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quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
Of course its revenge, I didn't said this had anything to do with justice, justice would be getting it done quickly so they don't get to hang around for 10-15 years waiting, convicted beyond all reasonable doubt, get 120 days to appeal to make sure everything was done right and hey hey goodbye. Justice would be making sure that they died in agony just like the victims.

I still don't understand how you can fault someone for being overly emotional when their family is slaughtered, being over emotionally is if the guy steals your car and you want him put to death, killing a family of four as this person did qualifies as a emotional event and any response to that is expected and reasonably in my book.

As for relishing the opportunity to watch the person who slaughtered my family die, absolutely.


Then why did you take exception of my characterization of proponents of the death penalty? You seem quite comfortable being vengeful and overly-emotional about this specific issue.
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksanction:
I find it stunningly brilliant that execution was invented by whites to the detriment of blacks.
To actually believe that prior to slavery that our black ancestors lived in harmony with neighbouring tribes is absolute bullshit and fantasy.
Believe what you want, but the killing of other people has been around for as long as man has been able to put his hands around the neck of his fellow man.


I know we didn't dance around the fire with spears and wake up singing e'ery day, but I can imagine it was ahellofalot better than waking up in the "belly of the beast."

Fine
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-111705tookie_lat,0...ll=la-home-headlines
L.A. Officers Urge 'No Mercy' for Tookie Williams
By Henry Weinstein
Times Staff Writer

2:53 PM PST, November 17, 2005


Los Angeles' top law enforcement officers today urged Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger to have no mercy for Stanley Tookie Williams, the gang co-founder convicted of four murders who is to be executed Dec. 13.

Williams is a "coldblooded killer" who has "left his mark forever on our society by co-founding one of the most vicious, brutal gangs in existence, the Crips," according to the statement urging Schwarzenegger to deny clemency.

The letter was from Los Angeles County Dist. Atty. Steve Cooley, Los Angeles Police Chief William Bratton and Los Angeles County Sheriff Lee Baca.

"Williams now seeks mercy, the very mercy he so callously denied" his four victims, according to the document, designed to counter Williams' clemency petition submitted this month.

"Despite the overwhelming nature of the evidence against him, and despite the nonexistence of any credible defense, Stanley Williams steadfastly refused to take any responsibility for the brutal, destructive and murderous acts he committed," according to the statement. "Without such responsibility, there can be no redemption, there can be no atonement, and there should be no mercy."

In addition, Cooley sent a letter saying that since Williams founded the Crips, the gang "has been responsible for literally thousands of murders in Los Angeles County alone."

Baca and Bratton also sent letters urging Schwarzenegger to show no mercy for Williams, now 51, who publicly renounced gang life nearly a decade ago. He has written several books urging youths to avoid joining gangs, a point cited frequently by those urging clemency, including a number of religious leaders and some elected officials.

Lawyers have filed a last-ditch attempt to save Williams, claiming that the police investigation was inadequate into the Feb. 28, 1979 slayings.

James Garrett, his wife, Esther, and a man named Samuel Coleman testified that Williams told them he had committed the murders. Years later, Coleman filed a sworn declaration saying that he was severely beaten by police and that he was offered immunity in exchange for testifying against Williams. The Garretts were facing criminal charges at the time and later received probation on those charges.

Williams was convicted of the shootings of Albert Owens, who was killed in a robbery of a 7-Eleven store on Feb. 27, 1979, and of motel owners Yen-I Yang and Thsai-Shaic Yang and their daughter, Yee Chen Lin, at the Brookhaven Motel on South Vermont Avenue 12 days later.

No physical evidence linked Williams to Owens' murder. The key witness against Williams was Alfred Coward, who testified that he, Williams and two other men went to the store to rob it and that Williams shot Owens. Coward testified under a grant of immunity from prosecution. He is now in prison in Canada for killing a man during a robbery.
http://www.blackamericaweb.com/site.aspx/bawnews/tookie1118
Despite Acclaim, ˜Tookie' Williams' Redemption Doubted by Jail Officials
Date: Thursday, November 17, 2005
By: Kim Curtis, Associated Press

SAN QUENTIN, Calif. (AP) - As murderer and Crips co-founder Stanley "Tookie" Williams tries to stave off execution next month, California prison officials have launched an unusual counterattack against the notion that he has redeemed himself behind bars.

The Corrections Department earlier this month posted a press release on its Web site about the upcoming execution, detailing Williams' crimes and asserting that he has been a gang leader while on death row at San Quentin Prison.

San Quentin spokesman Vernell Crittendon, speaking on behalf of the department, went further in an interview last week, saying he suspects Williams is orchestrating gangland crimes from his cell.

"I just don't know that his heart is changed," Crittendon said.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Everybody wants to paint people who want revenge as being irrational where in reality I think that wanting revenge is rational and right.
JazzDog, being "overly emotional" by definition is irrational.


The point is not that being overly emotional is irrational, the point is what makes wanting revenge for a hiderous crime "overly emotional". There is nothing overly emotional about believeing that when someone committs a henious crime they should paid the ultimate price as long as his/her guilt is clearly established.

Is someone who is aganist capital punishment just as overly emotional or does it only applied to people who support capital punishment, I mean those folks who will surely be outside the prison demostrating, would you consider them overly emotional about the subject or are they consider to be calm and collective in their emotions and through process.
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
The point is not that being overly emotional is irrational, the point is what makes wanting revenge for a hiderous crime "overly emotional".


When your behavior is ruled by your emotions, that is being overly-emotional. I stated in a previous post that wanting revenge is normal, but holding onto those vengeful feelings until you get satisfaction is another.

quote:
There is nothing overly emotional about believeing that when someone committs a henious crime they should paid the ultimate price as long as his/her guilt is clearly established.


When the "ultimate price" is another murder sanctioned by the state, that is overly emotional.

quote:
Is someone who is aganist capital punishment just as overly emotional or does it only applied to people who support capital punishment, I mean those folks who will surely be outside the prison demostrating, would you consider them overly emotional about the subject or are they consider to be calm and collective in their emotions and through process.


Among activists who have a pet cause, surely there are the fanatics. But the focus here is on individuals whose family members have been victims. A better comparison would be families of victims who actively seek the death penalty versus those who come out against it.

My opinion is that they are not. Those who actively seek the death penalty, and especially those who want to be there for the execution, are run ragged by their emotions. A television show followed a family who wanted to be there when the switch was flipped and they were just sad. Not because their loved one was dead, they were sad because their raison de'tre for all those years was to see the perpetrator executed. After it was over, members of the family said they felt no real satisfaction because the death was "too easy."

Those who come out against the death penalty for the perpetrators of crimes against their family members are, by contrast, serene. Their lives seem more full and they are able to understand what revenge would really mean for them on an emotional level. In the scheme of things, not much. Their loved ones are still dead and another death won't change that.

Life w/out parole ensures they are punished for the rest of their life, and allows for the possibility for rehabilitation. And, their rehabilitation may turn them into a real live deterrent for someone else. (Note: refer to the death penalty not being a deterrent posts)
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
The point is not that being overly emotional is irrational, the point is what makes wanting revenge for a hiderous crime "overly emotional". There is nothing overly emotional about believeing that when someone committs a henious crime they should paid the ultimate price as long as his/her guilt is clearly established.

Is someone who is aganist capital punishment just as overly emotional or does it only applied to people who support capital punishment, I mean those folks who will surely be outside the prison demostrating, would you consider them overly emotional about the subject or are they consider to be calm and collective in their emotions and through process.


tfro
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
Yes, It should be noted that no one said he didn't do the crimes, the whole argument for him not being excuted is the idea that he is a changed man who has atoned for his crimes though his writings.


Great Answer! On Topic!

Yes, he has atoned for his crimes thorough his writings, but should remain in jail rather than be executed....

Fine
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/11/21/MNGUFFRRP11.DTL

Governor dreading decision on life or death
Without clemency, Williams' execution is just weeks away

Sacramento -- It was 1976, according to Stanley Tookie Williams, when he met a young Austrian bodybuilder along the Venice Beach boardwalk, then the epicenter of the Southern California muscle culture.

Williams, who was a hard-bodied weight lifter as well as a notorious gang member, recounted the brief encounter in a book published last year: Arnold Schwarzenegger was so impressed with Williams' physique, he noted that Williams' biceps were as big as thighs.

Nearly 30 years later, the two men are again crossing paths.

With the world watching, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger must decide in the next few weeks whether Williams will live or die.

Williams, 51, the co-founder of the Crips gang and a four-time murderer who has become an anti-gang crusader and Nobel Peace Prize nominee, is scheduled to be executed at San Quentin State Prison on Dec. 13.

With court appeals nearly exhausted, Williams has pointed to the children's books and gang-peace initiatives he has produced from behind prison walls as proof he is a reformed man and worthy of clemency. Sunday was the last day of a weeklong "Tookie Williams Teach-in" that included a rally outside the gates of San Quentin on Saturday featuring the rapper Snoop Dogg.

Prosecutors argue that a man responsible for four shotgun murders who was involved in nearly a dozen violent incidents in his first decade in prison -- before he changed his ways -- deserves the sentence a jury recommended.

After a year of plummeting popularity and squabbles with Democrats and labor unions over sometimes-arcane ideas about ways to change government, Schwarzenegger now turns to a more basic and far more gut-wrenching task.

He must contemplate crime and punishment, redemption and race. Williams is asking that Schwarzenegger buck a strong national trend that has turned clemency based on atonement into a political third rail.

Just a few weeks after a special election that marked the low point of Schwarzenegger's tenure as governor, he is faced with a decision he admitted this week that he dreads.

"I know he will agonize over this," said state Sen. Gloria Romero, D-Los Angeles, who has worked with Schwarzenegger on prison reform and is advocating clemency for Williams, with whom she met earlier this month. "I know this governor believes in redemption. He has approached crime and punishment with a little more thought than just 'hang 'em high.' The question is whether he will take the political risk."

Clemency is a unique and absolute power bestowed upon the executive branch; governors and presidents have virtually unchecked authority to overturn a death sentence or even set someone free. Missouri Gov. Mel Carnahan commuted a death sentence in his state in 1999, he said, because Pope John Paul II asked him to.

"It's almost a divine power," noted Austin Sarat, a professor of law and political science at Amherst College in Massachusetts and author of a book on clemency called "Mercy on Trial: What It Means to Stop an Execution."

Clemency has become extremely rare. Sarat noted that aside from the mass Death Row commutation extended by Illinois Gov. George Ryan in 2003, there had been only a dozen acts of clemency in the last decade; there were 143 such acts during the 1960s.

Ronald Reagan was the last California governor to commute a death sentence, in 1967.

Recent governors around the country have virtually abandoned the idea of "mercy-based clemency," as Sarat describes it: the idea that a condemned inmate has redeemed himself after conviction.

"There's simply no political gain in it," Sarat said. "If you grant someone clemency, who's happy? The person on death row, his family; but there's usually a whole lot more people who are unhappy."

Politicians as diverse in philosophy as President Bush and former President Bill Clinton said as governors they would not consider clemency unless there was evidence of innocence or an unfair trial.

Bush famously refused to consider pickax murderer Karla Faye Tucker's conversion to Christianity in prison, and she was executed in Texas in 1998.

Williams has never admitted guilt for the crimes he was convicted of: the murders of Albert Owens, Yen-I Yang, Tsai-Shai Yang and Yee-Chen Lin during two separate robberies in 1979. His petition for clemency briefly alleges that evidence against Williams was circumstantial and that there was racial bias against Williams, who is black, in the convening of an all-white jury.

Instead, the bulk of Williams' plea making has been in the last dozen years. Included in the petition for clemency are Williams' books, his Nobel Peace Prize nomination letter, dozens of e-mails from kids, school officials and others praising his work, even a movie made about him that starred Oscar-winning actor Jamie Foxx.

"The question here is if you don't give clemency based on his personal redemption, based on the thousands of people he has touched, who would you give it to?" asked Jonathan Harris, a New York-based lawyer working for Williams.

Schwarzenegger has already denied clemency requests from two condemned inmates, and one of them, Donald Beardslee, was executed in January. But the governor's feelings about the death penalty are not clear-cut.

In an interview with The Chronicle's editorial board just before the Beardslee execution, Schwarzenegger acknowledged that he came from a country where capital punishment is anathema and suggested he still wrestled with the issue, which he characterized as "heavy stuff."

"I grew up with the mentality that this is an absolute no-no," he said. "And so you're dealing with that, which is very odd. I mean, very few people have that chance to live in a body with kind of two brains. Kind of like the Austrian brain and the American brain. ... They're fighting with each other all the time, you know, where I can argue with myself about those things."

That is a much less black-and-white opinion of the death penalty than many California politicians running for statewide office would admit. And without much fanfare, Schwarzenegger has shown significant differences on crime and punishment policies from the three governors who came before him.

He added the word "rehabilitation" to the name of the state's prison system, and he has quietly allowed the parole of 114 California inmates charged with violent crimes, including 23 people convicted of first-degree murder.

That record stands in stark contrast to former Democratic Gov. Gray Davis, who granted parole to only five inmates in his five years in office and publicly stated he did not believe that murderers deserved a second chance.

Williams' attorneys believe they may have the right governor to plead their case for a clemency based on good works.

"We know Gov. Schwarzenegger believes in rehabilitation," Harris said.

Legal experts who are familiar with Schwarzenegger's two previous decisions on clemency, however, suggest Williams has an uphill battle.

In denying clemency to Beardslee, who confessed to killing two people, and to Kevin Cooper, who killed a family of four after escaping from prison, Schwarzenegger focused extensively on the facts of the crimes and was unimpressed with a religious conversion Cooper experienced in prison, noted David LaBahn, executive director of the California District Attorneys Association.

LaBahn said that Williams' refusal to apologize for the crimes he was convicted of -- Williams maintains his innocence -- could weigh heavily on Schwarzenegger.

"He (Williams) has apologized for the gang lifestyle, but never directly for the crime and to the victims' families," said LaBahn, who has written to Schwarzenegger in opposition to clemency for Williams.

Political experts also suggest clemency for Williams would be a stunner. Noting that 68 percent of Californians supported the death penalty in a March 2004 Field Poll, Mark DiCamillo, director of the poll, suggested that clemency "would be a big political risk for a governor probably not that interested in taking a risk right now."

"He's someone who needs to be moving toward the middle right now, and this is a pretty divisive issue," DiCamillo said.

Schwarzenegger could begin reviewing the case as early as today, and an aide said Andrea Hoch, the governor's new legal affairs secretary, will lead the review.

"This administration takes clemency very seriously," said Rob Stutzman, Schwarzenegger's communications director. "The governor approaches this case with no predisposed notions one way or the other."

Schwarzenegger, who was in China last week, was asked by California reporters there whether he remembered meeting Williams on Venice Beach. The governor noted that "millions of people have said they worked out with me," before going on to say he was preparing to review Williams' case.

"I dread that ... but it's part of the job," he said.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stanley Tookie Williams case
Conviction: Williams, 51, a co-founder of the Crips gang in Los Angeles, was found guilty in 1981 and sentenced to death for murdering a convenience store clerk in Whittier (Los Angeles County) and two motel owners and their daughter during robberies in 1979. Williams says he is innocent. His final appeal, to the U.S. Supreme Court, was denied in October.

Execution date: Dec. 13

What's next: Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger could begin considering clemency for Williams as early as today. An aide said Andrea Hoch, the governor's new legal affairs secretary, will lead the review.
Repay no one evil for evil. . . . never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath . . .

Vengeance is mine, I will repay . . .

Do not say, "I will do to him as he has done to me; I will pay the man back for what he has done."

But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other . . .

See that none of you repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to all.

Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, . . .
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
Repay no one evil for evil. . . . never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath . . .

Vengeance is mine, I will repay . . .

Do not say, "I will do to him as he has done to me; I will pay the man back for what he has done."

But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other . . .

See that none of you repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to all.

Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, . . .


And the church said, "AMEN."
....and Tookie Williams is very far from being any role model for Black people. I was in Los Angeles in 1971, when the Crips began.

......Heck, Black men and women were held up at gun point, shot, stabbed, maimed, and/or killed by members of the Crips, while attending a concert at the Hollywood Bowl, etc...

...held up, shot, stabbed, maimed, and/or killed for having the gall to wear Black leather jackets, shoes, and/or jewelry that they owned.

There won't be any tears shed, and sympathy given, for the likes of any Tookie Williams, and/or any of his associates, who have been responsible for the maiming, and killing of many Black people, many of whom have had nothing to do with any gang faction, and did not infringe upon the rights of Tookie Williams, and/or any of his associates.

Mind you, Tookie Williams is not facing execution for the many Black people he and/or his comrads have maimed or killed over the years, but rather the death of a Caucasian, and Korean family.
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quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Originally posted by Fine:
and...

The non-church members sitting up in the rafters say, Amen-Ra!

Fine


Peace to the sun people kissed by Ra!


*******************

"Lights out convict" by Isome

.........Isome meet a convict, convict meet Isome.

******************
....and Isome, make yourself useful. Enclosed in this link is a site, to where you may wish to seek proof as to whether a Michael Lofton, has any criminal record that sticks......

......A bright future exists for those who play it straight....

......vs. those who don't

...our White Collar criminals......Reverend Sleazy, Our own misfit leaders,

......our white collar criminal lawyers, .......

.....and/or our hard core criminal, in a Tookie Williams or otherwise.
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Top News
Friday, Nov. 25, 2005
Schwarzenegger Mulls Clemency for Williams



SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger said Friday that he would consider granting clemency to Crips co-founder and convicted murderer Stanley Tookie Williams.

After a private hearing with Williams' lawyers at his Sacramento office, Schwarzenegger said he would meet again on Dec. 8 with the lawyers, Los Angeles County prosecutors and others involved.

As governor, he has the authority to commute a death sentence to life without parole. He is not legally obligated to hold a public or private hearing. Schwarzenegger decides clemency requests on a ``case-by-case basis,'' said his spokeswoman, Margita Thompson.

Williams, 51, faces death by lethal injection on Dec. 13 for the 1979 slayings of four people - a Whittier convenience store clerk and three people at a Pico Rivera motel a few days later. He maintains his innocence and has asked the California Supreme Court to reopen his case, alleging shoddy forensics wrongly connected him to three of the murders.

The Supreme Court has not ruled on his petition.

Los Angeles County prosecutors and victims' relatives have demanded his execution.
"Williams, 51, faces death by lethal injection on Dec. 13 for the 1979 slayings of four people - a Whittier convenience store clerk and three people at a Pico Rivera motel a few days later. He maintains his innocence and has asked the California Supreme Court to reopen his case, alleging shoddy forensics wrongly connected him to three of four the murders." from the article

So Tookie admits to being responsible for at least one of the murders. Considering the circumstances, one admitted murder would be enough for Tookie's execution to take place. It is certain though, that Tookie Williams is responsible for multiple murders of many individuals, thus slim chance exists where California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger will excuse Tookie Williams for his actions.
Everything I have read says that he denies having committed any of the murders.

Both Jazzdog (whom I respect) and Michael (who's credibility I find questionable) seem to say that his quilt is not in question. I haven't been able to find anybody but the prosecutors and the victim's families who are so certain he committed those murders. Is there something I've missed??

It seems the only thing he doesn't deny is being the founder/a member of the Crips. Not to say that that's an admirable calling ... but is it really a reason for execution?? Confused

There are far too many innocent people languishing in prison and on death row to believe that he can't be one of them ... at least as far as the crimes for which he was convicted go. Who's to say he's not telling the truth?
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Everything I have read says that he denies having committed any of the murders.

Both Jazzdog (whom I respect) and Michael (who's credibility I find questionable) seem to say that his quilt is not in question. I haven't been able to find anybody but the prosecutors and the victim's families who are so certain he committed those murders. Is there something I've missed??

It seems the only thing he doesn't deny is being the founder/a member of the Crips. Not to say that that's an admirable calling ... but is it really a reason for execution?? Confused

There are far too many innocent people languishing in prison and on death row to believe that he can't be one of them ... at least as far as the crimes for which he was convicted go. Who's to say he's not telling the truth?


"Lights out convict" by Isome

.........Isome meet a convict, convict meet Isome.

***********************

........Isome meet a convict who will more than likely be executed, and the convict to be executed meet Isome.

....more likely there are members on this board whose credibility stinks. Michael Lofton's credibility, good character, etc., is in very good standing....

Indeed, there are innocent men and women on death row, to which the advent of DNA technology has been used as supportive evidence to free the truly innocent, and to convict the truly criminal.

Although innocent men and women have served time, and continue to serve time, Michael Lofton, and/or other Lofton family members, being among the numerous law abiding and truly innocent individuals to have served time for criminal acts not committed, Tookie Williams is very removed from being among the truly innocent!

...and Tookie Williams would not be considered a Geronimo Pratt in any regard...., Geronimo Pratt being among the truly innocent, and also being an honorably discharged highly decorated with honors Vietnam War combat Veteran.....

....and Tookie Williams being as criminal as they come!
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Whatever reason you keep mentioning my screen name in your posts, even when I don't address you or anything you've said, is beyond the pale.

If you don't like being called a convict, which you admit that you are, then you need to cut it out. Do you enjoy constant friction and ill will? If you do, I can help you with that... I will add to my signature line your frequent bitching and moaning about being in jail.

No one knows that you were wrongfully held, you haven't posted any clemency papers or the like. So, as far as we know you're just a former (or current) criminal who can't accept responsibility for what you've done.

You admitted to being incarcerated, so should I reference it in my sig line it will not only be accurate, but it will be helping you since you repeat it every flippin' day for some reason. If that floats your boat, I'm willing to help you.

If not, then stop with the psycho shit by mentioning my screen name every time you post.
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Originally posted by Fine:
?


That wasn't to you... of course! Feel free to chastise me with the off-topic sign. Wink


LOL-absolutely not!

I just knew your content was heated and tbought, Wow someone has set her off.

I find your topics eduational and your comments strong.

Stick to your guns as I do. You are fine in my book!

Fine
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
Whatever reason you keep mentioning my screen name in your posts, even when I don't address you or anything you've said, is beyond the pale.

If you don't like being called a convict, which you admit that you are, then you need to cut it out. Do you enjoy constant friction and ill will? If you do, I can help you with that... I will add to my signature line your frequent bitching and moaning about being in jail.

No one knows that you were wrongfully held, you haven't posted any clemency papers or the like. So, as far as we know you're just a former (or current) criminal who can't accept responsibility for what you've done.

You admitted to being incarcerated, so should I reference it in my sig line it will not only be accurate, but it will be helping you since you repeat it every flippin' day for some reason. If that floats your boat, I'm willing to help you.

If not, then stop with the psycho shit by mentioning my screen name every time you post.


....more on the truly sleazy, as it relates to no good Judge Kevin Ross, another university educated misfit from the Black community!

...below is a link that contains material addressed to me, by at least one member of this message board, material that I had to respond to, rather than remain silent, and let falsehoods stand as being factual.

"Lights out convict" by Isome

.........Isome meet a convict, convict meet Isome.

Well Isome, and/or anyone else of similar erroneous expression, it matters not how many times you reference it because my record is clean, meaning any connection, association, etc., to which you choose to brand me as being a convict, criminal, an Uncle Tom, You are not Black, you belong in a mental institution, etc.,.......

If you didn't want this material coming your direction, you should have used better judgment in first place, because the unwarranted character assassination of another will have repercussions.


.....now back to the topic, the topic being slim chance that any Tookie Williams will escape execution.institution, etc., is meaningless, unsubstantiated, etc.

******************************

Gov. to Consider Clemency for Killer

By Eric Malnic, Times Staff Writer

November 26, 2005

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger will hold a private hearing at his Sacramento office Dec. 8 to consider whether to grant clemency to convicted murderer Stanley Tookie Williams, co-founder of the Crips street gang.

Margita Thompson, the governor's press secretary, said Schwarzenegger's decision to hold the private meeting with lawyers representing Williams and the families of his victims did not indicate which way he was leaning on whether to commute Williams' sentence from death to life in prison without possibility of parole.

"The governor reviewed the material in the case this week," Thompson said late Friday. "He decided the best route is a private clemency hearing, so he can hear directly from counsel."

Prosecutors are urging that Williams be executed by lethal injection as scheduled on Dec. 13 for the killings of four people during robberies in 1979. Williams' lawyers say he should be granted clemency because of his work as an anti-gang activist during his incarceration on death row.

Last weekend, a peaceful multiracial crowd including religious leaders and rapper Snoop Dogg jammed a street outside San Quentin Prison to urge that Williams' life be spared. His lawyers have also submitted what they said were signatures of 32,000 people supporting Williams' petition for clemency.

Williams, 51, has denied he committed the murders and has asked the California Supreme Court to reopen his case, contending that he was wrongly tied to the crimes through shoddy forensics. The court has not ruled on his petition.

The governor decides clemency requests on a case-by-case basis and is not required to hold either public or private hearings on an inmate's request, Thompson said.

She said that after thorough study of the materials presented to him, the governor rejected the only two previous requests he had received from death row inmates seeking clemency.

Last year, Schwarzenegger denied a hearing of any kind for convicted murderer Kevin Cooper. But Cooper's execution was later stayed by a federal appeals court.

In January, the governor referred the clemency request of murderer Donald Beardslee to the California Board of Parole Hearings and decided against clemency on the recommendation of the board.

Thompson said that under state law, Beardslee's case had to be referred to a public hearing by the board because Beardslee had been convicted of felonies twice previously.

Williams had been convicted of a felony once previously, so the governor had the option of a private hearing, a public hearing or no hearing at all, Thompson said. She said he decided that a private hearing was most appropriate.

On Wednesday, Williams' attorneys asked the state Supreme Court to grant them access to a broad array of trial evidence in an effort to show that Williams' conviction in the four murders had been unconstitutional.

"Discovery must be granted to avoid an egregious miscarriage of justice," Pasadena attorney Verna Wafeld wrote in her request.

She is seeking information under a 2003 California law enacted in the aftermath of the Los Angeles Police Department's Rampart corruption scandal. She said she was looking for ballistic and crime scene evidence, witness records and medical evidence that might show that Williams was forcibly drugged while in jail awaiting trial.

In response to an earlier defense motion, Deputy Atty. Gen. Lisa J. Brault said Williams had been provided with appropriate material through the court discovery process.

Prosecutors are required to turn over anything that might help a defendant prove his innocence.

Copyright 2005 Los Angeles Times

***************************

"His lawyers have also submitted what they said were signatures of 32,000 people supporting Williams' petition for clemency."

......meaning an overwhelming majority of the people of the State of California, the City of Los Angeles, the County of Los Angeles, South Central Los Angeles, are against clemency for Tookie Williams. The support of 32,000 people, out of millions, is not a sign of strong support from the actual residents of the State of California, a reality that would also play a strong factor in Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's decision of granting or not granting clemency to Tookie Williams.

"As of the census of 2000, there are 9,519,338 people, 3,133,774 households, and 2,137,233 families residing in the county. The population density is 905/km² (2,344/mi²). There are 3,270,909 housing units at an average density of 311/km² (806/mi²). The racial makeup of the county is 48.71% White (31.1% is non-Hispanic White), 9.78% African American, 0.81% Native American, 11.95% Asian, 0.28% Pacific Islander, 23.53% from other races, and 4.94% from two or more races. 44.56% of the total population is of Hispanic or Latino origin, regardless of race.

Los Angeles is one of the few counties in the USA where Latinos are a plurality, and will soon be a majority."


*********************
Jackson enters ˜Tookie' Williams' debate
Staff and Wire Reports
LOS ANGELES "” The Rev. Jesse Jackson is the latest public figure to urge Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger to spare the life of death row inmate Stanley "Tookie" Williams.

Jackson met with Williams "” a co-founder of the notorious Los Angeles Crips street gang who is due to be executed on Dec. 13 "” in his San Quentin jail cell Monday.

Williams, who was found guilty of murdering four people in two separate robberies in 1979, has become a cause célèbre after renouncing his violent past and penning a series of books aimed at dissuading youth from gang and drug culture. His work and message of redemption have led to multiple nominations for the Nobel Peace Prize.

"Today I met with Tookie Williams, a man who is scheduled to be killed 17 days from today," said Jackson in a statement following the meeting. "We had a prayer. At the conclusion of our one-and-a-half-hour visit I told him ˜we are going to fight for you and we are going to win.'"

Jackson said he has requested a meeting with Schwarzenegger, and will "urge him to grant clemency and commute Tookie Williams' sentence to life in prison without the possibility of parole."

"In the days to come we will bear witness to our criminal justice system at its lowest point," Jackson said. "We must kill the idea of killing as a remedy to societal problems and shortcomings. We do not condone ... Williams' past actions. However, the streets of California will be no safer on Dec. 14 should he be executed. In fact, there is reason to believe that they will be even less safe as those he would have reached in his ongoing efforts to stop children from joining gang life will never hear his message."


*********************

Even if limited to 11% of the total Black population of Los Angeles alone, the showing of support for clemency by even the Black community is extremely low. Mind you, ambulance chasing sleazy no good Reverend Jesse Jackson, the misguided members of the entertainment community, and/or others who are not residents of the State of California would have very little influence on Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's decision, and/or authority to govern. It is certain, that be it the Governnor or the People of the State of California, outsiders will have little influence over how best to govern, or set policy within the State of California, and the words of misguided wisdom to infer that Tookie Williams is behind bars because he is innocent, from any outsider, will have little influence over Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, California law abiding residents, and/or law abiding California residents victimized by the criminal actions of Tookie Williams, the Crips, the Bloods, MS13, etc., etc.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

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Watts is now a safer place for all to live. The Gang community will not take precedence over law abiding People of the State of California.

Lawmakers give thanks for Watts renewal

LOS ANGELES "” The City Council paid tribute Tuesday to the multi-agency task force which turned life around for residents in a crime-infested, gang-controlled triangular patch of Watts.

Councilwoman Janice Hahn led the council's salute to the City Attorney's Office, Police Department and the Department of Building and Safety for their four-year battle to restore livable conditions to the five-block area bounded by Lou Dillon and 110th streets and Santa Ana Boulevard.

In what was called the Lou Dillon Project, the agencies took on the lawless neighborhood in August 2001. At that time, it was a haven for drug dealers and gang members and very young children were seen running through the streets at all hours.

"It was a challenging location for police to work," said Kevin Gilligan, assistant supervising deputy city attorney, who oversaw the project. Gang members reportedly threw rocks and other projectiles at police who entered the area. "It has an L-shaped intersection and they could sit in the intersection and see everybody coming in."

For their own safety, officers did not patrol the area in single cars, and the triangle generated the greatest number of "officer needs help" calls in the LAPD's South Bureau.

Fearing the crime that surrounded them, residents fled the Lou Dillon triangle in droves and by the time the city took action, more than 60 percent of the properties there were vacant.

"The gang members completely destroyed the vacant houses," Gilligan said. "They not only covered them with graffiti, they removed all the fixtures, including the plumbing and electrical works."

Following several months of planning, the city launched a sunrise sweep and took control of the neighborhood in one day in mid-August 2001. The LAPD and their undercover narcotics officers, working with City Attorney Rocky Delgadillo's Nuisance Abatement and Neighborhood Prosecutor programs and building and safety officials, served search warrants at 5 a.m., followed two hours later with parole and probation checks and an hour after that, flooded the area with city services.

"We kept the operation so secretive, that we didn't even tell the city services where they were going," Gilligan said. City service providers spent the rest of the day conducting building and safety inspections, cleaning lots, removing graffiti, cleaning streets and street signs.

Building and Safety officials secured all the vacant houses and hearings were held with the owners as to the disposition of their abandoned property.

As was noted at Tuesday's council tribute, law and order has been fully restored to the Lou Dillon triangle and the residents have returned. The vacant lots have been purchased by new owners.

Three new homes have been built on those vacant lots and two more are under construction. A total of 21 properties have been rehabilitated, two have been demolished and one is slated to be razed.

Police officials said violent crime in the area has dropped 37.5 percent. "But we feel that is an under-representation of the level of crime that occurred in that area," Gilligan said. "We heard that a large number of crimes went unreported four years ago because the residents were too afraid to tell," he added.

"This is a great success story of city employees working together to return a neighborhood to the people that live there," said Councilwoman Hahn, who represents the area. "Today, thanks to the dedication of our Deputy City Attorney Kevin Gilligan, our Building and Safety inspectors and our LAPD Southeast Division officers, it is a new neighborhood." by Betty Pleasant, Contributing Editor, The Los Angeles Wave, November 24, 2005.

***************************

Legal Tool of Law Enforcement to Curb Gang Violence, is serious business, and this Bill is certain to be passed by Congress!

Although the Democratic Party may be against this they forget the people rule, and one of the primary functions of sworn in and mandated by law duties of all elected officials is to serve the people, especially as it relates to law abiding individuals, and/or not the criminal!

It is certain, that be it the Governor or the People of the State of California, outsiders will have little influence over how best to govern, or set policy within the State of California, and the words of misguided wisdom to infer that Tookie Williams is behind bars because he is innocent, from any outsider, will have little influence over Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, California law abiding residents, and/or law abiding California residents victimized by the criminal actions of Tookie Williams, the Crips, the Bloods, MS13, etc., etc.
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quote:
wow babylon takes back a neighbourhood from the gangs.
Damn those cops always picking on the gangs!

imagine those corrupt cops actually caring about protecting citizens from gangs.

Wow sure wish Tookie was out on the street- NOT!!


Blacksanction,

....and the sad thing is that it has taken the demographic shift of a formerly predominately Black community, as it relates to South Central Los Angeles, and Compton, to a now predominately Hispanic community for any major change to take place.

During the period that these areas were predominately Black, in addition to gang violence that made these areas very unsafe, and drove the law abiding away, many of the so called Black elected leaders of Compton, and South Central Los Angeles, have been too busy stealing, playing games, misusing their position of influence, and some of them have been criminally indicted and are now convicted felons. In addition, the so-called Black middleclass have kept these misfits in elected office. By and large, the largest voting block in Compton and South Central Los Angeles have been Black people. Although Hispanics outnumber Black people, many are not yet citizens, and the majority of Hispanics in Compton, and South Central Los Angeles do not have the right to vote, which has made it possible for the unintelligent voters from the Black community to promote misfits to the position of elected representative.

It has taken demographic changes for reform to take place, to which Compton and South Central Los Angeles, are now safer than either of these two communities have been for well over twenty years. Businesses that left this area after the riot of 1965, and 1992, are now returning more so than ever. It is a given, that money and business development know no color line, in that businesses thrive best when the environment is conducive to the growth and expansion of the business. A lawless, high crime area, would drive business insurance costs through the roof, to which the only remaining businesses would be liquor stores, money laundering businesses, drug dealing businesses, fencing of stolen property rings, car jacking rings, mortuary businesses, barber shops, no good preachers using the Church as a means of bleeding the Black community of assets, auto chop shops, swap meets selling counterfeit merchandise, Nix Check cashing, corrupt Ugly Duckling Auto Sales, and/or other least desirable businesses.
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Gee, Michael ...

I was going to ask you how it felt to actually have to post something good about the Black community. I mean, I would have thought that it would have been physically painful to you in some way.

But now I see that you only posted it because it is concerning a community that is predominantly Hispanic!! Eek Eek

I should have known it was too good to be true. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Gee, Michael ...

I was going to ask you how it felt to actually have to post something good about the Black community. I mean, I would have thought that it would have been physically painful to you in some way.

But now I see that you only posted it because it is concerning a community that is predominantly Hispanic!! Eek Eek

I should have known it was too good to be true. Roll Eyes


Can't see it any other way. The truth is what has driven many law abiding Black people away. Heck, I had a co-worker who lived in the heart of Watts, who stated that while at work, his own Black neighbors stole his furniture, appliances, stereo equipment, etc., etc. After multiple incidents of losing his valuable property, due to the wrong and criminal acts perpetrated by other Black people, he stated he could not take it any more. Finally, he, his wife, and kids, left South Central Los Angeles for good, never to return. South Central Los Angeles was no longer profitable, and it was of little benefit for him to remain, remain only to have his property stolen, while at work earning an honest living. Can't say anything good about this myself, because there is nothing that can be said that is good about this activity. This destructive and criminal activity has virtually destroyed the relationship between those who respect the law, and those who don't. This wrongful and criminal activity by other Black people, more so than anything else, has driven South Central Los Angeles, and Compton into poverty. The people who hold assets, would not be willing to relocate to such a community. This pretty much sums it up, as to why South Central Los Angeles and Compton have hit rock bottom or have been at rock bottom for well over twenty years. At least no one with any sense is going to remain in any community to which their belongings are stolen while they are at work earning an honest living, away from home, and/or they face being burglarized while at home, day in and day out.

Heck, so much criminal activity took place in Compton and South Central Los Angeles that it stretched the resources of the LAPD, and the LA County Sheriffs thin. The policing authorities choose to protect other areas rather than waste valuable resources, and risk their lives, in a truly lawless community such as formerly predominately Black South Central Los Angeles and/or Compton, California.

I shouldn't have to bring proof, as to who predominated this area during the high crime stage, because it has been published by many reputable sources. Furthermore, the people who have lived there, or who continue to live there today, see the demographic shifts daily, which means it is not just me saying so.

Black people, sorry to say, just FFFF----uupppp.

....and Black on Black crime is not limited to Black Los Angeles!

Heck, during my childhood, I used to live in the heart of Watts with my immediate family, to which a sea of Black people lived in the community. My parents chose to move all of our family away from this area, rather than be destroyed by the low regard for life, property, and/or both that commonly occurs within the inner-city when predominated by Black folks. This and other realities being said, and documented on more than one occasion, by many individuals, other than just myself, make Black on Black criminal activity very real. I thank my parents to this day for this, because slim chance exists where any of my family members would be alive today had we remained in Compton, and South Central Los Angeles. Heck, many of my childhood classmates, the adopted son of the foster parent that I lived with during the time that disgraceful Black people were playing musical chairs with my immediate family members for illicitly gained profit, from 1966 to 1969, these individuals no longer remain in the land of the living, meaning they were killed, because of the level of Black on Black criminal activity that is indeed, very real.
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quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Gee, Michael ...


It'll never happen ER.


Beginning in the 1970s, the precipitous decline of the area's manufacturing base resulted in widespread poverty and crime. Street gangs, such as the Crips and Bloods, rose to great notoriety at this time, becoming even more powerful with the arrival of crack cocaine (trade in which became dominated by gangs) in the 1980s. The area suffered even further as downtown Los Angeles' service sector, which had long been dominated by unionized African-Americans earning relatively high wages, replaced most of these black workers with newly arrived Central American immigrants. By the time of the 1992 Los Angeles riots, which began in South Central and spread throughout the city, South Central had become a byword for urban decay, its bad reputation spread by movies such as South Central, Menace II Society, Friday, and South Central native John Singleton's Boyz N the Hood.

Since the 1992 riots, much of South Central's black working class has moved to the Antelope Valley and Inland Empire areas far to the north and east (respectively) of Los Angeles; departing black homeowners have been replaced by a massive influx of Latinos. Today, South Los Angeles is far from being an "all-black" neighborhood. Many areas in South Los Angeles, including Watts, are now 70% Latino. Communities that used to be heavily populated by blacks have now become ethnically mixed places with Latinos dominating the population. Now, very few communities in South Los Angeles are over three-quarters African American, with most black residents now found in the region's middle-class western districts. The rapid influx of Mexican (legal and illegal) immigrants into formerly all-black areas has caused conflicts among the different ethnic groups. In some parts of South Los Angeles, there have been hate crimes commited by both ethnic groups against each other because of conflicts over housing and employment competition. However, considerable efforts have been made to form a Latino-black alliance in the inner city communities; a watershed event came when the majority of black South Los Angeles residents voted for Antonio Villaraigosa in the 2005 Los Angeles mayoral election."


.....nothing like factual evidence to quash misinformation from anyone who implies, or makes any attempt to infer that none of this happened.
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