quote:As African people we are tribal by nature, because of the Diaspora we are so mixed up that we now associate by common attributes
Tribal by nature????????
retarded.
Tribal by nature????????
retarded.
Tribal by nature????????
retarded.
As I've watched this thread develop, I've been trying to articulate my own problems with J&J... I think that task has just been performed for me...
quote:I wonder how many people saw the report that says that being Black and Smart means that you lose friends, it was on 20/20 and in the book Freakanomics. That book also extolled similarities of being a Beauty Pageant contestant and a Drug Dealer. That 20/20 episode had these Black kids getting called names because they were smart. Sad testament on the state of Black America where being mediocore seems to be all the rage and totally in fashion. I say be a trend setter and be smart.
Being educated, staying out of trouble, carrying yourself with self respect, and coming from a family that teaches what is needed to survive in our world is not why Black folks are accused of "acting white."
Black folks who use the term "acting white" do so because they do not have the language to express what it is they know / believe to be true about the motives of their brethren. Most Black people know when they are in the company of a brother or sister who is uncomfortable wearing Black skin. The term acting white has nothing to do with the value systems you mentioned... the term acting white is reserved for the phenotypical African who openly rejects an empowering Black agenda, who prefers to define themselves as "other," who talks about living in a "color blind society" - and many, many, more types of anti-Black, anti African behavior. Normally those called out for acting white claim to be characterized as such because they are somehow the embodiment of all things good and productive - and this is a belief rooted in euro centric mythology... a belief that must be challenged at every turn... an ideal that is simply not true and allows Black folks to escape without having to look at themselves.
Our people know the enemy, even if they are are a Supreme Court Justice, Sec of State, or Chairman of the Joints Chief of Staff. We know when we are around self loathing, self deprecating negroes who define themselves through the blue eyes of white supremacist thought. I know when I am in the company of safe Black folks - and I stay away from handkerchief head, knee-slapping, over laughing, grinning, buck dancing, eye bulging negroes who needed the validation of white folks in order to get by.
I was a member of J&J (until I wised up), went to a fancy private school, got mostly A's and a few B's, 1400 SAT score (which was low in my school), played all types of sports including lacrosse (I walked around the hood with a lax stick in my hand) play chess, acted in school plays, carried books, studied Shotokan, went to college, pursuing a Ph.d... and I aint ever been accused by my people for acting white.
Black folks know a traitor when they see one!
Honestbrother, 
get a life 
, . Why should we lower the price so folk could get in. Being called nerd is like being called White. 
Oh by the way, did anybody check out Shango67, the only other person besides me and MBM to be former J&J partisipants. If it is really his picture, he could not pass the paper bag test either.
And he so proves the point that Everything Aint for Everybody, he hated J&J. It is about values.
get a life , . Why should we lower the price so folk could get in. Being called nerd is like being called White. Oh by the way, did anybody check out Shango67, the only other person besides me and MBM to be former J&J partisipants. If it is really his picture, he could not pass the paper bag test either.
And he so proves the point that Everything Aint for Everybody, he hated J&J. It is about values.quote:Originally posted by Nikcara:
Honestbrother,
Oh by the way, did anybody check out Shango67, the only other person besides me and MBM to be former J&J partisipants. If it is really his picture, he could not pass the paper bag test either.
Nikcara, I have a Ph.D. (among other graduate degrees) - more than enough education for your little club - I can afford membership,... I even live in the 'right neighborhood'....hell, I'm a 'nerd' myself... I wasn't trying to call you a name... My point was that there are ways of remaining exclusive without being an economic snob - if educational values were all you really cared about...
But I doubt very much if educational values are all you care about ...and so I wouldn't be caught dead socializing with negroes like you...
quote:If it is really his picture, he could not pass the paper bag test either. And he so proves the point that Everything Aint for Everybody, he hated J&J. It is about values.
My acceptance to J&J was based upon status... dad was a VP for a major airline and moms wrote computer programs used by the military for Grumman Aerospace. Fact is, there was very few dark folks (in that chapter) and other Jack and Jillians reminded me that I was dark EVERYDAY!
You should lower the prices for people to get in because there are brilliant kids (who are good and wholesome) from lower class neighborhoods who could use the enrichment and encouragement... If that's what you were really about... 
I was one of them...
I was one of them...
quote:Originally posted by Shango67:
Being educated, staying out of trouble, carrying yourself with self respect, and coming from a family that teaches what is needed to survive in our world is not why Black folks are accused of "acting white."
Black folks who use the term "acting white" do so because they do not have the language to express what it is they know / believe to be true about the motives of their brethren. Most Black people know when they are in the company of a brother or sister who is uncomfortable wearing Black skin. The term acting white has nothing to do with the value systems you mentioned... the term acting white is reserved for the phenotypical African who openly rejects an empowering Black agenda, who prefers to define themselves as "other," who talks about living in a "color blind society" - and many, many, more types of anti-Black, anti African behavior. Normally those called out for acting white claim to be characterized as such because they are somehow the embodiment of all things good and productive - and this is a belief rooted in euro centric mythology... a belief that must be challenged at every turn... an ideal that is simply not true and allows Black folks to escape without having to look at themselves.
Our people know the enemy, even if they are are a Supreme Court Justice, Sec of State, or Chairman of the Joints Chief of Staff. We know when we are around self loathing, self deprecating negroes who define themselves through the blue eyes of white supremacist thought. I know when I am in the company of safe Black folks - and I stay away from handkerchief head, knee-slapping, over laughing, grinning, buck dancing, eye bulging negroes who needed the validation of white folks in order to get by.
I was a member of J&J (until I wised up), went to a fancy private school, got mostly A's and a few B's, 1400 SAT score (which was low in my school), played all types of sports including lacrosse (I walked around the hood with a lax stick in my hand) play chess, acted in school plays, carried books, studied Shotokan, went to college, pursuing a Ph.d... and I aint ever been accused by my people for acting white.
Black folks know a traitor when they see one!
Nice...
quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
there are ways of remaining exclusive without being an economic snob - if educational values were all you really cared about...
Exactly....
You assume to much Sir. Since I daresay, the feeling is more than mutual.quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Nikcara, I have a Ph.D. (among other graduatee degrees)- more than enough education for your little club - I can afford membership,...
I even live in the 'right neighborhood'
My point was that there are ways of remaining exclusive without being an economic snob
if educational values were all you really cared about...
But I doubt very much if educational values are all you care about...and so I wouldn't be caught dead socializing with negroes like you...
quote:Originally posted by Nikcara:You assume to much Sir. Since I daresay, the feeling is more than mutual.quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Nikcara, I have a Ph.D. (among other graduatee degrees)
My point was that there are ways of remaining exclusive without being an economic snob
But I doubt very much if educational values are all you care about
Thank you for pulling out that nasty little 'tude you got there and illustrating for all to see reasons other than jealousy for people not to like J&J... You even convinced me and I was a fence-sitter... Nice going, chief
I'm outty!...
To reduce the criticisms of the J&J organization to jealousy wreaks, of dishonesty and laziness, homie.
I've stayed away from this intentionally, but I have a question or two:
From the Jack & Jill website:
OUR GOALS
The goals, found primarily in the objectives of Jack & Jill of America, Inc. serve as our constant guides. They are as follows:
"¢ To create a medium of contact for children which will stimulate their growth and development.
"¢ To provide constructive educational, cultural, civic, recreational, social and service programs for children
"¢ To aid mothers in learning more about their children by careful study
"¢ To seek for ALL children the same advantages we desire for our own
"¢ To support all national legislation aimed at bettering conditions for all children.
This appears to be opposite what former members here are saying about the organization. The organization's goals make no mention of status or wealth as prerequisites. No references are made to aiming for Black children living in predominately White communities. The goal appears to be to improve the quality of life for all African-American children.
Based on what the organization submits, is HB's request for reasonable dues valid? Don't smart, impoverished children need this message as well?:
From the Jack & Jill website:
OUR GOALS
The goals, found primarily in the objectives of Jack & Jill of America, Inc. serve as our constant guides. They are as follows:
"¢ To create a medium of contact for children which will stimulate their growth and development.
"¢ To provide constructive educational, cultural, civic, recreational, social and service programs for children
"¢ To aid mothers in learning more about their children by careful study
"¢ To seek for ALL children the same advantages we desire for our own
"¢ To support all national legislation aimed at bettering conditions for all children.
This appears to be opposite what former members here are saying about the organization. The organization's goals make no mention of status or wealth as prerequisites. No references are made to aiming for Black children living in predominately White communities. The goal appears to be to improve the quality of life for all African-American children.
Based on what the organization submits, is HB's request for reasonable dues valid? Don't smart, impoverished children need this message as well?:
quote:J&J is about taking your kids to the next level, letting them know on in very real way on an intimate level that they are not alone, that being educated does not make you less Black and that living some subsistence lifestyle is not the only future for Black people, that you can and should enjoy all this world has to offer.
I recalled (when i was about 8 or so), certain family members wanted all of the children to join J&J.
We were told that we would be able to meet other children, of doctors, lawyers, etc..............but for me and the others, we didnt care.
It was a big fight....which ended, with no one joining.
The difference between then and now, is the fact that there are more AA with degrees, more doctors, lawyers, engineers, phds, etc.........and its not uncommon meeting and associating with people who are just like yourself.
I can understand this happening years ago.....but im not too sure, if it makes a difference today.
We were told that we would be able to meet other children, of doctors, lawyers, etc..............but for me and the others, we didnt care.
It was a big fight....which ended, with no one joining.
The difference between then and now, is the fact that there are more AA with degrees, more doctors, lawyers, engineers, phds, etc.........and its not uncommon meeting and associating with people who are just like yourself.
I can understand this happening years ago.....but im not too sure, if it makes a difference today.
quote:Originally posted by ddouble:
This appears to be opposite what former members here are saying about the organization. The organization's goals make no mention of status or wealth as prerequisites. No references are made to aiming for Black children living in predominately White communities. The goal appears to be to improve the quality of life for all African-American children.
Based on what the organization submits, is HB's request for reasonable dues valid? Don't smart, impoverished children need this message as well?:quote:J&J is about taking your kids to the next level, letting them know on in very real way on an intimate level that they are not alone, that being educated does not make you less Black and that living some subsistence lifestyle is not the only future for Black people, that you can and should enjoy all this world has to offer.
quote:Originally posted by virtue:
As in most organizations.....
there is what is preached....
and then there is what's practiced......
quote:Originally posted by Shango67:
Being educated, staying out of trouble, carrying yourself with self respect, and coming from a family that teaches what is needed to survive in our world is not why Black folks are accused of "acting white."
Are you sure, because I have heard it more than once and not on this site. Oh and when I did hear it, it was not about me too...
Black folks who use the term "acting white" do so because they do not have the language to express what it is they know / believe to be true about the motives of their brethren.
The term acting white has nothing to do with the value systems you mentioned... Disagree on that because that is not how the term has been used prior to your, novel interpretation....the term acting white is reserved for the phenotypical African who openly rejects an empowering Black agenda, who prefers to define themselves as "other," who talks about living in a "color blind society" - and many, many, more types of anti-Black, anti African behavior. Shango, you should really stop talking about Justic Thomas and Secretary of State Rice like that., it's not nice....... I personally feel quite sorry for those person and those of thier ilk, but that is thier cross to bear.
Normally those called out for acting white claim to be characterized as such because they are somehow the embodiment of all things good and productive - and this is a belief rooted in euro centric mythology... a belief that must be challenged at every turn...I agree an ideal that is simply not true and allows Black folks to escape without having to look at themselves.
Our people know the enemy, even if they are are a Supreme Court Justice, Sec of State, or Chairman of the Joints Chief of Staff. We know when we are around self loathing, self deprecating negroes who define themselves through the blue eyes of white supremacist thought. I agree whole heartedly.
I know when I am in the company of safe Black folks - and I stay away from handkerchief head, knee-slapping, over laughing, grinning, buck dancing, eye bulging negroes who needed the validation of white folks in order to get by.
I was a member of J&J (until I wised up), went to a fancy private school, got mostly A's and a few B's, 1400 SAT score (which was low in my school)[funny I don't even remember my SAT score, but 22 years ago, I digress....., played all types of sports including lacrosse (I walked around the hood with a lax stick in my hand)By the way, did they know what the lax stick was in the hood?...Just asking...... play chess, acted in school plays, carried books, studied ShotokanAmen, I am glad you escaped the nightmare, you are unique but with all of that are you sure it was never said behind your back.....
Just an observation.
Black folks know a traitor when they see one!
Yes, we do know the traitor, and they come often in sheeps clothing. Often screaming how Black they are, but in reality, they are just poverty pimps
Everything Aint for Everybody, he hated J&J.
Yes, it was based on status, but my point was that the hue of your skin was not a disqualifying attribute or you would not have gotten in even based on status. It also seems, that you were critized for being too Black while playing Lacrosse... I feel for you sound like you had a messed up chapter. Fortunatly that was not my experience. I had enough problems with white kids.
quote:Originally posted by Shango67:
My acceptance to J&J was based upon status... dad was a VP for a major airline and moms wrote computer programs used by the military for Grumman Aerospace. Fact is, there was very few dark folks (in that chapter) and other Jack and Jillians reminded me that I was dark EVERYDAY!
Yes, it was based on status, but my point was that the hue of your skin was not a disqualifying attribute or you would not have gotten in even based on status. It also seems, that you were critized for being too Black while playing Lacrosse... I feel for you sound like you had a messed up chapter. Fortunatly that was not my experience. I had enough problems with white kids.
quote:Originally posted by Nikcara:quote:Originally posted by Shango67:
Black folks know a traitor when they see one!
Yes, we do know the traitor, and they come often in sheeps clothing. Often screaming how Black they are, but in reality, they are just poverty pimps
That is a profound statement that speaks much truth. These are the ones that smile in your face while getting the dagger ready to stab you in the back
quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Thank you for pulling out that nasty little 'tude you got there and illustrating for all to see reasons other than jealousy for people not to like J&J... You even convinced me and I was a fence-sitter... Nice going, chief
I'm outty!...
You get attitude with me and then I can't respond in kind?
Now who is
quote:Originally posted by Nikcara:quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Thank you for pulling out that nasty little 'tude you got there and illustrating for all to see reasons other than jealousy for people not to like J&J... You even convinced me and I was a fence-sitter... Nice going, chief
I'm outty!...
You get attitude with me and then I can't respond in kind?
Now who is
When you confuse "values/love of education" and "finances" (as if less wealthy people can't love learning) and then label all critics "jealous" as you did in the post to which I initially responded, I call that putting on some la-di-da A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E...
Live with it.
quote:Originally posted by ddouble:
I've stayed away from this intentionally, but I have a question or two:
From the Jack & Jill website:
OUR GOALS
The goals, found primarily in the objectives of Jack & Jill of America, Inc. serve as our constant guides. They are as follows:
"¢ To create a medium of contact for children which will stimulate their growth and development.
"¢ To provide constructive educational, cultural, civic, recreational, social and service programs for children
"¢ To aid mothers in learning more about their children by careful study
"¢ To seek for ALL children the same advantages we desire for our own
"¢ To support all national legislation aimed at bettering conditions for all children.
This appears to be opposite what former members here are saying about the organization. The organization's goals make no mention of status or wealth as prerequisites. No references are made to aiming for Black children living in predominately White communities. The goal appears to be to improve the quality of life for all African-American children.
Based on what the organization submits, is HB's request for reasonable dues valid? Don't smart, impoverished children need this message as well?:quote:J&J is about taking your kids to the next level, letting them know on in very real way on an intimate level that they are not alone, that being educated does not make you less Black and that living some subsistence lifestyle is not the only future for Black people, that you can and should enjoy all this world has to offer.
Great point.
By being exclusive, they can't expect to give ALL children the advantages as their mission states.
quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
When you confuse "values/love of education" and "finances" (as if less wealthy people can't love learning) and then label all critics "jealous" as you did in the post to which I initially responded, I call that putting on some la-di-da A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E...
Live with it.
I have confused nothing, and YOU have not read my comments. As to attitude, I give what I receive. Again Sir, you assume to your detriment. Also maybe you should not edit your comments so much after the fact. Just an observation.
quote:Yes, we do know the traitor, and they come often in sheeps clothing. Often screaming how Black they are, but in reality, they are just poverty pimps
Poverty pimps?????
Sounds like white speak to me.
quote:Originally posted by Nikcara:
I have confused nothing, and YOU have not read my comments. As to attitude, I give what I receive. Again Sir, you assume to your detriment.
I read your post alright...I just reread it... I missed this the first time:
quote:
Those should be things people want for their children, but for some on this site, education =/= Black People.
Perhaps you assume to your detriment?.... And perhaps you should also read your own comments. I don't know about others but I found it really sorta off-putting (i.e., offensive). Even moreso the second time around...
quote:
Also maybe you should not edit your comments so much after the fact. Just an observation.
Implying what?
quote:
J&J is about taking your kids to the next level, letting them know on in very real way on an intimate level that they are not alone, that being educated does not make you less Black and that living some subsistence lifestyle is not the only future for Black people, that you can and should enjoy all this world has to offer.
This reminds me...I once dated a woman who grew up in J&J... She seemed to have this idea that she was entitled to a husband that would subsidize day trips to Macy's and whatever foreign travel she desired... I didn't like her attitude either...
Anyway, as for whether or not you've confused "values/love of education" and "finances" (as if less wealthy people can't love learning), you could have fooled me. You seem to be consistently equating the love of learning with high financial status.
Maybe you're right... J&J - and many of its members - aren't for everybody...
quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
......you've confused "values/love of education" and "finances" (as if less wealthy people can't love learning).....
........You seem to be consistently equating the love of learning with high financial status.
Maybe you're right... J&J - and many of its members - aren't for everybody...
My problem with elitest organizations is these organizations often produce the negroes that represent us in mainstream america. These are the same negroes you see all over the tv carrying the water for the white man and telling everyone how bad blacks are , their situation is their fault and if they just pulled themselves up by their bootstraps they will be ok. But these people often dont live in the communities with the majority of black people and often times never associate with the everyday common black people who are the backbone of black culture. If you really look at it the black people who really made a difference for the masses of black people came from amoungs them. Even Jesus lived amoungst the poor. But somehow people are trying to push this talented tenth bullshyt over on people. What self respecting black person who loves their people would join an organization thats exclusive of the masses of its people? and can someone please tell me where in the hell did the name Jack and Jill come from?
J&J is for Black kids in all white areas to meet other Black kids in the same situation. So that those Black kids know that they are not the only ones going through a Norman Rockwell picture and you should know the one of which I speak. Call elitist, call it what ever you like. The point is that it is positive for most kids that participate in it. Funny thing is that for all the people on this thread that down J&J there are many more who still want to join. Wonder why?
People socialize in circles that they create all the time, most are not as formal as J&J but they do exist. You all know them well. Cliques in churches, choirs, political organization, lodges, reading groups, whatever you like, they are all socially limiting and self-serving. There are always people who want in but are excluded for whatever arbitrary and capricious reason. What gives a clique power is its ability to exclude. Not a single person on this thread who complained about J&J never once said F*** J&J, I am going to start my own club. I even made the explicit suggestion, but nobody took the bait. Be a part of the solution, Not a member of the sidelines who watches life go by.
So instead a lighting a candle, you all curse the night. Grow Up.
People socialize in circles that they create all the time, most are not as formal as J&J but they do exist. You all know them well. Cliques in churches, choirs, political organization, lodges, reading groups, whatever you like, they are all socially limiting and self-serving. There are always people who want in but are excluded for whatever arbitrary and capricious reason. What gives a clique power is its ability to exclude. Not a single person on this thread who complained about J&J never once said F*** J&J, I am going to start my own club. I even made the explicit suggestion, but nobody took the bait. Be a part of the solution, Not a member of the sidelines who watches life go by.
So instead a lighting a candle, you all curse the night. Grow Up.
quote:Originally posted by Nikcara:
J&J is for Black kids in all white areas to meet other Black kids in the same situation. So that those Black kids know that they are not the only ones going through a Norman Rockwell picture and you should know the one of which I speak. Call elitist, call it what ever you like. The point is that it is positive for most kids that participate in it. Funny thing is that for all the people on this thread that down J&J there are many more who still want to join. Wonder why?
People socialize in circles that they create all the time, most are not as formal as J&J but they do exist. You all know them well. Cliques in churches, choirs, political organization, lodges, reading groups, whatever you like, they are all socially limiting and self-serving. There are always people who want in but are excluded for whatever arbitrary and capricious reason. What gives a clique power is its ability to exclude. Not a single person on this thread who complained about J&J never once said F*** J&J, I am going to start my own club. I even made the explicit suggestion, but nobody took the bait. Be a part of the solution, Not a member of the sidelines who watches life go by.
So instead a lighting a candle, you all curse the night. Grow Up.
I didn't jump up to volunteer to start my own clique because I really despise cliquishness... it fundamentally cuts against my grain... I feel quite good just being me... I have no need whatsoever for a club to enhance my self-esteem... I am the source of my power...
I'll leave you to revel in your club and its power to exclude...
Grow up yourself ....
quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I didn't jump up to volunteer to start my own clique because I really despise cliquishness... it fundamentally cuts against my grain... I feel quite good just being me... I have no need whatsoever for a club to enhance my self-esteem...
I'll leave you to revel in your power to exclude...
Grow up yourself ....
....still curising the night Honestbrother.I guess that the sidelines are where you want to be. Question, were you a male cheerleader in college or just a booster
quote:Not a single person on this thread who complained about J&J never once said F*** J&J, I am going to start my own club. I even made the explicit suggestion, but nobody took the bait. Be a part of the solution, Not a member of the sidelines who watches life go by.
The reason why no one "took the bait" because starting a "club" off the negative energy of Jack and Jill would be a sophmoric event.
And be a part of what solution? Jack and Jill isn't part of any solution for Black peoples. It part of the problem.
quote:I guess that the sidelines are where you want to be. Question, were you a male cheerleader in college or just a booster
From where I stand, it seems to me that Honest Brother used his time in college properly. For example, he would have never used the words "male cheerleader" together, cause he is learned enough to know that a cheerleader, by definition, is not gender specific.
quote:Originally posted by Nikcara:quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I didn't jump up to volunteer to start my own clique because I really despise cliquishness... it fundamentally cuts against my grain... I feel quite good just being me... I have no need whatsoever for a club to enhance my self-esteem...
I'll leave you to revel in your power to exclude...
Grow up yourself ....
I guess that the sidelines are where you want to be. Question, were you a male cheerleader in college or just a booster
Neither... I was too busy being a student... I graduated summa cum laude and am a member of several national honor societies... and I've never particularly cared for college sports... I'm happy to report that as an undergraduate, graduate student, and now as university faculty member I've never attended (or even watched) a single college sporting event
Question: Have you always been a trifling bitch or is that just recent?
quote:Originally posted by Shango67:quote:Not a single person on this thread who complained about J&J never once said F*** J&J, I am going to start my own club. I even made the explicit suggestion, but nobody took the bait. Be a part of the solution, Not a member of the sidelines who watches life go by.
The reason why no one "took the bait" because starting a "club" off the negative energy of Jack and Jill would be a sophmoric event.
And be a part of what solution? Jack and Jill isn't part of any solution for Black peoples. It part of the problem.
We already have too many negroes trying to feel special by joining their little clubs... instead of doing something for the people that actually has merit...
PS: Ever notice that gangs are cliques too?
quote:J&J is for Black kids in all white areas to meet other Black kids in the same situation. So that those Black kids know that they are not the only ones going through a Norman Rockwell picture and you should know the one of which I speak.
Go back to my post of goals directly from the Jack & Jill site. No where does it mention the purpose described in your quote...
Many times, people join social clubs to gain/maintain status & network. If an organization is unreasonably exclusionary, don't try to rationalize why. Just accept the flaw (if you like the status quo) or work to correct the problem.
MBM... you were a member of J&J??!!
I never even heard of it until I got to college...
I have just scanned through this thread, so I haven't really gotten all points of view...
MBM would you recommend it for your kids? Would anybody else? Shango you don't have to answer, I think your view is pretty clear...
I have a cousin that's a member, she and her member friends so seem to be somewhat elitist... I haven't really known anybody else to be that way though...
I never even heard of it until I got to college...
I have just scanned through this thread, so I haven't really gotten all points of view...
MBM would you recommend it for your kids? Would anybody else? Shango you don't have to answer, I think your view is pretty clear...
I have a cousin that's a member, she and her member friends so seem to be somewhat elitist... I haven't really known anybody else to be that way though...
I think it's important to differentiate between intent and impact here. There can be no question that the impact of J&J is elitist. IMO to think that it is an objective of the group however - to segregate from other African Americans - is just inaccurate. For better or for worse, professional blacks have a set of common experiences and interests that - like any group - are best addressed by others who share those same experiences. For example, trying to survive as an African American in corporate America can be a tremendously taxing thing. The commiseration and counsel of someone in that same boat can be of great benefit. Fighting for your black child in a white school is a real challenge for many African American families. Trading best practices and just generally providing support for others with the same challenges can be tremendously important. Now the impact of that interaction is - no doubt - exclusionary and elitist (if you don't share the same experience you aren't a part of that "circle"), but can one really say that the intent of that interaction is to be such?
HB - I think I read that you went to Princeton. Your intent was certainly not elitist, but can you argue that the impact of attending that university is not?
We're all communicating via the internet - an activity that - while less so every year - is still an elitist, exclusive activity. There are plenty of African Americans who do not have the luxury to "chill" online here. Our impact may be elitist, but do you believe that our intent is to segregate ourselves from other black folks? Are we trying to "get away" from other black folks by communicating online where they can't get to us?
Of course there are some people who do things for the wrong reasons. Of course I'm sure J&J has its fair share of those folks as well. That said, I just think it is wholly unfair to try to judge the intent of an entire organization by looking narrowly at its impact - particularly when there seem to be other unrelated issues/perceptions that might be impacting the perception of J&J as well. Beyond that, I can tell you without question that every family that I have ever had experience with in Jack & Jill is as committed to the uplift of African America as anyone else here. To try to judge them as human beings (or as African Americans) based upon the narrow sliver of life that is their involvement in J&J is just unfair.
HB - I think I read that you went to Princeton. Your intent was certainly not elitist, but can you argue that the impact of attending that university is not?
We're all communicating via the internet - an activity that - while less so every year - is still an elitist, exclusive activity. There are plenty of African Americans who do not have the luxury to "chill" online here. Our impact may be elitist, but do you believe that our intent is to segregate ourselves from other black folks? Are we trying to "get away" from other black folks by communicating online where they can't get to us?
Of course there are some people who do things for the wrong reasons. Of course I'm sure J&J has its fair share of those folks as well. That said, I just think it is wholly unfair to try to judge the intent of an entire organization by looking narrowly at its impact - particularly when there seem to be other unrelated issues/perceptions that might be impacting the perception of J&J as well. Beyond that, I can tell you without question that every family that I have ever had experience with in Jack & Jill is as committed to the uplift of African America as anyone else here. To try to judge them as human beings (or as African Americans) based upon the narrow sliver of life that is their involvement in J&J is just unfair.
quote:Shango you don't have to answer, I think your view is pretty clear...
Audioguy. I don't take directives from people who have stolen my moniker, muthafucka.
"I am a bad muthafucka" is my theme song.
quote:Originally posted by MBM:
HB - I think I read that you went to Princeton. Your intent was certainly not elitist, but can you argue that the impact of attending that university is not?
By the way, I rarely tell people this in real life... and I avoid alumni events like the plague... I can act the part of a snob ... but I really am not...
MBM, I perfectly well understand the potential benefit of an organization like J&J ... I perfectly well understand the benefits of people who share similar experiences pooling together their knowledge, resources, and support... and I realize that it's the very nature of the game that some will be excluded...
I'm not opposed in theory to this... I'm not even opposed in practice...
But what I really don't like is the self-consciously exclusionary attitudes that I see actively cultivated in certain circles... ahem... cough... ahem ... and the phony ass sense of entitled superiority that I detect coming from some quarters....
Yes... I'm a Princeton grad... and one of my best friends is a former homeless man who now lives in a housing project...
quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Yes... I'm a Princeton grad... and one of my best friends is a former homeless man who now lives in a housing project...
And you perfectly illustrate my point. Just because you busted your ass and did what it took to get in (an out) of Princeton doesn't mean that - by definition - you are an elitist snob. That one experience doesn't define who you are - despite the fact that millions of people are rejected in trying to accomplish what you did in going there.
Similarly, just because someone puts their kids in J&J doesn't mean that they are necessarily an elitist snob either.quote:Originally posted by MBM:quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Yes... I'm a Princeton grad... and one of my best friends is a former homeless man who now lives in a housing project...
And you perfectly illustrate my point. Just because you busted your ass and did what it took to get in (an out) of Princeton doesn't mean that - by definition - you are an elitist snob. That one experience doesn't define who you are - despite the fact that millions of people are rejected in trying to accomplish what you did in going there.
Agreed... point well taken...