Is anyone here a member?
Anyone rejected?
Is the organization's reputation of being elitist warrented?
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I'm not a member but I do know people who grew up in Jack and Jill... and hear a lot about the social circles that members travel in.... In this part of the country, the elitist reputation seems well earned....
When I was growing up [in the mid-70's] my mother explicitly rejected an invitation for my sister and I to join. She knew some of the people involved and did not want to associate because of their elitist conduct.
My sister was pissed because she would not be able to "come out" in their cotillion. While I didn't care one way or the other, in 1978, I was one of 3 non-J&J cotillion escorts.
My sister was pissed because she would not be able to "come out" in their cotillion. While I didn't care one way or the other, in 1978, I was one of 3 non-J&J cotillion escorts.
Compare the elitism of Jack & Jill with that of fraternities and sororities.
I was in Jack and Jill from the age of four until I graduated from high school when you naturally age out. I loved it, still have friends who now live around the country from it. Met people at college and in law school and in my ski club who were also in it.
I think is was positive for me, and the kids in it. My kids will be in it, when I have them and I have assisted others in joining it.
I am also a Delta, pledged in college at the same chapter my mother pledged at the same college.
Jack and Jill is a family organization for Black families.
As to the negative comments from contributors to this thread, all I can say is, quoting Jill Scott "Everything ain't for everybody".
I think is was positive for me, and the kids in it. My kids will be in it, when I have them and I have assisted others in joining it.
I am also a Delta, pledged in college at the same chapter my mother pledged at the same college.
Jack and Jill is a family organization for Black families.
As to the negative comments from contributors to this thread, all I can say is, quoting Jill Scott "Everything ain't for everybody".
Basically the decendents of the House negroes
Jack and Jill has little to do with elitism within African America. As I see it, it is about trying to maintain cultural integrity within largely white suburban communities. The families come from the ranks of the professional and college educated. To the degree that that is elitist, it is. But the purpsose is to instill pride and establish links among African American children where they might not always exist.
I grew up in a white suburb of Boston in the highly racist 1970's. Jack and Jill was a tool to keep me connected with other black kids. It was not the only vehicle for that purpose, and I certainly had contact with black kids throughout the spectrum of African America, but it was a great way to connect with other black kids - not only in my town - but from around the country.
I grew up in a white suburb of Boston in the highly racist 1970's. Jack and Jill was a tool to keep me connected with other black kids. It was not the only vehicle for that purpose, and I certainly had contact with black kids throughout the spectrum of African America, but it was a great way to connect with other black kids - not only in my town - but from around the country.
I grew up in a depressed all-black area, and I was never exposed to anything like Jack & Jill. I doubt very seriously that I would ever raise children in an all-white area. However, if I ever did, I think Jack and Jill would be a great opportunity for them. I think anything that instills self-awareness in black children who are otherwise at risk of being disconnected is something I would support. To the extent that they may be somewhat "elitist," who cares? Why would that constitute a deal-breaker?
quote:Originally posted by MBM:
Jack and Jill has little to do with elitism within African America. As I see it, it is about trying to maintain cultural integrity within largely white suburban communities. The families come from the ranks of the professional and college educated. To the degree that that is elitist, it is. But the purpsose is to instill pride and establish links among African American children where they might not always exist.
I didn't intend to imply anything overly nasty about Jack & Jill.
But, coming from the black working class like I do (and I'm also first generation college educated), dealing with 2nd and 3rd generation middle class black folk can be stressful - you are sometimes put off by a certain elitist strain - or at least tendency to take far more for granted than I do...
why would you live in an all white area, anyway, why not expose your children to all types of black kids , advantaged and disadvantaged. if you just put a bunch of yuppie kids together how does that help the community?
quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:quote:Originally posted by MBM:
Jack and Jill has little to do with elitism within African America. As I see it, it is about trying to maintain cultural integrity within largely white suburban communities. The families come from the ranks of the professional and college educated. To the degree that that is elitist, it is. But the purpsose is to instill pride and establish links among African American children where they might not always exist.
I didn't intend to imply anything overly nasty about Jack & Jill.
But, coming from the black working class like I do (and I'm also first generation college educated), dealing with 2nd and 3rd generation middle class black folk can be stressful - you are sometimes put off by a certain elitist strain - or at least tendency to take far more for granted than I do...
My wife has some older family friends here in Houston that fit all the stereotypes. They insists on the use of their titles in informal conversations, they love dropping names, pimping their Greek organizations, etc. To date, I find it all quite superficial. Unfortunately, my wife has already let me know that if we have kids, she wants them in these circles. I will just have to train my kids to be subversives. 
quote:Originally posted by ZAKAR:
why would you live in an all white area, anyway
Perhaps thats where your career takes you. I have worked at colleges in upstate New York, central Pennsylvania, and south central Michigan. That is the nature of those communities.
Honestly I have never head of Jack and Jill of America until I saw this thread. I am going to look it up on the internet. The comments have definitely been interesting to read.
I agree with the points that everybody has made. I grew up in the same way HonestBrother did working class family in a African American neighborhood and also first generation college educated.
Reminds me of a conversation I had with a female I was working with years ago. She went to a different high school then I did in Cincinnati. She said she loved the high school she gradauted from and was so glad that she did not go to a particular high school that she mentioned. She said everybody that went there were all hood rats she did not realize that she was talking about the high school that I graduated from! I quickly told her that I am not a hood rat and I am very educated!
I really dislike people who think that they are better than you because of certain circumstances. I am not saying that Jack and Jill of America is like that. I just think we as people should really be aware about trying not to put labels on each other.
I agree with the points that everybody has made. I grew up in the same way HonestBrother did working class family in a African American neighborhood and also first generation college educated.
Reminds me of a conversation I had with a female I was working with years ago. She went to a different high school then I did in Cincinnati. She said she loved the high school she gradauted from and was so glad that she did not go to a particular high school that she mentioned. She said everybody that went there were all hood rats she did not realize that she was talking about the high school that I graduated from! I quickly told her that I am not a hood rat and I am very educated!
I really dislike people who think that they are better than you because of certain circumstances. I am not saying that Jack and Jill of America is like that. I just think we as people should really be aware about trying not to put labels on each other.
quote:Originally posted by TruEssence:
I just think we as people should really be aware about trying not to put labels on each other.
maybe apart of really caring about black people and the black community and living and spending your money withing those communities , just imagine if these so called elites used that capital to enhance our communities instead of trying to live with the Joneses, seems to me its all about the decisions people make. If you purposely decide to live in an area where people dont look like you, how do you tell your people you are down with them?
quote:Originally posted by TruEssence:
Honestly I have never head of Jack and Jill of America until I saw this thread.
At least I'm not the only one here who hasn't got a clue what this thread is all about.
Could somebody please explain what Jack and Jill of America is?
quote:Originally posted by ZAKAR:
If you purposely decide to live in an area where people dont look like you, how do you tell your people you are down with them?
You make the racist and perhaps self hateful presumption that all of "your people" live in the hood. Brother, they don't. You infer that to be 'truly black' you've got to be a certain type of person and live in a certain place. That seems to be a sort of 'ethnic elitism' that is as divisive as any other kind.
quote:Originally posted by MBM:quote:Originally posted by ZAKAR:
If you purposely decide to live in an area where people dont look like you, how do you tell your people you are down with them?
You make the racist and perhaps self hateful presumption that all of "your people" live in the hood. Brother, they don't. You infer that to be 'truly black' you've got to be a certain type of person and live in a certain place. That seems to be a sort of 'ethnic elitism' that is as divisive as any other kind.
quote:Originally posted by ricardomath:quote:Originally posted by TruEssence:
Honestly I have never head of Jack and Jill of America until I saw this thread.
At least I'm not the only one here who hasn't got a clue what this thread is all about.
Could somebody please explain what Jack and Jill of America is?
TruEssence and ricardomath, go to
http://www.jack-and-jill.org/
I love black people to death, Who said every black person is from the hood. Who said every black community is a Hood? there are some very nice viable black communities all over this country filled with black working,middle and upperclass blacks who purposely decided to live and spend their capital with their people
quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:quote:Originally posted by MBM:quote:Originally posted by ZAKAR:
If you purposely decide to live in an area where people dont look like you, how do you tell your people you are down with them?
You make the racist and perhaps self hateful presumption that all of "your people" live in the hood. Brother, they don't. You infer that to be 'truly black' you've got to be a certain type of person and live in a certain place. That seems to be a sort of 'ethnic elitism' that is as divisive as any other kind.
its very disengenious to put words in peoples mouth, but its cool. But i tell you what, I show and prove my love for my people everyday.
Zakar, it is the very nature of a capitalist society that money flows upwards. No matter where money is spent, 80% of it eventually comes to rest with the top 20% of the economic pyramid. There are some Black folks in that 20%, but very few.
Give me an example, please, of how a Black person can only spend their money with their people.
Give me an example, please, of how a Black person can only spend their money with their people.
Come on with that setup shyt, My point is if you live within a community buy property in that community you contribute to the viability of that community. If you live outside that community your taxes go somewhere else Ie education, power.Our people as of now dont provide all the services we as a people need, but they do suppy alot. But I never said spend all, but i was implying spending every dime possible with your own people would not only be benificial to you as an individual but it contributes to the viability of the community
quote:Originally posted by ZAKAR:
why would you live in an all white area, anyway, if you just put a bunch of yuppie kids together how does that help the community?
I have not discounted J&J as an activity for my daughter, in that as some have indicated, it is a way to connect with other Black kids.
quote:why would you live in an all white area, anyway
In Tucson, Arizona, one has little choice. Blacks make up about 3% of the population. And, while Hispanics make up about 30%, living with them is no different than living with white folk; only the median income is significantly lower.
quote:why not expose your children to all types of black kids , advantaged and disadvantaged.
We do whenever possible, but I would be happy exposing my daughter to ANY group of Black kids, regardless of socio-economic status.
quote:if you just put a bunch of yuppie kids together how does that help the community
In the same way, this community helps the community. It gives us an opportunity to "not be alone" and to "see others, like us, that are succeeding.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/race/interviews/davis.html
why would you chose to live in a place with such demographics?
why would you chose to live in a place with such demographics?
The vast majority of people choose where they live based on the cost of living and employment opportunities (or the lack there of).
so it is a choice people intentially make.No one forced them to move into all white areas. People act as if most people live in white communities because of jobs thats a lie. Most people live in white communities because they think they can get a better value for their houses. Often they will have to drive by a black community to get to these outer suburbs. Most black people dont live in Utah!!
quote:Originally posted by ZAKAR:
so it is a choice people intentially make.No one forced them to move into all white areas.
Of course it is. I never said anything implying the contrary.
quote:People act as if most people live in white communities because of jobs thats a lie. Most people live in white communities because they think they can get a better value for their houses.
No, people consistantly buy as much home as they think they can afford. I don't think this is a very smart practice, but it's what people do. I don't believe that Black folks drive passed Black communities out of avoidence (if they do at all). There just trying to get as much "bang for their buck", just like everone else.
quote:Most black people dont live in Utah!!
Relevence?
Again, people choose to live where there is an appreciable difference between their ability to generate revenue (employment) and the cost of living, assuming that they have any choices at all.
quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:quote:Originally posted by ricardomath:quote:Originally posted by TruEssence:
Honestly I have never head of Jack and Jill of America until I saw this thread.
At least I'm not the only one here who hasn't got a clue what this thread is all about.
Could somebody please explain what Jack and Jill of America is?
TruEssence and ricardomath, go to
http://www.jack-and-jill.org/
MTC
I'm glad to see this discussed here by those who have participated in J&J. I am from the school of thought that when segregation was no longer part of our society we should have stayed in OUR communities and improved them. But, there was the Black-flight to the white suburbans by those who had "made it." Thus, I can see the importance of J&J.
Those of us who continue to live in the Black communities are not ask to join J&J. From my experience with J&J, those who are members are children of lawyers, local celebrities, ex-football players, politicans, those who hold PHDs and anyone they deem worthy and living in the suburbans. And those same Black folks who live in a predominately white suburbs, come into the Black community on Saturdays to get their hair done and on Sundays to go church.
I'm not against anything that would enhance a child's self-awareness. That being said, I do get ruffled feathers when these same J&J children evolve into adults who feel they are the elitist or the talented-tenth of the African Americans because of thier affiliations. I have members in my own family who belong to J&J and my experience with them is exclusion not inclusion. Thus creating a "I'm better than you because...." or you are field negro and I'm house negro.
I'm glad to see this discussed here by those who have participated in J&J. I am from the school of thought that when segregation was no longer part of our society we should have stayed in OUR communities and improved them. But, there was the Black-flight to the white suburbans by those who had "made it." Thus, I can see the importance of J&J.
Those of us who continue to live in the Black communities are not ask to join J&J. From my experience with J&J, those who are members are children of lawyers, local celebrities, ex-football players, politicans, those who hold PHDs and anyone they deem worthy and living in the suburbans. And those same Black folks who live in a predominately white suburbs, come into the Black community on Saturdays to get their hair done and on Sundays to go church.
I'm not against anything that would enhance a child's self-awareness. That being said, I do get ruffled feathers when these same J&J children evolve into adults who feel they are the elitist or the talented-tenth of the African Americans because of thier affiliations. I have members in my own family who belong to J&J and my experience with them is exclusion not inclusion. Thus creating a "I'm better than you because...." or you are field negro and I'm house negro.
quote:Originally posted by Diamond:
MTC
I'm glad to see this discussed here by those who have participated in J&J. I am from the school of thought that when segregation was no longer part of our society we should have stayed in OUR communities and improved them. But, there was the Black-flight to the white suburbans by those who had "made it." Thus, I can see the importance of J&J.
Those of us who continue to live in the Black communities are not ask to join J&J. From my experience with J&J, those who are members are children of lawyers, local celebrities, ex-football players, politicans, those who hold PHDs and anyone they deem worthy and living in the suburbans. And those same Black folks who live in a predominately white suburbs, come into the Black community on Saturdays to get their hair done and on Sundays to go church.
I'm not against anything that would enhance a child's self-awareness. That being said, I do get ruffled feathers when these same J&J children evolve into adults who feel they are the elitist or the talented-tenth of the African Americans because of thier affiliations. I have members in my own family who belong to J&J and my experience with them is exclusion not inclusion. Thus creating a "I'm better than you because...." or you are field negro and I'm house negro.
This is very similar to my experience with J&J and the black middle class generally. Which is not to question someone's racial authenticity. But black folks can be bigger goddamned snobs than whites... and over some pretty petty stuff (fraternities, sororities, clubs, etc.)
so how does taking your economic tax base to already wealthy white suburbs help the masses of black people? Whats the point?
I am troubled to hear members of this site decry the vaulue of a Black organization like Jack and Jill which is positive. 
MBM I am glad that I am not the only former J&J member on this site brave enough to say it, and I am glad you too saw the benefits of being in that organization.
Vox, thanks for your openmindedness.
As for J&J, this organization allowed me to see a very different view of Black people as opposed to tv stero-types from shows like "Good Times" or "Sanford and Son". I always wondered why there were no tv shows about famlies like mine on tv in the 70's and why did every Black show have to be a sitcom? Then we got the The Cosby Show. Much better, but still a sitcom. Why?
I find it odd that people think that being Black means being working class. Thurgood Marshall should not have gone to the Supreme Court or even Howard's Law School if that was the case. We would not have had the Black psychologist who did the experiments for Brown vs. Board of Education. Senator Obama should not be in office right now, he too is a law school graduate, Harvard. We should have no Black doctors, engineers [electrical, civil or architectural], MBA, or anyone at all that goes beyond college right. Shonda Rhimes would not have had the oportunity to write and produce Grey's Anatomy, where we get to see not one but three Black surgeons, not just doctors but surgeons one of whom is the Chief of Surgery, on Sunday, and they are not the tokens, the Asian doctor is. What would we get then, only college drop-out professional athelets? Would we as a people be stuck in lower management forever or should we all just say hey being a check out clerk at any store is good enough for my brain, since I want to be considered Black by my people. True, it is difficult to purchase a house on the salary but it is an honest job and no one would be able to say I was not some kind of elite Black cause I went to graduate school. What example does that set for our children?
If we keep decrying education and organizations that make kids compete with thier minds and not thier bodies like it is a bad thing we will end up not having a Black middle and upper class at all. Without a Black middle and upper class we will not have advocates for our community's needs in the halls of power, does anybody hear Bush v. Gore, remember we just needed one Senator and Carol Mosely Braun, another attorney, was no longer in Office, and Obama was not there yet.... hummmm what would have happened, .......be they congress, courtrooms, planning boards or hospitals. We will have to depend on the good graces of others. By the way, how far have the good graces of others gotten us as a people since the Civil War? Just Asking. I am the first attorney in my family, but out of my J&J class of 1984 there are dozens from across the country, directly from my local chapter we have 5 attorneys and 3 doctors. I think that is a good thing.
Jack and Jill is a support group for Black families who want more for thier kids than a spot on the corner. The live in Cities, Suburbs and Rural areas. Why is living in the hood what makes you Black? By the way, who made that decision? Just asking.
MBM I am glad that I am not the only former J&J member on this site brave enough to say it, and I am glad you too saw the benefits of being in that organization.
Vox, thanks for your openmindedness.
As for J&J, this organization allowed me to see a very different view of Black people as opposed to tv stero-types from shows like "Good Times" or "Sanford and Son". I always wondered why there were no tv shows about famlies like mine on tv in the 70's and why did every Black show have to be a sitcom? Then we got the The Cosby Show. Much better, but still a sitcom. Why?
I find it odd that people think that being Black means being working class. Thurgood Marshall should not have gone to the Supreme Court or even Howard's Law School if that was the case. We would not have had the Black psychologist who did the experiments for Brown vs. Board of Education. Senator Obama should not be in office right now, he too is a law school graduate, Harvard. We should have no Black doctors, engineers [electrical, civil or architectural], MBA, or anyone at all that goes beyond college right. Shonda Rhimes would not have had the oportunity to write and produce Grey's Anatomy, where we get to see not one but three Black surgeons, not just doctors but surgeons one of whom is the Chief of Surgery, on Sunday, and they are not the tokens, the Asian doctor is. What would we get then, only college drop-out professional athelets? Would we as a people be stuck in lower management forever or should we all just say hey being a check out clerk at any store is good enough for my brain, since I want to be considered Black by my people. True, it is difficult to purchase a house on the salary but it is an honest job and no one would be able to say I was not some kind of elite Black cause I went to graduate school. What example does that set for our children?
If we keep decrying education and organizations that make kids compete with thier minds and not thier bodies like it is a bad thing we will end up not having a Black middle and upper class at all. Without a Black middle and upper class we will not have advocates for our community's needs in the halls of power, does anybody hear Bush v. Gore, remember we just needed one Senator and Carol Mosely Braun, another attorney, was no longer in Office, and Obama was not there yet.... hummmm what would have happened, .......be they congress, courtrooms, planning boards or hospitals. We will have to depend on the good graces of others. By the way, how far have the good graces of others gotten us as a people since the Civil War? Just Asking. I am the first attorney in my family, but out of my J&J class of 1984 there are dozens from across the country, directly from my local chapter we have 5 attorneys and 3 doctors. I think that is a good thing.
Jack and Jill is a support group for Black families who want more for thier kids than a spot on the corner. The live in Cities, Suburbs and Rural areas. Why is living in the hood what makes you Black? By the way, who made that decision? Just asking.
they stuff you saying is Stero typical itself. Saying that all people who live in a working class community is on a street corner. The problem with and elitist group like Jack & Jill(why the name?) It doesnt accept the average black person. Most black people are not millionairs, or even make over 50,0000. The overwhelming amount of black people are poor and working class, why not have something thats inclusive istead of some country club shyt
quote:Originally posted by kresge:quote:Originally posted by ZAKAR:
why would you live in an all white area, anyway
Perhaps thats where your career takes you. I have worked at colleges in upstate New York, central Pennsylvania, and south central Michigan. That is the nature of those communities.
Our where your parents career takes you, as an Army brat (term for army kids) there are no all black neighborhoods on military installations where we all live and hang out.
Zakar, with all due respect, I'm finding you pretty generalizing in your view regarding Black folk, but in a limiting way.
Real and committed Black folk cover the gamut of the social classes. Being poor or working class does not give someone credibility, nor does being well off equate to the Black being elitist, stuffy or stuck-up.
Real and committed Black folk cover the gamut of the social classes. Being poor or working class does not give someone credibility, nor does being well off equate to the Black being elitist, stuffy or stuck-up.
where did i say it did?? I said you have the means and take those means away from your people is that helpful?
Okay, this is waaayyyyy off topic; but, ...
ZAKAR, What do you do for a living, where do you live?
ZAKAR, What do you do for a living, where do you live?
what do you do for a living? I live in Virginia at the moment
I'm sure about J&J in particular.
I would have to see a few meetings and meet a few more people to judge whether it's elitist or not.
I wouldn't call it elitist just because there isn't a plethora of low-income folks in the org, though. Especially when looking at why the group was formed, I don't think it should be expected to accept everyone.
I'd love to have my children in an organization like Jack and Jill if we were living the upper-class life.
Not to teach them the Black experience or how to relate to Blacks.
That'd be like a WASP taking his kids to a country club to learn Whiteness.
You're not going to learn about a huge scope of people by being in a club where everyone has a white-collar parent and is the only Black kid on the school. It's not going to help the child better relate to someone with a different life.
But the club is good for giving the kids people like them who they could relate in a world where many White people associate Blacks with ghettos and many Blacks associate privileged Blacks as not really Black.
I think that with an organization like Jack and Jill the kids will learn to scoff when Whites say, "You're not like other Black people," rather than take it as a compliment. And learn to take, "only White people talk like that," as ignorance.
It's a group where the children fit.
And there is a chance for networking.
I would have to see a few meetings and meet a few more people to judge whether it's elitist or not.
I wouldn't call it elitist just because there isn't a plethora of low-income folks in the org, though. Especially when looking at why the group was formed, I don't think it should be expected to accept everyone.
I'd love to have my children in an organization like Jack and Jill if we were living the upper-class life.
Not to teach them the Black experience or how to relate to Blacks.
That'd be like a WASP taking his kids to a country club to learn Whiteness.
You're not going to learn about a huge scope of people by being in a club where everyone has a white-collar parent and is the only Black kid on the school. It's not going to help the child better relate to someone with a different life.
But the club is good for giving the kids people like them who they could relate in a world where many White people associate Blacks with ghettos and many Blacks associate privileged Blacks as not really Black.
I think that with an organization like Jack and Jill the kids will learn to scoff when Whites say, "You're not like other Black people," rather than take it as a compliment. And learn to take, "only White people talk like that," as ignorance.
It's a group where the children fit.
And there is a chance for networking.
quote:Originally posted by Nikcara:
I am troubled to hear members of this site decry the vaulue of a Black organization like Jack and Jill which is positive.
Nikcara, I'm not condemning J&J. And I believe such organizations can be positive and be good for its participants. But like any organization it has its problems... one of them being its relation to lower income blacks.
Neither am I saying authentic blackness means working class. I'm just saying that as someone who comes from the working class I find some middle class blacks to be snobbish and petty -especially when it comes to memberships in exclusive organizations...
so how does that prepare them to relate to the masses of black people who dont have the white collar upbringing? Does it matter . Why does black poor and working class people always associated with Ghetto. People sound more and more like Bill Cosby everyday, especially those who think they have made it to the country club lifestyle. Why not bring poor and working class children into this evironment?
Once again,
I feel I must comment.....
I know many in J&J.....
Though the aspirations that are spoken of are noble.......
Class is definitely a deciding factor....
in many cases....... one is born into the organization or related to someone in the organization somehow......
Peace,
Virtue
I feel I must comment.....
I know many in J&J.....
Though the aspirations that are spoken of are noble.......
Class is definitely a deciding factor....
in many cases....... one is born into the organization or related to someone in the organization somehow......
Peace,
Virtue
Do they still have the paperbag test?
quote:Originally posted by tmonster:
Do they still have the paperbag test?
You know I was trying not to mention that.....
it was a reality for me personally in Georgia...
though not with J&J.....
the paperbag test....... was applied here in Georgia by many members of the organization.... tthough not all..... but enough that it was a common practice.....
I do not think skin color is an issue any more.... at least not to the extent it used to be.... I think income and status was and still is a significant factor....
which is why.... it's good to instill principles of pride.... etc....
but.... those principles of pride in organizations such as these are reserved to be taught for the selected few who already had enough pride in themselves (and the right connections with others) to work towards the height of their industry or society.....
It's funny how we don't really discuss painful things like this in our community....
things like this have worked to double destroy the self esteem of many.......
Peace,
Virtue
quote:Originally posted by virtue:quote:Originally posted by tmonster:
Do they still have the paperbag test?
You know I was trying not to mention that.....
it was a reality for me personally in Georgia...
though not with J&J.....
the paperbag test....... was applied here in Georgia by many members of the organization.... tthough not all..... but enough that it was a common practice.....
It's funny how we don't really discuss painful things like this in our community....
things like this have worked to double destroy the self esteem of many.......
Peace,
Virtue
Virtue,
You are so right, we don't discuss the hurtful things we have done to ourselves. We are quick to point out what the white man has done to us but we very seldom discuss what we do to ourselves. I am ashamed to say that I have heard of the paper bag test. Not only with the J&J but with other black organizations. For example my church, I heard it said by someone I respect that a presbyterian is a baptist that has made it. In addition, my presbyterian church has a history of only light-skin folks were excepted or invited to be members in the early 1900's.
Fasinating article on the subject below:
By BILL MAXWELL, Times Staff Writer
© St. Petersburg Times
published August 31, 2003
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Each year, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission receives about 85,000 discrimination cases, a phenomenon to be expected in a society that touts itself as a "melting pot."
Many of these cases involve the complaints of minority groups against majority groups. We rarely expect a member of a minority group to discriminate against someone else in the same group. But that is exactly what happens among African-Americans.
More than any other minority group in the United States, blacks discriminate against one another. The discrimination, called "colorism," is based on skin tone: whether a person is dark-skinned or light-skinned or in the broad middle somewhere.
Most African-Americans refuse to discuss this self-destructive problem even in private. According to the EEOC, though, the number of such cases are steadily increasing, jumping from 413 in fiscal year 1994 to 1,382 in 2002, a figure that represents about 3 percent of all cases the agency receives yearly.
The most recent case making news in the black press involves two employees of an Applebee's restaurant in Jonesboro, Ga., near Atlanta. There, Dwight Burch, a dark-skinned waiter, who has left the restaurant, filed a lawsuit against Applebee's and his light-skinned African-American manager.
In the suit, Burch alleged that during his three-month stint, the manager repeatedly referred to him as a "black monkey" and a "tar baby." The manager also told Burch to bleach his skin, and Burch was fired after he refused to do so, the suit states.
Colorism has a long and ugly history among American blacks, dating back to slavery, when light-skinned blacks were automatically given preferential treatment by plantation owners and their henchmen.
Colorism's history is fascinating: Fair-skinned slaves automatically enjoyed plum jobs in the master's house, if they had to work at all. Many traveled throughout the nation and abroad with their masters and their families. They were exposed to the finer things, and many became educated as a result. Their darker-tone peers toiled in the fields. They were the ones who were beaten, burned and hanged, the ones permanently condemned to be the lowest of the low in U.S. society. For them, even learning - reading, 'riting, 'rithmetic - was illegal.
When slavery ended, light-skinned blacks established social organizations that barred darker ex-slaves. Elite blacks of the early 20th century were fair-skinned almost to the person. Even today, most blacks in high positions have fair skin tones, and most blacks who do menial jobs or are in prison are dark. Believe it or not, popular black magazines, such as Ebony as Essence, prefer light-skinned models in their beauty product ads.
For many years, entrance to special social events operated on the "brown paper bag" principle, which I will explain. Until quite recently, black fraternities and sororities, for example, recruited according to skin tone. Spike Lee's film School Daze satirizes the problem, and Alice Walker's novel The Color Purple makes it a biting subtext.
In his 1996 book The Future of the Race, Henry Louis Gates Jr., chairman of the Afro-American studies department at Harvard, described his encounter with the brown paper bag when he came to Yale in the late 1960s, when skin-tone bias was brazenly practiced: "Some of the brothers who came from New Orleans held a "bag party.' As a classmate explained it to me, a bag party was a New Orleans custom wherein a brown paper bag was stuck on the door.
"Anyone darker than the bag was denied entrance. That was one cultural legacy that would be put to rest in a hurry - we all made sure of that. But in a manner of speaking, it was replaced by an opposite test whereby those who were deemed "not black enough' ideologically were to be shunned. I was not sure this was an improvement."
Gates was overly optimistic. The brown paper bag test remains in black culture in various incarnations, as the Applebee's case and the EEOC's statistics confirm. We separate ourselves by skin tone almost as much as we ever did. If, say, you check out the "desired" female beauties in rap videos, you will find redbones galore.
Back to the Applebee's case. A spokesman for the chain issued this statement: "No one should have to put up with mean and humiliating comments about the color of their skin on the job. . . . It makes no difference that these comments are made by someone of your own race. Actually, that makes it even worse." Although the chain denied the allegations, it paid Burch $40,000 to settle the suit.
Now for the irony of ironies: Applebee's has added a protection, along with cultural sensitivity training, against skin-tone discrimination to its antidiscrimination policies.
In other words, the company must protect African-Americans from other African-Americans.
Discrimination from whites and other groups remains a big problem for blacks. But colorism is just as serious, if not more so. Colorism saps our strength from the inside. It weakens our power and ability to fight the outside forces that keep us marginalized in larger society.
quote:Originally posted by Diamond:
..... must protect African-Americans from other African-Americans.
Discrimination from whites and other groups remains a big problem for blacks. But colorism is just as serious, if not more so. Colorism saps our strength from the inside. It weakens our power and ability to fight the outside forces that keep us marginalized in larger society.
Very much so.....
I was a member of the Long Island chapter in late 70's and early 80's. I wanted no part of it then, I find nothing about Jack and Jill useful today
quote:Originally posted by Shango67:
I was a member of the Long Island chapter in late 70's and early 80's. I wanted no part of it then, I find nothing about Jack and Jill useful today
Why?
quote:Originally posted by tmonster:quote:Originally posted by Shango67:
I was a member of the Long Island chapter in late 70's and early 80's. I wanted no part of it then, I find nothing about Jack and Jill useful today
Why?
There is a color caste system and it seemed as if light skinned Africans were prefered over dark.
There was always talk about money and who has the most of it.
Titles were very important. "That is Dr. Blah Blah Blah daughter."
Kids were made to feel like shit if they did not go to a Ivy League school or a fancy private high school.
And EVERYTHING looked like white country club behavior. What the fuck do Black folks look like hosting a cotillion?
At Jack and Jill you were trained to be more palatable to wbite people.
quote:Originally posted by Shango67:
What the fuck do Black folks look like hosting a cotillion?
I'd never heard of this organization until reading the book "Our Kind of People." Very interesting.
quote:Originally posted by Frenchy:quote:Originally posted by Shango67:
What the fuck do Black folks look like hosting a cotillion?
I'd never heard of this organization until reading the book "Our Kind of People." Very interesting.
It was truly a sad sight to see. To this day, any discussions about Jack and Jill in my family usually ends up in fist to cuffs. My cousins loved it - of course they all act like Carlton Banks from The Fresh Prince of Bell Air. My mother stopped forcing me to go to Jack and Jill after I called her a white negro for sending me. I caught a real azz whippin' that day, but I won the battle. I am not mad at her... she was raised as a Catholic who went to Latin mass, listened to recordings of the "Sound of Music," and worshiped the Queen of England (as do many people from the Caribbean). She was an English teacher and whenever I said, "Hey ma! Where's my bike at? She responded, "At the end of that preposition.
quote:she was raised as a Catholic who went to Latin mass, listened to recordings of the "Sound of Music," and worshiped the Queen of England (as do many people from the Caribbean).
Sounds like my mom and dad (Jamaican). My mother is quite the Anglophile, with a faux British accent to match sometimes.
quote:Originally posted by Frenchy:quote:she was raised as a Catholic who went to Latin mass, listened to recordings of the "Sound of Music," and worshiped the Queen of England (as do many people from the Caribbean).
Sounds like my mom and dad (Jamaican). My mother is quite the Anglophile, with a faux British accent to match sometimes.
YARDIE... what's up. You know EXACTLY what I am talking about.
LOL! I sure do.quote:Originally posted by Shango67:quote:Originally posted by Frenchy:quote:Originally posted by Shango67:
What the fuck do Black folks look like hosting a cotillion?
I'd never heard of this organization until reading the book "Our Kind of People." Very interesting.
It was truly a sad sight to see. To this day, any discussions about Jack and Jill in my family usually ends up in fist to cuffs. My cousins loved it - of course they all act like Carlton Banks from The Fresh Prince of Bell Air. My mother stopped forcing me to go to Jack and Jill after I called her a white negro for sending me. I caught a real azz whippin' that day, but I won the battle. I am not mad at her... she was raised as a Catholic who went to Latin mass, listened to recordings of the "Sound of Music," and worshiped the Queen of England (as do many people from the Caribbean). She was an English teacher and whenever I said, "Hey ma! Where's my bike at? She responded, "At the end of that preposition.
Black identity in the west is confounding
Off topic, but what is blackness to yall?
quote:Originally posted by Shango67:
There is a color caste system and it seemed as if light skinned Africans were prefered over dark.
yes..... though I was not in J&J.... but this was my experience with members as a young girl.....
however, as an adult..... I do not think colorism plays as much a part as it used to..... at least not in DC/MD..... I think money and status trumps this now......
quote:There was always talk about money and who has the most of it.
Titles were very important. "That is Dr. Blah Blah Blah daughter."
Kids were made to feel like shit if they did not go to a Ivy League school or a fancy private high school.
Yes...... I experienced this too......
As in most organizations.....
there is what is preached....
and then there is what's practiced......
Peace,
Virtue
I think what many of you are talking about are things that occur with people - as opposed to foundations of an organization. We live in a country where, for better or worse, people size each other up. In an organization of achieving families, insecurity will casuse some to "primp and preen" inappropriately. I'm not sure it's logical to brand the whole organization because of it.
For the record, I experienced/saw none of those things.
For the record, I experienced/saw none of those things.
quote:Originally posted by MBM:
I think what many of you are talking about are things that occur with people - as opposed to foundations of an organization.
MBM.... if it happens often, in different cities..... and many share the same experiences..... can you not suspect a systemic mindset?
Yes..... but there are two things to be said here.....quote:We live in a country where, for better or worse, people size each other up. In an organization of achieving families, insecurity will casuse some to "primp and preen" inappropriately. I'm not sure it's logical to brand the whole organization because of it.
this organization is not in a vacuum..... and it was created among a people that hold a certain viewpoint....... so this is not some isolated thing here......
and maybe your benefits from the organization will not allow you to see otherwise.....
sorry.... frustration getting in the way.....
quote:For the record, I experienced/saw none of those things.
I know nothing of your economic or status background....
yet I know that J&J doesn't have a history of letting in the Janitor's son....
but I've seen your picture....
if that's you....
you are very light-skinned.....
and therefore would never be at the receiving end of such a cruel practice... so how could you experience it.....?
Peace,
Virtue
quote:Originally posted by virtue:
MBM.... if it happens often, in different cities..... and many share the same experiences..... can you not suspect a systemic mindset?
Perhaps, but I can supply an equal or greater number of people who have had only positive, enriching experiences.
quote:
this organization is not in a vacuum..... and it was created among a people that hold a certain viewpoint.......
Viewpoint? Other than wanting to provide culturally enriching environments and experiences for black children - what viewpoint are you referring to?
quote:and maybe your benefits from the organization will not allow you to see otherwise.....
Perhaps, but as you know every coin has two sides.
quote:yet I know that J&J doesn't have a history of letting in the Janitor's son....
But do you look at all black folks with college experience that way? Only 26% of Americans graduate from college. The number must be even smaller for African Americans. Does every occasion when subsets of black folks get together - by definition - have to be fundamentally elitist in purpose and objective?
quote:you are very light-skinned.....
yeah - I'm light skinded! What about it?
Are we back in style again yet? 
quote:and therefore would never be at the receiving end of such a cruel practice... so how could you experience it.....?
My father and grandfather are/were a rich, deep brown. I grew up being very sensitive to color (as well as other) distinctions that black folks make with each other. I don't have to be blue to see and understand color consciousness just like I don't have to be a woman to appreciate and understand sexism.
I have quite a bit of experience with this group, yet I have no reason to support them if it were not warranted. Although for some, it may be difficult to (want) to believe, in my experience, it's just never been an issue.
BTW - "colorism" cuts both ways too!
This is a very interesting discussion. I have no experience with Jack & Jill, so I'm not going to comment... except...
quote:Originally posted by MBM:
yeah - I'm light skinded! What about it?
quote:Originally posted by MBM:quote:Originally posted by virtue:
MBM.... if it happens often, in different [cities..... and many share the same experiences..... can you not suspect a systemic mindset?
Perhaps, but I can supply an equal or greater number of people who have had only positive, enriching experiences.
.....and? has no relevance on the negative experiences of others.... and the pain that's caused..... are you suggesting that because you and other's have had positive experiences that this discounts others' negative experiences?
quote:quote:
this organization is not in a vacuum..... and it was created among a people that hold a certain viewpoint.......
Viewpoint? Other than wanting to provide culturally enriching environments and experiences for black children - what viewpoint are you referring to?
providing a culturally enriching environment for specific black children....
quote:quote:and maybe your benefits from the organization will not allow you to see otherwise.....
Perhaps, but as you know every coin has two sides.
flipping coin...... my side of the coin is the one we are discussing now....
quote:quote:yet I know that J&J doesn't have a history of letting in the Janitor's son....
But do you look at all black folks with college experience that way? Only 26% of Americans graduate from college. The number must be even smaller for African Americans. Does every occasion when subsets of black folks get together - by definition - have to be fundamentally elitist in purpose and objective?
Yes... and No.....
Just because that subset gets together is not a crime...... but when that subset excludes based off of uncontrollable characteristics.... it should expect to be attacked..... and if it develops a reputation of looking down on those who do not have the opportunities..... then it should be expect to be looked at with a jaundiced eye.......
quote:quote:you are very light-skinned.....
yeah - I'm light skinded! What about it?
Yes, you are light-skinned.... whether you're back in style is irrelevant... is it not? I mean.... MBM... you have an entire organization of people that favor you... because of it.......
You can understand........quote:quote:and therefore would never be at the receiving end of such a cruel practice... so how could you experience it.....?
My father and grandfather are/were a rich, deep brown. I grew up being very sensitive to color (as well as other) distinctions that black folks make with each other. I don't have to be blue to see and understand color consciousness just like I don't have to be a woman to appreciate and understand sexism.
but not feel it....
you will always be an outside observer....
I believe you.....quote:I have quite a bit of experience with this group, yet I have no reason to support them if it were not warranted. Although for some, it may be difficult to (want) to believe, in my experience, it's just never been an issue.
quote:BTW - "colorism" cuts both ways too!
Yes...
But rarely....
Peace,
Virtue
All of the people against Jack and Jill, are you also against country clubs, too?
quote:Originally posted by ma'am:
All of the people against Jack and Jill, are you also against country clubs, too?
This is an interesting question and it got me to thinking that Jack and Jill is just like the divine 9... exclusive, status driven, and color struck.
And the color caste system among Africans in amerikkka have never benefited dark people. As a dark man, I may have had the opportunity to date sistas who prefer a 100 percent Nubian warrior that is coco rich, sun soaked, and smooth walking. But being dark doesn't get me access to employment or power.
quote:Originally posted by ma'am:
All of the people against Jack and Jill, are you also against country clubs, too?
I wouldn't say "against"... to each his own.. but I really feel uncomfortable in elitist settings... which is funny because I have a lot of what might be considered elitist credentials... but it just feels so fake and artificial... because people see a degree or a school and they assume they know something about you....
I avoid country clubs, fraternities, etc.
quote:Originally posted by virtue:
.....and? has no relevance on the negative experiences of others.... and the pain that's caused..... are you suggesting that because you and other's have had positive experiences that this discounts others' negative experiences?
You're the one speaking in broad generalities, talking about "systemic mindsets". I am merely providing evidence to the contrary.
quote:providing a culturally enriching environment for specific black children....
Yes. Those who are involved in the organization.
quote:flipping coin...... my side of the coin is the one we are discussing now....
Again, I'm not trying to deny you whatever experience you have. I am just offering evidence that suggests that your experiences are not universal ones.
quote:and if it develops a reputation of looking down on those who do not have the opportunities..... then it should be expect to be looked at with a jaundiced eye
The organization does not "look down" on anyone - particularly other black people. Certain people may, but "looking down" is certainly not a behavior that is exclusive to any group or class of people.
quote:I mean.... MBM... you have an entire organization of people that favor you... because of it.
First of all, that's just baloney! Please share whatever evidence you have to support your assertion. You know of someone who otherwise would have been a part of the organization except for their skin color?
Second, I was attempting humor. There are entire organizations that "favor" brown skin folks too. So what?
Third, as I mentioned, there is color discrimination within our community that cuts both ways. In what way can you attach that to this particular organizastion - particularly when I have first hand - multi-generational, multi-regional experience to the contrary.
Here is the picture of the current president. Does her hue look consistent with an organization that acts in the way that you describe about color?
Here's the VP.
Here's the Recording Secretary.
Here's the Corresponding Secretary.
Here's the Treasurer.
Here's the Editor.
And here's the National Program Director.
Here are the Regional Directors.
Here's the VP.
Here's the Recording Secretary.
Here's the Corresponding Secretary.
Here's the Treasurer.
Here's the Editor.
And here's the National Program Director.
Here are the Regional Directors.
You tryin to prove sometin brova?...
...seems like you've established that it's a sexist organization...
...seems like you've established that it's a sexist organization...
No Jacks.
Have you got the name wrong?
Is it Jills looking for Jacks?
umbra
Have you got the name wrong?
Is it Jills looking for Jacks?
umbra
quote:Originally posted by MBM:
You're the one speaking in broad generalities, talking about "systemic mindsets". I am merely providing evidence to the contrary.
If your position is "I have had positive experiences and many others that I know have....." then that is specific to you..... I am merely stating my specific experience contrary to yours......
and from that I am listening to others echo my response.... and the observation is something of a passive agressive position in your organiztion ........ one that affects others.... your positive experience only affects you and those who are admitted in your organization.....
quote:Those who are involved in the organization.
Yes.... MBM..... thanks for pointing this out..... you kept alluding to the organizations uplifing stance towards black children..... I wanted to point out that your use of its goals is a limited one.... not all black children are seen as worthy to receive its benefits..... just those who are "chosen" and according to you, I suppose, it has nothing to do with the class or status of their parents???
quote:Again, I'm not trying to deny you whatever experience you have. I am just offering evidence that suggests that your experiences are not universal ones.
.....The organization does not "look down" on anyone - particularly other black people. Certain people may, but "looking down" is certainly not a behavior that is exclusive to any group or class of people.
First of all, that's just baloney! Please share whatever evidence you have to support your assertion. You know of someone who otherwise would have been a part of the organization except for their skin color?
you can't deny them..... because they are real.... but they are not my experiences alone.....
but I had to say this earlier in this post:
V: I do not think colorism plays as much a part as it used to..... at least not in DC/MD..... I think money and status trumps this now......
For instance here is what Shango had to say:
Shango: There was always talk about money and who has the most of it.
Titles were very important. "That is Dr. Blah Blah Blah daughter."
Kids were made to feel like shit if they did not go to a Ivy League school or a fancy private high school.
Originally posted by Shango67:
There is a color caste system and it seemed as if light skinned Africans were prefered over dark.
quote:Second, I was attempting humor. There are entire organizations that "favor" brown skin folks too. So what?
I don't know entire organizations that "favor" brown skin folks.... but... we are not discussing those.... we are discussing this one that favors "light skinned" folks.... just because the opposite may exist does not discount the problems associated with the latter....
By the way ...... I almost laughed at your attempt at humor.... except this topic cuts too deep in many ways.... so your joke was in the distance next to my pain......
MBM.... you don't know this but in many ways this is being taken as EXTREMELY insensitive..... I almost don't know how to explain it.... and in many ways I feel like I'm talking to a white guy about racism and having him come back and say racism cuts both ways..... there's so many layers to me bringing this issue up that you may not understand I'm almost speechless.....quote:Third, as I mentioned, there is color discrimination within our community that cuts both ways.
yes, it cuts both ways...... in not the same way.... and not with the same depth, breadth, intensity or repercutions.....
quote:In what way can you attach that to this particular organizastion - particularly when I have first hand - multi-generational, multi-regional experience to the contrary.
Tired... talk to Shango.... just because he's the closest one here... or maybe talk to someone who feels this way around you.... they know you and probably can better convey the sentiment...
Me?
I'm drained....
topic too close for comfort...
Peace,
Virtue
It amazes me that you can post what you do about color despite the photos of the women who run the organization. If I knew nothing about them, I'd say this organization discriminates against light complexioned women.
quote:Originally posted by MBM:
It amazes me that you can post what you do about color despite the photos of the women who run the organization. If I knew nothing about them, I'd say this organization discriminates against light complexioned women.
grrrrrr......
sigh....
quote:but I had to say this earlier in this post:
V: I do not think colorism plays as much a part as it used to..... at least not in DC/MD..... I think money and status trumps this now......
quote:Originally posted by MBM:
Here is the picture of the current president. Does her hue look consistent with an organization that acts in the way that you describe about color?
Here's the VP.
Here's the Recording Secretary.
Here's the Corresponding Secretary.
Here's the Treasurer.
Here's the Editor.
And here's the National Program Director.
Here are the Regional Directors.
ewwwwwwwwww! The majority of these sistas be frying up their hair. They represent the awful legacy of Madame C. J. Walker.
quote:Originally posted by Shango67:quote:Originally posted by MBM:
Here is the picture of the current president. Does her hue look consistent with an organization that acts in the way that you describe about color?
Here's the VP.
Here's the Recording Secretary.
Here's the Corresponding Secretary.
Here's the Treasurer.
Here's the Editor.
And here's the National Program Director.
Here are the Regional Directors.
ewwwwwwwwww! The majority of these sistas be frying up their hair. They represent the awful legacy of Madame C. J. Walker.
Dont forget this is the front the company or organization is trying to sell, these can be token members...I'm just saying, its possible. I have friends of friends who are part of J&J and they disscuss color often
The sistas look like they get their hair "did" in Saddie Mae's beauty salon located in the nearest "Black" urban community.
The convo is getting superficial.
Why knock on these women because of their hair?
If they were all nappy, would the point be taken? Would it somehow prove that J&J is elitist?
It's not as if there is a lack of straightening in poorer neighhorhoods, btw.
Why knock on these women because of their hair?
If they were all nappy, would the point be taken? Would it somehow prove that J&J is elitist?
It's not as if there is a lack of straightening in poorer neighhorhoods, btw.
Like any other association, J&J is nothing more than a club; a "Black" American status "Symbol."
J&J is to Black America as
Porshe is to Sports Car.
It's that simple. Only problem is, there are too few Black Americans who can afford a porshe, while a porshe is probabaly a very good pre-requisite to J&J membership.
I personally have no interest in special interest groups, as the majority of which have no political clout because of their (inwardness), particularly special interest groups who do not do anything for HUMANITY at large.
Should I start a non-profit called "Lamar & Latoya" for BELOW average blacks, then parade my membership because I'm proad to live in an IMPOVERISHED neighborhood. Should I celebrate the fact that I live a life of "DEFICIT" not "EXCESS?" Oh, and not to mention, if I did these things, should I also keep my membership LIMITED so as not to begrudge the reputation of a Black American Organization befitting only those "UNFORTUNATES" who earn "NOT ENOUGH" to join?
Ok you get my point.
J&J is to Black America as
Porshe is to Sports Car.
It's that simple. Only problem is, there are too few Black Americans who can afford a porshe, while a porshe is probabaly a very good pre-requisite to J&J membership.
I personally have no interest in special interest groups, as the majority of which have no political clout because of their (inwardness), particularly special interest groups who do not do anything for HUMANITY at large.
Should I start a non-profit called "Lamar & Latoya" for BELOW average blacks, then parade my membership because I'm proad to live in an IMPOVERISHED neighborhood. Should I celebrate the fact that I live a life of "DEFICIT" not "EXCESS?" Oh, and not to mention, if I did these things, should I also keep my membership LIMITED so as not to begrudge the reputation of a Black American Organization befitting only those "UNFORTUNATES" who earn "NOT ENOUGH" to join?
Ok you get my point.
MBM, sorry I left you hanging, hearings left and right. Not that you will agree with what I am about to say but I agreed with all that you have offered since my last post on this issue.
It is unfortunate that those who have not been members feel the need to decry the merits.
You are all right, while they may be eligible all Black children will not be members of J&J, just like all Black children will not be members of the NAACP youth council, the Urban League teen group or the Crips and Bloods. It is called freedom of association.
You are right, J&J is a club that is expensive to join, you are right most Black folk cannot afford to join. If not being a member makes you feel so bad, make the money to join or ......Light a Candle and create your own organization, call it Hanzel and Gretal, or The Black Child Group, whatever you like. You will be free to have whatever criteria you want as the price of admission. There will always be haters, but the negative comments in this thread say one thing, Jealousy. Loud and Clear.
My J&J chapter had members of every hue in the Black Rainbow. The paper bag test is no longer a factor, and that is assuming it ever was. I have found that the people who talk about the paper bag test have never been present when it was used. I think that that suggestion is made by those who for whatever reason were not invited to join and want to bash the orgsanization. Oh and anybody can ask Vox, I could not pass the paper bag test if I wanted to try. Yes, I am darker than a paper bag and try to get darker during the Summer cause I love to lay out in the sun.
As African people we are tribal by nature, because of the Diaspora we are so mixed up that we now associate by common attributes. A common attribute for J&J is socializing Black kids who live in white areas with each other so that they have other kids to connect with who are going through what they are facing on a daily basis. Another common attribute in the case of J&J it is the focus on higher education and preparing kids to live and operate in this society. What I find funny, now that I have been thinking about J&J is that of all the girls that I knew in it, there were no teen pregnancies, guys did not father children in high school. The chapter I was in had 100% college attendance rate, with a graduation rate within 5 years, and 40% of us went on to graduate school right after college and another 30% went within 10 years of graduating from college. Those should be things people want for their children, but for some on this site, education =/= Black People.
J&J is about taking your kids to the next level, letting them know on in very real way on an intimate level that they are not alone, that being educated does not make you less Black and that living some subsistence lifestyle is not the only future for Black people, that you can and should enjoy all this world has to offer.
I wonder how many people saw the report that says that being Black and Smart means that you lose friends, it was on 20/20 and in the book Freakanomics. That book also extolled similarities of being a Beauty Pageant contestant and a Drug Dealer. That 20/20 episode had these Black kids getting called names because they were smart. Sad testament on the state of Black America where being mediocore seems to be all the rage and totally in fashion. I say be a trend setter and be smart.
So for all those that did not get in, like I said before, Everything ain't for everybody. J&J is exclusive for a reason. It is about values. If you don't share mine, no problem.
It is unfortunate that those who have not been members feel the need to decry the merits.
You are all right, while they may be eligible all Black children will not be members of J&J, just like all Black children will not be members of the NAACP youth council, the Urban League teen group or the Crips and Bloods. It is called freedom of association.
You are right, J&J is a club that is expensive to join, you are right most Black folk cannot afford to join. If not being a member makes you feel so bad, make the money to join or ......Light a Candle and create your own organization, call it Hanzel and Gretal, or The Black Child Group, whatever you like. You will be free to have whatever criteria you want as the price of admission. There will always be haters, but the negative comments in this thread say one thing, Jealousy. Loud and Clear.
My J&J chapter had members of every hue in the Black Rainbow. The paper bag test is no longer a factor, and that is assuming it ever was. I have found that the people who talk about the paper bag test have never been present when it was used. I think that that suggestion is made by those who for whatever reason were not invited to join and want to bash the orgsanization. Oh and anybody can ask Vox, I could not pass the paper bag test if I wanted to try. Yes, I am darker than a paper bag and try to get darker during the Summer cause I love to lay out in the sun.
As African people we are tribal by nature, because of the Diaspora we are so mixed up that we now associate by common attributes. A common attribute for J&J is socializing Black kids who live in white areas with each other so that they have other kids to connect with who are going through what they are facing on a daily basis. Another common attribute in the case of J&J it is the focus on higher education and preparing kids to live and operate in this society. What I find funny, now that I have been thinking about J&J is that of all the girls that I knew in it, there were no teen pregnancies, guys did not father children in high school. The chapter I was in had 100% college attendance rate, with a graduation rate within 5 years, and 40% of us went on to graduate school right after college and another 30% went within 10 years of graduating from college. Those should be things people want for their children, but for some on this site, education =/= Black People.
J&J is about taking your kids to the next level, letting them know on in very real way on an intimate level that they are not alone, that being educated does not make you less Black and that living some subsistence lifestyle is not the only future for Black people, that you can and should enjoy all this world has to offer.
I wonder how many people saw the report that says that being Black and Smart means that you lose friends, it was on 20/20 and in the book Freakanomics. That book also extolled similarities of being a Beauty Pageant contestant and a Drug Dealer. That 20/20 episode had these Black kids getting called names because they were smart. Sad testament on the state of Black America where being mediocore seems to be all the rage and totally in fashion. I say be a trend setter and be smart.
So for all those that did not get in, like I said before, Everything ain't for everybody. J&J is exclusive for a reason. It is about values. If you don't share mine, no problem.
quote:Originally posted by Nikcara:
There will always be haters, but the negative comments in this thread say one thing, Jealousy. Loud and Clear.
.............................
So for all those that did not get in, like I said before, Everything ain't for everybody. J&J is exclusive for a reason. It is about values. If you don't share mine, no problem.
Jealousy? Over what? Your fantastic values? ....
So being smart means being loaded?
you know... it seems that you could make membership affordable and when the ignorant negroes try to get into your little club they'll turn back once they see all the nerds...they'll understand right away it's not for them... exclusivity problem solved without being a frickin' snob to boot...
You know... there are smart kids from the ghetto too... even ones that have gone on to get graduate degrees and are childless...
Geez... I'm not getting sucked into this one...Speechless...
quote:As African people we are tribal by nature, because of the Diaspora we are so mixed up that we now associate by common attributes
Tribal by nature????????
retarded.
As I've watched this thread develop, I've been trying to articulate my own problems with J&J... I think that task has just been performed for me...
quote:I wonder how many people saw the report that says that being Black and Smart means that you lose friends, it was on 20/20 and in the book Freakanomics. That book also extolled similarities of being a Beauty Pageant contestant and a Drug Dealer. That 20/20 episode had these Black kids getting called names because they were smart. Sad testament on the state of Black America where being mediocore seems to be all the rage and totally in fashion. I say be a trend setter and be smart.
Being educated, staying out of trouble, carrying yourself with self respect, and coming from a family that teaches what is needed to survive in our world is not why Black folks are accused of "acting white."
Black folks who use the term "acting white" do so because they do not have the language to express what it is they know / believe to be true about the motives of their brethren. Most Black people know when they are in the company of a brother or sister who is uncomfortable wearing Black skin. The term acting white has nothing to do with the value systems you mentioned... the term acting white is reserved for the phenotypical African who openly rejects an empowering Black agenda, who prefers to define themselves as "other," who talks about living in a "color blind society" - and many, many, more types of anti-Black, anti African behavior. Normally those called out for acting white claim to be characterized as such because they are somehow the embodiment of all things good and productive - and this is a belief rooted in euro centric mythology... a belief that must be challenged at every turn... an ideal that is simply not true and allows Black folks to escape without having to look at themselves.
Our people know the enemy, even if they are are a Supreme Court Justice, Sec of State, or Chairman of the Joints Chief of Staff. We know when we are around self loathing, self deprecating negroes who define themselves through the blue eyes of white supremacist thought. I know when I am in the company of safe Black folks - and I stay away from handkerchief head, knee-slapping, over laughing, grinning, buck dancing, eye bulging negroes who needed the validation of white folks in order to get by.
I was a member of J&J (until I wised up), went to a fancy private school, got mostly A's and a few B's, 1400 SAT score (which was low in my school), played all types of sports including lacrosse (I walked around the hood with a lax stick in my hand) play chess, acted in school plays, carried books, studied Shotokan, went to college, pursuing a Ph.d... and I aint ever been accused by my people for acting white.
Black folks know a traitor when they see one!
Honestbrother, 
get a life 
, . Why should we lower the price so folk could get in. Being called nerd is like being called White. 
Oh by the way, did anybody check out Shango67, the only other person besides me and MBM to be former J&J partisipants. If it is really his picture, he could not pass the paper bag test either.
And he so proves the point that Everything Aint for Everybody, he hated J&J. It is about values.
get a life , . Why should we lower the price so folk could get in. Being called nerd is like being called White. Oh by the way, did anybody check out Shango67, the only other person besides me and MBM to be former J&J partisipants. If it is really his picture, he could not pass the paper bag test either.
And he so proves the point that Everything Aint for Everybody, he hated J&J. It is about values.quote:Originally posted by Nikcara:
Honestbrother,
Oh by the way, did anybody check out Shango67, the only other person besides me and MBM to be former J&J partisipants. If it is really his picture, he could not pass the paper bag test either.
Nikcara, I have a Ph.D. (among other graduate degrees) - more than enough education for your little club - I can afford membership,... I even live in the 'right neighborhood'....hell, I'm a 'nerd' myself... I wasn't trying to call you a name... My point was that there are ways of remaining exclusive without being an economic snob - if educational values were all you really cared about...
But I doubt very much if educational values are all you care about ...and so I wouldn't be caught dead socializing with negroes like you...
quote:If it is really his picture, he could not pass the paper bag test either. And he so proves the point that Everything Aint for Everybody, he hated J&J. It is about values.
My acceptance to J&J was based upon status... dad was a VP for a major airline and moms wrote computer programs used by the military for Grumman Aerospace. Fact is, there was very few dark folks (in that chapter) and other Jack and Jillians reminded me that I was dark EVERYDAY!
You should lower the prices for people to get in because there are brilliant kids (who are good and wholesome) from lower class neighborhoods who could use the enrichment and encouragement... If that's what you were really about... 
I was one of them...
I was one of them...
quote:Originally posted by Shango67:
Being educated, staying out of trouble, carrying yourself with self respect, and coming from a family that teaches what is needed to survive in our world is not why Black folks are accused of "acting white."
Black folks who use the term "acting white" do so because they do not have the language to express what it is they know / believe to be true about the motives of their brethren. Most Black people know when they are in the company of a brother or sister who is uncomfortable wearing Black skin. The term acting white has nothing to do with the value systems you mentioned... the term acting white is reserved for the phenotypical African who openly rejects an empowering Black agenda, who prefers to define themselves as "other," who talks about living in a "color blind society" - and many, many, more types of anti-Black, anti African behavior. Normally those called out for acting white claim to be characterized as such because they are somehow the embodiment of all things good and productive - and this is a belief rooted in euro centric mythology... a belief that must be challenged at every turn... an ideal that is simply not true and allows Black folks to escape without having to look at themselves.
Our people know the enemy, even if they are are a Supreme Court Justice, Sec of State, or Chairman of the Joints Chief of Staff. We know when we are around self loathing, self deprecating negroes who define themselves through the blue eyes of white supremacist thought. I know when I am in the company of safe Black folks - and I stay away from handkerchief head, knee-slapping, over laughing, grinning, buck dancing, eye bulging negroes who needed the validation of white folks in order to get by.
I was a member of J&J (until I wised up), went to a fancy private school, got mostly A's and a few B's, 1400 SAT score (which was low in my school), played all types of sports including lacrosse (I walked around the hood with a lax stick in my hand) play chess, acted in school plays, carried books, studied Shotokan, went to college, pursuing a Ph.d... and I aint ever been accused by my people for acting white.
Black folks know a traitor when they see one!
Nice...
quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
there are ways of remaining exclusive without being an economic snob - if educational values were all you really cared about...
Exactly....
You assume to much Sir. Since I daresay, the feeling is more than mutual.quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Nikcara, I have a Ph.D. (among other graduatee degrees)
My point was that there are ways of remaining exclusive without being an economic snob
if educational values were all you really cared about...
But I doubt very much if educational values are all you care about...and so I wouldn't be caught dead socializing with negroes like you...
quote:Originally posted by Nikcara:You assume to much Sir. Since I daresay, the feeling is more than mutual.quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Nikcara, I have a Ph.D. (among other graduatee degrees)
My point was that there are ways of remaining exclusive without being an economic snob
But I doubt very much if educational values are all you care about
Thank you for pulling out that nasty little 'tude you got there and illustrating for all to see reasons other than jealousy for people not to like J&J... You even convinced me and I was a fence-sitter... Nice going, chief
I'm outty!...
To reduce the criticisms of the J&J organization to jealousy wreaks, of dishonesty and laziness, homie.
I've stayed away from this intentionally, but I have a question or two:
From the Jack & Jill website:
OUR GOALS
The goals, found primarily in the objectives of Jack & Jill of America, Inc. serve as our constant guides. They are as follows:
"¢ To create a medium of contact for children which will stimulate their growth and development.
"¢ To provide constructive educational, cultural, civic, recreational, social and service programs for children
"¢ To aid mothers in learning more about their children by careful study
"¢ To seek for ALL children the same advantages we desire for our own
"¢ To support all national legislation aimed at bettering conditions for all children.
This appears to be opposite what former members here are saying about the organization. The organization's goals make no mention of status or wealth as prerequisites. No references are made to aiming for Black children living in predominately White communities. The goal appears to be to improve the quality of life for all African-American children.
Based on what the organization submits, is HB's request for reasonable dues valid? Don't smart, impoverished children need this message as well?:
From the Jack & Jill website:
OUR GOALS
The goals, found primarily in the objectives of Jack & Jill of America, Inc. serve as our constant guides. They are as follows:
"¢ To create a medium of contact for children which will stimulate their growth and development.
"¢ To provide constructive educational, cultural, civic, recreational, social and service programs for children
"¢ To aid mothers in learning more about their children by careful study
"¢ To seek for ALL children the same advantages we desire for our own
"¢ To support all national legislation aimed at bettering conditions for all children.
This appears to be opposite what former members here are saying about the organization. The organization's goals make no mention of status or wealth as prerequisites. No references are made to aiming for Black children living in predominately White communities. The goal appears to be to improve the quality of life for all African-American children.
Based on what the organization submits, is HB's request for reasonable dues valid? Don't smart, impoverished children need this message as well?:
quote:J&J is about taking your kids to the next level, letting them know on in very real way on an intimate level that they are not alone, that being educated does not make you less Black and that living some subsistence lifestyle is not the only future for Black people, that you can and should enjoy all this world has to offer.
I recalled (when i was about 8 or so), certain family members wanted all of the children to join J&J.
We were told that we would be able to meet other children, of doctors, lawyers, etc..............but for me and the others, we didnt care.
It was a big fight....which ended, with no one joining.
The difference between then and now, is the fact that there are more AA with degrees, more doctors, lawyers, engineers, phds, etc.........and its not uncommon meeting and associating with people who are just like yourself.
I can understand this happening years ago.....but im not too sure, if it makes a difference today.
We were told that we would be able to meet other children, of doctors, lawyers, etc..............but for me and the others, we didnt care.
It was a big fight....which ended, with no one joining.
The difference between then and now, is the fact that there are more AA with degrees, more doctors, lawyers, engineers, phds, etc.........and its not uncommon meeting and associating with people who are just like yourself.
I can understand this happening years ago.....but im not too sure, if it makes a difference today.
quote:Originally posted by ddouble:
This appears to be opposite what former members here are saying about the organization. The organization's goals make no mention of status or wealth as prerequisites. No references are made to aiming for Black children living in predominately White communities. The goal appears to be to improve the quality of life for all African-American children.
Based on what the organization submits, is HB's request for reasonable dues valid? Don't smart, impoverished children need this message as well?:quote:J&J is about taking your kids to the next level, letting them know on in very real way on an intimate level that they are not alone, that being educated does not make you less Black and that living some subsistence lifestyle is not the only future for Black people, that you can and should enjoy all this world has to offer.
quote:Originally posted by virtue:
As in most organizations.....
there is what is preached....
and then there is what's practiced......
quote:Originally posted by Shango67:
Being educated, staying out of trouble, carrying yourself with self respect, and coming from a family that teaches what is needed to survive in our world is not why Black folks are accused of "acting white."
Are you sure, because I have heard it more than once and not on this site. Oh and when I did hear it, it was not about me too...
Black folks who use the term "acting white" do so because they do not have the language to express what it is they know / believe to be true about the motives of their brethren.
The term acting white has nothing to do with the value systems you mentioned... Disagree on that because that is not how the term has been used prior to your, novel interpretation....the term acting white is reserved for the phenotypical African who openly rejects an empowering Black agenda, who prefers to define themselves as "other," who talks about living in a "color blind society" - and many, many, more types of anti-Black, anti African behavior. Shango, you should really stop talking about Justic Thomas and Secretary of State Rice like that., it's not nice....... I personally feel quite sorry for those person and those of thier ilk, but that is thier cross to bear.
Normally those called out for acting white claim to be characterized as such because they are somehow the embodiment of all things good and productive - and this is a belief rooted in euro centric mythology... a belief that must be challenged at every turn...I agree an ideal that is simply not true and allows Black folks to escape without having to look at themselves.
Our people know the enemy, even if they are are a Supreme Court Justice, Sec of State, or Chairman of the Joints Chief of Staff. We know when we are around self loathing, self deprecating negroes who define themselves through the blue eyes of white supremacist thought. I agree whole heartedly.
I know when I am in the company of safe Black folks - and I stay away from handkerchief head, knee-slapping, over laughing, grinning, buck dancing, eye bulging negroes who needed the validation of white folks in order to get by.
I was a member of J&J (until I wised up), went to a fancy private school, got mostly A's and a few B's, 1400 SAT score (which was low in my school)[funny I don't even remember my SAT score, but 22 years ago, I digress....., played all types of sports including lacrosse (I walked around the hood with a lax stick in my hand)By the way, did they know what the lax stick was in the hood?...Just asking...... play chess, acted in school plays, carried books, studied ShotokanAmen, I am glad you escaped the nightmare, you are unique but with all of that are you sure it was never said behind your back.....
Black folks know a traitor when they see one!
Yes, we do know the traitor, and they come often in sheeps clothing. Often screaming how Black they are, but in reality, they are just poverty pimps
Everything Aint for Everybody, he hated J&J.
Yes, it was based on status, but my point was that the hue of your skin was not a disqualifying attribute or you would not have gotten in even based on status. It also seems, that you were critized for being too Black while playing Lacrosse... I feel for you sound like you had a messed up chapter. Fortunatly that was not my experience. I had enough problems with white kids.
quote:Originally posted by Shango67:
My acceptance to J&J was based upon status... dad was a VP for a major airline and moms wrote computer programs used by the military for Grumman Aerospace. Fact is, there was very few dark folks (in that chapter) and other Jack and Jillians reminded me that I was dark EVERYDAY!
Yes, it was based on status, but my point was that the hue of your skin was not a disqualifying attribute or you would not have gotten in even based on status. It also seems, that you were critized for being too Black while playing Lacrosse... I feel for you sound like you had a messed up chapter. Fortunatly that was not my experience. I had enough problems with white kids.
quote:Originally posted by Nikcara:quote:Originally posted by Shango67:
Black folks know a traitor when they see one!
Yes, we do know the traitor, and they come often in sheeps clothing. Often screaming how Black they are, but in reality, they are just poverty pimps
That is a profound statement that speaks much truth. These are the ones that smile in your face while getting the dagger ready to stab you in the back
quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Thank you for pulling out that nasty little 'tude you got there and illustrating for all to see reasons other than jealousy for people not to like J&J... You even convinced me and I was a fence-sitter... Nice going, chief
I'm outty!...
You get attitude with me and then I can't respond in kind?
Now who is
quote:Originally posted by Nikcara:quote:Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Thank you for pulling out that nasty little 'tude you got there and illustrating for all to see reasons other than jealousy for people not to like J&J... You even convinced me and I was a fence-sitter... Nice going, chief
I'm outty!...
You get attitude with me and then I can't respond in kind?
Now who is
When you confuse "values/love of education" and "finances" (as if less wealthy people can't love learning) and then label all critics "jealous" as you did in the post to which I initially responded, I call that putting on some la-di-da A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E...
Live with it.
quote:Originally posted by ddouble:
I've stayed away from this intentionally, but I have a question or two:
From the Jack & Jill website:
OUR GOALS
The goals, found primarily in the objectives of Jack & Jill of America, Inc. serve as our constant guides. They are as follows:
"¢ To create a medium of contact for children which will stimulate their growth and development.
"¢ To provide constructive educational, cultural, civic, recreational, social and service programs for children
"¢ To aid mothers in learning more about their children by careful study
"¢ To seek for ALL children the same advantages we desire for our own
"¢ To support all national legislation aimed at bettering conditions for all children.
This appears to be opposite what former members here are saying about the organization. The organization's goals make no mention of status or wealth as prerequisites. No references are made to aiming for Black children living in predominately White communities. The goal appears to be to improve the quality of life for all African-American children.
Based on what the organization submits, is HB's request for reasonable dues valid? Don't smart, impoverished children need this message as well?:quote:J&J is about taking your kids to the next level, letting them know on in very real way on an intimate level that they are not alone, that being educated does not make you less Black and that living some subsistence lifestyle is not the only future for Black people, that you can and should enjoy all this world has to offer.
Great point.
By being exclusive, they can't expect to give ALL children the advantages as their mission states.