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quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:
Then you create a scenario:

Originally posted by Empty Purnata:Do you get the feeling that if Stanley "Tookie" Williams was White, and the majority of members at African-America Forums were FOR his death, that Black Neocons would be suddenly against the Death Penalty for him?

E.P., your scenario, shows your bias against people who do not think like you do. Your scenario has no credibility.


You haven't shown that I was wrong. All you did was post the story and then say that I was wrong to say that if he were White that Neocons would want him free.

I gave you examples of how Neocons let White criminals off the hook such as Kenny Lay, Karl Rove. Some people on the Religious Right also wanted to release another cold-blooded killer: Carla Faye Tucker. Just like Tookie Williams, she murdered someone in cold blood, then turned her life around in prison. The Christian Right wanted her set free because of her religious conversion, but George Bush had her executed anyway. Tookie Williams has also killed in cold blood (unlike Tucker, his murder was spontaneous and not a murder like Tucker's) and he turned his life around in prison. Yet no Religious Right loonies are gathering to his defsense.

That's a perfect example that proves my case.

Also, are you a Neocon? You seem to be getting awful upset about my use of the term. Most Conservatives who aren't Neocons don't really get offended by the term because they consider Neocons to be a "different breed".

Bias? Come on, like you don't show bias? Even "Moderates" are biased to their own neutral position, or they usually slant a little to the Left or to the Right. EVERYONE is biased, don't ever let anyone tell you different.
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:

E.P., your scenario, shows your bias against people who do not think like you do. Your scenario has no credibility.


That's not true, no matter how many times you you say it!

Based just on the posts in this forum, what the white neo-cons favor so, too, do the black-faced neo-cons. E.P.'s generalization was reasonable.

It has nothing to do with bias and everything to do with observation.


Thank you! Wink

I have never seen a Black Neoconservative disagree with a White Neoconservative on anything. When Black Neocons DO dissent with their White overlords, it is because they believe their White counterparts are being "too lenient" (ie, not extreme enough).

Have you ever seen that movie "Life" with Eddie Murphy and Martin Lawrence sentenced to a chain gang prison for life? Black Neocons often remind me of that Black prison guard in the movie that would beat up on the inmates verbally and psychologically more than his White prison guard overlord.


I think I hit a sore spot with Jeff because I said "Neocon". I think he responded prematurely and didn't realize I was referring to Neocons and not reasonable Black Conservatives like Colin Powell and Denzel Washington.
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:

E.P., your scenario, shows your bias against people who do not think like you do. Your scenario has no credibility.


That's not true, no matter how many times you you say it!

Based just on the posts in this forum, what the white neo-cons favor so, too, do the black-faced neo-cons. E.P.'s generalization was reasonable.

It has nothing to do with bias and everything to do with observation.


Have you observed anything like the scenario E.P. mentioned?
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:

Have you observed anything like the scenario E.P. mentioned?


I have observed that: "what the white neo-cons favor so, too, do the black-faced neo-cons." without question! They unthinkingly condone war, imperialism, torture, Black self-denigration, anti-labor policies, etc., just as white neo-cons do. They will argue their position using predictable rhetoric that can be found on any far rightwing rabid website, reference it as a source and become ever so mum when presented with hard facts to the contrary.
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:
Then you create a scenario:

Originally posted by Empty Purnata:Do you get the feeling that if Stanley "Tookie" Williams was White, and the majority of members at African-America Forums were FOR his death, that Black Neocons would be suddenly against the Death Penalty for him?

E.P., your scenario, shows your bias against people who do not think like you do. Your scenario has no credibility.


You haven't shown that I was wrong. All you did was post the story and then say that I was wrong to say that if he were White that Neocons would want him free.

I gave you examples of how Neocons let White criminals off the hook such as Kenny Lay, Karl Rove. Some people on the Religious Right also wanted to release another cold-blooded killer: Carla Faye Tucker. Just like Tookie Williams, she murdered someone in cold blood, then turned her life around in prison. The Christian Right wanted her set free because of her religious conversion, but George Bush had her executed anyway. Tookie Williams has also killed in cold blood (unlike Tucker, his murder was spontaneous and not a murder like Tucker's) and he turned his life around in prison. Yet no Religious Right loonies are gathering to his defsense.

That's a perfect example that proves my case.

Oh did Mr Williams claim that he was a changed man because of his religious (christian convictions)?

Also, are you a Neocon? Black ConservativeYou seem to be getting awful upset about my use of the term. Not upset at all E.P. Most Conservatives who aren't Neocons don't really get offended by the term because they consider Neocons to be a "different breed".

Bias? Come on, like you don't show bias? Even "Moderates" are biased to their own neutral position, or they usually slant a little to the Left or to the Right. EVERYONE is biased, don't ever let anyone tell you different.
True

Show me where you are right in your depiction, sir.
Did he claim to be a changed Christian man? Who cares whether or not he was a Christian? He was still a new man, he even wrote children's books discouraging violence.


BTW, I specifically said "Black Neocon", I don't consider all Black Conservatives, or even Conservatives in general, to be Neocons. Neocon is a very specific group, even more specific than non-Neocon Conservatives.

However, Neocons are the fastest growing ideological group in America and are quickly gaining political power and social sway.
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Did he claim to be a changed Christian man?


Being obtuse is a trait of the neo-con. Perhaps that is what actually you are. You're not going to find an exact parallel. A mere cursory look around this very forum proves E.P. right in his assertion.


Well, Jeff did say he was a "Conservative with Libertarian leanings".

That sounds somewhat similar to many Neocons. Well, Neocons are corporate Libertarians, they are governmental fascists who claim to be "minimalists" because they want government out of business, but have no problem with using govenrment to outlaw sexual freedom and women's reproductive rights if they are personally offended.

That's what a Neocon is. It's up to Jeff to figure whether or not that sounds like him.
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
That's what a Neocon is. It's up to Jeff to figure whether or not that sounds like him.


It doesn't really matter what he calls himself. Once someone shows you what they are, believe them. Wink

You were right and any supercilious questions now about alleging selectivity of rightwing pseudo-Christians are irrelevant.
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Did he claim to be a changed Christian man?


Being obtuse is a trait of the neo-con. Perhaps that is what actually you are. You're not going to find an exact parallel. A mere cursory look around this very forum proves E.P. right in his assertion.


Well, Jeff did say he was a "Conservative with Libertarian leanings".

That sounds somewhat similar to many Neocons. Well, Neocons are corporate Libertarians, they are governmental fascists who claim to be "minimalists" because they want government out of business, but have no problem with using govenrment to outlaw sexual freedom and women's reproductive rights if they are personally offended.

That's what a Neocon is. It's up to Jeff to figure whether or not that sounds like him.


Awwdamn, Isome, you might have me pegged.
Outlawing sexual freedom? Not sure what you mean by that......Between two consenting responsible adults. Ok.

Isome, there was a time that I had no problem with a woman having the final decision with what she will do with her body.....and then Partial Birth Abortion became an issue some years back.....turned me off....had to rethink the abortion issue altogether.
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:

Isome, there was a time that I had no problem with a woman having the final decision with what she will do with her body.....and then Partial Birth Abortion became an issue some years back.....turned me off....had to rethink the abortion issue altogether.


I don't know how this became a discussion on abortion rights (b/c I sure as hell didn't bring that shit up), but you have just PROVEN yourself a black-faced, unthinking, willfully ignorant neo-con!!

There is no such thing in the medical profession as "partial birth abortion." That was a term a linguistics guy, who works for the neo-cons, found would be the most disturbing to an unthinking public. (I'll find his name and post it later, but you have certainly revealed your true self.)

:: This is the deal ::

Late-term abortions, which the neo-cons renamed "partial birth abortions" are so fucking rare it shouldn't be an issue. There are only done in a hospital and only when the mother's life is in danger. There are some women who would die rather than save themselves, but there are others who want the chance to live. A women's health facility --which dispenses birth control pills, sponges, diaphrams, etc., performs pap smears and sometimes provides abortion services-- lacks the necessary life-saving equipment to handle a patient who would need such a procedure, which pre-emptively quells any argument that they are performed in the low-cost clinics incessantly targeted by the hypocritically violent and anti-women's rights pro-life crowd.

I am in awe of women who give their lives so their child can be born, and I am equally in awe of the women who fight to save their own. If a mother's life is in jeopardy by the impending birth of a child and her options are to bare her child, yet leave her other three motherless, she should not be denied her choice to live.

Amazing that some very vocal and ignorant people wax judgemental about the subject using a term made-up by anti-women's rights fanatics! In fact, the fool who made up the name (I must find it) is a rank opportunist who probably has no feeling about the issue one way or the other, but he knows how to push the buttons of sheeple.

You fell for that smegma, hook line and sinker and showed yourself for the neo-con that you are.

:: On Edit ::
    Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary lists 30 definitions of various abortions, yet no definition of partial birth abortion.

    The term "therapeutic abortion" appears in both and is defined as an "abortion induced to save the life or health (physical or mental) of a pregnant woman; sometimes performed after rape or incest." Notice how this definition focuses on women's health?

    If these senators care about an unborn child's endangered life, then they must specify how they intend to protect the living mother's health.

    The procedure targeted in the bill could save the life of a mother or prevent serious complications and injury, including paralysis, which is why former president Bill Clinton twice vetoed similar bills.
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MBM in the ideal society you are correct.

Unfortunately it depends on what you believe the purpose of law is for, the protection of the citizen or for the criminal? I subscibe to the idea that the original law had been for the protection of the citizen, but lawyers got involved and now it protects the criminals from accountablity and punishment (yes this is an over simplification-as this does not address issue of the wrongfully convicted).

The Williams case will be decided by the people who are the loudest-not the most correct(on either side of the issue) to get the ear of Swarzenegger- politics politics politics.

Off topic- We could talk about native justice healing circles.
Well, it has been proven that the death penalthy is not a deterrant to crime/murder. It is also true that with all of the various appeals etc. that the DP requires - it is actually more expensive to put someone to death than to keep them in prison for life. Further, society is protected equally whether the person is behind bars "forever" or they are put to death. That said, I'm not sure what benefit the death penalty provides to society.
I guess I just have not evolved enough to give up on vengeance and I am not sure I will reach that spot.

If it were a matter that the person was going to be buried in a secure max facility and would never ever have human contact again (barring medical emergency) I might reconsider my blood thirsty ways.

There are many criminals who still control their gangs while inside the prison. Prisons are not as secure as people are lead to believe, guards are not all honest or smart and hence escapes happen and organized crime and drugs florish in prison system.

Besides myself who here has had dealings with persons who were lifers or long term institutionalized? (If this is off topic please let me know)
...Blacksanction,

California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger appoints individuals who defend, protect, and/or promote the cause for victims rights, and not the rights of criminals.....

"Governor Schwarzenegger Appoints Two Members of the Board of Prison Terms

Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger today announced the appointment of Margarita Perez as chairwoman of the Board of Prison Terms and Susan Fisher as a member of the board.

"Margarita and Susan bring a wealth of experience and knowledge of law enforcement and parole in California," said Governor Schwarzenegger. "I thank them for their willingness to serve the people of California."

Perez has 15 years of experience in Board of Prison Terms law enforcement. Since 2001 she has served as a senior investigator and parole agent in the investigations division. Perez served from 1996 to 2001 as a parole agent at the California Department of Corrections. She began her career in law enforcement as a correctional officer first at Avenal State Prison and later as a correctional sergeant at Folsom State prison. Perez is a former captain with the California Army National Guard. She served on active duty during Operation Desert Storm and volunteered for active duty following the terrorist attacks of September 11th.

Perez, 41, is a Democrat from Cameron Park, CA. She is a graduate of the University of New York with a Bachelor of Science in general business. This position requires Senate confirmation and the statutory compensation is $103,317.

Fisher has more than a decade of experience working on behalf of crime victims. Since 1999 she has been the director of the Doris Tate Crime Victims Bureau. She served as a member of the board of directors of the Doris Tate Crime Victims Bureau for seven years. She has also been a member of several community crime victims' organizations including the Institute for Crime and Trauma Survivors, the San Diego County chapter of Parents of Murdered Children and since 2000 as president of Citizens for Law and Order.

Fisher, 50, is a Republican from Oceanside, CA. She is a graduate of the Pacific College of Nursing. This position requires Senate confirmation and the statutory compensation is $99,693.

The Board of Prison Terms considers parole release and establishes the length and conditions of parole for all persons sentenced to the Department of Corrections under the indeterminate sentencing law and for persons sentenced to prison for a term of less than life and those serving a sentence of life without the possibility of parole."

**************************************
.......meaning slim chance exists where, or even if, California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger will support Tookie Williams in his quest for clemency, at the expense of the heirs of the victims of the individuals killed by Tookie Williams and/or his criminal associates.

The heirs of the victims killed by Tookie Williams, and his partners in criminal activity, have made it very clear that nothing short of execution should take place to bring closure to this set of circumstances.
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quote:
Originally posted by Fine:
A very keen political move by Arnold to take the pressure off himself. And, yes it would appear that support to even keep "Tookie" imprisoned but alive is nil...

Fine


...some of the functions of elected officials within California, none of which are suited to protect criminals or criminal activity at the expense of the law abiding.

....not really. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is doing his job as an elected official, namely serving the interest of law abiding citizens, to be safe in their possessions, personal effects, etc., against the unlawful criminal acts of other than law abiding citizens and/or otherwise.

An elected official's primary function is to serve the people, namely law abiding citizens. Since Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is an elected official, he is carrying out his mandated by law, and sworn under oath, duty to protect the rights of the law abiding, first and foremost, and not the rights of known criminals.

**********************

From Arnold Himself....

"Arnold Schwarzenegger Sworn-in As The 38th Governor of California

On the morning of Monday, November 17th, Arnold Schwarzenegger was sworn-in as the 38th Governor of California on the west steps of the State Capitol. Over 7,000 people witnessed the ceremony and millions more in the state and around the world watched the event on television.

Governor Schwarzenegger pledged to make the business of his Administration the concerns of the people. While the state faces many challenges, the Governor is confident that by working together we will achieve meaningful reform.

Restoring California's economic engine is Governor Schwarzenegger's top priority. He is also committed to reforming the education system and balancing the state's budget.

This ambitious and aggressive agenda requires a hard working and dedicated team. Governor Schwarzenegger's Administration includes many experienced individuals representing a depth of expertise and a broad range of views.

Governor Schwarzenegger is honored to serve the people of California, and he is proud to lead the state that welcomed him as an immigrant more than three decades ago. Governor Schwarzenegger is committed to providing every Californian the same chance he was given to achieve the American Dream."


********************

"......But Lora Owens, the stepmother of Albert Owens, said the execution should go forward. She said Williams has not accepted responsibility for his murders and has done nothing to redeem himself.

"To be redeemed means to accept responsibility or assume responsibility and not use it as a means of getting out of just punishment," Owens said.

"He chose to be judge, jury and executioner in a matter of seconds, and yet it has taken years for him to come to justice," she said.

Asked whether she was convinced that Williams murdered her stepson, Owens said: "From the facts given to me, I have no doubts." Then she added, "I was not the one who convicted him; I am not the one who sentenced him; I am trying to keep the memory of Albert alive because he is the one who was done wrong."

Owens was working at the 7-Eleven store, which Williams and three others robbed of $120, according to court records."

Attachments

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quote:
Originally posted by Michael:
quote:
Originally posted by Fine:
A very keen political move by Arnold to take the pressure off himself. And, yes it would appear that support to even keep "Tookie" imprisoned but alive is nil...

Fine


...some of the functions of elected officials within California, none of which are suited to protect criminals or criminal activity at the expense of the law abiding.

....not really. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is doing his job as an elected official, namely serving the interest of law abiding citizens, to be safe in their possessions, personal effects, etc., against the unlawful criminal acts of other than law abiding citizens and/or otherwise.

An elected official's primary function is to serve the people, namely law abiding citizens. Since Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is an elected official, he is carrying out his mandated by law, and sworn under oath, duty to protect the rights of the law abiding, first and foremost, and not the rights of known criminals.

**********************

From Arnold Himself....

"Arnold Schwarzenegger Sworn-in As The 38th Governor of California

On the morning of Monday, November 17th, Arnold Schwarzenegger was sworn-in as the 38th Governor of California on the west steps of the State Capitol. Over 7,000 people witnessed the ceremony and millions more in the state and around the world watched the event on television.

Governor Schwarzenegger pledged to make the business of his Administration the concerns of the people. While the state faces many challenges, the Governor is confident that by working together we will achieve meaningful reform.

Restoring California's economic engine is Governor Schwarzenegger's top priority. He is also committed to reforming the education system and balancing the state's budget.

This ambitious and aggressive agenda requires a hard working and dedicated team. Governor Schwarzenegger's Administration includes many experienced individuals representing a depth of expertise and a broad range of views.

Governor Schwarzenegger is honored to serve the people of California, and he is proud to lead the state that welcomed him as an immigrant more than three decades ago. Governor Schwarzenegger is committed to providing every Californian the same chance he was given to achieve the American Dream."


********************

"......But Lora Owens, the stepmother of Albert Owens, said the execution should go forward. She said Williams has not accepted responsibility for his murders and has done nothing to redeem himself.

"To be redeemed means to accept responsibility or assume responsibility and not use it as a means of getting out of just punishment," Owens said.

"He chose to be judge, jury and executioner in a matter of seconds, and yet it has taken years for him to come to justice," she said.

Asked whether she was convinced that Williams murdered her stepson, Owens said: "From the facts given to me, I have no doubts." Then she added, "I was not the one who convicted him; I am not the one who sentenced him; I am trying to keep the memory of Albert alive because he is the one who was done wrong."

Owens was working at the 7-Eleven store, which Williams and three others robbed of $120, according to court records."


Yes..after 'closer' examination I see the release date -- 2/26/2004 -- I now see the strategy is not brand 'new.'

Fine
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksanction:
MBM in the ideal society you are correct.

Unfortunately it depends on what you believe the purpose of law is for, the protection of the citizen or for the criminal? I subscibe to the idea that the original law had been for the protection of the citizen, but lawyers got involved and now it protects the criminals from accountablity and punishment ....


Oy vay! Kill all the lawyers! No one needs a lawyer.
The bottom line:


The DP merely feeds the human need for blood-lust and vengeance. But on the other hand, it silences the voice of a man that MAY be able to reach, and turn around, those headed down the path he plowed.


*I guess many have not evolved as such....i always thought the hickville thinking of backwoods racist white men...who they are colonized to asprie upwards to......wow.....supremacy at its finest....
quote:
Fry his butt.

Put STanley Williams to death now! by Shadow

"We're also finding more and more dope lawyers defending these gangsters in criminal proceedings, I often wonder how a 18 year unemployed Crip can afford a $500 per hour Ivy League attorney. Some of these dope lawyers operate under the guise of wanting to give the poor black inner city youth the best defense possible and claim to be working "pro bono" (for free), more than once they've been found with large sums of un taxable cash in backpacks or duffel bags. These attorneys risk falling victim to the short fuse and violent tendencies of these gangsters, which offers an added motivation to make sure their client is acquitted. Rival gangs, or even disgruntled fellow gangsters have more than once ambushed a dope lawyer and stolen his cash reward."

........and with enough money any Crip, Blood, MS13, otherwise gang set, no good Reverend Jesse Jackson, other no good poverty pimps, and/or our own no good Black elected officials, can hire any number of unethical atttorneys who choose to use their lawful license to practice law to promote the freedom of individuals who have defrauded, stolen from, killed, maimed, and/or robbed the innocent, many of the innocent being other Black people!


Indeed, the mindset of an Isome, Kevin41, the liberal community, those in our community who promote criminals, and misfits, over the law abiding, etc., etc., will not stop Tookie Williams, and/or those who choose to be so criminal from being executed.

Mind you, the many individuals not even mentioned killed by Tookie Williams, the Crips, and/or the Bloods, have been and continue to be other Black people, yet it seems there are individuals in our community who choose to decriminalize or excuse the perpetrators for their very genocidal, and destructive life style.
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yeah....expect the sorry azz house negroes to keep the white man's dick in their mouths and suck hard everytime there is an issue regarding black people...their self-subordination to whites does reek of sexual or parental deference to them....in other words.....black men are not punk azz weaklings with no leadership qualities whatsoever.....these negroes(or sick inbred whites playing games) worship whites whenever or however they can......when a topic comes up.....before I read their post I ask myself, "what would a white boy with klan orientation think?"....and I know what to expect from the CF and Lofton types.....hell when a black person finds themselves agreeing with white separatists on how they view black issues........then a self-examination is in order......and if they do not realize as much....there is nothing I can do for them........
I am sorry everybody (but I am from L.A.) and Stanley Williams deserves to be hanged in public.

I beleive in the death penalty, just not in America...

America has an issue with race and class..

But all other things being equal I beleive in the death penalty..

Does it deter criminals, probably not...

But in 1981 this man brutally murdered an innocnet clerk at a liquor store and then an entire family (father, mother & daughter) all within 72 hours.

Now unless some of you are saying he did not do it....

He deserves to hang until he dies...

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