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Originally posted by Shango67:
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Perhaps if you had focused on getting to know your Jack & Jill mates instead

Why? I already know a number of white people.
Exactly as I thought. How can you call yourself a Pan Africanist if you hold such an extraordinarily narrow view of your own people? You attack those who you say are classist, with as virulent and obnoxious a form of classism yourself. How does that move black people forward. (I'm asking that rhetorically, it won't be too hard to guess what your answer will be.) td6
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Originally posted by Vox:
But to HB & Shango, I think you have things a bit mixed up. People of means leave the hood BECAUSE of the crime, violence, and substandard living. That would logically mean that the crime, violence and substandard conditions existed BEFORE they moved. It was the original WHITE flight that contributed heavily to the decline in these neighborhoods, for a plethora of really outrageous reasons. But the black people who have since fled did not cause the decay. The decay was already there. There is no exodus of black people from stable, safe, quality black neighborhoods, and I defy one of you to support otherwise.


Vox, I'm ot necessarily disagreeing with you... I think it's probably a bit of both...

What comes first? the chicken or the egg? But my overall point stands. These areas suffer suffer from disinvestment... and black flight doesn't help.... it arguably speeds up the decay.
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Originally posted by HonestBrother:
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Originally posted by Shango67:
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Perhaps if you had focused on getting to know your Jack & Jill mates instead

Why? I already know a number of white people.


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Again, no disrespect intended, but you are the most dishonest one here on this issue. You embrace classism and exclusivity when it suits your purposes but yet still argue otherwise. You went to Princeton. Why not Howard? Montclair State? Rutgers? Are you teaching at an HBCU now? Don't you know how badly 'the community' needs black male teachers??? You admit to living in what you characterize as the "right neighborhood". (Yes you are the one to characterize it that way. Why is it "right"?) So everything I've talked about in terms of making the best decision that you can for yourself and your family - you've done. You are who Shango67 is attacking, yet you still try to 'front' like you're 'down wit da crew'. You are the person that I talked about who while growing up in the hood, had the ability to 'move on up' based upon hard work and determination, and you did. That's a great thing and to be truly sincere, I'm proud of you for that! But it seems rather dishonest to argue against the very things that you have worked your butt off to become. Why aren't you telling Shango67 that 'yes, it's possible to leave the community physically but remain there in your heart'? Why aren't you screaming from the top of your lungs that blackness is much broader than that? Yet you sit back in your cozy office and laugh at Shango67's weak azz remarks.

There's absolutely no integrity in your position.
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Does it make sense to label an entire class of people because of something you read about someone in one book


Ok. True. If that was what I was saying. When I say Black bourgeoisie I mean those wealthy blacks that think they are better then those less fortunate but I understand how you could misunderstand my statement

But it is odd to have you accuse me of labeling people but then label poor blacks.

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if poorer blacks didn't tear shit up, wouldn't break into your crib, didn't do drugs on the corner, and didn't destroy their schools. When poor black folks show some commitment to their neighborhoods maybe wealthier blacks would feel more able to contribute and stay.



I didn't say "crime was more prevalent..." I said STATISTICS might show crime is more prevalent. People love to show how some crimes are the domain of some like black male's i.e. violent crime. HOWEVER, certain crimes are NOT the domain of certain classes of people

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How and by whom?


By those that DO perpetuate an exclusionary belief about J&J. Contrary to you do not believe it they do exits. It not only comes from reading the books but speaking with people who grew up in that environment and who will admit that people that think like this are a part of the J&J crowd

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To suggest that classism is a new phenomenon is uninformed.


I never suggested this. I said that when we were FORCED to be together and there was no WHITE SUBURB for the achieving blacks to move to they were in the black community – rich, poor, and in between. I didn't say that we didn't have snobbish people or classism back then. The point is that achieving blacks were available and a source of inspiration for the poorer blacks. They had wealth, property, churches, nice clothing, etc and being around the poor didn't stop them or mean they had "sacrficed"

The black poor have their responsibility in these issues. I never denied that. And contrary to some people's assessments, the poor are trying to achieve and do better.

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but are you going to keep your kids in the hood and prevent them from going to better schools and deny your family the opportunity to benefit from a higher growth in property values?


That's the point. I would venture that any parent – rich or poor/black or white – wants what will help them and their children to achieve and to do better. And not many people will want to "sacrifice" their children's future but I don't' see why we keep insisting that running from the issues in our community AND seemingly abandoning them can't at a minimum be considered an issue to speak about.

And once again just because someone doesn't find a particular black organization to be perfect doesn't mean they are "not feeling good about your level of achievement against theirs?"

I do not measure my success on achieving what everyone else has achieved or has deemed the measure of a successful person. There are materially wealthy but spiritually poor people all around us.
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Originally posted by Vox:
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Originally posted by Shango67:
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At the end of the day, Tony Soprano is far less likely to vic me for what little shit I have as opposed to the crackhead who would slit my throat for $20.

Crackheads aint running around slitting throats for twenty bones. In fact, there are no more crackheads left.


Wow, I wonder where these utopian lands are. No more crackheads...

I will say that I don't know how many crackheads actually go around stabbing people; most of the crackheads I see (still, even though Shango says they don't exist) are not capable of physically hurting people... I don't know.

But to HB & Shango, I think you have things a bit mixed up. People of means leave the hood BECAUSE of the crime, violence, and substandard living. That would logically mean that the crime, violence and substandard conditions existed BEFORE they moved. It was the original WHITE flight that contributed heavily to the decline in these neighborhoods, for a plethora of really outrageous reasons. But the black people who have since fled did not cause the decay. The decay was already there. There is no exodus of black people from stable, safe, quality black neighborhoods, and I defy one of you to support otherwise.

The "no crackheads left" comment was my way of being sarcastic. So cut out the bullshit. Nevertheless, the crack pandemic is over and I don't see the streets of Harlem as a place filled with crackheads... or crackheads who are robbing people and slitting throats.

White flight is not rsponsible for urban decay. The decrease in quality of urban life is a result from a shift inherent to capitalism; particularly a change from manufacturing to service economy WITHOUT a federal urban plan.
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Originally posted by LibDem:
Again, no disrespect intended, but you are the most dishonest one here on this issue. You embrace classism and exclusivity when it suits your purposes but yet still argue otherwise. You went to Princeton. Why not Howard? Montclair State? Rutgers? Are you teaching at an HBCU now? Don't you know how badly 'the community' needs black male teachers??? You admit to living in what you characterize as the "right neighborhood". (Yes you are the one to characterize it that way. Why is it "right"?) So everything I've talked about in terms of making the best decision that you can for yourself and your family - you've done. You are who Shango67 is attacking, yet you still try to 'front' like you're 'down wit da crew'. You are the person that I talked about who while growing up in the hood, had the ability to 'move on up' based upon hard work and determination, and you did. That's a great thing and to be truly sincere, I'm proud of you for that! But it seems rather dishonest to argue against the very things that you have worked your butt off to become. Why aren't you telling Shango67 that 'yes, it's possible to leave the community physically but remain there in your heart'? Why aren't you screaming from the top of your lungs that blackness is much broader than that? Yet you sit back in your cozy office and laugh at Shango67's weak azz remarks.

There's absolutely no integrity in your position.


First off, I would appreciate if you didn't question my integrity... You don't know even know me.

Second, I agree that "yes, it's possible to leave the community physically but remain there in your heart? "

Nothing I've said denies this (if you mean by that not living in predominately black neighborhoods)...

And this:

"Why aren't you screaming from the top of your lungs that blackness is much broader than that?"

I do every fucking day.

But at the same time, I'm a defender of the dignity of people who live in the 'hood'. I still have family that live there... And I take serious issue with people (black or white) that seem to want to front like they're better than these people. Please note the events that drew me into this discussion:

1) Nikcara's comment which seemed to equate good values and love of learning with wealth

2) Your comment which seemed to imply that everyone in the hood was "tearing shit up".

In a previous post (on this thread) I stated that I'm strongly considering moving to the 'hood'... and I already spend a great deal of time there in several volunteer/professional capacitities.

Again, I will not question your integrity if you refrain from questioning mine.

PS: AND I HAVE TAUGHT AT AN HBCU... I actually applied to Howard before I took my present job. Those asses made the mistake of not hiring me.
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Originally posted by HonestBrother:

Again, I will not question your integrity if you refrain from questioning mine.


Cool. I apologize.

It just seems a bit odd that you would be generally aggreeing with Shango even when he makes ridiculous statements like those who leave the hood are doing so to be nearer to white people.
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Originally posted by LibDem:
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Originally posted by HonestBrother:

Again, I will not question your integrity if you refrain from questioning mine.


Cool. I apologize.


No problem. We cool.

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LibDem:
It just seems a bit odd that you would be generally aggreeing with Shango even when he makes ridiculous statements like those who leave the hood are doing so to be nearer to white people.



I don't entirely agree with Shango either... It's just that I agree more with Shango than... say... Nikcara...

Lastly, there are a lot of black people who believe white is better. Not everyone but many.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Lastly, there are a lot of black people who believe white is better. Not everyone but many.




For the record though, the vast majority of middle and upper middle class African Americans are culturally intact and just trying to do the best that they can for themselves and their families. For anyone to suggest otherwise is just patently ridiculous. Sure there are the Clarence Thomases of the world, but they are thankfully far and few between.
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:

White flight is not rsponsible for urban decay. The decrease in quality of urban life is a result from a shift inherent to capitalism; particularly a change from manufacturing to service economy WITHOUT a federal urban plan.


That's not true at all. White flight -- or maybe more so the processes that gave rise to white flight -- account for the vast bulk of the ghettoization of black American neighborhoods. A fascinating book I read in law school (title and author escaping me at the moment) iluminates the processes brilliantly. The predatory lending that was aimed at getting multiple foreclosures on the same house in short order; the tendency of building owners to subdivide apartments and slack off on services when they saw that large numbers of blacks were trying to move in; the tendency toward criminalization that the city government attached to this new black migrant class; all of this, being fueled in part by the practice of seeking out the most ostentatiously low class, rough-around-the-edges black family to introduce to an all-white area, to thereby give the white residents the "confirmation" they needed about blacks in order to spur them on to moving...

All of these things helped dramatically ghettoize these communities. Any rioting that the resultant pent-up frustrations would inevitably lead to, simply amplified matters. The black families who have escaped these conditions did so after working their way out, and they did it in order to escape the conditions that were already there.

HonestBrother, I don't know if black flight and more destabilization can make a neighborhood worse. Personally, I believe that self-control and personal responsibility are extremely easy things to assume, and they are powerful, and they change worlds, no matter who lives next door from me. But even if I did concede that "black flight" is harmful to a neighborhood, there comes a depth of "bad" in a neighborhood that's "bad enough." Once it gets bad enough, you can't blame somebody at that point for leaving, and blame them for it getting worse than "bad enough." If my baseball team is losing 17 to nothing, you hitting a home run to make it 18 to nothing really doesn't matter.

Hey, maybe the people left behind can blame themselves for the well-off people leaving, and resolve to change? Take some responsibility, maybe? Too much to ask?

I think my bottom line is that this is a matter MOST personal, and I do strongly agree with the poster who implied that people who dis the "upper class" for "abandoning" the "lower classes" are themselves being classist.
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Originally posted by Shango67:
White flight is not rsponsible for urban decay. The decrease in quality of urban life is a result from a shift inherent to capitalism; particularly a change from manufacturing to service economy WITHOUT a federal urban plan.


Well said! So is suburbanization (responsible for urban decay).

I think instead of aiming to move Black folks into vanilla white suburbs and thus possibly creating a new "White flight", or creating more Clarence Thomases, or leaving urban renewal up to corporate/consumerist gentrification yuppies, we should look at other alternatives.

Personally, I like the ideas of New Urbanism. I also think Black communal solidarity and Black communal socialism and Black entrepreneurship would help us out greatly.

Suburbs are extremely wasteful in economic and environmental terms anyway. I would also argue that they are detrimental to communal spirit, they foster a kind of bourgeois isolation mentality (they give an "I'm seperate from all the unwashed masses" feeling) and they act as social dormitories.
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
White flight is not rsponsible for urban decay. The decrease in quality of urban life is a result from a shift inherent to capitalism; particularly a change from manufacturing to service economy WITHOUT a federal urban plan.


Well said! So is suburbanization (responsible for urban decay).

I think instead of aiming to move Black folks into vanilla white suburbs and thus possibly creating a new "White flight", or creating more Clarence Thomases, or leaving urban renewal up to corporate/consumerist gentrification yuppies, we should look at other alternatives.

Personally, I like the ideas of New Urbanism. I also think Black communal solidarity and Black communal socialism and Black entrepreneurship would help us out greatly.

Suburbs are extremely wasteful in economic and environmental terms anyway. I would also argue that they are detrimental to communal spirit, they foster a kind of bourgeois isolation mentality (they give an "I'm seperate from all the unwashed masses" feeling) and they act as social dormitories.


EP, we've missed you round these parts hat
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The predatory lending that was aimed at getting multiple foreclosures on the same house in short order; the tendency of building owners to subdivide apartments and slack off on services when they saw that large numbers of blacks were trying to move in; the tendency toward criminalization that the city government attached to this new black migrant class; all of this, being fueled in part by the practice of seeking out the most ostentatiously low class, rough-around-the-edges black family to introduce to an all-white area, to thereby give the white residents the "confirmation" they needed about blacks in order to spur them on to moving...

None of this is white flight, as you already know.

URBAN DECLINE BEGAN IN the 1930's!!!! White flight is just one of the symptoms of urban failure not the cause.

Moreover...

White flight is actually linked more accurately to the birth of the amerikkkan suburbs. After the amerikkan / european war from 1939-45 and beginning in the 1950's, whites made a massive exodus out of America's cities for the prospect of home ownership in newly created suburbs. A case study of Levittown, New York (and subsequently Levittown, Pennsylvania and Levittown, New Jersey), demonstrate exactly how whites established and maintained generations of communities that remained exclusively white. For $10 down and $90 dollars at closing, whites could purchase a home with the land. Through restrictive clauses forbidding the sale or transfer of suburban property and homes to African Americans, whites were able to secure virtually all white suburban communities well in the 1980's.

Nevertheless, when the suburbs began to open up for Black folks (in certain areas and at higher prices), they fled because of the white constructed mythology that there were better schools and safer neighborhoods.
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Originally posted by FireFly/art_gurl:
For those ignorant of what that term actually means (me), I'd be grateful if you could provide a brief explanation?


Sure! Smile

http://www.newurbanism.org/pages/416429/index.htm

It's basically a way of renewing urban centers and making them liveable again. This would attract workers back to the cities so they can be closer to their jobs (thus also vastly reducing highway traffic and highway clutter), the cities would also be liveable and safe.

Suburbs, while nice to live in, are very unproductive economically (they bring in no money other than the money gain from the price of the houses), and they are environmentally destructive, constantly needing deforestation for space. They also destroy the sense of community because they act as dormitories and bed communities for people with pink and white-collar jobs.

Urban centers bring in more money since they are living centers for workers to be near their jobs, and they also leave the environment free for agriculture and ruralism. New urbanism reduces urban sprawl and reduces urban poverty.


It's a way of turning this:








into this:












quote:
Originally posted by Shango67:
Yes EP!

I was writing the above post as you were responding.

There is way too much emphasis on white flight and not enough talk about how and why we wanted to follow them.


Thank you! I'm glad you're bringing these issues to the table!

We also aren't discussing how Black Flight to the suburbs would not solve the problem. What happens if everyone leaves the city? More destructive suburbaniation and urban sprawl.
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Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
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Originally posted by HonestBrother:
EP, we've missed you round these parts hat


You have no idea how much I've missed you guys! Frown Cool

I've been gone due to several multiple-page essays and presentations, calculus and French tests and school business. So I was reduced to lurking for a while. But I'm back now. Big Grin



**same here......still lurking and reading...hope everyone has been okay.....

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