Is Christmas Christian?

Christmas is NOT christian. It is only ignorant christians who like to impose their will on God who celebrate it. Any TRUE christian with a decent knowledge of the Bible would know how dangerous it is to do things in the name of God when he God had not asked for it - it is called PRESUMPTUOUSNESS. In the Bible book of Proverbs, God shows his contempt for presumptuous ones so you can imagine his feeling for these christians who intead of obeying and celebrating the only thing Christ asked i.e. the last Supper, they ignore it and put in place WHAT HE NEVER ASKED FOR.

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Um, gentlemen?

I think your ranting is a little misplaced. Christmas includes many things that are distracting, even dangerous, to worship at that time of year, but to argue against Christmas entirely does not address the real issues that we do better to oppose.

What is Christmas about? I wonder why neither one of you asked that question. Since it is the celebration of Christ's birth, I really do not see the reason for your vitriol poured out upon this time of happiness and fun and joy. If it gets people into church where they can hear the gospel account of the Son of God, then I think it's a good thing.

The question of where it comes from is irrelevant. So what if the Church decided to Christianize a pagan holiday? To change, to transform a pagan holiday into a Christian one, to turn people's minds to Christ is not a bad thing.

I celebrate the holiday because that is when we have decided to deliberately remind people of the birth of Jesus. It wouldn't matter really when we chose to do that. Since the Bible never says what time of the year it was, it doesn't matter when we celebrate it. We do it in December, and that's OK with me.

Henry,

How is our celebrating Christmas "imposing our will on God"?

Do you wear clothing that Jesus did not wear? Did he ever mention zippers? Do you wear a cloak--which he did mention? Do you wear clothing made of a cotton/polyester blend (if so, then you have run afoul of Lev. 19:19)?

Do you use a computer, which Jesus never did and never talked about? How about fly? Watch TV? Listen to the radio? CD player?

Do you celebrate the Year of Jubilee? How about the full moons?

If you do not do these things and many more--you can look them up in the Torah--then I wouldn't be too quick to judge others for the sin of presumptuousness. If doing "what he never asked for" is presumptuous, then what is not doing what he did ask for?

And your last statement is a real surprise--you assume that all Christians who celebrate Christmas do not celebrate the Last Supper. Just where did you get that idea? I know many Christians who celebrate both, so why do you assume and state that they--we--do not?

Melesi

There are two types of people who claim to worship God, Children of the Devil and true children of God. What differentiates these two is one group finds out the will of God and obeys, these ones are the TRUE Christians- these are the ones on the narrow path of life. The other group behaves like you – always looking for an excuse to do their own thing and claim they are doing the will of God. I say this because from reading previous posts there is this constant leaning on your part to do and support anything in the name of Christianity whether it can be found in the Bible or not. That behaviour my friend according to the Bibles is how one identifies children of the Devil. In case you do not know this majority of Christians are actually children of the devil and you can tell them by their works of disobedience of the Bible.

If you care to study the Bible as a true Christian should do you would have noticed people were celebrating birthdays in the time of Jesus because John the Baptist lost his life because of Herod's birthday. Christmas is the celebration of Jesus birthday. If a Christian knows that Jesus knew about birthdays and did not celebrate it or ask any of his followers to observe it but rather SPECIFICALLY asked them to celebrate the last supper, you have to ask yourself, have you EVER observed the last supper, do you know which day it falls on? I have a feeling the answers to these questions is nay. If so, Melesi you do your fathers will which is to always look for excuses to be disobedient and I will do my fathers will which is to find out what he says in the Bible and OBEY.

According to the Bible children of God from the prophets to Jesus did not celebrate birthdays even though they knew the Gentiles celebrated it and so as Christmas is supposedly observing Jesus' birthday, this is unscriptural and imposing on God and only children of the Devil masquerading as Christians would do this.

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Christians citing the old testament for guidance? I thought Christ was all about release from the old convenant.

Shouldn't the conversation on Christianity be about what Christ said and did.

Some say the New Testament begins with Acts. They go on to say that the first four books of what we call the New Testament are actually (no pun intended) the last four books of the Old Testament.

There is no "Christmas" in the Old Testament.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

Henry,

Can you spell "pharisee"?

Jim,

"Release from the old covenant"? Well, yes and no; it depends on what you mean. The old covenant has both the religious/ritualistic demands and moral demands in it. While the religious demands have been superseded by Christ, the moral demands have not. We don't have to keep Succoth, say, nor do we have to sacrifice goats on the Temple altar nor be circumcised. However, we do have to live according to the will of God and love him with all our heart and love our neighbor as ourselves, a requirement which is the center and reason of all the OT commands.

The OT is the account of what God did for his people Israel, and therefore shows the character of God. As a result, it is a valuable resource for figuring out what we are supposed to do and be because it shows us what God is like and what he requires of us and why he does that. So a Christian will mine the OT for its wisdom and righteousness, and work to incorporate that righteousness into his own life.

While ther is no Christmas in the Bible, one of my poionts to Henry is that we do what we did not do before, and it is not necessarily evil or disobedient that we do so. As Jesus tried so hard to tell and show us repeatedly, if we can do whatever it is we do out of love and for his glory, then there's nothing wrong with doing it.

Christmas often is done out of love for one another and to God's glory, for when we use that time to remind people everywhere that Jesus was actually born and that he was born to be our Savior, then we are speaking and living to God's glory.

The Bible is given to us to change our minds and show us the way to live, not to be a list of what we must do and whatever it does not say we cannot do. It is not the final say on everything, for it is not the only Word of God that exists. It is the Word of God written, but John goes to grteat pains to remind us that the Word of God lives and reigns with his Father, and he is the final authority. Thus, with the account of God's acts of many centuries in hand, and with prayer and with love for God and for his creation (which includes every person you meet), we learn what kinds of things God expects of us and how we obey him today in our world. We should not make of the New Testament an Old Testament world. The NT warns us against going back to reliance on circumcision (which is eponymous for all things ritualistic) and instead living the life that Jesus gives us to live. Paul says, in effect, that if we are already Jews, then we should be the best Jews in the world, but if we are not Jews then we should not seek to become Jews. Instaed, we should rejoice in God's salvation and live for him and his son with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength.

And we can do that even while celebrating Christmas.

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Originally posted by Melesi:
Henry,

Can you spell "pharisee"?

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Pharisee I forgot about them for the moment, thanks for bringing them up, they are the very people I need to hammer home my point?

During Jesus' time they were the main protagonists that opposed Jesus and called for his death. See that is spelling Pharisee, easy! How about defining who they were? That is trickier.

The Pharisee were a group who put traditions before the word of God. Guess what, Christmas is the main tradition of modern Christendom. Just like how the Pharisees saw their traditions more important than obeying God so modern day Christendom puts their traditions like Christmas above actually obeying God's word the Bible.

This is what Jesus said regarding the hypocrites of his day.

Matt 15: Then there come to Jesus from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying, 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 And he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God said, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, He that speaketh evil of father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But ye say, whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, That wherewith thou mightest have been profited by me is given to God; 6 he shall not honor his father. And ye have made void the word of God because of your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people honoreth me with their lips; But their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.

Let me break it up to help you understand how this clearly applies to your behavior

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Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?

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The key word here is transgress. This is how the Oxford English dictionary defines transgress, {Transgress = go beyond the limits set by (a moral principle, standard, law, etc.)

Wow that describes your behaviour to the letter. So if we put that back in what Jesus said, he is saying that you Melesi are a transgressor of the direct commands of God because you know what is in the Bible but you chose to ignore it by doing your own thing. In this context, Melesi you are a Pharisee.

Jesus goes on to say;

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And ye have made void the word of God because of your tradition.

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This aptly describes your post as you seek to justify upholding the tradition of Christmas you put yourself above what God says and makes the word of God void.

Finally Jesus concludes;

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This people honoreth me with their lips; But their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.

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Well what can I say, no one can put it better than the Master himself. Just in case you missed the point, he is saying if you continue to teach YOUR precepts which is man made doctrines, the master says you are wasting your time if you think he accepts you as one of his TRUE followers.


All scripture quoted is from the American Standard Version

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Henry,

You are almost amusing.

In fact, the Pharisees acted as you do: rigid, self-righteous, adhering to the letter of the law without understanding its spirit and purpose.
They reason that they wanted Jesus' death is because they saw him as breaking the commandments. They concentrated on the minor issues, the externals--like the disciples not washing before they ate--and did not pay attention to the reason for the Law: love for others and for God. So they criticised those who did not wash, but paid no attention to the hearts of those who did not wash.

Just so, you are quick to judge--as they were--and call "children of the devil" those who do not do as you do.

Paul dealt with this issue when speaking about circumcision ("Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin") ("No one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law") and eating meat sacrificed to idols.

Just because someone does something different doesn't mean that he's doing it wrong.

Henry, Jesus died for us out of love. It would be nice if you showed some of that love.

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Originally posted by Melesi:
Henry, Jesus died for us out of love. It would be nice if you showed some of that love.

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Huh? You don't even know me and you are judging my nature.

I see you are taking the topic somewhere else, i.e. circumcision. Sorry I like to focus, the topic is about a modern Christian tradition that you support, lets talk about that and lets see how you can ever justify the celebration of Christmas using the Bible. What you are dragging into the picture is to do with Jewish laws which is not relevant to the topic.

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henry,

Read what I write, OK? I said "showed," not "had." It has nothing to say about your "nature," only about what you have said here. I did not say that you do not have love, only that you have not been showing any.

And you haven't.

In fact, you've been so interested in attacking on an inconsequential issue that you hve refused to address half of what I have said to you. You have appeared so impatient to justify your position that you have not taken the time to respect the fact that I have taken time with you and thought seriously about what you have said. I have answered you seriously because while I disagree with you I have so far respected that you have said it and obviously feel deeply about it.

That can change if you continue as you have been doing.

You have misunderstood what I have written and done it so consistently that I am beginning to suspect that it is deliberate, that you refuse to engage this topic seriously.

"Circumcision"? I'm not talking about circumcision. I gave you the quote from Romans that illustrated what I meant by bringing it up, and if you were interested in understanding what I meant, you could have used a concordance to find the quote or you could even have asked me what I meant by it. You didn't of course. You would rather assume that you know and thus get it wrong. By "circumcision" Paul meant--and I was borrowing his meaning--Jewishness and Law-keeping as the way of salvation. You are approaching the topic of Christmas the same way that the ancient Jews approached the topic of the Law, its place and its purpose. That's part of the issue that I have been addressing, and thus it is "on topic."

Sorry that you can't recognize a relevant reference when you see one, but that's not my fault.

You are using as an argument that anything that Jesus did not tell us to do we cannot do. He did not tell us to celebrate Christmas, therefore we should not do so. It's only a "tradition," and as such, is against the will of God.

That's why I brought up the issue of computers. You use one, but Jesus did not tell you to do so. You drive a car, but Jesus did not tell you to do so. You go to the polls to elect representatives in government, but Jesus did not tell you to do so, even though Greek and Roman elections were known in the not-so-distant past.

By the way, do you wear cotton/polyester blends? Leviticus 19:19 says that you should not. Do you? Do you trim your beard, or even cut it off? That's against Leviticus, too.

You see, you follow traditions as well. My point is that that's perfectly OK to do as long as it does not cast a shadow on the name of God. You can do these things and not disobey God, for he did not give us his Son to give us another list of ritual things to do and not do. I brought up the meat sacrificed to idols because Paul addresses this issue right there. He said that it doesn't matter if we do that because there's no such thing as an idol-god except in our minds. So if you know that, you are free to eat that meat. Just don't do it so that a brother who still thinks that idols are real will not beled into sin ("Well, if he eats meat sacrificed to idols, then I guess I should, too, just to stay on the safe side of the god"). The point is not the meat nor even the idol. It's the spiritual state of the brother.

What yo are doing is opposite of that. You're saying that here is another law that we have to keep or we are spiritualy doomed. Nope. That's phariseeism, that's becoming bound to a different law, only instead of it being a law that God gave, it's one that henry gave.

That's why I find it hard to believe that your law is a good one. Henry is not God.

We are free in Christ to follow him and not some made-up law that someone has decided, not Biblically, but theologically, not from what is in the Bible, but from what is not. That's the wrong reason.

I think I have said everything needed to be said on the subject and I am done. Anyone reading this post would clearly see I have answered the question raised about Christmas and the answers have all come from the Bible.

As I said to you earlier, right from the beginning in the garden of Eden there has been people who know what God says and chose to do their own thing, so your stand is no great surprise. King Saul of Israel may have been thinking like you when he overstepped the mark that brought God's wrath upon him and his family. I am sure if I take it upon myself to do things in your name which you have not asked for you will be very angry indeed and call me all sorts of names. God is no different. The Bible makes it clear that the Jews UNDER HIS DIRECTION never celebrated birthdays. At the same time the Bible pointed out the people who celebrated birthdays were the Gentiles who did not know God. Can you see the parallel? That is, the Bible or God knew about birthdays because the Bible talked about it, what is significant and you continue to miss this point is that whenever birthdays are mentioned, it is associated with enemies of God.

If after knowing all these and knowing that Jesus was here and knew about these things and DID NOT ONCE PARTAKE IN IT, you on the other hand think you know better and set up Christmas to celebrate his birthday, wow! Good luck to you in your misrepresentation of God's word, I'm sure he is very pleased with you

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Henry,

Never any birthdays? You have no idea that that is true. All you really know is that none are mentioned, but then there are a lot of things that are not mentioned--the end of the Gospel of John says so, there are 24 years between Genesis 12 and 15, and the Bible never sets out to tell everything that happened in any one time or stretch of time, so you cannot say that because the Bible does not mention it it did not happen. According to that standard, there was no China or Madagascar or Russia or America or Congo or Australia or Zambia during the time of the Bible, either because they are not mentioned.

So what if there are things that Jesus is not reported as doing? Does that mean that every time you play a game you break the laws of God? Jesus is not recorded as having ever played a game, but you have done so.

By your standard, then, you are a child of the devil.

You see where self-righteousness gets you?

So your argument does not stand. If birthdays were not generally celebrated, it wasn't because God did not want them to be--he never forbids them, for example--but because they weren't considered important. It is a cultural matter, not a Biblical or spiritual one.

You're importing culture into your concept of the Bible.

I notice that you have yet to address the issue of your computer and car and cotton/polyester blends, though I've mentioned it twice.

You've also not acknowledged that you have misunderstood me a time or two and misrepresented me in so doing. Not able to admit your mistakes means quite a lot when proclaiming that you follow God.

Humility a little difficult for you?

Then pardon me if I do not find your arguments convincing, but neither are you: "These people honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me."

Sorry about that, henry, but it is by your choice.

Oh, yes, henry--

You would do well I think to meditate on the book of Galatians and on the first eight chapters of Romans. They contradict almost everything you have said.

You are really reaching by bringing up all sorts of things into this topic, I can only put it down to your desperation. I am finding it hard to follow some of the points you dredge up. Here are a few examples.

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Never any birthdays?

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You see I don't know what you are talking about here. I said to you that Birthdays are mentioned in the Bible and I can show you where they are mentioned. Anytime they were mentioned the association was to do with enemies of God. Do you think that is deliberate or coincidence? I will leave that for you to work out.

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According to that standard, there was no China or Madagascar or Russia or America or Congo or Australia or Zambia during the time of the Bible, either because they are not mentioned.

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Bizarre, very bizarre, what has the name of countries got to do with Christmas being the celebration of Christ's birth

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You see where self-righteousness gets you?

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Got me where? Just because I know the Bible more than you do does not mean I am being self-righteous. If you want to you can sit down and study it yourself so that next time you teach it the knowledge you impart would be accurate. Just in case you are wondering about how I tackle Bible conversations, I am using the same style as the Prophets and Jesus when I talk about the Bible, in case you have missed it check the Bible and you would see they preach in the same punchy style – they don't pull their punches, they go straight for the kill.

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You're importing culture into your concept of the Bible.

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Where? I thought I am using the Bible itself to back up my points. Don't tell me you are beginning to see things. Drink a little bit of water and it will calm your nerves.

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I notice that you have yet to address the issue of your computer and car and cotton/polyester blends, though I've mentioned it twice.

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Did it occur to you that I was being kind so I chose to ignore what I considered stupid comparisons. Look at it yourself if you can, we are talking about traditions and you are asking me the relevance with TOOLS people use. TRADTION not TOOLS is what we are talking about. Just like I ignore your points on Jewish laws because we are not talking about laws but we are talking about the tradition of Christmas.

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Humility a little difficult for you?

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Are you sure it's not the pot calling the kettle names. You have made it a point on this board to be patronizing to others about Bible matters when you clearly don't know it very much. What do you call that?

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You would do well I think to meditate on the book of Galatians and on the first eight chapters of Romans. They contradict almost everything you have said.

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Instead of making empty noises and accusations why don't you cite these Bible verses that contradict what I have said, I am sure you are eager and would love to bring me down a peg or two so I dare you, show me these verses.

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Oh by the way, if you notice I am quoting you and answering you point by point to let you know I read what you post so in future if I ignore something you said know there is a reason, I may just be being magnanimous.

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Or you don't have an answer for an an inconvenient fact. I know which is more probable.

Oh, good heavens, henry, you're being childishly unreasonable.

"Never any birthdays" is a direct reference to your statement that those who followed God in the Bible never celebrated any birthdays. If you can't figure out what you yourself have said, then it's no wonder you want to end a conversation. You can't even keep up on your own thinking.

About the countries--once again, you are delilberately playing the confused fool. Read the post. I said that by your own standard of saying that if it isn't in the Bible it didn't exist (birthdays among the righteous, again, just in case you forgot), then Madagascar didn't exist in the time of the Bible. It did, of course, which shows that just because it isn't mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean that it didn't exist. That goes for birthdays among the righteous, too. Lack of proof is not proof of lack.

I'm saying that your standard for deciding what is right to do and isn't right is flawed. It is narrow and inconsistently applied.

I'm not sure that you do in fact "know the Bible more than" I do. You know some of the words, but you do not know what they mean, for you cannot apply them. You've used them as clubs and not for encouraging.

Since you insist on playing the uncomprehending:

"Gets you" entangled in your inconsistencies.

The prophets did not go "straight for the kill." That's another misunderstanding that you have. Did they speak straight? Yes, usually. But they were human, too. Jeremiah quit being a prophet for a time, did you know that? He thought it was too hard--and it was a very hard job for him. But what was the point and goal of God's sending his people the prophets? To "Turn their hearts" back to him. You have not once exhibited a care for anyone's heart. You are not doing the prophet's part. You are in this thread only interested in whether someone celebrates Christmas or not, and in the process you have even assumed that I do not celebrate the Lord's Supper. It wasn't even important enough to you to pursue and to ask again. No, Christmas is your target as are all those who dare to celebrate it, and you will use the word of God as a weapon to beat others into submission by calling them children of the devil because they do not agree with you on this one area.

This is quite contrary to the Word of God that you say that you know.

Your superior attitude blinds you to the sin of pride, brother. And pride is extremely dangerous. "I know the Bible better than you do," your deliberate misunderstandings, your refusal to even try to see an argument from someone else's point of view, your refusal to consider the possibility that you may be wrong are all symptoms of the sin of pride, a very dangerous sin, indeed, and one that called down Jesus' stern warnings and even curses. Be careful of yourself.

Did it ever occur to me that you were being kind? No, it didn't because I do not expect you to step out of character. You have not been so far. Why start now?

What is the difference between a tradition and a tool? Length of time, that's all. Christmas is a tool for rememberng and celebrating his birth for which millions of people are grateful. The car is a now-traditional means of transportation (just tell someone that you do not have a car or a television and see how they react. Jesus speaks of none of these, yet you are willing to live traditionally in some areas while hypocritically telling others not to live in one. You are making the artificial distinction between the the tradtion and the tool, no matter how traditional the tool may be.

But let's take other traditions: Do you put your name at the end of a letter? That is a tradition that Jesus does not teach or talk about. In fact, the tradition of the ancient world was to put the writer's name at the beginning. But you do not do that, oh, child of the devil.

I suppose that you do not celebrate Thanksgiving, either? Or Fourth of July? Or Labor Day? Or Memorial Day? Or Martin Luther King Day (it is his birthday, after all)? Valentine's Day? Your mother's or wife's or girlfriend's birthday? Christians don't celebrate birthdays, you know because Jesus didn't speak of these, either.

Henry--A question just occurred to me: you're not a Jehovah's Witness, are you?

Do you eat with a fork? Jesus never did, nor did he tell us to. How about a napkin? These are traditional ways that we have of eating, and I'll wager that you do them. Do you sit at a table? Jesus reclined, just like everybody else (traditionally) did in his day. If you do not eat like that, you must be a child of the devil.

Look at what you said about my being "patronizing to others." Do you see how you avoided the subject and changed it by switching to an attack? Instead of looking at yourself you decided to deride and avoid answering. That's an indication that I was right. Pride answers just like that, and if it looks like a duck...

I don't think that I have been patronizing. Give me an example.

You "dare" me. How adult. How loving. How utterly Christian. If you know the Bible so well, why don't you just post something about those verses (you must have memorized them by now, anyway) and we'll discuss it? I did my part. It's time that you did yours.

Why do I get the feeling that you are not going to let this conversation arrive at a constructive goal?

I have listed some traditions, henry, and I know that you do some of them. Why must you stare at the mote in someone else's eye and ignore the log in your own?

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"Never any birthdays" is a direct reference to your statement that those who followed God in the Bible never celebrated any birthdays. If you can't figure out what you yourself have said, then it's no wonder you want to end a conversation. You can't even keep up on your own thinking.

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I stand by what I said. It's the way you put your arguments without cohesion and structure that I was referring to. As I said before because your arguments are allover the place I sometimes find it hard to follow some of the points you dredge up. You would not last one second in a debate or in a court of law the way you drag anything and everything into your arguments. If you speak English I understand and respond accordingly but if it started becoming gibberish I point out that you are not making sense.

In answer to the point let me repeat what I said earlier. No let me repeat it slowly maybe you can follow and comprehend. Here goes, "I s.a.i.d t.o y.o.u t.h.a.t B.i.r.t.h.d.a.y.s a.r.e m.e.n.t.i.o.n.e.d i.n t.h.e B.i.b.l.e a.n.d I c.a.n s.h.ow y.o.u w.h.e.r.e t.h.e.y a.r.e m.e.n.t.i.o.n.e.d. A.n.y t.i.me t.h.e.y w.e.r.e m.e.n.t.i.o.n.e.d t.h.e a.s.s.o.c.i.a.t.i.o.n w.a.s t.o d.o w.i.t.h e.n.e.m.i.e.s o.f G.o.d." This is the punchline I am putting it in bold letters as well as speaking slowly so that hopefully you get the point, "D.o y.o.u t.h.i.n.k t.h.a.t i.t i.s d.e.l.i.b.e.r.a.t.e o.r c.o.i.n.c.i.d.e.n.c.e? I w.i.l.l l.e.a.v.e t.h.a.t f.o.r y.o.u t.o w.o.rk o.u.t." I hope you get it this time and start to think for once in your life. Please use that grey matter between your ears it could save your life when the final trumpet blows.

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I'm not sure that you do in fact "know the Bible more than" I do. You know some of the words, but you do not know what they mean, for you cannot apply them. You've used them as clubs and not for encouraging.

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This is the second time your judgmental nature has shown it's face. No need for me to bring up the first one, you are doing fine so far, as a great man once said, "never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake," so carry on I am sure you would provide enough ammunition to bury you.

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The prophets did not go "straight for the kill." That's another misunderstanding that you have. Did they speak straight? Yes, usually.

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Dear me, I thought you understood simple English, straight for the kill means the same as someone who does not mince his words and speaks straight. In case you have not noticed I am preaching to you USING THE SAME STYLE. It might get you worked up to the point of blowing a gasket but that is exactly the point in this style of preaching, i.e. to arouse you so much that for the rest of your life you remember the Bible lesson that is herein being taught.

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No, Christmas is your target as are all those who dare to celebrate it, and you will use the word of God as a weapon to beat others into submission by calling them children of the devil because they do not agree with you on this one area.

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Incase you missed it which I suspected all along you had, the topic is about Christmas. Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birthday. Well my friend, it is unscriptural and you can wiggle and wallow all you want but you can not worm your way out of this one.

With regard to people being the, "children of the Devil" Just in case you missed it, God himself started this form of classification from the garden of Eden that there would be ONLY TWO CLASSES OF HUMANS ON THIS EARTH, one group are those who are obedient to his words and the other group treat his words as if he never uttered them. The first group according to him are called children of the Devil and the obedient group he refers to as his children. So my friend it is not my words, if you don't like the classifications put the blame where it has merit.

quote:

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Did it ever occur to me that you were being kind? No, it didn't because I do not expect you to step out of character. You have not been so far.

---

Oh but I have! On many occasions and in different threads when I could have wiped the floor with you when you came against me I chose to walk away. Even in this thread I would gladly walk away if you do not keep coming back. Believe me I do not enjoy having to come back again and again at you because you do not know when you are beaten and quit when you get the chance. Notice I gave you the chance to quit earlier when I said I was done? You did not take it, you are like a dog with a bone.

quote:

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What is the difference between a tradition and a tool? Length of time, that's all. Christmas is a tool for rememberng and celebrating his birth for which millions of people are grateful. The car is a now-traditional means of transportation (just tell someone that you do not have a car or a television and see how they react. Jesus speaks of none of these, yet you are willing to live traditionally in some areas while hypocritically telling others not to live in one. You are making the artificial distinction between the the tradtion and the tool, no matter how traditional the tool may be.

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*sigh* for the millionth time let me answer this point and speak slowly with everything bolded and in UPPERCASE CAP so that you understand. "T.H.E B.IB.L.E M.A.K.E.S I.T C.L.E.A.R T.H.A.T T.H.E J.E.W.S U.N.D.ER G.O.D.'S D.I.R.E.C.T.I.O.N N.E.V.E.R C.E.L.E.B.R.A.T.E.D B.I.R.T.H.D.A.Y.S. A.T T.H.E S.A.M.E T.I.M.E T.H.E B.I.B.L.E P.O.I.N.T.E.D O.U.T T.H.E P.E.O.P.L.E W.H.O C.E.L.E.B.R.A.T.E.D B.I.R.T.H.D.A.Y.S W.E.R.E T.H.E G.E.N.T.I.L.E.S W.H.O D.I.D N.O.T K.N.O.W G.O.D. C.A.N Y.O.U S.E.E T.H.E P.A.R.A.L.L.E.L? T.H.A.T I.S, T.H.E. B.I.B.L.E O.R G.O.D K.N.E.W A.B.O.U.T B.I.R.T.H.D.A.Y.S B.E.C.A.U.S.E T.H.E B.I.B.L.E T.A.L.K.E.D A.B.O.U.T I.T, I.T I.S N.O.T N.E.W O.R S.O.M.E.T.H.I.N.G T.H.A.T W.E H.A.VE J.U.S.T D.I.S.C.O.V.E.R.E.D. W.H.A.T I.S S.I.G.N.I.F.I.C.A.N.T A.N.D Y.O.U C.O.N.T.I.N.U.E T.O M.I.S.S T.H.I.S P.O.I.N.T I.S T.H.A.T W.H.E.N.E.V.E.R B.I.R.T.H.D.A.Y.S A.R.E M.E.N.T.I.O.N.E.D, I.T I.S A.S.S.O.C.I.A.T.E.D W.I.T.H E.N.E.M.I.E.S O.F G.O.D.
I.F A.F.T.E.R K.N.O.W.I.N.G A.L.L T.H.E.S.E F.A.C.T.S A.N.D K.N.O.W.I.N.G T.H.A.T J.E.S.U.S W.A.S H.E.R.E W.I.T.H U.S A.N.D K.N.E.W A.B.O.U.T T.H.E.S.E T.H.I.N.G.S A.N.D D.I.D N.O.T O.N.C.E P.A.R.T.A.K.E I.N I.T, Y.O.U O.N T.H.E O.T.H.E.R H.A.N.D T.H.I.N.K Y.O.U K.N.OW B.E.T.T.E.R A.N.D S.E.T U.P C.H.R.I.S.T.M.A.S T.O C.E.L.E.B.R.A.T.E H.I.S BI.R.T.H.D.A.Y.

The point please - please - please is that those things you are using in comparison did not exist, on the other hand birthdays DID- got it- birthdays existed from the time of the Egytptians to the modern world so every Jew and Bible writer knew about it but it was never mentioned as something children of God did even though the Bible CATALOGUES and MENTIONS the most trivial celebration that the Israelites engaged in. Are you getting the point? They knew about it and in the Bible they mentioned everything else but left that VERY IMPORTANT celebration out? Give me a break; what is more important than celebrating someone's birthday. Look how big Christmas is?

To make matters worse, the Apostle Paul in his letters to the Gentiles made it very clear that the NEW Christians should not be HOLDING and CELEBRATING special days. Check it out, it is in Paul's letters in the Bible, if you know the Bible as you claim you do you will find the verse I am talking about.

quote:

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Henry--A question just occurred to me: you're not a Jehovah's Witness, are you?

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What is the relevance? Many people who follow the scriptures do not celebrate Christmas. As you asked me a direct question , I will give you a direct answer, "NO! I am a Jehovah's Witness.

quote:

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You "dare" me. How adult. How loving.

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Are you telling I should have ignored your accusation that certain Bible books contradicted my arguments. Because I did not and called your bluff now you are saying that wasn't very loving? If you were begging for mercy you should have said so and I am sure I would have been benevolent.

quote:

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Why do I get the feeling that you are not going to let this conversation arrive at a constructive goal?

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Huh? Go back to the beginning of this topic and you would see the topic was on track and I answered the point raised until you stepped in it with the high and mighty attitude of yours.

quote:

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Why must you stare at the mote in someone else's eye and ignore the log in your own?

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Opps, Did I catch you judging again? Don't worry I will overlook it this time. *Loving gesture*


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[This message was edited by henry38 on September 06, 2003 at 02:49 AM.]

Hello, Henry, are you anywhere near earth?

Your pride is showing. Again.

You simply are not paying attention to the argument.

Lack of proof is not proof of lack. Just because the Bible does not mentions something does not mean that it did not happen. It also does not mean that , if it was not done, that you have the right to assume a reason for it.

You are saying that, since the Bible does not record anyone in Israel (the people of God, now) celebrating a birthday but does not say why they didn't (God does not forbid them, you see), then you can assume the right to give everyone a reason, a speculation, and then proclaim that that is God's reason.

It is not, it is your guess. That you thn go on to say that it is God's reason is the height of presumption.

But never mind, you do not listen, you cannot respect those who disagree with you, so I see no purpose in continuing this fruitless conversation with one who cannot distinguish between a pearl and pig slop.

quote:

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Originally posted by Melesi:
You are saying that, since the Bible does not record anyone in Israel (the people of God, now) celebrating a birthday but does not say why they didn't (God does not forbid them, you see), then you can assume the right to give everyone a reason, a speculation, and then proclaim that that is God's reason.

It is not, it is your guess. That you thn go on to say that it is God's reason is the height of presumption.
.

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You see this where you are wrong AGAIN. THE BIBLE DOES FORBID, ASKS NOT TO CELEBRATE IT. I have not provided the scripture where it says so and your quick conclusions prove that you don't know the Bible well enough otherwise you would know such verses exist.

Maybe if you ask nicely I will show you.

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Melesi, your liberal biblical interpretaions, make the bible worth nothing. Why even have a bible when it means nothing? Why not celibrate Moses' birthday? Or Jacobs? Why seperates your religon form what the catholics do( saint worship)?

Bottom line Xmass is not biblical, but you celibrate it anyway.

[This message was edited by blaqfist on September 12, 2003 at 09:42 PM.]

Blaqfist,

Why stop there? I also celebrate Fourth of July and Easter, and I've been known to enjoy the occasional Guy Fawks' Day and even decided to one year to celebrate both St. Swithin's Day and St. Ildifonsus' Day simply because I enjoyed the names.

So I guess I'm really lost, huh?

Come, now, blaqfist. You are concentrating on the wrong thing. Don't make the Gospel another set of lists and regulations which it was never intended to become. When asked what is important to do, what did Jesus say but to love God and our neighbor with all our heart? What did the prophets tell us but what that means--"do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with your God"?

What God tells us to concentrate on is not to celebrate one day or another or not to so celebrate. Whether we do that or not is up to us and it doesn't make any difference, as long as we do it to honor God. Romans 14:5-8 makes some pertinent comment to that end.

We have do business arguing with each other over the celebration of Christmas. What we need t be doing is encouraging each other to do good to all people and to praise God in all our actions.

Whether we celebrate Christmas or not is entirely up to our individual conscience. I do not desparage you for not observing it, and you really should not do so to me for observing it.

Christmas or not, it doesn't matter.

We could celebrate Moses' birthday. If we did, then celebrate it thankfully to God for giving him to us. Same with Jacob's birthday.

As I understand it, Catholics do not worship saints. They venerate them, which is different, for that is merely giving them an honor that seems appropriate for their giving their lives to God. Catholics do sometimes go beyond what I think is justifiable in praying to them and asking for their help, but I do not think that that needs to be denigrated as disqualifiying them from the ranks of the righteous. Not many of us are perfect, and thus we should be careful about casting stones.

The Apostle Paul in his letters in Cols 2:16,17 and Gal. 4:9-11 specifically forbids the holding of certain days as special. Does this mean he was contradicting himself at Romans 14:5-8. On the face of it someone would say, "Yes! He is" Actually he is not. Romans 14:5-8 talks about personal choices which is different from what the Christians should do as one body or congregation. In this regard Cols. 2:16, 17 and Gal. 4:9-11 makes it clear that as to holding certain days as special to celebrate this is wrong. Christmas falls into this category.

To help you understand why Christmas is wrong we have to understand that it stands for the celebration of Christ's birthday. With this in mind we look at the times the Bible talks about birthdays and see how it treats the celebration.

The first time we hear of birthday celebration in the Bible in when it was mentioned at Gen 40:20. This was the Celebration of Pharaoh's birthday when he had one of his servants killed as part of the celebration. On the face of it this one would assume that this is just one of many Bible stories. On close study it is extremely significant because of who wrote this account. Moses is widely known the person who wrote the books of Genesis to Deuteronomy. What makes this significant is Moses for 40 years of his life from birth was a Prince of Egypt. What this means is from day one of his life as an Egyptian prince celebrating birthdays was a big celebration in Egyptian lives and Gen. 40, 20 confirms this.

What is strange is what Moses does when he comes to know God and becomes an active worshipper of God. This strange behavior is in the books of Leviticus to Deuteronomy where he Moses outlines different festivals and celebration for the Israelites to observe and not once did he mention this very important celebration of birthdays which was an important part of his life once upon a time. Moses goes into so much detail. In some parts he even describes the design of the clothes to wear and even goes as far as how women should dress and behave when they are having their period.

The second time we come across birthdays is when Herod an enemy of God was celebrating his birthday and he had the greatest human in the eyes of God, John the Baptist beheaded for entertainment.

On both of these occasions it is enemies of God who are celebrating birthdays and not once does the Bible say true worshippers of God EVER took part in these celebrations.

What Melesi is failing to realize and understand is when he makes comparison he uses things or places that the Israelites would not have known about so his illustrations don't make any sense whatsoever. What Melesi is failing to see is that Moses and the other Bible writers KNEW about birthdays and though they mentioned and catalogued many minor festivals and occasions they POINTEDLY omitted to mention birthdays. If they did not know about it then Melesi's argument would make sense but on the on the contrary we know they knew all about it.

In the face of this we have to ask, "is this omission of celebration of birthdays an accident or is it deliberate."

Paul's letters help us to arrive at the answer. In Galatians Paul makes it clear that when the people of the Nations (Gentiles) did not know God, they held certain days as special but now that they have come to know God, they CAN NOT continue to do so anymore.

Paul is a Jew and a natural descendant of the early Bible writers like Moses. For him to make this statement shows it was not by accident that the Bible writers failed to talk about something they knew was happening but their omitting to mention the celebration was VERY DELIBERATE.

Paul does not mince his words and points out that marking out certain days or months as or seasons for special observation is wrong. Please read what he says at Gal. 4:9-11.

What is sad about Christians today is absolutely none of them observe the instruction of celebrating the Last Supper which Christ asked for and which was what the Apostles and Disciples scrupulously OBSERVED. Even when Christ died and for hundred of years not one TRUE Christian celebrated his birthday. The celebration only came into effect when white Europeans discovered Christianity and polluted the teachings in the Bible. Later when they the Europeans went around conquering, raping and pillaging the rest of the world, they forced their new subjects to adopt this highly polluted and contaminated form of Christianity with Christmas the chief celebration

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1. Christmas was not "the chief celebration" of the Church for a very long time. Easter was.

2. I suppose that henry has such a narrow definition for "the Lord's Supper" that it would make it seem as though the Church has not celebrated it and does not today. However, it seems to me that the Church in fact does. "Do this in remembrance of me" is only a part of the Bible verses quoted at every celebration of the Eucharist. Some churches celebrate it every Sunday, some twice a month, some once every month, and some once or twice a year. But the congregation of the faithful has celebrated it since the time of the apostles.

3. There is a serious problem with henry's interpretation of the Gal. 4 passage. It has nothing to do with the Romans 14 text.

One of the problems with reading the New Testament only in English is that one is at the mercy of the interpreter(s). It can't be helped. Always there will be things one can say in one language that cannot be said in another. For example, in English there is one word for "love." In Greek there are four. In English we cannot command someone who is not in our presence. We cannot say, for example, "Him, do that!" We have to use the construction "Let him do that." "Tell him that I said to do that." In Greek someone or something not in your presence can be commanded. Just use the imperative form.

And there are times that meanings overlap in one language where they do not in another. The Gal 4 versus Rom 14 texts are a case in point. In English we can use the word "observe" in both cases, but the Greek word is quite different in the two verses, with very different meanings.

In Gal. 4, the word is a form of the word "to keep." It is "Paratereisthe," (pah-rah-tay-RAYS-they). You can also find this word (or one of its forms with the same basic meaning) in Acts 9:24 where those plotting to kill Saul of Tarsus "carefully watched" the gates day and night. It's also in Mark 3:2, Luke 6:7, and Luke 14:1, where people "carefully (or "closely") watched" Jesus to see if he'd heal on the Sabbath. It's also in Luke 20:20 in a slightly different context but with the same meaning of intent and intense, concentrated watching.

That's what Paul's talking about in Gal 4, the intense, deliberate, close observation and keeping of a day because the peole he's talking to believe that they need to for their salvation's sake. The context of the passage makes the meaning clear.

Romans 14 is talking about something quite different. What's going on here is "minding" a day. The word is "phronon," (fro-NOHN), a form of "phroneo" (froh-NAY-oh) which simply means "mind" or "like" or "think." Look in Acts 28:22 ("But we'd like to hear from you"), Phil 1:7 ("It is right for me to think like this about you"), Romans 12:16 (this is a little sticky to translate, since literally it says "The same thing toward one another minding"--It's about unity of thought and concern, like: "live together as one"), and 1 Cor. 13:11 ("When I was a child I...thought as a child"). There are many more instances of the word, but you get the idea from these.

So what Paul is saying in Galatians is that one does not treat days as important to your salvation. In Romans he's not dealing with that issue, just the fact that, in this disunited church some are saying "I'm better than you are because I celebrate these days," and others are saying "And I'm better than you are because I don't." Paul tells them that it doesn't matter. Go ahead and celebrate those days, he says, or don't celebrate them. If you do it to the Lord--whichever you choose--then you do the right thing.

The two issues he speaks to in Gal 4 and Rom 14 are very different, and he says that one is bad (Gal.) and one is of no importance (Rom.). In the second case, he says, do as you wish.

Which is precisely my point. Henry and Blaqfist don't celebrate Christmas. Fine. I do. Fine. Let's both give thanks to God for what we have and for what we may do. And let's get back to some kind of unity and stop dividing ourselves over issues that make no difference.

The Colossians 2 passage supports my case. It says in fact that we ought not to do as henry and balqfist are doing: "Let no one pass jdgement on you in eating and in drinking or in respect of a feast or a new moon or sabbaths, which things are a shadow of things coming, but the body is of Christ." in other words, don't argue about this stuff, but instead be one in Christ.

No one that I know of celebrates Christmas as a means of salvation, that if we don't celebrate it we'll go to hell. We celebrate it because we wish to honor Christ and the Father who sent him. For that reason, then, we are right to do so. For those who do not because they believe not doing so is obedient to God and thus honoring to him, they are right to do so.

This is just a quick question Melesi because I am having a horrible feeling that you have a hard time in understanding things and issues.

This is the question and you should keep Colossians in mind when you respond. "Do You Melesi celebrate Christmas because you Melesi set it up and establish it or do you celebrate it because some pagans established it and you continue to hold fast to the tradition because you know no better.

For once THINK and meditate on the scriptures before you answer

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I had to come back to make sure that when I asked Melesi, that you take Colossians 2 into consideration when you answer the question you understood me precisely. I wanted to make sure that you understood the context under which Paul was writing. He was mainly focused on the Mosaic law that dealt with circumcision and the Sabbath. In view of this I hope you ALSO understand the authority which had handed down the Mosaic law. When you read Galatians he is talking in general terms not dwelling on any specifics but obviously on celebrations that the Gentiles had brought into Christianity so please keep this in mind when you respond because we all would love to know the authority of this person or persons who set up Christmas for you to UPHOLD and defend so vigourously even though it is cLEARLY NOT ASKED FOR by any recognisable authority in the Bible.

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I have one question for MELESI:

Do you, your family or your church display "Christmas" trees during the Holiday season?

If so, could you explain what Biblical tradition you are upholding by doing so.

A simple, straight-forward answer would suffice.

henry,

I'm sorry that you have a horrible feeling, but I am confident of two things: 1. It's not my fault, and 2. You will recover.

Once again, you misunderstand my position. I do not "uphold and defend so vigorously" Christmas. What I uphold and defend is the freedom of people to celebrate it or not as they wish, the freedom given to them in Christ and by the words of Paul in Romans 14.

So I do it because I want to.

Don't make more of this than there is to make. Christmas is fun, and lived correctly, there's a good deal of "quiet fun" (C.S. Lewis's term) in the Christian life, because we are free in Christ in ways that legalists and nonbelievers can not know. I don't need to celebrate Christmas--when I was overseas in the military I did not and really didn't miss it--but I choose to because it is a generally-accepted time of thanking God for giving us Jesus.

I also do it because it is the one time of the year that just about everybody plays the music that tells of God givng us his son, and so the message is told many times in December.

Your statement that in Galatians Paul is talking "obviously" about Gentile celbrations imported into the Church is not obvious at all. It is a possibility, but that's not what he says. Special days and such were well known in the Hebrew Bible--The Feast of Weeks, Passover, Purim, and new moons for example--and so while it may be that Paul speaks of Gentile observances, he could just as easily have been talking about one of the obsservances--one of the special days--from the Old Testament.

Heny, I think that you position on this issue is a silly one. You are being legalistic in ways that Paul condemns in Galatians, yet you cannot see how narrow and demanding and self-righteous you are. Lighten up. Life in Christ is a lot better than you're allowing it to be. Don't go looking for people to criticize and other people's habits to change by condemnation. Be free in Christ and serve him in joy instead of glowering your way through a discussion like this one.

Nmaginate,

That was actually two questions.

I have two questions for Nmaginate:

Do you or your family use computers?

If so, could you explain what Biblical tradition you are upholding by doing so?

Why are you trying to avoid the issue? Is it because you know you can't make an answer in-keeping with your position...?

Computers have nothing to do with Christmas celebrations in the way that Christmas Trees do... AND YOU KNOW IT!

Do you or do you not utilize trees in your observance of the Christmas holiday?

A straight-forward.... YES - or - NO answer would suffice. Then if you care to explain why, I would appreciate that too.

Thank you!

Nmaginate,

I'm not avoiding the issue. We've only just started with the issue. Of course I can give you an answer in keeping with my position. My point, however, was to show you that, if you are saying what I think you're saying, you are using a double standard.

If your standard is that we can only do as Biblical tradition says we can, then we are all in danger--including you--because we all do things that do not "uphold Biblical tradition," and any distinction between "this nonbiblical act is good and that nonbiblical act is bad" is artificial and arbitrary.

Not everything that we do needs to uphold a biblical tradition. First, a tradition is synthetic. Someone had to invent it, and just because a tradition was invented over 2000 years ago doesn't mean that it is a good one.

Besides, there are plenty of biblical traditions that we do not keep today, such as making legal contracts on the carcass of a freshly-killed farm animal or by exchanging shoes, or swearing by putting a hand under someone's thigh.

So the whole issue of traditions--biblical or not--is very likely a red herring. A tradition is something that we are free to keep or not to keep. It is not commanded by God. It can be a way that we have decided is a good way to obey God, but usually it's just something that we have grown to do. Therefore we are free to do it or not.

Now, then, to answer your question:

My church does not display a Christmas tree, but I do in my home. It's fun, I like the smell of a freshly-cut evergreen (I go out to a tree farm and cut my own), and I enjoy the lights.

Is this a Biblical tradition? No, and I do not say that it is. Does that make it wrong? No.

I also use computers--as do you--which are not part of Biblical tradition, either. I have built clocks and model rockets and snowshoes, too, which are not part of Biblical tradition. They are not wrong, either.

If you say that all of these are permissible except for the Christmas tree, I hope that you will explain the reason for your belief.

I also forge spears and knives, which are part of Biblical tradition, as are swords. Do you have a spear and a knife and a sword? If not, why don't you uphold this Biblical tradition?

Melesi I agree with Nmaginate. One can nevr get an honest and truthful answer from you. This whole unfortunate incident has occured because of how you answer questions. The origional question about Christmas was answered in a straight and honest way by me. That was not good for you and you wade in and behave in a way which a man of God should never do i.e. answer questions with a forked tongue. We are black people we like to call a spade a spade when we know it is a spade. That is how people in the Bible spoke. The original question was is Christmas Christian? The honest and truthful answer is, "No it is not" no more no less and let the matter rest. That way you have done your job as a honest and truthful Christian. The way you have tackled this question to be honest with you have convinced I for one you are one dishonest Christian.

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henry,

No, I didn't convince you of anything at all. You decided that because I didn't answer as you think I should--which is very much as you answer, which tells you something about your standards for others--then I am (choose one) haughty, slippery, or deceptive.

Now, what was untruthful about the way I just answered nmaginate? What was untruthful about the way I've answered you? Did I lie about something? Was I wrong about the Greek?

Or did you just not bother to check on my translation?

Was I lying when I said that I celebrate Christmas because I want to, because I like the holiday? about Catholics not worshipping saints? About my celebrating a whole host of holidays? About what God requires of us when I quoted Micah 6:8?

What do you mean you "can't get an honest and truthful answer" out of me? I have given them to you every time you asked, every time we have exchanged. I have never spoken with a "forked tongue," which is a charge that you make but do not support.

Where have I lied to you? Where have I spoken with a forked tongue?

I am not a dishonest Christian. I am simply not a legalistic one and recognize what freedom in Christ means. Christmas is Christian when a Christian celebrates it and gives glory to God because of his gift of Jesus.

By the way, your example of the two birthdays--pharaoh's and Herod's, are not relevant because those were real birthdays. Christmas is not a birthday. We sometimes say that to children because they it will help them to understand the reason for it better, but it isn't quite like that. It's a simile, an illustration. Christmas celebrates Jesus' birth, but we all understand that Jesus probably wasn't born at that time of the year. We don't know when he was born, so we celebrate his birth but not his birthday.

You do understand the difference, don't you?

We are free to celebrate it or not. If we don' , then we give glory to God when we don't. When we do, we give glory to God when we do. Either way, God is glorified.

OH, yes--about your rationalization that you speak like the people in the Bible spoke:

That must be why people often were puzzled by Jesus' parables, because he spoke so plainly. That's why the disciples had to take him aside and ask him what he meant by what he said, and in his reply he said that he deliberately spoke in parables so that he would be difficult to understand.

But then, you know all this much better than I do. You have said so. Like a man of God always proudly does.

NegroSpiritual was right...

For you, it's all about the Circle Jerk.

Computers are in no way, even today, the integral part of the Celebration of Christmas the way Christmas trees are. You are comparing the proverbial Apples with the Oranges. And, I know, YOU know that too.

Your weaselness, while it doesn't surprise me, is so very depressing.

And... I'm not a Christian therefore you idea that "we" or that I'm not "upholding" Biblical tradition is rather absurd. I'm not beholden to them. It is not my faith so why should I??

Nmaginate,

It would be useful if you would think once in a while.

Did I say that computers had anything to do with Christmas? You will look in vain for any indication from me that I think so.

No, I was talking about your reasoning, which is as sanitary as the inside of rotting whale. You asked if, providing I used a Christmas tree as part of my Christmas celebration, which Biblical tradition that supported or obeyed. My answer to you of 12:48 today is quite clear enough to show even you that I answered your question and the reasoning that I used.

The idea that one must uphold Biblical traditions in all that one does is absurd, which means that your question, "Which Biblical tradition you are upholding by doing so?" (Sept. 10, 8:20 AM for your reference) is irrelevant.

I showed that you do not uphold Biblical traditions all the time, nor does anyone have to. So your question was useless.

I answered it anyway. That makes your charge that I am being "weasely" a lie.

A lie, Nmaginate. That makes you a liar.

Now you are the one avoiding answering and being a "weasel." I answer your question, tell you my reasons, and you ignore what I say.

If the answer makes no difference to you, then you had no reason to ask the question in the first place.

Which conclusion is made the stronger by your admission that you ar not a Christian. That means that you have no basis for asking anything about Biblical traditions as you did since you are abysmally ignorant about them to begin with.

Depressing? Why, if I have done that to you then I think that I have just performed a public service, for maybe now you'll stop talking about things you know nothing about.

But I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Oh.... I'm trembling now that you called me a LIAR!!

Call me names I just....
I like it like that!!!

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Which conclusion is made the stronger by your admission that you are not a Christian. That means that you have no basis for asking anything about Biblical traditions as you did since you are abysmally ignorant about them to begin with.

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Because I'm not a Christian (now) does not mean that I was never a Christian or that I'm ignorant to what Christian traditions or Biblical traditions are. My memory may fail me but I do believe you at one point and time told me that it wasn't necessary to be a Muslim to understand their beliefs and that such a suggestion as an imperative was flawed. Regardless, your aSSumptions about what I know about the Bible and Christianity SHOWS YOUR IGNORANCE... and frankly your ARROGANCE!!!

You have no idea what I know about Christianity except for what I share with you on this board. And you are a WEASEL!!! and every other name I've called you from day one.

Your reasoning amounts to crap!! What you call being RATIONAL is your poor RATIONALE!!

There's a difference!

The fact that you were claiming that I don't always uphold Biblical traditions without knowing what my faith was/is shows that you will say anything WITHOUT THINKING and WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE... You should have known. I'm sure I have told you before...

And as far as your WEAK reasoning...
YOu actually expect someone to believe you're saying something real??? ...instead of whatever pops into your head as a way to defend your lame position?

Silly Rabbit!!!

(Mannn... I haven't said that in a while! )

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on September 10, 2003 at 11:50 PM.]

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...stop talking about things you know nothing about.

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You're a riot!!

I think I've demonstrated my knowledge as it pertains to the Bible plenty of times to you. Lest you forget the Jesus & Christianity Debate we had before.

No... I don't swallow your doctrine but you can't say I don't "know nothing about" the Bible or Christianity. What happened to your little whimpy plea:
"MBM, Sorry, but this guy just will not discuss reasonably."

Yeah... that was when you had very little to say in defense of you WEAK reasoning when confronted with what I do know about the Bible. And I did in fact tell you then that I was NOT a Christian but you for some reason aSSumed I was, apparently, in this thread JUST to try to make the point that I was as GUILTY as you ARE of not "upholding" Biblical/Christian traditions, which is too absurd. I'd like to see you say that to a Muslim or any person of a non-Christian faith and see how the laugh in your face for saying something so STUPID!!

That goes to show you your Circle has Jerked your freakin' brain loose so much that you can't remember things you've been told let alone the crap that comes out the side of your neck solely for the purpose of making what you say sound good regardless as to how much it is based in truth or the actual subject at hand.

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A tradition is something that we are free to keep or not to keep. It is not commanded by God.

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Didn't HENRY more or less ask you whether or not Christmas is "ordained" by God and/or Biblically??

What was your answer then?

Now keep that in the context of your (weasel) response in the Debate linked to above. You said Jesus would approve of Christianity because he created it which in essence says that the cardinal beliefs and practices of Christianity are in fact what he set forth.

See how you will say just about anything???


[This message was edited by Nmaginate on September 11, 2003 at 12:50 AM.]

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on September 11, 2003 at 12:52 AM.]

Namginate,

Thank you for making my point. I answered reasonably to you, and you do nothing but respond with a superior attiude that hears nothing, learns nothing, knows nothing.

How is "Sorry MBM, but this guy just will not argue reasonably" a plea? What did I plead with MBM to do? IT was a statement and a reason for stopping my thread with you before--and for the same reason as I do now.

I pay you the respect of taking you seriously, I place us together in the same humanity (thus the "we" passages that you assumed meant that "we" are Christians. Actually, I assumed that we were merely both human, but I see that you are not, and I apoligize for the mistake.

As for what you know about the Bible, there's a lot of room left on that pin-head.

As for what henry asked me, he has his own problems with reasoning. I wouldn't add them to my own if I were you.

Your last statement is interesting if only because it is so mistaken, for it assumes too much. A tradition that does not run counter to the laws of God is permissible. The cardinal beliefs and practices of Christianity are in fact what Jesus set forth. Since he said that we are free to do much on our own--he did not come to give us another list of laws--then Christmas or not, as long as we do it for the right reason with the right motive, then we are doing the "right" thing.

You are such an intolerant bigot.