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This may have already been discussed, but a recent study by the nonpartisan Bay Area Center for Voting Research (BACVR), concluded that to be liberal in America really means to be black. They concluded that that the true divide in America is not red vs. blue states or republicans vs. democrats, but rather, black vs. white. Surprise, Surprise...who would have thought this to be true? Of course I am being facetious in my display of dumfound.

The exit polls of the 2004 election showed 70 percent of whites voted republican while nearly 90 percent of black voted democratic. This dichotomy definitely shows a difference of perspective for the general rule of whites vs. the general rule of blacks. Black folks have been equating the republican vote with racism every since Southern democratic segregationalist abdicated the party in the 60's in opposition to civil rights. Black folks are not fools....at least most are not.

When racism became against the law and enforced, the only way to manifest racist goals is via the politics of denial. We all know before the civil rights passage, Jim Crow was all about denial. Denial of the right to vote through intimidation and other factors, denial from the attendance of good schools, denial of good paying jobs, denial of good accommodations in public places, denial, denial, denial. However, when that became illegal, the only legal conduit to denial was through politics.

Post civil rights passage, liberalism slowly grew into a code word black aspirations among many whites. The label working definition was thus transformed in the hearts and minds of many white Americans to be government policies and monies aimed at and or disproportionately going to black people. This needed to be denied and to carry forth the traditional anti black objective of many whites.

The label of "liberal" allowed whites to vehemently attack black aspiration, needs and initiatives, without being seen as attacking black and hence, being seen as racist. This was important because being seen or labeled as a racist was slowly becoming a scarlet letter placed upon a guilty party. Racism had gone underground or in the closet and the "Down Low" practice of racism thus manifested through the body politic as anti-liberal, which was a code word for anti-black.

All the passion you see white folks manifesting over politics is mostly about race, for the most part. Now matter how much a white republican claims to be repulsed by liberals, when a white liberal moves into their community or start infiltrating their kids school or dating their children, you will not see a "white republican flight" from these communities. However, when a black person moves into that same community, whether democrat or republican, many white folks start worrying about property value and the direction that the community and schools are going and are thus ready to entertain thoughts of moving.

Magic is essentially the work of master of illusion accomplished via misdirecting one's attention away from how things really work. America is full of magician and many people are credulous in there marvel. Politics and tricks concerning liberal vs. conservative is a magician's trick hiding the black white dichotomy and opposition. The illusion presented is that America is a less racist nation, in black and white, than it actually is.

I recently read a powerful quote from one Winston Churchill a pivotal and often quoted leader in Europe (Britain) during the Second World War. Quote: The farther back you look, the farther ahead you can see.

The wisdom of that quote is born from the understanding that there is nothing new under the sun, especially in regards to human behavior and proclivities. There was a reason or motive that white Americans were anti black for so long. I venture to guess that like most things, those reasons and motives were rooted in economics. Thus, when we look father ahead into the future and the decline of America, likely those economic reasons and motives for being anti black will simply retrigger anti black behaviorism, which has only been in remission and on the "Down Low".
Vita vya panzi (ni) furaha ya kunguru. War among grasshoppers delights the crow. Msema kweli hana wajoli. The speaker of truth has few friends. ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( Noah The African in America
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They concluded that that the true divide in America is not red vs. blue states or republicans vs. democrats, but rather, black vs. white. Surprise, Surprise...who would have thought this to be true?---Noah the African

Upon examination of the famous red/blue map(s) of 2004's election, it becomes clear that red does indeed equate to 'white.'

Witha little bit of 'steering' by 'black' Christians.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Upon examination of the famous red/blue map(s) of 2004's election, it becomes clear that red does indeed equate to 'white.'


I'm not sure it is so clear from the map. For example, Maine, Vermont, Connecticut Minnesota, Wisconsin, Washington, Oregon and Delaware? I wouldn't say that the black populations in those states pushed them into the "Blue" catagories. Why- because relatively speaking, there are barely any black people there (other than in Minneapolis/Saint Paul, Seattle, Portland, and Milwaukee which are all still overwhelmingly white.)

Noah's case could be made in the south where the shift can be more easily explained in the terms he presents.

By the way- welcome back Noah. Sorry to hear about your friend.

Added: Noah- where did you find the study you cited? (The Bay Area Center for Voting Research site is down.)
Marty, you can google the captions below as found on BACVR's site/articles:

New Study Ranks America's Most Liberal and Conservative Cities
http://yubanet.com/artman/publish/article_24165.shtml

Being Liberal Now Means Being African American
http://www.dogonvillage.com/african_american_news/Articles/00000228.html


Here's link to the 2004 Exit Polling:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

FYI, Black votes increased from 9% to 11% for Bush from 2000 to 2004. Whites had a 4% increase from those elections (54% for Bush to 58%).


... I've talked about this on another board...
Marty, I think what is important to understand is that whites, in the absence of blacks, have a tendency to lean liberal. There was a study done by some Harvard Scholars juxtaposing why Europeans are more pro social policies than are their American counterparts. The study concluded that the dominant reason for the discrepancy was racism. They showed that whites are more willing to accept social assistance when the recipients are whites, than when the recipients are non-white and black in particular. I apologize for not saving links to such studies.

That having been said, the States you mention are more liberal leaning for the simple fact that there are not a high percentage of blacks in those states. Almost without exception, if you show me a State with a high black numerical or percentage population, I will show you a State were the majority of whites are republican. States in the Great Lakes region, such as Michigan, Illinois, Ohio, have strong history of labor movements and Union membership where whites tend to vote heavily in favor of the Democrats. These are some of the most racist whites you will find in the country, as these regions are also the most segregated in the nation, primarily due to white racist behavior past and present. However, these white racist factory workers do not cut off their noses to spite their faces. In other words, even though they might be anti affirmative action and anti other policies and programs that they see as beneficial to blacks, they still vote democratic because of their labor interest.

Places like Utah are anomalies due to being heavily influenced by the Mormon Church, which only recently stopped preaching in the religion that blacks are inferior.
quote:
Black folks have been equating the republican vote with racism every since Southern democratic segregationalist abdicated the party in the 60's in opposition to civil rights. Black folks are not fools....at least most are not.



The same Blacks who want to start the clock on racism in the 60's rather than admit that the DEMOCRATIC PARTY was the key suppressor of Black people both in Slavery and during Jim Crow and in fact were the POLITICAL ARM OF THE KKK show their HYPOCRACY by seeking to sue Banks and Insurance companies who have been in existence since slavery times.

You see these companies, despite having a new management team and employment of Black people - THEY SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR PAST "ORGANIZATIONAL ACTIONS".

The DEMOCRATIC PARTY, on the other hand despite the fact that they have been a on going concern through slavery and Jim Crow SHOULD NOT BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR PAST TERRORISM AGAINST BLACKS.

You have to understand, Noah - Some folks don't want to piss off their "Permanent Friends" by having conflict over their "Permanent Interests" so they tuck their "Permanent Interests" in their pockets - going along to get along.
Noah:

I love the broad and over-reaching claims that you make that are so full of holes.

I posted a while back the study of "Neighorhood TURNING POINTS". This is the point at which Whites begin to move out of a community when a certain percentage of non-White begin to move in. The last study put this number at 42%.

I would have you note that they didn't say CONSERVATIVE WHITES. They said ALL WHITES.

So this means liberals like Ted Kennedy, the A+ Senator on the NAACP Legislative Report Card to Hillary Clinton who lives in a big house in an all White community in New York. (Chapiqua, NY).

So many of you are so crisp and clean in your attacks against White conservaties and the Republican Party.

Your message is so full of holes as you can't bring yourselves to see that White Liberals ain't going to hug you when your Black behind comes home as a date for their daughter.

Most of their programs are mere crubs that is just enough to keep you from rioting and to secure your LOYAL VOTE but CERTAINLY not enough for you to be made whole.

In my view it is going to take the Reparations Movement to demand that each member of congress to go on record with their VIEWS for you all to see the truth about your beloved White Liberal Democrats.
If our message is full of holes, you prove yourself to be ill equipped to plug the holes. Because [they] the group that did the study did not bother to break down the 42% based upon political affiliation. It may be the case that 90% of those whites who moved were indeed political conservatives. Thus, you filled no holes brothers.

Again, if black conservatives are condemning white liberals as racist and harmful to blacks and black liberals or condemning white conservatives as racist and harmful to blacks, the common denominator proves the true divide. If you are not intelligent enough to see the common denominator, then let me state it for you.... ITS WHITE FOLKS.

The study concluded the same thing, which is the fact that the true divide in America is and has always been the racial divide between blacks and whites.
quote:
If you are not intelligent enough to see the common denominator, then let me state it for you.... ITS WHITE FOLKS



Is it "White folks" or the Black folks who can't have an ORGANIZATIONAL MEETING WITHOUT A CENTRAL FOCUS ON WHITE FOLKS and PHAROH?

I just don't understand you Noah. I make it a point to sample all types of political perspectives and various social forums.

Without fail most Black forums will have "DE WHITE MAN" as the guest of honor even though there is no White folks in the audience. He will be the main subject. The names of "Condi, Clarence and Connerly" are sure to come up as well.

I come as an analyist and a critic, seeking answers but NOT willing to "Get in where I fit in". It is shameful in my view how weak and transparent some of the so called "Black leaders" who get up on stage and talk to the masses are. Their tactics are tired and in need of reform.

Your entire "Liberal = Black" concept does not hold water. There is an ABUNDANCE of White that are died in the wool LIBERALS.

You throw out PERCENTAGES but don't acknowledge that, for example 40% of White folks in America is still larger than 90% of Black folks when represented in real numbers.

The only hope for TRANSFORMATION for Black people is to shift from a model of "Unity" to one of "EFFECTIVENESS". The down side of "Unity" is that it is threatened by those who challenge the platform and seek A CORRECTED COURSE BASED ON THE OUTCOME that they can use as evidence of current failure".

Forced "Unity" is no different than what Al Sharpton and others opposed when they were asked to "wrap themselves in the Flag" after 9/11 and be patriotic, not asking too many questions. Amazingly enough - they have learned well from their oppressors as THIS IS THE VERY MODE THAT THEY OPERATE IN WITH RESPECT TO INTERNAL DESENTION WITHIN THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

The perspective of the Black person - Liberal or Conservative will ALWAYS be different than that of the White of the same ideology. Even if a Black man lays down each night with a White woman they will have a different view of the world and the world them.

In my personal view "Black consciousness" has been HI-JACKED BY "Black Democrats in Civil Rights Leaders Cothing".

I seek to TAKE OUR CONSCIOUSNESS BACK!!!

http://www.blackthinktank.com/
Dah white man is not simply the worry of da black man....but also the worry of the Native American and most non white peoples of the world who fear "Western" economic, military and cultural imperalism and supremacy. Essentially attacks against the "West" are attacks against the policies of white run nations.

You are not worried about da white man, because you have decided that if you can't beat da white man, then win favor by attempting to join da white man.
And I say fuck the WHO'S THE BETTER WHITE MAN GAME... with all the decontextualized, disingenuous and deranged logic of C-Feed Inc.

"your beloved White Liberal Democrats"

WTF is that? BOTH are racist. PERIOD!
And, C-Feed? CAN YOU READ?
quote:
However, these white racist factory workers do not cut off their noses to spite their faces. In other words, even though they might be anti affirmative action and anti other policies and programs that they see as beneficial to blacks, they still vote democratic because of their labor interest.
quote:
Black folks have been equating the republican vote with racism every since Southern democratic segregationalist abdicated the party in the 60's in opposition to civil rights. Black folks are not fools...
Ummm... That's direct attention paid to the "Democratic" and racist history of the "Democratic Party" pre-60's.

And as for "Permanent Interests" in pockets... Hmmm.... You didn't caution or have any concern about this with NBRA. You are the only HYPOCRITE here, CF.

And please... what White people (Left or White people) are you ever really "holding accountable" for anything CF with your jacked up views?
quote:
I would have you note that they didn't say CONSERVATIVE WHITES. They said ALL WHITES.

So this means liberals like Ted Kennedy, the A+ Senator on the NAACP Legislative Report Card to Hillary Clinton who lives in a big house in an all White community in New York. (Chapiqua, NY).

So many of you are so crisp and clean in your attacks against White conservaties and the Republican Party.
Where are the NAACP members on this board you're talking about in terms of "so many of you" and this A+ shit for Ted Kennedy. Point out and QUOTE a passage from the Ted Kennedy Fan Club here on AA.org or shut your PUNK ass up!

quote:
Most of their programs are mere crubs that is just enough to keep you from rioting and to secure your LOYAL VOTE but CERTAINLY not enough for you to be made whole.
PUNK!! Quit "borrowing" from the Black Nationalist/Pan African/African-Centered tradition, bastardizing every single thing said when the BLACK CONSERVATIVE as a political animal (either a party "loyalist" or whatever the hell your confused ass wants to be called) were playing CHURCH MOUSE.

.
Liberal politics has always been inclusive in nature and fostered gains for blacks in many areas due to vigorous efforts by black representatives over the years....all of our rights gained in the 60's and 70's came from the liberal side of the political spectrum, philosopically speaking...because liberal meant including previously disenfranchised and excluded groups whether it was economically, politcally or socially....and with that in mind....if liberal ever translates into pro-black policy....then call me a liberal....the rest of the time....call me early for dinner and not schit else.....
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

The same Blacks who want to start the clock on racism in the 60's rather than admit that the DEMOCRATIC PARTY was the key suppressor of Black people both in Slavery and during Jim Crow and in fact were the POLITICAL ARM OF THE KKK show their HYPOCRACY by seeking to sue Banks and Insurance companies who have been in existence since slavery times.


I believe we're discussing liberal versus conservative. There has never been a time in American history when conservatives have been friendly to African American interests.
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

I would have you note that they didn't say CONSERVATIVE WHITES. They said ALL WHITES.

So this means liberals like Ted Kennedy, the A+ Senator on the NAACP Legislative Report Card to Hillary Clinton who lives in a big house in an all White community in New York. (Chapiqua, NY).

So many of you are so crisp and clean in your attacks against White conservaties and the Republican Party.


Can you show me any post in this entire forum where someone has advocated blind allegience to ANY party or person here? Can you demonstrate where anyone has suggested that white liberals are the answer to African American prayers - particularly NTA?

You are responding to an argument that no one made.
I'm not sure it is so clear from the map. For example, Maine, Vermont, Connecticut Minnesota, Wisconsin, Washington, Oregon and Delaware? I wouldn't say that the black populations in those states pushed them into the "Blue" catagories. Why- because relatively speaking, there are barely any black people there (other than in Minneapolis/Saint Paul, Seattle, Portland, and Milwaukee which are all still overwhelmingly white.)---Marty

You're right.

In fact, I don't think 'black' populations have been shown to have carried the election for the Republican Party in any one State; acknowledging the negative impact of 'black' vote in Ohio.

My implication was/is that 'black' Christians played a pivotal role in the success of the Republican Party nationwide.

I don't have an argument for or against liberal vs conservative construction.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
You are not worried about da white man, because you have decided that if you can't beat da white man, then win favor by attempting to join da white man.


And I am sure that you were one of the protestors seeking to have Black people enter the University of Michigan so they could study with de White folks that YOU say that I am attempting to join. Please.

Are there any White folks protesting to get into Wayne State?
Black folks don't go to college to study with white folks; they go to college to study and white folks just happen to be there. The University of Michigan is one of the best colleges in the nation and having a degree from there is highly marketable.

The Majority of Wayne State University's 30 plus thousand students are white, probably 80% of them. What sense does it make to for them to protest to get in? You are making ass backwards statements....which is apropos for you.
quote:
However, these white racist factory workers do not cut off their noses to spite their faces. In other words, even though they might be anti affirmative action and anti other policies and programs that they see as beneficial to blacks, they still vote democratic because of their labor interest.


I am not a union laborer.

I am both a "professional employee" for a company and I own my own business as a consultant.

Could it be that MY INTERESTS are being served by my particular ideology? Or should I yeild and bow down to the interests of the popular ideology in Black America?

Rather than have me drawn by a GRAVITATIONAL PULL how about INSPECTING these policies and match them against the real need in Black America? On a near daily basis you hear someone demanding a JOB on a Black radio talk show. IS IT POSSIBLE THAT AT LEAST SOME OF YOUR POLICIES THAT FAVOR LABOR ARE ALSO A THREAT TO THOSE WHO PUT ON THE HAT OF A BUSINESS OWNER AND ATTEMPT TO CREATE JOBS?

Why do you cast all Blacks as LABORERS? Not admitting that each of have differing interests?

As I have said before - many of you believe that the NAACP Legislative Report Card is a valid evaluation of those who stand "For Civil Rights" and those who stand "Against Civil Rights" AT LEAST WITH RESPECT TO THE NAACP'S DEFINITION OF WHAT "CIVIL RIGHTS" and the Best Interests of Black people are.

As quite as it is kept MANY special interests groups publish "Legislative Report Cards". Many of these groups are the biggest producers of JOBS in this country. Why is it not logical to make use of THEIR GRADES for elected oficials in determining who you will support as they also support JOB CREATION as you demand?

Sadly some of the very people who score high on the "NAACP" report card conversely score very low with these job creation folks - American Association of Manufacterers, Amer. Assoc of General Contractors, US Chamber of Commerce. Other groups include "Americans for Tax Payers Rights", "Tax Payer's Union" and other groups that seek to insure efficient us of their tax money paid in.


So again I ask - WHAT ARE REALLY YOUR INTERESTS? Are the interests that you THINK you have so clearly defined ACTUALLY being addressed by the groups that you so quickly fall in line with?

It seems to me that there needs to be some analysis made as to their EFFECTIVENESS at addressing your interests in the time period that you have offered them your loyal support thus far. Otherwise you may just be following them because you are appeased rather than supporting them because they have emperical data to show that they have indeed "worked in your best interests" and not just against your common enemies.
quote:
Liberal politics has always been inclusive in nature and fostered gains for blacks in many areas due to vigorous efforts by black representatives over the years


LEFTWING Liberal politics are very effective at collaborating with people who perceive themselves as VICTIMS against the "system".

The problem with this ideology is that they need you to REMAIN A VICTIM lest you depart from their nest.

The day that Black people who currently reside in America achieve the state of independence in all forms - their leaders at that time will NOT be standing on stage emphasizing the same messages that you are inclined to hear today. The VRA rally a few weeks ago, for example.

(Please note that I did not say that the Leaders of the future will be "Conservatives") The leaders of the future will have a more DIRECTED PURPOSE and a greater ability to MANAGE the systems of navigation toward this point.

They will be more FOR SOMETHING than AGAINST SOMETHING as the primary means of moving the people forward.
quote:
I believe we're discussing liberal versus conservative. There has never been a time in American history when conservatives have been friendly to African American interests.


The very definition of "Conservatives" would have them opposed to change and the loss of power.

In this regard I call Jesse Jackson and others "contextual conservaties" when it comes to following a "By Any Means Necessary" approach to insuring that Black students have access to the best education distribution possible. THEY choose to DEFEND the Educational Establishment and the current power structure.

Again - your very definition tells me that "CONSERVATIVISM" as a label REALLY MEANS NOTHING.

I AM A FEW STEPS AHEAD OF YOU - Please note that I have consciously asked you all to focus on EFFECTIVENESS in certain policies to have you achieve your stated goals rather than to hide behind LABELS!!!!!

My question has been for the longest - "Did the Progressive Policies implemented by President Johnson and others build a stronger framework within the Black community or did it alter the fundemental relationship and interdependency between Black men and Black women and thus injure us at the CULTURAL level because there was no warning label on how MUCH to consume beyond what you really need for ASSISTANCE and be cautious of the TIME PERIOD that you consume it because you risk addiction and the loss of knowledge of how to operate absent this system?

Answer this TRUTHFULLY and then you will have some perspective on where I stand.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:

Can you show me any post in this entire forum where someone has advocated blind allegience to ANY party or person here? Can you demonstrate where anyone has suggested that white liberals are the answer to African American prayers - particularly NTA?

You are responding to an argument that no one made.


MBM:

The contents of so many of people's ideology and their focus of attacks show them for who they really are.

I recall when I first joined this board you advocated A LIVING WAGE policy.
This view in itself serves to plot you at a specific point on the ideological spectrum.

I can agree with the basic sentiment that Black people with respect to the average socioeconomic standing will tend to fall within a given cluster on the ideological spectrum in the area of economics. This will then translate to the tendecy to vote for the party that tends to support policies that offer more support within this area. If it were this cut and dry I would have no problem with the current percentages of Blacks who vote Democratic.

Instead what you have are Black Democrats who take the next step and suggest that the BLACK RACE will benefit when the Democratic Party benefits from electorial success, thus they FUSE the interests of Black people to the best interests of the Democratic Party. These are who I call "Black Democrats in Civil Rights Leaders Clothing". Their objective remains clear.

The fact is that the White Liberal is not going to provide the ultimate solution to the Black Man's development either. The Black man standing up on both feet around the world will be a threat similar to the country of China or the entire Asian region standing tall and becoming a force to be reconned with.

I do credit the White liberal, however. He knows that he can comprimise a bit by providing JUST ENOUGH resources to keep Black Americans from rioting but not enough in which we can claim to be free. In exchange for this they gain POWER because they now have a group that will loyally vote for them.

As long as these Blacks don't begin to see THEM as a part of the same system and demand REPARATIONS, for example, this relationship can continue. Ask every person in the Senate to enumerate their position on Reparations for American Slavery and you will have the most dramatic eye opening to date.

If the concept of "permanent interests not permanent friends" is in really in operation within our community it is hard to see it as we get lost in this FALSE DICHOTOMY of American politics - Demo and GOP.
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:
quote:
I believe we're discussing liberal versus conservative. There has never been a time in American history when conservatives have been friendly to African American interests.


The very definition of "Conservatives" would have them opposed to change and the loss of power.


So - are you apologizing for conservative racism , classism, and oppression? Really? You're OK with being a conservative now while admitting that conservatives have been against the advancement of anyone other than themselves?

Conservatism is a self-centered, arrogant, fear driven ideology. It's so easy to cheat and steal your way into the lead, and then cry "conservatism" to try to retain your ill-begotten lead.

How do you rationalize and justify your support of this ideology? Beyond that, how can you, with any seriousness, expect African Americans to get behind this ideology? ek

quote:
In this regard I call Jesse Jackson and others "contextual conservaties" when it comes to following a "By Any Means Necessary" approach to insuring that Black students have access to the best education distribution possible. THEY choose to DEFEND the Educational Establishment and the current power structure.


Huh? What represents a "by any means necessary" approach? Why is that conservative? Was it conservative when Denmark Vescey planned a huge slave uprising in Charleston, SC? THAT was 'by any means necessary'! That, however, had nothing to do with conservatism!

BTW - if you call choosing to work to FIX the public school system (as opposed to gut it) working within the "current power structure" - then so be it. Should black people just completely drop out of mainstream American society because it has not optimized our lot here, or should we work within the "current power structure"?

Not sure I understand your logic.

quote:
Again - your very definition tells me that "CONSERVATIVISM" as a label REALLY MEANS NOTHING.


Are you being self analytical? I have not defined anything here. All I said was that conservatism has never been a frioend to black people. BTW - apparently you agreed.

quote:
I AM A FEW STEPS AHEAD OF YOU - Please note that I have consciously asked you all to focus on EFFECTIVENESS in certain policies to have you achieve your stated goals rather than to hide behind LABELS!!!!!


Friend, perhaps this will sink in at some point in your stay with us. NO ONE HERE CARES ABOUT LABELS BUT YOU. THERE ARE NO MEMBERS HERE WHO BLINDLY SUPPORT ANY PARTY. Furthermore, Black America knows full well that Democrats are not THE answer. They are at the moment, however, the BETTER option!

Black people have already demonstrated their ability to vote their interests. As you know, when it was in our benefit to vote Republican - WE DID! When that was no longer the case - WE STOPPED AND VOTED DEMOCRAT. What would make you think we would somehow now be incapable of what we have already proven that we can do in the past??? Confused

Instead of bemoaning the lack of black support for conservative causes and ideas, why not work to create a set of conservative principles that are squarely in our interests?

quote:
My question has been for the longest - "Did the Progressive Policies implemented by President Johnson and others build a stronger framework within the Black community or did it alter the fundemental relationship and interdependency between Black men and Black women and thus injure us at the CULTURAL level because there was no warning label on how MUCH to consume beyond what you really need for ASSISTANCE and be cautious of the TIME PERIOD that you consume it because you risk addiction and the loss of knowledge of how to operate absent this system?


So to you, the black family was pristine prior to Johnson? Johnson destroyed the black family? Ever heard of slavery? You know they bought and sold us like cattle then? Do you know that the black man is always 'public enemy number one' in America? Are the drugs that 'medicate' us grown and processed in the hood? Do you place any blame with regard to our current position here on America's over-all historical treatment of Africans in America?

Johnson responded to needs in America. How would you have responded to them? What would you have done differently?

Do you honestly think that Barry Goldwater would have been BETTER for us? Really?
quote:
So - are you apologizing for conservative racism , classism, and oppression? Really? You're OK with being a conservative now while admitting that conservatives have been against the advancement of anyone other than themselves?

Conservatism is a self-centered, arrogant, fear driven ideology. It's so easy to cheat and steal your way into the lead, and then cry "conservatism" to try to retain your ill-begotten lead.

How do you rationalize and justify your support of this ideology? Beyond that, how can you, with any seriousness, expect African Americans to get behind this ideology? ek


Careful - tricky one.

Do you believe that the Harvard or Princeton White Liberals are free from Classism, Racism and Elitism?

I still maintain that the term "Black Conservative" means nothing outside of a specific context.

quote:
Conservatism is a self-centered, arrogant, fear driven ideology.


Really? How do you come to this conclusion?

Do you believe that T.O. with the Philadelphia Eagles is "self-centered" and thus a conservative? You make no sense man.

"Arrogant"? Do you think that the many Liberal Actors in Holliwood express no "arrogance" about them? What about the Players who walk our streets? They all must be conservatives, right?

"Fear"?
What did you hear on the stage in Atlanta a few weeks ago but FEAR MONGERING, MBM?
Warning "Your VOTE is going to be stolen". "Your rights to freedom are going to be taken away".
How is it that you say that these negative attributes are some exclusive provience of "conservatism"?

Black people in America have had problems with RACISTS - NOT JUST "CONSERVATIVES".
As I told Noah - the study that looked at the "turning point" for Whites to depart a community did not say WHITE CONSERVATIVES. It said WHITE FOLKS!!!!

You seem to live in Atlanta - take a visit to the BuckHead villiage tonight and see how the presence of MORE BLACK FOLKS causes all of the YOUNG WITH LIBERALS to depart for greener pastures.

I am not sure if you are willing to fight RACISM beyond your ideological cubby hole.


Any "conservative" values that I have show themselves in my beliefs that:

1) Solid Black families need to be promoted as the IDEAL framework - which does not mean that we bash those who don't live in this situation but at the same time when the percentages are out of wack as they are today we don't PRETEND that there is no problem.

2) Education is the fundemental means toward CONSCIOUSNESS in the community but we are not going to change our educational situation without TAKING LOCAL CONTROL OF OUR SCHOOLS to achieve some directed outcome

3) Local economic development will provide the life blood for the Black accommunity to acheive these other two elements and we need to consider our own economic decisions and not just focus on what the White House is doing in this realm even through certaining national politics are important. We need to improve our ABSOLUTE position economically by having some clear, internal elements to build upon. This growth will show up in the RELATIVE measure that we often react to when compared to other races.


In that sense MBM - I am NOT a "Black Conservative". I am a CULTURAL STRATEGIST.

I am not "protecting the current power structure" but I am not attempting to destory the framework either - a frame work that we all live within just not at the rungs that we wish to.

The Asian markets that I keep referring to make use of American roads and fuel that is refined in America to transport the goods to this market. While they may be independent in the sense that they are not Wal-Mart or Safeway or Kroger - they are still "inter-dependent on America".

I get frustrated by people, in their rhetoric, renounce America with their mouths but are hearty consumers according to their bank statements.
I contend that the conservative values that you articulate are really not conservative - or liberal. They are human. We all want better lives. Stronger families, better education, and better jobs, naturally, are at the core of that. It is in the strategies we adopt to achieve those objectives that our political ideologies shine forth.
quote:
So to you, the black family was pristine prior to Johnson? Johnson destroyed the black family? Ever heard of slavery? You know they bought and sold us like cattle then?



If you read the report by Moynihan you will note that he was alarmed at a 25% rate of unwed Black mothers. WE NOW HAVE MORE THAN 70%. Does this ring a wake up bell for you?

Which set of Black folks had a greater claim to SLAVERY? The folks back in the 1920's WHEN THERE WERE ACTUALLY PEOPLE HOW HAD BEEN SLAVES still alive back then yet their families were intact OR YOU LIVING TODAY?

I cannot accept the "Slavery Excuse" for you to predict that a Black child born today, a Black child born 30 years from now a Black child born 60 years from now and a Black child born 90 years from now will be negatively impacted from SLAVERY.

This points to the FAILURE of the METHODS OF TRANSFORMATION that need to be in place in our community!
If you can make this prediction now yet YOU and others do nothing to remove yourself from this "kryptonite" who's radiation is killing you and WILL KILL THESE CHILDREN 90 YEARS FROM NOW then you can be charged with abdicating your responsibilies to make a world that is safer for them.

INSTEAD some of us seek to change the basic properties of this KRYPTONITE, hoping that one day it will change it's basic function and won't harm us so at this kryptonite seeks to perpetuate itself as well.

As an American consumer we enjoy the green light that this kryptonite puts out, allowing us to see at night and to comfort us with it's warmth during a period of cold. To depart from it's immediate presence would me that we would have to build our own lights and our own heaters! It would mean that much of our political infrastructure that is currently fine tuned to change the behavior of the kryptonite would have to be transitioned over to SUPPORTING THE NEWLY INDEPENDENT AND SELF SUFFICIENT BLACK COMMUNITY.

The goal would be to RESTORE THE STANDARD OF LIVING THAT WE HAVE DEPARTED FROM as we appease those who have a CONSUMER mentality and who have no tollerance for any degredation in our ready supply of resources despite the fact that they repudiated many of the policies that had been used to obtain these goods from around the world.

This is the challenge MBM. It is far more complex than the loyalies between LEFT AND RIGHT, Liberal and Conservaties that is often spoke of.

I dare to challenge the STATUS QUO and to go against the grain of the gravitational pull that is present within the Black community - providing guidance on how a BLACK MAN IN GOOD STANDING SHOULD THINK. Impress me with EFFECTIVENESS AT TRANSFORMATION, not by showing me HOW MANY BLACK PEOPLE THINK THE WAY THAT YOU DO AND THUS THEY MUST BE RIGHT.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
I contend that the conservative values that you articulate are really not conservative - or liberal. They are human. We all want better lives. Stronger families, better education, and better jobs, naturally, are at the core of that. It is in the strategies we adopt to achieve those objectives that our political ideologies shine forth.


This we can agree on my friend.

It then appears that we are debating over METHODOLOGY rather than END POINTS.

Which again comes back to my concept of EFFECTIVENESS.

If we both agree on the END POINT but the people who have power in the Black community promote a METHODOLOGY to get to this common end point and effectively shut out those, such as me, who are CRITICAL of their methodology IS THE BLACK COMMUNITY NOT BETTER SERVED BY HAVING SOME OBJECTIVE MEASURE OF THE SUCCESS OF THIS PARTICULAR METHOLOGY, discarding it if and when it is found to not be effective?

In my LONG DEBATES WITH Kevin - he points to the glories of Affirmative Action and how THIS PROGRAM has allowed the number of Black students to double during it's hey day. I say "GREAT!!!", but we have a problem my friend. The current AA rate is STILL TOO LOW when you consider the entire population of Black High School students and if they go to college or not. I then DARE TO SAY that a more EFFECTIVE AND COMPREHENSIVE strategy to develop MORE BLACK COLLEGE STUDENTS is through radical reform of our middle schools and high schools. By raising the ABSOLUTE educational attainment and proficiency of all Black students - you will have more Black students obtaining college admissions applications. Even those who choose not to go to college will be in possession of greater skills. This is a better scenario any way you look at it. IT IS HEAVIER LOAD TO LIFT THOUGH and will require much more cordination than we ever experienced before.

Where as the Civil Rights Movement was seeking a NEEDED CHANGE in our government, this movement will turn the focus internally and will seek a positive change from within using resources within. Those who are best at negative confrontation lack the proper vision and management skills to lead this effort. They need to be pushed aside.
Already own it.

As well as his book "Black Labor, White Wealth"

****************************


MBM:

Let me clarify a point before my usual attackers being to post.

You are correct that I may refer to myself or others as "Black Conservatives". This is more so due to applying a label that you and others understand.

With that said I have little in common with the motivations of a Ward Connerly or an Armstrong Williams. The first one opposes AA strictly on terms of absolute "racial neutralism" - I don't oppose it out right, only believe that there are more EFFECTIVE AND COMPREHENSIVE ways to transform the Black community and the fear with AA is that people will begin to FIGHT FOR IT rather than for Black Transformation - clearly some folks on this board suffer from it as they seem pacified by the tepid results of the program thus far.

Armstrong Williams and others are advocates for Republicans, I am not. I may have strong ideological beliefs that have me disagreeing with those who are more socialistic in nature. My opposition to policies that are in this array and thus will stem from Democrats more than Republicans should not be taken as me cheerleading for Republicans as if doing so will lead to better tidings for Black folks. It will not.

The fact is, however that the Democratic Party has fused with the Black people who hold power within the Black community and thus they have undue power within our community where as the Republicans don't have power but are working a targeted strategy to get some.

I support a fair fight for the Black vote. I can only make the other side try harder. I DO NOT support OUTSOURCING OUR SELF IDENTITY TO A PARTY with the hopes that having a particular American political party being successful will mean that BLACK PEOPLE ARE SUCCESSFUL in this country. This is pure strategic foolishness and has not proven to be the case in an ENDURING MANNER.
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive

The fact is, however that the Democratic Party has fused with the Black people who hold power within the Black community and thus they have undue power within our community where as the Republicans don't have power but are working a targeted strategy to get some.


It seems that the Republicans are trying to backdoor their way to black votes. They are courting black preachers - buying some off with Faith Based Initiative money - in an effort to create awareness and standing with us. Honestly, I can't think of one serious proposal, however, that directly addresses a core need of the black community. Repubs like to merely say that more jobs, less government etc. will help the black community. BS! I am waiting for a serious gesture - targeted directly at us - to earn our support. Look at the power that the Cuban American community has in S. FL. Look at the power that the Jews have. Come at us with serious proposals that address our unique concerns and they can earn votes.

BTW - with Colin Powell they missed a serious opportunity to do that.

quote:
I DO NOT support OUTSOURCING OUR SELF IDENTITY TO A PARTY with the hopes that having a particular American political party being successful will mean that BLACK PEOPLE ARE SUCCESSFUL in this country.


Honestly, I see no danger of this. Please let me know why this is a concern of yours. Again, we've demonstrated an ability to shift party loyalties in the past. I would think it FAR easier to do that in 2005 than 1940.
It seems that the Republicans are trying to backdoor their way to black votes. They are courting black preachers - buying some off with Faith Based Initiative money - in an effort to create awareness and standing with us. Honestly, I can't think of one serious proposal, however, that directly addresses a core need of the black community. Repubs like to merely say that more jobs, less government etc. will help the black community. BS! I am waiting for a serious gesture - targeted directly at us - to earn our support. Look at the power that the Cuban American community has in S. FL. Look at the power that the Jews have. Come at us with serious proposals that address our unique concerns and they can earn votes.

BTW - with Colin Powell they missed a serious opportunity to do that---MBM

This is the formula that has worked in the past; for both parties.

Now that the Republicans have discovered 'The Jesus Factor' it could get nasty.

But they do need a standard bearer for rebirth. Having a strong voice but not a candidate won't work.

Preachers also don't work.

Witness Reverend Pat.

It will be nasty in 2008, and maybe in '06.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
MBM - I am NOT a "Black Conservative". I am a CULTURAL STRATEGIST.
lol lol lol

Okay, Mr. Cultural Strategist, answer me this:
What are the tools needed for building one's Culture/Cultural House? And where do we stand with respect to an inventory of those tools? Are there tools we need to acquire? You know, especially if we're going to transform, develop and direct our culture the way we [you] want.

What are the tools that perpetually maintain CULTURE?


Certainly any "careful plan or method" (i.e. strategy) would not only have to take account of and assess the goals and conditions making the "strategy" necessary/desired but a STRATEGIST would have to, first and foremost, have to identify and have a keen awareness of the TOOLS he needs to possess and employ in order to fulfill the objectives of said "strategy".


Awaiting your comments, CF...
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In my LONG DEBATES WITH Kevin - he points to the glories of Affirmative Action and how THIS PROGRAM has allowed the number of Black students to double during it's hey day. I say "GREAT!!!", but we have a problem my friend. The current AA rate is STILL TOO LOW when you consider the entire population of Black High School students and if they go to college or not. I then DARE TO SAY that a more EFFECTIVE AND COMPREHENSIVE strategy to develop MORE BLACK COLLEGE STUDENTS is through radical reform of our middle schools and high schools. By raising the ABSOLUTE educational attainment and proficiency of all Black students - you will have more Black students obtaining college admissions applications. Even those who choose not to go to college will be in possession of greater skills. This is a better scenario any way you look at it. IT IS HEAVIER LOAD TO LIFT THOUGH and will require much more cordination than we ever experienced before.




*You talk all of this bullschit but still cannot explain why blacks would support a less effective policy outcome from the repeal of AA that worked less than AA itself was already working....if AA is what you all considered to be ineffective already....think about the logic there....no one takes a step backwards....in order to say they are moving forward...without having anything in place to help them go forward without going backwards....why would you make something work less when you already said wasn't working good enough...and say it is your intentions to make it work better CF? That is the most idiotic azz schit that can come out of a fools mouth........and that hurdle you face...explaining your on logic...is why I know you are not even qualified to try to scrutinize mine....that is like telling the parents next door that they do not make their kids study enough....but their kids have better grades than yours...relatively speaking on AA.....I get a C grade and you get an F grade in terms of the number of college grads during pre(what I support) & post(what you support) AA repeals......yet you are talking schit about my approach to black college enrollment.....wow.....I had to make it simple so you cannot play confused...if that explanation confuses you....go ahead and throw in the towel as a dumb azz who gave up on the battle to attain factual knowledge.........

I know you will find that logic confusing...as is the premise of your argument
quote:
What are the tools needed for building one's Culture/Cultural House? And where do we stand with respect to an inventory of those tools? Are there tools we need to acquire? You know, especially if we're going to transform, develop and direct our culture the way we [you] want.

What are the tools that perpetually maintain CULTURE?



What are the tools?

1) Clarity of Goals

2) Honesty about where you stand today (something that many folks don't have)

3) Planning ability to set up a path way to get there

4) Communications and Marketing skills to raise the awareness of these plans and to address any questions

5) Scientific Discipline to take measurements about your heading

6) Management skills to reorient your course

7) Democratic infrastructure to note that the methods that you have in place are not working and need to be PURGED and a new set of methods brought in. Beyond "Majority Domination" (ie: Minority suppression) is the concept of FACT BASED DEBATE and the Rule of Law and not of man.

Sounds like a CULTURAL STRATEGY to me.
Actually, though a list of important concepts (and so damn long in coming), sounds like MORE RHETORIC to me.

[1] CLARITY OF GOALS...
Mr. Strategists some clear GOALS/OBJECTIVES are what? Clear GOALS that are "democratically" vetted and in line with the Ultimate Objective.

Since everything hinges on this (#1), I'll let you lay out what the GOALS are and tell us what the Ultimate Objective is and how you define them and why you think they are meaningful to you with respect to your supposed "strategy".

I mean... when you're on some rant shit like this "Majority Domination vs. Minority Suppression" then we already know there is a huge fuckin' disconnect.

But, seriously, take Advance #2 and talk about this subject of GOALS and OBJECTIVES with some serious clarity. It's a topic that has been approached many times here but has on gone so far. Let's see if you can push it further, Mr. Strategist.

And FACT BASED DEBATE is about a lame, in terms of your being FAKE about it because you have little interest in talking about FACTS let alone earnestly DEBATING on anything... But, go ahead... Lay down "The Law". Speak to the structure or whatever you're talking about that affords such "democracy" so your sorry ass won't feel so "oppressed" and overwhelmed because you are, as KEVIN says, a damn ANOMALY amongst your people pumpin' the shit you do and wondering why.

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