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A day after Michael Jackson's death, a cloud of deep sadness - mixed with growing anger - has descended on the Jackson family home in Encino, where Joe and Katherine Jackson and their children have gathered to mourn.

"We're holding a family meeting now," Joe told PEOPLE in a brief interview midday. "We don't like what's going on."

A source close to the family tell PEOPLE that, while the adults of the family put up a brave front on Friday for Michael's three children - Prince, 12, Paris, 11, and Blanket, 7 - the emotions on Saturday are raw and bitter.

"The Sadness is Unreal."

"The kids have fallen apart today," says the source. "They have taken it so, so hard. Yesterday everybody was being really strong for the kids, but today it just hit everybody. There are so many tears."

A sharp division has opened between Michael Jackson's lawyers and personal staff and his parents and eight siblings.

"There is so much sadness in the house today, it's unreal. They are so confused. They are so in the dark," says the source.

"The family has no access to the will. [Michael's lawyers] won't let the family see the will ... The family has no idea what to do. They don't even know when to bury him. They don't know what to do about anything. They aren't getting any answers from Michael's lawyers."

Mrs. Jackson Rebuffed.

Even Katherine Jackson, the singer's mother, has been rebuffed by Michael's camp, according to the source. "Michael's people won't give Mrs. Jackson anything."

Another source of deep concern for the family: The intentions of Debbie Rowe, Jackson's former wife and the mother of his two older children, whose lawyer yesterday confirmed that Rowe retains parental rights. The Jacksons apparently fear that Rowe, who has not lived with the children in years, may now want to raise them.

"They haven't heard from Debbie Rowe and don't know what's going on in that respect, either. Joe and Katherine really want the children," says the source. "They for sure want the children."

Independent Autopsy.

Another source close to the family tells PEOPLE that the family is so concerned about the reliability of Jackson's handlers that there is a possibility that patriarch Joe Jackson, now acting once again as the family chief, will request an independent autopsy.

"They're in shock and they want answers," the source says. "The issue is the people around him: vampires and blood suckers."

About the only positive development, says this source, is the rare sense of unity that now unites the large and fractious family. "They are coming together and Joe is running the show. It was tough for them all growing up, but the parents never stole from Michael and they had his best interests at heart."


http://www.people.com/people/p...xid=rss-topheadlines

SECOND STORY:

Debbie Rowe prefers her animals to her own children with Michael Jackson






Previously Debbie had signed a confidentiality agreement in exchange for a pay off by the Jackson camp, but now she is apparently ready to share the details of their odd union

Not wasting any time, Debbie Rowe, the self-described "vessel" who claims that she incubated donated sperm to deliver Michael Jackson his first two children, is flapping her gums to the media over their unusual arrangement that gave Jackson "a family."


Michael Jackson is not even in the ground, and already his former "wife" and "mother" of his first two children, Debbie Rowe, started giving interviews to the News of the World revealing the intricacies over the arrangement she had with Jackson post his Lisa Marie Presley divorce.

Previously Debbie had signed a confidentiality agreement in exchange for a pay off by the Jackson camp, but now she is apparently ready to share the details of their odd union.

Debbie gave birth to Prince, 12, and Paris, 11 and now tells NOTW she was artificially inseminated by an anonymous donor.

She also does not want custody, according the NOTW interview.

It was at her employer, Dr. Arnie Klein's dermatology office, where the two "lonely" souls bonded according to Rowe. Jackson was sad that Lisa Marie denied him children, and she and Jackson bonded over their alleged love of animals. Before long, she claims to have offered him her uterus in exchange for an undisclosed financial arrangement.

Debbie told NOTW: "Michael was divorced, lonely and wanted children. I was the one who said to him, 'I will have your babies'.

"I offered him my womb - it was a gift. It was something I did to keep him happy."

Debbie compared her pregnancies to that of livestock: She tells NOTW she was "impregnated" like one of the thoroughbred mares she now keeps on her property, adding: "I was just the vessel. It wasn't Michael's sperm.

"I got paid for it, and I've moved on. I know I will never see my children again."

NOTW bulleted the highlights from Rowe's interview:

They never had sex.

Lisa Marie denied him kids and that broke the marriage between them.

The marriage was a total sham.

Jackson ditched Rowe after her second pregnancy left her barren.

"I was comfortable with him. I offered him my womb. We were close enough that I knew I could offer him that, so I did. It was a gift.

"But after the second birth had so many problems, he knew I couldn't have kids any more. He didn't want anything to do with me. He took the kids. The settlement was written up, and he just wanted me to be quiet." Rowe shared with NOTW.

It was while she was pregnant the first time that Jackson arranged for the couple to marry, in a rushed ceremony at the Sheraton Hotel in Sydney in November 1996.

Debbie has no interest in the Jackson children, per NOTW: "I was never a good mother, I never felt any attachment to them. It was a better feeling giving them to him than it was keeping them as my own.

"I know I will never see them again. I was never cut out to be a mother - I was no good. I don't want these children in my life. My children are my animals now."


http://www.monstersandcritics....with_Michael_Jackson
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Original Post
I'm curious as to why EVERY news channel is saying there is a custody battle "looming"? Debbie Rowe doesn't seem to want anything to do with these children so far... The mother of "blanket" is yet to be named.

Is it that media types don 't want to see these "white" children raised by the Jacksons, a black family?

What would the media response be if it were Zahara Jolie-Pitt? would they be fretting over a presumed "looming custody battle"??

and arent Joe and Katherine in their 80's?
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
The media wants sensationalism and discourse and disagreement.

A cordial agreement between the parties based on the best interests of the children would be antithetical to their reason for being.

------------------------------------------------
Quote: "The media wants sensationalism and discourse and disagreement."
yeah
Just watched the press conference with Joe Jackson & Al Sharpton answering media questions on CNN and when the press conference was over, CNN immediately spliced the interview with Michael Jackson being interviewed by Barbara Walters asking Michael if his father abused him and/or beat him, in which Michael said "yes".

The media's attempt to portray him as an abusive parent & father. Mad

As Joe Jackson said, "I whipped my sons but beating/abusing my sons, that's totally something different."

I totally agree with that.

Will it make a difference in granting total custody of the kids? I doubt it so but this is what the media does and takes no blame for it. td6
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Jackson's mother seeks control of singer's estate.

LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Katherine Jackson has filed to become the administrator of Michael Jackson's estate to ensure his three children are its beneficiaries.

The documents filed Monday in Los Angeles state that Jackson's mother should be appointed as the estate's administrator.

Joe Jackson has joined in the petition to try to designate his wife as keeper of the pop icon's estate.

Michael Jackson's mother, having won temporary guardianship of her late son's three children, is now attempting to take control of the "King of Pop's" estate, according to a person close to the court proceedings.

Superior Court Judge Mitchell Beckloff granted Katherine Jackson temporary guardianship of the children on Monday. He also scheduled a hearing for Aug. 3 on Jackson's petition to become permanent guardian of her son's children.

The petition also seeks to name Jackson as administrator of the children's estates, but the judge did not grant that request.

Katherine Jackson filed another court action Monday, seeking to take control of her son's estate, according to a person close to the proceedings who was not authorized to speak publicly on the matter and requested anonymity. She is taking that action with the intent of protecting Jackson's legacy, the person said.

Jackson left behind three children: Michael Joseph Jackson Jr., known as Prince Michael, 12; Paris Michael Katherine Jackson, 11; and Prince Michael II, 7. The youngest son was born to a surrogate mother.

In the request to take over the children's estate, Jackson, 79, lists its value as "unknown."

The filing lists the children as living at the Jacksons' family compound in Los Angeles San Fernando Valley.

"Minor children are currently residing with paternal grandmother," the filing states in an explanation of why Katherine Jackson should be appointed guardian. "They have a long established relationship with paternal grandmother and are comfortable in her care."

Complete coverage:
In Memoriam: Michael Jackson In Focus
Photos: Fans React to Michael Jackson's Death
WonderWall: Stars react to Jackson's passing on Twitter
Discuss: Share your thoughts on Jackson's death
Related: Jackson's music and more
Gallery: Stars react to the news
Latest news: MSNBC has the full story

The filings provide no other declarations by Katherine Jackson, nor do they state whether Michael Jackson left a will.

The filings note that Deborah Rowe is the mother of the Jackson's two eldest children, but list her whereabouts as "unknown." An e-mail message sent to Rowe's attorney seeking comment wasn't immediately returned Monday morning.

For Michael Jackson's third child, nicknamed as Blanket, the filing states "None" for the mother.

Londell McMillan, the Jacksons' attorney, said the family hasn't heard from Deborah Rowe, the mother of Jackson's two oldest children, about custody.

"I don't think there will be anybody who thinks that there is someone better" than Katherine Jackson to have custody, McMillan said Monday on NBC's "Today" show. "She is a very loving host of other grandchildren."

McMillan also said on the "Today" show that the family was "quite clearly troubled" about the circumstances surrounding the death, given that Jackson had appeared healthy enough to be rehearsing for his upcoming concerts in London.

Asked whether the family suspected foul play, McMillan said those words were "too strong an indictment."

Edward Chernoff, a lawyer for Michael Jackson's doctor, Dr. Conrad Murray, said in an interview Sunday with The Associated Press that Jackson still had a faint pulse and a warm body when Murray found him in bed and not breathing Thursday afternoon.

Chernoff said Murray was at the pop icon's rented mansion when he discovered Jackson. The doctor immediately began administering CPR, Chernoff said.

"He just happened to find him in his bed, and he wasn't breathing," the lawyer said. "Mr. Jackson was still warm and had a pulse."

Chernoff said his client never gave or prescribed Jackson the painkillers Demerol or OxyContin, and denied reports suggesting that the doctor gave the pop star drugs that contributed to his death.

Chernoff said any drugs that Murray gave Jackson were prescribed in response to a specific complaint from Jackson.

"Dr. Murray has never prescribed nor administered Demerol to Michael Jackson," Chernoff said. "Not ever. Not that day. ... Not Oxycontin (either) for that matter."

Los Angeles County coroner's officials said their autopsy found no indication of trauma or foul play. But because of additional tests, an official cause of death could take weeks to determine. Jackson's family has requested a private autopsy.

Chernoff said Monday on the "Today" show that once the full investigation is complete, he expected Murray would be exonerated.

There was no word from the family on funeral plans. Many of Jackson's relatives have gathered at the family's Encino compound, caring there for Jackson's three children.

Given the secrecy surrounding Jackson's children throughout his life, it's no surprise that there are lingering questions about who will care for them. What is almost certain is this: Their fate will be decided in a courtroom.

Experts say the person who has the strongest legal claim to Jackson's two oldest children is Rowe. As for the youngest child, Jackson's wishes will be more influential. It remains unclear who Jackson designated as potential guardians for his children. Those details — likely contained in the 50-year-old singer's will — have not been released.

Rowe's attorney, Marta Almli, wrote in a statement Saturday that "Ms. Rowe's only thoughts at this time have been regarding the devastating loss Michael's family has suffered. Ms. Rowe requests that Michael's family, and particularly the children, be spared such harmful, sensationalist speculation and that they be able to say goodbye to their loved one in peace."

Jackson never told his family who he had in place to handle his business affairs, a person close to the family told The Associated Press on Friday. The person, who requested anonymity because of the delicate nature of the situation, said they were told by the singer's phalanx of advisers that he likely had a will, but it may be many years old.

Prince Michael II's mother has never been identified, and while she may surface, it is likely that she signed away her rights, said Stacy Phillips, a Los Angeles divorce attorney who has represented numerous high-profile clients.

Rowe, a former nurse for Jackson's dermatologist, married Jackson in 1996 but filed for divorce in 1999. She later gave up her custody rights to the children, but petitioned to have those rights restored in 2003 after Jackson was arrested on child molestation charges, and an appeals court sided with her.

Jackson and Rowe apparently agreed in 2006 regarding her rights, but the terms have never been disclosed. The couple's divorce case that was heard in Los Angeles Superior Court remains closed.

Phillips said if her parental rights remain intact, she's presumed to be first in line to receive custody of her two children. "That could still be contested," she added.

Rowe would have to undergo an evaluation by the court to determine if she's the best person to care for Jackson's children. So, too, would anyone else who applies to become the children's guardian — some of whom may have Jackson's blessing.

"If he did indicate a preference, that will be given great weight, but that will not be determinative," said Los Angeles attorney Gloria Allred. "Children are not property, they cannot be willed to another person."

Allred agreed that Rowe has better legal standing than others who apply for custody of Jackson's eldest children. "She's definitely going to have an advantage."

But judges in California often take into account who is left in the children's lives with a strong bond, said Charlotte Goldberg, a family law professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles.

"It's really a balance between continuity and stability and a biological relationship," Goldberg said.

A judge deciding the matter may even seek input in chambers from Jackson's children about who they feel comfortable with, she said.

But a court will also take into account with whom the children have a relationship bond, and that may not work in Rowe's favor. She wrote in a 2001 petition to sever her parental rights that she thought Jackson was doing a good parenting job.

"Michael has been a wonderful father to the children, and I do not wish to share any parenting responsibilities with Michael because he is doing so well without me," Rowe wrote. She also indicated in court filings during the 2006 custody struggle that she had not seen the children since 2005, shortly after his trial ended in acquittal on all charges and Jackson moved the children overseas.

Whoever wins custody of Jackson's children won't automatically gain control of their inheritance, Phillips said.

"For many people, the person or persons who are taking care of their kids are not necessarily taking care of their money," Phillips said. "There's a benefit to that — a sort of a check-and-balance."

Rowe, or whoever is designated the children's guardian, will receive payments based on Jackson's estate, Phillips said.

More clarity about the fate of Jackson's children will likely come once court proceedings start.

Phillips said the looming custody fight could be unlike any other.

"In all the cases I've read all over the country," she said, "I've never seen a fact pattern like this."

http://music.msn.com/music/art...ews=417719>1=28102
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fro As I stated in another thread....Joseph is gettin old and he really NEEDS to let his SONS represent the family. Hell he got FIVE boys.... I don't understand why he would go in front of the media like that. He is in my view incapable of handling them. Al Sharpton sho can'tEek Jermaine is perfectly capable of doing so. There's a dignity and integrity about him...that his father[I'm so sorry to say this] lacks. He seems sneaky. And I know sometimes folks laugh when they really are sad and want to cry....but! I have seen a SMILE on daddy Joseph's face TOO much for my taste. I'm not minimizing his love for his son....but! I don't trust him... Hell his own kids didn't trust him and is why they fired him back in the day and why Michael wrote his book about his abuse. There's something....I can't put my finger on it just yet.... not RIGHT with daddy Joseph....but! JMHO is all.

BTW: Maybe it's all those dollar bills I see glowin' behind those dark glasses he's wearing that's givin' it away...I'm just sayinsck

fro
Well, Ms. Katherine also kicked Daddy Jackson to the curb and divorced him many years ago! He still has family ties .. but not a lot of legal ones.

However, he was the 'bulldog' of the family that got those kids famous and their careers off the ground in the first place. They probably need his hard-line, greed-induced management skills at this time to handle the kinds of business that are too devastating for any of the other family members to handle right now. sck
I agree with EbonyRose. They need someone who is hardnosed and has the best interest of those kids in mind. Papa Joe is the one. Jermaine is a good spokesperson & has been for the Jackson family for some years now. But with Marlon Jackson's current business dealings, I think he might be a good candidate as well. If they work as a team, they could get Michael's estate and affairs squared away.
fro @Sistas ER and Yemaya....I don't know ladies. Papa Joe has lost his mojo. And it would be to the family's best interest to pass the power onto the sons. They are just as capable if not more. We're not talking about youngsters....they're in their fifties except for maybe Randy for chrissakes! And Papa Joe needs to know when to hold and when to fold. What??? He's gonna be 100 still dealin business for the family???. Nawl. He needs to step back and step down. Cuz he's raised his sons to be savvy businessmen....what? He doesn't trust 'em? Heard that before. And I know that it is very trying times…but let's not lose our heads or Michael's fortune just cuz Papa Joe has a history of being a bulldog. What do they say? Isn't it...every dog has it day? Well I think this can pertain to Papa Joe too....but! JMHO is all.
This whole thing is a reminder to make sure my bidness is straight/tight at all times. You never know when u gonna bite the big one and leave your po old nearly senile relatives to try to sort through lawyers, custody, business dealings and ish.

Sending up positive vibes for the whole jackson family...

i think i'm a little irked that the media is constantly drumming up "a looming custody battle" on every station, and how debbie rowe really hasn't lost her rights, and how she would be in the best position to get the older 2 kids. It's like some of em resent that MJ has YT "looking" children...
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
This whole thing is a reminder to make sure my bidness is straight/tight at all times. You never know when u gonna bite the big one and leave your po old nearly senile relatives to try to sort through lawyers, custody, business dealings and ish.

Sending up positive vibes for the whole jackson family...

i think i'm a little irked that the media is constantly drumming up "a looming custody battle" on every station, and how debbie rowe really hasn't lost her rights, and how she would be in the best position to get the older 2 kids. It's like some of em resent that MJ has YT "looking" children...

Rowe has no biological/genetic ties to these kids. She was a surrogate for the first two, and nobody knows who the surrogate was for the last one. Moreover, now one knows who the sperm and egg donors were in any of the three instances. This is really going to be a mess.
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:
fro @Sistas ER and Yemaya....I don't know ladies. Papa Joe has lost his mojo. And it would be to the family's best interest to pass the power onto the sons. They are just as capable if not more. We're not talking about youngsters....they're in their fifties except for maybe Randy for chrissakes! And Papa Joe needs to know when to hold and when to fold. What??? He's gonna be 100 still dealin business for the family???. Nawl. He needs to step back and step down. Cuz he's raised his sons to be savvy businessmen....what? He doesn't trust 'em? Heard that before. And I know that it is very trying times…but let's not lose our heads or Michael's fortune just cuz Papa Joe has a history of being a bulldog. What do they say? Isn't it...every dog has it day? Well I think this can pertain to Papa Joe too....but! JMHO is all.


The reason I made my comment was because Katherine and Joe know that they could be gone any day and they want to make sure that those kids have their futures secured. And they are not those younger parents, they are now elders. They probably have a bit more insight now than when they did all those years ago. So I trust them with this decision. And they do also have their children, if they would work together I think the outcome would be good.
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
This whole thing is a reminder to make sure my bidness is straight/tight at all times. You never know when u gonna bite the big one and leave your po old nearly senile relatives to try to sort through lawyers, custody, business dealings and ish.

Sending up positive vibes for the whole jackson family...

i think i'm a little irked that the media is constantly drumming up "a looming custody battle" on every station, and how debbie rowe really hasn't lost her rights, and how she would be in the best position to get the older 2 kids. It's like some of em resent that MJ has YT "looking" children...

Rowe has no biological/genetic ties to these kids. She was a surrogate for the first two, and nobody knows who the surrogate was for the last one. Moreover, now one knows who the sperm and egg donors were in any of the three instances. This is really going to be a mess.


Are you kidding me?! ek MJ's kids may not biologically his???? WTH? Was he afraid of donating his own seed to bring his children into the world?? This IS indeed going to be a mess! SMH
fro Did Michael really 'think he was invincible?Confused Was he actually thinking like a child in that he couldn''t concede that something like that this could ACTUALLY happen? Why didn't he want to use his own sperm? Did he "hate"" who he derived from so bad...that he didn't want to take a chance of having offsprings that may look like his papa? And then why did he use ä "sperm"" he knew? Why couldn't he have gotten unknown sperm donor? The more and more information is revealed....I'm really questioning if Michael had major issues...the kind you need to sit on a couch for. Cuz this is gonna be a BIG mess. And one poster...brought it out: Who gonna RAISE those WHITE kids????? 19 Leave it to Michael to create another milestone...eh?lol I mean if you think about it....a black family bringing up white children as a family unit....um...munch


fro
Originally posted by Yemaya
quote:
The reason I made my comment was because Katherine and Joe know that they could be gone any day and they want to make sure that those kids have their futures secured. And they are not those younger parents, they are now elders. They probably have a bit more insight now than when they did all those years ago. So I trust them with this decision. And they do also have their children, if they would work together I think the outcome would be good.


fro I hear ya my sista...and your commentary is sound...but! I just question Papa Joe is all. I'm not convinced his judgement is. And from the mess he created back in the day....I'm sure this is all Mama Katherine doing[making sure things are tight]. Maybe she's using Papa Joe as a front...but! Did you see him at the Press Meeting yesterday? Cuz...OMG! That's why I'm saying what I'm saying. And I understand them wanting to make sure everything is in check...but! Still the boys who are now MEN...let's not forget the girls who are now WOMEN...except of course for LaToyaRoll Eyes are all capable of handlin the family business. That's my only point. All of 'em RAN from their papa and fired him as soon as they were legally able. Having said that, I'm not trying to minimize what you [and Sista ER]are saying at all...in fact. I would agree with wholeheartedly if it weren't for my itching nagging suspicion about Papa Joe.

fro
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:
Originally posted by Yemaya
quote:
The reason I made my comment was because Katherine and Joe know that they could be gone any day and they want to make sure that those kids have their futures secured. And they are not those younger parents, they are now elders. They probably have a bit more insight now than when they did all those years ago. So I trust them with this decision. And they do also have their children, if they would work together I think the outcome would be good.


fro I hear ya my sista...and your commentary is sound...but! I just question Papa Joe is all. I'm not convinced his judgement is. And from the mess he created back in the day....I'm sure this is all Mama Katherine doing[making sure things are tight]. Maybe she's using Papa Joe as a front...but! Did you see him at the Press Meeting yesterday? Cuz...OMG! That's why I'm saying what I'm saying. And I understand them wanting to make sure everything is in check...but! Still the boys who are now MEN...let's not forget the girls who are now WOMEN...except of course for LaToyaRoll Eyes are all capable of handlin the family business. That's my only point. All of 'em RAN from their papa and fired him as soon as they were legally able. Having said that, I'm not trying to minimize what you [and Sista ER]are saying at all...in fact. I would agree with wholeheartedly if it weren't for my itching nagging suspicion about Papa Joe.

fro


Papa Joe is just an old school dad/player (forever the hustler) living in 2009 but mentally lives in the 1970's who still believes that his grown adult children are still young children that needs to be controlled by his toughness, direction and dictotorial fashion.

He probably tells them all the time to this day, "I am the main and only reason you are here and don't any of you forget it"! I created you, I discovered you, I started this, I made this, I pushed you blah blah blah.........

I have an aunt like that, in her 80's who will still try and chatise you; get a belt, cord or a switch and try to beat you and all her 7 "kids" ranges between 48 to 61!

That old saying "you ain't to old to get an ass whupping" majority older Black parents truly mean that and for the Jacksons, when things got critical and needed "grown up adult" supervision despite the business acumen of his chidren, Joe probably told all of them, including mother Katherine: "I am the father, you are my children, he is my youngest son and I will be in control, out front & handle this, the exact same way he did when he was grooming/pushing them early on as small children to be in the positions they are now.

Joe also battled Berry Gordy when the J5 took off with Motown because he got them there and felt that at the next level, his overwhelmng control and power (Gordy) being challenged by a greater force and all his future dreams slipping away from him.

Joe, all by himself, thought that he could take them to the next level and he wanted no one to interfere with that.

Joe is trying to hustle right now and is trying to do a repeat, recapture the past, at this late stage and wanting to be a major player, dictating, controlling, selling his business ventures and coming to the rescue of his grieving musician children and his family.

All at the expense of MJ's death.

I will be the bulldog, the face and driving force of the Jackson clan during these trying times.

Maybe this way, if successful, he can get back completely into their good graces?

Joe just can't help himself.

One last thing: if momma Katherine gets full custody of the 3 kids, the money and all assets, Joe also gets control of those kids, $$$ and assets also.

Momma Katherine, despit any differences, will not kick Papa Joe to the curb.

Joe "owns" and lives at two residences, Cali and Vegas.

That's how it was waaaay back in the day with legal separations and in Joe's mind and maybe momma Katherine's mind, things have not changed. fro

Also, someone answer me this: when was the last time (over the years) that you saw any of the reclusive Jackson's with the exception of Jermaine, any of them, Marlon, Jackie, Tito, Randy and even Janet out in public view living everyday lives on a consistant basis?

Do they all live on the Jackson compound? Has anyone seen the wives? The husbands? The children? What exactly do they now do for a living? Confused

Maybe MJ wasn't the only eccentric one in the family?

Maybe this is just the way they want it.
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quote:
Originally posted by Cholly:
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:
Originally posted by Yemaya
quote:
The reason I made my comment was because Katherine and Joe know that they could be gone any day and they want to make sure that those kids have their futures secured. And they are not those younger parents, they are now elders. They probably have a bit more insight now than when they did all those years ago. So I trust them with this decision. And they do also have their children, if they would work together I think the outcome would be good.


fro I hear ya my sista...and your commentary is sound...but! I just question Papa Joe is all. I'm not convinced his judgement is. And from the mess he created back in the day....I'm sure this is all Mama Katherine doing[making sure things are tight]. Maybe she's using Papa Joe as a front...but! Did you see him at the Press Meeting yesterday? Cuz...OMG! That's why I'm saying what I'm saying. And I understand them wanting to make sure everything is in check...but! Still the boys who are now MEN...let's not forget the girls who are now WOMEN...except of course for LaToyaRoll Eyes are all capable of handlin the family business. That's my only point. All of 'em RAN from their papa and fired him as soon as they were legally able. Having said that, I'm not trying to minimize what you [and Sista ER]are saying at all...in fact. I would agree with wholeheartedly if it weren't for my itching nagging suspicion about Papa Joe.

fro


Papa Joe is just an old school dad/player (forever the hustler) living in 2009 but mentally lives in the 1970's who still believes that his grown adult children are still young children that needs to be controlled by his toughness, direction and dictotorial fashion.

He probably tells them all the time to this day, "I am the main and only reason you are here and don't any of you forget it"! I created you, I discovered you, I started this, I made this, I pushed you blah blah blah.........

I have an aunt like that, in her 80's who will still try and chatise you; get a belt, cord or a switch and try to beat you and all her 7 "kids" ranges between 48 to 61!

That old saying "you ain't to old to get an ass whupping" majority older Black parents truly mean that and for the Jacksons, when things got critical and needed "grown up adult" supervision despite the business acumen of his chidren, Joe probably told all of them, including mother Katherine: "I am the father, you are my children, he is my youngest son and I will be in control, out front & handle this, the exact same way he did when he was grooming/pushing them early on as small children to be in the positions they are now.

Joe also battled Berry Gordy when the J5 took off with Motown because he got them there and felt that at the next level, his overwhelmng control and power (Gordy) being challenged by a greater force and all his future dreams slipping away from him.

Joe, all by himself, thought that he could take them to the next level and he wanted no one to interfere with that.

Joe is trying to hustle right now and is trying to do a repeat, recapture the past, at this late stage and wanting to be a major player, dictating, controlling, selling his business ventures and coming to the rescue of his grieving musician children and his family.

All at the expense of MJ's death.

I will be the bulldog, the face and driving force of the Jackson clan during these trying times.

Maybe this way, if successful, he can get back completely into their good graces?

Joe just can't help himself.

One last thing: if momma Katherine gets full custody of the 3 kids, the money and all assets, Joe also gets control of those kids, $$$ and assets also.

Momma Katherine, despit any differences, will not kick Papa Joe to the curb.

Joe "owns" and lives at two residences, Cali and Vegas.

That's how it was waaaay back in the day with legal separations and in Joe's mind and maybe momma Katherine's mind, things have not changed. fro

Also, someone answer me this: when was the last time (over the years) that you saw any of the reclusive Jackson's with the exception of Jermaine, any of them, Marlon, Jackie, Tito, Randy and even Janet out in public view living everyday lives on a consistant basis?

Do they all live on the Jackson compound? Has anyone seen the wives? The husbands? The children? What exactly do they now do for a living? Confused

Maybe MJ wasn't the only eccentric one in the family?

Maybe this is just the way they want it.


yeah Excellent breakdown.. my sentiments almost to the tee...
quote:
Originally posted by Cholly:

Also, someone answer me this: when was the last time (over the years) that you saw any of the reclusive Jackson's with the exception of Jermaine, any of them, Marlon, Jackie, Tito, Randy and even Janet out in public view living everyday lives on a consistant basis?

Do they all live on the Jackson compound? Has anyone seen the wives? The husbands? The children? What exactly do they now do for a living? Confused

Maybe MJ wasn't the only eccentric one in the family?

Maybe this is just the way they want it.


Nope, last I heard ... ALL the chickens had left the roost! The compound is 'the family home' where Mama Kathrine lives and holds things down. The kids usually only go back there when they're in trouble .. like when Janet got her 'not-so secret divorce' from her 'secret husband' ... or while Mike was having his little kiddie problems.

I know they all have been married and divorced at least one wife .. and all of them have a bunch of kids! Eek It also seems to me that either Jermaine or Marlon had become a Muslim and changed his name ... 19 Eek At any rate ... the whole entire family has had some major issues since the group disbanded! Nobody was spared. There was even some controversy about the oldest girl, Rebe (I think her name was) ... a few years back.

I think Jackie is the only one who still dabbles in music ... he was supposed to be discovering some group a few years back .. but I don't think they ever materialized.

I've seen interviews where more than one of them have said that they all don't talk to each other all the time and months may go by without seeing or talking to each other ... but they're still family and they all still love each other. And Mama Katherine is definitely in charge. What she says goes.

And that goes for Pops, too! She's letting him handle things because she's probably just devastated right now! But, when the rubber hits the road ... you can best believe it's going to be HER who's driving that car! Eek
fro Brotha Cholly: I agree with Sista EbonyRose. And will go as far as to say that Papa Joe is a BULLY. Being a bully doesn't equate with being a good parent-although you didn't say that...but! I don't have the time to go into right now...but! Super Fly is Dead! And Pimp....Oops I mean Papa Joe is probably there cuz Katherine has so much to deal with it and need his support. But be sure she controls it all. Papa had his chance and blew it long time ago...with his infideity and abusive behavior with his children. I wish I can say more...but! I'll leave it at that for now.

fro
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:
fro Brotha Cholly: I agree with Sista EbonyRose. And will go as far as to say that Papa Joe is a BULLY. Being a bully doesn't equate with being a good parent-although you didn't say that...but! I don't have the time to go into right now...but! Super Fly is Dead! And Pimp....Oops I mean Papa Joe is probably there cuz Katherine has so much to deal with it and need his support. But be sure she controls it all. Papa had his chance and blew it long time ago...with his infideity and abusive behavior with his children. I wish I can say more...but! I'll leave it at that for now.

fro


Eventhough Papa Joe is separated and has lost his full martial relationship & rights with Momma Katherine (yet they are still legally married) and he won't be movin' back to the Jackson compound when this is all settled, probably/hope not, years from now at least they are keepig it in house and doing this as a family with chosen insiders and keeping the media vultures at bay & guessing.

You know how us Black folk do: we may have a serious problem with a family members(s) but we do not completely kick to the curb, disown and/or totally disregard them.

There is still love despite the circumstances. That's how we do.

In times of trouble, even the worst family offender will be/can be given a reprieve, get help if necessary and be allowed to step up to the plate to give a helping hand if needed.

We don't say "I hate him/her, "I wish that you would die" or I disown you and I/we as a family, don't want to see you ever gain for the rest of our lives". "You are no longer welcomed here."

That's what White folk do. Black folk don't roll like that. We are too strong.

So despite Papa Joe being who Papa Joe is to the family, good & bad, his "bully" history and all his other past transgressions, they will, as a family, circle the wagons, form a tight circle around family and handle this the Jackson way and when it's all over and the dust settles, they will go back to living & being the quiet, private & reclusive Jackson clan that we all see every now & again but all support, love & appreciate. tfro
Originally posted Cholly
quote:
Eventhough Papa Joe is separated and has lost his full martial relationship & rights with Momma Katherine (yet they are still legally married)


fro What!!??? They're still MARRIED? What could she possibly be "thinking?" I thought they were divorced. Wow!

quote:

You know how us Black folk do: we may have a serious problem with a family members(s) but we do not completely kick to the curb, disown and/or totally disregard them.


This is MORE than just a serious problem with a family member. He was accused with some deep stuff: sexual abuse to two daughters. And constantly beating on his kids-even waking them up out of their sleep to practice. That's HUGE! Although some women turn their heads when this form of behavior is conducted....but! As in this case....however. The children haven't forgotten/forgiven even if the mother has-which is typical in many cases.

quote:


There is still love despite the circumstances. That's how we do.


Are you SURE that's love or long term FEAR that was beaten into them as children?

quote:
In times of trouble, even the worst family offender will be/can be given a reprieve, get help if necessary and be allowed to step up to the plate to give a helping hand if needed.


Sorry. I don't see it quite that way.

quote:


We don't say "I hate him/her, "I wish that you would die" or I disown you and I/we as a family, don't want to see you ever gain for the rest of our lives". "You are no longer welcomed here."

That's what White folk do. Black folk don't roll like that. We are too strong.


Strong or too damaged as broken adults?

quote:

So despite Papa Joe being who Papa Joe is to the family, good & bad, his "bully" history and all his other past transgressions, they will, as a family, circle the wagons, form a tight circle around family and handle this the Jackson way and when it's all over and the dust settles, they will go back to living & being the quiet, private & reclusive Jackson clan that we all see every now & again but all support, love & appreciate.


I agree that it just may be merely perception[sp]. However, there are valid reasons why the boys now men are not in the public eye. We will NEVER know....but! I can surmised that when children are abused throughout their childhood it not unusual for them [to want]to live their adult lives as you say reclusive, private and quiet and away from the things or memories that brought them pain....into the things that [they can control that will] bring them joy and healing. I'm just saying....but! JMHO is all.

fro
Heeeeeeeeeere we go! Mad




Jackson’s ex Rowe says, "I want my children"

Pop star’s wife of three years willing to submit to DNA testing.

Debbie Rowe wants custody of the two children she had with Michael Jackson.

“I want my children,” Rowe said during a 90-minute phone conversation Thursday morning with Chuck Henry of KNBC in Los Angeles.

Rowe said she was willing to submit to any testing, including DNA, to prove that she is the children's true biological mother. Rowe also said she would submit to psychological testing.

She also said she would seek a restraining order to keep Jackson's father, Joe Jackson, away from the children.

During a press conference on Thursday, Rowe's lawyer, Eric George, said his client “has not reached a final decision pending final custody.” He added, “It would be distortion to allow that snapshot to stand as truth of Debbie's position on these matters.”

The current custody agreement does allow for visitation, but Rowe said it's a very difficult process.

"I am stepping up," Rowe said. "I have to."

Rowe said she was still grieving. She said she decided she had to seek custody after Jackson's death.

Jackson, who died at age 50, left behind three children: son Michael Joseph Jr., known as Prince Michael, 12; daughter Paris Michael Katherine, 11; and son Prince Michael II, 7. Rowe was the mother of the two oldest children.

The youngest was born to a surrogate mother, who has never been identified.

Rowe said she was concerned about splitting up the children. She said she did not expect the court to grant custody of the third child, but added that she would be willing to accept custody.

Rowe, who was married to Jackson in 1996 and filed for divorce three years later, surrendered her parental rights. An appeals court later found that was done in error, and Rowe and Jackson entered an out-of-court settlement in 2006.

Earlier this week, Jackson's mother was appointed temporary guardian of the children, pending a hearing on Monday. A will signed by Jackson in 2002 and filed with the court Wednesday requests that Katherine Jackson be named guardian of the children, but in the event of her death, he asked that singer Diana Ross be appointed.

The will also specifically leaves Rowe out of any inheritance.

"I have intentionally omitted to provide for my former wife, Deborah Jean Rowe Jackson," the will states.

Rowe's attorney, Eric George, told the Los Angeles Times he will be at the custody hearing Monday to represent her, however, George requested a delay in the hearing on Thursday and a Los Angeles County judge has granted the request.

The hearing had been scheduled for Monday. Records show attorneys for both sides asked for the hearing to be delayed until July 13.

Another hearing scheduled for Monday on who will take temporary control of Jackson’s estate will proceed.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31...ent-music/?GT1=43001
Quote from Kocoilicious: "What!!??? They're still MARRIED? What could she possibly be "thinking?" I thought they were divorced. Wow!
------------------------------------------------
Koco, not suprising.

Couples back then (who are elderly grandparents now) who had martial problems that were grounds for divorce did not divorce but legally separate. And despite their differences, they still love, depend on and care for each other.

The sancity of marriage was not the same back then as today, despite being rich, middle class or poor, where any and every little thing or difference today will be grounds to terminate were back then, issues that "just happens" in a marriage.

You work them out and had a strong support structure (especially the women) and even if separation did occur, there was not (in the majority) the total disregard, the hate and uninvolvement many have today.

That's not to say that many marriages back then were not hard, even horrible for many (and yes, spousal abuse was rampant) and couples did not go their complete separate ways, but religion, everyday struggles, racism and limited opportunities seemed to become a glue to keep couples fighting on and deal with the negative internals along with the negative externals.

I have direct personal knowledge of that from being raised around my mother and other family relatives.

I have an aunt & uncle who are legally separated after 33 years of marriage, did not divorce, he lives about 5 blocks away with another women, she sees someone else but they still love, care and tend to each other and their grown children no different than if they were still living together.

If she needs, he gives. If he needs, she gives and it works for them.

And they are not mad at each other for any reason.

Today, continually leave the toilet seat up? Don't walk the dog? Won't cook? Not equally helping with the young kids etc etc,? Grounds for divorce.

Back then couples had to deal with extreme negative forces, inside & out, in an extreme racist society and you need to stay together to make it and survive, so yes there were martial problems, no different than today, but the married conditioning of dealing with constant struggles did not allow time to focus on those things (that many elders call "petty") that break up couples today.

Many people today say, "I would never put up with what my mother or father put up with in their marriage" and many had unhappy and sad marriages but they preservered for 30+, 40+. 50+ years.

They just believed heavily in God, prayed, worked at it, family support, hung in there and that's what Katherine & Joe are doing, hanging in with each other and being parents and grandparents to their kids and yes, there is love there, not total fear.
fro I don't know Brotha Cholly. It's not so much sticking with the marriage through thick and thin which concerns me. It's the damage done to the children as a result of violent and reckless behavior. Let's not forget about the kids now adults. We can't minimize what they went through for the sake of sticking together. And the great difference is….back then you can BEAT the hell outta your wife, kids and even kick the dog…and! There was NOTHING the police could do. However, as a result of this unfair practice many women DIED. So. Although I do understand where you're coming from…staying for the kids sake or staying in an unequal situation has been detrimental to many women...including their kids.

Again….I don't know if it's more control and not giving up the terrority [Papa Joe's case] than it is love. Katherine didn't go find her a man[which she should have cuz at that time she was still a young woman]....however Joe has many notches on his belt....including a child out of one of 'em. But. Some men think differently. They feel they have a right to go out there and do their thang...but! Their wife or woman shouldn't. The good ole DOUBLE standard at its best. But! I hear ya my brotha...I do.

BTW: I know a financially successful [extremely intelligent] couple who were together for thirty plus years. And during those years homeboy [a professor of law] beat the hell outta girlfriend...who felt he didn't love her unless he hit her while paying for her lifestyle. And when he died, she only dated men who were not only well-to-do but violent. So. What does that tell ya??sck

fro
Hmmmmm .... maybe divorce wasn't a good option for Ms. Katherine at the time. I'm sure her children had made her independently wealthy by the time she had finally got enough of him and kicked him to the curb! Eek

Divorce + California = 1/2 of community property! ek

Now, I'm sure Papa Joe is quite comfortable on his own ... but what she's in charge of ... she only has to share if (and what) she wants to, with things currently as they are!
fro Katherine doesn't strike me as a materialistic woman per se. She seem more spiritual. I bet anything....she would have given a lung to get rid of Pimp Joe...but! probably chose not to cuz of her religion i.e. given him another chance to straigthen up. The way things were going with Michael....she could have split the property....and gain more after the divorce since Michael was doing so well....and plus he probably would have been sooooo happy, he would have bought her a even BIGGER home and showered her with soooo many gifts..she would have forgotten all about what her and Papa/Pimp Joe acquired during the marriage....but!

fro
Well, no ... I didn't mean it in a "Mine, mine, all mine" kinda way. I agree with the spiritual part ... but, she strikes me as first and foremost to look out for and more importantly PROTECT the family and their interests - financially and every other way - at all costs.

Mr. Joseph lives in another STATE. Which is probably okay by her. Out of sight, out of mind. But, he is their daddy ... family affairs means he's present when they happen.

Whatever the situation ... Mama Katherine is definitely in charge. She - not he - is the rock. So, whatever is going on ... is because that's the way she wants it. But, I imagine she is simply devastated by the lost of her baby boy. She's probably handling just about all she can right now. And the rest - especially the press - can deal with somebody else ... even that nutcase she used to call a husband. sck
Originally posted by Ebonyrose:
quote:
Well, no ... I didn't mean it in a "Mine, mine, all mine" kinda way. I agree with the spiritual part ... but, she strikes me as first and foremost to look out for and more importantly PROTECT the family and their interests - financially and every other way - at all costs.

Mr. Joseph lives in another STATE. Which is probably okay by her. Out of sight, out of mind. But, he is their daddy ... family affairs means he's present when they happen.

Whatever the situation ... Mama Katherine is definitely in charge. She - not he - is the rock. So, whatever is going on ... is because that's the way she wants it. But, I imagine she is simply devastated by the lost of her baby boy. She's probably handling just about all she can right now. And the rest - especially the press - can deal with somebody else ... even that nutcase she used to call a husband. sck


fro I. TOTALLY. AGREE! Besides, that's when everybody come out of the wood works....the minute someone dies. Folks you haven't seen in years...talkin' about wantin' to help! You know what kinda help they wanna do too. I feel for her. You're right Sista ER....absolutely!tfro


BTW: They wanted to charge $25 to view Michael's body at the Staples Center. The media went wild....and then the family announced that the tickets to attend will be FREE....and the media went wild again...askin' "who's gonna pay for this?" Well we know the Jackson's gonna foot most of the bill....but! When I heard the news I knew Katherine was the one to say the fans will not be charged a dime! That my friend is class. Beautiful. Unselfish class. OMG! That's how you send your baby off....in style and grace.

fro
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Well, no ... I didn't mean it in a "Mine, mine, all mine" kinda way. I agree with the spiritual part ... but, she strikes me as first and foremost to look out for and more importantly PROTECT the family and their interests - financially and every other way - at all costs.

Mr. Joseph lives in another STATE. Which is probably okay by her. Out of sight, out of mind. But, he is their daddy ... family affairs means he's present when they happen.

Whatever the situation ... Mama Katherine is definitely in charge. She - not he - is the rock. So, whatever is going on ... is because that's the way she wants it. But, I imagine she is simply devastated by the lost of her baby boy. She's probably handling just about all she can right now. And the rest - especially the press - can deal with somebody else ... even that nutcase she used to call a husband. sck


As a Jehovah Witness she wouldn't be so quick to divorce, although she could have (gotten a scriptural or biblical divorce) because of his adultery.

The bible allows for divorce if one partner has fornicated, so Jehovah Witness will divorce on those grounds but they are also encouraged to stay together (if possible).

Anyway, I think her religious beliefs have a lot to do with 'why' she chose to remain married and IMO, this strong faith (in G.d) will continue to sustain her.
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:

This is MORE than just a serious problem with a family member. He was accused with some deep stuff: sexual abuse to two daughters. And constantly beating on his kids-even waking them up out of their sleep to practice. That's HUGE! Although some women turn their heads when this form of behavior is conducted....but! As in this case....however. The children haven't forgotten/forgiven even if the mother has-which is typical in many cases.




For real? ek I knew about the bullying and the physical abuse to the boys, but i didn't know about the sexual abuse part. But it would explain LaToya's behavior/personality...dang!
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:

This is MORE than just a serious problem with a family member. He was accused with some deep stuff: sexual abuse to two daughters. And constantly beating on his kids-even waking them up out of their sleep to practice. That's HUGE! Although some women turn their heads when this form of behavior is conducted....but! As in this case....however. The children haven't forgotten/forgiven even if the mother has-which is typical in many cases.




For real? ek I knew about the bullying and the physical abuse to the boys, but i didn't know about the sexual abuse part. But it would explain LaToya's behavior/personality...dang!


She was with her abusive former husband at the time who forced her to say those things to attract tabloid attention. She later recanted and admitted it wasn't true. She was estranged from the family during the time because her abusive husband isolated her from them and beat her. From what I heard she may have also been on drugs at the time to cope with the emotional stress of it all. He also may have written parts of her book.

quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:

BTW: They wanted to charge $25 to view Michael's body at the Staples Center. The media went wild....and then the family announced that the tickets to attend will be FREE....and the media went wild again...askin' "who's gonna pay for this?" Well we know the Jackson's gonna foot most of the bill....but! When I heard the news I knew Katherine was the one to say the fans will not be charged a dime! That my friend is class. Beautiful. Unselfish class. OMG! That's how you send your baby off....in style and grace.

fro


Get outta here!! Selling tickets to a funeral?? Eek Confused And I heard a news report the other day that said that the body wouldn't even be there. In fact, they're not sure whether or not the family, itself, is going to show up.

Well, good for her! appl I'm glad she put a stop to that mess!

But, I do wonder why they didn't decide to lay him 'in state' somewhere for a few days to let fans go through and pay their last respects?
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:

This is MORE than just a serious problem with a family member. He was accused with some deep stuff: sexual abuse to two daughters. And constantly beating on his kids-even waking them up out of their sleep to practice. That's HUGE! Although some women turn their heads when this form of behavior is conducted....but! As in this case....however. The children haven't forgotten/forgiven even if the mother has-which is typical in many cases.




For real? ek I knew about the bullying and the physical abuse to the boys, but i didn't know about the sexual abuse part. But it would explain LaToya's behavior/personality...dang!


She was with her abusive former husband at the time who forced her to say those things to attract tabloid attention. She later recanted and admitted it wasn't true. She was estranged from the family during the time because her abusive husband isolated her from them and beat her. From what I heard she may have also been on drugs at the time to cope with the emotional stress of it all. He also may have written parts of her book.



I cannot believe how much LaToya and Micheal look alike if she hasn't had the exact same surgeries as him! Eek It's really phenomenal. It's like he patterned his exact look after her.
Originally posted by Negrospiritual
quote:
For real? I knew about the bullying and the physical abuse to the boys, but i didn't know about the sexual abuse part. But it would explain LaToya's behavior/personality...dang!


fro Well...from what Brotha EP says she was brainwashed by that no good ex-husband of hers...but! Experience with children tells me that most times when someone yells "child abuse" and behave in the way LaToya has on drugs or NOT...somethin' brewin in the kitchen. Although I think her mother[not sure] came forward and said LaToya was lyin'...I don't remember Papa Joe ever sayin' a word to refute this. But rumor has it that it was not only LaToya...but! Rebe. Janet was too young. And as other celebrities, Billie Holiday, Josephine Baker, [I think Tina Turner, not sure] Roseanne, Oprah and a couple of men [I can't think of their names right now]....it's a long process.

I don't even think Oprah's mother admitted that her brother abused her child....I think she could be in denial...like soooooo many other women in that generation. They prefer to look the other way....when they know DAMN well their child is being abuse....and for me. I think this is the case with LaToya...cuz drugs make you behave certain way....and you can tell when a person is on drugs...but! If you look carefully you can also tell the behavior/personality of a sexually abused child(as an adult)...and LaToya even though they [her family came and got her and] put her in hiding....she has all the symptoms...but! I'm just sayin'

fro
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:

This is MORE than just a serious problem with a family member. He was accused with some deep stuff: sexual abuse to two daughters. And constantly beating on his kids-even waking them up out of their sleep to practice. That's HUGE! Although some women turn their heads when this form of behavior is conducted....but! As in this case....however. The children haven't forgotten/forgiven even if the mother has-which is typical in many cases.




For real? ek I knew about the bullying and the physical abuse to the boys, but i didn't know about the sexual abuse part. But it would explain LaToya's behavior/personality...dang!


She was with her abusive former husband at the time who forced her to say those things to attract tabloid attention. She later recanted and admitted it wasn't true. She was estranged from the family during the time because her abusive husband isolated her from them and beat her. From what I heard she may have also been on drugs at the time to cope with the emotional stress of it all. He also may have written parts of her book.



I cannot believe how much LaToya and Micheal look alike if she hasn't had the exact same surgeries as him! Eek It's really phenomenal. It's like he patterned his exact look after her.


They even looked alike before their surgeries IMHO:



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