Skip to main content

Stanley "Tookie" Williams, the founder of the Crips gang who is scheduled to be executed next month, is getting some support from the Oscar-winning actor who portrayed him in a 2004 television movie.

Jamie Foxx, who turns 38 on Williams' execution date (Dec. 13), wants California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to grant clemency for the convicted murderer-turned-author.

A Web site has been created to collect signatures in hopes of convincing Schwarzenegger to spare Tookie's life.

"We can't let [the execution] happen," Foxx told Fox 411 columnist Roger Freidman at the New York premiere of his new movie, "Jarhead." "We've got to do everything we can to get the word out. Do you know they've collected nearly 30,000 signatures so far?"

Williams, who is the author of nine children's books that promote peace, was sentenced to death in 1981 for the 1979 murder of a Los Angeles area 7-Eleven manager, and, shortly thereafter, three other people at a motel.

In 1992, a judge recommended clemency for Tookie after he received two Nobel Peace Prize nominations.
http://www.eurweb.com/story.cfm?id=23174

Always Remember that: "Anytime We As A People Are Not Having Our WaySomeone Else Is Having Theirs...And It's Never To Our Advantage."

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

I normally am against capital punishment, but if anyone ever "deserved" it...

Unfortunately it would be Stanley Williams.

The three unnamed people from the article was an entire family that this man executed.

He made each member watch the other get shot w/ a shot-gun...

The good things that he has done since, may help God forgive him, but he deserves to be hanged.
don't you think he wouldbe more useful to black kids as an example of how to turn your life around as opposed to dead? The death penalty is very barbaric and is on the same level as the crime committed....just because a white man in a black robe orders death as revenge...does not mean that he is no different from the criminal who decided to take a life....should someone come back and kill the judge for ordering him to death.......this is one backwoods hick azz country if i've ever seen one.......
Depends,

Yes we don't have the death penalty but that had more to do that the Liberal party politicians who took the choice away from the citizens and decided for us (Not very democratic).
We were also the haven for serial sex killer Charles Ng who took advantage of a clause in our extradition treaty that ensured that he would not be subject to the death penalty if he was returned to the States.
Civilized? I get rather uncivil when it comes to getting rid of these vermin that prey on the innocent and just so you know I had a sister who was killed by her asshole husband who subsequently killed himself when the cops showed pictures of her battered body that was his handy work.
So I guess I have reeeeaal strong feelings about the subject that ain't up for debate.
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
...they say our experiences shape our views ....


Your experiences and your character shape your views. It would be dishonest to say that revenge doesn't ever cross the minds of any one victimized, either directly or indirectly, but true emotional closure comes without vengeance.

Killing the killer will not bring back the dead and it will not repair the hole left in the hearts of the dead's loved ones. It will only be another killing, a legalized killing.
The intention is not to bring back the dead. Revenge is minor the way I see it is that that person will never have a chance to kill again.
No other families will be victim. If you kill you die simple.
I would never let a dangerous dog roam through our neighbourhood killing our children and pets so why would I let a person do the same thing. These people are phsychopaths they see conscience and morality as a weakness to be exploited. They care only for their own gratification at the expense of others.

Stanley "Tookie" Williams, the founder of the Crips gang. This guy has created a legacy of death in the founding of a criminal oraganization that stretches across the US and Canada. His opposition the "Bloods" and his crew vy for control of the drug trade to sell poison to their communities. Drug addiction and bloodshed to the black community and this is the guy you want to save? There are many gang and crime leaders who still control their groups from the safety of a prison cell.
So he wrote some children's books, how many children have died in drivebys??
Kevin41 to answer your question- no

As I said before I would not have a dangerous person or animal running uncontrolled in my neighbourhood. He has killed in the past and it was not a matter that he attempting to defend his family but was cold blooded murder.

I see nothing redeeming and have heard the old con talk of "I have changed I am a better man"before. TFB.
It would have been one thing if it was just one killing that could be explained as perhaps an "accident" but when the body count starts piling up to four or more persons... I also hold him culpable for the actions of his gang as he created and lead it, for the continued victimization of their respective communities drug and gang violence.
Would his living lead to understanding? Would his death? I say let his past victims decide what his fate would be. I know how I would vote if I were on the list.
...and no telling how many Black people Tookie Williams, Tookie's associates, and/or other Black gangs are responsible for killing over three decades.

Heck, in the early seventies, members of the Crips would hold up at gun point, Black men and women who wore Black leather jackets, the jackets owned by the victims.

Many such incidents took place at the Hollywood Bowl, and/or other social events, where under normal circumstances it would not even cross a concert goer's mind that they would be held up at gun point, shot, beaten, maimed, and/or killed, for their clothing, jewelry, wallet, Black leather jacket, etc., etc. while taking in a concert, etc., etc., during a family and friends outing.

It would not be any great loss to the Black community to have Tookie Williams and/or others who have been responsible for the deaths of numerous innocent Black men and women, over the years, put to death.

Mind you, Tookie Williams is on Death Row for killing a Korean family, and a Caucasian male.

.....not to mention untold numbers of Black innocent victims killed or maimed, many no Thanks to the likes of Tookie Williams, other Black gang members, and/or his or their, criminal associates.

********************************
Agents Arrest 8 in Gang Sweep

Action is aimed at drug-related violence in Baldwin Village in southwest L.A. Seven more are detained on parole violations.

By Richard Winton, Times Staff Writer

November 11, 2005

The FBI and Los Angeles Police Department on Thursday arrested what authorities described as the leaders of a gang responsible for 28 murders over the last five years in and around a one-square-mile area of southwest Los Angeles.

Hundreds of heavily armored LAPD officers and FBI agents carrying 16 federal drug indictments stormed locations in the Baldwin Village area, arresting suspected members of the Black P-Stone gang.
The arrest capped more than a year of investigation in which authorities used informants to infiltrate the organization and make drug buys that were recorded secretly on videotape. All of the charges related to drug offenses, including conspiracy to distribute crack cocaine.

"This is a battle between good and evil. These are evil people. They are murderers. They are drug dealers. They poison these neighborhoods," Police Chief William J. Bratton said at a news conference. "We are making a major effort to disrupt and hopefully dismantle the leadership of one of the more prolifically violent gangs in the city of Los Angeles."

Bratton said the Black P-Stones have deep roots in a gritty section of low-slung apartment houses between La Brea Avenue and Crenshaw Boulevard south of Coliseum Street. Baldwin Village, for generations known as "the Jungle" for its rich assortment of tropical foliage, was the backdrop for portions of the crime film "Training Day."

Baldwin Village has long been an island of heavy gang activity in a larger community of middle-class and upper-middle-class neighborhoods that dot southwest Los Angeles at the foot of the Baldwin Hills, said Police Capt. James Craig, division commander for the southwest area.

Baldwin Village is less than a mile square, but the LAPD estimates that it is home to 700 to 800 gang members. Police Lt. Paul Vernon said that is an extraordinarily high ratio "” even for the city's highest-crime neighborhoods. "These are the guys who lure teenagers into the gang life," he said.

Over the last five years, Black P-Stone members have been involved in 800 street robberies and 1,500 aggravated assaults as well as the 28 murders, said Craig.

Bratton has been so concerned about crime in Baldwin Village that he selected the area as one of five neighborhoods to receive extra officers, who are pursuing small crimes such as trespassing in hopes of preventing more serious crimes. Craig said that this effort has reduced crime somewhat, but that officials expect a larger drop in the wake of the arrests.

The FBI and LAPD called the investigation "Operation Stone Cold." Detectives spent more than a year building cases against gang leaders with street nicknames such as "Briminal," "Blaster" and "Bandit."

Authorities said many of the cases are built around videotapes of gang members selling drugs to informants.

"We've worked to put them away for a very long time. Those arrested today face 40 years to life if convicted," J. Stephen Tidwell, assistant director in charge of the Los Angeles FBI office, said at a news conference announcing the arrests.

Authorities had arrested eight people as of 8 p.m. Thursday and were searching for eight others. An additional seven not listed on arrest warrants were detained for alleged parole violations and other charges.

Those arrested Thursday included: Shannon Thomas Adkins, known as "Big Stray Dogg," 31, of Los Angeles; Lorenzo Clay II, known as "Big Man," 32, of Hawthorne; Ronald Herbert Ellis, known as "Blaster," 40, of Los Angeles; Lawrence Eugene Hill Sr., known as "LB" and "Lil Black," 35; David Dermaine Jones, known as "Tall Blood" and "Popkorn," 29, of Los Angeles; Derek Pascascio, known as "PB" and "Quran Durant," 29, of Los Angeles; Aaron Westley Smith Sr., known as "Bandit," 31, of Los Angeles; James Womack IV, also known as "J-Berry" and "J-Bear," 32, of Inglewood.

Eight others remain fugitives: Carlos Merrel Broady, also known as "Wink," 28; Cornel Crosby Carnegie, known as "J.J.," 26; Mark Anthony Dacosta, known as "Marky Boy," 34; Jesse Lee Floyd III, known as "Jesse James," 49; Ronald Lionel Hill Jr., known as "Big Rat Boy," 26; Quentin Lamont Howard, known as "Briminal," 32; Richard Pecantte, known as "Richie," 37; and Ray Dannell Walker.

*******************************
Mind you, this activity has been going on since the seventies, in the area commonly referred to as the "Jungle", other parts of South Central Los Angeles, and/or other Black parts of town, activity that has led to the death of numerous innocent Black people over the years, the victims and/or the assailants, being Black people.

The authorities intend to clean up Los Angeles County, the City of Los Angeles, and/or other cities across the U.S., because this is necessary to promote business development, make for a safer environment for families, etc., etc.

....and it is certain, that those who participate in this type of activity have been warned, way in advance. It would behoove those who have not been arrested, to quit while they are ahead. Should they continue to operate, they can't honestly say they have not been warned.

Any individual or group of individuals who choose to continue to be participants in this type of activity, will either conform to respect the rights of others, or policing authorities and the court system will make it very uncomfortable for those who choose to live such a life style, at the expense of the law abiding.

Michael Lofton

Attachments

Last edited {1}
blaqfist--I feel just the opposite. Who has the right to judge 'Tookie' then or now? IMO a tribunal needs to question and hold accountable the very judicial structure that is judging him.

Kevin41--his usefulness is w/o question. The fact that he transcended inside the judicial system shows the true nature of the "beast" that created the judicial system in the first place.

Blacksanction--No one has the right to take another's life and no one has the right to take the life of another who has taken another's life.

When you do your research 'especially in "Destruction of the Black Civilization" by Dr. Chancellor Williams you'll discover just how un-democractic this nation really is....

The very word "civil" has no value, meaning or honor in this country. Ancient Africans--who invented true democracy knew the meaning of this word and practiced it very well.

Isome--Killing the killer "is" barbaric. I wonder if the loved ones have visited "Tookie" and started on their road of forgiveness?

Blacksanction--revenge is what has black people in a pickled situation to this very day; and, contrary to what you say--Tookie was locked up and in essence 'no one else' has suffered since.

The legacy of death ended when he trascended to a higher level of learning and understanding.

Kevin41--His obvious ability to "influence more people to change while alive" is apparent!

Dissident--formerly Keynote I will look into your suggested documentary.

Blacksanction-Tookies action(s) speak louder than any previous convict's talk of "I have changed I am a better man". I know of 2 other men who served time and became better men by their actions rather than words--Malcolm X and Carl Upchurch. Keep in mind Malcolm X did not kill, while Carl Upchurch did. Do you have anyone to add to this list?

Norland--IMO "legalized killing" is the right of no one.

You are exactly correct,though, we live and breath inside the Euro-version of everything, every single holiday and regular day.


Fine bump
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksanction:
Kevin41 to answer your question- no

As I said before I would not have a dangerous person or animal running uncontrolled in my neighbourhood. He has killed in the past and it was not a matter that he attempting to defend his family but was cold blooded murder.

I see nothing redeeming and have heard the old con talk of "I have changed I am a better man"before. TFB.
It would have been one thing if it was just one killing that could be explained as perhaps an "accident" but when the body count starts piling up to four or more persons... I also hold him culpable for the actions of his gang as he created and lead it, for the continued victimization of their respective communities drug and gang violence.
Would his living lead to understanding? Would his death? I say let his past victims decide what his fate would be. I know how I would vote if I were on the list.


I hear ya..I wasn't necessarily talking about him roaming the neighborhood...i was thinking more of using him as an educational entity to help brothers in there go back to their communities to break the cycles of behavior that got them there in the first place. I try to view the world through an academic lens...not an emotional or passionate one....that can lead you to embrcing illogical ass thinking...like the Lofton,s, CF and Eggewhite types....plus I want my level of analysis towards the solution to black people's problems to be a little more sophisticated than the " Cage em and Fry em" azz solutions the country has for us as of now.......but do not get me wrong, I do respect your views because I am in no position to be judgemental of them........
Thx Kevin41 I respect your thoughts but theory and reality are two different things. This is not an emotion thing with me. I can calmly say that if someone were to harm my family that no matter where they went I would hunt them down Smilewith extreme predudice no matter if it took years.

Had Tookie been a child of 10 or even 16 I might be able to believe the claim that he was a misguided child but he was an adult when he committed these crimes.

He's had 24 more years than his victims to redeem himself.

And now for the academic test.

Would you give the same chance for redemption if this were Adolf Hitler and he was in the process of continuing his progrom against Jews, Russians, and Blacks (Yes there were blacks in Germany at the time). You are alone with him and you have a gun if you kill him it would save millions of lives if you don't you along with those will die. What would you do tick tock tick tock.

I feel the same way about some of the killers out there. Tookie's legacy regardless of what he may do or say is that his gang still exists and still reaps victims.For me that is beyond redemption.
Well, this is all rather ironic, BLACKSANCTION. Contradictory, actually.

On the "Kill The White People" thread you definitely was forwarding concepts of Redemption. Funny how that works... That and how your Hunt Them With A Vengence persona takes a vacation about "gangs" and thangs still in existence and reaping victims, causing terror or otherwise threatening the quality and chances of life.

Interesting though...

quote:
Another example of becoming what you hate by doing what has been done to you. Killing only begets killing.
Interesting how you kicked that shit to the curb. LOL

Yeah, you really believe in that one! sck
His gang he gets the credit for the creation of the Crips. He's still considered the spiritual father of the gang hence the vengence should he be executed.

Depends on what you mean by "concept of gangs" In broad terms gangs have been around for thousands of years.
The Mafia, The Hell's Angels, The Banditos, The Bloods, Yakuza, Tongs, sure they all started as nice social clubs then they went off the rails and started victimizing their own people.
Not really Nmaginate as I have ancestry to whites and asians as well as black. I have relatives who are married to whites and have children. So why would I be stupid and try to destroy part of what I am... that is self-hate. Family is family regardless of the colour of their skin.
So I standby my positions. Subscription to genocide that would be a threat to my own family is very silly, killing a person who is a clear threat to my community is another.
quote:
Another example of becoming what you hate by doing what has been done to you. Killing only begets killing.

Nice throw back. The comment was directed at the commentator who was claiming that whites were intent on wiping out blacks, so lets do it to them before they do it to us.
Yes killing only begets killing- yes if you kill my family then expect that I won't turn the other cheek. If blacks started killing whites then expect that the white would return the favour. I am not seeing the difficult concept here.
Oh please Nmaginate enlighten me as to how I am a hypocrite? That is what you wanted to claim?
Again, you kicked that "Killing Only Begets Killing" stuff to the curb.

quote:
I have relatives who are married to whites and have children.
So now the truth comes out. Far be it for you to say that on the actual thread it pertains.

Either you believe in "killing" or you don't. Or, more than anything, you don't say little quaint cliche type stuff that you can't and won't maintain across the board.

Killing only begets killing.

So? Your reason for wanting Tookie, etc. killed? You and I both know it's not in-line with that little axiom.

Nowhere here have you said, "If Tookie is killed, it will only beget more killing."

It ain't that hard.
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksanction:
His gang he gets the credit for the creation of the Crips. He's still considered the spiritual father of the gang hence the vengence should he be executed.

Depends on what you mean by "concept of gangs" In broad terms gangs have been around for thousands of years.
The Mafia, The Hell's Angels, The Banditos, The Bloods, Yakuza, Tongs, sure they all started as nice social clubs then they went off the rails and started victimizing their own people.


I can't speak with any authority on whether those gangs began as social clubs, so I won't 'spute your word on that.

quote:
Yes killing only begets killing- yes if you kill my family then expect that I won't turn the other cheek. If blacks started killing whites then expect that the white would return the favour. I am not seeing the difficult concept here.


I would, however, like to get into the concept of killing begets killing, also known as violence begets violence.

When it gets right down to it, the concept of killing for monetary gain is a matter of US foreign policy -- in matters of waging war, our national interests include the economic interests of multi-nationals. Have you ever read the pamphlet by USMC General Smedley Butler? Here's a small sample:
    I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

    During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

Our government currently condones torture, uses weapons and strategies that kill (if not outright targets) civilians, yet dehumanizes the victims by referring to them as "collateral damage". The bombing of all of Afghanistan was vengeful and in pursuit of a relative handful of individuals.

The national debate about war after 09.11.01 was framed with the sentiment that if we do not do something, other countries will think we are "weak". A most high-schoolish rational for mass human destruction, but nonetheless, it was commonly heard then and is still used today by otherwise reasonable adults.

Finally, there's the small matter of violence against people of African descent by those supposed to protect & serve that is merely part of a continuum of violence against us and a veritable cornucopia of indigenous peoples the world over.

That being the case, it must be taken into consideration that the fish rots from the head down.

Gangs kill to initimidate, for revenge, over money-making turf (though that "turf" isn't owned by any of them) and to prove their mettle and that they aren't soft -- so I presume if movies and heresay are accurate. What they do is no different than what has been done by people in uniforms, and under the cover of written or a "higher" law, since the inception of this country.

Violence is a part of the American fabric, so it stands to reason that their violence beget Tookie's violence.


Just when does it stop?
Nmaginate I could careless if Tookie lives or dies. I had said that it should be left in the hands of his victims (the ones still living).

Just because I do not subscribe to your way of thinking does not mean you have to stalk me from page to page. I may not be a black American (thus perhaps your feelings of inadequacy and paranoia- but I am black none the less). My embracing of all that makes me what I am does not mean that I side with whites at the detriment of my black brothers (race-traitor!!- grow the fuck up), for as surley as the shit hits the fan I will stand or fall with my brothers. I will not however agree to this bullshit of conspiracy theory of persecution.

I believe in capital punishment. You do not. I believe that citizens have the right not to be mugged,raped or violated and that those that do engage in said activity do so at their own peril. Perhap you have been fortunate and not been the victim or relative of a victim of crime. I am, I have been. Perhaps you believe in second chances, I don't where my family is concerned. This is not classroom theory stuff, Tookies killed people and victimized his own community, his gang continues to do so on four continents (great legacy for a man of peace).
I have had dealings with physchopaths and sociopaths -neither has any remorse or pity for the rest of us. The scary part is they know how to play the game of normalcy, there is no cure as they are not sick, they are who they are and we are their prey.

So if you want to help them be my guest but... until you have walked in my shoes just fuck-off - alledged smartass.

Woops forgot to mention. Should tookie be executed his former gang that he created- The Crips- had planned on revenge killings of police and prison guards.
Tookie had renounced violence and rejected his gang but apparently Crips forever forever Crips tfro

Damn I should not post and drink scotch!
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
Do you get the feeling that if Stanley "Tookie" Williams was White, and the majority of members at African-America Forums were FOR his death, that Black Neocons would be suddenly against the Death Penalty for him?


Why yes, yes I do!

Or... if he were white and we had the same argument, there'd be neo-cons making snarky comments about being bleeding heart liberals.
quote:
Nmaginate I could careless if Tookie lives or dies... Just because I do not subscribe to your way of thinking does not mean you have to stalk me from page to page.
Dude, the problem is you're having problem subscribing to your own professed way of thinking. Again:
Nowhere here have you said, "If Tookie is killed, it will only beget more killing."

So obviously you don't believe your little quaint axiom: Killing only begets killing. That cliche' you thought was so relevant (or cute) on the other thread. You say it when it is convenient. Ignore it when it conveniently fits "your way of thinking".

Hmmm... And I don't recall listing "my way of thinking" here... And oh my gosh!!! Osh & Kosh! We have another one of those creatures who feel as if they are being "stalked". Big Grin

Too funny... Talk about paranoia. Roll Eyes

quote:
My embracing of all that makes me what I am does not mean that I side with whites at the detriment of my black brothers...
There's another one of them balls thrown OFF-THE-WALL. Dude, you're Slippin' again. Slippin' Into Darkness.

It might not be paranoia that's bugging you after-all. I could be some guilt... considering how nothing I've said questioned whether you take sides with Whites to the detriment of Blacks (though I was going to say something about your curious notion of "family" as it relates to what potentially threatens them).

quote:
I believe in capital punishment. You do not.
Again, I don't recall listing "my way of thinking" here.

quote:
Perhap you have been fortunate and not been the victim or relative of a victim of crime.
And perhaps you should stop your assumptions and check them at the door. You're assuming that I'm speaking from some classroom perspective. You're also assuming that your experience makes your view bona fide. Unquestionably legitimate and proper.

GET A CLUE!

quote:
So if you want to help them be my guest but... until you have walked in my shoes just fuck-off - alledged smartass.
Dude, likewise, you haven't walked in my shoes... So this idea that you have some extra legitimacy because of what you perceive to be unique to you scores you no points.

My thing with you is simple. Either you believe that shit you say or you don't. Walk in them shoes, bruh. Otherwise, control your feet and your mouth from speaking and stepping in directions you don't want to go.

Again, either you believe KILLING BEGETS KILLING or you don't.

quote:
Woops forgot to mention. Should tookie be executed his former gang that he created- The Crips- had planned on revenge killings of police and prison guards.
Well, seems like an example of your little quip: KILLING BEGETS KILLING.

Now what's confusing about that? It follows the very little thing you wanted to preach.
Nmaginate dude,

Like dude I take it that it is okay that like dude, Tookie makes victims of your family and friends, dude?

Dude you're stressed, Tookie don't kill people. Crips kill people.

Dude call the cops I'm slipping into darkness!

Dude score points. Er dude am pretty sure I said Fuck-off. I am sure that is what I said. Fuck-off does not infer that I was hoping for your consent to fuck-off.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
My thing with you is simple. Either you believe that shit you say or you don't. Walk in them shoes, bruh. Otherwise, control your feet and your mouth from speaking and stepping in directions you don't want to go.

Again, either you believe KILLING BEGETS KILLING or you don't.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hmm "thing with you" (signs of a stalker). Hey sport we do not have a relationship.

I said what I said before and now I stand by it.

It ain't theory puta it be fact dude heart
Poor little Sanction.

The dude who would be stalked.... Because he can't back up what he claims he stands by.

Too funny...
quote:
And where have you actually established where you actually believe what you say?

KILLING BEGETS KILLING... but you're all for Capital Punishment. Nice! Big Grin
My apologies to other thread readers.
Nmaginate has a comprehension problem and other issues (fixation) with me.

I see a substantial difference between the extermination of a race, culture, or ethnic group as opposed to the killing of an individual who is or poses a threat to a community. Killing a race of persons for the actions of a few does not make sense. Killing a person for his or her specific actions/ and involvement in a life taking crime against their community does.
Its my logic and my belief take it or leave it.

This is a very interesting discussion and I hope that dialogue can continue.
quote:
Killing a race of persons for the actions of a few does not make sense.
Ummm... That's not the issue. Either you believe in this stuff or you don't:
KILLING ONLY BEGETS KILLING.

On the other thread, you didn't qualify that statement by saying "in this case" or anything to the effect that said such an absolute statement had exceptions. And that idea is one that's forward pretty often by Anti-War and anti-capital punishment types all the time.

So it matters not that there is a difference between the "call" for extermination and the call for execution. That statement , as pointed out earlier, is an anti-violence statement. And an absolute statement at that. One that hardly suggests that there are exceptions.

Now, you can pretend like you never said it or even act like you actually qualified it but that is obviously not the case.

quote:
Its my logic and my belief take it or leave it.
Yada, yada... I don't care whether you're pro-capital punishment or against Kambon's extermination statement. It has indeed been your "logic" that's been at issue.

KILLING ONLY BEGETS KILLING, again, is an anti-violence statement.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
Do you get the feeling that if Stanley "Tookie" Williams was White, and the majority of members at African-America Forums were FOR his death, that Black Neocons would be suddenly against the Death Penalty for him?


lol There'd be a rousing rendition of "KUMBYA" followed by a heart felt round of "Forgiveness."


How can you surmise/forcast our behavior in this scenario? Admit it.....you don't know what a "neocon" would say....
^You should tell that to your Conservative brethren who make predictions about what Liberals and Leftists would do in certain situations as well.


It's kind of easy to guage what a Neocon might do, look at their track record of positions and look at what their party ideology is. They often support killing Minorities, but they are often against rich White people getting in trouble. Look at how many Neocons were against Kenneth Lay going to jail and how many are calling endicting Karl Rove, Dick Cheney and "Scooter" Libby a "left-wing conspiracy".
In 1981 the state of California convicted Williams of murdering Albert Owen, Thsai-Shai Yang, Yen-I Yang, and Yee Chen Lin during two seperate robberies and sentenced him to death. Owen had been taken into the backroom of the convenience store he worked and shot execution style in the back of the head. The Yangs and their daughter were all killed by close range shotgun blasts. Williams bragged to friends about the Owen murder. He said "I shot some white guy and got $63 off him". Ballistics evidence proved his guilt at trial. He is currently waiting on death row in San Quentin State Prison. The state denied a clemency request for Williams in 2005. His execution date has been set for December 13, 2005.

It's kind of easy to guage what a Neocon might do, look at their track record of positions and look at what their party ideology is.

Given the circumstances above: you just might be right.


Then you create a scenario:

Originally posted by Empty Purnata:Do you get the feeling that if Stanley "Tookie" Williams was White, and the majority of members at African-America Forums were FOR his death, that Black Neocons would be suddenly against the Death Penalty for him?

E.P., your scenario, shows your bias against people who do not think like you do. Your scenario has no credibility.
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:

E.P., your scenario, shows your bias against people who do not think like you do. Your scenario has no credibility.


That's not true, no matter how many times you you say it!

Based just on the posts in this forum, what the white neo-cons favor so, too, do the black-faced neo-cons. E.P.'s generalization was reasonable.

It has nothing to do with bias and everything to do with observation.
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:
Then you create a scenario:

Originally posted by Empty Purnata:Do you get the feeling that if Stanley "Tookie" Williams was White, and the majority of members at African-America Forums were FOR his death, that Black Neocons would be suddenly against the Death Penalty for him?

E.P., your scenario, shows your bias against people who do not think like you do. Your scenario has no credibility.


You haven't shown that I was wrong. All you did was post the story and then say that I was wrong to say that if he were White that Neocons would want him free.

I gave you examples of how Neocons let White criminals off the hook such as Kenny Lay, Karl Rove. Some people on the Religious Right also wanted to release another cold-blooded killer: Carla Faye Tucker. Just like Tookie Williams, she murdered someone in cold blood, then turned her life around in prison. The Christian Right wanted her set free because of her religious conversion, but George Bush had her executed anyway. Tookie Williams has also killed in cold blood (unlike Tucker, his murder was spontaneous and not a murder like Tucker's) and he turned his life around in prison. Yet no Religious Right loonies are gathering to his defsense.

That's a perfect example that proves my case.

Also, are you a Neocon? You seem to be getting awful upset about my use of the term. Most Conservatives who aren't Neocons don't really get offended by the term because they consider Neocons to be a "different breed".

Bias? Come on, like you don't show bias? Even "Moderates" are biased to their own neutral position, or they usually slant a little to the Left or to the Right. EVERYONE is biased, don't ever let anyone tell you different.
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:

E.P., your scenario, shows your bias against people who do not think like you do. Your scenario has no credibility.


That's not true, no matter how many times you you say it!

Based just on the posts in this forum, what the white neo-cons favor so, too, do the black-faced neo-cons. E.P.'s generalization was reasonable.

It has nothing to do with bias and everything to do with observation.


Thank you! Wink

I have never seen a Black Neoconservative disagree with a White Neoconservative on anything. When Black Neocons DO dissent with their White overlords, it is because they believe their White counterparts are being "too lenient" (ie, not extreme enough).

Have you ever seen that movie "Life" with Eddie Murphy and Martin Lawrence sentenced to a chain gang prison for life? Black Neocons often remind me of that Black prison guard in the movie that would beat up on the inmates verbally and psychologically more than his White prison guard overlord.


I think I hit a sore spot with Jeff because I said "Neocon". I think he responded prematurely and didn't realize I was referring to Neocons and not reasonable Black Conservatives like Colin Powell and Denzel Washington.
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:

E.P., your scenario, shows your bias against people who do not think like you do. Your scenario has no credibility.


That's not true, no matter how many times you you say it!

Based just on the posts in this forum, what the white neo-cons favor so, too, do the black-faced neo-cons. E.P.'s generalization was reasonable.

It has nothing to do with bias and everything to do with observation.


Have you observed anything like the scenario E.P. mentioned?
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:

Have you observed anything like the scenario E.P. mentioned?


I have observed that: "what the white neo-cons favor so, too, do the black-faced neo-cons." without question! They unthinkingly condone war, imperialism, torture, Black self-denigration, anti-labor policies, etc., just as white neo-cons do. They will argue their position using predictable rhetoric that can be found on any far rightwing rabid website, reference it as a source and become ever so mum when presented with hard facts to the contrary.
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:
Then you create a scenario:

Originally posted by Empty Purnata:Do you get the feeling that if Stanley "Tookie" Williams was White, and the majority of members at African-America Forums were FOR his death, that Black Neocons would be suddenly against the Death Penalty for him?

E.P., your scenario, shows your bias against people who do not think like you do. Your scenario has no credibility.


You haven't shown that I was wrong. All you did was post the story and then say that I was wrong to say that if he were White that Neocons would want him free.

I gave you examples of how Neocons let White criminals off the hook such as Kenny Lay, Karl Rove. Some people on the Religious Right also wanted to release another cold-blooded killer: Carla Faye Tucker. Just like Tookie Williams, she murdered someone in cold blood, then turned her life around in prison. The Christian Right wanted her set free because of her religious conversion, but George Bush had her executed anyway. Tookie Williams has also killed in cold blood (unlike Tucker, his murder was spontaneous and not a murder like Tucker's) and he turned his life around in prison. Yet no Religious Right loonies are gathering to his defsense.

That's a perfect example that proves my case.

Oh did Mr Williams claim that he was a changed man because of his religious (christian convictions)?

Also, are you a Neocon? Black ConservativeYou seem to be getting awful upset about my use of the term. Not upset at all E.P. Most Conservatives who aren't Neocons don't really get offended by the term because they consider Neocons to be a "different breed".

Bias? Come on, like you don't show bias? Even "Moderates" are biased to their own neutral position, or they usually slant a little to the Left or to the Right. EVERYONE is biased, don't ever let anyone tell you different.
True

Show me where you are right in your depiction, sir.
Did he claim to be a changed Christian man? Who cares whether or not he was a Christian? He was still a new man, he even wrote children's books discouraging violence.


BTW, I specifically said "Black Neocon", I don't consider all Black Conservatives, or even Conservatives in general, to be Neocons. Neocon is a very specific group, even more specific than non-Neocon Conservatives.

However, Neocons are the fastest growing ideological group in America and are quickly gaining political power and social sway.
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Did he claim to be a changed Christian man?


Being obtuse is a trait of the neo-con. Perhaps that is what actually you are. You're not going to find an exact parallel. A mere cursory look around this very forum proves E.P. right in his assertion.


Well, Jeff did say he was a "Conservative with Libertarian leanings".

That sounds somewhat similar to many Neocons. Well, Neocons are corporate Libertarians, they are governmental fascists who claim to be "minimalists" because they want government out of business, but have no problem with using govenrment to outlaw sexual freedom and women's reproductive rights if they are personally offended.

That's what a Neocon is. It's up to Jeff to figure whether or not that sounds like him.
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
That's what a Neocon is. It's up to Jeff to figure whether or not that sounds like him.


It doesn't really matter what he calls himself. Once someone shows you what they are, believe them. Wink

You were right and any supercilious questions now about alleging selectivity of rightwing pseudo-Christians are irrelevant.
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Did he claim to be a changed Christian man?


Being obtuse is a trait of the neo-con. Perhaps that is what actually you are. You're not going to find an exact parallel. A mere cursory look around this very forum proves E.P. right in his assertion.


Well, Jeff did say he was a "Conservative with Libertarian leanings".

That sounds somewhat similar to many Neocons. Well, Neocons are corporate Libertarians, they are governmental fascists who claim to be "minimalists" because they want government out of business, but have no problem with using govenrment to outlaw sexual freedom and women's reproductive rights if they are personally offended.

That's what a Neocon is. It's up to Jeff to figure whether or not that sounds like him.


Awwdamn, Isome, you might have me pegged.
Outlawing sexual freedom? Not sure what you mean by that......Between two consenting responsible adults. Ok.

Isome, there was a time that I had no problem with a woman having the final decision with what she will do with her body.....and then Partial Birth Abortion became an issue some years back.....turned me off....had to rethink the abortion issue altogether.
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:

Isome, there was a time that I had no problem with a woman having the final decision with what she will do with her body.....and then Partial Birth Abortion became an issue some years back.....turned me off....had to rethink the abortion issue altogether.


I don't know how this became a discussion on abortion rights (b/c I sure as hell didn't bring that shit up), but you have just PROVEN yourself a black-faced, unthinking, willfully ignorant neo-con!!

There is no such thing in the medical profession as "partial birth abortion." That was a term a linguistics guy, who works for the neo-cons, found would be the most disturbing to an unthinking public. (I'll find his name and post it later, but you have certainly revealed your true self.)

:: This is the deal ::

Late-term abortions, which the neo-cons renamed "partial birth abortions" are so fucking rare it shouldn't be an issue. There are only done in a hospital and only when the mother's life is in danger. There are some women who would die rather than save themselves, but there are others who want the chance to live. A women's health facility --which dispenses birth control pills, sponges, diaphrams, etc., performs pap smears and sometimes provides abortion services-- lacks the necessary life-saving equipment to handle a patient who would need such a procedure, which pre-emptively quells any argument that they are performed in the low-cost clinics incessantly targeted by the hypocritically violent and anti-women's rights pro-life crowd.

I am in awe of women who give their lives so their child can be born, and I am equally in awe of the women who fight to save their own. If a mother's life is in jeopardy by the impending birth of a child and her options are to bare her child, yet leave her other three motherless, she should not be denied her choice to live.

Amazing that some very vocal and ignorant people wax judgemental about the subject using a term made-up by anti-women's rights fanatics! In fact, the fool who made up the name (I must find it) is a rank opportunist who probably has no feeling about the issue one way or the other, but he knows how to push the buttons of sheeple.

You fell for that smegma, hook line and sinker and showed yourself for the neo-con that you are.

:: On Edit ::
    Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary lists 30 definitions of various abortions, yet no definition of partial birth abortion.

    The term "therapeutic abortion" appears in both and is defined as an "abortion induced to save the life or health (physical or mental) of a pregnant woman; sometimes performed after rape or incest." Notice how this definition focuses on women's health?

    If these senators care about an unborn child's endangered life, then they must specify how they intend to protect the living mother's health.

    The procedure targeted in the bill could save the life of a mother or prevent serious complications and injury, including paralysis, which is why former president Bill Clinton twice vetoed similar bills.
Last edited {1}
MBM in the ideal society you are correct.

Unfortunately it depends on what you believe the purpose of law is for, the protection of the citizen or for the criminal? I subscibe to the idea that the original law had been for the protection of the citizen, but lawyers got involved and now it protects the criminals from accountablity and punishment (yes this is an over simplification-as this does not address issue of the wrongfully convicted).

The Williams case will be decided by the people who are the loudest-not the most correct(on either side of the issue) to get the ear of Swarzenegger- politics politics politics.

Off topic- We could talk about native justice healing circles.
Well, it has been proven that the death penalthy is not a deterrant to crime/murder. It is also true that with all of the various appeals etc. that the DP requires - it is actually more expensive to put someone to death than to keep them in prison for life. Further, society is protected equally whether the person is behind bars "forever" or they are put to death. That said, I'm not sure what benefit the death penalty provides to society.
I guess I just have not evolved enough to give up on vengeance and I am not sure I will reach that spot.

If it were a matter that the person was going to be buried in a secure max facility and would never ever have human contact again (barring medical emergency) I might reconsider my blood thirsty ways.

There are many criminals who still control their gangs while inside the prison. Prisons are not as secure as people are lead to believe, guards are not all honest or smart and hence escapes happen and organized crime and drugs florish in prison system.

Besides myself who here has had dealings with persons who were lifers or long term institutionalized? (If this is off topic please let me know)
...Blacksanction,

California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger appoints individuals who defend, protect, and/or promote the cause for victims rights, and not the rights of criminals.....

"Governor Schwarzenegger Appoints Two Members of the Board of Prison Terms

Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger today announced the appointment of Margarita Perez as chairwoman of the Board of Prison Terms and Susan Fisher as a member of the board.

"Margarita and Susan bring a wealth of experience and knowledge of law enforcement and parole in California," said Governor Schwarzenegger. "I thank them for their willingness to serve the people of California."

Perez has 15 years of experience in Board of Prison Terms law enforcement. Since 2001 she has served as a senior investigator and parole agent in the investigations division. Perez served from 1996 to 2001 as a parole agent at the California Department of Corrections. She began her career in law enforcement as a correctional officer first at Avenal State Prison and later as a correctional sergeant at Folsom State prison. Perez is a former captain with the California Army National Guard. She served on active duty during Operation Desert Storm and volunteered for active duty following the terrorist attacks of September 11th.

Perez, 41, is a Democrat from Cameron Park, CA. She is a graduate of the University of New York with a Bachelor of Science in general business. This position requires Senate confirmation and the statutory compensation is $103,317.

Fisher has more than a decade of experience working on behalf of crime victims. Since 1999 she has been the director of the Doris Tate Crime Victims Bureau. She served as a member of the board of directors of the Doris Tate Crime Victims Bureau for seven years. She has also been a member of several community crime victims' organizations including the Institute for Crime and Trauma Survivors, the San Diego County chapter of Parents of Murdered Children and since 2000 as president of Citizens for Law and Order.

Fisher, 50, is a Republican from Oceanside, CA. She is a graduate of the Pacific College of Nursing. This position requires Senate confirmation and the statutory compensation is $99,693.

The Board of Prison Terms considers parole release and establishes the length and conditions of parole for all persons sentenced to the Department of Corrections under the indeterminate sentencing law and for persons sentenced to prison for a term of less than life and those serving a sentence of life without the possibility of parole."

**************************************
.......meaning slim chance exists where, or even if, California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger will support Tookie Williams in his quest for clemency, at the expense of the heirs of the victims of the individuals killed by Tookie Williams and/or his criminal associates.

The heirs of the victims killed by Tookie Williams, and his partners in criminal activity, have made it very clear that nothing short of execution should take place to bring closure to this set of circumstances.
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Fine:
A very keen political move by Arnold to take the pressure off himself. And, yes it would appear that support to even keep "Tookie" imprisoned but alive is nil...

Fine


...some of the functions of elected officials within California, none of which are suited to protect criminals or criminal activity at the expense of the law abiding.

....not really. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is doing his job as an elected official, namely serving the interest of law abiding citizens, to be safe in their possessions, personal effects, etc., against the unlawful criminal acts of other than law abiding citizens and/or otherwise.

An elected official's primary function is to serve the people, namely law abiding citizens. Since Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is an elected official, he is carrying out his mandated by law, and sworn under oath, duty to protect the rights of the law abiding, first and foremost, and not the rights of known criminals.

**********************

From Arnold Himself....

"Arnold Schwarzenegger Sworn-in As The 38th Governor of California

On the morning of Monday, November 17th, Arnold Schwarzenegger was sworn-in as the 38th Governor of California on the west steps of the State Capitol. Over 7,000 people witnessed the ceremony and millions more in the state and around the world watched the event on television.

Governor Schwarzenegger pledged to make the business of his Administration the concerns of the people. While the state faces many challenges, the Governor is confident that by working together we will achieve meaningful reform.

Restoring California's economic engine is Governor Schwarzenegger's top priority. He is also committed to reforming the education system and balancing the state's budget.

This ambitious and aggressive agenda requires a hard working and dedicated team. Governor Schwarzenegger's Administration includes many experienced individuals representing a depth of expertise and a broad range of views.

Governor Schwarzenegger is honored to serve the people of California, and he is proud to lead the state that welcomed him as an immigrant more than three decades ago. Governor Schwarzenegger is committed to providing every Californian the same chance he was given to achieve the American Dream."


********************

"......But Lora Owens, the stepmother of Albert Owens, said the execution should go forward. She said Williams has not accepted responsibility for his murders and has done nothing to redeem himself.

"To be redeemed means to accept responsibility or assume responsibility and not use it as a means of getting out of just punishment," Owens said.

"He chose to be judge, jury and executioner in a matter of seconds, and yet it has taken years for him to come to justice," she said.

Asked whether she was convinced that Williams murdered her stepson, Owens said: "From the facts given to me, I have no doubts." Then she added, "I was not the one who convicted him; I am not the one who sentenced him; I am trying to keep the memory of Albert alive because he is the one who was done wrong."

Owens was working at the 7-Eleven store, which Williams and three others robbed of $120, according to court records."

Attachments

Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Michael:
quote:
Originally posted by Fine:
A very keen political move by Arnold to take the pressure off himself. And, yes it would appear that support to even keep "Tookie" imprisoned but alive is nil...

Fine


...some of the functions of elected officials within California, none of which are suited to protect criminals or criminal activity at the expense of the law abiding.

....not really. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is doing his job as an elected official, namely serving the interest of law abiding citizens, to be safe in their possessions, personal effects, etc., against the unlawful criminal acts of other than law abiding citizens and/or otherwise.

An elected official's primary function is to serve the people, namely law abiding citizens. Since Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is an elected official, he is carrying out his mandated by law, and sworn under oath, duty to protect the rights of the law abiding, first and foremost, and not the rights of known criminals.

**********************

From Arnold Himself....

"Arnold Schwarzenegger Sworn-in As The 38th Governor of California

On the morning of Monday, November 17th, Arnold Schwarzenegger was sworn-in as the 38th Governor of California on the west steps of the State Capitol. Over 7,000 people witnessed the ceremony and millions more in the state and around the world watched the event on television.

Governor Schwarzenegger pledged to make the business of his Administration the concerns of the people. While the state faces many challenges, the Governor is confident that by working together we will achieve meaningful reform.

Restoring California's economic engine is Governor Schwarzenegger's top priority. He is also committed to reforming the education system and balancing the state's budget.

This ambitious and aggressive agenda requires a hard working and dedicated team. Governor Schwarzenegger's Administration includes many experienced individuals representing a depth of expertise and a broad range of views.

Governor Schwarzenegger is honored to serve the people of California, and he is proud to lead the state that welcomed him as an immigrant more than three decades ago. Governor Schwarzenegger is committed to providing every Californian the same chance he was given to achieve the American Dream."


********************

"......But Lora Owens, the stepmother of Albert Owens, said the execution should go forward. She said Williams has not accepted responsibility for his murders and has done nothing to redeem himself.

"To be redeemed means to accept responsibility or assume responsibility and not use it as a means of getting out of just punishment," Owens said.

"He chose to be judge, jury and executioner in a matter of seconds, and yet it has taken years for him to come to justice," she said.

Asked whether she was convinced that Williams murdered her stepson, Owens said: "From the facts given to me, I have no doubts." Then she added, "I was not the one who convicted him; I am not the one who sentenced him; I am trying to keep the memory of Albert alive because he is the one who was done wrong."

Owens was working at the 7-Eleven store, which Williams and three others robbed of $120, according to court records."


Yes..after 'closer' examination I see the release date -- 2/26/2004 -- I now see the strategy is not brand 'new.'

Fine
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksanction:
MBM in the ideal society you are correct.

Unfortunately it depends on what you believe the purpose of law is for, the protection of the citizen or for the criminal? I subscibe to the idea that the original law had been for the protection of the citizen, but lawyers got involved and now it protects the criminals from accountablity and punishment ....


Oy vay! Kill all the lawyers! No one needs a lawyer.
The bottom line:


The DP merely feeds the human need for blood-lust and vengeance. But on the other hand, it silences the voice of a man that MAY be able to reach, and turn around, those headed down the path he plowed.


*I guess many have not evolved as such....i always thought the hickville thinking of backwoods racist white men...who they are colonized to asprie upwards to......wow.....supremacy at its finest....
quote:
Fry his butt.

Put STanley Williams to death now! by Shadow

"We're also finding more and more dope lawyers defending these gangsters in criminal proceedings, I often wonder how a 18 year unemployed Crip can afford a $500 per hour Ivy League attorney. Some of these dope lawyers operate under the guise of wanting to give the poor black inner city youth the best defense possible and claim to be working "pro bono" (for free), more than once they've been found with large sums of un taxable cash in backpacks or duffel bags. These attorneys risk falling victim to the short fuse and violent tendencies of these gangsters, which offers an added motivation to make sure their client is acquitted. Rival gangs, or even disgruntled fellow gangsters have more than once ambushed a dope lawyer and stolen his cash reward."

........and with enough money any Crip, Blood, MS13, otherwise gang set, no good Reverend Jesse Jackson, other no good poverty pimps, and/or our own no good Black elected officials, can hire any number of unethical atttorneys who choose to use their lawful license to practice law to promote the freedom of individuals who have defrauded, stolen from, killed, maimed, and/or robbed the innocent, many of the innocent being other Black people!


Indeed, the mindset of an Isome, Kevin41, the liberal community, those in our community who promote criminals, and misfits, over the law abiding, etc., etc., will not stop Tookie Williams, and/or those who choose to be so criminal from being executed.

Mind you, the many individuals not even mentioned killed by Tookie Williams, the Crips, and/or the Bloods, have been and continue to be other Black people, yet it seems there are individuals in our community who choose to decriminalize or excuse the perpetrators for their very genocidal, and destructive life style.
Last edited {1}
yeah....expect the sorry azz house negroes to keep the white man's dick in their mouths and suck hard everytime there is an issue regarding black people...their self-subordination to whites does reek of sexual or parental deference to them....in other words.....black men are not punk azz weaklings with no leadership qualities whatsoever.....these negroes(or sick inbred whites playing games) worship whites whenever or however they can......when a topic comes up.....before I read their post I ask myself, "what would a white boy with klan orientation think?"....and I know what to expect from the CF and Lofton types.....hell when a black person finds themselves agreeing with white separatists on how they view black issues........then a self-examination is in order......and if they do not realize as much....there is nothing I can do for them........
I am sorry everybody (but I am from L.A.) and Stanley Williams deserves to be hanged in public.

I beleive in the death penalty, just not in America...

America has an issue with race and class..

But all other things being equal I beleive in the death penalty..

Does it deter criminals, probably not...

But in 1981 this man brutally murdered an innocnet clerk at a liquor store and then an entire family (father, mother & daughter) all within 72 hours.

Now unless some of you are saying he did not do it....

He deserves to hang until he dies...
If they kill Stanley now they would do nothing more than create a 'savior' for the crips, and a martyr for the black community.

His death would conjure up a unique following, and his presence in death would create a stimulus for the community and a stumblingblock for those who seek retribution. I don't suggest that there will be a 'cult-like' following. I just think that since his sentence is so highly controversial and publicized, the fence-sitters, and the disinterested will be persuaded by the outcome of his death. In many ways his death would work against the justice system.
think about it...

Stanley, to many, including those who nominated him for a nobel peace prize, represents human progress. Relevant to this board is the black communal progress that evident to many, not including you. As he is known for creating the gang, he is understood to be able to relate to those that are nesting in what society calls the breeding grounds for criminal activity. His ablity to relate implies that he is an interconnected intermediary or intercessor.

I'm sure you're not picking up what I'm putting down, so I'll digress.

However, I think that his death will be a small step towards providing an alternative solution to the justice systems one dimensional remedie for blacks in general.

The black community is not as attuned as it should be towards blacks being disproportionately killed by the justice system. I think this will give us an opportunity to focus our agency towards valuing our lives, as it is apparent that no one else will.
quote:
Stanley, to many, including those who nominated him for a nobel peace prize, represents human progress. Relevant to this board is the black communal progress that evident to many, not including you. As he is known for creating the gang, he is understood to be able to relate to those that are nesting in what society calls the breeding grounds for criminal activity. His ablity to relate implies that he is an interconnected intermediary or intercessor.


1. Tookie Williams is hardly Nobel Peace Prize material.

...perhaps Tookie merits this award for doing such a fine job promoting the death of numerous innocent Black people.


2. If left up to California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, slim chance exists where Tookie Williams will not be executed.

"Crips" hobbies included extorting money from non gang members, assaults and robberies, most of which occurred on the school grounds making school a very dangerous place to be.....

....and I'm willing to bet, 99.9999999% of this activity took place in the "Hood", where Black people live, specifically a South Central Los Angeles, etc., etc.

.....had this activity occurred in the Caucasian, Korean, Hispanic, Jamaican, Ethiopian, Islamic, Jewish, Filipino, Samoan, etc., community, instead of gunning down unarmed individuals in "cold blood", Tookie Williams and/or his associates, would have met plenty of resistance.....

.......namely the resistance of other armed individuals shooting back at him, and/or his cohorts.......to which slim chance exists where Tookie, and/or many of his associates, would be alive today!
.

3. No telling how many innocent Black people Tookie Williams and/or others are responsible for maiming, killing, robbing, etc.
Last edited {1}
quote:
1. Tookie Williams is hardly Nobel Prize material


This is your opinion. Which is valid and relevant. Unfortunately, not enough people that are relevant to this issue agree. Otherwise there would be no controversy.

quote:
2. Slim chance exists where Tookie Williams will not be executed.


May be true, but not applicable to what I stated. I don't care to calculate his chances for survival, not for me to due. I would like to imagine, however, the impact of his death or life, towards the black community.
HeruStar,

I hear what you are saying, however there are many, many men who are more deserving of your support.
The only thing "Tookie" is connected to is the legacy of the Crips and that is a legacy of fear,drugs and death for his black brothers and sisters. His spawn has done more to destroy the black communities across the globe than some evil whites could have ever envisioned.
Yes he clearly had the leadership ability and vision but he squandered it on evil deeds.
Whitey did not kill "Tookie" Tookie condemned "Tookie."
He is not the second coming or the prophet. He is a false god.
In a world where human progress is foremost, one has to at least contemplate what Stanley can contribute. Let's use Hitler for example; Highly charasmatic, great leader that used his abilities for 'evil deeds'. If Hitler where to all of a sudden, realize his error and change his ways, could he, or could he not, have contributed vastly to the European society?

If we are condemned after realizing our mistakes, then aren't we working against progress?
Well if it were me answering my Hitler question, I would err on the side of caution and blast his brains out his ear.

But hey I just refuse to be socially evolved- I still believe that if we stuck enough murderers heads on pikes to the entrance of our cities (with trite little signs)that there would be a reduction in crime or atleast victims families would feel better Smile.
quote:
Well if it were me answering my Hitler question, I would err on the side of caution and blast his brains out his ear.


MY question was could he contribute?

To which your obvious answer is 'he doen't DESERVE a chance to contribute'.

Well, in light of who deserves what.

I think SOCIETY deserves his(Stanley's) contributions. He has a debt to society. WE all know that the best way to avoid paying a debt is bankruptcy or DEATH. How is his death any compensation? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to owe some of the proceeds from his books, to the families that were wronged. Killing him would be catering to the irrational complexities of a highly EMOTIONAL society. It's not about what's JUSTLY right, or RATIONALLY right, it's about what FEELS right. What's ironic is that in a capitalist driven, profit-oriented society the justice system lets EMOTIONS dictate the supply and demand of harsh penalities whether or not the benefit outways the cost or vice versa.
quote:
people make their choices, and oftentimes, suffer the consequences of those choices.


Yeah, but these 'consequences' are our creation. They are our means of satisfying our thirst for blood and revenge. The death penalty is a consequence without any truly socially agreed upon and defined intentions. Before we can even compromise as to what PURPOSE it serves to kill Stanley, we begin discussing when and how he dies.<--o.k. o.k. this is all neither here nor there...

Stanley represents (from a societal point of view) a criminal that has been rehabilitated. When they let him publish those books, when they produced that movie, they let the community see his atonement, which signifies a remorseful and rehabilitated individual. If and when they sentence him to death, the justice system will be viewed as one that not only has a lack of interest in rehabilitating criminals, but is anti-rehabilitative in that it KILLS it's publicly rehabilitated criminals.
HeruStar,
quote:
If and when they sentence him to death, the justice system will be viewed as one that not only has a lack of interest in rehabilitating criminals, but is anti-rehabilitative in that it KILLS it's publicly rehabilitated criminals.


Not to cavalier about it but,.....yeah, it just might send a message, to people who might in full knowledge, know that they're going in the same direction Tookie had taken.
so we are to put someone to death in hopes that it 'MIGHT' send a message? What if his death does not send the message that is intended? Are we to revive him, and try a different angle? He death is absolute, but the "message" is not. Since the message is incumbent upon how society responds emotionally, whether it be fear, which is thought to lead to deterrence, whether it be a spontaneous joy that dwells on antecedent actions that temporarily satisfy one with a present sense of justice with no regards for ethical consequences of the future, we can't expect the 'message' to be concrete. Emotions are shifty, but rationalism persists through, under, or around irrational emotions. One can expect that the 'message' will evolve into a shameful disgusts in the past and present actions of the justice system.
If I were you jefftec, Blacksanction, etc., etc., ..........

I would leave the floor in useless discussion to the Nmaginates, the Kevin41s, the Empty Purnatas, the Isomes, the Fines, etc., etc., to have their own in house discussion on the merits of:

A. worthless AA benefits.

B. doomed for failure social welfare as applied in Black community issues.

C. giving credence to the voice of anything else but Democracy.

D. damn the Republican Party, and/or anyone else of credibility, let us give praise and thanks to the sleazy, the criminal, and/or the egregiously incompetent.

E. Tookie Williams deserves both the Nobel Peace Prize and another chance to walk the streets again, but as for any truly innocent and/or law abiding Black people, or otherwise, who seek equity, let them rot in Hell.

F. There is no such thing as criminal activity, sleaze, or greed in the Black community, and if anything like this exists it must all be the fault of racist Caucasians, the Bush Administration, the Republican Party, etc.

Mind you since the 60s the Black community has been under the spell of the Democratic Party, liberal ideology, etc., etc.,

......more or less left to run its own course, directed by incompetent individuals affiliated with the Democratic Party.....

....but still, in spite of this reality, it is surely the fault of racist Caucasians, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, the Bush Administration, President George Bush, etc., etc., that the Black community continues to be the most poverty stricken, void of competent representation, many times criminal, moving very fast in the wrong direction community within the U.S.


Sincerely,

Michael Lofton
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:
...yeah, it just might send a message, to people who might in full knowledge, know that they're going in the same direction Tookie had taken.


It's been proven that the death penalty is not a deterent. It serves no purpose other than revenge.


And if I was a member of that family that he so viciously slaughtered, revenge is exactly what I would want. The difference is that I would want to pull the handle.
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:
...yeah, it just might send a message, to people who might in full knowledge, know that they're going in the same direction Tookie had taken.


It's been proven that the death penalty is not a deterent. It serves no purpose other than revenge.


And if I was a member of that family that he so viciously slaughtered, revenge is exactly what I would want. The difference is that I would want to pull the handle.


Ahhh, JazzDog, an honest man. Everyone tries to cloak their blood lust in terms of "justice" and "what's best for society." But all of that is bs. Anyone supportive of the DP seeks revenge.
Blacksanction--
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksanction:
Revenge is a deterent for the 99% of us law abiding citizens. The DP is for the killers who have no respect for the rest of society (until its their execution time).

Clearly the DP was in place at the time that Tookie did his crimes so he is to blame for his own impending death and no one else just, call it delayed suicide.


Retaliation is the right of "no" man. The fact that we live in 'the belly of the beast' -- a Godless Country 'will never' justify the DP--IMHO!

Blame is a 'deep' cannon and goes much deeper that your loose ramblings...

Fine
It is sad that we think because a white man puts on a black robe that he's above man and closer to God than the rest of us....by getting to determine when life ends for someone....just like the murder..this country is probably the only real industrialized country that does that.....because it is ran by and supported by death loving hicks..from war on down....caging em, shooting em or frying em is the solution...man this country really lacks sophistication in its thinking......
Kevin41
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
It is sad that we think because a white man puts on a black robe that he's above man and closer to God than the rest of us....by getting to determine when life ends for someone....just like the murder..this country is probably the only real industrialized country that does that.....because it is ran by and supported by death loving hicks..from war on down....caging em, shooting em or frying em is the solution...man this country really lacks sophistication in its thinking......


I am off but,

--This is yet another example of the whitewash of Black Antiquity.

To espound further, I mean--this is the white man's method of reintroducing and handfeeding 'us' back what we invented in the first place....!

Blame was mentioned by Blacksanction in a previous post. -- We were originally a strong, spiritual, fun loving people before 1446. The shackles of slavery ended that state. It should not be a surprise or wonder that we have arrived at such a low, barbaric state...we are in essence immulating our captors...who were themselves--thieves, murders out of Europe, correct?



Fine
I find it stunningly brilliant that execution was invented by whites to the detriment of blacks.
To actually believe that prior to slavery that our black ancestors lived in harmony with neighbouring tribes is absolute bullshit and fantasy.
Believe what you want, but the killing of other people has been around for as long as man has been able to put his hands around the neck of his fellow man.
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksanction:
Revenge is a deterent for the 99% of us law abiding citizens.


Come again?

quote:
The DP is for the killers who have no respect for the rest of society (until its their execution time).


The death penalty is not a deterrent. Most People who are willing to kill are not deterred by the death penalty.
    :: A Gallup Poll Finds Decreased Support for Death Penalty When Compared with Life Sentence ::

  1. A May 2004 Gallup Poll found that a growing number of Americans support a sentence of life without parole rather than the death penalty for those convicted of murder. Gallup found that 46% of respondents favor life imprisonment over the death penalty, up from 44% in May 2003. During that same time frame, support for capital punishment as an alternative fell from 53% to 50%. The poll also revealed a growing skepticism that the death penalty deters crime, with 62% of those polled saying that it is not a deterrent. These percentages are a dramatic shift from the responses given to this same question in 1991...

    :: FBI Report Reveals Murder Rate Rise in the South ::

  2. According to the FBI's Preliminary Uniform Crime Report for 2002, the murder rate in the South increased by 2.1% while the murder rate in the Northeast decreased by almost 5%. The South accounts for 82% of all executions since 1976; the Northeast accounts for less than 1%. Read the report. (FBI Preliminary Uniform Crime Report 2002, June 16, 2003).

    :: Capital Punishment and Deterrence: Examining the Effect of Executions on Murder in Texas ::

  3. Authors John Sorenson, Robert Wrinkle, Victoria Brewer, and James Marquart examined executions in Texas between 1984 and 1997. They speculated that if a deterrent effect were to exist, it would be found in Texas because of the high number of death sentences and executions within the state. Using patterns in executions across the study period and the relatively steady rate of murders in Texas, the authors found no evidence of a deterrent effect. The study concluded that the number of executions was unrelated to murder rates in general, and that the number of executions was unrelated to felony rates. (45 Crime and Delinquency 481-93 (1999)).


Proponents of the death penalty should just be honest and admit they are vengeful, short-sighted, overly-emotional people whose opinions about the issue are based on their most base instincts of rage and bloodlust.
Look what else I found:
    Homicide Rates Fall in Canada After Abolition of Death Penalty

    The abolition of the death penalty in Canada in 1976 has not led to increased homicide rates. Statistics Canada reports that the number of homicides in Canada in 2001 (554) was 23% lower than the number of homicides in 1975 (721), the year before the death penalty was abolished. In addition, homicide rates in Canada are generally three times lower than homicide rates in the U.S., which uses the death penalty. For example, according to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, the homicide rate in the U.S. in 1999 was 5.7 per 100,000 population and the rate in Canada was only 1.8. Canada currently sentences those convicted of murder to life sentences with parole eligibility. (Issues Direct.com, 8/4/02).
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksanction:
"Blame is a 'deep' cannon and goes much deeper that your loose ramblings... "

_Fine_________________________________________

I have no idea what you mean by this but I like the phrase none the less tfro

Are you sure it is not canyon as opposed to cannon?

Of course if you were hit by a cannon it would leave a deep hole and make you feel empty inside.


--I meant loose cannon, as stated.

I point my reference -- "Blame is a 'deep' cannon and goes much deeper that your loose ramblings" -- to the exact ["ancient"] brutalities imposed upon us during that peculiar institution called "slavery" that surface ["today"] as 'black-on-black crime.

Mixed with the acidious drippings of racism, ["our hidden psychosis of this insane treatment"] surfaced as our self-hatred to/of one another.

The loose/"deep" cannon is therefore ["our hidden psychosis of this insane treatment"].

Fine
"Proponents of the death penalty should just be honest and admit they are vengeful, short-sighted, overly-emotional people whose opinions about the issue are based on their most base instincts of rage and bloodlust."

So one can assume that if someone walked into your house and slaughered all your love ones for no good reason that you would not want vengence, you wouldn't be emotional and the rage and bloodlust that a normal caring person who has feelings for his loved ones shows would be absence.

So just how cold is your heart?
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:

So one can assume that if someone walked into your house and slaughered all your love ones for no good reason that you would not want vengence, you wouldn't be emotional and the rage and bloodlust that a normal caring person who has feelings for his loved ones shows would be absence.

So just how cold is your heart?


If a fine sista walked past I might have all manner of emotions and impulses toward her. Do I act on them without thinking or do I funnel them through the lens of appropriateness, reasonability, legality, etc.?

Whether I would have the impusle to exact revenge, IMHO, has little to no bearing on whether I rationally believe that that would be the right and best thing to do.
MBM, with all due respect, even with your manners and impulses getting out of hand, hitting on a fine woman where the worst that can happen is that you get turned away and coming home to find that you little slice of heaven is full of blood spattered dead family members is a bit of a stretch.

Having you family slaughtered like sheep I would hope would be an emotional event for everybody unless you don't give a shit about them in the first place, in that case you should probably be a suspect.

And just what is appropriate and reasonable when it comes to someone killing your family and what you want to happen to the person who did the crime. Everybody wants to paint people who want revenge as being irrational where in reality I think that wanting revenge is rational and right. Sorry, for me coming home to an empty house scarred by what has happened and knowing that the monster who did it is still alive, even if he is in prison does not sit well with me.

Like I said, not only would I want it I would be there to see it done.
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
"Proponents of the death penalty should just be honest and admit they are vengeful, short-sighted, overly-emotional people whose opinions about the issue are based on their most base instincts of rage and bloodlust."

So one can assume that if someone walked into your house and slaughered all your love ones for no good reason that you would not want vengence, you wouldn't be emotional and the rage and bloodlust that a normal caring person who has feelings for his loved ones shows would be absence.

So just how cold is your heart?


My heart isn't COLD at all. As a human being, I would want revenge for my loved ones if such a henious crime took their lives. Unfortunately, I am a christian and I should forgive those who tresspass against me. AND, I would still have a hard time forgiving.

What about the perpetrator? We are all governed by the laws of society. There are consequences if we break society law. Unfortunately, the law at the time of the crime is death.

I usually cringe when I get jury duty notice because I don't want to be on a death penalty case. Hence, I would then have to decide if I was for or against the death penalty.
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
"Proponents of the death penalty should just be honest and admit they are vengeful, short-sighted, overly-emotional people whose opinions about the issue are based on their most base instincts of rage and bloodlust."

So one can assume that if someone walked into your house and slaughered all your love ones for no good reason that you would not want vengence, you wouldn't be emotional and the rage and bloodlust that a normal caring person who has feelings for his loved ones shows would be absence.

So just how cold is your heart?


Hypothetically--my first level reactionary would be internal: sorrow-hurt-remorse and then anger.

Second level would be external: retribution--life sentence for wrongdoer, period.

Fine
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
Like I said, not only would I want it I would be there to see it done.


See, that? That right up there... that's what I'm talking about. Vengeful. Bloodlust. And, I love you man, my heart is not cold. *snicker*

But, really... look at what you said. You would relish the opportunity to watch someone die, because your own relatives have died by their hand. That is revenge. That is an overly-emotional response that lets your primitive instincts dictate your behavior.
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
Like I said, not only would I want it I would be there to see it done.


See, that? That right up there... that's what I'm talking about. Vengeful. Bloodlust. And, I love you man, my heart is not cold. *snicker*

But, really... look at what you said. You would relish the opportunity to watch someone die, because your own relatives have died by their hand. That is revenge. That is an overly-emotional response that lets your primitive instincts dictate your behavior.


Of course its revenge, I didn't said this had anything to do with justice, justice would be getting it done quickly so they don't get to hang around for 10-15 years waiting, convicted beyond all reasonable doubt, get 120 days to appeal to make sure everything was done right and hey hey goodbye. Justice would be making sure that they died in agony just like the victims.

I still don't understand how you can fault someone for being overly emotional when their family is slaughtered, being over emotionally is if the guy steals your car and you want him put to death, killing a family of four as this person did qualifies as a emotional event and any response to that is expected and reasonably in my book.

As for relishing the opportunity to watch the person who slaughtered my family die, absolutely.
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
Of course its revenge, I didn't said this had anything to do with justice, justice would be getting it done quickly so they don't get to hang around for 10-15 years waiting, convicted beyond all reasonable doubt, get 120 days to appeal to make sure everything was done right and hey hey goodbye. Justice would be making sure that they died in agony just like the victims.

I still don't understand how you can fault someone for being overly emotional when their family is slaughtered, being over emotionally is if the guy steals your car and you want him put to death, killing a family of four as this person did qualifies as a emotional event and any response to that is expected and reasonably in my book.

As for relishing the opportunity to watch the person who slaughtered my family die, absolutely.


Then why did you take exception of my characterization of proponents of the death penalty? You seem quite comfortable being vengeful and overly-emotional about this specific issue.
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksanction:
I find it stunningly brilliant that execution was invented by whites to the detriment of blacks.
To actually believe that prior to slavery that our black ancestors lived in harmony with neighbouring tribes is absolute bullshit and fantasy.
Believe what you want, but the killing of other people has been around for as long as man has been able to put his hands around the neck of his fellow man.


I know we didn't dance around the fire with spears and wake up singing e'ery day, but I can imagine it was ahellofalot better than waking up in the "belly of the beast."

Fine
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-111705tookie_lat,0...ll=la-home-headlines
L.A. Officers Urge 'No Mercy' for Tookie Williams
By Henry Weinstein
Times Staff Writer

2:53 PM PST, November 17, 2005


Los Angeles' top law enforcement officers today urged Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger to have no mercy for Stanley Tookie Williams, the gang co-founder convicted of four murders who is to be executed Dec. 13.

Williams is a "coldblooded killer" who has "left his mark forever on our society by co-founding one of the most vicious, brutal gangs in existence, the Crips," according to the statement urging Schwarzenegger to deny clemency.

The letter was from Los Angeles County Dist. Atty. Steve Cooley, Los Angeles Police Chief William Bratton and Los Angeles County Sheriff Lee Baca.

"Williams now seeks mercy, the very mercy he so callously denied" his four victims, according to the document, designed to counter Williams' clemency petition submitted this month.

"Despite the overwhelming nature of the evidence against him, and despite the nonexistence of any credible defense, Stanley Williams steadfastly refused to take any responsibility for the brutal, destructive and murderous acts he committed," according to the statement. "Without such responsibility, there can be no redemption, there can be no atonement, and there should be no mercy."

In addition, Cooley sent a letter saying that since Williams founded the Crips, the gang "has been responsible for literally thousands of murders in Los Angeles County alone."

Baca and Bratton also sent letters urging Schwarzenegger to show no mercy for Williams, now 51, who publicly renounced gang life nearly a decade ago. He has written several books urging youths to avoid joining gangs, a point cited frequently by those urging clemency, including a number of religious leaders and some elected officials.

Lawyers have filed a last-ditch attempt to save Williams, claiming that the police investigation was inadequate into the Feb. 28, 1979 slayings.

James Garrett, his wife, Esther, and a man named Samuel Coleman testified that Williams told them he had committed the murders. Years later, Coleman filed a sworn declaration saying that he was severely beaten by police and that he was offered immunity in exchange for testifying against Williams. The Garretts were facing criminal charges at the time and later received probation on those charges.

Williams was convicted of the shootings of Albert Owens, who was killed in a robbery of a 7-Eleven store on Feb. 27, 1979, and of motel owners Yen-I Yang and Thsai-Shaic Yang and their daughter, Yee Chen Lin, at the Brookhaven Motel on South Vermont Avenue 12 days later.

No physical evidence linked Williams to Owens' murder. The key witness against Williams was Alfred Coward, who testified that he, Williams and two other men went to the store to rob it and that Williams shot Owens. Coward testified under a grant of immunity from prosecution. He is now in prison in Canada for killing a man during a robbery.
http://www.blackamericaweb.com/site.aspx/bawnews/tookie1118
Despite Acclaim, ˜Tookie' Williams' Redemption Doubted by Jail Officials
Date: Thursday, November 17, 2005
By: Kim Curtis, Associated Press

SAN QUENTIN, Calif. (AP) - As murderer and Crips co-founder Stanley "Tookie" Williams tries to stave off execution next month, California prison officials have launched an unusual counterattack against the notion that he has redeemed himself behind bars.

The Corrections Department earlier this month posted a press release on its Web site about the upcoming execution, detailing Williams' crimes and asserting that he has been a gang leader while on death row at San Quentin Prison.

San Quentin spokesman Vernell Crittendon, speaking on behalf of the department, went further in an interview last week, saying he suspects Williams is orchestrating gangland crimes from his cell.

"I just don't know that his heart is changed," Crittendon said.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Everybody wants to paint people who want revenge as being irrational where in reality I think that wanting revenge is rational and right.
JazzDog, being "overly emotional" by definition is irrational.


The point is not that being overly emotional is irrational, the point is what makes wanting revenge for a hiderous crime "overly emotional". There is nothing overly emotional about believeing that when someone committs a henious crime they should paid the ultimate price as long as his/her guilt is clearly established.

Is someone who is aganist capital punishment just as overly emotional or does it only applied to people who support capital punishment, I mean those folks who will surely be outside the prison demostrating, would you consider them overly emotional about the subject or are they consider to be calm and collective in their emotions and through process.
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
The point is not that being overly emotional is irrational, the point is what makes wanting revenge for a hiderous crime "overly emotional".


When your behavior is ruled by your emotions, that is being overly-emotional. I stated in a previous post that wanting revenge is normal, but holding onto those vengeful feelings until you get satisfaction is another.

quote:
There is nothing overly emotional about believeing that when someone committs a henious crime they should paid the ultimate price as long as his/her guilt is clearly established.


When the "ultimate price" is another murder sanctioned by the state, that is overly emotional.

quote:
Is someone who is aganist capital punishment just as overly emotional or does it only applied to people who support capital punishment, I mean those folks who will surely be outside the prison demostrating, would you consider them overly emotional about the subject or are they consider to be calm and collective in their emotions and through process.


Among activists who have a pet cause, surely there are the fanatics. But the focus here is on individuals whose family members have been victims. A better comparison would be families of victims who actively seek the death penalty versus those who come out against it.

My opinion is that they are not. Those who actively seek the death penalty, and especially those who want to be there for the execution, are run ragged by their emotions. A television show followed a family who wanted to be there when the switch was flipped and they were just sad. Not because their loved one was dead, they were sad because their raison de'tre for all those years was to see the perpetrator executed. After it was over, members of the family said they felt no real satisfaction because the death was "too easy."

Those who come out against the death penalty for the perpetrators of crimes against their family members are, by contrast, serene. Their lives seem more full and they are able to understand what revenge would really mean for them on an emotional level. In the scheme of things, not much. Their loved ones are still dead and another death won't change that.

Life w/out parole ensures they are punished for the rest of their life, and allows for the possibility for rehabilitation. And, their rehabilitation may turn them into a real live deterrent for someone else. (Note: refer to the death penalty not being a deterrent posts)
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
The point is not that being overly emotional is irrational, the point is what makes wanting revenge for a hiderous crime "overly emotional". There is nothing overly emotional about believeing that when someone committs a henious crime they should paid the ultimate price as long as his/her guilt is clearly established.

Is someone who is aganist capital punishment just as overly emotional or does it only applied to people who support capital punishment, I mean those folks who will surely be outside the prison demostrating, would you consider them overly emotional about the subject or are they consider to be calm and collective in their emotions and through process.


tfro
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
Yes, It should be noted that no one said he didn't do the crimes, the whole argument for him not being excuted is the idea that he is a changed man who has atoned for his crimes though his writings.


Great Answer! On Topic!

Yes, he has atoned for his crimes thorough his writings, but should remain in jail rather than be executed....

Fine
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/11/21/MNGUFFRRP11.DTL

Governor dreading decision on life or death
Without clemency, Williams' execution is just weeks away

Sacramento -- It was 1976, according to Stanley Tookie Williams, when he met a young Austrian bodybuilder along the Venice Beach boardwalk, then the epicenter of the Southern California muscle culture.

Williams, who was a hard-bodied weight lifter as well as a notorious gang member, recounted the brief encounter in a book published last year: Arnold Schwarzenegger was so impressed with Williams' physique, he noted that Williams' biceps were as big as thighs.

Nearly 30 years later, the two men are again crossing paths.

With the world watching, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger must decide in the next few weeks whether Williams will live or die.

Williams, 51, the co-founder of the Crips gang and a four-time murderer who has become an anti-gang crusader and Nobel Peace Prize nominee, is scheduled to be executed at San Quentin State Prison on Dec. 13.

With court appeals nearly exhausted, Williams has pointed to the children's books and gang-peace initiatives he has produced from behind prison walls as proof he is a reformed man and worthy of clemency. Sunday was the last day of a weeklong "Tookie Williams Teach-in" that included a rally outside the gates of San Quentin on Saturday featuring the rapper Snoop Dogg.

Prosecutors argue that a man responsible for four shotgun murders who was involved in nearly a dozen violent incidents in his first decade in prison -- before he changed his ways -- deserves the sentence a jury recommended.

After a year of plummeting popularity and squabbles with Democrats and labor unions over sometimes-arcane ideas about ways to change government, Schwarzenegger now turns to a more basic and far more gut-wrenching task.

He must contemplate crime and punishment, redemption and race. Williams is asking that Schwarzenegger buck a strong national trend that has turned clemency based on atonement into a political third rail.

Just a few weeks after a special election that marked the low point of Schwarzenegger's tenure as governor, he is faced with a decision he admitted this week that he dreads.

"I know he will agonize over this," said state Sen. Gloria Romero, D-Los Angeles, who has worked with Schwarzenegger on prison reform and is advocating clemency for Williams, with whom she met earlier this month. "I know this governor believes in redemption. He has approached crime and punishment with a little more thought than just 'hang 'em high.' The question is whether he will take the political risk."

Clemency is a unique and absolute power bestowed upon the executive branch; governors and presidents have virtually unchecked authority to overturn a death sentence or even set someone free. Missouri Gov. Mel Carnahan commuted a death sentence in his state in 1999, he said, because Pope John Paul II asked him to.

"It's almost a divine power," noted Austin Sarat, a professor of law and political science at Amherst College in Massachusetts and author of a book on clemency called "Mercy on Trial: What It Means to Stop an Execution."

Clemency has become extremely rare. Sarat noted that aside from the mass Death Row commutation extended by Illinois Gov. George Ryan in 2003, there had been only a dozen acts of clemency in the last decade; there were 143 such acts during the 1960s.

Ronald Reagan was the last California governor to commute a death sentence, in 1967.

Recent governors around the country have virtually abandoned the idea of "mercy-based clemency," as Sarat describes it: the idea that a condemned inmate has redeemed himself after conviction.

"There's simply no political gain in it," Sarat said. "If you grant someone clemency, who's happy? The person on death row, his family; but there's usually a whole lot more people who are unhappy."

Politicians as diverse in philosophy as President Bush and former President Bill Clinton said as governors they would not consider clemency unless there was evidence of innocence or an unfair trial.

Bush famously refused to consider pickax murderer Karla Faye Tucker's conversion to Christianity in prison, and she was executed in Texas in 1998.

Williams has never admitted guilt for the crimes he was convicted of: the murders of Albert Owens, Yen-I Yang, Tsai-Shai Yang and Yee-Chen Lin during two separate robberies in 1979. His petition for clemency briefly alleges that evidence against Williams was circumstantial and that there was racial bias against Williams, who is black, in the convening of an all-white jury.

Instead, the bulk of Williams' plea making has been in the last dozen years. Included in the petition for clemency are Williams' books, his Nobel Peace Prize nomination letter, dozens of e-mails from kids, school officials and others praising his work, even a movie made about him that starred Oscar-winning actor Jamie Foxx.

"The question here is if you don't give clemency based on his personal redemption, based on the thousands of people he has touched, who would you give it to?" asked Jonathan Harris, a New York-based lawyer working for Williams.

Schwarzenegger has already denied clemency requests from two condemned inmates, and one of them, Donald Beardslee, was executed in January. But the governor's feelings about the death penalty are not clear-cut.

In an interview with The Chronicle's editorial board just before the Beardslee execution, Schwarzenegger acknowledged that he came from a country where capital punishment is anathema and suggested he still wrestled with the issue, which he characterized as "heavy stuff."

"I grew up with the mentality that this is an absolute no-no," he said. "And so you're dealing with that, which is very odd. I mean, very few people have that chance to live in a body with kind of two brains. Kind of like the Austrian brain and the American brain. ... They're fighting with each other all the time, you know, where I can argue with myself about those things."

That is a much less black-and-white opinion of the death penalty than many California politicians running for statewide office would admit. And without much fanfare, Schwarzenegger has shown significant differences on crime and punishment policies from the three governors who came before him.

He added the word "rehabilitation" to the name of the state's prison system, and he has quietly allowed the parole of 114 California inmates charged with violent crimes, including 23 people convicted of first-degree murder.

That record stands in stark contrast to former Democratic Gov. Gray Davis, who granted parole to only five inmates in his five years in office and publicly stated he did not believe that murderers deserved a second chance.

Williams' attorneys believe they may have the right governor to plead their case for a clemency based on good works.

"We know Gov. Schwarzenegger believes in rehabilitation," Harris said.

Legal experts who are familiar with Schwarzenegger's two previous decisions on clemency, however, suggest Williams has an uphill battle.

In denying clemency to Beardslee, who confessed to killing two people, and to Kevin Cooper, who killed a family of four after escaping from prison, Schwarzenegger focused extensively on the facts of the crimes and was unimpressed with a religious conversion Cooper experienced in prison, noted David LaBahn, executive director of the California District Attorneys Association.

LaBahn said that Williams' refusal to apologize for the crimes he was convicted of -- Williams maintains his innocence -- could weigh heavily on Schwarzenegger.

"He (Williams) has apologized for the gang lifestyle, but never directly for the crime and to the victims' families," said LaBahn, who has written to Schwarzenegger in opposition to clemency for Williams.

Political experts also suggest clemency for Williams would be a stunner. Noting that 68 percent of Californians supported the death penalty in a March 2004 Field Poll, Mark DiCamillo, director of the poll, suggested that clemency "would be a big political risk for a governor probably not that interested in taking a risk right now."

"He's someone who needs to be moving toward the middle right now, and this is a pretty divisive issue," DiCamillo said.

Schwarzenegger could begin reviewing the case as early as today, and an aide said Andrea Hoch, the governor's new legal affairs secretary, will lead the review.

"This administration takes clemency very seriously," said Rob Stutzman, Schwarzenegger's communications director. "The governor approaches this case with no predisposed notions one way or the other."

Schwarzenegger, who was in China last week, was asked by California reporters there whether he remembered meeting Williams on Venice Beach. The governor noted that "millions of people have said they worked out with me," before going on to say he was preparing to review Williams' case.

"I dread that ... but it's part of the job," he said.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stanley Tookie Williams case
Conviction: Williams, 51, a co-founder of the Crips gang in Los Angeles, was found guilty in 1981 and sentenced to death for murdering a convenience store clerk in Whittier (Los Angeles County) and two motel owners and their daughter during robberies in 1979. Williams says he is innocent. His final appeal, to the U.S. Supreme Court, was denied in October.

Execution date: Dec. 13

What's next: Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger could begin considering clemency for Williams as early as today. An aide said Andrea Hoch, the governor's new legal affairs secretary, will lead the review.
Repay no one evil for evil. . . . never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath . . .

Vengeance is mine, I will repay . . .

Do not say, "I will do to him as he has done to me; I will pay the man back for what he has done."

But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other . . .

See that none of you repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to all.

Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, . . .
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
Repay no one evil for evil. . . . never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath . . .

Vengeance is mine, I will repay . . .

Do not say, "I will do to him as he has done to me; I will pay the man back for what he has done."

But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other . . .

See that none of you repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to all.

Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, . . .


And the church said, "AMEN."
....and Tookie Williams is very far from being any role model for Black people. I was in Los Angeles in 1971, when the Crips began.

......Heck, Black men and women were held up at gun point, shot, stabbed, maimed, and/or killed by members of the Crips, while attending a concert at the Hollywood Bowl, etc...

...held up, shot, stabbed, maimed, and/or killed for having the gall to wear Black leather jackets, shoes, and/or jewelry that they owned.

There won't be any tears shed, and sympathy given, for the likes of any Tookie Williams, and/or any of his associates, who have been responsible for the maiming, and killing of many Black people, many of whom have had nothing to do with any gang faction, and did not infringe upon the rights of Tookie Williams, and/or any of his associates.

Mind you, Tookie Williams is not facing execution for the many Black people he and/or his comrads have maimed or killed over the years, but rather the death of a Caucasian, and Korean family.
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Originally posted by Fine:
and...

The non-church members sitting up in the rafters say, Amen-Ra!

Fine


Peace to the sun people kissed by Ra!


*******************

"Lights out convict" by Isome

.........Isome meet a convict, convict meet Isome.

******************
....and Isome, make yourself useful. Enclosed in this link is a site, to where you may wish to seek proof as to whether a Michael Lofton, has any criminal record that sticks......

......A bright future exists for those who play it straight....

......vs. those who don't

...our White Collar criminals......Reverend Sleazy, Our own misfit leaders,

......our white collar criminal lawyers, .......

.....and/or our hard core criminal, in a Tookie Williams or otherwise.
Last edited {1}
Top News
Friday, Nov. 25, 2005
Schwarzenegger Mulls Clemency for Williams



SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger said Friday that he would consider granting clemency to Crips co-founder and convicted murderer Stanley Tookie Williams.

After a private hearing with Williams' lawyers at his Sacramento office, Schwarzenegger said he would meet again on Dec. 8 with the lawyers, Los Angeles County prosecutors and others involved.

As governor, he has the authority to commute a death sentence to life without parole. He is not legally obligated to hold a public or private hearing. Schwarzenegger decides clemency requests on a ``case-by-case basis,'' said his spokeswoman, Margita Thompson.

Williams, 51, faces death by lethal injection on Dec. 13 for the 1979 slayings of four people - a Whittier convenience store clerk and three people at a Pico Rivera motel a few days later. He maintains his innocence and has asked the California Supreme Court to reopen his case, alleging shoddy forensics wrongly connected him to three of the murders.

The Supreme Court has not ruled on his petition.

Los Angeles County prosecutors and victims' relatives have demanded his execution.
"Williams, 51, faces death by lethal injection on Dec. 13 for the 1979 slayings of four people - a Whittier convenience store clerk and three people at a Pico Rivera motel a few days later. He maintains his innocence and has asked the California Supreme Court to reopen his case, alleging shoddy forensics wrongly connected him to three of four the murders." from the article

So Tookie admits to being responsible for at least one of the murders. Considering the circumstances, one admitted murder would be enough for Tookie's execution to take place. It is certain though, that Tookie Williams is responsible for multiple murders of many individuals, thus slim chance exists where California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger will excuse Tookie Williams for his actions.
Everything I have read says that he denies having committed any of the murders.

Both Jazzdog (whom I respect) and Michael (who's credibility I find questionable) seem to say that his quilt is not in question. I haven't been able to find anybody but the prosecutors and the victim's families who are so certain he committed those murders. Is there something I've missed??

It seems the only thing he doesn't deny is being the founder/a member of the Crips. Not to say that that's an admirable calling ... but is it really a reason for execution?? Confused

There are far too many innocent people languishing in prison and on death row to believe that he can't be one of them ... at least as far as the crimes for which he was convicted go. Who's to say he's not telling the truth?
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Everything I have read says that he denies having committed any of the murders.

Both Jazzdog (whom I respect) and Michael (who's credibility I find questionable) seem to say that his quilt is not in question. I haven't been able to find anybody but the prosecutors and the victim's families who are so certain he committed those murders. Is there something I've missed??

It seems the only thing he doesn't deny is being the founder/a member of the Crips. Not to say that that's an admirable calling ... but is it really a reason for execution?? Confused

There are far too many innocent people languishing in prison and on death row to believe that he can't be one of them ... at least as far as the crimes for which he was convicted go. Who's to say he's not telling the truth?


"Lights out convict" by Isome

.........Isome meet a convict, convict meet Isome.

***********************

........Isome meet a convict who will more than likely be executed, and the convict to be executed meet Isome.

....more likely there are members on this board whose credibility stinks. Michael Lofton's credibility, good character, etc., is in very good standing....

Indeed, there are innocent men and women on death row, to which the advent of DNA technology has been used as supportive evidence to free the truly innocent, and to convict the truly criminal.

Although innocent men and women have served time, and continue to serve time, Michael Lofton, and/or other Lofton family members, being among the numerous law abiding and truly innocent individuals to have served time for criminal acts not committed, Tookie Williams is very removed from being among the truly innocent!

...and Tookie Williams would not be considered a Geronimo Pratt in any regard...., Geronimo Pratt being among the truly innocent, and also being an honorably discharged highly decorated with honors Vietnam War combat Veteran.....

....and Tookie Williams being as criminal as they come!
Last edited {1}
Whatever reason you keep mentioning my screen name in your posts, even when I don't address you or anything you've said, is beyond the pale.

If you don't like being called a convict, which you admit that you are, then you need to cut it out. Do you enjoy constant friction and ill will? If you do, I can help you with that... I will add to my signature line your frequent bitching and moaning about being in jail.

No one knows that you were wrongfully held, you haven't posted any clemency papers or the like. So, as far as we know you're just a former (or current) criminal who can't accept responsibility for what you've done.

You admitted to being incarcerated, so should I reference it in my sig line it will not only be accurate, but it will be helping you since you repeat it every flippin' day for some reason. If that floats your boat, I'm willing to help you.

If not, then stop with the psycho shit by mentioning my screen name every time you post.
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Originally posted by Fine:
?


That wasn't to you... of course! Feel free to chastise me with the off-topic sign. Wink


LOL-absolutely not!

I just knew your content was heated and tbought, Wow someone has set her off.

I find your topics eduational and your comments strong.

Stick to your guns as I do. You are fine in my book!

Fine
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
Whatever reason you keep mentioning my screen name in your posts, even when I don't address you or anything you've said, is beyond the pale.

If you don't like being called a convict, which you admit that you are, then you need to cut it out. Do you enjoy constant friction and ill will? If you do, I can help you with that... I will add to my signature line your frequent bitching and moaning about being in jail.

No one knows that you were wrongfully held, you haven't posted any clemency papers or the like. So, as far as we know you're just a former (or current) criminal who can't accept responsibility for what you've done.

You admitted to being incarcerated, so should I reference it in my sig line it will not only be accurate, but it will be helping you since you repeat it every flippin' day for some reason. If that floats your boat, I'm willing to help you.

If not, then stop with the psycho shit by mentioning my screen name every time you post.


....more on the truly sleazy, as it relates to no good Judge Kevin Ross, another university educated misfit from the Black community!

...below is a link that contains material addressed to me, by at least one member of this message board, material that I had to respond to, rather than remain silent, and let falsehoods stand as being factual.

"Lights out convict" by Isome

.........Isome meet a convict, convict meet Isome.

Well Isome, and/or anyone else of similar erroneous expression, it matters not how many times you reference it because my record is clean, meaning any connection, association, etc., to which you choose to brand me as being a convict, criminal, an Uncle Tom, You are not Black, you belong in a mental institution, etc.,.......

If you didn't want this material coming your direction, you should have used better judgment in first place, because the unwarranted character assassination of another will have repercussions.


.....now back to the topic, the topic being slim chance that any Tookie Williams will escape execution.institution, etc., is meaningless, unsubstantiated, etc.

******************************

Gov. to Consider Clemency for Killer

By Eric Malnic, Times Staff Writer

November 26, 2005

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger will hold a private hearing at his Sacramento office Dec. 8 to consider whether to grant clemency to convicted murderer Stanley Tookie Williams, co-founder of the Crips street gang.

Margita Thompson, the governor's press secretary, said Schwarzenegger's decision to hold the private meeting with lawyers representing Williams and the families of his victims did not indicate which way he was leaning on whether to commute Williams' sentence from death to life in prison without possibility of parole.

"The governor reviewed the material in the case this week," Thompson said late Friday. "He decided the best route is a private clemency hearing, so he can hear directly from counsel."

Prosecutors are urging that Williams be executed by lethal injection as scheduled on Dec. 13 for the killings of four people during robberies in 1979. Williams' lawyers say he should be granted clemency because of his work as an anti-gang activist during his incarceration on death row.

Last weekend, a peaceful multiracial crowd including religious leaders and rapper Snoop Dogg jammed a street outside San Quentin Prison to urge that Williams' life be spared. His lawyers have also submitted what they said were signatures of 32,000 people supporting Williams' petition for clemency.

Williams, 51, has denied he committed the murders and has asked the California Supreme Court to reopen his case, contending that he was wrongly tied to the crimes through shoddy forensics. The court has not ruled on his petition.

The governor decides clemency requests on a case-by-case basis and is not required to hold either public or private hearings on an inmate's request, Thompson said.

She said that after thorough study of the materials presented to him, the governor rejected the only two previous requests he had received from death row inmates seeking clemency.

Last year, Schwarzenegger denied a hearing of any kind for convicted murderer Kevin Cooper. But Cooper's execution was later stayed by a federal appeals court.

In January, the governor referred the clemency request of murderer Donald Beardslee to the California Board of Parole Hearings and decided against clemency on the recommendation of the board.

Thompson said that under state law, Beardslee's case had to be referred to a public hearing by the board because Beardslee had been convicted of felonies twice previously.

Williams had been convicted of a felony once previously, so the governor had the option of a private hearing, a public hearing or no hearing at all, Thompson said. She said he decided that a private hearing was most appropriate.

On Wednesday, Williams' attorneys asked the state Supreme Court to grant them access to a broad array of trial evidence in an effort to show that Williams' conviction in the four murders had been unconstitutional.

"Discovery must be granted to avoid an egregious miscarriage of justice," Pasadena attorney Verna Wafeld wrote in her request.

She is seeking information under a 2003 California law enacted in the aftermath of the Los Angeles Police Department's Rampart corruption scandal. She said she was looking for ballistic and crime scene evidence, witness records and medical evidence that might show that Williams was forcibly drugged while in jail awaiting trial.

In response to an earlier defense motion, Deputy Atty. Gen. Lisa J. Brault said Williams had been provided with appropriate material through the court discovery process.

Prosecutors are required to turn over anything that might help a defendant prove his innocence.

Copyright 2005 Los Angeles Times

***************************

"His lawyers have also submitted what they said were signatures of 32,000 people supporting Williams' petition for clemency."

......meaning an overwhelming majority of the people of the State of California, the City of Los Angeles, the County of Los Angeles, South Central Los Angeles, are against clemency for Tookie Williams. The support of 32,000 people, out of millions, is not a sign of strong support from the actual residents of the State of California, a reality that would also play a strong factor in Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's decision of granting or not granting clemency to Tookie Williams.

"As of the census of 2000, there are 9,519,338 people, 3,133,774 households, and 2,137,233 families residing in the county. The population density is 905/km² (2,344/mi²). There are 3,270,909 housing units at an average density of 311/km² (806/mi²). The racial makeup of the county is 48.71% White (31.1% is non-Hispanic White), 9.78% African American, 0.81% Native American, 11.95% Asian, 0.28% Pacific Islander, 23.53% from other races, and 4.94% from two or more races. 44.56% of the total population is of Hispanic or Latino origin, regardless of race.

Los Angeles is one of the few counties in the USA where Latinos are a plurality, and will soon be a majority."


*********************
Jackson enters ˜Tookie' Williams' debate
Staff and Wire Reports
LOS ANGELES "” The Rev. Jesse Jackson is the latest public figure to urge Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger to spare the life of death row inmate Stanley "Tookie" Williams.

Jackson met with Williams "” a co-founder of the notorious Los Angeles Crips street gang who is due to be executed on Dec. 13 "” in his San Quentin jail cell Monday.

Williams, who was found guilty of murdering four people in two separate robberies in 1979, has become a cause célèbre after renouncing his violent past and penning a series of books aimed at dissuading youth from gang and drug culture. His work and message of redemption have led to multiple nominations for the Nobel Peace Prize.

"Today I met with Tookie Williams, a man who is scheduled to be killed 17 days from today," said Jackson in a statement following the meeting. "We had a prayer. At the conclusion of our one-and-a-half-hour visit I told him ˜we are going to fight for you and we are going to win.'"

Jackson said he has requested a meeting with Schwarzenegger, and will "urge him to grant clemency and commute Tookie Williams' sentence to life in prison without the possibility of parole."

"In the days to come we will bear witness to our criminal justice system at its lowest point," Jackson said. "We must kill the idea of killing as a remedy to societal problems and shortcomings. We do not condone ... Williams' past actions. However, the streets of California will be no safer on Dec. 14 should he be executed. In fact, there is reason to believe that they will be even less safe as those he would have reached in his ongoing efforts to stop children from joining gang life will never hear his message."


*********************

Even if limited to 11% of the total Black population of Los Angeles alone, the showing of support for clemency by even the Black community is extremely low. Mind you, ambulance chasing sleazy no good Reverend Jesse Jackson, the misguided members of the entertainment community, and/or others who are not residents of the State of California would have very little influence on Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's decision, and/or authority to govern. It is certain, that be it the Governnor or the People of the State of California, outsiders will have little influence over how best to govern, or set policy within the State of California, and the words of misguided wisdom to infer that Tookie Williams is behind bars because he is innocent, from any outsider, will have little influence over Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, California law abiding residents, and/or law abiding California residents victimized by the criminal actions of Tookie Williams, the Crips, the Bloods, MS13, etc., etc.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

Attachments

Last edited {1}
Watts is now a safer place for all to live. The Gang community will not take precedence over law abiding People of the State of California.

Lawmakers give thanks for Watts renewal

LOS ANGELES "” The City Council paid tribute Tuesday to the multi-agency task force which turned life around for residents in a crime-infested, gang-controlled triangular patch of Watts.

Councilwoman Janice Hahn led the council's salute to the City Attorney's Office, Police Department and the Department of Building and Safety for their four-year battle to restore livable conditions to the five-block area bounded by Lou Dillon and 110th streets and Santa Ana Boulevard.

In what was called the Lou Dillon Project, the agencies took on the lawless neighborhood in August 2001. At that time, it was a haven for drug dealers and gang members and very young children were seen running through the streets at all hours.

"It was a challenging location for police to work," said Kevin Gilligan, assistant supervising deputy city attorney, who oversaw the project. Gang members reportedly threw rocks and other projectiles at police who entered the area. "It has an L-shaped intersection and they could sit in the intersection and see everybody coming in."

For their own safety, officers did not patrol the area in single cars, and the triangle generated the greatest number of "officer needs help" calls in the LAPD's South Bureau.

Fearing the crime that surrounded them, residents fled the Lou Dillon triangle in droves and by the time the city took action, more than 60 percent of the properties there were vacant.

"The gang members completely destroyed the vacant houses," Gilligan said. "They not only covered them with graffiti, they removed all the fixtures, including the plumbing and electrical works."

Following several months of planning, the city launched a sunrise sweep and took control of the neighborhood in one day in mid-August 2001. The LAPD and their undercover narcotics officers, working with City Attorney Rocky Delgadillo's Nuisance Abatement and Neighborhood Prosecutor programs and building and safety officials, served search warrants at 5 a.m., followed two hours later with parole and probation checks and an hour after that, flooded the area with city services.

"We kept the operation so secretive, that we didn't even tell the city services where they were going," Gilligan said. City service providers spent the rest of the day conducting building and safety inspections, cleaning lots, removing graffiti, cleaning streets and street signs.

Building and Safety officials secured all the vacant houses and hearings were held with the owners as to the disposition of their abandoned property.

As was noted at Tuesday's council tribute, law and order has been fully restored to the Lou Dillon triangle and the residents have returned. The vacant lots have been purchased by new owners.

Three new homes have been built on those vacant lots and two more are under construction. A total of 21 properties have been rehabilitated, two have been demolished and one is slated to be razed.

Police officials said violent crime in the area has dropped 37.5 percent. "But we feel that is an under-representation of the level of crime that occurred in that area," Gilligan said. "We heard that a large number of crimes went unreported four years ago because the residents were too afraid to tell," he added.

"This is a great success story of city employees working together to return a neighborhood to the people that live there," said Councilwoman Hahn, who represents the area. "Today, thanks to the dedication of our Deputy City Attorney Kevin Gilligan, our Building and Safety inspectors and our LAPD Southeast Division officers, it is a new neighborhood." by Betty Pleasant, Contributing Editor, The Los Angeles Wave, November 24, 2005.

***************************

Legal Tool of Law Enforcement to Curb Gang Violence, is serious business, and this Bill is certain to be passed by Congress!

Although the Democratic Party may be against this they forget the people rule, and one of the primary functions of sworn in and mandated by law duties of all elected officials is to serve the people, especially as it relates to law abiding individuals, and/or not the criminal!

It is certain, that be it the Governor or the People of the State of California, outsiders will have little influence over how best to govern, or set policy within the State of California, and the words of misguided wisdom to infer that Tookie Williams is behind bars because he is innocent, from any outsider, will have little influence over Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, California law abiding residents, and/or law abiding California residents victimized by the criminal actions of Tookie Williams, the Crips, the Bloods, MS13, etc., etc.
Last edited {1}
quote:
wow babylon takes back a neighbourhood from the gangs.
Damn those cops always picking on the gangs!

imagine those corrupt cops actually caring about protecting citizens from gangs.

Wow sure wish Tookie was out on the street- NOT!!


Blacksanction,

....and the sad thing is that it has taken the demographic shift of a formerly predominately Black community, as it relates to South Central Los Angeles, and Compton, to a now predominately Hispanic community for any major change to take place.

During the period that these areas were predominately Black, in addition to gang violence that made these areas very unsafe, and drove the law abiding away, many of the so called Black elected leaders of Compton, and South Central Los Angeles, have been too busy stealing, playing games, misusing their position of influence, and some of them have been criminally indicted and are now convicted felons. In addition, the so-called Black middleclass have kept these misfits in elected office. By and large, the largest voting block in Compton and South Central Los Angeles have been Black people. Although Hispanics outnumber Black people, many are not yet citizens, and the majority of Hispanics in Compton, and South Central Los Angeles do not have the right to vote, which has made it possible for the unintelligent voters from the Black community to promote misfits to the position of elected representative.

It has taken demographic changes for reform to take place, to which Compton and South Central Los Angeles, are now safer than either of these two communities have been for well over twenty years. Businesses that left this area after the riot of 1965, and 1992, are now returning more so than ever. It is a given, that money and business development know no color line, in that businesses thrive best when the environment is conducive to the growth and expansion of the business. A lawless, high crime area, would drive business insurance costs through the roof, to which the only remaining businesses would be liquor stores, money laundering businesses, drug dealing businesses, fencing of stolen property rings, car jacking rings, mortuary businesses, barber shops, no good preachers using the Church as a means of bleeding the Black community of assets, auto chop shops, swap meets selling counterfeit merchandise, Nix Check cashing, corrupt Ugly Duckling Auto Sales, and/or other least desirable businesses.
Last edited {1}
Gee, Michael ...

I was going to ask you how it felt to actually have to post something good about the Black community. I mean, I would have thought that it would have been physically painful to you in some way.

But now I see that you only posted it because it is concerning a community that is predominantly Hispanic!! Eek Eek

I should have known it was too good to be true. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Gee, Michael ...

I was going to ask you how it felt to actually have to post something good about the Black community. I mean, I would have thought that it would have been physically painful to you in some way.

But now I see that you only posted it because it is concerning a community that is predominantly Hispanic!! Eek Eek

I should have known it was too good to be true. Roll Eyes


Can't see it any other way. The truth is what has driven many law abiding Black people away. Heck, I had a co-worker who lived in the heart of Watts, who stated that while at work, his own Black neighbors stole his furniture, appliances, stereo equipment, etc., etc. After multiple incidents of losing his valuable property, due to the wrong and criminal acts perpetrated by other Black people, he stated he could not take it any more. Finally, he, his wife, and kids, left South Central Los Angeles for good, never to return. South Central Los Angeles was no longer profitable, and it was of little benefit for him to remain, remain only to have his property stolen, while at work earning an honest living. Can't say anything good about this myself, because there is nothing that can be said that is good about this activity. This destructive and criminal activity has virtually destroyed the relationship between those who respect the law, and those who don't. This wrongful and criminal activity by other Black people, more so than anything else, has driven South Central Los Angeles, and Compton into poverty. The people who hold assets, would not be willing to relocate to such a community. This pretty much sums it up, as to why South Central Los Angeles and Compton have hit rock bottom or have been at rock bottom for well over twenty years. At least no one with any sense is going to remain in any community to which their belongings are stolen while they are at work earning an honest living, away from home, and/or they face being burglarized while at home, day in and day out.

Heck, so much criminal activity took place in Compton and South Central Los Angeles that it stretched the resources of the LAPD, and the LA County Sheriffs thin. The policing authorities choose to protect other areas rather than waste valuable resources, and risk their lives, in a truly lawless community such as formerly predominately Black South Central Los Angeles and/or Compton, California.

I shouldn't have to bring proof, as to who predominated this area during the high crime stage, because it has been published by many reputable sources. Furthermore, the people who have lived there, or who continue to live there today, see the demographic shifts daily, which means it is not just me saying so.

Black people, sorry to say, just FFFF----uupppp.

....and Black on Black crime is not limited to Black Los Angeles!

Heck, during my childhood, I used to live in the heart of Watts with my immediate family, to which a sea of Black people lived in the community. My parents chose to move all of our family away from this area, rather than be destroyed by the low regard for life, property, and/or both that commonly occurs within the inner-city when predominated by Black folks. This and other realities being said, and documented on more than one occasion, by many individuals, other than just myself, make Black on Black criminal activity very real. I thank my parents to this day for this, because slim chance exists where any of my family members would be alive today had we remained in Compton, and South Central Los Angeles. Heck, many of my childhood classmates, the adopted son of the foster parent that I lived with during the time that disgraceful Black people were playing musical chairs with my immediate family members for illicitly gained profit, from 1966 to 1969, these individuals no longer remain in the land of the living, meaning they were killed, because of the level of Black on Black criminal activity that is indeed, very real.
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Gee, Michael ...


It'll never happen ER.


Beginning in the 1970s, the precipitous decline of the area's manufacturing base resulted in widespread poverty and crime. Street gangs, such as the Crips and Bloods, rose to great notoriety at this time, becoming even more powerful with the arrival of crack cocaine (trade in which became dominated by gangs) in the 1980s. The area suffered even further as downtown Los Angeles' service sector, which had long been dominated by unionized African-Americans earning relatively high wages, replaced most of these black workers with newly arrived Central American immigrants. By the time of the 1992 Los Angeles riots, which began in South Central and spread throughout the city, South Central had become a byword for urban decay, its bad reputation spread by movies such as South Central, Menace II Society, Friday, and South Central native John Singleton's Boyz N the Hood.

Since the 1992 riots, much of South Central's black working class has moved to the Antelope Valley and Inland Empire areas far to the north and east (respectively) of Los Angeles; departing black homeowners have been replaced by a massive influx of Latinos. Today, South Los Angeles is far from being an "all-black" neighborhood. Many areas in South Los Angeles, including Watts, are now 70% Latino. Communities that used to be heavily populated by blacks have now become ethnically mixed places with Latinos dominating the population. Now, very few communities in South Los Angeles are over three-quarters African American, with most black residents now found in the region's middle-class western districts. The rapid influx of Mexican (legal and illegal) immigrants into formerly all-black areas has caused conflicts among the different ethnic groups. In some parts of South Los Angeles, there have been hate crimes commited by both ethnic groups against each other because of conflicts over housing and employment competition. However, considerable efforts have been made to form a Latino-black alliance in the inner city communities; a watershed event came when the majority of black South Los Angeles residents voted for Antonio Villaraigosa in the 2005 Los Angeles mayoral election."


.....nothing like factual evidence to quash misinformation from anyone who implies, or makes any attempt to infer that none of this happened.
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Fine:

Stick to your guns as I do. You are fine in my book!

Fine


Thanks Fine! Smile