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I'm sure about J&J in particular.

I would have to see a few meetings and meet a few more people to judge whether it's elitist or not.

I wouldn't call it elitist just because there isn't a plethora of low-income folks in the org, though. Especially when looking at why the group was formed, I don't think it should be expected to accept everyone.

I'd love to have my children in an organization like Jack and Jill if we were living the upper-class life.

Not to teach them the Black experience or how to relate to Blacks.

That'd be like a WASP taking his kids to a country club to learn Whiteness.

You're not going to learn about a huge scope of people by being in a club where everyone has a white-collar parent and is the only Black kid on the school. It's not going to help the child better relate to someone with a different life.

But the club is good for giving the kids people like them who they could relate in a world where many White people associate Blacks with ghettos and many Blacks associate privileged Blacks as not really Black.

I think that with an organization like Jack and Jill the kids will learn to scoff when Whites say, "You're not like other Black people," rather than take it as a compliment. And learn to take, "only White people talk like that," as ignorance.

It's a group where the children fit.

And there is a chance for networking.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
I am troubled to hear members of this site decry the vaulue of a Black organization like Jack and Jill which is positive. bang


Nikcara, I'm not condemning J&J. And I believe such organizations can be positive and be good for its participants. But like any organization it has its problems... one of them being its relation to lower income blacks.

Neither am I saying authentic blackness means working class. I'm just saying that as someone who comes from the working class I find some middle class blacks to be snobbish and petty -especially when it comes to memberships in exclusive organizations...
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so how does that prepare them to relate to the masses of black people who dont have the white collar upbringing? Does it matter . Why does black poor and working class people always associated with Ghetto. People sound more and more like Bill Cosby everyday, especially those who think they have made it to the country club lifestyle. Why not bring poor and working class children into this evironment?
quote:
Originally posted by tmonster:
Do they still have the paperbag test?

You know I was trying not to mention that.....

it was a reality for me personally in Georgia...

though not with J&J.....

the paperbag test....... was applied here in Georgia by many members of the organization.... tthough not all..... but enough that it was a common practice.....

I do not think skin color is an issue any more.... at least not to the extent it used to be.... I think income and status was and still is a significant factor....


which is why.... it's good to instill principles of pride.... etc....

but.... those principles of pride in organizations such as these are reserved to be taught for the selected few who already had enough pride in themselves (and the right connections with others) to work towards the height of their industry or society.....


It's funny how we don't really discuss painful things like this in our community....

things like this have worked to double destroy the self esteem of many.......

Peace,
Virtue
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quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
quote:
Originally posted by tmonster:
Do they still have the paperbag test?

You know I was trying not to mention that.....

it was a reality for me personally in Georgia...

though not with J&J.....

the paperbag test....... was applied here in Georgia by many members of the organization.... tthough not all..... but enough that it was a common practice.....



It's funny how we don't really discuss painful things like this in our community....

things like this have worked to double destroy the self esteem of many.......

Peace,
Virtue


Virtue,
You are so right, we don't discuss the hurtful things we have done to ourselves. We are quick to point out what the white man has done to us but we very seldom discuss what we do to ourselves. I am ashamed to say that I have heard of the paper bag test. Not only with the J&J but with other black organizations. For example my church, I heard it said by someone I respect that a presbyterian is a baptist that has made it. In addition, my presbyterian church has a history of only light-skin folks were excepted or invited to be members in the early 1900's.

Fasinating article on the subject below:
By BILL MAXWELL, Times Staff Writer
© St. Petersburg Times
published August 31, 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Each year, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission receives about 85,000 discrimination cases, a phenomenon to be expected in a society that touts itself as a "melting pot."

Many of these cases involve the complaints of minority groups against majority groups. We rarely expect a member of a minority group to discriminate against someone else in the same group. But that is exactly what happens among African-Americans.

More than any other minority group in the United States, blacks discriminate against one another. The discrimination, called "colorism," is based on skin tone: whether a person is dark-skinned or light-skinned or in the broad middle somewhere.

Most African-Americans refuse to discuss this self-destructive problem even in private. According to the EEOC, though, the number of such cases are steadily increasing, jumping from 413 in fiscal year 1994 to 1,382 in 2002, a figure that represents about 3 percent of all cases the agency receives yearly.

The most recent case making news in the black press involves two employees of an Applebee's restaurant in Jonesboro, Ga., near Atlanta. There, Dwight Burch, a dark-skinned waiter, who has left the restaurant, filed a lawsuit against Applebee's and his light-skinned African-American manager.

In the suit, Burch alleged that during his three-month stint, the manager repeatedly referred to him as a "black monkey" and a "tar baby." The manager also told Burch to bleach his skin, and Burch was fired after he refused to do so, the suit states.

Colorism has a long and ugly history among American blacks, dating back to slavery, when light-skinned blacks were automatically given preferential treatment by plantation owners and their henchmen.

Colorism's history is fascinating: Fair-skinned slaves automatically enjoyed plum jobs in the master's house, if they had to work at all. Many traveled throughout the nation and abroad with their masters and their families. They were exposed to the finer things, and many became educated as a result. Their darker-tone peers toiled in the fields. They were the ones who were beaten, burned and hanged, the ones permanently condemned to be the lowest of the low in U.S. society. For them, even learning - reading, 'riting, 'rithmetic - was illegal.

When slavery ended, light-skinned blacks established social organizations that barred darker ex-slaves. Elite blacks of the early 20th century were fair-skinned almost to the person. Even today, most blacks in high positions have fair skin tones, and most blacks who do menial jobs or are in prison are dark. Believe it or not, popular black magazines, such as Ebony as Essence, prefer light-skinned models in their beauty product ads.

For many years, entrance to special social events operated on the "brown paper bag" principle, which I will explain. Until quite recently, black fraternities and sororities, for example, recruited according to skin tone. Spike Lee's film School Daze satirizes the problem, and Alice Walker's novel The Color Purple makes it a biting subtext.

In his 1996 book The Future of the Race, Henry Louis Gates Jr., chairman of the Afro-American studies department at Harvard, described his encounter with the brown paper bag when he came to Yale in the late 1960s, when skin-tone bias was brazenly practiced: "Some of the brothers who came from New Orleans held a "bag party.' As a classmate explained it to me, a bag party was a New Orleans custom wherein a brown paper bag was stuck on the door.

"Anyone darker than the bag was denied entrance. That was one cultural legacy that would be put to rest in a hurry - we all made sure of that. But in a manner of speaking, it was replaced by an opposite test whereby those who were deemed "not black enough' ideologically were to be shunned. I was not sure this was an improvement."

Gates was overly optimistic. The brown paper bag test remains in black culture in various incarnations, as the Applebee's case and the EEOC's statistics confirm. We separate ourselves by skin tone almost as much as we ever did. If, say, you check out the "desired" female beauties in rap videos, you will find redbones galore.

Back to the Applebee's case. A spokesman for the chain issued this statement: "No one should have to put up with mean and humiliating comments about the color of their skin on the job. . . . It makes no difference that these comments are made by someone of your own race. Actually, that makes it even worse." Although the chain denied the allegations, it paid Burch $40,000 to settle the suit.

Now for the irony of ironies: Applebee's has added a protection, along with cultural sensitivity training, against skin-tone discrimination to its antidiscrimination policies.

In other words, the company must protect African-Americans from other African-Americans.

Discrimination from whites and other groups remains a big problem for blacks. But colorism is just as serious, if not more so. Colorism saps our strength from the inside. It weakens our power and ability to fight the outside forces that keep us marginalized in larger society.
quote:
Originally posted by Diamond:
..... must protect African-Americans from other African-Americans.

Discrimination from whites and other groups remains a big problem for blacks. But colorism is just as serious, if not more so. Colorism saps our strength from the inside. It weakens our power and ability to fight the outside forces that keep us marginalized in larger society.





Very much so.....
quote:
Originally posted by tmonster:
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
I was a member of the Long Island chapter in late 70's and early 80's. I wanted no part of it then, I find nothing about Jack and Jill useful today


Why?

There is a color caste system and it seemed as if light skinned Africans were prefered over dark.

There was always talk about money and who has the most of it.

Titles were very important. "That is Dr. Blah Blah Blah daughter."

Kids were made to feel like shit if they did not go to a Ivy League school or a fancy private high school.

And EVERYTHING looked like white country club behavior. What the fuck do Black folks look like hosting a cotillion?

At Jack and Jill you were trained to be more palatable to wbite people.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
What the fuck do Black folks look like hosting a cotillion?

laugh

I'd never heard of this organization until reading the book "Our Kind of People." Very interesting.

It was truly a sad sight to see. To this day, any discussions about Jack and Jill in my family usually ends up in fist to cuffs. My cousins loved it - of course they all act like Carlton Banks from The Fresh Prince of Bell Air. My mother stopped forcing me to go to Jack and Jill after I called her a white negro for sending me. I caught a real azz whippin' that day, but I won the battle. I am not mad at her... she was raised as a Catholic who went to Latin mass, listened to recordings of the "Sound of Music," and worshiped the Queen of England (as do many people from the Caribbean). She was an English teacher and whenever I said, "Hey ma! Where's my bike at? She responded, "At the end of that preposition.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
she was raised as a Catholic who went to Latin mass, listened to recordings of the "Sound of Music," and worshiped the Queen of England (as do many people from the Caribbean).


Sounds like my mom and dad (Jamaican). My mother is quite the Anglophile, with a faux British accent to match sometimes. Big Grin

YARDIE... what's up. You know EXACTLY what I am talking about. tfro
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
What the fuck do Black folks look like hosting a cotillion?

laugh

I'd never heard of this organization until reading the book "Our Kind of People." Very interesting.

It was truly a sad sight to see. To this day, any discussions about Jack and Jill in my family usually ends up in fist to cuffs. My cousins loved it - of course they all act like Carlton Banks from The Fresh Prince of Bell Air. My mother stopped forcing me to go to Jack and Jill after I called her a white negro for sending me. I caught a real azz whippin' that day, but I won the battle. I am not mad at her... she was raised as a Catholic who went to Latin mass, listened to recordings of the "Sound of Music," and worshiped the Queen of England (as do many people from the Caribbean). She was an English teacher and whenever I said, "Hey ma! Where's my bike at? She responded, "At the end of that preposition.


Black identity in the west is confounding
Off topic, but what is blackness to yall?
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
There is a color caste system and it seemed as if light skinned Africans were prefered over dark.


yes..... though I was not in J&J.... but this was my experience with members as a young girl.....

however, as an adult..... I do not think colorism plays as much a part as it used to..... at least not in DC/MD..... I think money and status trumps this now......


quote:
There was always talk about money and who has the most of it.

Titles were very important. "That is Dr. Blah Blah Blah daughter."

Kids were made to feel like shit if they did not go to a Ivy League school or a fancy private high school.

Yes...... I experienced this too......


As in most organizations.....

there is what is preached....

and then there is what's practiced......



Peace,
Virtue
I think what many of you are talking about are things that occur with people - as opposed to foundations of an organization. We live in a country where, for better or worse, people size each other up. In an organization of achieving families, insecurity will casuse some to "primp and preen" inappropriately. I'm not sure it's logical to brand the whole organization because of it.

For the record, I experienced/saw none of those things.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
I think what many of you are talking about are things that occur with people - as opposed to foundations of an organization.

MBM.... if it happens often, in different cities..... and many share the same experiences..... can you not suspect a systemic mindset?

quote:
We live in a country where, for better or worse, people size each other up. In an organization of achieving families, insecurity will casuse some to "primp and preen" inappropriately. I'm not sure it's logical to brand the whole organization because of it.
Yes..... but there are two things to be said here.....

this organization is not in a vacuum..... and it was created among a people that hold a certain viewpoint....... so this is not some isolated thing here......

and maybe your benefits from the organization will not allow you to see otherwise.....

sorry.... frustration getting in the way.....


quote:
For the record, I experienced/saw none of those things.



I know nothing of your economic or status background....

yet I know that J&J doesn't have a history of letting in the Janitor's son....


but I've seen your picture....

if that's you....

you are very light-skinned.....

and therefore would never be at the receiving end of such a cruel practice... so how could you experience it.....?



Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:

MBM.... if it happens often, in different cities..... and many share the same experiences..... can you not suspect a systemic mindset?


Perhaps, but I can supply an equal or greater number of people who have had only positive, enriching experiences.

quote:

this organization is not in a vacuum..... and it was created among a people that hold a certain viewpoint.......


Viewpoint? Other than wanting to provide culturally enriching environments and experiences for black children - what viewpoint are you referring to?

quote:
and maybe your benefits from the organization will not allow you to see otherwise.....


Perhaps, but as you know every coin has two sides.

quote:
yet I know that J&J doesn't have a history of letting in the Janitor's son....


But do you look at all black folks with college experience that way? Only 26% of Americans graduate from college. The number must be even smaller for African Americans. Does every occasion when subsets of black folks get together - by definition - have to be fundamentally elitist in purpose and objective?

quote:
you are very light-skinned.....


yeah - I'm light skinded! What about it? karate Are we back in style again yet? tongue

quote:
and therefore would never be at the receiving end of such a cruel practice... so how could you experience it.....?


My father and grandfather are/were a rich, deep brown. I grew up being very sensitive to color (as well as other) distinctions that black folks make with each other. I don't have to be blue to see and understand color consciousness just like I don't have to be a woman to appreciate and understand sexism.

I have quite a bit of experience with this group, yet I have no reason to support them if it were not warranted. Although for some, it may be difficult to (want) to believe, in my experience, it's just never been an issue. Smile

BTW - "colorism" cuts both ways too!
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
MBM.... if it happens often, in different [cities..... and many share the same experiences..... can you not suspect a systemic mindset?


Perhaps, but I can supply an equal or greater number of people who have had only positive, enriching experiences.



.....and? has no relevance on the negative experiences of others.... and the pain that's caused..... are you suggesting that because you and other's have had positive experiences that this discounts others' negative experiences?

quote:
quote:

this organization is not in a vacuum..... and it was created among a people that hold a certain viewpoint.......


Viewpoint? Other than wanting to provide culturally enriching environments and experiences for black children - what viewpoint are you referring to?


providing a culturally enriching environment for specific black children....

quote:
quote:
and maybe your benefits from the organization will not allow you to see otherwise.....


Perhaps, but as you know every coin has two sides.


flipping coin...... my side of the coin is the one we are discussing now....

quote:
quote:
yet I know that J&J doesn't have a history of letting in the Janitor's son....


But do you look at all black folks with college experience that way? Only 26% of Americans graduate from college. The number must be even smaller for African Americans. Does every occasion when subsets of black folks get together - by definition - have to be fundamentally elitist in purpose and objective?

Yes... and No.....

Just because that subset gets together is not a crime...... but when that subset excludes based off of uncontrollable characteristics.... it should expect to be attacked..... and if it develops a reputation of looking down on those who do not have the opportunities..... then it should be expect to be looked at with a jaundiced eye.......


quote:
quote:
you are very light-skinned.....


yeah - I'm light skinded! What about it? karate Are we back in style again yet? tongue

Yes, you are light-skinned.... whether you're back in style is irrelevant... is it not? I mean.... MBM... you have an entire organization of people that favor you... because of it.......

quote:
quote:
and therefore would never be at the receiving end of such a cruel practice... so how could you experience it.....?


My father and grandfather are/were a rich, deep brown. I grew up being very sensitive to color (as well as other) distinctions that black folks make with each other. I don't have to be blue to see and understand color consciousness just like I don't have to be a woman to appreciate and understand sexism.
You can understand........
but not feel it....

you will always be an outside observer....


quote:
I have quite a bit of experience with this group, yet I have no reason to support them if it were not warranted. Although for some, it may be difficult to (want) to believe, in my experience, it's just never been an issue. Smile
I believe you.....

quote:
BTW - "colorism" cuts both ways too!

Yes...

But rarely....


Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:
All of the people against Jack and Jill, are you also against country clubs, too?

This is an interesting question and it got me to thinking that Jack and Jill is just like the divine 9... exclusive, status driven, and color struck.

And the color caste system among Africans in amerikkka have never benefited dark people. As a dark man, I may have had the opportunity to date sistas who prefer a 100 percent Nubian warrior that is coco rich, sun soaked, and smooth walking. But being dark doesn't get me access to employment or power.
quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:
All of the people against Jack and Jill, are you also against country clubs, too?



I wouldn't say "against"... to each his own.. but I really feel uncomfortable in elitist settings... which is funny because I have a lot of what might be considered elitist credentials... but it just feels so fake and artificial... because people see a degree or a school and they assume they know something about you....

I avoid country clubs, fraternities, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
.....and? has no relevance on the negative experiences of others.... and the pain that's caused..... are you suggesting that because you and other's have had positive experiences that this discounts others' negative experiences?


You're the one speaking in broad generalities, talking about "systemic mindsets". I am merely providing evidence to the contrary.

quote:
providing a culturally enriching environment for specific black children....


Yes. Those who are involved in the organization. bsm

quote:
flipping coin...... my side of the coin is the one we are discussing now....


Again, I'm not trying to deny you whatever experience you have. I am just offering evidence that suggests that your experiences are not universal ones.

quote:
and if it develops a reputation of looking down on those who do not have the opportunities..... then it should be expect to be looked at with a jaundiced eye


The organization does not "look down" on anyone - particularly other black people. Certain people may, but "looking down" is certainly not a behavior that is exclusive to any group or class of people.

quote:
I mean.... MBM... you have an entire organization of people that favor you... because of it.


First of all, that's just baloney! Please share whatever evidence you have to support your assertion. You know of someone who otherwise would have been a part of the organization except for their skin color?

Second, I was attempting humor. There are entire organizations that "favor" brown skin folks too. So what?

Third, as I mentioned, there is color discrimination within our community that cuts both ways. In what way can you attach that to this particular organizastion - particularly when I have first hand - multi-generational, multi-regional experience to the contrary.
Here is the picture of the current president. Does her hue look consistent with an organization that acts in the way that you describe about color?


Here's the VP.


Here's the Recording Secretary.


Here's the Corresponding Secretary.


Here's the Treasurer.


Here's the Editor.


And here's the National Program Director.


Here are the Regional Directors.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
You're the one speaking in broad generalities, talking about "systemic mindsets". I am merely providing evidence to the contrary.

If your position is "I have had positive experiences and many others that I know have....." then that is specific to you..... I am merely stating my specific experience contrary to yours......

and from that I am listening to others echo my response.... and the observation is something of a passive agressive position in your organiztion ........ one that affects others.... your positive experience only affects you and those who are admitted in your organization.....


quote:
Those who are involved in the organization. bsm

Yes.... MBM..... thanks for pointing this out..... you kept alluding to the organizations uplifing stance towards black children..... I wanted to point out that your use of its goals is a limited one.... not all black children are seen as worthy to receive its benefits..... just those who are "chosen" and according to you, I suppose, it has nothing to do with the class or status of their parents???

quote:
Again, I'm not trying to deny you whatever experience you have. I am just offering evidence that suggests that your experiences are not universal ones.



.....The organization does not "look down" on anyone - particularly other black people. Certain people may, but "looking down" is certainly not a behavior that is exclusive to any group or class of people.



First of all, that's just baloney! Please share whatever evidence you have to support your assertion. You know of someone who otherwise would have been a part of the organization except for their skin color?


you can't deny them..... because they are real.... but they are not my experiences alone.....


but I had to say this earlier in this post:

V: I do not think colorism plays as much a part as it used to..... at least not in DC/MD..... I think money and status trumps this now......

For instance here is what Shango had to say:


Shango: There was always talk about money and who has the most of it.

Titles were very important. "That is Dr. Blah Blah Blah daughter."

Kids were made to feel like shit if they did not go to a Ivy League school or a fancy private high school.

Originally posted by Shango67:
There is a color caste system and it seemed as if light skinned Africans were prefered over dark.



quote:
Second, I was attempting humor. There are entire organizations that "favor" brown skin folks too. So what?

I don't know entire organizations that "favor" brown skin folks.... but... we are not discussing those.... we are discussing this one that favors "light skinned" folks.... just because the opposite may exist does not discount the problems associated with the latter....

By the way ...... I almost laughed at your attempt at humor.... except this topic cuts too deep in many ways.... so your joke was in the distance next to my pain......


quote:
Third, as I mentioned, there is color discrimination within our community that cuts both ways.
MBM.... you don't know this but in many ways this is being taken as EXTREMELY insensitive..... I almost don't know how to explain it.... and in many ways I feel like I'm talking to a white guy about racism and having him come back and say racism cuts both ways..... there's so many layers to me bringing this issue up that you may not understand I'm almost speechless.....

yes, it cuts both ways...... in not the same way.... and not with the same depth, breadth, intensity or repercutions.....


quote:
In what way can you attach that to this particular organizastion - particularly when I have first hand - multi-generational, multi-regional experience to the contrary.


Tired... talk to Shango.... just because he's the closest one here... or maybe talk to someone who feels this way around you.... they know you and probably can better convey the sentiment...

Me?

I'm drained....


topic too close for comfort...

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
It amazes me that you can post what you do about color despite the photos of the women who run the organization. If I knew nothing about them, I'd say this organization discriminates against light complexioned women.



grrrrrr......


sigh....


quote:
but I had to say this earlier in this post:

V: I do not think colorism plays as much a part as it used to..... at least not in DC/MD..... I think money and status trumps this now......
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Here is the picture of the current president. Does her hue look consistent with an organization that acts in the way that you describe about color?


Here's the VP.


Here's the Recording Secretary.


Here's the Corresponding Secretary.


Here's the Treasurer.


Here's the Editor.


And here's the National Program Director.


Here are the Regional Directors.

ewwwwwwwwww! The majority of these sistas be frying up their hair. They represent the awful legacy of Madame C. J. Walker.
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Here is the picture of the current president. Does her hue look consistent with an organization that acts in the way that you describe about color?


Here's the VP.


Here's the Recording Secretary.


Here's the Corresponding Secretary.


Here's the Treasurer.


Here's the Editor.


And here's the National Program Director.


Here are the Regional Directors.

ewwwwwwwwww! The majority of these sistas be frying up their hair. They represent the awful legacy of Madame C. J. Walker.


Dont forget this is the front the company or organization is trying to sell, these can be token members...I'm just saying, its possible. I have friends of friends who are part of J&J and they disscuss color often
Like any other association, J&J is nothing more than a club; a "Black" American status "Symbol."

J&J is to Black America as
Porshe is to Sports Car.

It's that simple. Only problem is, there are too few Black Americans who can afford a porshe, while a porshe is probabaly a very good pre-requisite to J&J membership.

I personally have no interest in special interest groups, as the majority of which have no political clout because of their (inwardness), particularly special interest groups who do not do anything for HUMANITY at large.

Should I start a non-profit called "Lamar & Latoya" for BELOW average blacks, then parade my membership because I'm proad to live in an IMPOVERISHED neighborhood. Should I celebrate the fact that I live a life of "DEFICIT" not "EXCESS?" Oh, and not to mention, if I did these things, should I also keep my membership LIMITED so as not to begrudge the reputation of a Black American Organization befitting only those "UNFORTUNATES" who earn "NOT ENOUGH" to join?

Ok you get my point.
MBM, sorry I left you hanging, hearings left and right. Not that you will agree with what I am about to say but I agreed with all that you have offered since my last post on this issue.

It is unfortunate that those who have not been members feel the need to decry the merits.

You are all right, while they may be eligible all Black children will not be members of J&J, just like all Black children will not be members of the NAACP youth council, the Urban League teen group or the Crips and Bloods. It is called freedom of association.

You are right, J&J is a club that is expensive to join, you are right most Black folk cannot afford to join. If not being a member makes you feel so bad, make the money to join or ......Light a Candle and create your own organization, call it Hanzel and Gretal, or The Black Child Group, whatever you like. You will be free to have whatever criteria you want as the price of admission. There will always be haters, but the negative comments in this thread say one thing, Jealousy. Loud and Clear.

My J&J chapter had members of every hue in the Black Rainbow. The paper bag test is no longer a factor, and that is assuming it ever was. I have found that the people who talk about the paper bag test have never been present when it was used. I think that that suggestion is made by those who for whatever reason were not invited to join and want to bash the orgsanization. Oh and anybody can ask Vox, I could not pass the paper bag test if I wanted to try. Yes, I am darker than a paper bag and try to get darker during the Summer cause I love to lay out in the sun.

As African people we are tribal by nature, because of the Diaspora we are so mixed up that we now associate by common attributes. A common attribute for J&J is socializing Black kids who live in white areas with each other so that they have other kids to connect with who are going through what they are facing on a daily basis. Another common attribute in the case of J&J it is the focus on higher education and preparing kids to live and operate in this society. What I find funny, now that I have been thinking about J&J is that of all the girls that I knew in it, there were no teen pregnancies, guys did not father children in high school. The chapter I was in had 100% college attendance rate, with a graduation rate within 5 years, and 40% of us went on to graduate school right after college and another 30% went within 10 years of graduating from college. Those should be things people want for their children, but for some on this site, education =/= Black People.

J&J is about taking your kids to the next level, letting them know on in very real way on an intimate level that they are not alone, that being educated does not make you less Black and that living some subsistence lifestyle is not the only future for Black people, that you can and should enjoy all this world has to offer.

I wonder how many people saw the report that says that being Black and Smart means that you lose friends, it was on 20/20 and in the book Freakanomics. That book also extolled similarities of being a Beauty Pageant contestant and a Drug Dealer. That 20/20 episode had these Black kids getting called names because they were smart. Sad testament on the state of Black America where being mediocore seems to be all the rage and totally in fashion. I say be a trend setter and be smart.

So for all those that did not get in, like I said before, Everything ain't for everybody. J&J is exclusive for a reason. It is about values. If you don't share mine, no problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
There will always be haters, but the negative comments in this thread say one thing, Jealousy. Loud and Clear.
.............................
So for all those that did not get in, like I said before, Everything ain't for everybody. J&J is exclusive for a reason. It is about values. If you don't share mine, no problem.


Jealousy? Over what? Your fantastic values? ....18

So being smart means being loaded?

you know... it seems that you could make membership affordable and when the ignorant negroes try to get into your little club they'll turn back once they see all the nerds...they'll understand right away it's not for them... exclusivity problem solved without being a frickin' snob to boot...

You know... there are smart kids from the ghetto too... even ones that have gone on to get graduate degrees and are childless...

Geez... I'm not getting sucked into this one...Speechless...

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