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Is anyone here a member?

Anyone rejected?

Is the organization's reputation of being elitist warrented?
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When I was growing up [in the mid-70's] my mother explicitly rejected an invitation for my sister and I to join. She knew some of the people involved and did not want to associate because of their elitist conduct.

My sister was pissed because she would not be able to "come out" in their cotillion. While I didn't care one way or the other, in 1978, I was one of 3 non-J&J cotillion escorts.
I was in Jack and Jill from the age of four until I graduated from high school when you naturally age out. I loved it, still have friends who now live around the country from it. Met people at college and in law school and in my ski club who were also in it.

I think is was positive for me, and the kids in it. My kids will be in it, when I have them and I have assisted others in joining it.

I am also a Delta, pledged in college at the same chapter my mother pledged at the same college.

Jack and Jill is a family organization for Black families.

As to the negative comments from contributors to this thread, all I can say is, quoting Jill Scott "Everything ain't for everybody".
Jack and Jill has little to do with elitism within African America. As I see it, it is about trying to maintain cultural integrity within largely white suburban communities. The families come from the ranks of the professional and college educated. To the degree that that is elitist, it is. But the purpsose is to instill pride and establish links among African American children where they might not always exist.

I grew up in a white suburb of Boston in the highly racist 1970's. Jack and Jill was a tool to keep me connected with other black kids. It was not the only vehicle for that purpose, and I certainly had contact with black kids throughout the spectrum of African America, but it was a great way to connect with other black kids - not only in my town - but from around the country.
I grew up in a depressed all-black area, and I was never exposed to anything like Jack & Jill. I doubt very seriously that I would ever raise children in an all-white area. However, if I ever did, I think Jack and Jill would be a great opportunity for them. I think anything that instills self-awareness in black children who are otherwise at risk of being disconnected is something I would support. To the extent that they may be somewhat "elitist," who cares? Why would that constitute a deal-breaker?
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Jack and Jill has little to do with elitism within African America. As I see it, it is about trying to maintain cultural integrity within largely white suburban communities. The families come from the ranks of the professional and college educated. To the degree that that is elitist, it is. But the purpsose is to instill pride and establish links among African American children where they might not always exist.


I didn't intend to imply anything overly nasty about Jack & Jill.

But, coming from the black working class like I do (and I'm also first generation college educated), dealing with 2nd and 3rd generation middle class black folk can be stressful - you are sometimes put off by a certain elitist strain - or at least tendency to take far more for granted than I do...
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Jack and Jill has little to do with elitism within African America. As I see it, it is about trying to maintain cultural integrity within largely white suburban communities. The families come from the ranks of the professional and college educated. To the degree that that is elitist, it is. But the purpsose is to instill pride and establish links among African American children where they might not always exist.


I didn't intend to imply anything overly nasty about Jack & Jill.

But, coming from the black working class like I do (and I'm also first generation college educated), dealing with 2nd and 3rd generation middle class black folk can be stressful - you are sometimes put off by a certain elitist strain - or at least tendency to take far more for granted than I do...
appl bow My wife has some older family friends here in Houston that fit all the stereotypes. They insists on the use of their titles in informal conversations, they love dropping names, pimping their Greek organizations, etc. To date, I find it all quite superficial. Unfortunately, my wife has already let me know that if we have kids, she wants them in these circles. I will just have to train my kids to be subversives. Wink
Honestly I have never head of Jack and Jill of America until I saw this thread. I am going to look it up on the internet. The comments have definitely been interesting to read.

I agree with the points that everybody has made. I grew up in the same way HonestBrother did working class family in a African American neighborhood and also first generation college educated.

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a female I was working with years ago. She went to a different high school then I did in Cincinnati. She said she loved the high school she gradauted from and was so glad that she did not go to a particular high school that she mentioned. She said everybody that went there were all hood rats she did not realize that she was talking about the high school that I graduated from! I quickly told her that I am not a hood rat and I am very educated!

I really dislike people who think that they are better than you because of certain circumstances. I am not saying that Jack and Jill of America is like that. I just think we as people should really be aware about trying not to put labels on each other.
maybe apart of really caring about black people and the black community and living and spending your money withing those communities , just imagine if these so called elites used that capital to enhance our communities instead of trying to live with the Joneses, seems to me its all about the decisions people make. If you purposely decide to live in an area where people dont look like you, how do you tell your people you are down with them?
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:

If you purposely decide to live in an area where people dont look like you, how do you tell your people you are down with them?


You make the racist and perhaps self hateful presumption that all of "your people" live in the hood. Brother, they don't. You infer that to be 'truly black' you've got to be a certain type of person and live in a certain place. That seems to be a sort of 'ethnic elitism' that is as divisive as any other kind.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:

If you purposely decide to live in an area where people dont look like you, how do you tell your people you are down with them?


You make the racist and perhaps self hateful presumption that all of "your people" live in the hood. Brother, they don't. You infer that to be 'truly black' you've got to be a certain type of person and live in a certain place. That seems to be a sort of 'ethnic elitism' that is as divisive as any other kind.


yeah
I love black people to death, Who said every black person is from the hood. Who said every black community is a Hood? there are some very nice viable black communities all over this country filled with black working,middle and upperclass blacks who purposely decided to live and spend their capital with their people
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:

If you purposely decide to live in an area where people dont look like you, how do you tell your people you are down with them?


You make the racist and perhaps self hateful presumption that all of "your people" live in the hood. Brother, they don't. You infer that to be 'truly black' you've got to be a certain type of person and live in a certain place. That seems to be a sort of 'ethnic elitism' that is as divisive as any other kind.


yeah

yeah
Come on with that setup shyt, My point is if you live within a community buy property in that community you contribute to the viability of that community. If you live outside that community your taxes go somewhere else Ie education, power.Our people as of now dont provide all the services we as a people need, but they do suppy alot. But I never said spend all, but i was implying spending every dime possible with your own people would not only be benificial to you as an individual but it contributes to the viability of the community
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
why would you live in an all white area, anyway, if you just put a bunch of yuppie kids together how does that help the community?


I have not discounted J&J as an activity for my daughter, in that as some have indicated, it is a way to connect with other Black kids.

quote:
why would you live in an all white area, anyway


In Tucson, Arizona, one has little choice. Blacks make up about 3% of the population. And, while Hispanics make up about 30%, living with them is no different than living with white folk; only the median income is significantly lower.

quote:
why not expose your children to all types of black kids , advantaged and disadvantaged.


We do whenever possible, but I would be happy exposing my daughter to ANY group of Black kids, regardless of socio-economic status.

quote:
if you just put a bunch of yuppie kids together how does that help the community


In the same way, this community helps the community. It gives us an opportunity to "not be alone" and to "see others, like us, that are succeeding.
so it is a choice people intentially make.No one forced them to move into all white areas. People act as if most people live in white communities because of jobs thats a lie. Most people live in white communities because they think they can get a better value for their houses. Often they will have to drive by a black community to get to these outer suburbs. Most black people dont live in Utah!!
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
so it is a choice people intentially make.No one forced them to move into all white areas.

Of course it is. I never said anything implying the contrary.

quote:
People act as if most people live in white communities because of jobs thats a lie. Most people live in white communities because they think they can get a better value for their houses.

No, people consistantly buy as much home as they think they can afford. I don't think this is a very smart practice, but it's what people do. I don't believe that Black folks drive passed Black communities out of avoidence (if they do at all). There just trying to get as much "bang for their buck", just like everone else.

quote:
Most black people dont live in Utah!!

Relevence?

Again, people choose to live where there is an appreciable difference between their ability to generate revenue (employment) and the cost of living, assuming that they have any choices at all.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by TruEssence:

Honestly I have never head of Jack and Jill of America until I saw this thread.


At least I'm not the only one here who hasn't got a clue what this thread is all about.

Could somebody please explain what Jack and Jill of America is?


TruEssence and ricardomath, go to

http://www.jack-and-jill.org/


thanks
MTC
I'm glad to see this discussed here by those who have participated in J&J. I am from the school of thought that when segregation was no longer part of our society we should have stayed in OUR communities and improved them. But, there was the Black-flight to the white suburbans by those who had "made it." Thus, I can see the importance of J&J.

Those of us who continue to live in the Black communities are not ask to join J&J. From my experience with J&J, those who are members are children of lawyers, local celebrities, ex-football players, politicans, those who hold PHDs and anyone they deem worthy and living in the suburbans. And those same Black folks who live in a predominately white suburbs, come into the Black community on Saturdays to get their hair done and on Sundays to go church.

I'm not against anything that would enhance a child's self-awareness. That being said, I do get ruffled feathers when these same J&J children evolve into adults who feel they are the elitist or the talented-tenth of the African Americans because of thier affiliations. I have members in my own family who belong to J&J and my experience with them is exclusion not inclusion. Thus creating a "I'm better than you because...." or you are field negro and I'm house negro. fro
quote:
Originally posted by Diamond:
MTC
I'm glad to see this discussed here by those who have participated in J&J. I am from the school of thought that when segregation was no longer part of our society we should have stayed in OUR communities and improved them. But, there was the Black-flight to the white suburbans by those who had "made it." Thus, I can see the importance of J&J.

Those of us who continue to live in the Black communities are not ask to join J&J. From my experience with J&J, those who are members are children of lawyers, local celebrities, ex-football players, politicans, those who hold PHDs and anyone they deem worthy and living in the suburbans. And those same Black folks who live in a predominately white suburbs, come into the Black community on Saturdays to get their hair done and on Sundays to go church.

I'm not against anything that would enhance a child's self-awareness. That being said, I do get ruffled feathers when these same J&J children evolve into adults who feel they are the elitist or the talented-tenth of the African Americans because of thier affiliations. I have members in my own family who belong to J&J and my experience with them is exclusion not inclusion. Thus creating a "I'm better than you because...." or you are field negro and I'm house negro. fro



This is very similar to my experience with J&J and the black middle class generally. Which is not to question someone's racial authenticity. But black folks can be bigger goddamned snobs than whites... and over some pretty petty stuff (fraternities, sororities, clubs, etc.)
I am troubled to hear members of this site decry the vaulue of a Black organization like Jack and Jill which is positive. bang

MBM I am glad that I am not the only former J&J member on this site brave enough to say it, and I am glad you too saw the benefits of being in that organization.

Vox, thanks for your openmindedness.

As for J&J, this organization allowed me to see a very different view of Black people as opposed to tv stero-types from shows like "Good Times" or "Sanford and Son". I always wondered why there were no tv shows about famlies like mine on tv in the 70's and why did every Black show have to be a sitcom? Then we got the The Cosby Show. Much better, but still a sitcom. Why?

I find it odd that people think that being Black means being working class. Thurgood Marshall should not have gone to the Supreme Court or even Howard's Law School if that was the case. We would not have had the Black psychologist who did the experiments for Brown vs. Board of Education. Senator Obama should not be in office right now, he too is a law school graduate, Harvard. We should have no Black doctors, engineers [electrical, civil or architectural], MBA, or anyone at all that goes beyond college right. Shonda Rhimes would not have had the oportunity to write and produce Grey's Anatomy, where we get to see not one but three Black surgeons, not just doctors but surgeons one of whom is the Chief of Surgery, on Sunday, and they are not the tokens, the Asian doctor is. What would we get then, only college drop-out professional athelets? Would we as a people be stuck in lower management forever or should we all just say hey being a check out clerk at any store is good enough for my brain, since I want to be considered Black by my people. True, it is difficult to purchase a house on the salary but it is an honest job and no one would be able to say I was not some kind of elite Black cause I went to graduate school. What example does that set for our children?

If we keep decrying education and organizations that make kids compete with thier minds and not thier bodies like it is a bad thing we will end up not having a Black middle and upper class at all. Without a Black middle and upper class we will not have advocates for our community's needs in the halls of power, does anybody hear Bush v. Gore, remember we just needed one Senator and Carol Mosely Braun, another attorney, was no longer in Office, and Obama was not there yet.... hummmm what would have happened, .......be they congress, courtrooms, planning boards or hospitals. We will have to depend on the good graces of others. By the way, how far have the good graces of others gotten us as a people since the Civil War? Just Asking. I am the first attorney in my family, but out of my J&J class of 1984 there are dozens from across the country, directly from my local chapter we have 5 attorneys and 3 doctors. I think that is a good thing.

Jack and Jill is a support group for Black families who want more for thier kids than a spot on the corner. The live in Cities, Suburbs and Rural areas. Why is living in the hood what makes you Black? By the way, who made that decision? Just asking.
they stuff you saying is Stero typical itself. Saying that all people who live in a working class community is on a street corner. The problem with and elitist group like Jack & Jill(why the name?) It doesnt accept the average black person. Most black people are not millionairs, or even make over 50,0000. The overwhelming amount of black people are poor and working class, why not have something thats inclusive istead of some country club shyt
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
why would you live in an all white area, anyway

Perhaps thats where your career takes you. I have worked at colleges in upstate New York, central Pennsylvania, and south central Michigan. That is the nature of those communities.


Our where your parents career takes you, as an Army brat (term for army kids) there are no all black neighborhoods on military installations where we all live and hang out.
I'm sure about J&J in particular.

I would have to see a few meetings and meet a few more people to judge whether it's elitist or not.

I wouldn't call it elitist just because there isn't a plethora of low-income folks in the org, though. Especially when looking at why the group was formed, I don't think it should be expected to accept everyone.

I'd love to have my children in an organization like Jack and Jill if we were living the upper-class life.

Not to teach them the Black experience or how to relate to Blacks.

That'd be like a WASP taking his kids to a country club to learn Whiteness.

You're not going to learn about a huge scope of people by being in a club where everyone has a white-collar parent and is the only Black kid on the school. It's not going to help the child better relate to someone with a different life.

But the club is good for giving the kids people like them who they could relate in a world where many White people associate Blacks with ghettos and many Blacks associate privileged Blacks as not really Black.

I think that with an organization like Jack and Jill the kids will learn to scoff when Whites say, "You're not like other Black people," rather than take it as a compliment. And learn to take, "only White people talk like that," as ignorance.

It's a group where the children fit.

And there is a chance for networking.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
I am troubled to hear members of this site decry the vaulue of a Black organization like Jack and Jill which is positive. bang


Nikcara, I'm not condemning J&J. And I believe such organizations can be positive and be good for its participants. But like any organization it has its problems... one of them being its relation to lower income blacks.

Neither am I saying authentic blackness means working class. I'm just saying that as someone who comes from the working class I find some middle class blacks to be snobbish and petty -especially when it comes to memberships in exclusive organizations...
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so how does that prepare them to relate to the masses of black people who dont have the white collar upbringing? Does it matter . Why does black poor and working class people always associated with Ghetto. People sound more and more like Bill Cosby everyday, especially those who think they have made it to the country club lifestyle. Why not bring poor and working class children into this evironment?
quote:
Originally posted by tmonster:
Do they still have the paperbag test?

You know I was trying not to mention that.....

it was a reality for me personally in Georgia...

though not with J&J.....

the paperbag test....... was applied here in Georgia by many members of the organization.... tthough not all..... but enough that it was a common practice.....

I do not think skin color is an issue any more.... at least not to the extent it used to be.... I think income and status was and still is a significant factor....


which is why.... it's good to instill principles of pride.... etc....

but.... those principles of pride in organizations such as these are reserved to be taught for the selected few who already had enough pride in themselves (and the right connections with others) to work towards the height of their industry or society.....


It's funny how we don't really discuss painful things like this in our community....

things like this have worked to double destroy the self esteem of many.......

Peace,
Virtue
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quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
quote:
Originally posted by tmonster:
Do they still have the paperbag test?

You know I was trying not to mention that.....

it was a reality for me personally in Georgia...

though not with J&J.....

the paperbag test....... was applied here in Georgia by many members of the organization.... tthough not all..... but enough that it was a common practice.....



It's funny how we don't really discuss painful things like this in our community....

things like this have worked to double destroy the self esteem of many.......

Peace,
Virtue


Virtue,
You are so right, we don't discuss the hurtful things we have done to ourselves. We are quick to point out what the white man has done to us but we very seldom discuss what we do to ourselves. I am ashamed to say that I have heard of the paper bag test. Not only with the J&J but with other black organizations. For example my church, I heard it said by someone I respect that a presbyterian is a baptist that has made it. In addition, my presbyterian church has a history of only light-skin folks were excepted or invited to be members in the early 1900's.

Fasinating article on the subject below:
By BILL MAXWELL, Times Staff Writer
© St. Petersburg Times
published August 31, 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Each year, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission receives about 85,000 discrimination cases, a phenomenon to be expected in a society that touts itself as a "melting pot."

Many of these cases involve the complaints of minority groups against majority groups. We rarely expect a member of a minority group to discriminate against someone else in the same group. But that is exactly what happens among African-Americans.

More than any other minority group in the United States, blacks discriminate against one another. The discrimination, called "colorism," is based on skin tone: whether a person is dark-skinned or light-skinned or in the broad middle somewhere.

Most African-Americans refuse to discuss this self-destructive problem even in private. According to the EEOC, though, the number of such cases are steadily increasing, jumping from 413 in fiscal year 1994 to 1,382 in 2002, a figure that represents about 3 percent of all cases the agency receives yearly.

The most recent case making news in the black press involves two employees of an Applebee's restaurant in Jonesboro, Ga., near Atlanta. There, Dwight Burch, a dark-skinned waiter, who has left the restaurant, filed a lawsuit against Applebee's and his light-skinned African-American manager.

In the suit, Burch alleged that during his three-month stint, the manager repeatedly referred to him as a "black monkey" and a "tar baby." The manager also told Burch to bleach his skin, and Burch was fired after he refused to do so, the suit states.

Colorism has a long and ugly history among American blacks, dating back to slavery, when light-skinned blacks were automatically given preferential treatment by plantation owners and their henchmen.

Colorism's history is fascinating: Fair-skinned slaves automatically enjoyed plum jobs in the master's house, if they had to work at all. Many traveled throughout the nation and abroad with their masters and their families. They were exposed to the finer things, and many became educated as a result. Their darker-tone peers toiled in the fields. They were the ones who were beaten, burned and hanged, the ones permanently condemned to be the lowest of the low in U.S. society. For them, even learning - reading, 'riting, 'rithmetic - was illegal.

When slavery ended, light-skinned blacks established social organizations that barred darker ex-slaves. Elite blacks of the early 20th century were fair-skinned almost to the person. Even today, most blacks in high positions have fair skin tones, and most blacks who do menial jobs or are in prison are dark. Believe it or not, popular black magazines, such as Ebony as Essence, prefer light-skinned models in their beauty product ads.

For many years, entrance to special social events operated on the "brown paper bag" principle, which I will explain. Until quite recently, black fraternities and sororities, for example, recruited according to skin tone. Spike Lee's film School Daze satirizes the problem, and Alice Walker's novel The Color Purple makes it a biting subtext.

In his 1996 book The Future of the Race, Henry Louis Gates Jr., chairman of the Afro-American studies department at Harvard, described his encounter with the brown paper bag when he came to Yale in the late 1960s, when skin-tone bias was brazenly practiced: "Some of the brothers who came from New Orleans held a "bag party.' As a classmate explained it to me, a bag party was a New Orleans custom wherein a brown paper bag was stuck on the door.

"Anyone darker than the bag was denied entrance. That was one cultural legacy that would be put to rest in a hurry - we all made sure of that. But in a manner of speaking, it was replaced by an opposite test whereby those who were deemed "not black enough' ideologically were to be shunned. I was not sure this was an improvement."

Gates was overly optimistic. The brown paper bag test remains in black culture in various incarnations, as the Applebee's case and the EEOC's statistics confirm. We separate ourselves by skin tone almost as much as we ever did. If, say, you check out the "desired" female beauties in rap videos, you will find redbones galore.

Back to the Applebee's case. A spokesman for the chain issued this statement: "No one should have to put up with mean and humiliating comments about the color of their skin on the job. . . . It makes no difference that these comments are made by someone of your own race. Actually, that makes it even worse." Although the chain denied the allegations, it paid Burch $40,000 to settle the suit.

Now for the irony of ironies: Applebee's has added a protection, along with cultural sensitivity training, against skin-tone discrimination to its antidiscrimination policies.

In other words, the company must protect African-Americans from other African-Americans.

Discrimination from whites and other groups remains a big problem for blacks. But colorism is just as serious, if not more so. Colorism saps our strength from the inside. It weakens our power and ability to fight the outside forces that keep us marginalized in larger society.
quote:
Originally posted by Diamond:
..... must protect African-Americans from other African-Americans.

Discrimination from whites and other groups remains a big problem for blacks. But colorism is just as serious, if not more so. Colorism saps our strength from the inside. It weakens our power and ability to fight the outside forces that keep us marginalized in larger society.





Very much so.....
quote:
Originally posted by tmonster:
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
I was a member of the Long Island chapter in late 70's and early 80's. I wanted no part of it then, I find nothing about Jack and Jill useful today


Why?

There is a color caste system and it seemed as if light skinned Africans were prefered over dark.

There was always talk about money and who has the most of it.

Titles were very important. "That is Dr. Blah Blah Blah daughter."

Kids were made to feel like shit if they did not go to a Ivy League school or a fancy private high school.

And EVERYTHING looked like white country club behavior. What the fuck do Black folks look like hosting a cotillion?

At Jack and Jill you were trained to be more palatable to wbite people.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
What the fuck do Black folks look like hosting a cotillion?

laugh

I'd never heard of this organization until reading the book "Our Kind of People." Very interesting.

It was truly a sad sight to see. To this day, any discussions about Jack and Jill in my family usually ends up in fist to cuffs. My cousins loved it - of course they all act like Carlton Banks from The Fresh Prince of Bell Air. My mother stopped forcing me to go to Jack and Jill after I called her a white negro for sending me. I caught a real azz whippin' that day, but I won the battle. I am not mad at her... she was raised as a Catholic who went to Latin mass, listened to recordings of the "Sound of Music," and worshiped the Queen of England (as do many people from the Caribbean). She was an English teacher and whenever I said, "Hey ma! Where's my bike at? She responded, "At the end of that preposition.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
she was raised as a Catholic who went to Latin mass, listened to recordings of the "Sound of Music," and worshiped the Queen of England (as do many people from the Caribbean).


Sounds like my mom and dad (Jamaican). My mother is quite the Anglophile, with a faux British accent to match sometimes. Big Grin

YARDIE... what's up. You know EXACTLY what I am talking about. tfro
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
What the fuck do Black folks look like hosting a cotillion?

laugh

I'd never heard of this organization until reading the book "Our Kind of People." Very interesting.

It was truly a sad sight to see. To this day, any discussions about Jack and Jill in my family usually ends up in fist to cuffs. My cousins loved it - of course they all act like Carlton Banks from The Fresh Prince of Bell Air. My mother stopped forcing me to go to Jack and Jill after I called her a white negro for sending me. I caught a real azz whippin' that day, but I won the battle. I am not mad at her... she was raised as a Catholic who went to Latin mass, listened to recordings of the "Sound of Music," and worshiped the Queen of England (as do many people from the Caribbean). She was an English teacher and whenever I said, "Hey ma! Where's my bike at? She responded, "At the end of that preposition.


Black identity in the west is confounding
Off topic, but what is blackness to yall?
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
There is a color caste system and it seemed as if light skinned Africans were prefered over dark.


yes..... though I was not in J&J.... but this was my experience with members as a young girl.....

however, as an adult..... I do not think colorism plays as much a part as it used to..... at least not in DC/MD..... I think money and status trumps this now......


quote:
There was always talk about money and who has the most of it.

Titles were very important. "That is Dr. Blah Blah Blah daughter."

Kids were made to feel like shit if they did not go to a Ivy League school or a fancy private high school.

Yes...... I experienced this too......


As in most organizations.....

there is what is preached....

and then there is what's practiced......



Peace,
Virtue
I think what many of you are talking about are things that occur with people - as opposed to foundations of an organization. We live in a country where, for better or worse, people size each other up. In an organization of achieving families, insecurity will casuse some to "primp and preen" inappropriately. I'm not sure it's logical to brand the whole organization because of it.

For the record, I experienced/saw none of those things.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
I think what many of you are talking about are things that occur with people - as opposed to foundations of an organization.

MBM.... if it happens often, in different cities..... and many share the same experiences..... can you not suspect a systemic mindset?

quote:
We live in a country where, for better or worse, people size each other up. In an organization of achieving families, insecurity will casuse some to "primp and preen" inappropriately. I'm not sure it's logical to brand the whole organization because of it.
Yes..... but there are two things to be said here.....

this organization is not in a vacuum..... and it was created among a people that hold a certain viewpoint....... so this is not some isolated thing here......

and maybe your benefits from the organization will not allow you to see otherwise.....

sorry.... frustration getting in the way.....


quote:
For the record, I experienced/saw none of those things.



I know nothing of your economic or status background....

yet I know that J&J doesn't have a history of letting in the Janitor's son....


but I've seen your picture....

if that's you....

you are very light-skinned.....

and therefore would never be at the receiving end of such a cruel practice... so how could you experience it.....?



Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:

MBM.... if it happens often, in different cities..... and many share the same experiences..... can you not suspect a systemic mindset?


Perhaps, but I can supply an equal or greater number of people who have had only positive, enriching experiences.

quote:

this organization is not in a vacuum..... and it was created among a people that hold a certain viewpoint.......


Viewpoint? Other than wanting to provide culturally enriching environments and experiences for black children - what viewpoint are you referring to?

quote:
and maybe your benefits from the organization will not allow you to see otherwise.....


Perhaps, but as you know every coin has two sides.

quote:
yet I know that J&J doesn't have a history of letting in the Janitor's son....


But do you look at all black folks with college experience that way? Only 26% of Americans graduate from college. The number must be even smaller for African Americans. Does every occasion when subsets of black folks get together - by definition - have to be fundamentally elitist in purpose and objective?

quote:
you are very light-skinned.....


yeah - I'm light skinded! What about it? karate Are we back in style again yet? tongue

quote:
and therefore would never be at the receiving end of such a cruel practice... so how could you experience it.....?


My father and grandfather are/were a rich, deep brown. I grew up being very sensitive to color (as well as other) distinctions that black folks make with each other. I don't have to be blue to see and understand color consciousness just like I don't have to be a woman to appreciate and understand sexism.

I have quite a bit of experience with this group, yet I have no reason to support them if it were not warranted. Although for some, it may be difficult to (want) to believe, in my experience, it's just never been an issue. Smile

BTW - "colorism" cuts both ways too!
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
MBM.... if it happens often, in different [cities..... and many share the same experiences..... can you not suspect a systemic mindset?


Perhaps, but I can supply an equal or greater number of people who have had only positive, enriching experiences.



.....and? has no relevance on the negative experiences of others.... and the pain that's caused..... are you suggesting that because you and other's have had positive experiences that this discounts others' negative experiences?

quote:
quote:

this organization is not in a vacuum..... and it was created among a people that hold a certain viewpoint.......


Viewpoint? Other than wanting to provide culturally enriching environments and experiences for black children - what viewpoint are you referring to?


providing a culturally enriching environment for specific black children....

quote:
quote:
and maybe your benefits from the organization will not allow you to see otherwise.....


Perhaps, but as you know every coin has two sides.


flipping coin...... my side of the coin is the one we are discussing now....

quote:
quote:
yet I know that J&J doesn't have a history of letting in the Janitor's son....


But do you look at all black folks with college experience that way? Only 26% of Americans graduate from college. The number must be even smaller for African Americans. Does every occasion when subsets of black folks get together - by definition - have to be fundamentally elitist in purpose and objective?

Yes... and No.....

Just because that subset gets together is not a crime...... but when that subset excludes based off of uncontrollable characteristics.... it should expect to be attacked..... and if it develops a reputation of looking down on those who do not have the opportunities..... then it should be expect to be looked at with a jaundiced eye.......


quote:
quote:
you are very light-skinned.....


yeah - I'm light skinded! What about it? karate Are we back in style again yet? tongue

Yes, you are light-skinned.... whether you're back in style is irrelevant... is it not? I mean.... MBM... you have an entire organization of people that favor you... because of it.......

quote:
quote:
and therefore would never be at the receiving end of such a cruel practice... so how could you experience it.....?


My father and grandfather are/were a rich, deep brown. I grew up being very sensitive to color (as well as other) distinctions that black folks make with each other. I don't have to be blue to see and understand color consciousness just like I don't have to be a woman to appreciate and understand sexism.
You can understand........
but not feel it....

you will always be an outside observer....


quote:
I have quite a bit of experience with this group, yet I have no reason to support them if it were not warranted. Although for some, it may be difficult to (want) to believe, in my experience, it's just never been an issue. Smile
I believe you.....

quote:
BTW - "colorism" cuts both ways too!

Yes...

But rarely....


Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:
All of the people against Jack and Jill, are you also against country clubs, too?

This is an interesting question and it got me to thinking that Jack and Jill is just like the divine 9... exclusive, status driven, and color struck.

And the color caste system among Africans in amerikkka have never benefited dark people. As a dark man, I may have had the opportunity to date sistas who prefer a 100 percent Nubian warrior that is coco rich, sun soaked, and smooth walking. But being dark doesn't get me access to employment or power.
quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:
All of the people against Jack and Jill, are you also against country clubs, too?



I wouldn't say "against"... to each his own.. but I really feel uncomfortable in elitist settings... which is funny because I have a lot of what might be considered elitist credentials... but it just feels so fake and artificial... because people see a degree or a school and they assume they know something about you....

I avoid country clubs, fraternities, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
.....and? has no relevance on the negative experiences of others.... and the pain that's caused..... are you suggesting that because you and other's have had positive experiences that this discounts others' negative experiences?


You're the one speaking in broad generalities, talking about "systemic mindsets". I am merely providing evidence to the contrary.

quote:
providing a culturally enriching environment for specific black children....


Yes. Those who are involved in the organization. bsm

quote:
flipping coin...... my side of the coin is the one we are discussing now....


Again, I'm not trying to deny you whatever experience you have. I am just offering evidence that suggests that your experiences are not universal ones.

quote:
and if it develops a reputation of looking down on those who do not have the opportunities..... then it should be expect to be looked at with a jaundiced eye


The organization does not "look down" on anyone - particularly other black people. Certain people may, but "looking down" is certainly not a behavior that is exclusive to any group or class of people.

quote:
I mean.... MBM... you have an entire organization of people that favor you... because of it.


First of all, that's just baloney! Please share whatever evidence you have to support your assertion. You know of someone who otherwise would have been a part of the organization except for their skin color?

Second, I was attempting humor. There are entire organizations that "favor" brown skin folks too. So what?

Third, as I mentioned, there is color discrimination within our community that cuts both ways. In what way can you attach that to this particular organizastion - particularly when I have first hand - multi-generational, multi-regional experience to the contrary.
Here is the picture of the current president. Does her hue look consistent with an organization that acts in the way that you describe about color?


Here's the VP.


Here's the Recording Secretary.


Here's the Corresponding Secretary.


Here's the Treasurer.


Here's the Editor.


And here's the National Program Director.


Here are the Regional Directors.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
You're the one speaking in broad generalities, talking about "systemic mindsets". I am merely providing evidence to the contrary.

If your position is "I have had positive experiences and many others that I know have....." then that is specific to you..... I am merely stating my specific experience contrary to yours......

and from that I am listening to others echo my response.... and the observation is something of a passive agressive position in your organiztion ........ one that affects others.... your positive experience only affects you and those who are admitted in your organization.....


quote:
Those who are involved in the organization. bsm

Yes.... MBM..... thanks for pointing this out..... you kept alluding to the organizations uplifing stance towards black children..... I wanted to point out that your use of its goals is a limited one.... not all black children are seen as worthy to receive its benefits..... just those who are "chosen" and according to you, I suppose, it has nothing to do with the class or status of their parents???

quote:
Again, I'm not trying to deny you whatever experience you have. I am just offering evidence that suggests that your experiences are not universal ones.



.....The organization does not "look down" on anyone - particularly other black people. Certain people may, but "looking down" is certainly not a behavior that is exclusive to any group or class of people.



First of all, that's just baloney! Please share whatever evidence you have to support your assertion. You know of someone who otherwise would have been a part of the organization except for their skin color?


you can't deny them..... because they are real.... but they are not my experiences alone.....


but I had to say this earlier in this post:

V: I do not think colorism plays as much a part as it used to..... at least not in DC/MD..... I think money and status trumps this now......

For instance here is what Shango had to say:


Shango: There was always talk about money and who has the most of it.

Titles were very important. "That is Dr. Blah Blah Blah daughter."

Kids were made to feel like shit if they did not go to a Ivy League school or a fancy private high school.

Originally posted by Shango67:
There is a color caste system and it seemed as if light skinned Africans were prefered over dark.



quote:
Second, I was attempting humor. There are entire organizations that "favor" brown skin folks too. So what?

I don't know entire organizations that "favor" brown skin folks.... but... we are not discussing those.... we are discussing this one that favors "light skinned" folks.... just because the opposite may exist does not discount the problems associated with the latter....

By the way ...... I almost laughed at your attempt at humor.... except this topic cuts too deep in many ways.... so your joke was in the distance next to my pain......


quote:
Third, as I mentioned, there is color discrimination within our community that cuts both ways.
MBM.... you don't know this but in many ways this is being taken as EXTREMELY insensitive..... I almost don't know how to explain it.... and in many ways I feel like I'm talking to a white guy about racism and having him come back and say racism cuts both ways..... there's so many layers to me bringing this issue up that you may not understand I'm almost speechless.....

yes, it cuts both ways...... in not the same way.... and not with the same depth, breadth, intensity or repercutions.....


quote:
In what way can you attach that to this particular organizastion - particularly when I have first hand - multi-generational, multi-regional experience to the contrary.


Tired... talk to Shango.... just because he's the closest one here... or maybe talk to someone who feels this way around you.... they know you and probably can better convey the sentiment...

Me?

I'm drained....


topic too close for comfort...

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
It amazes me that you can post what you do about color despite the photos of the women who run the organization. If I knew nothing about them, I'd say this organization discriminates against light complexioned women.



grrrrrr......


sigh....


quote:
but I had to say this earlier in this post:

V: I do not think colorism plays as much a part as it used to..... at least not in DC/MD..... I think money and status trumps this now......
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Here is the picture of the current president. Does her hue look consistent with an organization that acts in the way that you describe about color?


Here's the VP.


Here's the Recording Secretary.


Here's the Corresponding Secretary.


Here's the Treasurer.


Here's the Editor.


And here's the National Program Director.


Here are the Regional Directors.

ewwwwwwwwww! The majority of these sistas be frying up their hair. They represent the awful legacy of Madame C. J. Walker.
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Here is the picture of the current president. Does her hue look consistent with an organization that acts in the way that you describe about color?


Here's the VP.


Here's the Recording Secretary.


Here's the Corresponding Secretary.


Here's the Treasurer.


Here's the Editor.


And here's the National Program Director.


Here are the Regional Directors.

ewwwwwwwwww! The majority of these sistas be frying up their hair. They represent the awful legacy of Madame C. J. Walker.


Dont forget this is the front the company or organization is trying to sell, these can be token members...I'm just saying, its possible. I have friends of friends who are part of J&J and they disscuss color often
Like any other association, J&J is nothing more than a club; a "Black" American status "Symbol."

J&J is to Black America as
Porshe is to Sports Car.

It's that simple. Only problem is, there are too few Black Americans who can afford a porshe, while a porshe is probabaly a very good pre-requisite to J&J membership.

I personally have no interest in special interest groups, as the majority of which have no political clout because of their (inwardness), particularly special interest groups who do not do anything for HUMANITY at large.

Should I start a non-profit called "Lamar & Latoya" for BELOW average blacks, then parade my membership because I'm proad to live in an IMPOVERISHED neighborhood. Should I celebrate the fact that I live a life of "DEFICIT" not "EXCESS?" Oh, and not to mention, if I did these things, should I also keep my membership LIMITED so as not to begrudge the reputation of a Black American Organization befitting only those "UNFORTUNATES" who earn "NOT ENOUGH" to join?

Ok you get my point.
MBM, sorry I left you hanging, hearings left and right. Not that you will agree with what I am about to say but I agreed with all that you have offered since my last post on this issue.

It is unfortunate that those who have not been members feel the need to decry the merits.

You are all right, while they may be eligible all Black children will not be members of J&J, just like all Black children will not be members of the NAACP youth council, the Urban League teen group or the Crips and Bloods. It is called freedom of association.

You are right, J&J is a club that is expensive to join, you are right most Black folk cannot afford to join. If not being a member makes you feel so bad, make the money to join or ......Light a Candle and create your own organization, call it Hanzel and Gretal, or The Black Child Group, whatever you like. You will be free to have whatever criteria you want as the price of admission. There will always be haters, but the negative comments in this thread say one thing, Jealousy. Loud and Clear.

My J&J chapter had members of every hue in the Black Rainbow. The paper bag test is no longer a factor, and that is assuming it ever was. I have found that the people who talk about the paper bag test have never been present when it was used. I think that that suggestion is made by those who for whatever reason were not invited to join and want to bash the orgsanization. Oh and anybody can ask Vox, I could not pass the paper bag test if I wanted to try. Yes, I am darker than a paper bag and try to get darker during the Summer cause I love to lay out in the sun.

As African people we are tribal by nature, because of the Diaspora we are so mixed up that we now associate by common attributes. A common attribute for J&J is socializing Black kids who live in white areas with each other so that they have other kids to connect with who are going through what they are facing on a daily basis. Another common attribute in the case of J&J it is the focus on higher education and preparing kids to live and operate in this society. What I find funny, now that I have been thinking about J&J is that of all the girls that I knew in it, there were no teen pregnancies, guys did not father children in high school. The chapter I was in had 100% college attendance rate, with a graduation rate within 5 years, and 40% of us went on to graduate school right after college and another 30% went within 10 years of graduating from college. Those should be things people want for their children, but for some on this site, education =/= Black People.

J&J is about taking your kids to the next level, letting them know on in very real way on an intimate level that they are not alone, that being educated does not make you less Black and that living some subsistence lifestyle is not the only future for Black people, that you can and should enjoy all this world has to offer.

I wonder how many people saw the report that says that being Black and Smart means that you lose friends, it was on 20/20 and in the book Freakanomics. That book also extolled similarities of being a Beauty Pageant contestant and a Drug Dealer. That 20/20 episode had these Black kids getting called names because they were smart. Sad testament on the state of Black America where being mediocore seems to be all the rage and totally in fashion. I say be a trend setter and be smart.

So for all those that did not get in, like I said before, Everything ain't for everybody. J&J is exclusive for a reason. It is about values. If you don't share mine, no problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
There will always be haters, but the negative comments in this thread say one thing, Jealousy. Loud and Clear.
.............................
So for all those that did not get in, like I said before, Everything ain't for everybody. J&J is exclusive for a reason. It is about values. If you don't share mine, no problem.


Jealousy? Over what? Your fantastic values? ....18

So being smart means being loaded?

you know... it seems that you could make membership affordable and when the ignorant negroes try to get into your little club they'll turn back once they see all the nerds...they'll understand right away it's not for them... exclusivity problem solved without being a frickin' snob to boot...

You know... there are smart kids from the ghetto too... even ones that have gone on to get graduate degrees and are childless...

Geez... I'm not getting sucked into this one...Speechless...
quote:
I wonder how many people saw the report that says that being Black and Smart means that you lose friends, it was on 20/20 and in the book Freakanomics. That book also extolled similarities of being a Beauty Pageant contestant and a Drug Dealer. That 20/20 episode had these Black kids getting called names because they were smart. Sad testament on the state of Black America where being mediocore seems to be all the rage and totally in fashion. I say be a trend setter and be smart.

Being educated, staying out of trouble, carrying yourself with self respect, and coming from a family that teaches what is needed to survive in our world is not why Black folks are accused of "acting white."

Black folks who use the term "acting white" do so because they do not have the language to express what it is they know / believe to be true about the motives of their brethren. Most Black people know when they are in the company of a brother or sister who is uncomfortable wearing Black skin. The term acting white has nothing to do with the value systems you mentioned... the term acting white is reserved for the phenotypical African who openly rejects an empowering Black agenda, who prefers to define themselves as "other," who talks about living in a "color blind society" - and many, many, more types of anti-Black, anti African behavior. Normally those called out for acting white claim to be characterized as such because they are somehow the embodiment of all things good and productive - and this is a belief rooted in euro centric mythology... a belief that must be challenged at every turn... an ideal that is simply not true and allows Black folks to escape without having to look at themselves.

Our people know the enemy, even if they are are a Supreme Court Justice, Sec of State, or Chairman of the Joints Chief of Staff. We know when we are around self loathing, self deprecating negroes who define themselves through the blue eyes of white supremacist thought. I know when I am in the company of safe Black folks - and I stay away from handkerchief head, knee-slapping, over laughing, grinning, buck dancing, eye bulging negroes who needed the validation of white folks in order to get by.

I was a member of J&J (until I wised up), went to a fancy private school, got mostly A's and a few B's, 1400 SAT score (which was low in my school), played all types of sports including lacrosse (I walked around the hood with a lax stick in my hand) play chess, acted in school plays, carried books, studied Shotokan, went to college, pursuing a Ph.d... and I aint ever been accused by my people for acting white.

Black folks know a traitor when they see one!
Honestbrother, 20 get a life td6, . Why should we lower the price so folk could get in. Being called nerd is like being called White. fo

Oh by the way, did anybody check out Shango67, the only other person besides me and MBM to be former J&J partisipants. If it is really his picture, he could not pass the paper bag test either. 19 And he so proves the point that Everything Aint for Everybody, he hated J&J. It is about values.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
Honestbrother, 20 get a life td6, . Why should we lower the price so folk could get in. Being called nerd is like being called White. fo

Oh by the way, did anybody check out Shango67, the only other person besides me and MBM to be former J&J partisipants. If it is really his picture, he could not pass the paper bag test either. 19 And he so proves the point that Everything Aint for Everybody, he hated J&J. It is about values.


Nikcara, I have a Ph.D. (among other graduate degrees) - more than enough education for your little club - I can afford membership,... I even live in the 'right neighborhood'....hell, I'm a 'nerd' myself... I wasn't trying to call you a name... My point was that there are ways of remaining exclusive without being an economic snob - if educational values were all you really cared about...

But I doubt very much if educational values are all you care about ...and so I wouldn't be caught dead socializing with negroes like you...
quote:
If it is really his picture, he could not pass the paper bag test either. And he so proves the point that Everything Aint for Everybody, he hated J&J. It is about values.

My acceptance to J&J was based upon status... dad was a VP for a major airline and moms wrote computer programs used by the military for Grumman Aerospace. Fact is, there was very few dark folks (in that chapter) and other Jack and Jillians reminded me that I was dark EVERYDAY!
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
Being educated, staying out of trouble, carrying yourself with self respect, and coming from a family that teaches what is needed to survive in our world is not why Black folks are accused of "acting white."

Black folks who use the term "acting white" do so because they do not have the language to express what it is they know / believe to be true about the motives of their brethren. Most Black people know when they are in the company of a brother or sister who is uncomfortable wearing Black skin. The term acting white has nothing to do with the value systems you mentioned... the term acting white is reserved for the phenotypical African who openly rejects an empowering Black agenda, who prefers to define themselves as "other," who talks about living in a "color blind society" - and many, many, more types of anti-Black, anti African behavior. Normally those called out for acting white claim to be characterized as such because they are somehow the embodiment of all things good and productive - and this is a belief rooted in euro centric mythology... a belief that must be challenged at every turn... an ideal that is simply not true and allows Black folks to escape without having to look at themselves.

Our people know the enemy, even if they are are a Supreme Court Justice, Sec of State, or Chairman of the Joints Chief of Staff. We know when we are around self loathing, self deprecating negroes who define themselves through the blue eyes of white supremacist thought. I know when I am in the company of safe Black folks - and I stay away from handkerchief head, knee-slapping, over laughing, grinning, buck dancing, eye bulging negroes who needed the validation of white folks in order to get by.

I was a member of J&J (until I wised up), went to a fancy private school, got mostly A's and a few B's, 1400 SAT score (which was low in my school), played all types of sports including lacrosse (I walked around the hood with a lax stick in my hand) play chess, acted in school plays, carried books, studied Shotokan, went to college, pursuing a Ph.d... and I aint ever been accused by my people for acting white.

Black folks know a traitor when they see one!


Nice...


quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
there are ways of remaining exclusive without being an economic snob - if educational values were all you really cared about...

Exactly....
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

Nikcara, I have a Ph.D. (among other graduatee degrees) bow - more than enough education for your little club - I can afford membership,... appl I even live in the 'right neighborhood' appl....hell, I'm a 'nerd' myself... I wasn't trying to call you a name... 19 If it looks like a duck?

My point was that there are ways of remaining exclusive without being an economic snob Roll Eyes- Is this where you weren't calling me a name? Confused

if educational values were all you really cared about...

But I doubt very much if educational values are all you care about sleep...and so I wouldn't be caught dead socializing with negroes like you... hit
You assume to much Sir. Since I daresay, the feeling is more than mutual.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

Nikcara, I have a Ph.D. (among other graduatee degrees) bow - more than enough education for your little club - I can afford membership,... appl I even live in the 'right neighborhood' appl....hell, I'm a 'nerd' myself... I wasn't trying to call you a name... 19 If it looks like a duck?

My point was that there are ways of remaining exclusive without being an economic snob Roll Eyes- if educational values were all you really cared about...

But I doubt very much if educational values are all you care about sleep...and so I wouldn't be caught dead socializing with negroes like you... hit
You assume to much Sir. Since I daresay, the feeling is more than mutual.


Thank you for pulling out that nasty little 'tude you got there and illustrating for all to see reasons other than jealousy for people not to like J&J... You even convinced me and I was a fence-sitter... Nice going, chief tfro

I'm outty!...
I've stayed away from this intentionally, but I have a question or two:

From the Jack & Jill website:

OUR GOALS
The goals, found primarily in the objectives of Jack & Jill of America, Inc. serve as our constant guides. They are as follows:
"¢ To create a medium of contact for children which will stimulate their growth and development.
"¢ To provide constructive educational, cultural, civic, recreational, social and service programs for children
"¢ To aid mothers in learning more about their children by careful study
"¢ To seek for ALL children the same advantages we desire for our own
"¢ To support all national legislation aimed at bettering conditions for all children.


This appears to be opposite what former members here are saying about the organization. The organization's goals make no mention of status or wealth as prerequisites. No references are made to aiming for Black children living in predominately White communities. The goal appears to be to improve the quality of life for all African-American children.

Based on what the organization submits, is HB's request for reasonable dues valid? Don't smart, impoverished children need this message as well?:
quote:
J&J is about taking your kids to the next level, letting them know on in very real way on an intimate level that they are not alone, that being educated does not make you less Black and that living some subsistence lifestyle is not the only future for Black people, that you can and should enjoy all this world has to offer.
I recalled (when i was about 8 or so), certain family members wanted all of the children to join J&J.

We were told that we would be able to meet other children, of doctors, lawyers, etc..............but for me and the others, we didnt care.

It was a big fight....which ended, with no one joining.


The difference between then and now, is the fact that there are more AA with degrees, more doctors, lawyers, engineers, phds, etc.........and its not uncommon meeting and associating with people who are just like yourself.

I can understand this happening years ago.....but im not too sure, if it makes a difference today.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
This appears to be opposite what former members here are saying about the organization. The organization's goals make no mention of status or wealth as prerequisites. No references are made to aiming for Black children living in predominately White communities. The goal appears to be to improve the quality of life for all African-American children.

Based on what the organization submits, is HB's request for reasonable dues valid? Don't smart, impoverished children need this message as well?:
quote:
J&J is about taking your kids to the next level, letting them know on in very real way on an intimate level that they are not alone, that being educated does not make you less Black and that living some subsistence lifestyle is not the only future for Black people, that you can and should enjoy all this world has to offer.



quote:
Originally posted by virtue:

As in most organizations.....

there is what is preached....

and then there is what's practiced......
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
Being educated, staying out of trouble, carrying yourself with self respect, and coming from a family that teaches what is needed to survive in our world is not why Black folks are accused of "acting white."

Are you sure, because I have heard it more than once and not on this site. Oh and when I did hear it, it was not about me too... 19

Black folks who use the term "acting white" do so because they do not have the language to express what it is they know / believe to be true about the motives of their brethren. Confused Most Black people know when they are in the company of a brother or sister who is uncomfortable wearing Black skin. I can agree on this.

The term acting white has nothing to do with the value systems you mentioned... Disagree on that because that is not how the term has been used prior to your, novel interpretation....the term acting white is reserved for the phenotypical African who openly rejects an empowering Black agenda, who prefers to define themselves as "other," who talks about living in a "color blind society" - and many, many, more types of anti-Black, anti African behavior. Shango, you should really stop talking about Justic Thomas and Secretary of State Rice like that., it's not nice....... I personally feel quite sorry for those person and those of thier ilk, but that is thier cross to bear.

Normally those called out for acting white claim to be characterized as such because they are somehow the embodiment of all things good and productive - and this is a belief rooted in euro centric mythology... a belief that must be challenged at every turn...I agree an ideal that is simply not true and allows Black folks to escape without having to look at themselves.

Our people know the enemy, even if they are are a Supreme Court Justice, Sec of State, or Chairman of the Joints Chief of Staff. We know when we are around self loathing, self deprecating negroes who define themselves through the blue eyes of white supremacist thought. I agree whole heartedly.

I know when I am in the company of safe Black folks - and I stay away from handkerchief head, knee-slapping, over laughing, grinning, buck dancing, eye bulging negroes who needed the validation of white folks in order to get by. beer

I was a member of J&J (until I wised up), went to a fancy private school, got mostly A's and a few B's, 1400 SAT score (which was low in my school)[funny I don't even remember my SAT score, but 22 years ago, I digress....., played all types of sports including lacrosse (I walked around the hood with a lax stick in my hand)By the way, did they know what the lax stick was in the hood?...Just asking...... play chess, acted in school plays, carried books, studied Shotokan appl, went to college, pursuing a Ph.d... and I aint ever been accused by my people for acting white. cabbage Amen, I am glad you escaped the nightmare, you are unique but with all of that are you sure it was never said behind your back.....19 You look to tall and strapping for someone who wanted to speak ill of you to attempt a frontal assault. karate Just an observation.

Black folks know a traitor when they see one!
Yes, we do know the traitor, and they come often in sheeps clothing. Often screaming how Black they are, but in reality, they are just poverty pimps
Everything Aint for Everybody, he hated J&J.

quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
My acceptance to J&J was based upon status... dad was a VP for a major airline and moms wrote computer programs used by the military for Grumman Aerospace. Fact is, there was very few dark folks (in that chapter) and other Jack and Jillians reminded me that I was dark EVERYDAY!


Yes, it was based on status, but my point was that the hue of your skin was not a disqualifying attribute or you would not have gotten in even based on status. It also seems, that you were critized for being too Black while playing Lacrosse... I feel for you sound like you had a messed up chapter. Fortunatly that was not my experience. I had enough problems with white kids.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
Black folks know a traitor when they see one!
Yes, we do know the traitor, and they come often in sheeps clothing. Often screaming how Black they are, but in reality, they are just poverty pimps


That is a profound statement that speaks much truth. These are the ones that smile in your face while getting the dagger ready to stab you in the back
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

Thank you for pulling out that nasty little 'tude you got there and illustrating for all to see reasons other than jealousy for people not to like J&J... You even convinced me and I was a fence-sitter... Nice going, chief tfro

I'm outty!...


You get attitude with me and then I can't respond in kind? 17

Now who is 18
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

Thank you for pulling out that nasty little 'tude you got there and illustrating for all to see reasons other than jealousy for people not to like J&J... You even convinced me and I was a fence-sitter... Nice going, chief tfro

I'm outty!...


You get attitude with me and then I can't respond in kind? 17

Now who is 18



When you confuse "values/love of education" and "finances" (as if less wealthy people can't love learning) and then label all critics "jealous" as you did in the post to which I initially responded, I call that putting on some la-di-da A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E...

Live with it.
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quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
I've stayed away from this intentionally, but I have a question or two:

From the Jack & Jill website:

OUR GOALS
The goals, found primarily in the objectives of Jack & Jill of America, Inc. serve as our constant guides. They are as follows:
"¢ To create a medium of contact for children which will stimulate their growth and development.
"¢ To provide constructive educational, cultural, civic, recreational, social and service programs for children
"¢ To aid mothers in learning more about their children by careful study
"¢ To seek for ALL children the same advantages we desire for our own
"¢ To support all national legislation aimed at bettering conditions for all children.


This appears to be opposite what former members here are saying about the organization. The organization's goals make no mention of status or wealth as prerequisites. No references are made to aiming for Black children living in predominately White communities. The goal appears to be to improve the quality of life for all African-American children.

Based on what the organization submits, is HB's request for reasonable dues valid? Don't smart, impoverished children need this message as well?:
quote:
J&J is about taking your kids to the next level, letting them know on in very real way on an intimate level that they are not alone, that being educated does not make you less Black and that living some subsistence lifestyle is not the only future for Black people, that you can and should enjoy all this world has to offer.


Great point.

By being exclusive, they can't expect to give ALL children the advantages as their mission states.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:


When you confuse "values/love of education" and "finances" (as if less wealthy people can't love learning) and then label all critics "jealous" as you did in the post to which I initially responded, I call that putting on some la-di-da A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E...

Live with it.


I have confused nothing, and YOU have not read my comments. As to attitude, I give what I receive. Again Sir, you assume to your detriment. Also maybe you should not edit your comments so much after the fact. Just an observation.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
I have confused nothing, and YOU have not read my comments. As to attitude, I give what I receive. Again Sir, you assume to your detriment.


I read your post alright...I just reread it... I missed this the first time:

quote:

Those should be things people want for their children, but for some on this site, education =/= Black People.


Perhaps you assume to your detriment?.... And perhaps you should also read your own comments. I don't know about others but I found it really sorta off-putting (i.e., offensive). Even moreso the second time around...

quote:

Also maybe you should not edit your comments so much after the fact. Just an observation.


Implying what?
quote:

J&J is about taking your kids to the next level, letting them know on in very real way on an intimate level that they are not alone, that being educated does not make you less Black and that living some subsistence lifestyle is not the only future for Black people, that you can and should enjoy all this world has to offer.


This reminds me...I once dated a woman who grew up in J&J... She seemed to have this idea that she was entitled to a husband that would subsidize day trips to Macy's and whatever foreign travel she desired... I didn't like her attitude either...

Anyway, as for whether or not you've confused "values/love of education" and "finances" (as if less wealthy people can't love learning), you could have fooled me. You seem to be consistently equating the love of learning with high financial status.

Maybe you're right... J&J - and many of its members - aren't for everybody... hat
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quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

......you've confused "values/love of education" and "finances" (as if less wealthy people can't love learning).....
........You seem to be consistently equating the love of learning with high financial status.

Maybe you're right... J&J - and many of its members - aren't for everybody...

yeah
My problem with elitest organizations is these organizations often produce the negroes that represent us in mainstream america. These are the same negroes you see all over the tv carrying the water for the white man and telling everyone how bad blacks are , their situation is their fault and if they just pulled themselves up by their bootstraps they will be ok. But these people often dont live in the communities with the majority of black people and often times never associate with the everyday common black people who are the backbone of black culture. If you really look at it the black people who really made a difference for the masses of black people came from amoungs them. Even Jesus lived amoungst the poor. But somehow people are trying to push this talented tenth bullshyt over on people. What self respecting black person who loves their people would join an organization thats exclusive of the masses of its people? and can someone please tell me where in the hell did the name Jack and Jill come from?
J&J is for Black kids in all white areas to meet other Black kids in the same situation. So that those Black kids know that they are not the only ones going through a Norman Rockwell picture and you should know the one of which I speak. Call elitist, call it what ever you like. The point is that it is positive for most kids that participate in it. Funny thing is that for all the people on this thread that down J&J there are many more who still want to join. Wonder why? 19

People socialize in circles that they create all the time, most are not as formal as J&J but they do exist. You all know them well. Cliques in churches, choirs, political organization, lodges, reading groups, whatever you like, they are all socially limiting and self-serving. There are always people who want in but are excluded for whatever arbitrary and capricious reason. What gives a clique power is its ability to exclude. Not a single person on this thread who complained about J&J never once said F*** J&J, I am going to start my own club. I even made the explicit suggestion, but nobody took the bait. Be a part of the solution, Not a member of the sidelines who watches life go by.

So instead a lighting a candle, you all curse the night. Grow Up.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
J&J is for Black kids in all white areas to meet other Black kids in the same situation. So that those Black kids know that they are not the only ones going through a Norman Rockwell picture and you should know the one of which I speak. Call elitist, call it what ever you like. The point is that it is positive for most kids that participate in it. Funny thing is that for all the people on this thread that down J&J there are many more who still want to join. Wonder why? 19

People socialize in circles that they create all the time, most are not as formal as J&J but they do exist. You all know them well. Cliques in churches, choirs, political organization, lodges, reading groups, whatever you like, they are all socially limiting and self-serving. There are always people who want in but are excluded for whatever arbitrary and capricious reason. What gives a clique power is its ability to exclude. Not a single person on this thread who complained about J&J never once said F*** J&J, I am going to start my own club. I even made the explicit suggestion, but nobody took the bait. Be a part of the solution, Not a member of the sidelines who watches life go by.

So instead a lighting a candle, you all curse the night. Grow Up.



I didn't jump up to volunteer to start my own clique because I really despise cliquishness... it fundamentally cuts against my grain... I feel quite good just being me... I have no need whatsoever for a club to enhance my self-esteem... I am the source of my power...

I'll leave you to revel in your club and its power to exclude...

Grow up yourself .... Smile
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:


I didn't jump up to volunteer to start my own clique because I really despise cliquishness... it fundamentally cuts against my grain... I feel quite good just being me... I have no need whatsoever for a club to enhance my self-esteem...

I'll leave you to revel in your power to exclude...

Grow up yourself .... Smile



18....still curising the night Honestbrother.
I guess that the sidelines are where you want to be. Question, were you a male cheerleader in college or just a booster lol
quote:
Not a single person on this thread who complained about J&J never once said F*** J&J, I am going to start my own club. I even made the explicit suggestion, but nobody took the bait. Be a part of the solution, Not a member of the sidelines who watches life go by.

The reason why no one "took the bait" because starting a "club" off the negative energy of Jack and Jill would be a sophmoric event.

And be a part of what solution? Jack and Jill isn't part of any solution for Black peoples. It part of the problem.
quote:
I guess that the sidelines are where you want to be. Question, were you a male cheerleader in college or just a booster

From where I stand, it seems to me that Honest Brother used his time in college properly. For example, he would have never used the words "male cheerleader" together, cause he is learned enough to know that a cheerleader, by definition, is not gender specific.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:


I didn't jump up to volunteer to start my own clique because I really despise cliquishness... it fundamentally cuts against my grain... I feel quite good just being me... I have no need whatsoever for a club to enhance my self-esteem...

I'll leave you to revel in your power to exclude...

Grow up yourself .... Smile



18....still curising the night Honestbrother.
I guess that the sidelines are where you want to be. Question, were you a male cheerleader in college or just a booster lol



Neither... I was too busy being a student... I graduated summa cum laude and am a member of several national honor societies... and I've never particularly cared for college sports... I'm happy to report that as an undergraduate, graduate student, and now as university faculty member I've never attended (or even watched) a single college sporting event Razz


Question: Have you always been a trifling bitch or is that just recent? Smile
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quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
quote:
Not a single person on this thread who complained about J&J never once said F*** J&J, I am going to start my own club. I even made the explicit suggestion, but nobody took the bait. Be a part of the solution, Not a member of the sidelines who watches life go by.

The reason why no one "took the bait" because starting a "club" off the negative energy of Jack and Jill would be a sophmoric event.

And be a part of what solution? Jack and Jill isn't part of any solution for Black peoples. It part of the problem.



thanks yeah appl

We already have too many negroes trying to feel special by joining their little clubs... instead of doing something for the people that actually has merit...

PS: Ever notice that gangs are cliques too?
quote:
J&J is for Black kids in all white areas to meet other Black kids in the same situation. So that those Black kids know that they are not the only ones going through a Norman Rockwell picture and you should know the one of which I speak.


Go back to my post of goals directly from the Jack & Jill site. No where does it mention the purpose described in your quote...

Many times, people join social clubs to gain/maintain status & network. If an organization is unreasonably exclusionary, don't try to rationalize why. Just accept the flaw (if you like the status quo) or work to correct the problem.
MBM... you were a member of J&J??!!

I never even heard of it until I got to college...

I have just scanned through this thread, so I haven't really gotten all points of view...

MBM would you recommend it for your kids? Would anybody else? Shango you don't have to answer, I think your view is pretty clear...

I have a cousin that's a member, she and her member friends so seem to be somewhat elitist... I haven't really known anybody else to be that way though...
I think it's important to differentiate between intent and impact here. There can be no question that the impact of J&J is elitist. IMO to think that it is an objective of the group however - to segregate from other African Americans - is just inaccurate. For better or for worse, professional blacks have a set of common experiences and interests that - like any group - are best addressed by others who share those same experiences. For example, trying to survive as an African American in corporate America can be a tremendously taxing thing. The commiseration and counsel of someone in that same boat can be of great benefit. Fighting for your black child in a white school is a real challenge for many African American families. Trading best practices and just generally providing support for others with the same challenges can be tremendously important. Now the impact of that interaction is - no doubt - exclusionary and elitist (if you don't share the same experience you aren't a part of that "circle"), but can one really say that the intent of that interaction is to be such?

HB - I think I read that you went to Princeton. Your intent was certainly not elitist, but can you argue that the impact of attending that university is not?

We're all communicating via the internet - an activity that - while less so every year - is still an elitist, exclusive activity. There are plenty of African Americans who do not have the luxury to "chill" online here. Our impact may be elitist, but do you believe that our intent is to segregate ourselves from other black folks? Are we trying to "get away" from other black folks by communicating online where they can't get to us? Confused

Of course there are some people who do things for the wrong reasons. Of course I'm sure J&J has its fair share of those folks as well. That said, I just think it is wholly unfair to try to judge the intent of an entire organization by looking narrowly at its impact - particularly when there seem to be other unrelated issues/perceptions that might be impacting the perception of J&J as well. Beyond that, I can tell you without question that every family that I have ever had experience with in Jack & Jill is as committed to the uplift of African America as anyone else here. To try to judge them as human beings (or as African Americans) based upon the narrow sliver of life that is their involvement in J&J is just unfair.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
HB - I think I read that you went to Princeton. Your intent was certainly not elitist, but can you argue that the impact of attending that university is not?


By the way, I rarely tell people this in real life... and I avoid alumni events like the plague... I can act the part of a snob ... but I really am not...

MBM, I perfectly well understand the potential benefit of an organization like J&J ... I perfectly well understand the benefits of people who share similar experiences pooling together their knowledge, resources, and support... and I realize that it's the very nature of the game that some will be excluded...

I'm not opposed in theory to this... I'm not even opposed in practice...

But what I really don't like is the self-consciously exclusionary attitudes that I see actively cultivated in certain circles... ahem... cough... ahem ... and the phony ass sense of entitled superiority that I detect coming from some quarters....

Yes... I'm a Princeton grad... and one of my best friends is a former homeless man who now lives in a housing project...
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quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

Yes... I'm a Princeton grad... and one of my best friends is a former homeless man who now lives in a housing project...


And you perfectly illustrate my point. Just because you busted your ass and did what it took to get in (an out) of Princeton doesn't mean that - by definition - you are an elitist snob. That one experience doesn't define who you are - despite the fact that millions of people are rejected in trying to accomplish what you did in going there. tfro Similarly, just because someone puts their kids in J&J doesn't mean that they are necessarily an elitist snob either.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

Yes... I'm a Princeton grad... and one of my best friends is a former homeless man who now lives in a housing project...


And you perfectly illustrate my point. Just because you busted your ass and did what it took to get in (an out) of Princeton doesn't mean that - by definition - you are an elitist snob. That one experience doesn't define who you are - despite the fact that millions of people are rejected in trying to accomplish what you did in going there. tfro Similarly, just because someone puts their kids in J&J doesn't mean that they are necessarily an elitist snob either.



Agreed... point well taken...
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

Neither... I was too busy being a student... I graduated summa cum laude and am a member of several national honor societies... and I've never particularly cared for college sports... I'm happy to report that as an undergraduate, graduate student, and now as university faculty member I've never attended (or even watched) a single college sporting event Razz


Question: Have you always been a trifling bitch or is that just recent? Smile



Honestbrother, I can truly tell you are a college grad 19 Confused and that you finished graduate school 19 Confused but your choice terms that are as base as your 18 mentality. hit But then again you have proven on more than one occasion that you are not comfortable conversing with polite society even when given the opportunity. I guess you are not used to people challenging your perceptions or conclusions since you are sooooo educated. However, I do disagree with you and I am at just as much liberty to express myself as you are.

quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
From where I stand, it seems to me that Honest Brother used his time in college properly. For example, he would have never used the words "male cheerleader" together, cause he is learned enough to know that a cheerleader, by definition, is not gender specific.


First I was a cheerleader in High School and College, and am I Pop Warner Coach thus I know the vernacular well and used the term correctly, something that you obviously do not know. Second, your negative experience with J&J merely proves the point that "Everything ain't for everybody". Third, you too should light a candle. You have a lot of hostility about a program you did not enjoy,..... touch a chord , that other people did enjoy. But then again, your posts, that I have read, express a lot of hostility and not a lot of solutions. It is funny that we, You, Honestbrother and me would ever agree on any issue. But alas we did, and we will probably agree again. That is life in a complex world, what can I say.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
Honestbrother, I can truly tell you are a college grad 19 Confused and that you finished graduate school 19 Confused but your choice terms that are as base as your 18 mentality. hit


You know nothing of my mentality. Except that I call them like I see them. If you have a problem with anything I've said then maybe you need to check yourself .... You simply must excuse us poor negroes from the lower classes - who were denied the civilizing light of Jack and Jill. We tend to be very straightforward in expressing our thoughts. We don't beat around the bushes like you bourgie types.

Like I said, I call them like I see them...


quote:

But then again you have proven on more than one occasion that you are not comfortable conversing with polite society even when given the opportunity. I guess you are not used to people challenging your perceptions or conclusions since you are sooooo educated. However, I do disagree with you and I am at just as much liberty to express myself as you are.


Nikcara, the problem, as I see it, is not that we're disagreeing. See my exchange with MBM... I have not come out against J&J. My position is not the same as Shango. I haven't come to any conclusions about J&J other than that some of its members are really insufferable asses. But, as MBM observed, that does not constitute an objection to the organization per se... I would hope that a lawyer would have the skill to actually follow the logical progression of a discussion.

The problem, as I see it, is that you're putting on airs, made the mistake of trying to out-snob a snob who has no tolerance for snobs, and don't know how to keep yourself in check.

But so be it...I'm done wasting my time here with you on this subject... you're too busy trying to save face to actually have a productive discussion... Good day ... hat
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Okay ... Okay .... Folks,

Everything ain't for everybody; but do YOUR thing.

J&J is an organization that is not inherently elitist; the members in this or that particular chapter may be, but the organization is not.

Why do Black folk devolve into, it's not for ME so it's a bad thing for all Black people? I think it's been shown that J&J has a legitimate purpose: to get Black children together with other Black children. That is a good thing. Period.

If you think the organization is not for you ... So what? Don't put your kids in it.

If you think the organization is elitist ... So what? Don't put your kids in it.

Personally, I like the idea of having an organization where my kid can associate and socialize with other Black kids. And, if these kids common from similar circumstances, e.g., similar economic status, similar educational experiences, etc, all the better. If that makes me an elitist ... Well ... Okay and so what?

Frankly, I don't care, nor can I imagine why anyone else would care, about a detractor's opinion of an organization that they have no intention of joining, and have no power to prevent me from joining.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Okay ... Okay .... Folks,

Everything ain't for everybody; but do YOUR thing.

J&J is an organization that is not inherently elitist; the members in this or that particular chapter may be, but the organization is not.

Why do Black folk devolve into, it's not for ME so it's a bad thing for all Black people? I think it's been shown that J&J has a legitimate purpose: to get Black children together with other Black children. That is a good thing. Period.

If you think the organization is not for you ... So what? Don't put your kids in it.

If you think the organization is elitist ... So what? Don't put your kids in it.

Personally, I like the idea of having an organization where my kid can associate and socialize with other Black kids. And, if these kids common from similar circumstances, e.g., similar economic status, similar educational experiences, etc, all the better. If that makes me an elitist ... Well ... Okay and so what?

Frankly, I don't care, nor can I imagine why anyone else would care, about a detractor's opinion of an organization that they have no intention of joining, and have no power to prevent me from joining.


I'd say you've about summed it up, K4R...
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Okay ... Okay .... Folks,

Everything ain't for everybody; but do YOUR thing.

J&J is an organization that is not inherently elitist; the members in this or that particular chapter may be, but the organization is not.

Why do Black folk devolve into, it's not for ME so it's a bad thing for all Black people? I think it's been shown that J&J has a legitimate purpose: to get Black children together with other Black children. That is a good thing. Period.

If you think the organization is not for you ... So what? Don't put your kids in it.

If you think the organization is elitist ... So what? Don't put your kids in it.

Personally, I like the idea of having an organization where my kid can associate and socialize with other Black kids. And, if these kids common from similar circumstances, e.g., similar economic status, similar educational experiences, etc, all the better. If that makes me an elitist ... Well ... Okay and so what?

Frankly, I don't care, nor can I imagine why anyone else would care, about a detractor's opinion of an organization that they have no intention of joining, and have no power to prevent me from joining.


Amen
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

You know nothing of my mentality. Except .....


lol Did you realize how illogical that sounded when you wrote it or did you not get a chance to edit and change your post before I responded?

quote:

I haven't come to any conclusions about J&J other than .....


Again, coming to one conclusion oppose your original statement yet you question my logic. Indeed. 20


quote:
I would hope that a lawyer would have the skill to actually follow the logical progression of a discussion.


YOU want to test my skill with these logic flaw, come into my courtroom said the Attorney to the Pro Se litigant. wel

quote:

The problem, as I see it, is that you're putting on airs, made the mistake of trying to out-snob a snob who has no tolerance for snobs, and don't know how to keep yourself in check.


Sounds like you just made the tacit admission that you are a snob. I never said that I was one, nor did I claim to be one. I merely stated facts regarding J&J, my participation therein and snippets about my life. You interpretation about what those facts mean says much more about you insecurity then anything else. I am sure your freshman psyche 101 class covered Projection and Negative Reflection.

Finally the likes of you could never check me so again we disagree. Oh, and by the way the reference to us agreeing deals with another thread, I thought you could keep up with multiple conversations, my bad. I have no reason to save face, simply put you have said nothing that would cause me shame. I am who I am and have been consistently so since I joined this thread. But I do hope you have a nice day as well.


quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

You know nothing of my mentality. Except that I call them like I see them. If you have a problem with anything I've said then maybe you need to check yourself .... You simply must excuse us poor negroes from the lower classes - who were denied the civilizing light of Jack and Jill. We tend to be very straightforward in expressing our thoughts. We don't beat around the bushes like you bourgie types.

Like I said, I call them like I see them...


quote:

But then again you have proven on more than one occasion that you are not comfortable conversing with polite society even when given the opportunity. I guess you are not used to people challenging your perceptions or conclusions since you are sooooo educated. However, I do disagree with you and I am at just as much liberty to express myself as you are.


Nikcara, the problem, as I see it, is not that we're disagreeing. See my exchange with MBM... I have not come out against J&J. My position is not the same as Shango. I haven't come to any conclusions about J&J other than that some of its members are really insufferable asses. But, as MBM observed, that does not constitute an objection to the organization per se... I would hope that a lawyer would have the skill to actually follow the logical progression of a discussion.

The problem, as I see it, is that you're putting on airs, made the mistake of trying to out-snob a snob who has no tolerance for snobs, and don't know how to keep yourself in check.

But so be it...I'm done wasting my time here with you on this subject... you're too busy trying to save face to actually have a productive discussion... Good day ... hat
quote:
you are not comfortable conversing with polite society even when given the opportunity.


Polite society is so often such a bore and they are so caught up in their ego trip they assume others want to be like them. It seems mostly they can't conceive of people not wanting to be like them. And if it finally gets through their heads, which is unlikely, they get pi$$ed off. lol

I found the egos of a lot of the White guys in the fraternity I was in really hilarious. Classism is a bigger deal than racism in many ways and it can't be separated from economics.

But I think the distribution of knowledge and the classism created by the educational system can be seriously denteded with the internet.

umbrarchist
quote:
Originally posted by Nikcara:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

You know nothing of my mentality. Except .....


lol Did you realize how illogical that sounded when you wrote it or did you not get a chance to edit and change your post before I responded?


If you remove the period and follow the natural flow of the utterance there was not a thing illogical about the statement. If you haven't noticed, I tend to use punctuation to indicate speech rhythms. The period was intended to indicate a pause.

Don't you realize that the grammatical/logical function of phrases like "except that" and "other than" is to qualify an utterance by admitting exceptions to an otherwise general statement?

quote:
Nikcara:

quote:
Honestbrother:
The problem, as I see it, is that you're putting on airs, made the mistake of trying to out-snob a snob who has no tolerance for snobs, and don't know how to keep yourself in check.


Sounds like you just made the tacit admission that you are a snob. I never said that I was one, nor did I claim to be one.



Yes. Good... You can read appl I did indeed make the tacit admission that I'm a snob. That was my intention. I also made the observation that you are a snob... although apparently you aren't prepared to accept the truth about yourself.

quote:
Nikcara:
I merely stated facts regarding J&J, my participation therein and snippets about my life.


You said much more than that, my dear. You laughed at the idea that the membership fee be lowered so that more people can benefit from the organization. When everyone else involved on this thread expressed varying degrees of disgust at your arrogant callousness, you then went about rationalizing your stance by touting the idea that being exclusive is really such a great thing. Clubs and cliques are part of the human condition after all... according to you. Abracadabra! The solution is to just go out and start your own exclusive clique!

Don't f*ck with me, dearie ... I and everyone else here can read...

quote:
Nikcara:
Finally the likes of you could never check me so again we disagree.


Honey, I'll check you all the way past the cash register, through the door, and into the parking lot... all day... every day... every goddamned week of the year...

quote:
Nikcara:
Oh, and by the way the reference to us agreeing deals with another thread, I thought you could keep up with multiple conversations, my bad.


I knew exactly to what you were referring. It was to the thread on the crisis of African American motherhood. What made you think I didn't know?

quote:
Nikcara:
I have no reason to save face, simply put you have said nothing that would cause me shame.


Yep... I guess you got so much mud on your face you can't tell the difference no more... munch

I was trying to be a gentleman with the offer to bury the hatchet. I'm not going to do it again.

What up? You want to have my baby?


PS: You're putting on airs and trifling again... Roll Eyes
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Umbra, I aims to please... I 'm glad someone is getting a kick out of this silliness...


I think the cultural differences are hopeless.

Nikcara wrote:
quote:
First I was a cheerleader in High School and College, and am I Pop Warner Coach thus I know the vernacular well and used the term correctly, something that you obviously do not know.


I went to four basketball games the entire time I was in high school and that was freshman year. Playing sports could be fun and a nice way to exercise when the other players don't get too serious about it. But that is what has happened with a lot of Black men. I noticed in that fraternity that the jocks and the NROTCs (pronounced neurotics, Navy ROTC) had similar types of mentalities.

I have concluded that high school sports and competition between schools helps foster the mentality Europeans need to produce their armies for their military power games.

Discussing sports with a cheerleader?? Rah, Rah, Rah! lol lol lol

The EuroAmerican Dream

Who the hell is Pop Warner? lol

http://www.popwarner.com/

Found it.

We've got, books, computer and the internet. Why do we need this for real scholarship?

umbra
You know Honestbrother, you and Shango67 are really troubled on a number of levels. Suffice it to say, after this post I have said all I have to say to either of you on this topic. I will treat you like I treat another poster on this site, I will simply decline to entertain the mostly internally inconsistent drivel the two of you post even during those rare moments when a salient point is made to which I also subscribe.

Honestbrother, as to your newest assertion and despite you very charming offer I, regretfully decline your offer to mix your DNA with mine.

Shango67, I am disappointed, but not at all surprised, that you would attempt to speak ill of the Special Olympics which is a very important and vibrant organization. You words speak volumes about your hostility and your character.
quote:
I am disappointed, but not at all surprised, that you would attempt to speak ill of the Special Olympics which is a very important and vibrant organization


Hey, Isn't that another exclusive organization? lol

But changing the flow a bit ...

This thread got me to thinking, actually questioning, what is so bad about being of the Black community's elite?

The fact is, everyone on this site IS a part of the Black community's elite. We should not deny it, apologize for it or accept being stigmatized by our fortune and/or hardwork. And we have a duty to communicate to our children that they are socially and economically gifted and that there are other socially and economically gifted Black children. It goes along way to combatting the negative images our children are bombarded with daily.

Editorial note: Please replace each pronoun with the appropriate personal pronoun. I cannot speak for anyone other than myself.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
quote:
I am disappointed, but not at all surprised, that you would attempt to speak ill of the Special Olympics which is a very important and vibrant organization


Hey, Isn't that another exclusive organization? lol

But changing the flow a bit ...

This thread got me to thinking, actually questioning, what is so bad about being of the Black community's elite?

The fact is, everyone on this site IS a part of the Black community's elite. We should not deny it, apologize for it or accept being stigmatized by our fortune and/or hardwork. And we have a duty to communicate to our children that they are socially and economically gifted and that there are other socially and economically gifted Black children. It goes along way to combatting the negative images our children are bombarded with daily.

Editorial note: Please replace each pronoun with the appropriate personal pronoun. I cannot speak for anyone other than myself.



K4R, there isn't anything wrong with being part of the elite... but with that position also comes some responsibility IMO

I was absolutely aghast at the classism expressed by a certain someone... who seemed to indirectly suggest that poor black people don't value learning... that being part of that little clique made you somehow superior to other black people...

Why?

Because I don't come from wealth... I don't even come from the middle class... I come from the black working and lower class...

Yet I lived in mixed mostly white (working class) neighborhoods... though I also lived in housing projects at certain points... and I excelled academically in environments where I was often racially alone...

I.e., by the stated goals of the organization, I would have been the perfect candidate for J&J...

But my family would have not been able to afford membership...


My early life story is a case study in battling the academic odds alone... And there are many more like me...

But so what? says a certain someone... Roll Eyes ...

Excuse me if I don't find this shit to be funny....

This is not to center the discussion on me... it's to explain my stance in this thread and point out the dangers of elitist attitudes... Yes... be the elite... be proud of it...

But don't just sit on your proud azz and be absolutely useless to anyone outside your little clique of those who are like you and have "made it".... not only useless but an obstruction... something I believe to be the case for large portions of the black middle class...
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quote:
that you would attempt to speak ill of the Special Olympics which is a very important and vibrant organization

I was speaking ill of YOU, not the Special Olympics.
quote:
I will treat you like I treat another poster on this site, I will simply decline to entertain the mostly internally inconsistent drivel the two of you post even during those rare moments when a salient point is made to which I also subscribe.

I am very consistent.

and

I will not lose any sleep over you not addressing me. I have been ignored by better people.
what about the poor black kids in the cities where these chapters are? Are there any programs within the organization to bring in promising poor black children to expose them to the more affluent aspects of black society. Are they welcome? has anyone in the organization suggesting incorporating this aspect of the black community?
I would like to share this with you:

I was talking to an elderly member of my family last night about family history in the small southern town my family comes from. This particular section of the family is light, bright and next to white and one family member was known to have passed for white. She told me, there was a lot of mixing(races) in this small town and the white folks if they liked you, you did better than most. For example, she had an uncle who had murdered a man and didn't serve a day because he was well liked by a prominent white man and he kept him from serving time. But what surprised her most was what WE did to each other in this small town. She said there were acts of harsh brutality, cruelty and envy amongst our folks that made no sense to her. Her exact words, " Not to say the whites didn't hurt us but I couldn't believe how we could hurt each other."

And, as I was reading some of the posts here, I felt a sense of what she was saying.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

So now that I'm a part of the black middle class why the hell should I send my kids to an organization that would not have accepted me?


Why did you do the things required to become a part of "the black middle class"?


By middle class, I meant economically middle class...I did those things because I loved to learn.

I had no precedents... little guidance... NEXT TO NO SUPPORT... but I did those things which came naturally to me... being and expressing myself... despite the odds ... despite the pressures to conform... active discouragement...

I'm the living walking proof that a certain poster is full of it...

I was a working class black kid who loved to learn, who loved to read, and did so at every opportunity.

That's how and why I did the things that led to my present economic status...

PS:

There is the black middle class: those who are black and have middle class economic status...

And then there is the Black Middle Class - those are middle class negroes with a certain mentality...
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

So now that I'm a part of the black middle class why the hell should I send my kids to an organization that would not have accepted me?


Why did you do the things required to become a part of "the black middle class"?


By middle class, I meant economically middle class...I did those things because I loved to learn.

I had no precedents... little guidance... NEXT TO NO SUPPORT... but I did those things which came naturally to me... being and expressing myself... despite the odds ... despite the pressures to conform... active discouragement...

I'm the living walking proof that a certain poster is full of it...

I was a working class black kid who loved to learn, who loved to read, and did so at every opportunity.

That's how and why I did the things that led to my present economic status...


So would you value those same attributes for your children - education, love of reading/learning, etc.? Despite your achievements without counsel, would you thnk it appropriate to offer your children guidance in those areas so they can maximize their personal potential? Would you hope that they have similar opportunities and experiences that you have?
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

So now that I'm a part of the black middle class why the hell should I send my kids to an organization that would not have accepted me?


Why did you do the things required to become a part of "the black middle class"?


By middle class, I meant economically middle class...I did those things because I loved to learn.

I had no precedents... little guidance... NEXT TO NO SUPPORT... but I did those things which came naturally to me... being and expressing myself... despite the odds ... despite the pressures to conform... active discouragement...

I'm the living walking proof that a certain poster is full of it...

I was a working class black kid who loved to learn, who loved to read, and did so at every opportunity.

That's how and why I did the things that led to my present economic status...


So would you value those same attributes for your children - education, love of reading/learning, etc.? Despite your achievements without counsel, would you thnk it appropriate to offer your children guidance in those areas so they can maximize their personal potential? Would you hope that they have similar opportunities and experiences that you have?


Of course! Most definitely!.... I'd want to nurture the best in them so that they realize their full potential... and I would hope they would have better experiences than I had... certainly an easier time of it... I did not have an easy time of it...

But I'd have some serious reservations about sending them to an organization that might socialize them to look down on someone like their own father (when he was younger).
quote:
Of course! Most definitely!....

But I'd have some serious reservations about sending them to an organization that might socialize them to look down on someone like their own father (when he was younger).


HonestBrother,

I would say that it is your job as a parent to expose your children to other Black children with whom they share a common social/economic status. But along with that obligation, it is also your job to teach your child to respect all people.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

But I'd have some serious reservations about sending them to an organization that might socialize them to look down on someone like their own father (when he was younger).


Alas - we come back to the same point. 15 WIthout regurgitating past arguments ad infinitem, I'll just leave it that J&J doesn't "socialize" anyone to "look down" on anoyone.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
quote:
Of course! Most definitely!....

But I'd have some serious reservations about sending them to an organization that might socialize them to look down on someone like their own father (when he was younger).


HonestBrother,

I would say that it is your job as a parent to expose your children to other Black children with whom they share a common social/economic status. But along with that obligation, it is also your job to teach your child to respect all people.



It would depend on the particular chapter of J&J...

Having met many of the black middle class in this area, I'd almost rather my kids be socialized in certain majority white settings...

Why would I send my kids to face the children of people I myself can't stand?
Excuse me, folks, but I recall reading about the Jack & Jill organization in a book called "The Color Complex" a while back. On page 25 of this book, it says the following:

{snip} To this day exclusive Black social clubs like Jack & Jill and Links have a significant majority of light-skinned members. Many churches, schools, sororities, fraternities, businesses, and even neighborhoods are also reputed to be partial to light-skinned Blacks.

Virtually every major urban center across the country has a section where predominantly light-skinned Blacks reside. In Philadelphia, mulattos live in areas unofficially called "lighty brighty" and "banana block." In Chicago, the Black bourgeoisie can be found in Chatham and East Hyde Park, and in New York, certain sections of Harlem remain reserved for descendants of the light-skinned mulatto elite. {snip}

Fab: Oh, and here's what it says about the paper-bag test. . .

The paper-bag test involved placing an arm inside a brown paper bag, and only if the skin on the arm was lighter than the color of the bag would a prospective member be invited to attend church services.

Authors of the Color Complex:

Kathy Russelll
Midge Wilson
Ronald Hall

*Now, I offer this as additional information. No way do I want any part of this dispute. I am but a po black (brown skin) woman trying to stay off welfare...hoping the library doesn't kick my black a** off the computer before I'm done posting. Smile

Carry on people. . .and peace.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

But I'd have some serious reservations about sending them to an organization that might socialize them to look down on someone like their own father (when he was younger).


Alas - we come back to the same point. 15 WIthout regurgitating past arguments ad infinitem, I'll just leave it that J&J doesn't "socialize" anyone to "look down" on anoyone.


Again, you're right in theory... according to the official goals of the organization...

But particular chapters are made up of real people... with real attitudes ... and they convey those attitudes in many subtle ways... and a group of people with similar unexamined attitudes create an atmosphere...

Like I said, it would depend on the particular chapter of J&J...

I might consider joining some... It depends.
HonestBrother,

I would say that it is your job as a parent to expose your children to other Black children with whom they share a common social/economic status. But along with that obligation, it is also your job to teach your child to respect all people.


Why would you raise your children to affiliate with people based on economic and social status? why not raise your children to affiliate with people with character, self respect and a sense of pride in who they are? When them majority of black people are working class and poor, why would we play into classism? I sense people in here agress with class status and bullcrap like that. I truely believe the whole 1960;s intergration game was to allow the elites of black society to have the opportunity to assoicate with the elites in the white community.Once they found out the Whites do not want them regardless of their economic status they became salty. Then you began to see all these suburbanite blacks who tryin to run from poor blacks end up caught between the inner city and the outer rigs of the suburbs. All in all the intergration strategy only helped the middle classes while the masses became poorer. Now in this information age we want to continue to perpetuate this bourgeoisie lifestyle.
quote:
Jack and Jill has little to do with elitism within African America. As I see it, it is about trying to maintain cultural integrity within largely white suburban communities. The families come from the ranks of the professional and college educated. To the degree that that is elitist, it is. But the purpsose is to instill pride and establish links among African American children where they might not always exist.

I grew up in a white suburb of Boston in the highly racist 1970's. Jack and Jill was a tool to keep me connected with other black kids. It was not the only vehicle for that purpose, and I certainly had contact with black kids throughout the spectrum of African America, but it was a great way to connect with other black kids - not only in my town - but from around the country.


I have a few friends that come from this background. My wife gets invitations to events given by the Links. She stopped going a couple of years ago.

I think I gained real insight about the Black bourgeoisie when my book club read "Our Kind of People".

It's kind of funny. Oprah just did a piece on Class in America. A lot of people associate being upper class with wealth and education but for these people it's also about pedigree as well. They are "old money".

People like Bill Cosby or Oprah would not be "their kind of people" based on their family background.

I think what MBM said WAS true when these people first started this stuff. It was a way for black people who were succeeding in a racist society to provide a positive environment but it's apparent that is turned into something ugly.

I'm all for positive environments but not if they create black snobs and people who think that they are "superior" to others (black and white) based on who their great grandparents were or where they went school or how much money they have.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
Why would you raise your children to affiliate with people based on economic and social status? why not raise your children to affiliate with people with character, self respect and a sense of pride in who they are?


I like this idea... Let's start a national organization that teaches black kids the value of learning, character, self-respect, and pride in who they are?

That does not exclude people based on income, skin shade, or pedigree?

And we can call it Shango & Yemaya ?

And for those who still want some groupings based somewhat on status, a chapter based in the burbs is naturally going to draw its members largely from the burbs.

I say this half seriously... but wouldn't this be more useful to us?
quote:
I have found that the people who talk about the paper bag test have never been present when it was used


Confused

Is this type of thinking like Nazi who say the Holocaust never happened...if you don't see it for yourself it didn't happen????

quote:
Those should be things people want for their children, but for some on this site, education =/= Black People.


People do want these things. The point is that some don't have the resources that J&J says it provides to black children because it is ONLY for CERTAIN black childern. So it's hard for people to see J&J as some type of "positive" organization for black people. It's not. It's for wealthy people or "people who can afford it" as you pointed out. But even if people come from money the organization is "selective" in who it admits

As for the change in skin color of members, that means nothing since the point is that J&J, Links and other such organizations focus on M O N E Y!

quote:
It is about values
bang

VALUES!! What values? The value of MONEY?

Sad values

P.S. Just because people find flaws with and organization YOU have had a positive experience with doesn't mean they are "haters" or jealous.

That sounds like something a snobby person would say. So does "Everything ain't for everybody". – sounds a little like "let them eat cake. td6

Not everyone sits around lamenting because they "weren't invited" to join
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

But I'd have some serious reservations about sending them to an organization that might socialize them to look down on someone like their own father (when he was younger).


Alas - we come back to the same point. 15 WIthout regurgitating past arguments ad infinitem, I'll just leave it that J&J doesn't "socialize" anyone to "look down" on anoyone.


Again, you're right in theory... according to the official goals of the organization...

But particular chapters are made up of real people... with real attitudes ... and they convey those attitudes in many subtle ways... and a group of people with similar unexamined attitudes create an atmosphere...

Like I said, it would depend on the particular chapter of J&J...

I might consider joining some... It depends.




I think this is the best way to look at it.

Living in an area with just .5% black, it was hard at times, not knowing where i belonged. (I didnt realize this until i got older) The only thing that saved me from feeling so bad, about my situation........was the fact that i have such a large family.......and we are all very close.

That should be the atmosphere, when joining a group such as this. Do your research prior to allowing your children to join.

But please dont think for one minute, just because you can provide for your children financially, that they are not going to have social issues. They will be put in a position, in which they will have to defend themselves in every direction.

Again my feelings are that there are more professionals, with children (not in my area), and maybe your children will have someone to relate to. But if not.......leave this as an option, dont close the door to the idea.
I can relate to HonestBrother. J&J gave me the cold shoulder (raised by single mom, not poor but barely rated as "middle class"..and I mean BARELY). Now that I currently meet thier "standards" I'm averse to having my daughter become part of the organization. But I do see Nicaras point as well. I'm creating an investment club and I do plan on having a "standard" myself for it. *shrugs shoulders* To each his own I guess...
Classism ony destroys the black community. A few wealthy blacks banding together spending their money within themselves or outside the mainstream of the black community doesnt benifit the community. But just as the house negro enjoyed his high status on the Master Plantation but really have no regard for the masses in the field catching hell.Its cool though at the end of the day when he gets tired of his house negro, he usually kicks out there with the rest of the masses and pick him a new nigger to do his biding
For the most part its very true, look at the numbers, the black community goes bankrupt every 24 hrs, the dollar does not circulate one time in the black community. How in the hell are we supporting one another. I put up a link not to long ago about this matter from Black Commentator. Most black with alot of money dont live in black communities. What does that mean, their tax base is in a non black community.
Just some questions

Why are wealthy Blacks called upon
to "give back to the community?" a) Many of them would argue that the community never gave them a damn thing and b) there is no community to serve.

Where are the origins of this type of obligation?

It seems to me that giving to the Black community is a behavior that should be done regardless of economic status. Moreover, I would prefer to live, work, and play in a community of committed Black folks than to be a part of one where a negro is expected to pull up in a caddy and drop off some ducats. We don't need checks or media coverage of negroes planting trees or cleaning up the park. We need something entirely more aggressive in scope and depth.
Agree. I also agree that classism is not a one-way phenomenon.



I dont remember poor blacks asking blacks with means to leave the community. It seems to me the more affluent you are the more resources you have at your disposal.If you are struggling to make ends meet and take care of your family , how can you force wealthy blacks to do anything. Seems to me they abandoned their people for greener pastures