Justice Dept. Probing Domestic Spying Leak

Yes throw the red herring!!!

I find it some what amusingly stupid to believe that telcom between hostile suspects in and out of the US would only be partially listened to.

If it were me I would trace the call back to the inland traiterous asshole and whack his ass to the the netherworld- no court.

Yes what your prez did was wrong and it should be investigated but so should the leak as this is a clear violation of secrecy that needs to be dealt with as it could put persons in harms way if not plugged.

It is sad that national security seems to take a back seat to impressing your press.

I know this has nothing to do with the topic, but OH MY GOD MBM you are looking so sexy in that avatar. I just had to say something. Sorry. Please continue.

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Revelation of the secret spying program unleashed a firestorm of criticism of the administration. Some critics accused the president of breaking the law by authorizing intercepts of conversations - without prior court approval or oversight - of people inside the United States and abroad who had suspected ties to al-Qaida or its affiliates.

I'm having difficulty understanding why people are so up in arms about this. It is not as if Bush and his administration are going to eavesdrop on your personal conversations. And as far as Bush "breaking the law," what president has not broken the law? I'm just waiting for the day when Bush's term is up. The hypocrisy has become unbearable.

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Originally posted by Rowe:

I'm having difficulty understanding why people are so up in arms about this. It is not as if Bush and his administration are going to eavesdrop on your personal conversations. And as far as Bush "breaking the law," what president has not broken the law? I'm just waiting for the day when Bush's term is up. The hypocrisy has become unbearable.

Folks are up in arms [I wish it were true] because this society is based in laws and the constitution prohibits the snooping.

My real fear is that power seekers are like children in that they will press the limits to see how far they can go. If snooping on citizens in the name of fighting terror, then snooping in the name of suprressing "unpatriotic" behaviors should also be okay, then snooping to assure that citizens are toeing the party line would be okay too.

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Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
My real fear is that power seekers are like children in that they will press the limits to see how far they can go.If snooping on citizens in the name of fighting terror, then snooping in the name of suprressing "unpatriotic" behaviors should also be okay, then snooping to assure that citizens are toeing the party line would be okay too.

Hey, this fool has started a war that should have never happened in the first place, isn't that proof enough that he's "press the limits." At this point, there is nothing the president can do that can shock me, besides resigning. People should really be outraged by the outcome of this war. "Snooping," big deal.

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Originally posted by Rowe:

I'm having difficulty understanding why people are so up in arms about this. It is not as if Bush and his administration are going to eavesdrop on your personal conversations.

And you know this how?

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Originally posted by Blacksanction:
I find it some what amusingly stupid to believe that telcom between hostile suspects in and out of the US would only be partially listened to.

That's because you don't know what you're talking about. However, your reasoning isn't amusingly stupid, it's just plain stupid. He did NOT adhere to FISA. He is not a king or a dictator... but the moment people like YOU (thank gawwd you're not a US citizen) start spouting off mindlessly about the right of one man being able to spy on anyone in the country he wants to, he very well could write his own ticket.

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If it were me I would trace the call back to the inland traiterous asshole and whack his ass to the the netherworld- no court.

That's all the world needs, another dumbass who thinks of himself as GOD... judge, jury and executioner! The calls being listened to were domestic... not international. And, he didn't prevent jackshit from happening by spying on innocent domestic communications.

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Yes what your prez did was wrong...

If you were smart you'd stop there... but, that's not going to happen, now is it...

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... and it should be investigated but so should the leak as this is a clear violation of secrecy that needs to be dealt with as it could put persons in harms way if not plugged.

There YOU go, just like your coon-servative friend, condoning the "STOP SNITCHING" culture of white folks. Wrong is wrong and should be reported / made known / leaked as soon as possible. The mofo broke the law by not adhering to FISA and it should have been made public long before now!

Those checks and balances are in place for a REASON.

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Originally posted by Rowe:
People should really be outraged by the outcome of this war. "Snooping," big deal.

Geezus! Who watches the watchers? What becomes of the information learned from domestic spying on innocent people? Is it archived or purged immediately? If domestic spying is no big deal, doesn't attorney/client & doctor/patient privilege go out the window, too.

Does the KGB and the constant threat of private information (humiliating family secrets that fall far short of treasonous behavior) being revealed to keep people from informing about official wrongdoing sound familiar to the shoulder shruggers?

How many people are devoid of farsight or the ability to critically analyze recent history? Can everyone with a farsight deficiency just raise their hands?

The pieces of the story I've picked up say the practice began with FDR, and has been used by every President since.

The difference, big difference, is that Bush II insists, demands, to that he can do it without any kind of accountability.

All previous Presidents, acknowledged and observed accountability.

That is the arrogance of power that we all fear, and cannot allow to exist.

PEACE

Jim Chester

Isome- thx for your words of insult as ever you have a way of creating two way dialogue with strangers that I find ever so mindnumbing

Do you actually truley read other posts before you flame them or just read enough to see that it does not agree with your particular brand of politics? -no need to answer as I know you will only resort to another round of school yard insults .

Now back to the topic at hand.

Grab a bit of reality every world leader would do the same thing for the same reasons. When it comes to attempting to prevent another 911 you bet your ass they too would play God and take the terrorist out of play.

All governments mine included can and do intercept telecoms from around the world by seeking out keywords, names and phrases that may be linked to terrorist activity. The information that is gleaned is shared by various security agencies who do the follow up and take care of business. Most of the time you never hear about the incidents that have been stopped only the ones that caused death and destruction. this is the world we live in. Whether you agree or not is moot.

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Originally posted by Blacksanction:
All governments mine included can and do intercept telecoms from around the world by seeking out keywords, names and phrases that may be linked to terrorist activity. The information that is gleaned is shared by various security agencies who do the follow up and take care of business. Most of the time you never hear about the incidents that have been stopped only the ones that caused death and destruction. this is the world we live in. Whether you agree or not is moot.

Sanction, why are people still buying into the idea of America being this nation of moral fortitude, where freedom and liberty reigns supreme, and political leaders can and never will do any wrong? "America participates in domestic spying!" Oh no! Not in America. Not in the land where everyone does the right thing, the governments have everyone's best interest at heart, and political leaders are esteemed as political gods of virtue and honesty. The world must be ending. Quick! Everyone, take cover!

Rowe, I think you have it a little twisted. No one here, at least, believes america to be any great moral state. Rather, we (I) become concerned when the government act as it does because I realize that it is not a great moral state.

I think that folks are raising [polite] hell about the domestic spying because it is clearly impacting US citizens.

I see the Iraqi war as just another example of this administration's abuse of the power that "We, The People" have granted it. It is just another example of this administration's belief that it is not obliged to respect any laws past by congress. These abuses of authority come step by space, each building on the previous abuse.

If that is the case, then we no longer live in a democratic republic; but rather a dictatorship. er

Kweli4Real we pay our government and police to do and take care of the dirty things that we do not want to know about and then we all act shocked and surprised when their actions are reported in the press.

We act surprised and shocked at their actions we will call for hearings knowing full well that after millions are spent and the wrong persons jailed that it will be business as usual. This is not twisted it is our reality. You can rail all you want not living in a democratic state but at the end of the day its the only game in town.

BTW when have we ever lived in a true democracy??

And now a famous quote from A Few Good Men.

Col. Jessep: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Oh I think I'm gonna cry.

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Originally posted by Blacksanction:
Isome- thx for your words of insult ...

No, thank YOU for raising your hand to acknowledge your farsight deficiency, inability to critically analyze recent history, and your hypocrisy by questioning how much of the topic's responses I read, while ignoring JWC's post that refers to and rebutts the very same prattle you posted in response to me.

Thank you, too, for remaining outside of the US (we have enough willfully ignorant citizens as it is)... and Happy New Year guy! *big smile*

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Originally posted by Rowe:
...why are people still buying into the idea of America being this nation of moral fortitude, where freedom and liberty reigns supreme, and political leaders can and never will do any wrong? "America participates in domestic spying!" Oh no! Not in America. Not in the land where everyone does the right thing, the governments have everyone's best interest at heart, and political leaders are esteemed as political gods of virtue and honesty. The world must be ending. Quick! Everyone, take cover!

Very few people here think of the US as the arbiters of morality, especially with regard to civil liberties and the like. The few who do are certainly not on the left side of the political spectrum.

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Originally posted by Blacksanction:
Kweli4Real we pay our government and police to do and take care of the dirty things that we do not want to know about and then we all act shocked and surprised when their actions are reported in the press.

That's what sheeple think... not what the rest of us believe or know. Dirty things that we'd rather not know about... get the heck outta' here! That's the most detrimentally skewed perspective any citizen of a democratic republic could ever have...

It's not the actual reporting that is at issue, it is the apathy, the acquiescence and/or the convenient cynicism (convenient because it allows the sheeple to remain focused on the relative minutiae of their daily lives) in response to the news.

Is-no-me

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That's what sheeple think... not what the rest of us believe or know. Dirty things that we'd rather not know about... get the heck outta' here! That's the most detrimentally skewed perspective any citizen of a democratic republic could ever have...

Whether I am American or Canadian does not matter as you are still willfully blind (ironic given your current icon) to the truth as to what really goes on in the adult world. You can piss and moan about who the real criminals are whether its Tookie (RIH)or GW Bush it really does not matter as the real behind the scenes workers in governments around the world will continue to do what they do and some times they break the laws that they have sworn to uphold.

So grow the fuck up!

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Originally posted by Blacksanction:
Whether I am American or Canadian does not matter as you are still willfully blind (ironic given your current icon) to the truth as to what really goes on in the adult world. You can piss and moan about who the real criminals are whether its Tookie (RIH)or GW Bush it really does not matter as the real behind the scenes workers in governments around the world will continue to do what they do and some times they break the laws that they have sworn to uphold.

So grow the fuck up!

Well, you used a lot of words to say absolutely nothing. Congrats... asshole!

Thx

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Geezus! Who watches the watchers? What becomes of the information learned from domestic spying on innocent people? Is it archived or purged immediately? If domestic spying is no big deal, doesn't attorney/client & doctor/patient privilege go out the window, too.

Does the KGB and the constant threat of private information (humiliating family secrets that fall far short of treasonous behavior) being revealed to keep people from informing about official wrongdoing sound familiar to the shoulder shruggers?

How many people are devoid of farsight or the ability to critically analyze recent history? Can everyone with a farsight deficiency just raise their hands?

Look at how snooping has been used to our detriment. When you give an inch they'll take a mile. How far do you think Bush and presidents that follow him will go, especially if everyone acts like this is no big deal. How will this an future administrations continue to use the threat of another 911 as a reason to dismantle civil liberties. The government has used covert means of infiltrating organizations that advocated rights for disenfanchised peoples for many years and the excuse was always supposed to be national security. What about the COINTELPRO operation to "prevent the rise of a Black Messiah"? If people are unconcerned about this, then it gives the government a free pass to get away with even more invasions of privacy out in the open.

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Hey, this fool has started a war that should have never happened in the first place, isn't that proof enough that he's "press the limits." At this point, there is nothing the president can do that can shock me, besides resigning. People should really be outraged by the outcome of this war. "Snooping," big deal.

I agree, nothing that he does surprises me, but that doesn't mean that I think that when he continues to commit these atrocities I will see it as no big deal.

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Originally posted by Rowe:

I'm having difficulty understanding why people are so up in arms about this. It is not as if Bush and his administration are going to eavesdrop on your personal conversations.


And you know this how?

If we look the other way on this that could be next. (It's not as if it has never happened before and doesn't continue to happen.) Looking the other way on this issue does make it easier for government agencies to do it though. "No there's no need for a warrant, go ahead and tap the phones, go ahead and run up in that house."

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the real behind the scenes workers in governments around the world will continue to do what they do and some times they break the laws that they have sworn to uphold.

And so from what you have posted am I to assume you believe this is a good thing? Please clarify.

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Originally posted by powerflower:

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the real behind the scenes workers in governments around the world will continue to do what they do and some times they break the laws that they have sworn to uphold.

And so from what you have posted am I to assume you believe this is a good thing? Please clarify.

It's just stinkin' thinkin' powerflower! When laws are broken by John & Jane Q. Public, particularly those laws relating to theft or causing physical harm, the stinkin' thinkers will rail against the wind at the harm caused to society. When laws that affect the entire country are broken by the ruling elite, they get a free pass simply because they're the ruling elite... and they will do what they've always done. The stinkin' thinkers have a different set of standards for law breakers depending on their socieoeconomic postion; probably because of an unrecognized deference towards people in positions of power.

Nevermind that they're becoming less secretive when breaking the law because of that awe-induced cynicsm, and nevermind that the fish rots from the head down--the concept that a criminality prone government will not and cannot foster, promote or maintain a criminality-free populace is too difficult for them to grasp.

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the real behind the scenes workers in governments around the world will continue to do what they do and some times they break the laws that they have sworn to uphold.


Powerflower
And so from what you have posted am I to assume you believe this is a good thing? Please clarify.

It is can be either- whatever direction they are given re strategic policy of the government of the day. The part that everyone likes to miss is that the interception of telcom in and out of the US has been going on for decades. Think about it... the US does this with its allies so I listen to your people and I listen to yours and then we trade the information.
Agents of the state (whether Fed, State or local police) depending on the circumstances do engage from time to time in unlawful acts while while attemping to detect, deter or defend- example drug buy/busts, undercover operation, espionage. In the end whether you get away with it depends on how you articulate why you did what you did. Keep in mind that not everything goes to court or sees the light of day.

I would be more worried if your president had unlimited office terms like Canada has, that is when the rot can really set in.

I think that this is such a relevant and interesting topic, I decided to bump it back up to the top of the discussion board.
When I was in high school, I was fortunate enough to go to a presidential library and browse through the declassified files of that administration. I was incensed to discover that long before WWII so-called American citizens were being spied on and massive amounts of information was being documented an stored on non-violent organizations. Organizations such as the Pullman Porters, A. Philip Randolph, alleged Communists in the black community (which is code for blacks trying to gain equal rights in America). These were files from the FDR administration. I would not be surprised if the spying had indeed not stopped at all, even after the Church commission of the late 1970's.
As a matter of fact, due the lack of laws that are lagging behind the increase of rapidly changing technology, it has become a loophole of sorts for the government or unscrupulous people to take advantage of "spying" on people.

In regards to this so-called investigation, the story was put on hold for a year, and they couldn't investigate who leaked it when it was first brought to the attention of the President? Yet he could ask for the press not to release the information for a year? I smell BS