Peace..

Should black women feel strange when they view a white woman dressing in Kente cloth, wearing native african headdresses, and braids?


Just askin...



Kai
"Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!" And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.
Original Post
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace..

Should black women feel strange when they view a white woman dressing in Kente cloth, wearing native african headdresses, and braids?


Just askin...



Kai


uh... yeah... I'ma need you to not ask that again

k?

but... Black women feel strange? naw... she just trying mightily to overcome her weak phenotype... through attire...

howevuh... she might feel "strange" going to Africa with alladat on...

(Khalliqa rolls eyes)
I'm thinking it might be more appropriate - comfortable and practical - if she was living in an African country - as opposed to being a tourist.

Question: re Kente cloth. What significance does the word Kente mean? Is it the design or style or the cloth, or describe the purpose, or a spiritual association?
.
quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
I'm thinking it might be more appropriate - comfortable and practical - if she was living in an African country - as opposed to being a tourist.


I'm thinking that unless she has a more direct ancestral tie... or is somehow very close and accepted as a token countrywoman...many would deem it offensive...

quote:


Question: re Kente cloth. What significance does the word Kente mean? Is it the design or style or the cloth, or describe the purpose, or a spiritual association?
.


very protracted google search:

Historically, kente was the cloth of kings. The king (asantehene) controlled the use and production of kente--whether for his household, officials or political allies. Over time, the use of kente became more widespread. Unlike the royal family, however, an individual who owns kente today most likely owns one cloth that is worn on multiple occasions.

Kente is comparable to an evening gown or tuxedo in Western cultures. When kente is proudly worn or used on ceremonial occasions, it brings honor and prestige to the proceedings



However, because in America many Black people have in the past worn Kente cloth to show their solidarity to Africa and rejection of Western culture's hold over their psyche... because white women are anathema to this... psychologically to many who value their culture... she would represent a slap to the emotional and dignified pride it would bring to them as they move closer to a connection to and experience of a heritage stolen from them by her people...

of course I could be wrong... it could be reduced to any old pretty cloth for just anybody to wear if they want to look cute...
quote:
I'm thinking it might be more appropriate - comfortable and practical - if she was living in an African country - as opposed to being a tourist.


Appropriate? By immitating something to which culture she doesn't belong to? Here in Bavaria you realize tourists immediately: By wearing Bavarian stuff (especially in the city)
(And think about her color of the skin)

I don't get your point
and another question to you firefly: You live in Australia. What do you wear then as an European? Australia is also not a white country.
No, it is not wrong for a White person to dress in African attire. Most Black people don't wear African clothes themselves, so why should they care about who wears African attire?
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quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
I'm thinking it might be more appropriate - comfortable and practical - if she was living in an African country - as opposed to being a tourist.


I'm thinking that unless she has a more direct ancestral tie... or is somehow very close and accepted as a token countrywoman...many would deem it offensive...

quote:


Question: re Kente cloth. What significance does the word Kente mean? Is it the design or style or the cloth, or describe the purpose, or a spiritual association?
.


very protracted google search:

Historically, kente was the cloth of kings. The king (asantehene) controlled the use and production of kente--whether for his household, officials or political allies. Over time, the use of kente became more widespread. Unlike the royal family, however, an individual who owns kente today most likely owns one cloth that is worn on multiple occasions.

Kente is comparable to an evening gown or tuxedo in Western cultures. When kente is proudly worn or used on ceremonial occasions, it brings honor and prestige to the proceedings



However, because in America many Black people have in the past worn Kente cloth to show their solidarity to Africa and rejection of Western culture's hold over their psyche... because white women are anathema to this... psychologically to many who value their culture... she would represent a slap to the emotional and dignified pride it would bring to them as they move closer to a connection to and experience of a heritage stolen from them by her people...

of course I could be wrong... it could be reduced to any old pretty cloth for just anybody to wear if they want to look cute...


thank you Khalliqa on several points and especially for being informative rather than reactionary.

I was curious about the Kente cloth for several reasons and you've cleared that up. Can I ask also is the textile design and pattern of Kente particular to certain regions or African countries? I see a so-called Kente cloth 'advertised' as part of the elements of celebrating Kwanzaa celebrations and these appear to be similar in design. Are the colours of Kente cloth also significant?

quote:
However, because in America many Black people have in the past worn Kente cloth to show their solidarity to Africa and rejection of Western culture's hold over their psyche... because white women are anathema to this... psychologically to many who value their culture... she would represent a slap to the emotional and dignified pride it would bring to them as they move closer to a connection to and experience of a heritage stolen from them by her people...


Also thanks for your honest and direct answer - by someone who knows - appreciated.
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quote:
Originally posted by listener:
quote:
I'm thinking it might be more appropriate - comfortable and practical - if she was living in an African country - as opposed to being a tourist.


Appropriate? By immitating something to which culture she doesn't belong to? Here in Bavaria you realize tourists immediately: By wearing Bavarian stuff (especially in the city)
(And think about her color of the skin)

I don't get your point


There are no Bavarians with dreads?
More appropriate for a white woman wearing African clothes and dreads in Africa THAN IN AMERICA or AUSTRALIA. Especially in the city.

What does your comment "And think about her color of the skin" actually mean? And is this still in reference to Bavaria?

More practical and comfortable and appropriate [to the surroundings] than wearing a tailored white suit western suit while renovating school buildings in 40+ Celcius heat in Ghana or Sudan.

So if I was say volunteering in Ghana for more than 6 months away from an urban centre, I would consider wearing the clothing style or doing my hair (which is mid-length) in braids as a practicality but avoid wearing clothes in the local style but in a simple fabric. And if it upset people I'd improvise to suit their traditions and sensitivities - by asking them. In remote areas there aren't facilities to wash, shampoo, style and blow-dry hair - braiding would be more practical, I imagine.

But as to me personally ever wearing African clothing (beyond jewellery or fashion accessories) in downtown or in a Western country, personally, no way, coz I'd think it was a dumb-ass idea for me to do so!

It's always better (for me or anyone else) not to assume anything though. My friend sat down next to a white woman at a concert (in the US) recently who was dressed in African clothing - sans hair braid/dreads. They started chatting and he asked her about her clothing. She said that she had only just found out recently that she had African American ancestry. She took pride in this new information and started wearing African clothes.
So in that instance... does anyone consider that insulting, or 'wrong'?
.
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by listener:
and another question to you firefly: You live in Australia. What do you wear then as an European? Australia is also not a white country.


What do I as a European wear in, your term, "European Austalia"?
Chinese made clothing in a Western style or Asian style. Your point?

Urban and country Indigenous Australians wear Western style clothing. In remote areas they wear less clothing.
Australia IS a white country - with a black history. Europeans in this country are in effect "standing on solid rock, standing on sacred ground" of Indigenous people and their ancestors after stealing it from them.

I say Australia is a white country because, sadly, Australia's currenlty indigenous black population is around 2.4% of roughly 24 million total pop. I think I can safely guess that Austalia has a more ethnically diverse culture and population than Bavaria.

I ask about the religious/spiritual significance - rather than presuming to know about it. The other reason for me to ask is to find out from people who know if it is offensive.

Also, most contemporary clothing is designed to accommodate the seasons and climate of a country, and also the culture, which affects the 'cut', style (modesty), silhouette and actually textile type itself. Silk? Flowing? Ease of movement?

Although it does snow here Australia's climate doesn't reach the extreme cold of say Europe. So winter clothing (and winter itself) here would be considered more light weight and mild and so is appropriate to our milder climate.
.
btw: listener, I'm sure there are lot of black people in America - maybe even in Bavaria - who wear conscious black clothes who aren't. And people - of all cultures - with dreadlocks who aren't Rastafari.

One thing... I appreciate reading your opinions but no matter how conscious you are, or consider yourself, don't fool yourself that you are black. Like me, you are of European descent. Both of us can listen, learn and try to understand, but we can never look through a black lens or walk in black shoes. We will never feel or experience being black in a predominantly white world. Whether I argue or disagree or post contrary comments that antagonize (not intentionally) anyone on this site - it's ultimately to discover our differences. You are welcome to your opinion but you can not answer FOR a black person, which IMHO you would be mindful to be careful to avoid doing, or your 'consciousness' will become meaningless.
Peace.
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quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:


thank you Khalliqa on several points and especially for being informative rather than reactionary.


Every response is a reaction...

and you have the gaul to assess how appropriately I address your insultingly condescending responses?

Your disrespect is so embedded it has fogged your sensitivity?

You are a white woman... I have no obligation to educate you properly when you are inquiring about how to properly robe yourself in the regal attire of my ancestors...

don't get it twisted...

quote:
I was curious about the Kente cloth for several reasons and you've cleared that up. Can I ask also is the textile design and pattern of Kente particular to certain regions or African countries? I see a so-called Kente cloth 'advertised' as part of the elements of celebrating Kwanzaa celebrations and these appear to be similar in design. Are the colours of Kente cloth also significant?


try a protracted google search...

quote:
Also thanks for your honest and direct answer - by someone who knows - appreciated.


every answer I give is direct.... I will decide at which time I will give more information....

not everyone is prepared for or can handle the anger or emotion or negative responses from another... I am not a robot and will not speak as such and not everyone that asks a question deserves to be taught... sometimes the question itself is wrapped in disrespect....

only will that person know how offensive they are when you not educate with words that are soothing to their ear... but a response that lets them know that they are out of bounds...

Every person on this board can read, write and do research... many of the "questions" require little more in the way of a two or three minute search.... and a few thereafter if the person is REALLY as passionate and curious as they say they are.. information is readily available


I do not come on boards to educate.... if that was my mission then my approach would be entirely different... message boards, for me, are not a place where I go prepared to write essays backed by research... this is for those who are so comfortable with this that even in their regular dialogue they have a hard time with simply a person's opinion, experience and knowledge that demand that "evidence" or validation from another....

fine... this is okay for specific points of clarity within dialogue... but not all the time...

and when someone is rude... sometimes the best "information" is a negative reaction... whether they "desire" to see this or not...

Plus, there are plenty of other persons on this board that are not so stingy with opening their house to the descendants of those who robbed and raped their ancestors in their house... as long as you ask nice and are sincere... they'll even call you "sister".... (funny... its our openness like this, that got us in trouble from jump)... so there's balance for your "need" to know us better here...



you may be reaaaal curious about the furniture in my house... but just because you, a stranger, refuse to check out the latest magazine its featured in... and instead stand at my door criticizing me because I do... or don't... adequately describe why I chose what I chose... the significance of it... the scholar's assessment of it... etc... etc... and whine because I slam the door...

that's on you... there is multiple information in that message.... and if what you come away with leads you to dislike the carrier of the message...

then just know that you have solidly entered mutual territory...
of course there is google... and wikipedia.org and asking first hand and 2nd hand.

quote:
"Your disrespect is so embedded it has fogged your sensitivity?"


Really. Well that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

quote:
"I will decide at which time I will give more information...."


don't bother.

quote:
"you may be reaaaal curious about the furniture in my house... but just because you, a stranger, refuse to check out the latest magazine its featured in... and instead stand at my door criticizing me because I do... or don't... adequately describe why I chose what I chose... the significance of it... the scholar's assessment of it... etc... etc... and whine because I slam the door..."


in your dreams.

quote:
then just know that you have solidly entered mutual territory...


you sign off Peace. lol laugh
quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:

Really. Well that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

don't bother.

in your dreams.



More information:

quote:
"Your disrespect is so embedded it has fogged your sensitivity?"



I wrote this as a question...

It should be a declarative statement...

Your disrespect is so embedded it has fogged your sensitivity
quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
Absolutism and Peace can coexist? I don't think so.


I do not seek peace with you....

it happens intermittently and unexpectedly but not determinantly...
Khalliqa sister, I don't see what you seemed to have gotten all upset about. Confused I sensed no disrespect coming from firefly at all, but I will re-read the post.
"thank you Khalliqa on several points and especially for being informative rather than reactionary." originally posted by firefly

I'm guessing this is what set you off Khalliqa or this, "Also thanks for your honest and direct answer - by someone who knows - appreciated." originally posted by firefly

With these statements I guess i would assume that she was implying that you often respond in a reactionary, non-direct way to her posts, which i will have to agree with. I think you are naturally suspicious of white people in general and question their motives from jump (not that this is unwarranted to a point) and this makes you respond to firefly in a way that you may not to others.You have made it clear that you question her motives of being on the site and i think you read into things sometimes that aren't there.

firefly-you must have known that she would take your statements negatively?
If she is in Africa wearing the clothing and dreads it's good. I agree with Rowe. Blacks in the West barley wear African clothing. Most of style is what ever is consider western attire. Or our own style which is usually urban hip hop. I'm glad she is willing to wear the national clothing when in Africa. Because many times tourist from America or Europe don't do that. They stick out a little too much in other countries. I have no problem with her wearing the clothing. I notice that whites that do wear clothign of other cultures. They know a whole lot about that culture and it's people. They have great respect and pride of the country. I would be offend if that person didn't know nothing about the clothing they were wearing. When you ask them.
quote:
Originally posted by msprettygirl:
You have made it clear that you question her motives of being on the site

firefly-you must have known that she would take your statements negatively?


No... I do not trust white people... This is not new.... or a mystery... to anyone on this site...

You will not catch me going out of my way to make them feel comfortable....
Firefly:
To be honest, you show a lot of disrespect. Everybody can make mistakes (and I already did them here on this board), but everybody should educate oneself and learn out of the mistakes.
Its only my (white) opinion:
The question was: "Should BLACK women feel strange when they view a white woman dressing in Kente cloth, wearing native african headdresses, and braids?"

There was no question what a white would think about it. But YOU gave an quite arrogant point of view. Like we have done it since the first European has entered Africa.

>What does your comment "And think about her color of the skin" actually mean?

It referred to the white skincolor of the white woman wearing African clothing. And this is not appropriate. The ancestry and culture is different. For me it demonstrates disrespect. The only exeption I accept is, if a white was raised within that community, really living WITH them and grown up in this culture. But I don't think that this happens very often. Whites tend to isolate themselves.


>More practical and comfortable and appropriate [to the surroundings] than wearing a tailored white suit western suit while renovating school buildings in 40+ Celcius heat in Ghana or Sudan.

And this reason is just stupid and shows your white attitude. The so-good white renovating schools (this is the hidden message of this answer).
I work in a glasshouse. In summer it's up to 50+ Celsius. I am still alive in my European clothing.

It isn't about what is comfortable for YOU or any white, it is about respect toward different cultures.

>You are welcome to your opinion but you can not answer FOR a black person, which IMHO you would be mindful to be careful to avoid doing, or your 'consciousness' will become meaningless.

I didn't answer for a black person, my answers comes from me as an European who is p*ssed off that white supremacy and of whites who tell ME how I should behave on an African American board. THIS can only tell me the African American members of this board. And if I am asked to leave or to be quiet to certain topics, I won't discuss. I just respect. Because I am only a guest on that board, it's not about "ultimately to discover our differences"
quote:
Originally posted by listener:
Firefly:
To be honest, you show a lot of disrespect. Everybody can make mistakes (and I already did them here on this board), but everybody should educate oneself and learn out of the mistakes.
Its only my (white) opinion:
The question was: "Should BLACK women feel strange when they view a white woman dressing in Kente cloth, wearing native african headdresses, and braids?"

There was no question what a white would think about it. But YOU gave an quite arrogant point of view. Like we have done it since the first European has entered Africa.

>What does your comment "And think about her color of the skin" actually mean?

It referred to the white skincolor of the white woman wearing African clothing. And this is not appropriate. The ancestry and culture is different. For me it demonstrates disrespect. The only exeption I accept is, if a white was raised within that community, really living WITH them and grown up in this culture. But I don't think that this happens very often. Whites tend to isolate themselves.


>More practical and comfortable and appropriate [to the surroundings] than wearing a tailored white suit western suit while renovating school buildings in 40+ Celcius heat in Ghana or Sudan.

And this reason is just stupid and shows your white attitude. The so-good white renovating schools (this is the hidden message of this answer).
I work in a glasshouse. In summer it's up to 50+ Celsius. I am still alive in my European clothing.

It isn't about what is comfortable for YOU or any white, it is about respect toward different cultures.

>You are welcome to your opinion but you can not answer FOR a black person, which IMHO you would be mindful to be careful to avoid doing, or your 'consciousness' will become meaningless.

I didn't answer for a black person, my answers comes from me as an European who is p*ssed off that white supremacy and of whites who tell ME how I should behave on an African American board. THIS can only tell me the African American members of this board. And if I am asked to leave or to be quiet to certain topics, I won't discuss. I just respect. Because I am only a guest on that board, it's not about "ultimately to discover our differences"



I retract this statement:
You will not catch me going out of my way to make them feel comfortable....


Your humility is refreshing....
I don't see why it's my place to feel strange, but I could see why someone else might feel weird if I wore their garb.

The question isn't for me to answer. About the kente cloth.

In that case, it's a Ghanian who should be asked if they feel strange about their clothes being appropriated.

Or a Rasta or Celt or other loc'ed people asked about their hair.

And the ethnic groups the headdresses represent should be asked their opinions on those.

But, just because I'm Black does not mean that I can claim ownership over the garb and hair of others who happen to share my skin color.

Should I wear Kente cloth? I might be Black, but I don't know the significance of it to the people who have rightful ownership to it. The people who were raised with the pattern and know the culture of it. they have the right to judge.

For me to say, I'm Black so it's mine too is laughable.

And can be seen as an example of cultural appropriation in its own right.

I think I can comment on braids, though.

I don't feel strange when White people wear canerows and whatnot.

I just think it looks better on me. Wink
quote:
"thank you Khalliqa on several points and especially for being informative rather than reactionary." originally posted by firefly

I'm guessing this is what set you off Khalliqa or this, "Also thanks for your honest and direct answer - by someone who knows - appreciated." originally posted by firefly


Must have known? No I didn't. I was sincerely saying thank you for what I (mistakenly) thought was an honest (direct) answer from her.

Every day is a new day for me and every exchange is based on that exchange, not past baggage or assumptions.

I was stunned that she would respond without malice at all - but with information, keeping in mind how much she despises with me.

No disrespect or antagonism was intended nor any malice. And I respect everyone until they give me a reason not to.

However, I do find it hard to 'appreciate' anyone - male or female - who possesses such an egotistical personality and behavior. So I try to ignore it.
But it's damn near impossible to respect someone who is so hating, suspicious and duplicitous on such a regular basis and such venom in their heart and enjoys it. Such a waste of intellect and self-professed creativity. And I'm not the only one she plays duplicitous games with.

Tell me why I should care what anyone with those 'credentials' says or thinks. It's her game and she revels in it.
quote:
listener: >What does your comment "And think about her color of the skin" actually mean?

It referred to the white skincolor of the white woman wearing African clothing. And this is not appropriate.


I don't have time to respond to the rest of your thread now but I will comment on this statement.
I find this full of assumptions. So you would judge a woman based on skin colour without knowing either whether she does infact have ancestry not apparent in the tone of her skin, and, that skin tone matters when it comes to clothing? You base consciousness on appearances and skin colour?
How many assumptions do you make on a daily basis.

You're also assuming that saracen was only referring to skin colour - not culturally - maybe he was, maybe not. But you seem to be quite fixated on skin colour.
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace..

Should black women feel strange when they view a white woman dressing in Kente cloth, wearing native african headdresses, and braids?


Just askin...



Kai


I personally don't appreciate it. I think it is disrespectful.

I think Indian clothes are beautiful. I know about the culture. I would still feel strange and disrespectful wearing them because I am not Indian.

Of course it isn't illegal, and people do as they wish, but to me Europeans who appropriate the cothes and other cultural traditions of the oppressed and exploited peoples of the earth are being disrespectful.
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quote:
ut, just because I'm Black does not mean that I can claim ownership over the garb and hair of others who happen to share my skin color.

Should I wear Kente cloth? I might be Black, but I don't know the significance of it to the people who have rightful ownership to it. The people who were raised with the pattern and know the culture of it. they have the right to judge.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
quote:
ut, just because I'm Black does not mean that I can claim ownership over the garb and hair of others who happen to share my skin color.

Should I wear Kente cloth? I might be Black, but I don't know the significance of it to the people who have rightful ownership to it. The people who were raised with the pattern and know the culture of it. they have the right to judge.



whats wrong with a african in america wearing traditional african garb?? You may not know exactly where you came from (although there are dna test) your ancestry give you that right. Anyway whats wrong with anyone one who want to wear african clothing wearing it? We wear western clothing all the time IE suits, so its cool for us to wear European clothing but you feel strange wearing traditional african garb? mind boggling
Who said I'd feel strange about wearing it?

If only you could see what I have on right now.

I'm currently debating loc'ing. And if I add them, I'll be as much a appropriater as a White woman who does the same.

To judge is what I said belongs to the Ghanians in regards to the kente cloth.

To the loc'd peoples in regards to locs.

Quite frankly, I couldn't care less if some American, White or Black, said it was okay to wear some African headdress. Which ethnic group does that headdress come from? It is members of that group whose opinion carries water. It is them to ask if it is disrespectful to wear it as a fashion statement, if we can wear it to represent something other than what it represents to them, if we have a place wearing it or not for any reason.

But it's not my place to make a judgement call about another culture's stuff in those ways.

I do not think I have ownership over everything Black just because I'm Black.

The ancestry argument does not sway me.

Even if I took a DNA test and it told me which tribal group I'm from, I'd feel the same in regards to the African stuff. Let's say that it said that I'm
Mende. Should my say carry weight in regards to their cultural effects?

I don't think so.

I might be technically of the same blood, but I'm not a member of the culture. I don't know what their garb represents to the people. I don't know if my opinion would go against their cultural beliefs, either.

So, my say is irrelevant if someone really wants to know if it's disrespectful or not to wear the Mende's stuff.

And consider that my, like a good many Afro-Diasporians', ancestry goes many places. I'm sure it'd sound weird to you if I told someone that a few of my foreparents were Indian, so I give you permission to wear anything Asian. Or that I have the right to wear anything Asian but your doing so is disrespectful just because my foreparents where Indian and yours weren't.

I wouldn't assume that blood alone gives me a right.

And I think it's silly for me to believe that I can speak for all of the peoples whose blood runs through me.

That would be disrepectful.
In regards to the stuff I normally wear?

I was raised with it. I know the cultural significance of it.

I don't feel out of place telling someone what their wearing blue jeans and hoodies means to my culture.

I can't do the same for a bindi.

Regardless of my DNA.
quote:
I retract this statement:
You will not catch me going out of my way to make them feel comfortable....


Your humility is refreshing....

Peace,
Khalliqa



Thank you
@ Firefly: You should print this thread and re-read it in one or two weeks to realize the nonsense you write.
Don't just quote it, start living it: open your mind and your heart
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace..

Should black women feel strange when they view a white woman dressing in Kente cloth, wearing native african headdresses, and braids?


Just askin...



Kai


how else is she going to show the world she's down with the brothers?? Confused tfro
Good thinking ZAKAR. Most of us wear Blue Jeans and a T-shirt on a daily bases. It's called the American look. Which was popularize by Western Europeans thur high fashion magazines. No on this topic see it that way. I think we need to take a look at ourselfs when we buy those Levis at the mall.
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace..

Should black women feel strange when they view a white woman dressing in Kente cloth, wearing native african headdresses, and braids?


Just askin...



Kai


how else is she going to show the world she's down with the brothers?? Confused tfro


rofl...


this about sums it up for me...

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