Leaders or Followers?

Look at what happened to King and Mandella. In the ideal situation no White person on the planet should know who the top Black leaders are. But our concept of leadership is a lot of loud mouthed showing off nonsense. Black people are not into totally underground stealth warfare based on cold calculation.

See what the "other half" is doing:

http://www.woodmann.com/fravia/realicra.htm

umbrarchist

quote:

Originally posted by umbrarchist:
Look at what happened to King and Mandella. In the ideal situation no White person on the planet should know who the top Black leaders are. But our concept of leadership is a lot of loud mouthed showing off nonsense. Black people are not into totally underground stealth warfare based on cold calculation.

See what the "other half" is doing:

http://www.woodmann.com/fravia/realicra.htm

umbrarchist

Love the bolded parts.....
reminds me of the movie...."The Spook That Beside the Door"....

However, I think all of the above mentioned are needed in some form....

Planning needs to take place behind scenes..... everyone else in the spotlight take their places..... for, against, neutral.... all have a role to play.....

the problem is not the role it is the script...

By the way ...... I really like the web link.....

Subtlety is an art form.........



Peace,
Virtue

In order for a leader to emerge, there has to be a major issue that can galvanize the mass of people. The reason we don't identify as strongly around a "leader" today as our elders did during the days of King and X is that there isn't as much perceived need for one. There is no major issue anymore that most black Americans see as requiring the kind of social triage that we saw in the Montgomery Bus Boycott. The movement created these leaders.

However, from the example of the student movement in New Orleans, it's possible that a new leader or two may soon be emerging in response to Katrina.

quote:

In order for a leader to emerge, there has to be a major issue that can galvanize the mass of people. The reason we don't identify as strongly around a "leader" today as our elders did during the days of King and X is that there isn't as much perceived need for one.

The reason we have so many problems now is because the people in the 60s were galvanized instead of being rational. If there had been no march on Washington, but instead King had been able to get Black churches to start teaching kids accounting the net result would be better today.

Malcolm X called it the Farce on Washington.

umbra

Malcolm X called it the Farce on Washington.---umbrarchist

Agreement among leaders was clearly not the case. So...were 'X' devotees among the marchers?

Malcolm's was an evolving voice. It's ultimate form may, or may not have included religion.

Stangely, King's was also an evolving voice. It referenced religion, but did not require religion of its 'followers'.

There is no blatant issues today.

Katrina will become more and more nebulous with time.

There is no sustaining action.

The continuing systemic assault on African America is the refusal to afford 'equal protection under the law'.

That assualt is so subtle it is below the (societal)perception level of the average American of unknown African ancestry.

And...outside of the realm of ocncern for all other Americans of African ancestry.

The definition of 'the masses' is therefore, also, becoming ever more nebulous.

The leadership we seek in therefore within ourselves.

Who else can you depend on?

That's scary.

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Originally posted by umbrarchist:

quote:

In order for a leader to emerge, there has to be a major issue that can galvanize the mass of people. The reason we don't identify as strongly around a "leader" today as our elders did during the days of King and X is that there isn't as much perceived need for one.

The reason we have so many problems now is because the people in the 60s were galvanized instead of being rational. If there had been no march on Washington, but instead King had been able to get Black churches to start teaching kids accounting the net result would be better today.

Malcolm X called it the Farce on Washington.

umbra

I have strong doubts that he would have been as successful in that attempt. In the face of Jim Crow segregation, it would have been a tough sell to instill the same passion for learning accounting as it was for demanding the basic human freedoms under the law.

quote:

it would have been a tough sell to instill the same passion for learning accounting as it was for demanding the basic human freedoms under the law.

I conceed it would have been a tough sell, but what FREEDOMS did the march on Washington get? It was a nice show and people make a big deal of it today but what were the tangible results? If 20% of Black kids could have understood to concentrate on NET WORTH every year since 1963 how much difference would that make in our economic condition today?

Culture is a way of thinking. Solving our problems will ultimately require a change of culture. Since you don't hear the White people saying accounting should be mandatory for their kids it can't be called acting White.

However the thought of the White reaction to Blacks demanding accounting for all Black kids cracks me up.

umbrarchist

I think we need a bit of both, new leaders, and more followers who stand behind these leaders as long as leaders aren't solely out for their own political and financial gain.

quote:

'...what FREEDOMS did the march on Washington get?

---umbrarchist

I would like to submit the Civil Rights Act of 1964, AND the Voting Rights Act of 1965, the shortcoming of the later notwithstanding.

If 20% of Black kids could have understood to concentrate on NET WORTH every year since 1963 how much difference would that make in our economic condition today?---umbrarchist

Economic awareness is very important and the point is well-taken.

The same argument is applicable to a long list of issues.

I would submit self-determined identity be put a the head of that list.

It would makd all the other items that follow must easier to achieve.

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Civil Rights Act of 1964, AND the Voting Rights Act of 1965, the shortcoming of the later notwithstanding.

Well some of the palefaces are saying that the 2000 and 2004 elections were stolen. I voted against Bush twice. How much good did it do?

I understood planned obsolescence was going on in cars decades ago and never bought a new car so didn't lose much on depreciation over the years. I just sold my apartment building last year and am deciding what to do next. Wondering if there is going to be a drop in housing prices. Understanding financial matters has had more effect on the quality of my life than voting. I think the emphasis on politics is misplaced.

umbra

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
If someone did emerge now as our "messiah", as in times of old, would we also just "crucify him/her?

I attend friends' family reunions were there are still huge debates over how crappy and messed up MLK was. How crappy and messed up X was. LOL.

I don't think people really became messiahs until they are six feet under.

They spark debate when they are alive and then get a lot more sympathy and kudos after death.

People who complain about a lack of leadership should feel like they are chastising themselves. Lead yourself. Aid your community.

For every guy with a mic there are thousands of no name leaders.

quote:

I voted against Bush twice. How much good did it do?

---umbrarchist

I think the emphasis on politics is misplaced.---umbrarchist

You ask for examples. I gave you examples.

Now, apparently, you want examples that you like.

Is your contention that the things corrected by the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 were better left alone?

And... that the pursuit of economic education instead would have been the better course?

I don't think that is a better alternative for African America.

Speaking pragmatically, the education you advocate is not advanced for an entire societal group by any sociological school of thought.

Why do you insist African Americanss choose a course that does not show any proof of successful group application?

Economy-based decisions are typically made by individuals....like you...and me.

Economics is a specialty in education and in life.

The remedy for African America, as with any other ethnicity must be broader.

PEACE

Jim Chester

I guess what I meant by the original post is that it almost doesn't make a difference what leader we follow or direction we move in - if we could ever get African America - en masse - to support anything, that would be an amazing task. We are always - seemingly - questioning/doubting/criticizing (hatin'?) our leaders, maybe we should just shut up and follow someone, anyone (within reason).

We like to talk about how we have no real leaders anymore, again, maybe we just don't have any followers.

That seems a bit unreasonable. You want the followers to come together and then search for something, anything to follow? The message has to be there first. There has to be something for us to unite for or against or around. You can't just put everyone in a room and then say "Okay folks, now that we're all here, let's pick something to be about."

Maybe someone with some vision and intelligence and charisma should step up to the plate instead of waiting to be plucked from obscurity by a group of salivating followers. Isn't that the whole point of being a leader, to take the damn reins and be motivated and get people on your side and push your agenda and generally be on fire?! If you can't even get people motivated about what you have to say, then you need to fall right back in with the crowd because I don't know what kind of political luck you think you'll have. I'm not going to mindlessly fall in line like a droid for the sake of (faux) unity.

quote:

Speaking pragmatically, the education you advocate is not advanced for an entire societal group by any sociological school of thought.

Why do you insist African Americanss choose a course that does not show any proof of successful group application?

Economy-based decisions are typically made by individuals....like you...and me.

Economics is a specialty in education and in life.

How many people must make economic decisions? A child going into a candy store and deciding which candy to buy is making an economic decision. An adult going into an automobile show room and deciding which car to buy is making an economic decision. Millions of people spend money but you say accounting education shouldn't be mandatory because it has never been done? DUH!

The entire economics profession hardly talks about depreciation to the public and don't even talk among themselves about how much consumers loose on depreciation of automobiles among themselves, as far as I can tell. Our economic theory depends on consumers being dumber than economists. I am suggesting a possible solution to our problems is correcting that situation permanently. True, it has never been tried. Before 1969, landing on the moon hadn't been tried either.

The computer technology we are using now is one of the side effects of the space program. The government financed the development of microelectronics because they had to have a small, light, reliable computer to send to the moon.

umbrarchist

ps - most kids get 4 years of English in high school. Drop one year of English and stick in one year of accounting/economics. Don't water it down like schools tend to do and fill it with idiotic busywork.

http://www.rea.com/display_prod.cfm?p=0878911758&g=0878911758

This book has a spreadsheet listing depreciation on the front cover. I have never seen that before.

quote:

and generally be on fire?!

OH NO! Emotional bullsh!t again. LOL

umbra

most kids get 4 years of English in high school. Drop one year of English and stick in one year of accounting/economics. Don't water it down like schools tend to do and fill it with idiotic busywork---umbrarchist

I can agree with this.

Where would you put it? In what course?

It's not likely to work as an 'across the board'[ requirement for graduation.

The fact that it is not included now is an indication that it information the system does not want to be generally available to the masses.

To get it to our children, the information will have to offered universally.

How do you suggest this be made to happen?

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchy:

That seems a bit unreasonable. You want the followers to come together and then search for something, anything to follow? The message has to be there first. There has to be something for us to unite for or against or around. You can't just put everyone in a room and then say "Okay folks, now that we're all here, let's pick something to be about."

Maybe someone with some vision and intelligence and charisma should step up to the plate instead of waiting to be plucked from obscurity by a group of salivating followers. Isn't that the whole point of being a leader, to take the damn reins and be motivated and get people on your side and push your agenda and generally be on fire?! If you can't even get people motivated about what you have to say, then you need to fall right back in with the crowd because I don't know what kind of political luck you think you'll have. I'm not going to mindlessly fall in line like a droid for the sake of (faux) unity.

But that's my point. We are so full of haterade that we would rather throw stones than follow someone else. There is no shortage of leadership. Take your pick - from religious leaders to political to whatever. Al Sharpton stepped up - we didn't support him. What's up with Barack? How about Cornel West? Michael Eric Dyson? Jesse is still on the scene. What about T.D. Jakes? What about Eddie Long here in Atlanta (he just bought a $600,000 Bentley - he must be doing something right!).

There are plenty of leaders. We need to follow better. There will be NO MLK or MX. They weren't created until their death. Let's choose a thoughtful forward-thinking person and suport, suport, suport.

We'll go lots further than how we're doing now.

quote:

There are plenty of leaders. We need to follow better. There will be MLK or MX. They weren't created until their death. Let's choose a thoughtful forward-thinking person and suport, suport, suport.

We'll go lots further than how we're doing now.

I feel ya, MBM. It is so much easier to sit back and throw rocks than lace up one's boots and actual do something, including following.

It would seem that following, or even hearing the message of, a "Leader" would be so much easier, if the "Leader" did not have to spend so much of his/her energy, defending his/her position, not from those that want to hear and follow; but from those whose sole purpose is to denigrate that leader's message. [And, usually does so without a competing alternative]

Whereas, we know, live and accept that there are multiple tactics and solutions for addressing the many problems in our daily lives; apparently, when it comes to addressing problems in our community, there is necessarily one best solution that must be determined, not through consensus, but rather through the absolute surrender of all competing thought, before we can move forward.

The other man has taught us well.

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
But that's my point. We are so full of haterade that we would rather throw stones than follow someone else.

It's haterade to have standards, a point of view? Haterade to require that someone put forth their agenda and convert you like anyone else looking for a following? There's a difference between "hating" (I hate that stupid word) and just plain not agreeing with someone's platform or thinking they are a good leader.

quote:

There is no shortage of leadership. Take your pick - from religious leaders to political to whatever. Al Sharpton stepped up - we didn't support him. What's up with Barack? How about Cornel West? Michael Eric Dyson? Jesse is still on the scene. What about T.D. Jakes? What about Eddie Long here in Atlanta (he just bought a $600,000 Bentley - he must be doing something right!).

There's clearly a shortage of good leadership with a good agenda. (Al "Tawana Brawley Hoax" Sharpton?!)

quote:

There are plenty of leaders. We need to follow better. There will be NO MLK or MX. They weren't created until their death. Let's choose a thoughtful forward-thinking person and suport, suport, suport.

I think that is so backwards (and completely impossible). How would that even happen? Take a vote? Send out a bulletin board to all people who are Black/African-American/African and say "Hey, we are supporting Joe Blow now. Just so you know."? How would we all agree on one person to support? And why on Earth doesn't it matter what this one person's agenda is? That's the MOST IMPORTANT thing. Unless this "leader/appointed pussy" is just a puppet who will sway whichever way the wind blows. Thoughtful and forward-thinking doesn't necessarily mean you're cut out to lead anybody anywhere. Leadership should never be handed over on a silver platter.

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
Michael Eric Dyson? Jesse is still on the scene. What about T.D. Jakes?

For the record, I'll have no peace in this life until I get to personally kick T.D. Jakes' big fat black a**

But, back to the topic, I'll follow someone who has vision and puts forward an agenda I can back.

West and Dyson? Brilliant guys but they're academics. I read their books but they're not movement leaders or politicians. Their function is to make us think. Jesse was great but is now a relic of the past. Sharpton is a great agitator but has no vision. And that is really the problem right now: Our so-called "leaders" are profoundly lacking in vision.

Negroes are so busy trying to relive the past they're not thinking in the present and sure as hell not having viable visions of a future.

One indication of this: notice MOST of the guys on your list are ordained ministers (Jesse, Sharpton, Jakes, West, Long, Dyson). We need to get out of the habit of putting preachers front and center. Like the only damned leadership we have has to come out of a pulpit somewhere? And then we wonder why no one has any new ideas???? It might help if we did and/or supported something D-I-F-F-E-R-E-N-T! Different thinking might produce new and different ideas ...Duh !?!



I can tell you now: I'm not "following" no preacher. Not the half-literate fools we have now...

quote:

What about Eddie Long here in Atlanta (he just bought a $600,000 Bentley - he must be doing something right!).

If he would blow that much on a car I would presume there was something wrong between his ears.

umbra

quote:

Originally posted by umbrarchist:

quote:

What about Eddie Long here in Atlanta (he just bought a $600,000 Bentley - he must be doing something right!).

If he would blow that much on a car I would presume there was something wrong between his ears.

umbra

quote:

Originally posted by umbrarchist:
Look at what happened to King and Mandella. In the ideal situation no White person on the planet should know who the top Black leaders are. But our concept of leadership is a lot of loud mouthed showing off nonsense. Black people are not into totally underground stealth warfare based on cold calculation.

See what the "other half" is doing:

http://www.woodmann.com/fravia/realicra.htm

umbrarchist

Again the relevance of this comment: EVERY IDIOT AND HIS DAMNED MAMA knows we like to choose our leadership from the clergy...

So, speaking of idiots, what does Bush & Co. do? Promote "Faith based initiatives" which are arguably compromising our politics because the preachers (like T.D. Jakes ) are jumping into bed with the Republicans.

By the way, I heard Al Sharpton himself make half of this point a few days ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchy:
There's clearly a shortage of good leadership with a good agenda. (Al "Tawana Brawley Hoax" Sharpton?!)

Although I believe Al gets SO MUCH UNFAIR FLACK FOR THIS.

If a white teenager showed up in an alley smeared with shit and said black cops did it, you know what?

THE WHOLE DAMNED COUNTRY WOULD BELIEVE HER.

Al Sharpton did the right thing in that situation even though ultimately he was wrong.

And I'm surprised that a black woman - one who complains about the sorriness of black men - would be holding that incident against him.

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchy:
There's clearly a shortage of good leadership with a good agenda. (Al "Tawana Brawley Hoax" Sharpton?!)

Although I believe Al gets SO MUCH UNFAIR FLACK FOR THIS.

If a white teenager showed up in an alley smeared with shit and said black cops did it, you know what?

THE WHOLE DAMNED COUNTRY WOULD BELIEVE HER.

Al Sharpton did the right thing in that situation even though ultimately he was wrong.

And I'm surprised that a black woman - one who complains about the sorriness of black men - would be holding that incident against him.

I could not agree more. Al takes heat for giving a young black woman the benefit of the doubt on this type of issue? How does that work???

BTW - I would never suggest that we cavalierly throw our support just any old place. BUT - again - I don't think there is a dearth of leadership in our community. You want a political leader? Grab Barack; what about Harold Ford? Get a group of black leaders and draft Colin if that's your flavor. You want some black leaders - Julian Bond still has lots of fire in him. You want someone a bit more left leaning? Maxine Waters is a flame thrower! Cynthia McKinney is the ONLY person in Congress who called "bullshit" on Bush just after 9/11.

There are five leaders. Let's pick one. Let's work with her/him to craft a national strategy for us, and then march lock-step behind. We will NEVER gain the power of unity because we'll never unite.

I honestly don't think its a problem with leadership...the think that African America has a "gap" problem. What I mean by this is that we have a age and economic "gap" problem. The young and the old don't understand one another and each group has its own set of beliefs..the same can be said about the rich and the poor. The one thing that I think people are forgetting about is that we do have one thing in common...WE ARE BLACK! Being black and in America is a struggle on a daily basis. While some things have gotten better its still pretty f'd up...we a black people need to rationally think about how we want to move forward...divided as we are now based on petty things such as age and how much you got...or united so that real change can take place. This leadership will begin when we as a people decide to put down the petty differences that we have with one another...

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
BTW - I would never suggest that we cavalierly throw our support just any old place. BUT - again - I don't think there is a dearth of leadership in our community. You want a political leader? Grab Barack; what about Harold Ford? Get a group of black leaders and draft Colin if that's your flavor. You want some black leaders - Julian Bond still has lots of fire in him. You want someone a bit more left leaning? Maxine Waters is a flame thrower! Cynthia McKinney is the ONLY person in Congress who called "bullshit" on Bush just after 9/11.

There are five leaders. Let's pick one. Let's work with her/him to craft a national strategy for us, and then march lock-step behind. We will NEVER gain the power of unity because we'll never unite.

I loves me some Maxine Waters and Cynthia McKinney

But we need to disown Harold Ford

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

But we need to disown Harold Ford

I haven't really heard much about his senate race. What's happening/up with him?

What is sorely needed...

According to the Congressional Black Caucus Monitor Report Card

"Grouped like dregs at the bottom of the Caucus barrel are five members whose conduct reveals them as tools for parties outside the Black community: Albert Wynn (MD) 55%, Artur Davis (AL) 40%, David Scott (GA) 35%, Sanford Bishop (GA) 32.5%, and Harold Ford Jr. (TN) 32.5. Ford was also the lowest rated congressperson in the CBC Monitor's September, 2005 Report Card (at 5%). However, perhaps looking over his shoulder at his base as he runs for the U.S. Senate this year, Ford improved his Fall score by 55 points over his abysmal Spring tally. But he remains a "Derelict" of the worst order.

All five "Derelicts" are members of the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) and/or Blue Dog Democrats."

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

But we need to disown Harold Ford

I haven't really heard much about his senate race. What's happening/up with him?

I haven't been keeping up with his recent exploits...

That perm-wearing famewhore knew it was a bullshit story, but he wanted his face in the news. Thousands of dollars wasted trying to find these phantom perpetrators. Tawana Brawley is just the tip of his antics. He has no integrity. He's a fucking hype man with a $300 hairdo. What kind of a man is that to get behind?? Why on Earth would I, of all people, give him a pass, HB???

quote:

BTW - I would never suggest that we cavalierly throw our support just any old place. BUT - again - I don't think there is a dearth of leadership in our community. You want a political leader? Grab Barack; what about Harold Ford? Get a group of black leaders and draft Colin if that's your flavor. You want some black leaders - Julian Bond still has lots of fire in him. You want someone a bit more left leaning? Maxine Waters is a flame thrower! Cynthia McKinney is the ONLY person in Congress who called "bullshit" on Bush just after 9/11.

You keep throwing this around. Are these people paraplegics? Something wrong with their voices?? Their feet? If they want support, if they want to be LEADERS, they need to get their asses out there and drum up support with their words and ideas. Why should I go to them? Fuck grabbing Barack, Barack needs to grab me (in several ways.. LOL)! He's the one with the political career, getting paid and wined and dined. He's the one with the ideas in his head that need support to come to fruition. He needs to be the one putting in the work.

quote:

There are five leaders. Let's pick one. Let's work with her/him to craft a national strategy for us, and then march lock-step behind.

Again, how exactly does this happen? How do "we" go about "picking one?" A mass mailing? Who gets a say? Exactly which ones of us are going to help this fawn craft his strategy? Are we all going to turn in comment cards? This is all completely unreasonable. It's much more pragmatic for a strong leader to gain a following than a strong following to craft a leader. You can't make a leader.

IMO, one of the largest reasons for not being a united voting block or party is because there isn't much we all feel the same about. Our political needs and desires have much more to do with our income, our gender, and our morality than our race. I can't really name a single issue that I think all (or a sizeable number of) Black people in this country would get behind and fight for.

I don't understand. If we have history as our guide, then we know, beyond question, that severe, galvanizing issues give rise to the movements AND the leaders that people rally behind. There is nothing wrong with the people for not rallying around a leader. The issues today, while they may be significant, are really not the kind of issues that will compel someone to bring forth any major cathexis around a leader. And it's probably not the seriousness of the issues that is lacking; I'd say it's the lack of a clearcut solution to any of them. Enslavement's clearcut solution was abolition. Jim Crow's clearcut solution was federal and state Civil Rights guarantees. The clearcut solution to intractable poverty, crime, and underemployment is.....? And a charismatic black leader can accomplish this solution by doing....?

Issues over which there's no real doubt as to the solution are the issues that galvanize the masses.

Peace....

quote:

I don't understand. If we have history as our guide, then we know, beyond question, that severe, galvanizing issues give rise to the movements AND the leaders that people rally behind. There is nothing wrong with the people for not rallying around a leader. The issues today, while they may be significant, are really not the kind of issues that will compel someone to bring forth any major cathexis around a leader. And it's probably not the seriousness of the issues that is lacking; I'd say it's the lack of a clearcut solution to any of them. Enslavement's clearcut solution was abolition. Jim Crow's clearcut solution was federal and state Civil Rights guarantees. The clearcut solution to intractable poverty, crime, and underemployment is.....? And a charismatic black leader can accomplish this solution by doing....?
Issues over which there's no real doubt as to the solution are the issues that galvanize the masses.

Well said.



Kai

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchy:

Are these people paraplegics? Something wrong with their voices?? Their feet? If they want support, if they want to be LEADERS, they need to get their asses out there and drum up support with their words and ideas. Why should I go to them? Fuck grabbing Barack, Barack needs to grab me (in several ways.. LOL)!

You seem to infer that he is the one who would be advantaged by the conveyance of your support. Another way of looking at this is that YOU would be the one benefited. ALthough it appears that you cannot see it, unity and galvanizing our collective power is something that advantages "the people" to a FAR greater degree than to any leader.

quote:

IMO, one of the largest reasons for not being a united voting block or party is because there isn't much we all feel the same about.

I agree wholeheartedly. This, frankly, is one of our biggest problems as a community. We can't see past our petty self-interests to aggregate our inertia toward something bigger that could benefit all of us.

quote:

Our political needs and desires have much more to do with our income, our gender, and our morality than our race.

One could choose to look at things this way. How is that in their interest, however, in a country that defines us first by our race - then by any other factors. Remember the joke, "what do you call a black "put whatever profession you choose here"? A nigger."

quote:

I can't really name a single issue that I think all (or a sizeable number of) Black people in this country would get behind and fight for.

Voting rights?

Affirmative Action?

Access to affordable and quality healthcare?

Education?

Against the Iraq War?

Etc.

There are plenty of issues that African America has in common.

quote:

You seem to infer that he is the one who would be advantaged by the conveyance of your support.

No, he is not the only one, but he certainly would get a lion's share of the glory/compensation/input/credit.

I had a whole big thing written, but I think instead I'll say this:

I think we have drastically different ideas of what it is to be a leader. I require that my leaders actually lead something, which involves active work on their part to formulate ideas and do everything they can to see that it gets support and becomes reality. You don't seem to mind if you have to force-feed your leaders with ideas and motivation and garner support for them.

quote:

ALthough it appears that you cannot see it, unity and galvanizing our collective power is something that advantages "the people" to a FAR greater degree than to any leader.

This depends on what you are unified around and who you're unified under. Large, unified groups of very stupid people under a stupid leader can do some very dangerous things.

I don't think paying attention to self-interest is petty. Irrespective of how the world sees us or initially defines us, we don't live our lives just as Black people.

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchy:

I think we have drastically different ideas of what it is to be a leader. I require that my leaders actually lead something, which involves active work on their part to formulate ideas and do everything they can to see that it gets support and becomes reality. You don't seem to mind if you have to force-feed your leaders with ideas and motivation and garner support for them.

Your powers of imagination are quite potent. I've said nor intimated nothing to infer this. In fact, I require no less than anybody else - actually probably much more since I think I can come up with an idea or two myself about things! That said, I just flat out disagree with many who complain about a lack of leadership in our community. As I've said, there are PLENTY of people who have stepped up. There are far fewer people who have stepped up to be good followers - that's my point. You may not like them, but perhaps that's part of the "problem". Are we asking appropriate things of leaders? Are our expectations of them reasonable?

quote:

Large, unified groups of very stupid people under a stupid leader can do some very dangerous things.

Why would you assume that any group of us would be "stupid"? Why would you assume that we would empower a "stupid" leader? Isn't that a rather pessimistic and paternalistic view of people?

quote:

I don't think paying attention to self-interest is petty. Irrespective of how the world sees us or initially defines us, we don't live our lives just as Black people.

I agree, and haven't suggested otherwise Ms. Queen of the Hyprebole. All I've said is that whatever strength we have can only be maximized by aggregating it.

We don't need leadership, we need absolute unification of all 43 million of us so that when the next major catastrophe hits, we'll know who amongst us we'll be able to rely upon to survive, if that's possible. God, I can't stand what's going on in this world right now. There's no words to describe all this madness.