Jack and Jill of America, Inc.

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

Neither... I was too busy being a student... I graduated summa cum laude and am a member of several national honor societies... and I've never particularly cared for college sports... I'm happy to report that as an undergraduate, graduate student, and now as university faculty member I've never attended (or even watched) a single college sporting event


Question: Have you always been a trifling bitch or is that just recent?

Honestbrother, I can truly tell you are a college grad and that you finished graduate school but your choice terms that are as base as your mentality. But then again you have proven on more than one occasion that you are not comfortable conversing with polite society even when given the opportunity. I guess you are not used to people challenging your perceptions or conclusions since you are sooooo educated. However, I do disagree with you and I am at just as much liberty to express myself as you are.

quote:

Originally posted by Shango67:
From where I stand, it seems to me that Honest Brother used his time in college properly. For example, he would have never used the words "male cheerleader" together, cause he is learned enough to know that a cheerleader, by definition, is not gender specific.

First I was a cheerleader in High School and College, and am I Pop Warner Coach thus I know the vernacular well and used the term correctly, something that you obviously do not know. Second, your negative experience with J&J merely proves the point that "Everything ain't for everybody". Third, you too should light a candle. You have a lot of hostility about a program you did not enjoy,..... touch a chord , that other people did enjoy. But then again, your posts, that I have read, express a lot of hostility and not a lot of solutions. It is funny that we, You, Honestbrother and me would ever agree on any issue. But alas we did, and we will probably agree again. That is life in a complex world, what can I say.

Pull your shoes up, broad

I have a right to be HOSTILE.

And as a former J&J member, I can speak to the organizational dysfunction with clarity.

As far as solutions... I have posted them solutions all over this board.

You were a cheerleader with the Special Olympics. I light the candle while you speak into the mic.

quote:

Originally posted by Nikcara:
Honestbrother, I can truly tell you are a college grad and that you finished graduate school but your choice terms that are as base as your mentality.

You know nothing of my mentality. Except that I call them like I see them. If you have a problem with anything I've said then maybe you need to check yourself .... You simply must excuse us poor negroes from the lower classes - who were denied the civilizing light of Jack and Jill. We tend to be very straightforward in expressing our thoughts. We don't beat around the bushes like you bourgie types.

Like I said, I call them like I see them...

quote:

But then again you have proven on more than one occasion that you are not comfortable conversing with polite society even when given the opportunity. I guess you are not used to people challenging your perceptions or conclusions since you are sooooo educated. However, I do disagree with you and I am at just as much liberty to express myself as you are.

Nikcara, the problem, as I see it, is not that we're disagreeing. See my exchange with MBM... I have not come out against J&J. My position is not the same as Shango. I haven't come to any conclusions about J&J other than that some of its members are really insufferable asses. But, as MBM observed, that does not constitute an objection to the organization per se... I would hope that a lawyer would have the skill to actually follow the logical progression of a discussion.

The problem, as I see it, is that you're putting on airs, made the mistake of trying to out-snob a snob who has no tolerance for snobs, and don't know how to keep yourself in check.

But so be it...I'm done wasting my time here with you on this subject... you're too busy trying to save face to actually have a productive discussion... Good day ...

Okay ... Okay .... Folks,

Everything ain't for everybody; but do YOUR thing.

J&J is an organization that is not inherently elitist; the members in this or that particular chapter may be, but the organization is not.

Why do Black folk devolve into, it's not for ME so it's a bad thing for all Black people? I think it's been shown that J&J has a legitimate purpose: to get Black children together with other Black children. That is a good thing. Period.

If you think the organization is not for you ... So what? Don't put your kids in it.

If you think the organization is elitist ... So what? Don't put your kids in it.

Personally, I like the idea of having an organization where my kid can associate and socialize with other Black kids. And, if these kids common from similar circumstances, e.g., similar economic status, similar educational experiences, etc, all the better. If that makes me an elitist ... Well ... Okay and so what?

Frankly, I don't care, nor can I imagine why anyone else would care, about a detractor's opinion of an organization that they have no intention of joining, and have no power to prevent me from joining.

quote:

Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Okay ... Okay .... Folks,

Everything ain't for everybody; but do YOUR thing.

J&J is an organization that is not inherently elitist; the members in this or that particular chapter may be, but the organization is not.

Why do Black folk devolve into, it's not for ME so it's a bad thing for all Black people? I think it's been shown that J&J has a legitimate purpose: to get Black children together with other Black children. That is a good thing. Period.

If you think the organization is not for you ... So what? Don't put your kids in it.

If you think the organization is elitist ... So what? Don't put your kids in it.

Personally, I like the idea of having an organization where my kid can associate and socialize with other Black kids. And, if these kids common from similar circumstances, e.g., similar economic status, similar educational experiences, etc, all the better. If that makes me an elitist ... Well ... Okay and so what?

Frankly, I don't care, nor can I imagine why anyone else would care, about a detractor's opinion of an organization that they have no intention of joining, and have no power to prevent me from joining.

I'd say you've about summed it up, K4R...

quote:

Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Okay ... Okay .... Folks,

Everything ain't for everybody; but do YOUR thing.

J&J is an organization that is not inherently elitist; the members in this or that particular chapter may be, but the organization is not.

Why do Black folk devolve into, it's not for ME so it's a bad thing for all Black people? I think it's been shown that J&J has a legitimate purpose: to get Black children together with other Black children. That is a good thing. Period.

If you think the organization is not for you ... So what? Don't put your kids in it.

If you think the organization is elitist ... So what? Don't put your kids in it.

Personally, I like the idea of having an organization where my kid can associate and socialize with other Black kids. And, if these kids common from similar circumstances, e.g., similar economic status, similar educational experiences, etc, all the better. If that makes me an elitist ... Well ... Okay and so what?

Frankly, I don't care, nor can I imagine why anyone else would care, about a detractor's opinion of an organization that they have no intention of joining, and have no power to prevent me from joining.

Amen

Nikcara,

Bury the hatchet? Truce? ...

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

You know nothing of my mentality. Except .....

Did you realize how illogical that sounded when you wrote it or did you not get a chance to edit and change your post before I responded?

quote:

I haven't come to any conclusions about J&J other than .....

Again, coming to one conclusion oppose your original statement yet you question my logic. Indeed.

quote:

I would hope that a lawyer would have the skill to actually follow the logical progression of a discussion.

YOU want to test my skill with these logic flaw, come into my courtroom said the Attorney to the Pro Se litigant.

quote:

The problem, as I see it, is that you're putting on airs, made the mistake of trying to out-snob a snob who has no tolerance for snobs, and don't know how to keep yourself in check.

Sounds like you just made the tacit admission that you are a snob. I never said that I was one, nor did I claim to be one. I merely stated facts regarding J&J, my participation therein and snippets about my life. You interpretation about what those facts mean says much more about you insecurity then anything else. I am sure your freshman psyche 101 class covered Projection and Negative Reflection.

Finally the likes of you could never check me so again we disagree. Oh, and by the way the reference to us agreeing deals with another thread, I thought you could keep up with multiple conversations, my bad. I have no reason to save face, simply put you have said nothing that would cause me shame. I am who I am and have been consistently so since I joined this thread. But I do hope you have a nice day as well.

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

You know nothing of my mentality. Except that I call them like I see them. If you have a problem with anything I've said then maybe you need to check yourself .... You simply must excuse us poor negroes from the lower classes - who were denied the civilizing light of Jack and Jill. We tend to be very straightforward in expressing our thoughts. We don't beat around the bushes like you bourgie types.

Like I said, I call them like I see them...

quote:

But then again you have proven on more than one occasion that you are not comfortable conversing with polite society even when given the opportunity. I guess you are not used to people challenging your perceptions or conclusions since you are sooooo educated. However, I do disagree with you and I am at just as much liberty to express myself as you are.

Nikcara, the problem, as I see it, is not that we're disagreeing. See my exchange with MBM... I have not come out against J&J. My position is not the same as Shango. I haven't come to any conclusions about J&J other than that some of its members are really insufferable asses. But, as MBM observed, that does not constitute an objection to the organization per se... I would hope that a lawyer would have the skill to actually follow the logical progression of a discussion.

The problem, as I see it, is that you're putting on airs, made the mistake of trying to out-snob a snob who has no tolerance for snobs, and don't know how to keep yourself in check.

But so be it...I'm done wasting my time here with you on this subject... you're too busy trying to save face to actually have a productive discussion... Good day ...

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Nikcara,

Bury the hatchet? Truce? ...

Agreed.

It's good to see you two , or I would've had to the both of you and then make you two under my watchful eye.

But Nikcara ... tell the truth ... you've got a thing for HonestBrother, don'tcha, Huh?

quote:

you are not comfortable conversing with polite society even when given the opportunity.

Polite society is so often such a bore and they are so caught up in their ego trip they assume others want to be like them. It seems mostly they can't conceive of people not wanting to be like them. And if it finally gets through their heads, which is unlikely, they get pi$$ed off.

I found the egos of a lot of the White guys in the fraternity I was in really hilarious. Classism is a bigger deal than racism in many ways and it can't be separated from economics.

But I think the distribution of knowledge and the classism created by the educational system can be seriously denteded with the internet.

umbrarchist

quote:

Originally posted by Nikcara:

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Nikcara,

Bury the hatchet? Truce? ...

Agreed.

Please continue your petty bickering, it is extremely entertaining.


umbra

quote:

Originally posted by Nikcara:

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

You know nothing of my mentality. Except .....

Did you realize how illogical that sounded when you wrote it or did you not get a chance to edit and change your post before I responded?

If you remove the period and follow the natural flow of the utterance there was not a thing illogical about the statement. If you haven't noticed, I tend to use punctuation to indicate speech rhythms. The period was intended to indicate a pause.

Don't you realize that the grammatical/logical function of phrases like "except that" and "other than" is to qualify an utterance by admitting exceptions to an otherwise general statement?

quote:

Nikcara:

quote:

Honestbrother:
The problem, as I see it, is that you're putting on airs, made the mistake of trying to out-snob a snob who has no tolerance for snobs, and don't know how to keep yourself in check.

Sounds like you just made the tacit admission that you are a snob. I never said that I was one, nor did I claim to be one.

Yes. Good... You can read I did indeed make the tacit admission that I'm a snob. That was my intention. I also made the observation that you are a snob... although apparently you aren't prepared to accept the truth about yourself.

quote:

Nikcara:
I merely stated facts regarding J&J, my participation therein and snippets about my life.

You said much more than that, my dear. You laughed at the idea that the membership fee be lowered so that more people can benefit from the organization. When everyone else involved on this thread expressed varying degrees of disgust at your arrogant callousness, you then went about rationalizing your stance by touting the idea that being exclusive is really such a great thing. Clubs and cliques are part of the human condition after all... according to you. Abracadabra! The solution is to just go out and start your own exclusive clique!

Don't f*ck with me, dearie ... I and everyone else here can read...

quote:

Nikcara:
Finally the likes of you could never check me so again we disagree.

Honey, I'll check you all the way past the cash register, through the door, and into the parking lot... all day... every day... every goddamned week of the year...

quote:

Nikcara:
Oh, and by the way the reference to us agreeing deals with another thread, I thought you could keep up with multiple conversations, my bad.

I knew exactly to what you were referring. It was to the thread on the crisis of African American motherhood. What made you think I didn't know?

quote:

Nikcara:
I have no reason to save face, simply put you have said nothing that would cause me shame.

Yep... I guess you got so much mud on your face you can't tell the difference no more...

I was trying to be a gentleman with the offer to bury the hatchet. I'm not going to do it again.

What up? You want to have my baby?


PS: You're putting on airs and trifling again...

quote:

Originally posted by umbrarchist:

Please continue your petty bickering, it is extremely entertaining.


umbra

Umbra, I aims to please... I 'm glad someone is getting a kick out of this silliness...

I'm also glad people are finding a use for : I'm the one suggested MBM add it

quote:

Umbra, I aims to please... I 'm glad someone is getting a kick out of this silliness...

I think the cultural differences are hopeless.

Nikcara wrote:

quote:

First I was a cheerleader in High School and College, and am I Pop Warner Coach thus I know the vernacular well and used the term correctly, something that you obviously do not know.

I went to four basketball games the entire time I was in high school and that was freshman year. Playing sports could be fun and a nice way to exercise when the other players don't get too serious about it. But that is what has happened with a lot of Black men. I noticed in that fraternity that the jocks and the NROTCs (pronounced neurotics, Navy ROTC) had similar types of mentalities.

I have concluded that high school sports and competition between schools helps foster the mentality Europeans need to produce their armies for their military power games.

Discussing sports with a cheerleader?? Rah, Rah, Rah!

The EuroAmerican Dream

Who the hell is Pop Warner?

http://www.popwarner.com/

Found it.

We've got, books, computer and the internet. Why do we need this for real scholarship?

umbra

You know Honestbrother, you and Shango67 are really troubled on a number of levels. Suffice it to say, after this post I have said all I have to say to either of you on this topic. I will treat you like I treat another poster on this site, I will simply decline to entertain the mostly internally inconsistent drivel the two of you post even during those rare moments when a salient point is made to which I also subscribe.

Honestbrother, as to your newest assertion and despite you very charming offer I, regretfully decline your offer to mix your DNA with mine.

Shango67, I am disappointed, but not at all surprised, that you would attempt to speak ill of the Special Olympics which is a very important and vibrant organization. You words speak volumes about your hostility and your character.

quote:

Originally posted by Nikcara:
You know Honestbrother, you and Shango67 are really troubled on a number of levels.

Then I guess that's something else we all three share in common

check...and ... mate...

quote:

I am disappointed, but not at all surprised, that you would attempt to speak ill of the Special Olympics which is a very important and vibrant organization

Hey, Isn't that another exclusive organization?

But changing the flow a bit ...

This thread got me to thinking, actually questioning, what is so bad about being of the Black community's elite?

The fact is, everyone on this site IS a part of the Black community's elite. We should not deny it, apologize for it or accept being stigmatized by our fortune and/or hardwork. And we have a duty to communicate to our children that they are socially and economically gifted and that there are other socially and economically gifted Black children. It goes along way to combatting the negative images our children are bombarded with daily.

Editorial note: Please replace each pronoun with the appropriate personal pronoun. I cannot speak for anyone other than myself.

quote:

Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

quote:

I am disappointed, but not at all surprised, that you would attempt to speak ill of the Special Olympics which is a very important and vibrant organization

Hey, Isn't that another exclusive organization?

But changing the flow a bit ...

This thread got me to thinking, actually questioning, what is so bad about being of the Black community's elite?

The fact is, everyone on this site IS a part of the Black community's elite. We should not deny it, apologize for it or accept being stigmatized by our fortune and/or hardwork. And we have a duty to communicate to our children that they are socially and economically gifted and that there are other socially and economically gifted Black children. It goes along way to combatting the negative images our children are bombarded with daily.

Editorial note: Please replace each pronoun with the appropriate personal pronoun. I cannot speak for anyone other than myself.

K4R, there isn't anything wrong with being part of the elite... but with that position also comes some responsibility IMO

I was absolutely aghast at the classism expressed by a certain someone... who seemed to indirectly suggest that poor black people don't value learning... that being part of that little clique made you somehow superior to other black people...

Why?

Because I don't come from wealth... I don't even come from the middle class... I come from the black working and lower class...

Yet I lived in mixed mostly white (working class) neighborhoods... though I also lived in housing projects at certain points... and I excelled academically in environments where I was often racially alone...

I.e., by the stated goals of the organization, I would have been the perfect candidate for J&J...

But my family would have not been able to afford membership...

My early life story is a case study in battling the academic odds alone... And there are many more like me...

But so what? says a certain someone... ...

Excuse me if I don't find this shit to be funny....

This is not to center the discussion on me... it's to explain my stance in this thread and point out the dangers of elitist attitudes... Yes... be the elite... be proud of it...

But don't just sit on your proud azz and be absolutely useless to anyone outside your little clique of those who are like you and have "made it".... not only useless but an obstruction... something I believe to be the case for large portions of the black middle class...

quote:

that you would attempt to speak ill of the Special Olympics which is a very important and vibrant organization

I was speaking ill of YOU, not the Special Olympics.

quote:

I will treat you like I treat another poster on this site, I will simply decline to entertain the mostly internally inconsistent drivel the two of you post even during those rare moments when a salient point is made to which I also subscribe.

I am very consistent.

and

I will not lose any sleep over you not addressing me. I have been ignored by better people.

So now that I'm a part of the black middle class why the hell should I send my kids to an organization that would not have accepted me?

what about the poor black kids in the cities where these chapters are? Are there any programs within the organization to bring in promising poor black children to expose them to the more affluent aspects of black society. Are they welcome? has anyone in the organization suggesting incorporating this aspect of the black community?

I would like to share this with you:

I was talking to an elderly member of my family last night about family history in the small southern town my family comes from. This particular section of the family is light, bright and next to white and one family member was known to have passed for white. She told me, there was a lot of mixing(races) in this small town and the white folks if they liked you, you did better than most. For example, she had an uncle who had murdered a man and didn't serve a day because he was well liked by a prominent white man and he kept him from serving time. But what surprised her most was what WE did to each other in this small town. She said there were acts of harsh brutality, cruelty and envy amongst our folks that made no sense to her. Her exact words, " Not to say the whites didn't hurt us but I couldn't believe how we could hurt each other."

And, as I was reading some of the posts here, I felt a sense of what she was saying.

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

So now that I'm a part of the black middle class why the hell should I send my kids to an organization that would not have accepted me?

Why did you do the things required to become a part of "the black middle class"?

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

So now that I'm a part of the black middle class why the hell should I send my kids to an organization that would not have accepted me?

Why did you do the things required to become a part of "the black middle class"?

By middle class, I meant economically middle class...I did those things because I loved to learn.

I had no precedents... little guidance... NEXT TO NO SUPPORT... but I did those things which came naturally to me... being and expressing myself... despite the odds ... despite the pressures to conform... active discouragement...

I'm the living walking proof that a certain poster is full of it...

I was a working class black kid who loved to learn, who loved to read, and did so at every opportunity.

That's how and why I did the things that led to my present economic status...

PS:

There is the black middle class: those who are black and have middle class economic status...

And then there is the Black Middle Class - those are middle class negroes with a certain mentality...

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

So now that I'm a part of the black middle class why the hell should I send my kids to an organization that would not have accepted me?

Why did you do the things required to become a part of "the black middle class"?

By middle class, I meant economically middle class...I did those things because I loved to learn.

I had no precedents... little guidance... NEXT TO NO SUPPORT... but I did those things which came naturally to me... being and expressing myself... despite the odds ... despite the pressures to conform... active discouragement...

I'm the living walking proof that a certain poster is full of it...

I was a working class black kid who loved to learn, who loved to read, and did so at every opportunity.

That's how and why I did the things that led to my present economic status...

So would you value those same attributes for your children - education, love of reading/learning, etc.? Despite your achievements without counsel, would you thnk it appropriate to offer your children guidance in those areas so they can maximize their personal potential? Would you hope that they have similar opportunities and experiences that you have?

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

So now that I'm a part of the black middle class why the hell should I send my kids to an organization that would not have accepted me?

Why did you do the things required to become a part of "the black middle class"?

By middle class, I meant economically middle class...I did those things because I loved to learn.

I had no precedents... little guidance... NEXT TO NO SUPPORT... but I did those things which came naturally to me... being and expressing myself... despite the odds ... despite the pressures to conform... active discouragement...

I'm the living walking proof that a certain poster is full of it...

I was a working class black kid who loved to learn, who loved to read, and did so at every opportunity.

That's how and why I did the things that led to my present economic status...

So would you value those same attributes for your children - education, love of reading/learning, etc.? Despite your achievements without counsel, would you thnk it appropriate to offer your children guidance in those areas so they can maximize their personal potential? Would you hope that they have similar opportunities and experiences that you have?

Of course! Most definitely!.... I'd want to nurture the best in them so that they realize their full potential... and I would hope they would have better experiences than I had... certainly an easier time of it... I did not have an easy time of it...

But I'd have some serious reservations about sending them to an organization that might socialize them to look down on someone like their own father (when he was younger).

quote:

Of course! Most definitely!....

But I'd have some serious reservations about sending them to an organization that might socialize them to look down on someone like their own father (when he was younger).

HonestBrother,

I would say that it is your job as a parent to expose your children to other Black children with whom they share a common social/economic status. But along with that obligation, it is also your job to teach your child to respect all people.

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

But I'd have some serious reservations about sending them to an organization that might socialize them to look down on someone like their own father (when he was younger).

Alas - we come back to the same point. WIthout regurgitating past arguments ad infinitem, I'll just leave it that J&J doesn't "socialize" anyone to "look down" on anoyone.

quote:

Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

quote:

Of course! Most definitely!....

But I'd have some serious reservations about sending them to an organization that might socialize them to look down on someone like their own father (when he was younger).

HonestBrother,

I would say that it is your job as a parent to expose your children to other Black children with whom they share a common social/economic status. But along with that obligation, it is also your job to teach your child to respect all people.

It would depend on the particular chapter of J&J...

Having met many of the black middle class in this area, I'd almost rather my kids be socialized in certain majority white settings...

Why would I send my kids to face the children of people I myself can't stand?

Excuse me, folks, but I recall reading about the Jack & Jill organization in a book called "The Color Complex" a while back. On page 25 of this book, it says the following:

{snip} To this day exclusive Black social clubs like Jack & Jill and Links have a significant majority of light-skinned members. Many churches, schools, sororities, fraternities, businesses, and even neighborhoods are also reputed to be partial to light-skinned Blacks.

Virtually every major urban center across the country has a section where predominantly light-skinned Blacks reside. In Philadelphia, mulattos live in areas unofficially called "lighty brighty" and "banana block." In Chicago, the Black bourgeoisie can be found in Chatham and East Hyde Park, and in New York, certain sections of Harlem remain reserved for descendants of the light-skinned mulatto elite. {snip}

Fab: Oh, and here's what it says about the paper-bag test. . .

The paper-bag test involved placing an arm inside a brown paper bag, and only if the skin on the arm was lighter than the color of the bag would a prospective member be invited to attend church services.

Authors of the Color Complex:

Kathy Russelll
Midge Wilson
Ronald Hall

*Now, I offer this as additional information. No way do I want any part of this dispute. I am but a po black (brown skin) woman trying to stay off welfare...hoping the library doesn't kick my black a** off the computer before I'm done posting.

Carry on people. . .and peace.

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

But I'd have some serious reservations about sending them to an organization that might socialize them to look down on someone like their own father (when he was younger).

Alas - we come back to the same point. WIthout regurgitating past arguments ad infinitem, I'll just leave it that J&J doesn't "socialize" anyone to "look down" on anoyone.

Again, you're right in theory... according to the official goals of the organization...

But particular chapters are made up of real people... with real attitudes ... and they convey those attitudes in many subtle ways... and a group of people with similar unexamined attitudes create an atmosphere...

Like I said, it would depend on the particular chapter of J&J...

I might consider joining some... It depends.

HonestBrother,

I would say that it is your job as a parent to expose your children to other Black children with whom they share a common social/economic status. But along with that obligation, it is also your job to teach your child to respect all people.


Why would you raise your children to affiliate with people based on economic and social status? why not raise your children to affiliate with people with character, self respect and a sense of pride in who they are? When them majority of black people are working class and poor, why would we play into classism? I sense people in here agress with class status and bullcrap like that. I truely believe the whole 1960;s intergration game was to allow the elites of black society to have the opportunity to assoicate with the elites in the white community.Once they found out the Whites do not want them regardless of their economic status they became salty. Then you began to see all these suburbanite blacks who tryin to run from poor blacks end up caught between the inner city and the outer rigs of the suburbs. All in all the intergration strategy only helped the middle classes while the masses became poorer. Now in this information age we want to continue to perpetuate this bourgeoisie lifestyle.

quote:

Jack and Jill has little to do with elitism within African America. As I see it, it is about trying to maintain cultural integrity within largely white suburban communities. The families come from the ranks of the professional and college educated. To the degree that that is elitist, it is. But the purpsose is to instill pride and establish links among African American children where they might not always exist.

I grew up in a white suburb of Boston in the highly racist 1970's. Jack and Jill was a tool to keep me connected with other black kids. It was not the only vehicle for that purpose, and I certainly had contact with black kids throughout the spectrum of African America, but it was a great way to connect with other black kids - not only in my town - but from around the country.

I have a few friends that come from this background. My wife gets invitations to events given by the Links. She stopped going a couple of years ago.

I think I gained real insight about the Black bourgeoisie when my book club read "Our Kind of People".

It's kind of funny. Oprah just did a piece on Class in America. A lot of people associate being upper class with wealth and education but for these people it's also about pedigree as well. They are "old money".

People like Bill Cosby or Oprah would not be "their kind of people" based on their family background.

I think what MBM said WAS true when these people first started this stuff. It was a way for black people who were succeeding in a racist society to provide a positive environment but it's apparent that is turned into something ugly.

I'm all for positive environments but not if they create black snobs and people who think that they are "superior" to others (black and white) based on who their great grandparents were or where they went school or how much money they have.

quote:

Fab: Oh, and here's what it says about the paper-bag test. . .

My wife experienced this when looking into attending Howard years ago. Needless to say she didn't go.

quote:

Originally posted by ZAKAR:
Why would you raise your children to affiliate with people based on economic and social status? why not raise your children to affiliate with people with character, self respect and a sense of pride in who they are?

I like this idea... Let's start a national organization that teaches black kids the value of learning, character, self-respect, and pride in who they are?

That does not exclude people based on income, skin shade, or pedigree?

And we can call it Shango & Yemaya ?

And for those who still want some groupings based somewhat on status, a chapter based in the burbs is naturally going to draw its members largely from the burbs.

I say this half seriously... but wouldn't this be more useful to us?

quote:

I have found that the people who talk about the paper bag test have never been present when it was used

Is this type of thinking like Nazi who say the Holocaust never happened...if you don't see it for yourself it didn't happen????

quote:

Those should be things people want for their children, but for some on this site, education =/= Black People.

People do want these things. The point is that some don't have the resources that J&J says it provides to black children because it is ONLY for CERTAIN black childern. So it's hard for people to see J&J as some type of "positive" organization for black people. It's not. It's for wealthy people or "people who can afford it" as you pointed out. But even if people come from money the organization is "selective" in who it admits

As for the change in skin color of members, that means nothing since the point is that J&J, Links and other such organizations focus on M O N E Y!

quote:

It is about values

VALUES!! What values? The value of MONEY?

Sad values

P.S. Just because people find flaws with and organization YOU have had a positive experience with doesn't mean they are "haters" or jealous.

That sounds like something a snobby person would say. So does "Everything ain't for everybody". – sounds a little like "let them eat cake.

Not everyone sits around lamenting because they "weren't invited" to join

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

But I'd have some serious reservations about sending them to an organization that might socialize them to look down on someone like their own father (when he was younger).

Alas - we come back to the same point. WIthout regurgitating past arguments ad infinitem, I'll just leave it that J&J doesn't "socialize" anyone to "look down" on anoyone.

Again, you're right in theory... according to the official goals of the organization...

But particular chapters are made up of real people... with real attitudes ... and they convey those attitudes in many subtle ways... and a group of people with similar unexamined attitudes create an atmosphere...

Like I said, it would depend on the particular chapter of J&J...

I might consider joining some... It depends.

I think this is the best way to look at it.

Living in an area with just .5% black, it was hard at times, not knowing where i belonged. (I didnt realize this until i got older) The only thing that saved me from feeling so bad, about my situation........was the fact that i have such a large family.......and we are all very close.

That should be the atmosphere, when joining a group such as this. Do your research prior to allowing your children to join.

But please dont think for one minute, just because you can provide for your children financially, that they are not going to have social issues. They will be put in a position, in which they will have to defend themselves in every direction.

Again my feelings are that there are more professionals, with children (not in my area), and maybe your children will have someone to relate to. But if not.......leave this as an option, dont close the door to the idea.

I can relate to HonestBrother. J&J gave me the cold shoulder (raised by single mom, not poor but barely rated as "middle class"..and I mean BARELY). Now that I currently meet thier "standards" I'm averse to having my daughter become part of the organization. But I do see Nicaras point as well. I'm creating an investment club and I do plan on having a "standard" myself for it. *shrugs shoulders* To each his own I guess...

Classism ony destroys the black community. A few wealthy blacks banding together spending their money within themselves or outside the mainstream of the black community doesnt benifit the community. But just as the house negro enjoyed his high status on the Master Plantation but really have no regard for the masses in the field catching hell.Its cool though at the end of the day when he gets tired of his house negro, he usually kicks out there with the rest of the masses and pick him a new nigger to do his biding