This is for comments on a pretty interesting and important question: What Is African-American Culture and Where Is It Going?

This has been inspired by the concern-questions of EBONY and myself. The model for this discussion comes from Constructive Feedback aka The Cultural Strategist. First, here is my question to him and, following that, his answer and list of "Cultural TOOLS":
quote:
What are the tools needed for building one's Culture/Cultural House? And where do we stand with respect to an inventory of those tools? Are there tools we need to acquire? You know, especially if we're going to transform, develop and direct our culture the way we [you] want.

What are the tools that perpetually maintain CULTURE?


  • 1) Clarity of Goals

  • 2) Honesty about where you stand today (something that many folks don't have)

  • 3) Planning ability to set up a path way to get there

  • 4) Communications and Marketing skills to raise the awareness of these plans and to address any questions

  • 5) Scientific Discipline to take measurements about your heading

  • 6) Management skills to reorient your course

  • 7) Democratic infrastructure to note that the methods that you have in place are not working and need to be PURGED and a new set of methods brought in. Beyond "Majority Domination" (ie: Minority suppression) is the concept of FACT BASED DEBATE and the Rule of Law and not of man.
  • Now my idea of Cultural Tools would have been to speak to those things that would, out of all things, produce #3 - #6 such as a School/Education System that would foster amassive (re)education project with those things specifically targeted. A focus to acquire that "tool" and the Institutional Structure and Control needed to constantly reproduce people who possess #3 - #6.

    In terms of assessing that Inventory, no doubt we have a lot we have to "acquire"...

    That aside, C-Feed sets up a very good list. I'd like to see an in-depth discussion on #1, #2 and #7. Those are, no doubt, the most important things because all the "planning", all the communication, management and discipline directed somewhere Off Course is an ultimate waste (not absolute, but ultimate).
    • So what are some CLEAR GOALS WE CAN COME TO TERMS ON?

    • If we're honest? WHERE DO WE STAND TODAY with respect to those goals
      as we perceive them (and, also, after we come to terms...)?

    • How can we establish a "Democratic Infrastructure" where our leadership is held accountable and responsible for not meeting our goals... if, in fact, that is the case and if that is actually possible?

    • And what are the FACTS about our situation?
    Original Post
    So what are some CLEAR GOALS WE CAN COME TO TERMS ON?---Nmaginate

    Surprisingly, I have to stop, because I am challenge by the condition of 'come to terms on'.

    On first consideration, I have no idea.

    I'm surprised.

    When solving a problem, I like to consider only the things that are positive to achieving the goal. What are the positive things we can come to terms, agree, on?

    I am not pleased with how I have to start the list, but....

    1. Our color.

    We are, at least, finally agreed on the positive aspects of color as it is applied to us.

    2. Our citizenship.

    We are agreed on our citizenship. We will/do have pro's and con's on the quality and status, but agree that it is there.

    3. Our 'trans-societal' community.

    We agree that our presence in America's society is identifiable in all aspects, and at all levels, and in all geographical locations of American society, including all overseas locations of the flag.

    4. We can agree that our 'trans-societal' community is,and serves as, the safe-place for all Americans of 'common history and circumstance'.

    5. We can agree that we are the descendants of people of unknown African ancestry, wholly or in part.

    6. We believe we will agree that we are a people who are original to this country specifically as result of our unique 'history and circumstance.'

    7. I believe we can ultimately agree that this uniqueness of 'history and circumstance' makes us therefore unique as a people.

    8. We will agree that such uniqueness is the critical component to/for ethnicity.

    9. We should ultimately, therefore, be able to agree that the special place merits a name.

    10. We cannot then help but agree that the name of the place names us.

    I'll stop here for now.

    I am editing this above listing to be the building blocks of the goal of IDENTITY.



    If we're honest? WHERE DO WE STAND TODAY with respect to those goals
    as we perceive them (and, also, after we come to terms...)?


    How can we establish a "Democratic Infrastructure" where our leadership is held accountable and responsible for not meeting our goals... if, in fact, that is the case and if that is actually possible?


    And what are the FACTS about our situation?
    There are lots of goals:

    1.A larger amount of self-sufficency in regards to sustaining our economic well-being.

    2.Media outlets controlled and supported by us to counter the propaganda the mass media promotes

    3.An African or Black Centered school curriculum
    so that our children can know themselves. And also an adult education program so that their parents can know themselves as well. This can be done after school or during the summer.

    4.Form a alternative to playing 2 party politics, which we lose at no matter who wins.
    Whether it be forming our own party(not likely) or leveraging our block vote and selling to the highest bidder.


    http://www.saywordradio.com
    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    Somehow, JWC, 1-10... I wasn't able to identify on GOAL you listed. That was the question What CLEAR GOALS...

    I appreciate your additional input...


    Interesting.

    I saw them all as goals. I know I use 'agree' in the present tense in the first few. So I guess the point can be well taken.

    I approachJ(ed) this very openly. I, as you know, see identity are paramount to the success of our movement forward.

    That's why, partially why, I stopped. It's an excellent effort, and for me to go further without the input of others might move it/me to far 'down the path.'

    So...it might be better constructed to consider the points as building blocks for IDENTITY, which I see as the foundation goal best assuring success of all the subsequent goals.

    You will see I have edited the post to indicate that.


    PEACE

    Jim Chester
    JWC, certainly there is a overriding, underlying question of IDENTITY we have to come to grips with. I'll not only grant you that but agree that it is "foundational" in many respects. BUT....

    One of our CLEAR GOALS is... 1. Our color.
    One of our CLEAR GOALS is... 2. Our citizenship.
    One of our CLEAR GOALS is... 7. "...we are unique people."

    Now, after we "accomplish" those goals you set out JWC, in real material terms how do any of them represent an improvement, a material, better economic, better social status, better political standing improvement from where we are today.
    quote:
    There are lots of goals...
    That's exactly why I asked the question and said:
    CLEAR GOALS WE CAN COME TO TERMS ON

    quote:
    1. A larger amount of self-sufficency in regards to sustaining our economic well-being.
    And the actual OBJECTIVE would be to do WHAT? HOW? That's what "we have to come to terms" with.

    How do we gain more self-sufficiency?
    How do we construct and coordinate project(s) collectively to become more self-sufficient?

    What are the ways... the projects (that's multiple, and hardly singular) and, hence, the actual perceived OBJECTIVES of those unspecified projects that we can agree on in terms of whether they actually do make us self-sufficient, more self-sufficient or more self-sufficient?

    It's inescapeable. You can talk about GOALS without talking about METHODS for the very methods come into question as to their likelihood of ever achieving the GOAL or somehow only being productive towards but a portion of what the OBJECTIVE was. That's why "coming to terms", discussing exactly what we mean by "SELF-SUFFICIENCY", saying what SELF-SUFFICIENCY is supposed to look like, etc., etc. is important. That way we all know what the hell we're talking about instead of using vague terms that people interpret different and, hence, can't help be seeing the GOAL differently.

    quote:
    4.Form a alternative to playing 2 party politics, which we lose at no matter who wins.
    Whether it be forming our own party(not likely) or leveraging our block vote and selling to the highest bidder.
    Form an alternative and the only "likely" prospect is to not form an alternative to TWO-PARTY POLITICS?

    Note: Bloc Voting, though a different or alternative method to our own politics, is not something outside of the TWO PARTIES when it legitimates both parties as "bidders"...

    And that GOAL is what? To Prostitute? Or What? Just do something different because what's happening isn't working?

    Again, the GOAL is what?
    We can come to terms on WHAT? That at this time, at this point we should PROSTITUTE?

    We would be "selling our vote" for what?
    WHAT CLEAR GOALS, WHAT CLEAR POLICIES/PLATFORM ISSUES would we agree on as things that should be part of this Voting Bloc strategy?

    I don't personally agree with that theory. But, I could easily "come to terms" with what I assume (see I assume, I don't know for sure or even if the proponents know for sure) to be the aim of the strategy when and if CLEAR OBJECTIVES, clear Agenda Items are placed on the table as the TAKE IT or We'll Leave It (i.e. our voting for you) "selling points".

    My series of questions wasn't for more VAGUE talk... The words IN-DEPTH comes to mind...
    Ok lemme see:

    In my opinion one of the ways to gain more self sufficiency would be to let people know what businesses in their own community are black owned.

    How? well their are a number of ways the web being the easiest and most immediate.

    The objective of this is obvious I'm sure.

    Bloc Voting in my opinion is the only viable solution outside of forming our own political party. Why not prostitute our vote? How do you think large immigrant communities like the Cubans gained power? They whored their vote. I say give me a pair pumps and some fishnets.

    One of the policies and goals would be to repeal the repeals of affirmative action. And to obtain more funding for our schools.

    http://www.saywordradio.com
    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    JWC, certainly there is a overriding, underlying question of IDENTITY we have to come to grips with. I'll not only grant you that but agree that it is "foundational" in many respects. BUT....

    One of our CLEAR GOALS is... 1. Our color.
    One of our CLEAR GOALS is... 2. Our citizenship.
    One of our CLEAR GOALS is... 7. "...we are unique people."

    Now, after we "accomplish" those goals you set out JWC, in real material terms how do any of them represent an improvement, a material, better economic, better social status, better political standing improvement from where we are today.


    I thought I was 'clear' in saying those were steps to/in the clear goal of identity.

    Clearly, I wasn't clear.

    That's as clear as I can make it.

    Sorry.


    PEACE

    Jim Chester
    quote:
    Why not prostitute our vote?...

    One of the policies and goals would be to repeal the repeals of affirmative action. And to obtain more funding for our schools.
    And which party is going to yield to demands for a stronger AA when both parties are complicit in its demise?

    Which party is going to alienate White Voters by making such an overt move to get our vote on that issue? And school funding? Well, you can answer that in the same way...

    School funding has been an issue HOW LONG?
    Which party has shown an inkling of genuine concern?

    As far as PROSTITUTING... Who makes overt moves, out in the public eye, to show and be associated with a PROSTITUTE?

    And are we really comparable to the Cubans you mentioned? On a national level? What's the funding rate between us and the Cubans, etc.?

    Do we contribute as much financially as these "immigrants" do? And do the politics of these immigrants clash with the politics of Whites as much as ours does?

    Also, you said "forming our own party" was unlikely and, hence, not viable... But that's an aside.
    First let me state I would rather us form our own party I just don't think it's gonna happen.

    That being said the party that needs our vote the most to obtain office will be the one to yield to our demands.

    Whether they make overt or clandestine moves to woo us will be entirely up to them.

    Why would we not be comparable to the cubans?
    Are we not a distict ethnic group with our own concerns and communities in a country run by those not like ourselves?

    I think we contribute more that they do, what is the dollar amount black people spend in this economy again?

    http://www.saywordradio.com
    First let me state I would rather us form our own party I just don't think it's gonna happen.

    That says something about it's VIABILITY. If not, say how it does not.

    That being said the party that needs our vote the most to obtain office will be the one to yield to our demands.

    You named the issue(s). I asked you which one would Alienate White Voters over AA. That's not a hard question. I'm just asking your opinion of how "likely" that is. Surely if the parties felt they "need" our votes so much then they would regularly, even if not always, kick us a bone. That doesn't seem to be part of what you are saying here.

    Clearly if we are going to make such a move then we have to assess, if only by "likelihood" or projections of some sort, how that is going to play out. What's the gaurantee that once they court our votes, that they will actually come through on any promises?

    I mean, all they have to do is say, "Yeah, we're with ya" during election season then in the in-between time they have all sorts of excuses they can use for not coming through. DIVIDED Gov't being one.

    So, again, which party is going to say YES to AA, e.g., survive the political fallout over that move and then, in the end, help us reap the benefits of our "demands"?

    Exactly how is that going to play out politically? I mean? They really don't or won't "owe" us anything. Wham, Bam, Thank You Ma'am! One Night Stand and no automatic love, no matter how we might WISH.

    So, once more, which party is going to come through on AA? And how exactly is that going to work?

    Black Voting Bloc: We'll sell our vote to you... for that much.
    WHITE Party: Okay, here's the IOU. As long as I do, you'll never go broke! (Sucka!)

    Why would we not be comparable to the cubans?
    ...I think we contribute more that they do, what is the dollar amount black people spend in this economy again?


    It was clear I was talking about CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS and funding... If you have some actual figures on that, I'd appreciate it. What we "spend" on things other than CAMPAIGNS has little to do with influencing WHITE PARTIES to acede to our demands.

    Money (in hand) talks... Bullshit walks.
    With all the powerful interest groups surely this idea can't be lost on you. Again, it was clear I was talking about CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS. I could have made it more explicit, using those exact terms but I don't see how "funding rate" and then the word "contribute" got confused with "spending"...

    We've been spending for quite some time... and???

    Also, you failed to address the POLITICS OF RACE.
    Do the politics of these immigrants clash with the politics of Whites as much as ours does?

    There's a thread about that here...
    And that (the Clashing Factor) and my suspicions about Campaign Contributions would be exactly we wouldn't be comparable to Cubans... WHITE Cubans, I believe they could be called. (That's if facts bear it out and it's a no-brainer on the Clash.)

    Also, I don't know how you can effectively compare the Cuban pop. in one state or set of cities with us on a national level. My suspicion is that small sampling is problematic and I think they may have more influential Campaign Contributors on avg. Perhaps you would do better to compare Cubans to Blacks in Atlanta. But then I think a focus on the percentage of Business Interests seeking political pull has to be more closely examined. My suspicion, hardly anything I know for sure, is they have on avg. more influential business interests with more politicians in their pocket. That's all.
    quote:
    That aside, C-Feed sets up a very good list. I'd like to see an in-depth discussion on #1, #2 and #7.

    # 1) Clarity of Goals

    # 2) Honesty about where you stand today (something that many folks don't have)

    # 7) Democratic infrastructure to note that the methods that you have in place are not working and need to be PURGED and a new set of methods brought in. Beyond "Majority Domination" (ie: Minority suppression) is the concept of FACT BASED DEBATE and the Rule of Law and not of man.


    INDEPTH DISCUSSION:

    1) Clarity of Goals
    This is the foundation. Any journey has to define where it is going, how they can tell that they have arrived and how to keep moving if they find that they have exhausted all of the resources and need to move again so that they might survive.

    I would figure on broad goals that describe our state (High level of academic proficiency for all, High average state of health for all, economic prosperity in which individuals are able to apply their skills for the benefit of funds to feed his family).

    Instead we tend to get too caught up in METHODOLOGY rather than measuring the end game.

    Everyone is not going to be willing to go along n the trip. These goals need to be basic and clear enough for the people to realize that their current existence is more painful than the pain that they will experience in the journey toward change. Their personal sacrifices will be enjoyed by their off spring down the line.

    2) Honesty about where you stand today

    This will prove to be the most difficult task.

    How do you know where you want to go and the way you need to travel to get there if you don't know the coordinates at which you stand today?

    Since we are talking about culture it is important that we assess the state of Black culture as it stands today. Is it making us all better and well rounded people? Is it producing the results that we seek? How does it match up against the points in #1?

    Another critical piece is the realization among all that the ANTAGONISTIC BEHAVIOR of the OUTSIDER to thwart your success must be FACTORED INTO the plan for change or, in fact, your plan is incomplete.

    The groups response, reaction or offensive strategy to overcome the antagonist (both internal and external) must be a fundemental part of the plan.

    THE KEY POINT IS THAT THE GROUP MUST TAKE OWNERSHIP OF IT'S OWN COURSE FORWARD AND NOT OUTSOURCE THE NAVIGATION TO AN OUTSIDER VIA DEPENDENCY ON THEIR ACTIONS. To do thisis to be a mathematical FUNCTION of these outside antagonists. Certainly the concept of adding distance from them so that their influence is reduced is a consideration if their close proximity causes injury.

    7) Democratic infrastructure

    So often we focus about external justice. There needs to be a framework for INTERNAL justice. Pure "majority rule" is a threat to the group ever imposing proven EFFECTIVE changes to the culture.

    The majority may fall sway to a charismatic leader who is able to make use of his group management skills to have the group do things that can be shown as being counter to their interests with objective study.

    These majority votes need to be shaped in the context of both a body of laws and knowledge of what has worked and what has failed in the past, with each faction being able to make it's case without the typical kangaroo court proceedings of trampling on one's right to speak with the use of slander, cajoling and intimidation.

    Absent an infrastructure the group will simply be "asked to WORK HARDER" to achieve their end game but the objective measure which provides them with a map of where they are going my be absent. This infrastructure provides the "Work Smarter" component that is needed.
    quote:
    (High level of academic proficiency for all, High average state of health for all, economic prosperity in which individuals are able to apply their skills for the benefit of funds to feed his family).
    Those things are not clear at all as to what those things REQUIRE and ENTAIL.

    quote:
    So often we focus about external justice. There needs to be a framework for INTERNAL justice. Pure "majority rule" is a threat to the group ever imposing proven EFFECTIVE changes to the culture.
    And so what would be more "democratic"?

    CF, all you are lobbying are complaints. The is not the Complaints Thread.

    Quickly, I have long since embrace the notion that we should elect or own leadership and do it in a way that all ideologies are involved...

    More later...
    Likelyness of such a thing depends on how much our vote is needed a particular party to obtain office. I read somewhere that Bill Clinton was reportedly amazed that black america didn't want anything concrete in return for the huge boost they gave him at the polls. If we don't demend why should they give? The better organized we are the better it will play out. As for who will deal with the fallout do you think the fallout from this will be worse than the fallout from reconstruction or the civil rights movement?

    As far as the IOU shtick goes well the answer to that would be the denial of our support the next go around.

    No it was not clear you were talking about campaign contributions, at least not to me. Please forgive me sometimes i'm slow on the uptake. I honestly have no idea how much black people contribute to campaigns. Maybe i'll google it when i get home.

    I think this whole movement would be dealing with the politics of race in a very real concrete way.

    Honestly a black political party and voting bloc could hand in hand in my opinion. A political party could provide a leadership and official goals to the average black person. The party would then be the ones at the table rolling the dice and betting the chips

    http://www.saywordradio.com
    quote:
    I read somewhere that Bill Clinton was reportedly amazed that black america didn't want anything concrete in return for the huge boost they gave him at the polls.



    I would like to see were you read something like that...which implies that black people voted for him becase they just loved this white man....but had no idea why they voted for him...they just wanted to see him in office...because we had not defined nothing that resembled a black agenda.......that I need to see...to believe my damn self.......
    quote:
    As far as the IOU shtick goes well the answer to that would be the denial of our support the next go around.
    Yeah... I can see that go over real well. So, once that happens and it is likely to happen (or at least a 50/50 chance, IMO) what will we do then? Go to the other party who has the option to do the same thing?

    So the next thing you know every four years:
    WHITE PARTY I: Yeah, we got you faded...
    BLACK BLOC: Okay...
    ... 4 Years Later ...
    BLACK BLOC: What happened?
    WHITE PARTY I: Well, what had happened was...
    BLACK BLOC: (*bounce*)
    ... Prostitute Move #2 ...
    WHITE PARTY II: Yeah, we got you faded...
    (*vicious cycle*)

    quote:
    As for who will deal with the fallout do you think the fallout from this will be worse than the fallout from reconstruction or the civil rights movement?
    Well, you alluded to the Fall Out that came out of the CRM. The Repeal Of Affirmative Action was/is part of that Fall Out. As I asked, which party do you think is willing to Alienate It's White Voter Base by yeilding to our demands?

    Their moves towards us may never be overt. But it is completely disingenuous to think ours, the standing on the corner Prostituting Our Votes, won't be. So, with that historical perspective, the Fall Out in full view (as if it already wasn't) how exactly do you think this Selling/Shopping Our Votes is going to work?

    And it's interesting you mentioned Bill Clinton... Whether the report is true or not, that idea is exactly why I asked those who believe in the Shop The Vote idea: What Are Our Demands? What Are The Issues We Realistically Think Will Work? And What Are Those Things We Cannot Compromise?

    So far you only mentioned two. On the AA thing, again, I ask you to seriously examine how that will play out. There is a possibility of getting played every four years by empty promises. But even beyond that, even granting that the tactic will work (for some amount of time), then why aren't we examining, assessing which issues will work?

    To just assume that we're going to say, "We're not going to vote for you unless..." and not have a grasp on what comes after that, a realistic one is to do ourselves a disservice in the very way you described with the Bill Clinton thing. So there is a lot of examination and assessing to do. Those things must be done to guard against, perhaps, the Unintended Consequences of our actions. If the Fall Out or the consequences haven't been considered and examined properly then we are not making the most intelligent decision.

    So what are the possible reactions and political implications of a Shop The Vote move? That necessitates us looking beyond just our sentiments of dissatisfaction with Democrats or what have. As you noted, we have to have very clear demands and not take it for granted that if we vote for WHITE PARTY X they will "have our back" just because...

    But also it would be woefully irresponsible not to consider what the political ramifications will be and to approach this decision with a Cost Benefit Analysis that says we are willing to deal with the consequences of Shopping Our Vote over the ones we can expect for forming our own party or whatever other ideas there are... BECAUSE...

    I don't see those things clearly laid out on the table. All I see with the Shop The Vote idea is the expectation - which, IMO, is hardly a realistic expectation - that, as you say, "they will yeild to our demands". Our fathom and, yes, in the grand scheme problematic demands.

    quote:
    I think this whole movement would be dealing with the politics of race in a very real concrete way.
    HOW?

    quote:
    Honestly a black political party and voting bloc could hand in hand in my opinion.
    I believe that as well. But I still don't see a Cost Benefit Analysis for either the way most people speak about them. That's a fundamental requirement for both. An automatic requirement.

    So what do we stand to gain and lose (because there will be an unavoidable political give and take, no doubt) from each of those strategies?
    I agree our goals must be assessed I suggested 2 i am only one man. And I am not a politician or particularly fond of politics. Please why don't you suggest some?

    I honestly beleive that if we get majority of black voters to agree to our new strategy even if we get played the first time. The unified intent and conscious cooperation will guarantee we would not get played again.

    As for how the selling or shopping of the vote would work,in my opinion honestly we are to need some leaders to step up and get the strategy to the people. I know you gonna hit me with a barrage of follow up questions so before you do let me say I beleive that this will be one of the strategies presented at the Millions More Movement.

    Everytime black people have made anytype of political social and civil grasp in this country the party that supported us risked alienting their white base. Yet we moved forward so I'm gonna say who cares which one it is.

    Some consequences of this could be:

    It works like a charm, we get whatever it is we decide we want, seeing the power of acting in unity, black people from now on use the democratic process to ensure the well-being of their people.

    It doesn't work at all and we get suckered. then I think with no political voice or even the illusion of a political voice. One consequence might be some type of social or civil unrest. Or we develop some type of strategy to protest our exclusion from the democratic process the fact that we are at this point working in unison with a clear intent on accomplishing something together is in and of itself a victory of sorts.

    Curiously how would a black political party be formed? How could we as 12% of the population win any major office? What would be the benefits of a numerical minority having their own party?


    http://www.saywordradio.com
    Ummm... This thread wasn't about LISTS per se.

    And the very thing that has you revisiting this thread is right here (in the original form of my question, the one that's relevant to the thread that brought you back):

    How can we establish a "Democratic Infrastructure" where our leadership is held accountable and responsible for not meeting our goals...

    Once you responded, I followed that up like so:
    quote:
    And so what would be more "democratic"?

    CF, all you are lobbying are complaints. The is not the Complaints Thread.

    Quickly, I have long since embrace the notion that we should elect our own leadership and do it in a way that all ideologies are involved...
    So the Dialogue point is on YOU and on one of the very things you profess to favor... So, all BS aside, you should be the first one to add some detail and substance to that discussion. Otherwise, I will take your BS for what is obviously is: SELF-SERVING (RHETORIC)

    quote:
    Please tell me what more do you want besides me discontinuing my challenge to Frown your "Mastery of What Is Best For Black Folks"? Frown
    And your honest explanation for all that crying (Bitch TRAIT!!)?

    Dude, you have tried to present yourself as one with the BEST INTEREST of Black Folks at heart and, more precisely, as the person here "challenging" (almost) everyone to think in terms of the BEST PRACTICES... you... still... haven't... really... ever... LISTED... comparatively. You know, The Best vs. The Best... You know, to determine THE Best.

    Anyway... Any Excuse Will Do For You... Oh DEPTHLESS WONDER! bsm

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