western Religions.

Dr Ben call these religions "so called western" because they were not developed by the West, they were simply borrowed...They were willfully loaned to the west.


Our people sister Oshun, us, our Ancestors, intentionally fed our spirituality to the very same people who would later defile us...They did this on purpose in Kemet, in Indus Kush, In Amexem, In Ta-Seti, In Puanit, and in the Twa land of Europa.

We gave them this, they corrupted it in practice..Yes, however, there is a breech between the subjective idea of a thing, and the objective or phenomenal action of it. Islam is an idea which stretches from a clean, ancient spring in the sublime world. Islam was placed under the Stewarship of the Arab for a time for a very mighty purpose...But, that isn't the subject here..I simply want you to think about this...



The (Sc)arab is used to gather dung. it rolls the excrement into balls and buries it. The balls are implanted with the seed of regeneration. After a prescribed time, the life living in the dung comes forth. The Kemau saw this as the process of the Rising Sun associated with the Deity Khepri, however also represernting the death of Ausar, and the remanfestation of his Will through Heru.

Dear Sister you are repulsed by our Beetle, or (Sc)arab, which took our civilization, our beautiful land. They took it, filled it with dung that smells, they buried our wisdom our beauty and knowledge, and now they sit on it...However, within all of this is buried the seed of our renewal.

quote:
Just to let you know Sarceren. I started with the Nation moved on to the Ausar Auset society and then Ifa... A lot of the time you post long lists of information I already am already quite familia with. I know this is sometimes for the benefit of others, but I think sometimes you really think I am ignorant of this KeMeTic info. I'm actually probably more well versed on the KeMeTic info than Ifa at this point since I studied it for longer


I am aware that you are studied Sister...If you were not, I do not think I would proceed as I have.


quote:
Your literal NOI influenced re-interpretation of Ausarian mythos, placing the predicessor of KMT in Arabia doesn't coincide with any KeMeTic historical infornation I have studied... Or with what the Kamau said.


Sister, perhaps you are unfamiliar with Ta-Netjer, "Land Of the Gods" according to the people of KMT, this land was called "Pwn't" and is said to be a land stretching from Arabia into Somalia . This is the birthplace of the Nile valley Civilization by the accounts of the Kemau. It is reported that expeditions by ship were sent into the land of Punt by Queen Hapshepsut to gather spices, Myrrh, and other refinement tools. According to the report the people of Punt were black Africans, and resembled the people of Kemet. The production of frankincese and Myrrh was exclusive to the region of Southern Arabia and Soamila at this time, however we know that a Ship ride would not have been necessary for the travel from Egypt to Somalia. The land of Puaint, Home of the Gods, was Arabia. For further reference see the records on this subject gathered from the Palermo stone.

quote:
What I am asking is why is the product of the learned that travelled to foreign lands and set up teachings, that have had the cultural footprint of foreign oppressors for some time now, prefferable to that of the learned that moved Southwest among our own people? The literal NOI re-interpretation of an Ausarian mythos is a weird reason to circumvent cultual/historical logic.



Because sister, the fall of the African world was no accident in history. We give the Tamhu far too much credit for our demise. We ruled the Caucasian hordes for thousands of years. We gathered them together, annexed them, enslaved them and experimented with them at our leisure. At a certain point in time we began to teach them, and then unleash them upon our own world. In the history of kemet you will find a figure named Ozar Sef. Men-Tehuti, or Manetho, the Kemetic scribe describes his mission as going into the West lands and raising an Army which would return to invade kemet. This Man Ozar Sef is an initiate out of the kemetic school.

Why do I raise this?? Because we actually aided or coconspired against our own world for a purpose which was to usheer in an age of spiritual darkness. This darkness and the subjection of our people to the wilds of the Setian Tamhu people was part of the Drama which we is integral in our African Cosmology. This wicked cleansing of the east was to be followed by the Impregnation of wife of the Ausarian mind, and the Birth of a new expression of that Mind. This birth would herald the return of Ausar in the person of His Son. We can no longer look back..We are past that..Ausar is dead and buried...however, his mind was impregnated into the mysteries, and secret transmitted over time until it could be revealed in the light again..Studying history, the events which have led to our predicament in America clearly demonstrates the path that Auset travelled in the world of the Mysteries..It clearly demonstrates that Islam is in fact the New expression of an ancient way...In order to see this, you have to look broadly at history and the events therein to see the pattern which led to the deliverance of a message to the dung rolling people you despise so much.

The message of Islam was not for the Pale Arab...they are just the handler of it..

quote:
I am very much aware of the fact the Kamau stated they recieved their teachings from previous civilizations 'up the Nile'(South, nowadays in to the Great Lakes region interior of Africa) Instead of interpreting the Ausarian myth literally, lets deal with the Goddess(devine feminne) principle that Auset represents. The goddess/devine/sacred feminine is demonized/absent in the Q'uaran and ins Islamic/Arabic culture and teachings(as it is in the ABrahamic traditions in general. If the return is through the mother, how do you do that with an absentee one?



Sister Oshun, any student of kemetic thought must make literal what arises out of Paut Neteru. The kemetic system is designed to shed light on the operation of all things in the phenomenal world including events. I think this is a mistake that many make in studying kemet. The Tree of Life as represented by Ra Un Nefer Amen describes a system which could be called "Subjective to Objective manifestation physics".

As to your claim regarding the Feminine in Islam, allow me to point you to the idea within the Qur'an which describes the creation of the male and female from a single essence (Qur'an 4:1). There is no superiority of the Man over the womb which gave rise to his form. The Qur'an speaks to a man's role as leader of a house, and alos the leader of a community, however, this is exactly what we are taught in the Ausarian story. Auset did not rule Ausar, Maat or Seshat did not rule Dejhuti. The male drive in this plane places him in a role of action, which means that as the active agent he must lead into the future.
If the actor doesn't act, nothing will happen...This idea of gender roles is not unique to islam...I will not speak of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad's statements as it relates to Allah creating Himself out of the Feminine womb of Space since you asked about the Arab view...(smile)...

quote:
They began out from 'Up the Nile' the Nile flows what is today North from the interior of Africa. Africa is the beginning, not Arabia. Every time the Kamau had invasions from the Asiatics they reached for help from their brothers from the South. Before you go their, I understand that in ancient times the Arabian peninsula and most of SouthWest Asia were populated by Africa people, but that is no longer the case, and Islam did not come from these ancients, but from the Asiatic invaders who took over the land.


Once again, you are not just debating me sister, You are also debating Dr. Ben who said Islam was very much an African construct and was heavily influneced by the presence of the African Bilal. Islam did come from the ancients...We gave it to the people you despise...
This is why the hadith of Muhammad describes the Angel Jabreel, who transmitted the Message to Muhammad as a Man, a black man...

The Qur'an says 'This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as your religion Islam." (Quran, Surah [5:3])

the revelation of the Qur'an to an unlearned Bedouin Arab, was only a sign to those who the message was truly meant for. The Qur'an says that Allah completed His favor...Something was being finalized through this message...the Arab is a new people, a homogenized black and aryan people..The favor was not their favor, this was their first look at the religion which we have always had..It was our message, Allah's favor to us, our completion...The end of one cycle, and the ushering in of a new one by the power of Allah's Will..The Will being what the kemau described as Heru.

quote:
You don't have to. Logic, not literal NOI slanted re-interpretation of myth is what I was looking for as an explanation of the prefference for Islam(the deification of Arab culture) . But I see that is not where this convo is headed.


Sister Oshun, you should not allow yourself to be limited like that. The logic of denouncing Islam due to the behaviour of Arabs or even because it was delvered through an Arab is flawed. One because our own tradition predicts the rise of the ausarian principle out of aforeign mouth, and two becasue you cannot judge an idea by it's carrier. The truth of a thing is completely independant of the one who speaks it...Perhaps you can despise someone so much that you do not want to hear anything that they say..I would say that I may not believe something on the basis of a person's character and history, however, if I find a vagabond, telling me secrets to how to unlock the treasures of creation, and he says things which I know only a select few have ever known, and he begins to tell me that he was sent by my God to give me this message, you damn well better belive that I am gonna give this homel;ess guy an ear..I may offer him clean clothes, and a bath, however, i will not allow his wretchedness to distract me from the message he was given for me...

quote:
I love my NOI brothers and sisters, and will organize with them reguardless, but the insistance upon validating Islam with total disreguard to cultural/historical logic, instead of just dealing with Africa baffles me(well not really)!




You have to study a little more sister...



Kai
Peace and Blessings OshunAuset....


quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
No parden needed,

I have been in the past.


As was I...

We share this in common....

quote:
BUT I discovered many a contradiction that didn't sit well with me.


I found a few contradictions but nothing to discredit the overall purpose of his message... I found that his understanding of the tree of life took me only so far... I needed to go further....

But... his explanation of spiritual growth (which is what attracted me to Metu Neter II) is the primary reason for my study of Ra Un Nefer....

quote:
Like the fact he was a disgruntled Ifa Babalawo before starting the Ausar Auset society.


From reading his writings I suspect that subscribing to Ifa... was not his only background... his wisdom seems to stem from a variety of sources...

quote:
And to hide this fact, instead of using the Ifa divination system he picked the I Ching. Once again, why would you go with the non African version? I can go on but I don't want to talk bad about him because he does so much good...


Is not the I Ching and Ifa diviniation similar in purpose?

quote:
Something I have learned over the years is that many scholars who then begin their own religious organizations take advantage of their members who believe everything they say/teach largely because they simply don't/didn't have access to the same amount of information, and are constantly playing catch up with the founder/teachings. These people usually have grown emotionally attatched to a particular organization/doctrine, and don't want to admit any flaws or false/errored teachings, even if they do come across some within their chosen 'beloved' org. Once most followers are committed, they tend to rationalize or change/incorporate new sometimes contradictory info to support the believed doctrine. Even if such evidence actually would actually demand a change in the original doctrine(back to an orginial African one usually). Dr. Yorks crew(Nuwabian) would be the extreme example of this IMO.


Yes... this is true with every path.... you will find sheisty individuals among all people... you will find spiritual and intellectually lazy among all people and paths... the important thing is to analyze the path itself and how effective it is in bringing about spiritual transformation... Lest we began to lose out on wisdom because our focus remains on those who do not understand it properly...

quote:
I trust the historical academics of Dr. Ben to a far greater degree than Ra Un Nefer Amen when it comes to KMT. Ben demonstrated his willingness to assimilate new information into his histrical annalysis and admit error in the past statements he made largely because he had no doctrine he adheared to.(He wasn't the founder/adherent of any religious org.)


Spirituality and History both have a place with me... I do not begrudge a man's wisdom because he has people who follow his message, especially if it is one that helps to bring them out of despair... The study of history fleshes out our understanding of the development and formation of our present reality...

but in both, the message will always be colored somewhat by the presenter.. nothing escapes this... the important thing for one receiving a message is to focus on the message itself... and discern its relevance...

We, who are the original people of this planet have never lost our leanings.. we simply needed to be reminded of them... in a way that is sufficient and in a way that is gradual...

changing habits including habits of mind and spirit, if one is to retain their essentials as a firm foundation within.... the change must take place gradually...

quote:
I also trust the teachings directly from Africa and an unbroken chain of African people (and our ancestors), over any organization that came to rise out of a Western conditioning/circumstances and/or Afrocentrist intelligencia dominated by Western diasporan scholorship.



Africa has not escaped influence by the West.... our belief systems have flourished through a culture that has striven to maintain itself after the subordination of its power.... it is couched in ritual.... but the rituals themselves are not the point..... it is couched in writings but who writes it is not the point... but the principles themselves are what is important... We must become enlighened enough to not reject truth wherever it is to be found...

I am not Christian... but I defer to what is true in the Bible of principle and allow my mind to be inspired but what stimulates its leanings towards righteousness.... though I have a general disdain for the Bible and its author....

We are a people who will constantly be at war within we must be able to master the complex reality of recognizing "hidden truths"... because we no longer live in a world we control... that reflects our unique way of expressing it.... we are in different parts of the earth...

and must do what we must.... in this there is a lesson...

great is he who can maintain their peace in a state of war... it is she who can discern the truth.... and discern the right path in the midst of chaos... under this trial do we often find our true understanding of a thing.... we become elevated somewhat from initiate towards the path of mastery....

Our people here in North America were subjugated under the foot of white folx for over 400 years.... Our family in Africa never came for us... and we were unable to leave to find them....

However, what was brought to a people that had been heavily influenced by and shaped up under their enemy was a doctrine that was palatable to our senses and easily received.... a path that gradually directed us out of the mind and thinking of our oppressor... A path specifically tailored for us....

Our elders who practice Ifa did not come...

A Muslim did...



quote:
Here is a good link that explains the further why I have come to this...

http://oyansoro.com/07_06/Articles/Authority.html


Thank you I promise to read it....

quote:
I have great respect for the NOI and the Ausar Auset Society, but I've moved on home in my worldview.

That being said, after reading more of Naf's posts, I take back my flowers... I just like that particular post of his...


I don't particularly like the way Naf thinks.... I am not averse to those who disagree.... as long as their positions are formulated from more than emotional ire...

he just mad... he'll be aight...
I truly want to thank the participants in this thread for your contributions and encourage you, each, to continue. I am especially appreciative when you post links to undergird your position/thought, rather than merely provide declarative statements.

I keep coming back, so that I can digest/attempt to understand it a little bit at a time.

Keep it up. tfro
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
I truly want to thank the participants in this thread for your contributions and encourage you, each, to continue. I am especially appreciative when you post links to undergird your position/thought, rather than merely provide declarative statements.

I keep coming back, so that I can digest/attempt to understand it a little bit at a time.

Keep it up. tfro


Kweli,

What do you mean?

Declarative statements are a person's opinion... are you suggesting that opinions must be backed by the statements of accepted scholars?

I am unclear...
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace....


quote:
ISLAM, held by one of Africas oppressors is closer the the original?


Islam as purely a religious ideology is the very same belief which was held by our ancient people in Africa. Islam simply means Active peace. The practice of the religion may have been corrupted by the Arab, however the belief itself is the "ole time" root religion of our people. The core concept is shared by Those who belive in Amun, Ra, Ausar, Oludumare, Shango, Nommo, Auset, Babaluaye, Imana, Kalumba, Obatala, Mawu-Lisa, Oshun, Faro, Amma, Oboadee, Nyame, Unkulunkulu, Asa, Chuku, Kaang, Minona, Neit, Nut, Djhuti, Seshat, Khepera, Atum, and the list goes on...


How do you filter out all of the Arabic corruption, and why would one bother when there are plenty of uncorrupted or minimally corrupted African 'versions'?

quote:

African scholars, including the Great Dr. Yosef Ben Jochanan agree that not only do the religions of the West borrow from Africa, but that they were developed in Africa. In the ground breaking work, "African Origin of Major Western Religion" Dr. Ben says the following:

"I shall show that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are as much African as they are Asian in origin, and in no sense what-so-ever European as the title, "Western Religions" suggests;" Dr. Ben's ultimate goal in this work is to show the definite links between exclusively indigenous traditional African religions with these so-called "Western Religions.

Dr Ben call these religions "so called western" because they were not developed by the West, they were simply borrowed...They were willfully loaned to the west.


Dr. Ben also has stated(when I have seen him in person)
he doesn't understand why the children of Africa re-borrow borrowed and corrupted versions of our own spiritual systems. I have seen him argue down plenty of Muslims about Islam. Yes, the root is borrowed from Africa, Yes much of their development took place in Africa, that is a given, but the corruption(deification of foreign/invader cultures by the reinterpretation of the ORIGINAL myths is quite deep).

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Our people sister Oshun, us, our Ancestors, intentionally fed our spirituality to the very same people who would later defile us...They did this on purpose in Kemet, in Indus Kush, In Amexem, In Ta-Seti, In Puanit, and in the Twa land of Europa.

We gave them this, they corrupted it in practice..Yes, however, there is a breech between the subjective idea of a thing, and the objective or phenomenal action of it. Islam is an idea which stretches from a clean, ancient spring in the sublime world. Islam was placed under the Stewarship of the Arab for a time for a very mighty purpose...But, that isn't the subject here..I simply want you to think about this...


This is where we disagree. I do not literalize spiritually transformative myths that are symbolized by cellestial and terrestrial events and apply them to literal history.

quote:


The (Sc)arab is used to gather dung. it rolls the excrement into balls and buries it. The balls are implanted with the seed of regeneration. After a prescribed time, the life living in the dung comes forth. The Kemau saw this as the process of the Rising Sun associated with the Deity Khepri, however also represernting the death of Ausar, and the remanfestation of his Will through Heru.

Dear Sister you are repulsed by our Beetle, or (Sc)arab, which took our civilization, our beautiful land. They took it, filled it with dung that smells, they buried our wisdom our beauty and knowledge, and now they sit on it...However, within all of this is buried the seed of our renewal.


I am not repulsed by the Scarab. I do not apply the natural cyclical myth of the Scarab to the literal 'Arab'. That is the constant literalizing of myth that is done by our people(and the masses in general when it comes to religious myth) that I do not agree with. That is what people do with the Bible stories, then they miss the entire point of the symbolism. IMO applying the Arab to the scarab minimizes the symbolism of the cyclical nature of the scarab greatly. Please give a refference of what caused you to come to the conclusion that the scarab represents the Arab, or is that just an allegorical connection you are making for the sake of conversation via the spelling coincidence?

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Just to let you know Sarceren. I started with the Nation moved on to the Ausar Auset society and then Ifa... A lot of the time you post long lists of information I already am already quite familia with. I know this is sometimes for the benefit of others, but I think sometimes you really think I am ignorant of this KeMeTic info. I'm actually probably more well versed on the KeMeTic info than Ifa at this point since I studied it for longer


I am aware that you are studied Sister...If you were not, I do not think I would proceed as I have.


Ok... I feel a 'but' coming on...


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quote:
Your literal NOI influenced re-interpretation of Ausarian mythos, placing the predicessor of KMT in Arabia doesn't coincide with any KeMeTic historical infornation I have studied... Or with what the Kamau said.


Sister, perhaps you are unfamiliar with Ta-Netjer, "Land Of the Gods" according to the people of KMT, this land was called "Pwn't" and is said to be a land stretching from Arabia into Somalia. This is the birthplace of the Nile valley Civilization by the accounts of the Kemau. It is reported that expeditions by ship were sent into the land of Punt by Queen Hapshepsut to gather spices, Myrrh, and other refinement tools. According to the report the people of Punt were black Africans, and resembled the people of Kemet. The production of frankincese and Myrrh was exclusive to the region of Southern Arabia and Soamila at this time, however we know that a Ship ride would not have been necessary for the travel from Egypt to Somalia. The land of Puaint, Home of the Gods, was Arabia. For further reference see the records on this subject gathered from the Palermo stone.


I have read of this, BUT their are also records that the Kamau said that their entire civilization was borrowed from an earlier people 'up the Nile' into the interior aof Africa and that the Twa(deified by Bes) were the people they borrowed their cosmonology from. There are many accounts of origins of the KeMeTic civilization, just like their are many creation stories ect. because they are not supposed to be taken literally Thise particualr origin account I am referring too also coincides with the path of Humanity accounted for in science, from the interior of Africa(the Great Lakes Region) down(what is now 'up') the Nile. Dr. Ben and Ashra Kwesi(his student) both agree with this as the origin of the KeMeTic civilization, not Arabia. And... I also noticed that the "Somalia" reference(Horn of Africa) seems to be removed or minimized as the actual land of Punt... Why is the Arabia location preferred over the Somalia location? Why is one KeMeTic origin story preferred/hilighted over the myriad of others(and it just so happens to be the one referring to Arabia)? ...hhhmmm.

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What I am asking is why is the product of the learned that travelled to foreign lands and set up teachings, that have had the cultural footprint of foreign oppressors for some time now, prefferable to that of the learned that moved Southwest among our own people? The literal NOI re-interpretation of an Ausarian mythos is a weird reason to circumvent cultual/historical logic.


Because sister, the fall of the African world was no accident in history. We give the Tamhu far too much credit for our demise. We ruled the Caucasian hordes for thousands of years. We gathered them together, annexed them, enslaved them and experimented with them at our leisure. At a certain point in time we began to teach them, and then unleash them upon our own world. In the history of kemet you will find a figure named Ozar Sef. Men-Tehuti, or Manetho, the Kemetic scribe describes his mission as going into the West lands and raising an Army which would return to invade kemet. This Man Ozar Sef is an initiate out of the kemetic school.

Why do I raise this?? Because we actually aided or coconspired against our own world for a purpose which was to usheer in an age of spiritual darkness. This darkness and the subjection of our people to the wilds of the Setian Tamhu people was part of the Drama which we is integral in our African Cosmology. This wicked cleansing of the east was to be followed by the Impregnation of wife of the Ausarian mind, and the Birth of a new expression of that Mind. This birth would herald the return of Ausar in the person of His Son. We can no longer look back..We are past that..Ausar is dead and buried...however, his mind was impregnated into the mysteries, and secret transmitted over time until it could be revealed in the light again..Studying history, the events which have led to our predicament in America clearly demonstrates the path that Auset travelled in the world of the Mysteries..It clearly demonstrates that Islam is in fact the New expression of an ancient way...In order to see this, you have to look broadly at history and the events therein to see the pattern which led to the deliverance of a message to the dung rolling people you despise so much.


Some more literal/historical interpretations of ancient myths that were never meant to be taken as such. This reminds me of how the Rastafarians and Hebrew Isrealites 'believe' that it was prophesied we were goiong to be brought over here in chains via their literalizing of Biblical Old Testament myth and it's application to our current circumstances.

I see this as a pshychological validation of African ties to the Biblical(a.k.a Judeo-X-tian/Euro-centric) worldview. In other words, although it is a much healthier mis-interpretation, mis-application, and literlizing of myth than the Average African X-tianity in the West, it is still reactionary, and not coming from pride of one's people(deification of OUR culture) independent of some link to the religion(and therefore validation) of our oppressor(s).

quote:
The message of Islam was not for the Pale Arab...they are just the handler of it...


And much like airport security asks. "Has this package been in your hands the entire time? Can you verify that it has not been in unknown hands since the time you packed it?" I don't trust message carriers, that obviousely demonstrated through history that they have a hostile relationship with my people, to not corrupt the ORIGINAL message.


quote:
quote:
I am very much aware of the fact the Kamau stated they recieved their teachings from previous civilizations 'up the Nile'(South, nowadays in to the Great Lakes region interior of Africa) Instead of interpreting the Ausarian myth literally, lets deal with the Goddess(devine feminne) principle that Auset represents. The goddess/devine/sacred feminine is demonized/absent in the Q'uaran and ins Islamic/Arabic culture and teachings(as it is in the ABrahamic traditions in general. If the return is through the mother, how do you do that with an absentee one?



Sister Oshun, any student of kemetic thought must make literal what arises out of Paut Neteru. The kemetic system is designed to shed light on the operation of all things in the phenomenal world including events. I think this is a mistake that many make in studying kemet. The Tree of Life as represented by Ra Un Nefer Amen describes a system which could be called "Subjective to Objective manifestation physics".


Literalization of myth is paganism and is largely the problem with the way the masses practice all religions today. Taking literal, spiritually transformation represented by natural symbolism(cellestial and terrestrial) myth is strictly forbidden by the initiated.

quote:
As to your claim regarding the Feminine in Islam, allow me to point you to the idea within the Qur'an which describes the creation of the male and female from a single essence (Qur'an 4:1). There is no superiority of the Man over the womb which gave rise to his form. The Qur'an speaks to a man's role as leader of a house, and alos the leader of a community, however, this is exactly what we are taught in the Ausarian story. Auset did not rule Ausar, Maat or Seshat did not rule Dejhuti. The male drive in this plane places him in a role of action, which means that as the active agent he must lead into the future.
If the actor doesn't act, nothing will happen...This idea of gender roles is not unique to islam...I will not speak of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad's statements as it relates to Allah creating Himself out of the Feminine womb of Space since you asked about the Arab view...(smile)...


How do you account for the clearly mysogenistic tale of the Queen of Sheba in the Qur'an, which is the demonizing of the devine feminine and replacement of African matriarchy and matrilineal systems(Sheba) by the conquoring patriarchal Indo-European invaders? The Qur'an's version is even more mysogenistic than the Biblical one.

quote:
quote:
They began out from 'Up the Nile' the Nile flows what is today North from the interior of Africa. Africa is the beginning, not Arabia. Every time the Kamau had invasions from the Asiatics they reached for help from their brothers from the South. Before you go their, I understand that in ancient times the Arabian peninsula and most of SouthWest Asia were populated by Africa people, but that is no longer the case, and Islam did not come from these ancients, but from the Asiatic invaders who took over the land.


Once again, you are not just debating me sister, You are also debating Dr. Ben who said Islam was very much an African construct and was heavily influneced by the presence of the African Bilal. Islam did come from the ancients...We gave it to the people you despise...
This is why the hadith of Muhammad describes the Angel Jabreel, who transmitted the Message to Muhammad as a Man, a black man...


Dr. Ben had a much larger/different/specific perspective on Islam that the one you are referring too about it's origin. I got much of my opinion from him in fact. I am referring to not just his written historical information(of which he openly diverged from/altered and/or added too later in life) but also what he expressed in many a conference. He pretty much shared my opinion, and encouraged Africans to get initiated into the mysteries by other African systems that exist, not the ones that are just based on 'our' systems in origin but warped by our oppressors. When I say that "Religion is the deification of culture", that is a direct quote from him.


quote:
quote:
You don't have to. Logic, not literal NOI slanted re-interpretation of myth is what I was looking for as an explanation of the prefference for Islam(the deification of Arab culture) . But I see that is not where this convo is headed.


Sister Oshun, you should not allow yourself to be limited like that. The logic of denouncing Islam due to the behaviour of Arabs or even because it was delvered through an Arab is flawed. One because our own tradition predicts the rise of the ausarian principle out of aforeign mouth, and two becasue you cannot judge an idea by it's carrier. The truth of a thing is completely independant of the one who speaks it...Perhaps you can despise someone so much that you do not want to hear anything that they say..I would say that I may not believe something on the basis of a person's character and history, however, if I find a vagabond, telling me secrets to how to unlock the treasures of creation, and he says things which I know only a select few have ever known, and he begins to tell me that he was sent by my God to give me this message, you damn well better belive that I am gonna give this homel;ess guy an ear..I may offer him clean clothes, and a bath, however, i will not allow his wretchedness to distract me from the message he was given for me...


Firstly, nothing is independent of the motives(or influence) of the messenger. To think differently is highly nieve. Haven't we ever played telephone as children?

Your analogy is flawed. If a vagabond, who has done nothing to me tells me something, of course I will listen and try to assist him/her.

But if a people, who invaded my land and enslaved my people, then try to get me to deify their culture via their retelling/re-interpretation BY FORCE of my own people's ancient wisdom. I will tell them to... well, you can guess. I'd rather learn from my brother directly than my enemy.

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I love my NOI brothers and sisters, and will organize with them reguardless, but the insistance upon validating Islam with total disreguard to cultural/historical logic, instead of just dealing with Africa baffles me(well not really)!


You have to study a little more sister...



Kai


We all need to continue studying, it is a never ending process. I sense a bit of haughtiness coming from you with that last statement. You have not presented any new information to me. We just interpret the same info differently because we are coming from different bases. You apply the myths of Ausar to a literal history, which, IMO is almost as dangerous a thought/belief process as what X-tian fundis do. I can't literalize or re-interpret myth to justify accepting the 'truth' through the cultural perspective of my enemy. That has nothing to do with a lack of study.

Also, can you please adress what divination system and metho of ancestral elevation/veneration the NOI uses?
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
I truly want to thank the participants in this thread for your contributions and encourage you, each, to continue. I am especially appreciative when you post links to undergird your position/thought, rather than merely provide declarative statements.

I keep coming back, so that I can digest/attempt to understand it a little bit at a time.

Keep it up. tfro


Kweli,

What do you mean?

Declarative statements are a person's opinion... are you suggesting that opinions must be backed by the statements of accepted scholars?

I am unclear...


Being largely ignorant regarding this topic, I have trouble discerning what is opinion [which is cool] and what is textually/historically supportable "fact." So, as a means of educating myself, I'd just like to see HOW you [all] arrived at your positions.

That's all.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Being largely ignorant regarding this topic, I have trouble discerning what is opinion [which is cool] and what is textually/historically supportable "fact." So, as a means of educating myself, I'd just like to see HOW you [all] arrived at your positions.

That's all.


Hmm.. fair enough... I will strive to be mindful of this when I post next time...

tfro
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Peace and Blessings OshunAuset....


quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
No parden needed,

I have been in the past.


As was I...

We share this in common....

quote:
BUT I discovered many a contradiction that didn't sit well with me.


I found a few contradictions but nothing to discredit the overall purpose of his message... I found that his understanding of the tree of life took me only so far... I needed to go further....

But... his explanation of spiritual growth (which is what attracted me to Metu Neter II) is the primary reason for my study of Ra Un Nefer....

quote:
Like the fact he was a disgruntled Ifa Babalawo before starting the Ausar Auset society.


From reading his writings I suspect that subscribing to Ifa... was not his only background... his wisdom seems to stem from a variety of sources...


Yes, it was not his only background, but I mention this for a reason.

quote:
quote:
And to hide this fact, instead of using the Ifa divination system he picked the I Ching. Once again, why would you go with the non African version? I can go on but I don't want to talk bad about him because he does so much good...


Is not the I Ching and Ifa diviniation similar in purpose?


Yes, but why pick a divination system from a foreign culture when you are already initiated into the use of one from an African source(very strange)? That is what I mean by 'it looks like he was trying to hide something'...like the fact he was a disgrunteledBabalawo. (Check my link reference for what some of the disgrunteled do for what I further meant by this)

quote:
Something I have learned over the years is that many scholars who then begin their own religious organizations take advantage of their members who believe everything they say/teach largely because they simply don't/didn't have access to the same amount of information, and are constantly playing catch up with the founder/teachings. These people usually have grown emotionally attatched to a particular organization/doctrine, and don't want to admit any flaws or false/errored teachings, even if they do come across some within their chosen 'beloved' org. Once most followers are committed, they tend to rationalize or change/incorporate new sometimes contradictory info to support the believed doctrine. Even if such evidence actually would actually demand a change in the original doctrine(back to an orginial African one usually). Dr. Yorks crew(Nuwabian) would be the extreme example of this IMO.


Yes... this is true with every path.... you will find sheisty individuals among all people... you will find spiritual and intellectually lazy among all people and paths... the important thing is to analyze the path itself and how effective it is in bringing about spiritual transformation... Lest we began to lose out on wisdom because our focus remains on those who do not understand it properly...[/quote]

Yes, but with all the ancient paths of spirituality we have to reference that have been tried and tested by our ancestors(check the link for more on this too) what would cause one to re-invent the wheel and start their own new religion/path? IMO the answer to this is ego, which shows a lack of spiritual development.

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I trust the historical academics of Dr. Ben to a far greater degree than Ra Un Nefer Amen when it comes to KMT. Ben demonstrated his willingness to assimilate new information into his histrical annalysis and admit error in the past statements he made largely because he had no doctrine he adheared to.(He wasn't the founder/adherent of any religious org.)


Spirituality and History both have a place with me... I do not begrudge a man's wisdom because he has people who follow his message, especially if it is one that helps to bring them out of despair... The study of history fleshes out our understanding of the development and formation of our present reality...

but in both, the message will always be colored somewhat by the presenter.. nothing escapes this... the important thing for one receiving a message is to focus on the message itself... and discern its relevance...

We, who are the original people of this planet have never lost our leanings.. we simply needed to be reminded of them... in a way that is sufficient and in a way that is gradual...

changing habits including habits of mind and spirit, if one is to retain their essentials as a firm foundation within.... the change must take place gradually...


Hence my preference for a direct African source for a path.

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I also trust the teachings directly from Africa and an unbroken chain of African people (and our ancestors), over any organization that came to rise out of a Western conditioning/circumstances and/or Afrocentrist intelligencia dominated by Western diasporan scholorship.



Our elders who practice Ifa did not come...

A Muslim did...


How exactly did I(and others) 'find' Ifa then?

This is simply not factual. Ifa(and other traditional trods) came WITH US. The elders have always been with us but our enemy got us to reject our elders as witches, and our ancestral ways as evil/heathen. Other Ifa elders have come directly from the continent as well, thoughs who have not sought them out don't know this possibly.
Peace....



quote:
How do you filter out all of the Arabic corruption, and why would one bother when there are plenty of uncorrupted or minimally corrupted African 'versions'?


The path toward Islam does not begin with Muhammad of Arabia...In the opening Surah of the Holy Qur'an, the muslim seeks guidance to the right path...

In the name of Allah the Beneficent the Merciful, all praise is due to Allah Lord of the Worlds, Master of the day of Judgment. Oh Allah Guide us on the right path, the path upon whom favors are bestowed, not the path upon whom wrath is brought down nor those who go astray..."

This path did not start with the Arab..it was granted..

Those who have pure African faiths already have Islam. Those who practice pure Chrisitianity already have Islam, the same with the Jews...Those who were already followers of the Oneness of God accepted the Message of Muhammad (pbuh) as an extended Message from their Lord...

Islam is an Arabic word which means "Peace"..Muhammad offered the various world orders a Message from their own God, a message which required submission, and a return to a very simple way of believing...

Oshun, if a Chinese man came with a greeting card from a dear relative, would you reject it because of the nationality of the carrier?? Or would you examine the card and realize that it is from your beloved??

The African was wise enough to know to look at content, and not the carrier...Or the name of the carrier service...It is handling and packaging sister...the contents are ancient...

The to get to the core is simply by becoming familiar with what is in the Revelation...

quote:
Dr. Ben also has stated(when I have seen him in person)
he doesn't understand why the children of Africa re-borrow borrowed and corrupted versions of our own spiritual systems. I have seen him argue down plenty of Muslims about Islam. Yes, the root is borrowed from Africa, Yes much of their development took place in Africa, that is a given, but the corruption(deification of foreign/invader cultures by the reinterpretation of the ORIGINAL myths is quite deep).



I know Dr. Ben's position as it relates to Orthodox Muslims, however, I also know that Dr. Ben has most recently placed his library in the care of the Nation Of Islam...Ny his own statement he knew that this is where it would be best placed...

This is not an argument in Favor of what so many black people in America fall for which is a deification of Arabic culture in the namew of relgion..The Nation Of Islam cannot be accused of that..We have claimed a message which belongs to us..A message which came from a black man (Jabreel) to an Arab Man Muhammad which was in truth meant for a future black man...Muhammd was a good Nabi, and Rasul. He wqas faithful in his delivery and execution of the Will of the Hiden power which guided him..However, He was a Messenger...It wasn't His message...it wasn't meant for the Arab world since the Prophet Muhammd himself said that after only three geneations the muslim world would go astray...However, Sister Oshun, he told the world of Islam to look into the West in the Last day for the rise of one who would establish the relion..he told them that this one may have hair like raisins, and face like soot(spelling)..He told them that he saw the footsteps of Bilal The African, proceeding into heaven before his own...He died before Bilal, so he did not mean that Bilal would die first and enter heaven, He was speaking of the footsteps of the Black Kushite before the footsteps of the Bedouin Arab.

This religion of Islam is our own...It always has belonged to us..Hetepu.

quote:
This is where we disagree. I do not literalize spiritually transformative myths that are symbolized by cellestial and terrestrial events and apply them to literal history.


Why do you call these systems Myths...Sister, perhaps you fail to see that Hekau, or words of power had actual phenomenal power..Just as a voice controlled remote..Paut Neteru is not a Myth..It is physics..Our African people provided wisdom in such symbolism which alluded to very real occurances...

The system of Paut neteru is a very real construct which explains real events...I am pressed for time, however, I will provide a citation later...

quote:
I am not repulsed by the Scarab. I do not apply the natural cyclical myth of the Scarab to the literal 'Arab'. That is the constant literalizing of myth that is done by our people(and the masses in general when it comes to religious myth) that I do not agree with. That is what people do with the Bible stories, then they miss the entire point of the symbolism. IMO applying the Arab to the scarab minimizes the symbolism of the cyclical nature of the scarab greatly. Please give a refference of what caused you to come to the conclusion that the scarab represents the Arab, or is that just an allegorical connection you are making for the sake of conversation via the spelling coincidence


Sister, you use the name Oshun, and Auset...you use these Ifa, and kemetic names to represent you...This is the same way we have named things in the ancient world..we provide names to represent the nature of a thing...In the Ausarian system people are called Ausar..We name things in accordance to the inner workings of their nature...The Arab wears that name by design..

You are looking at the logic in reverse...The Scarab represents an aspect in the process of reejuvenation..the role of the scarab is one who pushes filth across the land which contains the seed for regeneration...The seed is covered in filth...This symbolism represents something real in the objective plane..


Okay I gotta go..I'll be back to finish this...


Kai
quote:
Peace....


Oshun, if a Chinese man came with a greeting card from a dear relative, would you reject it because of the nationality of the carrier?? Or would you examine the card and realize that it is from your beloved??


This analogy is flawed(like the previous one alluding to the same thing on this thread)

It should go much more like this...

If the Chinese as an organized force, had entered your home, taken it over as their own, kidnapped and raped you and your family generationally for about 2000 years, and forced their beliefs systems and culture upon you by threat of death, and then a Chinese man came with a greeting card claiming it was from a dear relative, would your rejection be based upon the nationality of the carrier or a historical reality that he may be trying to screw you again?? Would you examine the card and believe that it's contents are actual sentiments from your beloved? Or would you call up your beloved, who is readily available by telephone or persona visit to talk to directly, and find out first hand what their sentiments are??

quote:
The African was wise enough to know to look at content, and not the carrier...Or the name of the carrier service...It is handling and packaging sister...the contents are ancient...


Not quite, the African had a choice to make, convert to Islam or die.

quote:
I know Dr. Ben's position as it relates to Orthodox Muslims, however, I also know that Dr. Ben has most recently placed his library in the care of the Nation Of Islam...Ny his own statement he knew that this is where it would be best placed...


That is because the NOI is the most organized group our people have in this country. I have said that several times in my posts. I realized once I was older what attracted me to the NOI was their superior level of organization(that was framed after the UNIA-ACL by Elijah's own admission). The NOI is the most equiped at defending Dr. Ben's works from the intellectually disshonest West who may destroy or alter it beyond recognition. That was a logical choice to make and one I whole heartedly agree with. It doesn't say anything about his personal spiritual concepts or his approval or disapproval of the NOI religious/spiritual beleifs.

Like I stated before, we just aren't going to agree for the previously mentioned reasons. No need in beating a dead horse. That being said, would you please respond to my previous questions about the NOI divination, and the ancestors?
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

Yes, but why pick a divination system from a foreign culture when you are already initiated into the use of one from an African source(very strange)? That is what I mean by 'it looks like he was trying to hide something'...like the fact he was a disgrunteledBabalawo. (Check my link reference for what some of the disgrunteled do for what I further meant by this)


I will not defend Ra Un Nefer's choices.... this is something only he can explain... but I do not take offense because he utilized something of value... I do not think the only beneficial information that can be utilized is strictly and only through the eyes of one particular and specific indigenous philosophy....

quote:
Yes, but with all the ancient paths of spirituality we have to reference that have been tried and tested by our ancestors(check the link for more on this too) what would cause one to re-invent the wheel and start their own new religion/path? IMO the answer to this is ego, which shows a lack of spiritual development.


The wheel is not reinvented.... the knowledge is simply passed on to a people that need it... there is no "new" religion...

religion is not culture...

religion is principle and values .... of which a culture springs forth.....

quote:
quote:
the message will always be colored somewhat by the presenter.. nothing escapes this...


Hence my preference for a direct African source for a path.


a message will always be colored yes... including those that have been brought by our own people....

my preference was Islam... I did not find I had much to sort through... the principles were quite clear and absorbed for someone like me left here in the hells of North America.... I had a message of spiritual upliftment tailor made for me... and I have been raised in stages... I was not brought a culture... but principles that were palatable to my spiritual eye... and I am being raised in degrees... hence I come from a tradition that was very narrow minded to other religious wisdom... through Islam I became more accepting and receptive to others seeing the principles of their faith as well as evaluating the methods... and most important morally upright...

I did not go seek to pick and choose through the African continent which system would work for me... at 16.. all I knew was Christianity... at 19 I was brought Islam... and all around me the most shining examples of human development and the most fascinating history, organizational structure and doctrine was NOI....

We all seek our own level of spiritual attainment... I have seen much transformation with some of our people who may never visit the Islands or a particular part of Africa or pick up a book to read... much less be receptive to it... turn their lives completely around and begin to read, clean themselves up and reach out to others... for me.. this was my experience .... coupled with the direction it was headed... though I was not this down trodden.... it offered other aspects for someone like me.....

NOI is not a religion.. or an organization.. Islam is the religion and the doctrine, has the mind of those who accept it, moving towards the first step towards nation building...

this is simply what worked for and inspired me...


quote:


How exactly did I(and others) 'find' Ifa then?


Some African spiritual traditions as well as Muslims (Hausa)survived in the islands.. other traditional practices were sustained in habits among slaves... and sustained in our culture... the reverence of mother, star reading, stones used in rituals to venerate the ancestors... but I do not wish to potentially insult you by describing things I'm sure you could do much better than I...

quote:
Ifa(and other traditional trods) came WITH US. The elders have always been with us but our enemy got us to reject our elders as witches, and our ancestral ways as evil/heathen. Other Ifa elders have come directly from the continent as well,


This is true... I am not against anyone accepting Ifa and other traditional paths... I do not begrudge wisdom wherever it is to be found...

our people, here in America, were transformed through this slavery process and have absorbed much of this American culture and way of life...

I am fortunate that we were studied so that we could receive a message, tailored made for us, that brings us out of our stupor in degrees...

we are commissioned to not replicate the past exactly, but to appreciate what has become before us... and embrace wisdom wherever it is to be found..
Peace...

Let us continue....

quote:
I have read of this, BUT their are also records that the Kamau said that their entire civilization was borrowed from an earlier people 'up the Nile' into the interior aof Africa and that the Twa(deified by Bes) were the people they borrowed their cosmonology from. There are many accounts of origins of the KeMeTic civilization, just like their are many creation stories ect. because they are not supposed to be taken literally Thise particualr origin account I am referring too also coincides with the path of Humanity accounted for in science, from the interior of Africa(the Great Lakes Region) down(what is now 'up') the Nile. Dr. Ben and Ashra Kwesi(his student) both agree with this as the origin of the KeMeTic civilization, not Arabia. And... I also noticed that the "Somalia" reference(Horn of Africa) seems to be removed or minimized as the actual land of Punt... Why is the Arabia location preferred over the Somalia location? Why is one KeMeTic origin story preferred/hilighted over the myriad of others(and it just so happens to be the one referring to Arabia)? ...hhhmmm.



Everything said by the Kemau is not symbolic of something else. The Kemau were meticulous record keepers of actual History. This is one of the reasons the Pyramids were constructed, as the mystic Manly P. Hall says, they are "sermons in stone". People would deny Kemet all of her greatness and reduce this nation to a nation of metaphors and allegories...No...This focus is imbalanced..Yes the Kemau had an attachment to the hidden subjective world which was represented in the various symbols in the Kemetic system, however while these symbols represented the formation and transformation of abstract realities, they equally represented real objects, and real events.

Your approach seems to be one sided as it relates to this.

As to Puanit, I have already provided you with the account of Queen Hatshepsut who commissioned a boat expedition into the land of Puanit to gather products which grew in abudance in Arabia. Somalia can be reached by land.

This cannot just be overlooked....

quote:
Some more literal/historical interpretations of ancient myths that were never meant to be taken as such. This reminds me of how the Rastafarians and Hebrew Isrealites 'believe' that it was prophesied we were goiong to be brought over here in chains via their literalizing of Biblical Old Testament myth and it's application to our current circumstances.

I see this as a pshychological validation of African ties to the Biblical(a.k.a Judeo-X-tian/Euro-centric) worldview. In other words, although it is a much healthier mis-interpretation, mis-application, and literlizing of myth than the Average African X-tianity in the West, it is still reactionary, and not coming from pride of one's people(deification of OUR culture) independent of some link to the religion(and therefore validation) of our oppressor(s).


Sister Oshun, the biblical account was prophetic of our enslavement...Sister the people who brought us here were Masons, they had bibles...They knew that they were completing a part of prophecy when they captured us..

Our sojourn was predicted...

Those who captured us were expecting a Saviour from the East...I'll prove this if you wish, however it may throw off the course of the thread..This is beside the point however...There seems to be the need for another thread discusing the proper application and view of African belief systems...I think you just see them as Myths...I do not agree..I think you are trying to come to grips by compromising too much...

quote:
And much like airport security asks. "Has this package been in your hands the entire time? Can you verify that it has not been in unknown hands since the time you packed it?" I don't trust message carriers, that obviousely demonstrated through history that they have a hostile relationship with my people, to not corrupt the ORIGINAL message.



I agree, however, when the message is sealed with a message, the carrier has no idea how to corrupt it...

He just pushes the ball like we ask...


quote:
Literalization of myth is paganism and is largely the problem with the way the masses practice all religions today. Taking literal, spiritually transformation represented by natural symbolism(cellestial and terrestrial) myth is strictly forbidden by the initiated


The methodology of presenting stories to represent ideas is just that..The mythology represents something real...We, the student must study to determine the meaning in the symbol..We cannot cast out this reality so that we can justify things we cannot explain..

The Kemetic system spoke of Order, and Balance..the actually were talking about real order, and real balance...

If I was to take the scarab symbolism literally I would expect to find a big beetle in the sky, or if I took the Ausar myth literally I would really think that Auset reassembled a dead body and had sex with it and gave birth to a child. I would believe in the literal weighing of the soul, and the idea that Set had a swine head, etc...That is a literal view..What I have expalined is not the literalization of the mythology..Perhaps you do not completely understand what it means to take something literally...

Okay gotta run...



Kai
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

Yes, but why pick a divination system from a foreign culture when you are already initiated into the use of one from an African source(very strange)? That is what I mean by 'it looks like he was trying to hide something'...like the fact he was a disgrunteledBabalawo. (Check my link reference for what some of the disgrunteled do for what I further meant by this)


I will not defend Ra Un Nefer's choices.... this is something only he can explain... but I do not take offense because he utilized something of value... I do not think the only beneficial information that can be utilized is strictly and only through the eyes of one particular and specific indigenous philosophy....


On this we agree. I do not take offense to Ra Un Nefer's choices either, I was just pointing out my analysis if the choices made, and how certain observations led me to Ifa.

quote:
quote:
Yes, but with all the ancient paths of spirituality we have to reference that have been tried and tested by our ancestors(check the link for more on this too) what would cause one to re-invent the wheel and start their own new religion/path? IMO the answer to this is ego, which shows a lack of spiritual development.


The wheel is not reinvented.... the knowledge is simply passed on to a people that need it... there is no "new" religion...


I don't really agree with this although I understand where you are coming from. Their are new religions. Mormanism and Nuwabian Nation being 2 of the most obvious ones IMO.

quote:
religion is not culture...

religion is principle and values .... of which a culture springs forth..... [/quoite]

I still prefer the definition Dr. Ben gave... Religion is the deification of culture.

quote:
quote:
quote:
the message will always be colored somewhat by the presenter.. nothing escapes this...


Hence my preference for a direct African source for a path.


a message will always be colored yes... including those that have been brought by our own people....


Yes, and I prefer the 'colouring' from my ancestors, those that are not foreigners who have a historically hostile and genocidal relationship with my ancient, and recent ancestors, or current family. But to each his/her own.


quote:
my preference was Islam... I did not find I had much to sort through... the principles were quite clear and absorbed for someone like me left here in the hells of North America.... I had a message of spiritual upliftment tailor made for me... and I have been raised in stages... I was not brought a culture... but principles that were palatable to my spiritual eye... and I am being raised in degrees... hence I come from a tradition that was very narrow minded to other religious wisdom... through Islam I became more accepting and receptive to others seeing the principles of their faith as well as evaluating the methods... and most important morally upright...

I did not go seek to pick and choose through the African continent which system would work for me... at 16.. all I knew was Christianity... at 19 I was brought Islam... and all around me the most shining examples of human development and the most fascinating history, organizational structure and doctrine was NOI....

We all seek our own level of spiritual attainment... I have seen much transformation with some of our people who may never visit the Islands or a particular part of Africa or pick up a book to read... much less be receptive to it... turn their lives completely around and begin to read, clean themselves up and reach out to others... for me.. this was my experience .... coupled with the direction it was headed... though I was not this down trodden.... it offered other aspects for someone like me.....

NOI is not a religion.. or an organization.. Islam is the religion and the doctrine, has the mind of those who accept it, moving towards the first step towards nation building...

this is simply what worked for and inspired me...


I hope I didn't make anyone feel like they needed to explain why they came to the NOI or put anyone(in particular you) on the defensive. I have much admiration for the NOI, and you and Sarcaren in particular on this board. It's just this one little concern I have that I can't get past as far as I am concerned. But that is no reflection on you of course.


quote:
quote:

How exactly did I(and others) 'find' Ifa then?


Some African spiritual traditions as well as Muslims (Hausa)survived in the islands.. other traditional practices were sustained in habits among slaves... and sustained in our culture... the reverence of mother, star reading, stones used in rituals to venerate the ancestors... but I do not wish to potentially insult you by describing things I'm sure you could do much better than I...


Sorry, that was a rhetorical question.

quote:
quote:
Ifa(and other traditional trods) came WITH US. The elders have always been with us but our enemy got us to reject our elders as witches, and our ancestral ways as evil/heathen. Other Ifa elders have come directly from the continent as well,


This is true... I am not against anyone accepting Ifa and other traditional paths... I do not begrudge wisdom wherever it is to be found...

our people, here in America, were transformed through this slavery process and have absorbed much of this American culture and way of life...

I am fortunate that we were studied so that we could receive a message, tailored made for us, that brings us out of our stupor in degrees...

we are commissioned to not replicate the past exactly, but to appreciate what has become before us... and embrace wisdom wherever it is to be found..


On this we also agree.
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace...

Let us continue....

quote:
I have read of this, BUT their are also records that the Kamau said that their entire civilization was borrowed from an earlier people 'up the Nile' into the interior aof Africa and that the Twa(deified by Bes) were the people they borrowed their cosmonology from. There are many accounts of origins of the KeMeTic civilization, just like their are many creation stories ect. because they are not supposed to be taken literally Thise particualr origin account I am referring too also coincides with the path of Humanity accounted for in science, from the interior of Africa(the Great Lakes Region) down(what is now 'up') the Nile. Dr. Ben and Ashra Kwesi(his student) both agree with this as the origin of the KeMeTic civilization, not Arabia. And... I also noticed that the "Somalia" reference(Horn of Africa) seems to be removed or minimized as the actual land of Punt... Why is the Arabia location preferred over the Somalia location? Why is one KeMeTic origin story preferred/hilighted over the myriad of others(and it just so happens to be the one referring to Arabia)? ...hhhmmm.



Everything said by the Kemau is not symbolic of something else. The Kemau were meticulous record keepers of actual History. This is one of the reasons the Pyramids were constructed, as the mystic Manly P. Hall says, they are "sermons in stone". People would deny Kemet all of her greatness and reduce this nation to a nation of metaphors and allegories...No...This focus is imbalanced..Yes the Kemau had an attachment to the hidden subjective world which was represented in the various symbols in the Kemetic system, however while these symbols represented the formation and transformation of abstract realities, they equally represented real objects, and real events.

Your approach seems to be one sided as it relates to this.

As to Puanit, I have already provided you with the account of Queen Hatshepsut who commissioned a boat expedition into the land of Puanit to gather products which grew in abudance in Arabia. Somalia can be reached by land.

This cannot just be overlooked....

quote:
Some more literal/historical interpretations of ancient myths that were never meant to be taken as such. This reminds me of how the Rastafarians and Hebrew Isrealites 'believe' that it was prophesied we were goiong to be brought over here in chains via their literalizing of Biblical Old Testament myth and it's application to our current circumstances.

I see this as a pshychological validation of African ties to the Biblical(a.k.a Judeo-X-tian/Euro-centric) worldview. In other words, although it is a much healthier mis-interpretation, mis-application, and literlizing of myth than the Average African X-tianity in the West, it is still reactionary, and not coming from pride of one's people(deification of OUR culture) independent of some link to the religion(and therefore validation) of our oppressor(s).


Sister Oshun, the biblical account was prophetic of our enslavement...Sister the people who brought us here were Masons, they had bibles...They knew that they were completing a part of prophecy when they captured us..

Our sojourn was predicted...

Those who captured us were expecting a Saviour from the East...I'll prove this if you wish, however it may throw off the course of the thread..This is beside the point however...There seems to be the need for another thread discusing the proper application and view of African belief systems...I think you just see them as Myths...I do not agree..I think you are trying to come to grips by compromising too much...

quote:
And much like airport security asks. "Has this package been in your hands the entire time? Can you verify that it has not been in unknown hands since the time you packed it?" I don't trust message carriers, that obviousely demonstrated through history that they have a hostile relationship with my people, to not corrupt the ORIGINAL message.



I agree, however, when the message is sealed with a message, the carrier has no idea how to corrupt it...

He just pushes the ball like we ask...


quote:
Literalization of myth is paganism and is largely the problem with the way the masses practice all religions today. Taking literal, spiritually transformation represented by natural symbolism(cellestial and terrestrial) myth is strictly forbidden by the initiated


The methodology of presenting stories to represent ideas is just that..The mythology represents something real...We, the student must study to determine the meaning in the symbol..We cannot cast out this reality so that we can justify things we cannot explain..

The Kemetic system spoke of Order, and Balance..the actually were talking about real order, and real balance...

If I was to take the scarab symbolism literally I would expect to find a big beetle in the sky, or if I took the Ausar myth literally I would really think that Auset reassembled a dead body and had sex with it and gave birth to a child. I would believe in the literal weighing of the soul, and the idea that Set had a swine head, etc...That is a literal view..What I have expalined is not the literalization of the mythology..Perhaps you do not completely understand what it means to take something literally...

Okay gotta run...



Kai


You have a point. I should say ... "I don't agree with the re-interpretations of ancient KeMeTic(and others) mythos/symbolism that the NOI(and others) do to fit in with their preconcieved beliefs about prophecy. It is very easy to apply symbolisms/myths to historical events that happened after their development/conception and label them prophetic. Often, because we are privy to both events we draw connections that were never intended by the ancients.

I do not agree that our enslavement was prophecized in the Helio Biblio. IMO(from my studies) the Bible's version of the so-called enslavement of the Haribu/Hebrews in 'Egypt land' was really the invaders(the Hyksos) twisting historical accounts to make them the sympathetic characters...To disguise the fact they copied(and once again twisted via their cultural imprint) the original KeMeTic philosophies and spiritual sciences when they were really the invaders that usurped the crown and eventually were kicked out(not led out) of Our Holy land. I'm not big on prophesy, particularly from corrupted sources.

I do recognize that seeing such things as prophetic helped to inspire our people in the times of our enslavement and oppression/exploitation in the West. This is because it is all we had to referrence at the time and speaks to our endless creativity. BUT now we have access to the original meanings of the symbols and myths and their is no need to do so.

The spiritual systems of our oppressors that cause us to singularize, personalize and masculinize the Universal Creator God/Force are dangerous IMO.

I forgot to mention this before... the word Scarab is Greek, the KeMeTic word for dung beatle was Khepera, so their goes the similarity with the words Scarab/Arab.
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
I don't really agree with this although I understand where you are coming from. Their are new religions. Mormanism and Nuwabian Nation being 2 of the most obvious ones IMO.


These are new interpretations of values and principles from which spring new cultures....

quote:
quote:
religion is not culture...

religion is principle and values .... of which a culture springs forth.....


I still prefer the definition Dr. Ben gave... Religion is the deification of culture.


Understood... we may have to simply agree to disagree here... though it is a fundamental prismal disagreement...


quote:

Yes, and I prefer the 'colouring' from my ancestors, those that are not foreigners who have a historically hostile and genocidal relationship with my ancient, and recent ancestors, or current family. But to each his/her own.


I do not find that Black people are correct in all matters... so I do not base my knowledge off of lineage, geographic location, or coloring...

because of history and evidence I lean away from and have a propensity to NOT give weight to what my enemy says.... but... if truth is recognized I will follow it... no matter the lineage of the carrier...

A skinhead that tells me not to go anywhere near him (supposedly because he's dangerous) speaks more truth to me than my grandmother that tells me to trust that Jesus will save me and encourages me to walk through his neighborhood...

Truth is superior to culture and lineage...


quote:
I hope I didn't make anyone feel like they needed to explain why they came to the NOI or put anyone(in particular you) on the defensive. I have much admiration for the NOI, and you and Sarcaren in particular on this board. It's just this one little concern I have that I can't get past as far as I am concerned. But that is no reflection on you of course.


Understood.... I posted this as a response to your consistent reference to your personal preference and to allow you a more intimate view into mine...

Forgive me if it was long winded...


quote:
Sorry, that was a rhetorical question.


I know... it was sort of a rhetorical answer...

Razz
Peace.....


Continuing........

quote:
How do you account for the clearly mysogenistic tale of the Queen of Sheba in the Qur'an, which is the demonizing of the devine feminine and replacement of African matriarchy and matrilineal systems(Sheba) by the conquoring patriarchal Indo-European invaders? The Qur'an's version is even more mysogenistic than the Biblical one.



I see no such thing within the Quranic text. The Queen of Sheba was well received into the house of Solomon by the report in the Qur'an. Perhaps sister Oshun, you can cite the Surah which warrants your assessment.

quote:
Dr. Ben had a much larger/different/specific perspective on Islam that the one you are referring too about it's origin. I got much of my opinion from him in fact. I am referring to not just his written historical information(of which he openly diverged from/altered and/or added too later in life) but also what he expressed in many a conference. He pretty much shared my opinion, and encouraged Africans to get initiated into the mysteries by other African systems that exist, not the ones that are just based on 'our' systems in origin but warped by our oppressors. When I say that "Religion is the deification of culture", that is a direct quote from him.



Very well, however, Dr. Yosef Ben Jochanon, is a friend of the NOI. He realizes that our approach to Islam is not the approach of the arab. Your arguments against NOI doctrine pale in comparison to the arguments hurled at us by the socalled "orthodox" arab community. They reject the NOI because in their minds we have asserted more than what they have been taught. We do make such assertions because we realize that the (Re)ligion of Islam is a (Re)minder of a very ancient path which started before there was ever a palke Arab in Sheba, or Puanit. Ra Un Nefer Amen describes the word "religion" as a path back toward something...

This is exactly what it is, a methodology for return that every African scholar of note in America has travelled. It was Islam or her foster children in the Mysteries which gave rise to the awakening of black thought in America. Before the coming of Islam in the West we had no approach to a liberating spiritual system. Yes the Ifa tradition survived, however the Ifa system is not designed to correct the damage of slavery, Ifa is not designed to awaken the cold sleep of Black Christianity and the worship of a White Saviour God. Ifa is beautiful, however it is the tradition of a people who were never put under death..

This ailment required a specific medicine. This ailment required the direct participation of Djhuty (Tehuti)the Grand alchemist. Someone had to create a method which would unravel the lie which was seated deep in our hearts and minds...The Yoruba do not reject medicine..The Yoruba are fighting right now in laboratories to find a cure for Aids..They realize that the invocation of the Orishas cannot cure this ailment facing their people..this is a disease which arises from a specific poison and soi a specifc antedote must be crafted...Yes...

Sister, all of the houses of Religion still remaining from the Mother Continent have suffered a degree of corrupton and deviation. At our height, the Heirophant in the mysteries could summon the weather, The Heirophant could travel without moving, The Heirogrammat could display the full history of the Asiatic realm delving deep into remote antiquities...

We have lost the fullness our our practice and we require a return road back into our "Right" mind. The people of Kemet believed in the "All in All" "All Law" Allah as we in the NOI see this reality. Allah has established a (Re) ligion leading us back into our original state. A state of Peace, Freedom, Justice, and Equality...

The caucasian came into our West African Kingdoms and tricked our Chiefs, they tricked our Baba-lawo, they gathered them on boats and beat them until they rejected the Orishas...They molested our children and mutilated their spiritual receptors until they could no longer speak their own language which was a language of righteousness and union with the divine world.


The correction cannot be a simple reintroduction into the very system which we were stolen out of, and tricked within..


The Arab is a non-issue for me...The arab is packaging for me...The Arab is coating on a pill nothing more...

When Auset travelled into the land of Cedars to awaken her beloved husband she wore a disguise...So that she could travel unnoticed into the heart to speak Hekau into the mind of her fallen King...The return to our greatness comes like a theft..It is secretly, and carefully placed under cover To avoid full detection by Set, and his Setian soldiers, who rule the land of Ausar. Both subjectively true for the mind, and literally true on the earth..Set rules both planes. It has been his Hour...

I have to go...I will answer your question relating to NOI Divination systems this evening..


Kai
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace.....


Continuing........

quote:
How do you account for the clearly mysogenistic tale of the Queen of Sheba in the Qur'an, which is the demonizing of the devine feminine and replacement of African matriarchy and matrilineal systems(Sheba) by the conquoring patriarchal Indo-European invaders? The Qur'an's version is even more mysogenistic than the Biblical one.



I see no such thing within the Quranic text. The Queen of Sheba was well received into the house of Solomon by the report in the Qur'an. Perhaps sister Oshun, you can cite the Surah which warrants your assessment.


So there is no mention in the Qur'an that Sheba had goats feet and worked with demons? I'll site the exact text when I have the chance to look it up.

[/quote]
quote:
Dr. Ben had a much larger/different/specific perspective on Islam that the one you are referring too about it's origin. I got much of my opinion from him in fact. I am referring to not just his written historical information(of which he openly diverged from/altered and/or added too later in life) but also what he expressed in many a conference. He pretty much shared my opinion, and encouraged Africans to get initiated into the mysteries by other African systems that exist, not the ones that are just based on 'our' systems in origin but warped by our oppressors. When I say that "Religion is the deification of culture", that is a direct quote from him.


Very well, however, Dr. Yosef Ben Jochanon, is a friend of the NOI. He realizes that our approach to Islam is not the approach of the arab. Your arguments against NOI doctrine pale in comparison to the arguments hurled at us by the socalled "orthodox" arab community. They reject the NOI because in their minds we have asserted more than what they have been taught. We do make such assertions because we realize that the (Re)ligion of Islam is a (Re)minder of a very ancient path which started before there was ever a palke Arab in Sheba, or Puanit. Ra Un Nefer Amen describes the word "religion" as a path back toward something...[/quote]

I also siight that the NOI is dramatically different that orthodox Islam, in may good ways...

quote:
This is exactly what it is, a methodology for return that every African scholar of note in America has travelled. It was Islam or her foster children in the Mysteries which gave rise to the awakening of black thought in America. Before the coming of Islam in the West we had no approach to a liberating spiritual system. Yes the Ifa tradition survived, however the Ifa system is not designed to correct the damage of slavery, Ifa is not designed to awaken the cold sleep of Black Christianity and the worship of a White Saviour God. Ifa is beautiful, however it is the tradition of a people who were never put under death..


LOL, for real? Tell that to all the Aborishas. Do you really think Omo Ifa Wale (children who have returned to Ifa) aren't repairing the psychological/ economic/political damage of slavery? I think this was a broadly ignorant and arrogant statement to make as a non Aborisha, and as a fellow African liberation supporter in general. I wouldn't make such an insulting statement about the NOI whatsoever, even if we have disagreements about religion/spirituality.

quote:
This ailment required a specific medicine. This ailment required the direct participation of Djhuty (Tehuti)the Grand alchemist. Someone had to create a method which would unravel the lie which was seated deep in our hearts and minds...The Yoruba do not reject medicine..The Yoruba are fighting right now in laboratories to find a cure for Aids..They realize that the invocation of the Orishas cannot cure this ailment facing their people..this is a disease which arises from a specific poison and so a specifc antedote must be crafted...Yes...


When has anyone(in particualr me) ever said that acknowledging the Orishas and the ancestors was all that Ifa(and other traditional trods) encompassed. When have the Aborishas ever rejected medicine and alchemy, have you ever heard of rootwork/hoohoo(a.k.a holistic medicine and herbology) When has any traditional African spirituality not had a balance of holistic medicine(psycological/metaphysical as well) within the spiritual system? Hence I refer to Traditional African Spiritual sciences as such... I think you tend to project quite a bit in some of your posts brother.

quote:
Sister, all of the houses of Religion still remaining from the Mother Continent have suffered a degree of corrupton and deviation. At our height, the Heirophant in the mysteries could summon the weather, The Heirophant could travel without moving, The Heirogrammat could display the full history of the Asiatic realm delving deep into remote antiquities...


Have you been to Ile Ife or the Benin Voudun festival? You may be surprised.

quote:
We have lost the fullness our our practice and we require a return road back into our "Right" mind. The people of Kemet believed in the "All in All" "All Law" Allah as we in the NOI see this reality. Allah has established a (Re) ligion leading us back into our original state. A state of Peace, Freedom, Justice, and Equality...


Ok. you are starting to sound like an X-tian now. Are you saying that the NOI is the only way to do this? Isn't that quite arrogant and exclusionary?

quote:
The caucasian came into our West African Kingdoms and tricked our Chiefs, they tricked our Baba-lawo, they gathered them on boats and beat them until they rejected the Orishas...[/quopte]

Not quite, otherwise it would never have made it over here, and for the ones that did reject our Spiritual sciences(Ifa is not just about the Orishas dear)... The same can be said about those who were brought over here who rejected Allah.

[quote]They molested our children and mutilated their spiritual receptors until they could no longer speak their own language which was a language of righteousness and union with the divine world.

The correction cannot be a simple reintroduction into the very system which we were stolen out of, and tricked within..


We weren't tricked within. We were kidnapped and colinized. The spiritual science is still maintained in Ile Ife. Yorubaland priests=political figures fought the colinization and slavetrade from entering our West African homeland for 200+ years. This infiltration was assisted by the Fulani Jihadists that we were fighting form the North BTW. They helped destabalioze West Africa making it easier for the Europeans to get a foothold. In fact, some assisted in setting up the European slave trade in it's infancy since the trade in African infidels had already been well established(Tipo Tibb).

quote:
The Arab is a non-issue for me...The arab is packaging for me...The Arab is coating on a pill nothing more...[/qupte]

The Arab is not needed at all for me and many others.

[quote]When Auset travelled into the land of Cedars to awaken her beloved husband she wore a disguise...So that she could travel unnoticed into the heart to speak Hekau into the mind of her fallen King...The return to our greatness comes like a theft..It is secretly, and carefully placed under cover To avoid full detection by Set, and his Setian soldiers, who rule the land of Ausar. Both subjectively true for the mind, and literally true on the earth..Set rules both planes. It has been his Hour...


On this we agree, maybe that is why some think that all Ifa and other traditional trods are about is Orisha worship. Secrecy is primary for the uninitated.

quote:
I have to go...I will answer your question relating to NOI Divination systems this evening.

Kai


Looking forward to it.
Peace.....



quote:
LOL, for real? Tell that to all the Aborishas. Do you really think Omo Ifa Wale (children who have returned to Ifa) aren't repairing the psychological/ economic/political damage of slavery? I think this was a broadly ignorant and arrogant statement to make as a non Aborisha, and as a fellow African liberation supporter in general. I wouldn't make such an insulting statement about the NOI whatsoever, even if we have disagreements about religion/spirituality.



I do not mean to insult you or any of those who study our African systems of spirituality. If I have then please accept my apology.

What I am trying to convey is the idea that when the spiritual alchemist confronts a disease of the mind he must engineer a system which will penetrate into the core of the disease. 0

Frantz Fanon spoke of a disease of the mind called "Violence beyond violence". This form of brutalization is inflicting on a people by subjecting them to a an alien worldview which counters the peoples existing and natural system of living. This form of violence against the peop;e destroys like a violent sand storm shredding the people in a counter wind of living in opposition to their own nature.

The African mind remade into a Necro mind, or Dead mind. had to receive a call for someone who could speak the language of the dead. The pattern for a return from the plains of death required the synthesizing of a message composed of the diesase and the pure form of the healthy way of life.

Do not mistake my point here, I am not saying that the belid system provided within Islam as taught by The Honorable Elijah Muhammad is poisonous, I am saying that within the doctrine or teachings there exists elements from a diseased system which are placed there to capture the attention of those who have fallen into a western view of life and even salvation.

Black people in America were dehumanized by maltreatment, malnutrition, and by being subjected to a false view of divine justice. We were sold on salvation after life..The idea of ressurection and redemption was very appealing and reassuring to a people who saw no hope and no real life in the earthly existence..

The one to come and provide a road back to their own mind had to come under the guise of what they were already expecting, a Saviour...He had to come teaching out of their book, the Bible...He had to come speaking a language that they would understand..Once inside the mind..Grand Architect could begin molding the mind, reshaping it back into it's proper and true form..

This is how Islam is designed..It speaks counter to the adverse trick played by a demon loosed upon this planet which has visited every civilization. We have been universally robbed, and our own Gods, under the unity of the one God, have placed agents or angels into the world to unravel the knot of deception. The name of this system is of unraveling is "Islam"..Islam is the medicine which leads us back into our own mind..After receiving Islam our people at large are prepared to revisit the spiritual sciences of our ancient people...

History bears witness to this claim...



Okay, I need to say that..And now I will return to your other question..But I wanted to let yu know that I meant no disrespect by my statements...



Kai
I am grateful for the conversation that you all have allowed me to witness. You engage in wise words with noble intentions. I am glad to see those who study Dr. Ben conversing with those who study The Honorable Elijah Muhammad in this way peacefully. I have already learned much and I hope to return the favor.

Thank you.
IMHO, Nothing about the Nation of Islam speaks Maat, but yet many of them claim Maat as the foundation. This is deceptive. I believe NOI serves a purpose, but Maat isn't it. I've read much of the Koran, and each time I feel the spirit of Herukhuti. It is passionate, and intense. Fit for battle, but not peace or balance. To achieve balance, NOI would have to be supplemented with some form of Taoist, or other far eastern principles. I honestly can't understand how anyone can find peace in any of the suras.

ok... I'm getting closer to my point, let Ra Un Nefer Amen briefly explain Herukhuti first.
quote:
HERUKHUTI



METU NETER Vol. 1, Pg. 226



Herukhuti, also called Heru-Behutet, is the divine principle that safeguards our existence from the injustices of others. It works sternly through the law that states that you reap what you sow. Be consistent in being just with others, and you will be spiritually protected by this divine power.



Its aggressive power is also the foundation of the temperament of natural athletes, warriors, business executives, and so on.



In the Kamitic tradition, it is the form in which Heru fights against Set in order to regain the throne (control over one's life) that the latter usurped. The seeming contradiction that arises from considering Heru-Behutet "a form of Heru" is cleared up when we realize that ultimately there is only one Deity in the world, with different faculties. While Heru corresponds to the steady supply of noradrenalin that enables us to carry out all activities of externalization, Herukhuti (Heru-Behutet) corresponds to the extreme surges of adrenalin that support our aggressive, sexual arousal and immune responses.



© Ra Un Nefer Amen



Almost there, but first this issue
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Black people in America were dehumanized by maltreatment, malnutrition, and by being subjected to a false view of divine justice. We were sold on salvation after life..The idea of ressurection and redemption was very appealing and reassuring to a people who saw no hope and no real life in the earthly existence..

The one to come and provide a road back to their own mind had to come under the guise of what they were already expecting, a Saviour...He had to come teaching out of their book, the Bible...He had to come speaking a language that they would understand..Once inside the mind..Grand Architect could begin molding the mind, reshaping it back into it's proper and true form..

This is how Islam is designed..It speaks counter to the adverse trick played by a demon loosed upon this planet which has visited every civilization. We have been universally robbed, and our own Gods, under the unity of the one God, have placed agents or angels into the world to unravel the knot of deception.


Christianity is guilty of appealing to the emotions(not spirits... I guess) of slaves, taking full advantage of their harsh conditions which created an atmosphere of intellectually vunerable, and spiritually gullible blacks. Susceptible to anything were these blacks. We accepted, and assimilated, but yet we grew restless. So under the guise of peace and afrocentricity, through charismatic propaganda, Islam took advantage of the emotional discontentment, intellectual fervor to find a God that appealed specifically to us and our condition, capped off by a spiritual unrest.

Under normal African conditions, we would neither be wholly Christian nor Islamic. So I don't believe these false angels, or agents that come bearing EARTHLY promises.

quote:
After receiving Islam our people at large are prepared to revisit the spiritual sciences of our ancient people...


So is Islam now claiming patents on Ancient African spiritual sciences and knowledge? Doesn't seem any different than what the Greeks have done. The earliest Islamic contribution I've seen are dated around 728 A.D.

But...
quote:
The cryptic codes of ancient Africa are analysed in this technical publication to give insight about the development of the oldest calendar and the ancient science of astronomy. A proof of the Pythagorean Theorem is given, which suggests it might have originated as early as 4000 B.C.



Excerpt
A variation of the YELLOW RIVER DIAGRAM apparently arose in Central Africa. It was preserved in the ancient divination system, IFA. The Odu of Ifa was considered a very sacred image and is reminiscent of the mandala. It was made of a calabash and had a lid. It contained four shallow depressions or small vessels. One contained a little charcoal, another contained chalk, another contained camwood and the fourth contained a little mud. Mud is a type of "earth," charcoal is a type of burnt woor or carbon, (traditionally asociated with "fire"), camwood is a substance consisting of a certain percentage of "water" and chalk is a soft, porous metal. So the Odu of Ifa was a representation of the Egyptian diagram called the PRINCIPLE OF OPPOSITES

Thank you again for the lessons you are teaching.

I believe the Laws of Ma'at and the Mazaan are rooted in the same principals of Supreme Balance and reciprocity. I believe the allogorical charachters of Kemet, Alkebolan, Torah, Injeel & Quran bear historically and metephysically on the various aspects of the Nature of the Supreme, and the mortal levels of conscious and subconscious thought & actions.

Algebra (from the Arabic Al-Jabara) is the reunion of broken pieces (scattered bones of the Black civilization) - a Problem that cannot be solved. Reunification (Resurrection) was the focus of the foundation of Islam in the 1930's when it was taught in the West. Just as in the gathering by Isis of the dismembered body of Ausar, to draw Horus from his body. Fard represents Isis' effort to bring life back to the Black man & woman in the West.

Each have played their own part to bring life to you. We honor them, as We honor you for the effort you represent today. There is an unbroken string, which connects back to the Eternal Immortal. We are all a part of it, as were the many who came before us.

The point being; what is the purpose of this experience, and what is the meaning of this life. Simultaneously (Parenthetically) there are other Planes of existence; some higher, some lower. I am seeking to join onto the Highest manifestation of existence by particpating in this dialog.

Once again I thank you for allowing me to witness this discourse.
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
IMHO, Nothing about the Nation of Islam speaks Maat, but yet many of them claim Maat as the foundation. This is deceptive. I believe NOI serves a purpose, but Maat isn't it. I've read much of the Koran, and each time I feel the spirit of Herukhuti. It is passionate, and intense. Fit for battle, but not peace or balance. To achieve balance, NOI would have to be supplemented with some form of Taoist, or other far eastern principles. I honestly can't understand how anyone can find peace in any of the suras.

ok... I'm getting closer to my point, let Ra Un Nefer Amen briefly explain Herukhuti first.
quote:
HERUKHUTI



METU NETER Vol. 1, Pg. 226



Herukhuti, also called Heru-Behutet, is the divine principle that safeguards our existence from the injustices of others. It works sternly through the law that states that you reap what you sow. Be consistent in being just with others, and you will be spiritually protected by this divine power.



Its aggressive power is also the foundation of the temperament of natural athletes, warriors, business executives, and so on.



In the Kamitic tradition, it is the form in which Heru fights against Set in order to regain the throne (control over one's life) that the latter usurped. The seeming contradiction that arises from considering Heru-Behutet "a form of Heru" is cleared up when we realize that ultimately there is only one Deity in the world, with different faculties. While Heru corresponds to the steady supply of noradrenalin that enables us to carry out all activities of externalization, Herukhuti (Heru-Behutet) corresponds to the extreme surges of adrenalin that support our aggressive, sexual arousal and immune responses.



© Ra Un Nefer Amen



Almost there, but first this issue
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Black people in America were dehumanized by maltreatment, malnutrition, and by being subjected to a false view of divine justice. We were sold on salvation after life..The idea of ressurection and redemption was very appealing and reassuring to a people who saw no hope and no real life in the earthly existence..

The one to come and provide a road back to their own mind had to come under the guise of what they were already expecting, a Saviour...He had to come teaching out of their book, the Bible...He had to come speaking a language that they would understand..Once inside the mind..Grand Architect could begin molding the mind, reshaping it back into it's proper and true form..

This is how Islam is designed..It speaks counter to the adverse trick played by a demon loosed upon this planet which has visited every civilization. We have been universally robbed, and our own Gods, under the unity of the one God, have placed agents or angels into the world to unravel the knot of deception.


Christianity is guilty of appealing to the emotions(not spirits... I guess) of slaves, taking full advantage of their harsh conditions which created an atmosphere of intellectually vunerable, and spiritually gullible blacks. Susceptible to anything were these blacks. We accepted, and assimilated, but yet we grew restless. So under the guise of peace and afrocentricity, through charismatic propaganda, Islam took advantage of the emotional discontentment, intellectual fervor to find a God that appealed specifically to us and our condition, capped off by a spiritual unrest.

Under normal African conditions, we would neither be wholly Christian nor Islamic. So I don't believe these false angels, or agents that come bearing EARTHLY promises.

quote:
After receiving Islam our people at large are prepared to revisit the spiritual sciences of our ancient people...


So is Islam now claiming patents on Ancient African spiritual sciences and knowledge? Doesn't seem any different than what the Greeks have done. The earliest Islamic contribution I've seen are dated around 728 A.D.

But...
quote:
The cryptic codes of ancient Africa are analysed in this technical publication to give insight about the development of the oldest calendar and the ancient science of astronomy. A proof of the Pythagorean Theorem is given, which suggests it might have originated as early as 4000 B.C.



Excerpt
A variation of the YELLOW RIVER DIAGRAM apparently arose in Central Africa. It was preserved in the ancient divination system, IFA. The Odu of Ifa was considered a very sacred image and is reminiscent of the mandala. It was made of a calabash and had a lid. It contained four shallow depressions or small vessels. One contained a little charcoal, another contained chalk, another contained camwood and the fourth contained a little mud. Mud is a type of "earth," charcoal is a type of burnt woor or carbon, (traditionally asociated with "fire"), camwood is a substance consisting of a certain percentage of "water" and chalk is a soft, porous metal. So the Odu of Ifa was a representation of the Egyptian diagram called the PRINCIPLE OF OPPOSITES



Oft repeated in these dialogues...

Please separate the term Islam- a principled state of being...

from the interpretations of Islam by and the actions of Arab Culture....



Salaam...

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