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Stanley "Tookie" Williams, the founder of the Crips gang who is scheduled to be executed next month, is getting some support from the Oscar-winning actor who portrayed him in a 2004 television movie.

Jamie Foxx, who turns 38 on Williams' execution date (Dec. 13), wants California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to grant clemency for the convicted murderer-turned-author.

A Web site has been created to collect signatures in hopes of convincing Schwarzenegger to spare Tookie's life.

"We can't let [the execution] happen," Foxx told Fox 411 columnist Roger Freidman at the New York premiere of his new movie, "Jarhead." "We've got to do everything we can to get the word out. Do you know they've collected nearly 30,000 signatures so far?"

Williams, who is the author of nine children's books that promote peace, was sentenced to death in 1981 for the 1979 murder of a Los Angeles area 7-Eleven manager, and, shortly thereafter, three other people at a motel.

In 1992, a judge recommended clemency for Tookie after he received two Nobel Peace Prize nominations.
http://www.eurweb.com/story.cfm?id=23174

Always Remember that: "Anytime We As A People Are Not Having Our WaySomeone Else Is Having Theirs...And It's Never To Our Advantage."

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I normally am against capital punishment, but if anyone ever "deserved" it...

Unfortunately it would be Stanley Williams.

The three unnamed people from the article was an entire family that this man executed.

He made each member watch the other get shot w/ a shot-gun...

The good things that he has done since, may help God forgive him, but he deserves to be hanged.
don't you think he wouldbe more useful to black kids as an example of how to turn your life around as opposed to dead? The death penalty is very barbaric and is on the same level as the crime committed....just because a white man in a black robe orders death as revenge...does not mean that he is no different from the criminal who decided to take a life....should someone come back and kill the judge for ordering him to death.......this is one backwoods hick azz country if i've ever seen one.......
Depends,

Yes we don't have the death penalty but that had more to do that the Liberal party politicians who took the choice away from the citizens and decided for us (Not very democratic).
We were also the haven for serial sex killer Charles Ng who took advantage of a clause in our extradition treaty that ensured that he would not be subject to the death penalty if he was returned to the States.
Civilized? I get rather uncivil when it comes to getting rid of these vermin that prey on the innocent and just so you know I had a sister who was killed by her asshole husband who subsequently killed himself when the cops showed pictures of her battered body that was his handy work.
So I guess I have reeeeaal strong feelings about the subject that ain't up for debate.
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
...they say our experiences shape our views ....


Your experiences and your character shape your views. It would be dishonest to say that revenge doesn't ever cross the minds of any one victimized, either directly or indirectly, but true emotional closure comes without vengeance.

Killing the killer will not bring back the dead and it will not repair the hole left in the hearts of the dead's loved ones. It will only be another killing, a legalized killing.
The intention is not to bring back the dead. Revenge is minor the way I see it is that that person will never have a chance to kill again.
No other families will be victim. If you kill you die simple.
I would never let a dangerous dog roam through our neighbourhood killing our children and pets so why would I let a person do the same thing. These people are phsychopaths they see conscience and morality as a weakness to be exploited. They care only for their own gratification at the expense of others.

Stanley "Tookie" Williams, the founder of the Crips gang. This guy has created a legacy of death in the founding of a criminal oraganization that stretches across the US and Canada. His opposition the "Bloods" and his crew vy for control of the drug trade to sell poison to their communities. Drug addiction and bloodshed to the black community and this is the guy you want to save? There are many gang and crime leaders who still control their groups from the safety of a prison cell.
So he wrote some children's books, how many children have died in drivebys??
Kevin41 to answer your question- no

As I said before I would not have a dangerous person or animal running uncontrolled in my neighbourhood. He has killed in the past and it was not a matter that he attempting to defend his family but was cold blooded murder.

I see nothing redeeming and have heard the old con talk of "I have changed I am a better man"before. TFB.
It would have been one thing if it was just one killing that could be explained as perhaps an "accident" but when the body count starts piling up to four or more persons... I also hold him culpable for the actions of his gang as he created and lead it, for the continued victimization of their respective communities drug and gang violence.
Would his living lead to understanding? Would his death? I say let his past victims decide what his fate would be. I know how I would vote if I were on the list.
...and no telling how many Black people Tookie Williams, Tookie's associates, and/or other Black gangs are responsible for killing over three decades.

Heck, in the early seventies, members of the Crips would hold up at gun point, Black men and women who wore Black leather jackets, the jackets owned by the victims.

Many such incidents took place at the Hollywood Bowl, and/or other social events, where under normal circumstances it would not even cross a concert goer's mind that they would be held up at gun point, shot, beaten, maimed, and/or killed, for their clothing, jewelry, wallet, Black leather jacket, etc., etc. while taking in a concert, etc., etc., during a family and friends outing.

It would not be any great loss to the Black community to have Tookie Williams and/or others who have been responsible for the deaths of numerous innocent Black men and women, over the years, put to death.

Mind you, Tookie Williams is on Death Row for killing a Korean family, and a Caucasian male.

.....not to mention untold numbers of Black innocent victims killed or maimed, many no Thanks to the likes of Tookie Williams, other Black gang members, and/or his or their, criminal associates.

********************************
Agents Arrest 8 in Gang Sweep

Action is aimed at drug-related violence in Baldwin Village in southwest L.A. Seven more are detained on parole violations.

By Richard Winton, Times Staff Writer

November 11, 2005

The FBI and Los Angeles Police Department on Thursday arrested what authorities described as the leaders of a gang responsible for 28 murders over the last five years in and around a one-square-mile area of southwest Los Angeles.

Hundreds of heavily armored LAPD officers and FBI agents carrying 16 federal drug indictments stormed locations in the Baldwin Village area, arresting suspected members of the Black P-Stone gang.
The arrest capped more than a year of investigation in which authorities used informants to infiltrate the organization and make drug buys that were recorded secretly on videotape. All of the charges related to drug offenses, including conspiracy to distribute crack cocaine.

"This is a battle between good and evil. These are evil people. They are murderers. They are drug dealers. They poison these neighborhoods," Police Chief William J. Bratton said at a news conference. "We are making a major effort to disrupt and hopefully dismantle the leadership of one of the more prolifically violent gangs in the city of Los Angeles."

Bratton said the Black P-Stones have deep roots in a gritty section of low-slung apartment houses between La Brea Avenue and Crenshaw Boulevard south of Coliseum Street. Baldwin Village, for generations known as "the Jungle" for its rich assortment of tropical foliage, was the backdrop for portions of the crime film "Training Day."

Baldwin Village has long been an island of heavy gang activity in a larger community of middle-class and upper-middle-class neighborhoods that dot southwest Los Angeles at the foot of the Baldwin Hills, said Police Capt. James Craig, division commander for the southwest area.

Baldwin Village is less than a mile square, but the LAPD estimates that it is home to 700 to 800 gang members. Police Lt. Paul Vernon said that is an extraordinarily high ratio "” even for the city's highest-crime neighborhoods. "These are the guys who lure teenagers into the gang life," he said.

Over the last five years, Black P-Stone members have been involved in 800 street robberies and 1,500 aggravated assaults as well as the 28 murders, said Craig.

Bratton has been so concerned about crime in Baldwin Village that he selected the area as one of five neighborhoods to receive extra officers, who are pursuing small crimes such as trespassing in hopes of preventing more serious crimes. Craig said that this effort has reduced crime somewhat, but that officials expect a larger drop in the wake of the arrests.

The FBI and LAPD called the investigation "Operation Stone Cold." Detectives spent more than a year building cases against gang leaders with street nicknames such as "Briminal," "Blaster" and "Bandit."

Authorities said many of the cases are built around videotapes of gang members selling drugs to informants.

"We've worked to put them away for a very long time. Those arrested today face 40 years to life if convicted," J. Stephen Tidwell, assistant director in charge of the Los Angeles FBI office, said at a news conference announcing the arrests.

Authorities had arrested eight people as of 8 p.m. Thursday and were searching for eight others. An additional seven not listed on arrest warrants were detained for alleged parole violations and other charges.

Those arrested Thursday included: Shannon Thomas Adkins, known as "Big Stray Dogg," 31, of Los Angeles; Lorenzo Clay II, known as "Big Man," 32, of Hawthorne; Ronald Herbert Ellis, known as "Blaster," 40, of Los Angeles; Lawrence Eugene Hill Sr., known as "LB" and "Lil Black," 35; David Dermaine Jones, known as "Tall Blood" and "Popkorn," 29, of Los Angeles; Derek Pascascio, known as "PB" and "Quran Durant," 29, of Los Angeles; Aaron Westley Smith Sr., known as "Bandit," 31, of Los Angeles; James Womack IV, also known as "J-Berry" and "J-Bear," 32, of Inglewood.

Eight others remain fugitives: Carlos Merrel Broady, also known as "Wink," 28; Cornel Crosby Carnegie, known as "J.J.," 26; Mark Anthony Dacosta, known as "Marky Boy," 34; Jesse Lee Floyd III, known as "Jesse James," 49; Ronald Lionel Hill Jr., known as "Big Rat Boy," 26; Quentin Lamont Howard, known as "Briminal," 32; Richard Pecantte, known as "Richie," 37; and Ray Dannell Walker.

*******************************
Mind you, this activity has been going on since the seventies, in the area commonly referred to as the "Jungle", other parts of South Central Los Angeles, and/or other Black parts of town, activity that has led to the death of numerous innocent Black people over the years, the victims and/or the assailants, being Black people.

The authorities intend to clean up Los Angeles County, the City of Los Angeles, and/or other cities across the U.S., because this is necessary to promote business development, make for a safer environment for families, etc., etc.

....and it is certain, that those who participate in this type of activity have been warned, way in advance. It would behoove those who have not been arrested, to quit while they are ahead. Should they continue to operate, they can't honestly say they have not been warned.

Any individual or group of individuals who choose to continue to be participants in this type of activity, will either conform to respect the rights of others, or policing authorities and the court system will make it very uncomfortable for those who choose to live such a life style, at the expense of the law abiding.

Michael Lofton

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blaqfist--I feel just the opposite. Who has the right to judge 'Tookie' then or now? IMO a tribunal needs to question and hold accountable the very judicial structure that is judging him.

Kevin41--his usefulness is w/o question. The fact that he transcended inside the judicial system shows the true nature of the "beast" that created the judicial system in the first place.

Blacksanction--No one has the right to take another's life and no one has the right to take the life of another who has taken another's life.

When you do your research 'especially in "Destruction of the Black Civilization" by Dr. Chancellor Williams you'll discover just how un-democractic this nation really is....

The very word "civil" has no value, meaning or honor in this country. Ancient Africans--who invented true democracy knew the meaning of this word and practiced it very well.

Isome--Killing the killer "is" barbaric. I wonder if the loved ones have visited "Tookie" and started on their road of forgiveness?

Blacksanction--revenge is what has black people in a pickled situation to this very day; and, contrary to what you say--Tookie was locked up and in essence 'no one else' has suffered since.

The legacy of death ended when he trascended to a higher level of learning and understanding.

Kevin41--His obvious ability to "influence more people to change while alive" is apparent!

Dissident--formerly Keynote I will look into your suggested documentary.

Blacksanction-Tookies action(s) speak louder than any previous convict's talk of "I have changed I am a better man". I know of 2 other men who served time and became better men by their actions rather than words--Malcolm X and Carl Upchurch. Keep in mind Malcolm X did not kill, while Carl Upchurch did. Do you have anyone to add to this list?

Norland--IMO "legalized killing" is the right of no one.

You are exactly correct,though, we live and breath inside the Euro-version of everything, every single holiday and regular day.


Fine bump
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksanction:
Kevin41 to answer your question- no

As I said before I would not have a dangerous person or animal running uncontrolled in my neighbourhood. He has killed in the past and it was not a matter that he attempting to defend his family but was cold blooded murder.

I see nothing redeeming and have heard the old con talk of "I have changed I am a better man"before. TFB.
It would have been one thing if it was just one killing that could be explained as perhaps an "accident" but when the body count starts piling up to four or more persons... I also hold him culpable for the actions of his gang as he created and lead it, for the continued victimization of their respective communities drug and gang violence.
Would his living lead to understanding? Would his death? I say let his past victims decide what his fate would be. I know how I would vote if I were on the list.


I hear ya..I wasn't necessarily talking about him roaming the neighborhood...i was thinking more of using him as an educational entity to help brothers in there go back to their communities to break the cycles of behavior that got them there in the first place. I try to view the world through an academic lens...not an emotional or passionate one....that can lead you to embrcing illogical ass thinking...like the Lofton,s, CF and Eggewhite types....plus I want my level of analysis towards the solution to black people's problems to be a little more sophisticated than the " Cage em and Fry em" azz solutions the country has for us as of now.......but do not get me wrong, I do respect your views because I am in no position to be judgemental of them........
Thx Kevin41 I respect your thoughts but theory and reality are two different things. This is not an emotion thing with me. I can calmly say that if someone were to harm my family that no matter where they went I would hunt them down Smilewith extreme predudice no matter if it took years.

Had Tookie been a child of 10 or even 16 I might be able to believe the claim that he was a misguided child but he was an adult when he committed these crimes.

He's had 24 more years than his victims to redeem himself.

And now for the academic test.

Would you give the same chance for redemption if this were Adolf Hitler and he was in the process of continuing his progrom against Jews, Russians, and Blacks (Yes there were blacks in Germany at the time). You are alone with him and you have a gun if you kill him it would save millions of lives if you don't you along with those will die. What would you do tick tock tick tock.

I feel the same way about some of the killers out there. Tookie's legacy regardless of what he may do or say is that his gang still exists and still reaps victims.For me that is beyond redemption.
Well, this is all rather ironic, BLACKSANCTION. Contradictory, actually.

On the "Kill The White People" thread you definitely was forwarding concepts of Redemption. Funny how that works... That and how your Hunt Them With A Vengence persona takes a vacation about "gangs" and thangs still in existence and reaping victims, causing terror or otherwise threatening the quality and chances of life.

Interesting though...

quote:
Another example of becoming what you hate by doing what has been done to you. Killing only begets killing.
Interesting how you kicked that shit to the curb. LOL

Yeah, you really believe in that one! sck
His gang he gets the credit for the creation of the Crips. He's still considered the spiritual father of the gang hence the vengence should he be executed.

Depends on what you mean by "concept of gangs" In broad terms gangs have been around for thousands of years.
The Mafia, The Hell's Angels, The Banditos, The Bloods, Yakuza, Tongs, sure they all started as nice social clubs then they went off the rails and started victimizing their own people.
Not really Nmaginate as I have ancestry to whites and asians as well as black. I have relatives who are married to whites and have children. So why would I be stupid and try to destroy part of what I am... that is self-hate. Family is family regardless of the colour of their skin.
So I standby my positions. Subscription to genocide that would be a threat to my own family is very silly, killing a person who is a clear threat to my community is another.
quote:
Another example of becoming what you hate by doing what has been done to you. Killing only begets killing.

Nice throw back. The comment was directed at the commentator who was claiming that whites were intent on wiping out blacks, so lets do it to them before they do it to us.
Yes killing only begets killing- yes if you kill my family then expect that I won't turn the other cheek. If blacks started killing whites then expect that the white would return the favour. I am not seeing the difficult concept here.
Oh please Nmaginate enlighten me as to how I am a hypocrite? That is what you wanted to claim?
Again, you kicked that "Killing Only Begets Killing" stuff to the curb.

quote:
I have relatives who are married to whites and have children.
So now the truth comes out. Far be it for you to say that on the actual thread it pertains.

Either you believe in "killing" or you don't. Or, more than anything, you don't say little quaint cliche type stuff that you can't and won't maintain across the board.

Killing only begets killing.

So? Your reason for wanting Tookie, etc. killed? You and I both know it's not in-line with that little axiom.

Nowhere here have you said, "If Tookie is killed, it will only beget more killing."

It ain't that hard.
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksanction:
His gang he gets the credit for the creation of the Crips. He's still considered the spiritual father of the gang hence the vengence should he be executed.

Depends on what you mean by "concept of gangs" In broad terms gangs have been around for thousands of years.
The Mafia, The Hell's Angels, The Banditos, The Bloods, Yakuza, Tongs, sure they all started as nice social clubs then they went off the rails and started victimizing their own people.


I can't speak with any authority on whether those gangs began as social clubs, so I won't 'spute your word on that.

quote:
Yes killing only begets killing- yes if you kill my family then expect that I won't turn the other cheek. If blacks started killing whites then expect that the white would return the favour. I am not seeing the difficult concept here.


I would, however, like to get into the concept of killing begets killing, also known as violence begets violence.

When it gets right down to it, the concept of killing for monetary gain is a matter of US foreign policy -- in matters of waging war, our national interests include the economic interests of multi-nationals. Have you ever read the pamphlet by USMC General Smedley Butler? Here's a small sample:
    I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

    During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

Our government currently condones torture, uses weapons and strategies that kill (if not outright targets) civilians, yet dehumanizes the victims by referring to them as "collateral damage". The bombing of all of Afghanistan was vengeful and in pursuit of a relative handful of individuals.

The national debate about war after 09.11.01 was framed with the sentiment that if we do not do something, other countries will think we are "weak". A most high-schoolish rational for mass human destruction, but nonetheless, it was commonly heard then and is still used today by otherwise reasonable adults.

Finally, there's the small matter of violence against people of African descent by those supposed to protect & serve that is merely part of a continuum of violence against us and a veritable cornucopia of indigenous peoples the world over.

That being the case, it must be taken into consideration that the fish rots from the head down.

Gangs kill to initimidate, for revenge, over money-making turf (though that "turf" isn't owned by any of them) and to prove their mettle and that they aren't soft -- so I presume if movies and heresay are accurate. What they do is no different than what has been done by people in uniforms, and under the cover of written or a "higher" law, since the inception of this country.

Violence is a part of the American fabric, so it stands to reason that their violence beget Tookie's violence.


Just when does it stop?
Nmaginate I could careless if Tookie lives or dies. I had said that it should be left in the hands of his victims (the ones still living).

Just because I do not subscribe to your way of thinking does not mean you have to stalk me from page to page. I may not be a black American (thus perhaps your feelings of inadequacy and paranoia- but I am black none the less). My embracing of all that makes me what I am does not mean that I side with whites at the detriment of my black brothers (race-traitor!!- grow the fuck up), for as surley as the shit hits the fan I will stand or fall with my brothers. I will not however agree to this bullshit of conspiracy theory of persecution.

I believe in capital punishment. You do not. I believe that citizens have the right not to be mugged,raped or violated and that those that do engage in said activity do so at their own peril. Perhap you have been fortunate and not been the victim or relative of a victim of crime. I am, I have been. Perhaps you believe in second chances, I don't where my family is concerned. This is not classroom theory stuff, Tookies killed people and victimized his own community, his gang continues to do so on four continents (great legacy for a man of peace).
I have had dealings with physchopaths and sociopaths -neither has any remorse or pity for the rest of us. The scary part is they know how to play the game of normalcy, there is no cure as they are not sick, they are who they are and we are their prey.

So if you want to help them be my guest but... until you have walked in my shoes just fuck-off - alledged smartass.

Woops forgot to mention. Should tookie be executed his former gang that he created- The Crips- had planned on revenge killings of police and prison guards.
Tookie had renounced violence and rejected his gang but apparently Crips forever forever Crips tfro

Damn I should not post and drink scotch!
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
Do you get the feeling that if Stanley "Tookie" Williams was White, and the majority of members at African-America Forums were FOR his death, that Black Neocons would be suddenly against the Death Penalty for him?


Why yes, yes I do!

Or... if he were white and we had the same argument, there'd be neo-cons making snarky comments about being bleeding heart liberals.
quote:
Nmaginate I could careless if Tookie lives or dies... Just because I do not subscribe to your way of thinking does not mean you have to stalk me from page to page.
Dude, the problem is you're having problem subscribing to your own professed way of thinking. Again:
Nowhere here have you said, "If Tookie is killed, it will only beget more killing."

So obviously you don't believe your little quaint axiom: Killing only begets killing. That cliche' you thought was so relevant (or cute) on the other thread. You say it when it is convenient. Ignore it when it conveniently fits "your way of thinking".

Hmmm... And I don't recall listing "my way of thinking" here... And oh my gosh!!! Osh & Kosh! We have another one of those creatures who feel as if they are being "stalked". Big Grin

Too funny... Talk about paranoia. Roll Eyes

quote:
My embracing of all that makes me what I am does not mean that I side with whites at the detriment of my black brothers...
There's another one of them balls thrown OFF-THE-WALL. Dude, you're Slippin' again. Slippin' Into Darkness.

It might not be paranoia that's bugging you after-all. I could be some guilt... considering how nothing I've said questioned whether you take sides with Whites to the detriment of Blacks (though I was going to say something about your curious notion of "family" as it relates to what potentially threatens them).

quote:
I believe in capital punishment. You do not.
Again, I don't recall listing "my way of thinking" here.

quote:
Perhap you have been fortunate and not been the victim or relative of a victim of crime.
And perhaps you should stop your assumptions and check them at the door. You're assuming that I'm speaking from some classroom perspective. You're also assuming that your experience makes your view bona fide. Unquestionably legitimate and proper.

GET A CLUE!

quote:
So if you want to help them be my guest but... until you have walked in my shoes just fuck-off - alledged smartass.
Dude, likewise, you haven't walked in my shoes... So this idea that you have some extra legitimacy because of what you perceive to be unique to you scores you no points.

My thing with you is simple. Either you believe that shit you say or you don't. Walk in them shoes, bruh. Otherwise, control your feet and your mouth from speaking and stepping in directions you don't want to go.

Again, either you believe KILLING BEGETS KILLING or you don't.

quote:
Woops forgot to mention. Should tookie be executed his former gang that he created- The Crips- had planned on revenge killings of police and prison guards.
Well, seems like an example of your little quip: KILLING BEGETS KILLING.

Now what's confusing about that? It follows the very little thing you wanted to preach.
Nmaginate dude,

Like dude I take it that it is okay that like dude, Tookie makes victims of your family and friends, dude?

Dude you're stressed, Tookie don't kill people. Crips kill people.

Dude call the cops I'm slipping into darkness!

Dude score points. Er dude am pretty sure I said Fuck-off. I am sure that is what I said. Fuck-off does not infer that I was hoping for your consent to fuck-off.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
My thing with you is simple. Either you believe that shit you say or you don't. Walk in them shoes, bruh. Otherwise, control your feet and your mouth from speaking and stepping in directions you don't want to go.

Again, either you believe KILLING BEGETS KILLING or you don't.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hmm "thing with you" (signs of a stalker). Hey sport we do not have a relationship.

I said what I said before and now I stand by it.

It ain't theory puta it be fact dude heart
Poor little Sanction.

The dude who would be stalked.... Because he can't back up what he claims he stands by.

Too funny...
quote:
And where have you actually established where you actually believe what you say?

KILLING BEGETS KILLING... but you're all for Capital Punishment. Nice! Big Grin
My apologies to other thread readers.
Nmaginate has a comprehension problem and other issues (fixation) with me.

I see a substantial difference between the extermination of a race, culture, or ethnic group as opposed to the killing of an individual who is or poses a threat to a community. Killing a race of persons for the actions of a few does not make sense. Killing a person for his or her specific actions/ and involvement in a life taking crime against their community does.
Its my logic and my belief take it or leave it.

This is a very interesting discussion and I hope that dialogue can continue.
quote:
Killing a race of persons for the actions of a few does not make sense.
Ummm... That's not the issue. Either you believe in this stuff or you don't:
KILLING ONLY BEGETS KILLING.

On the other thread, you didn't qualify that statement by saying "in this case" or anything to the effect that said such an absolute statement had exceptions. And that idea is one that's forward pretty often by Anti-War and anti-capital punishment types all the time.

So it matters not that there is a difference between the "call" for extermination and the call for execution. That statement , as pointed out earlier, is an anti-violence statement. And an absolute statement at that. One that hardly suggests that there are exceptions.

Now, you can pretend like you never said it or even act like you actually qualified it but that is obviously not the case.

quote:
Its my logic and my belief take it or leave it.
Yada, yada... I don't care whether you're pro-capital punishment or against Kambon's extermination statement. It has indeed been your "logic" that's been at issue.

KILLING ONLY BEGETS KILLING, again, is an anti-violence statement.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
Do you get the feeling that if Stanley "Tookie" Williams was White, and the majority of members at African-America Forums were FOR his death, that Black Neocons would be suddenly against the Death Penalty for him?


lol There'd be a rousing rendition of "KUMBYA" followed by a heart felt round of "Forgiveness."


How can you surmise/forcast our behavior in this scenario? Admit it.....you don't know what a "neocon" would say....
^You should tell that to your Conservative brethren who make predictions about what Liberals and Leftists would do in certain situations as well.


It's kind of easy to guage what a Neocon might do, look at their track record of positions and look at what their party ideology is. They often support killing Minorities, but they are often against rich White people getting in trouble. Look at how many Neocons were against Kenneth Lay going to jail and how many are calling endicting Karl Rove, Dick Cheney and "Scooter" Libby a "left-wing conspiracy".
In 1981 the state of California convicted Williams of murdering Albert Owen, Thsai-Shai Yang, Yen-I Yang, and Yee Chen Lin during two seperate robberies and sentenced him to death. Owen had been taken into the backroom of the convenience store he worked and shot execution style in the back of the head. The Yangs and their daughter were all killed by close range shotgun blasts. Williams bragged to friends about the Owen murder. He said "I shot some white guy and got $63 off him". Ballistics evidence proved his guilt at trial. He is currently waiting on death row in San Quentin State Prison. The state denied a clemency request for Williams in 2005. His execution date has been set for December 13, 2005.

It's kind of easy to guage what a Neocon might do, look at their track record of positions and look at what their party ideology is.

Given the circumstances above: you just might be right.


Then you create a scenario:

Originally posted by Empty Purnata:Do you get the feeling that if Stanley "Tookie" Williams was White, and the majority of members at African-America Forums were FOR his death, that Black Neocons would be suddenly against the Death Penalty for him?

E.P., your scenario, shows your bias against people who do not think like you do. Your scenario has no credibility.
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:

E.P., your scenario, shows your bias against people who do not think like you do. Your scenario has no credibility.


That's not true, no matter how many times you you say it!

Based just on the posts in this forum, what the white neo-cons favor so, too, do the black-faced neo-cons. E.P.'s generalization was reasonable.

It has nothing to do with bias and everything to do with observation.
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:
Then you create a scenario:

Originally posted by Empty Purnata:Do you get the feeling that if Stanley "Tookie" Williams was White, and the majority of members at African-America Forums were FOR his death, that Black Neocons would be suddenly against the Death Penalty for him?

E.P., your scenario, shows your bias against people who do not think like you do. Your scenario has no credibility.


You haven't shown that I was wrong. All you did was post the story and then say that I was wrong to say that if he were White that Neocons would want him free.

I gave you examples of how Neocons let White criminals off the hook such as Kenny Lay, Karl Rove. Some people on the Religious Right also wanted to release another cold-blooded killer: Carla Faye Tucker. Just like Tookie Williams, she murdered someone in cold blood, then turned her life around in prison. The Christian Right wanted her set free because of her religious conversion, but George Bush had her executed anyway. Tookie Williams has also killed in cold blood (unlike Tucker, his murder was spontaneous and not a murder like Tucker's) and he turned his life around in prison. Yet no Religious Right loonies are gathering to his defsense.

That's a perfect example that proves my case.

Also, are you a Neocon? You seem to be getting awful upset about my use of the term. Most Conservatives who aren't Neocons don't really get offended by the term because they consider Neocons to be a "different breed".

Bias? Come on, like you don't show bias? Even "Moderates" are biased to their own neutral position, or they usually slant a little to the Left or to the Right. EVERYONE is biased, don't ever let anyone tell you different.
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:

E.P., your scenario, shows your bias against people who do not think like you do. Your scenario has no credibility.


That's not true, no matter how many times you you say it!

Based just on the posts in this forum, what the white neo-cons favor so, too, do the black-faced neo-cons. E.P.'s generalization was reasonable.

It has nothing to do with bias and everything to do with observation.


Thank you! Wink

I have never seen a Black Neoconservative disagree with a White Neoconservative on anything. When Black Neocons DO dissent with their White overlords, it is because they believe their White counterparts are being "too lenient" (ie, not extreme enough).

Have you ever seen that movie "Life" with Eddie Murphy and Martin Lawrence sentenced to a chain gang prison for life? Black Neocons often remind me of that Black prison guard in the movie that would beat up on the inmates verbally and psychologically more than his White prison guard overlord.


I think I hit a sore spot with Jeff because I said "Neocon". I think he responded prematurely and didn't realize I was referring to Neocons and not reasonable Black Conservatives like Colin Powell and Denzel Washington.
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:

E.P., your scenario, shows your bias against people who do not think like you do. Your scenario has no credibility.


That's not true, no matter how many times you you say it!

Based just on the posts in this forum, what the white neo-cons favor so, too, do the black-faced neo-cons. E.P.'s generalization was reasonable.

It has nothing to do with bias and everything to do with observation.


Have you observed anything like the scenario E.P. mentioned?
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:

Have you observed anything like the scenario E.P. mentioned?


I have observed that: "what the white neo-cons favor so, too, do the black-faced neo-cons." without question! They unthinkingly condone war, imperialism, torture, Black self-denigration, anti-labor policies, etc., just as white neo-cons do. They will argue their position using predictable rhetoric that can be found on any far rightwing rabid website, reference it as a source and become ever so mum when presented with hard facts to the contrary.
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:
Then you create a scenario:

Originally posted by Empty Purnata:Do you get the feeling that if Stanley "Tookie" Williams was White, and the majority of members at African-America Forums were FOR his death, that Black Neocons would be suddenly against the Death Penalty for him?

E.P., your scenario, shows your bias against people who do not think like you do. Your scenario has no credibility.


You haven't shown that I was wrong. All you did was post the story and then say that I was wrong to say that if he were White that Neocons would want him free.

I gave you examples of how Neocons let White criminals off the hook such as Kenny Lay, Karl Rove. Some people on the Religious Right also wanted to release another cold-blooded killer: Carla Faye Tucker. Just like Tookie Williams, she murdered someone in cold blood, then turned her life around in prison. The Christian Right wanted her set free because of her religious conversion, but George Bush had her executed anyway. Tookie Williams has also killed in cold blood (unlike Tucker, his murder was spontaneous and not a murder like Tucker's) and he turned his life around in prison. Yet no Religious Right loonies are gathering to his defsense.

That's a perfect example that proves my case.

Oh did Mr Williams claim that he was a changed man because of his religious (christian convictions)?

Also, are you a Neocon? Black ConservativeYou seem to be getting awful upset about my use of the term. Not upset at all E.P. Most Conservatives who aren't Neocons don't really get offended by the term because they consider Neocons to be a "different breed".

Bias? Come on, like you don't show bias? Even "Moderates" are biased to their own neutral position, or they usually slant a little to the Left or to the Right. EVERYONE is biased, don't ever let anyone tell you different.
True

Show me where you are right in your depiction, sir.
Did he claim to be a changed Christian man? Who cares whether or not he was a Christian? He was still a new man, he even wrote children's books discouraging violence.


BTW, I specifically said "Black Neocon", I don't consider all Black Conservatives, or even Conservatives in general, to be Neocons. Neocon is a very specific group, even more specific than non-Neocon Conservatives.

However, Neocons are the fastest growing ideological group in America and are quickly gaining political power and social sway.
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Did he claim to be a changed Christian man?


Being obtuse is a trait of the neo-con. Perhaps that is what actually you are. You're not going to find an exact parallel. A mere cursory look around this very forum proves E.P. right in his assertion.


Well, Jeff did say he was a "Conservative with Libertarian leanings".

That sounds somewhat similar to many Neocons. Well, Neocons are corporate Libertarians, they are governmental fascists who claim to be "minimalists" because they want government out of business, but have no problem with using govenrment to outlaw sexual freedom and women's reproductive rights if they are personally offended.

That's what a Neocon is. It's up to Jeff to figure whether or not that sounds like him.
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
That's what a Neocon is. It's up to Jeff to figure whether or not that sounds like him.


It doesn't really matter what he calls himself. Once someone shows you what they are, believe them. Wink

You were right and any supercilious questions now about alleging selectivity of rightwing pseudo-Christians are irrelevant.
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Did he claim to be a changed Christian man?


Being obtuse is a trait of the neo-con. Perhaps that is what actually you are. You're not going to find an exact parallel. A mere cursory look around this very forum proves E.P. right in his assertion.


Well, Jeff did say he was a "Conservative with Libertarian leanings".

That sounds somewhat similar to many Neocons. Well, Neocons are corporate Libertarians, they are governmental fascists who claim to be "minimalists" because they want government out of business, but have no problem with using govenrment to outlaw sexual freedom and women's reproductive rights if they are personally offended.

That's what a Neocon is. It's up to Jeff to figure whether or not that sounds like him.


Awwdamn, Isome, you might have me pegged.
Outlawing sexual freedom? Not sure what you mean by that......Between two consenting responsible adults. Ok.

Isome, there was a time that I had no problem with a woman having the final decision with what she will do with her body.....and then Partial Birth Abortion became an issue some years back.....turned me off....had to rethink the abortion issue altogether.
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:

Isome, there was a time that I had no problem with a woman having the final decision with what she will do with her body.....and then Partial Birth Abortion became an issue some years back.....turned me off....had to rethink the abortion issue altogether.


I don't know how this became a discussion on abortion rights (b/c I sure as hell didn't bring that shit up), but you have just PROVEN yourself a black-faced, unthinking, willfully ignorant neo-con!!

There is no such thing in the medical profession as "partial birth abortion." That was a term a linguistics guy, who works for the neo-cons, found would be the most disturbing to an unthinking public. (I'll find his name and post it later, but you have certainly revealed your true self.)

:: This is the deal ::

Late-term abortions, which the neo-cons renamed "partial birth abortions" are so fucking rare it shouldn't be an issue. There are only done in a hospital and only when the mother's life is in danger. There are some women who would die rather than save themselves, but there are others who want the chance to live. A women's health facility --which dispenses birth control pills, sponges, diaphrams, etc., performs pap smears and sometimes provides abortion services-- lacks the necessary life-saving equipment to handle a patient who would need such a procedure, which pre-emptively quells any argument that they are performed in the low-cost clinics incessantly targeted by the hypocritically violent and anti-women's rights pro-life crowd.

I am in awe of women who give their lives so their child can be born, and I am equally in awe of the women who fight to save their own. If a mother's life is in jeopardy by the impending birth of a child and her options are to bare her child, yet leave her other three motherless, she should not be denied her choice to live.

Amazing that some very vocal and ignorant people wax judgemental about the subject using a term made-up by anti-women's rights fanatics! In fact, the fool who made up the name (I must find it) is a rank opportunist who probably has no feeling about the issue one way or the other, but he knows how to push the buttons of sheeple.

You fell for that smegma, hook line and sinker and showed yourself for the neo-con that you are.

:: On Edit ::
    Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary lists 30 definitions of various abortions, yet no definition of partial birth abortion.

    The term "therapeutic abortion" appears in both and is defined as an "abortion induced to save the life or health (physical or mental) of a pregnant woman; sometimes performed after rape or incest." Notice how this definition focuses on women's health?

    If these senators care about an unborn child's endangered life, then they must specify how they intend to protect the living mother's health.

    The procedure targeted in the bill could save the life of a mother or prevent serious complications and injury, including paralysis, which is why former president Bill Clinton twice vetoed similar bills.
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MBM in the ideal society you are correct.

Unfortunately it depends on what you believe the purpose of law is for, the protection of the citizen or for the criminal? I subscibe to the idea that the original law had been for the protection of the citizen, but lawyers got involved and now it protects the criminals from accountablity and punishment (yes this is an over simplification-as this does not address issue of the wrongfully convicted).

The Williams case will be decided by the people who are the loudest-not the most correct(on either side of the issue) to get the ear of Swarzenegger- politics politics politics.

Off topic- We could talk about native justice healing circles.
Well, it has been proven that the death penalthy is not a deterrant to crime/murder. It is also true that with all of the various appeals etc. that the DP requires - it is actually more expensive to put someone to death than to keep them in prison for life. Further, society is protected equally whether the person is behind bars "forever" or they are put to death. That said, I'm not sure what benefit the death penalty provides to society.
I guess I just have not evolved enough to give up on vengeance and I am not sure I will reach that spot.

If it were a matter that the person was going to be buried in a secure max facility and would never ever have human contact again (barring medical emergency) I might reconsider my blood thirsty ways.

There are many criminals who still control their gangs while inside the prison. Prisons are not as secure as people are lead to believe, guards are not all honest or smart and hence escapes happen and organized crime and drugs florish in prison system.

Besides myself who here has had dealings with persons who were lifers or long term institutionalized? (If this is off topic please let me know)
...Blacksanction,

California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger appoints individuals who defend, protect, and/or promote the cause for victims rights, and not the rights of criminals.....

"Governor Schwarzenegger Appoints Two Members of the Board of Prison Terms

Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger today announced the appointment of Margarita Perez as chairwoman of the Board of Prison Terms and Susan Fisher as a member of the board.

"Margarita and Susan bring a wealth of experience and knowledge of law enforcement and parole in California," said Governor Schwarzenegger. "I thank them for their willingness to serve the people of California."

Perez has 15 years of experience in Board of Prison Terms law enforcement. Since 2001 she has served as a senior investigator and parole agent in the investigations division. Perez served from 1996 to 2001 as a parole agent at the California Department of Corrections. She began her career in law enforcement as a correctional officer first at Avenal State Prison and later as a correctional sergeant at Folsom State prison. Perez is a former captain with the California Army National Guard. She served on active duty during Operation Desert Storm and volunteered for active duty following the terrorist attacks of September 11th.

Perez, 41, is a Democrat from Cameron Park, CA. She is a graduate of the University of New York with a Bachelor of Science in general business. This position requires Senate confirmation and the statutory compensation is $103,317.

Fisher has more than a decade of experience working on behalf of crime victims. Since 1999 she has been the director of the Doris Tate Crime Victims Bureau. She served as a member of the board of directors of the Doris Tate Crime Victims Bureau for seven years. She has also been a member of several community crime victims' organizations including the Institute for Crime and Trauma Survivors, the San Diego County chapter of Parents of Murdered Children and since 2000 as president of Citizens for Law and Order.

Fisher, 50, is a Republican from Oceanside, CA. She is a graduate of the Pacific College of Nursing. This position requires Senate confirmation and the statutory compensation is $99,693.

The Board of Prison Terms considers parole release and establishes the length and conditions of parole for all persons sentenced to the Department of Corrections under the indeterminate sentencing law and for persons sentenced to prison for a term of less than life and those serving a sentence of life without the possibility of parole."

**************************************
.......meaning slim chance exists where, or even if, California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger will support Tookie Williams in his quest for clemency, at the expense of the heirs of the victims of the individuals killed by Tookie Williams and/or his criminal associates.

The heirs of the victims killed by Tookie Williams, and his partners in criminal activity, have made it very clear that nothing short of execution should take place to bring closure to this set of circumstances.
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quote:
Originally posted by Fine:
A very keen political move by Arnold to take the pressure off himself. And, yes it would appear that support to even keep "Tookie" imprisoned but alive is nil...

Fine


...some of the functions of elected officials within California, none of which are suited to protect criminals or criminal activity at the expense of the law abiding.

....not really. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is doing his job as an elected official, namely serving the interest of law abiding citizens, to be safe in their possessions, personal effects, etc., against the unlawful criminal acts of other than law abiding citizens and/or otherwise.

An elected official's primary function is to serve the people, namely law abiding citizens. Since Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is an elected official, he is carrying out his mandated by law, and sworn under oath, duty to protect the rights of the law abiding, first and foremost, and not the rights of known criminals.

**********************

From Arnold Himself....

"Arnold Schwarzenegger Sworn-in As The 38th Governor of California

On the morning of Monday, November 17th, Arnold Schwarzenegger was sworn-in as the 38th Governor of California on the west steps of the State Capitol. Over 7,000 people witnessed the ceremony and millions more in the state and around the world watched the event on television.

Governor Schwarzenegger pledged to make the business of his Administration the concerns of the people. While the state faces many challenges, the Governor is confident that by working together we will achieve meaningful reform.

Restoring California's economic engine is Governor Schwarzenegger's top priority. He is also committed to reforming the education system and balancing the state's budget.

This ambitious and aggressive agenda requires a hard working and dedicated team. Governor Schwarzenegger's Administration includes many experienced individuals representing a depth of expertise and a broad range of views.

Governor Schwarzenegger is honored to serve the people of California, and he is proud to lead the state that welcomed him as an immigrant more than three decades ago. Governor Schwarzenegger is committed to providing every Californian the same chance he was given to achieve the American Dream."


********************

"......But Lora Owens, the stepmother of Albert Owens, said the execution should go forward. She said Williams has not accepted responsibility for his murders and has done nothing to redeem himself.

"To be redeemed means to accept responsibility or assume responsibility and not use it as a means of getting out of just punishment," Owens said.

"He chose to be judge, jury and executioner in a matter of seconds, and yet it has taken years for him to come to justice," she said.

Asked whether she was convinced that Williams murdered her stepson, Owens said: "From the facts given to me, I have no doubts." Then she added, "I was not the one who convicted him; I am not the one who sentenced him; I am trying to keep the memory of Albert alive because he is the one who was done wrong."

Owens was working at the 7-Eleven store, which Williams and three others robbed of $120, according to court records."

Attachments

Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Michael:
quote:
Originally posted by Fine:
A very keen political move by Arnold to take the pressure off himself. And, yes it would appear that support to even keep "Tookie" imprisoned but alive is nil...

Fine


...some of the functions of elected officials within California, none of which are suited to protect criminals or criminal activity at the expense of the law abiding.

....not really. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is doing his job as an elected official, namely serving the interest of law abiding citizens, to be safe in their possessions, personal effects, etc., against the unlawful criminal acts of other than law abiding citizens and/or otherwise.

An elected official's primary function is to serve the people, namely law abiding citizens. Since Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is an elected official, he is carrying out his mandated by law, and sworn under oath, duty to protect the rights of the law abiding, first and foremost, and not the rights of known criminals.

**********************

From Arnold Himself....

"Arnold Schwarzenegger Sworn-in As The 38th Governor of California

On the morning of Monday, November 17th, Arnold Schwarzenegger was sworn-in as the 38th Governor of California on the west steps of the State Capitol. Over 7,000 people witnessed the ceremony and millions more in the state and around the world watched the event on television.

Governor Schwarzenegger pledged to make the business of his Administration the concerns of the people. While the state faces many challenges, the Governor is confident that by working together we will achieve meaningful reform.

Restoring California's economic engine is Governor Schwarzenegger's top priority. He is also committed to reforming the education system and balancing the state's budget.

This ambitious and aggressive agenda requires a hard working and dedicated team. Governor Schwarzenegger's Administration includes many experienced individuals representing a depth of expertise and a broad range of views.

Governor Schwarzenegger is honored to serve the people of California, and he is proud to lead the state that welcomed him as an immigrant more than three decades ago. Governor Schwarzenegger is committed to providing every Californian the same chance he was given to achieve the American Dream."


********************

"......But Lora Owens, the stepmother of Albert Owens, said the execution should go forward. She said Williams has not accepted responsibility for his murders and has done nothing to redeem himself.

"To be redeemed means to accept responsibility or assume responsibility and not use it as a means of getting out of just punishment," Owens said.

"He chose to be judge, jury and executioner in a matter of seconds, and yet it has taken years for him to come to justice," she said.

Asked whether she was convinced that Williams murdered her stepson, Owens said: "From the facts given to me, I have no doubts." Then she added, "I was not the one who convicted him; I am not the one who sentenced him; I am trying to keep the memory of Albert alive because he is the one who was done wrong."

Owens was working at the 7-Eleven store, which Williams and three others robbed of $120, according to court records."


Yes..after 'closer' examination I see the release date -- 2/26/2004 -- I now see the strategy is not brand 'new.'

Fine
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksanction:
MBM in the ideal society you are correct.

Unfortunately it depends on what you believe the purpose of law is for, the protection of the citizen or for the criminal? I subscibe to the idea that the original law had been for the protection of the citizen, but lawyers got involved and now it protects the criminals from accountablity and punishment ....


Oy vay! Kill all the lawyers! No one needs a lawyer.
The bottom line:


The DP merely feeds the human need for blood-lust and vengeance. But on the other hand, it silences the voice of a man that MAY be able to reach, and turn around, those headed down the path he plowed.


*I guess many have not evolved as such....i always thought the hickville thinking of backwoods racist white men...who they are colonized to asprie upwards to......wow.....supremacy at its finest....
quote:
Fry his butt.

Put STanley Williams to death now! by Shadow

"We're also finding more and more dope lawyers defending these gangsters in criminal proceedings, I often wonder how a 18 year unemployed Crip can afford a $500 per hour Ivy League attorney. Some of these dope lawyers operate under the guise of wanting to give the poor black inner city youth the best defense possible and claim to be working "pro bono" (for free), more than once they've been found with large sums of un taxable cash in backpacks or duffel bags. These attorneys risk falling victim to the short fuse and violent tendencies of these gangsters, which offers an added motivation to make sure their client is acquitted. Rival gangs, or even disgruntled fellow gangsters have more than once ambushed a dope lawyer and stolen his cash reward."

........and with enough money any Crip, Blood, MS13, otherwise gang set, no good Reverend Jesse Jackson, other no good poverty pimps, and/or our own no good Black elected officials, can hire any number of unethical atttorneys who choose to use their lawful license to practice law to promote the freedom of individuals who have defrauded, stolen from, killed, maimed, and/or robbed the innocent, many of the innocent being other Black people!


Indeed, the mindset of an Isome, Kevin41, the liberal community, those in our community who promote criminals, and misfits, over the law abiding, etc., etc., will not stop Tookie Williams, and/or those who choose to be so criminal from being executed.

Mind you, the many individuals not even mentioned killed by Tookie Williams, the Crips, and/or the Bloods, have been and continue to be other Black people, yet it seems there are individuals in our community who choose to decriminalize or excuse the perpetrators for their very genocidal, and destructive life style.
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yeah....expect the sorry azz house negroes to keep the white man's dick in their mouths and suck hard everytime there is an issue regarding black people...their self-subordination to whites does reek of sexual or parental deference to them....in other words.....black men are not punk azz weaklings with no leadership qualities whatsoever.....these negroes(or sick inbred whites playing games) worship whites whenever or however they can......when a topic comes up.....before I read their post I ask myself, "what would a white boy with klan orientation think?"....and I know what to expect from the CF and Lofton types.....hell when a black person finds themselves agreeing with white separatists on how they view black issues........then a self-examination is in order......and if they do not realize as much....there is nothing I can do for them........
I am sorry everybody (but I am from L.A.) and Stanley Williams deserves to be hanged in public.

I beleive in the death penalty, just not in America...

America has an issue with race and class..

But all other things being equal I beleive in the death penalty..

Does it deter criminals, probably not...

But in 1981 this man brutally murdered an innocnet clerk at a liquor store and then an entire family (father, mother & daughter) all within 72 hours.

Now unless some of you are saying he did not do it....

He deserves to hang until he dies...
If they kill Stanley now they would do nothing more than create a 'savior' for the crips, and a martyr for the black community.

His death would conjure up a unique following, and his presence in death would create a stimulus for the community and a stumblingblock for those who seek retribution. I don't suggest that there will be a 'cult-like' following. I just think that since his sentence is so highly controversial and publicized, the fence-sitters, and the disinterested will be persuaded by the outcome of his death. In many ways his death would work against the justice system.
think about it...

Stanley, to many, including those who nominated him for a nobel peace prize, represents human progress. Relevant to this board is the black communal progress that evident to many, not including you. As he is known for creating the gang, he is understood to be able to relate to those that are nesting in what society calls the breeding grounds for criminal activity. His ablity to relate implies that he is an interconnected intermediary or intercessor.

I'm sure you're not picking up what I'm putting down, so I'll digress.

However, I think that his death will be a small step towards providing an alternative solution to the justice systems one dimensional remedie for blacks in general.

The black community is not as attuned as it should be towards blacks being disproportionately killed by the justice system. I think this will give us an opportunity to focus our agency towards valuing our lives, as it is apparent that no one else will.
quote:
Stanley, to many, including those who nominated him for a nobel peace prize, represents human progress. Relevant to this board is the black communal progress that evident to many, not including you. As he is known for creating the gang, he is understood to be able to relate to those that are nesting in what society calls the breeding grounds for criminal activity. His ablity to relate implies that he is an interconnected intermediary or intercessor.


1. Tookie Williams is hardly Nobel Peace Prize material.

...perhaps Tookie merits this award for doing such a fine job promoting the death of numerous innocent Black people.


2. If left up to California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, slim chance exists where Tookie Williams will not be executed.

"Crips" hobbies included extorting money from non gang members, assaults and robberies, most of which occurred on the school grounds making school a very dangerous place to be.....

....and I'm willing to bet, 99.9999999% of this activity took place in the "Hood", where Black people live, specifically a South Central Los Angeles, etc., etc.

.....had this activity occurred in the Caucasian, Korean, Hispanic, Jamaican, Ethiopian, Islamic, Jewish, Filipino, Samoan, etc., community, instead of gunning down unarmed individuals in "cold blood", Tookie Williams and/or his associates, would have met plenty of resistance.....

.......namely the resistance of other armed individuals shooting back at him, and/or his cohorts.......to which slim chance exists where Tookie, and/or many of his associates, would be alive today!
.

3. No telling how many innocent Black people Tookie Williams and/or others are responsible for maiming, killing, robbing, etc.
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quote:
1. Tookie Williams is hardly Nobel Prize material


This is your opinion. Which is valid and relevant. Unfortunately, not enough people that are relevant to this issue agree. Otherwise there would be no controversy.

quote:
2. Slim chance exists where Tookie Williams will not be executed.


May be true, but not applicable to what I stated. I don't care to calculate his chances for survival, not for me to due. I would like to imagine, however, the impact of his death or life, towards the black community.
HeruStar,

I hear what you are saying, however there are many, many men who are more deserving of your support.
The only thing "Tookie" is connected to is the legacy of the Crips and that is a legacy of fear,drugs and death for his black brothers and sisters. His spawn has done more to destroy the black communities across the globe than some evil whites could have ever envisioned.
Yes he clearly had the leadership ability and vision but he squandered it on evil deeds.
Whitey did not kill "Tookie" Tookie condemned "Tookie."
He is not the second coming or the prophet. He is a false god.
In a world where human progress is foremost, one has to at least contemplate what Stanley can contribute. Let's use Hitler for example; Highly charasmatic, great leader that used his abilities for 'evil deeds'. If Hitler where to all of a sudden, realize his error and change his ways, could he, or could he not, have contributed vastly to the European society?

If we are condemned after realizing our mistakes, then aren't we working against progress?
Well if it were me answering my Hitler question, I would err on the side of caution and blast his brains out his ear.

But hey I just refuse to be socially evolved- I still believe that if we stuck enough murderers heads on pikes to the entrance of our cities (with trite little signs)that there would be a reduction in crime or atleast victims families would feel better Smile.
quote:
Well if it were me answering my Hitler question, I would err on the side of caution and blast his brains out his ear.


MY question was could he contribute?

To which your obvious answer is 'he doen't DESERVE a chance to contribute'.

Well, in light of who deserves what.

I think SOCIETY deserves his(Stanley's) contributions. He has a debt to society. WE all know that the best way to avoid paying a debt is bankruptcy or DEATH. How is his death any compensation? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to owe some of the proceeds from his books, to the families that were wronged. Killing him would be catering to the irrational complexities of a highly EMOTIONAL society. It's not about what's JUSTLY right, or RATIONALLY right, it's about what FEELS right. What's ironic is that in a capitalist driven, profit-oriented society the justice system lets EMOTIONS dictate the supply and demand of harsh penalities whether or not the benefit outways the cost or vice versa.
quote:
people make their choices, and oftentimes, suffer the consequences of those choices.


Yeah, but these 'consequences' are our creation. They are our means of satisfying our thirst for blood and revenge. The death penalty is a consequence without any truly socially agreed upon and defined intentions. Before we can even compromise as to what PURPOSE it serves to kill Stanley, we begin discussing when and how he dies.<--o.k. o.k. this is all neither here nor there...

Stanley represents (from a societal point of view) a criminal that has been rehabilitated. When they let him publish those books, when they produced that movie, they let the community see his atonement, which signifies a remorseful and rehabilitated individual. If and when they sentence him to death, the justice system will be viewed as one that not only has a lack of interest in rehabilitating criminals, but is anti-rehabilitative in that it KILLS it's publicly rehabilitated criminals.
HeruStar,
quote:
If and when they sentence him to death, the justice system will be viewed as one that not only has a lack of interest in rehabilitating criminals, but is anti-rehabilitative in that it KILLS it's publicly rehabilitated criminals.


Not to cavalier about it but,.....yeah, it just might send a message, to people who might in full knowledge, know that they're going in the same direction Tookie had taken.
so we are to put someone to death in hopes that it 'MIGHT' send a message? What if his death does not send the message that is intended? Are we to revive him, and try a different angle? He death is absolute, but the "message" is not. Since the message is incumbent upon how society responds emotionally, whether it be fear, which is thought to lead to deterrence, whether it be a spontaneous joy that dwells on antecedent actions that temporarily satisfy one with a present sense of justice with no regards for ethical consequences of the future, we can't expect the 'message' to be concrete. Emotions are shifty, but rationalism persists through, under, or around irrational emotions. One can expect that the 'message' will evolve into a shameful disgusts in the past and present actions of the justice system.
If I were you jefftec, Blacksanction, etc., etc., ..........

I would leave the floor in useless discussion to the Nmaginates, the Kevin41s, the Empty Purnatas, the Isomes, the Fines, etc., etc., to have their own in house discussion on the merits of:

A. worthless AA benefits.

B. doomed for failure social welfare as applied in Black community issues.

C. giving credence to the voice of anything else but Democracy.

D. damn the Republican Party, and/or anyone else of credibility, let us give praise and thanks to the sleazy, the criminal, and/or the egregiously incompetent.

E. Tookie Williams deserves both the Nobel Peace Prize and another chance to walk the streets again, but as for any truly innocent and/or law abiding Black people, or otherwise, who seek equity, let them rot in Hell.

F. There is no such thing as criminal activity, sleaze, or greed in the Black community, and if anything like this exists it must all be the fault of racist Caucasians, the Bush Administration, the Republican Party, etc.

Mind you since the 60s the Black community has been under the spell of the Democratic Party, liberal ideology, etc., etc.,

......more or less left to run its own course, directed by incompetent individuals affiliated with the Democratic Party.....

....but still, in spite of this reality, it is surely the fault of racist Caucasians, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, the Bush Administration, President George Bush, etc., etc., that the Black community continues to be the most poverty stricken, void of competent representation, many times criminal, moving very fast in the wrong direction community within the U.S.


Sincerely,

Michael Lofton
quote:
Originally posted by Isome:
quote:
Originally posted by jefftec:
...yeah, it just might send a message, to people who might in full knowledge, know that they're going in the same direction Tookie had taken.


It's been proven that the death penalty is not a deterent. It serves no purpose other than revenge.


And if I was a member of that family that he so viciously slaughtered, revenge is exactly what I would want. The difference is that I would want to pull the handle.

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