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New York, New York - Dwayne Henry had visions of shooting a documentary on Occupy Wall Street - that is until he found himself so engaged in the movement, he had to put his camera down.

 

This past weekend, Henry, 24, was one of the more than 700 protesters arrested on the Brooklyn Bridge.

 

TheGrio: How 'Occupy Wall Street' has seized the moment


He spent 12 hours in a cell before being released and he started to notice something else that was bothering him -- the lack of African-Americans involved and doing the 'occupying'.

 

"I could probably count on one hand the number of black people that are here, and I probably know them all," Henry said from Occupy Wall Street 'headquarters' at Zuccotti Park in lower Manhattan. "It's not that blacks are rejecting the movement, they just don't believe in it yet."

 

 

 

Henry said that in addition to fighting against the unfair benefits he believes the wealthiest one percent receive, most of the issues the movement wants to change have a direct and intense impact on African-Americans: lack of health insurance, unemployment, environmental pollution and spending cuts in education and other social services.

 

He thinks it's time for President Barack Obama to speak up.

 

"I know he can't outright support [Occupy Wall Street] for political reasons, I understand that but if he would acknowledge it, I think a lot [of people] in the African-American community would then acknowledge it," Henry said. "Because Obama's really a black leader..."

 

Many African-Americans at Zuccotti Park Wednesday agreed there should be more black involvement in the Occupy Wall Street protests.

 

"If we're talking about wealth inequality, if we're talking about poverty, unemployment - there's no way that we can have those conversations without the people who are most victimized by those things here," said Stephon Boatwright, a Ph.D candidate in political science at the CUNY Graduate Center. "I think [blacks and Latinos] would just like to see more people like themselves...that way maybe we can get some more specific issues to blacks and Latinos addressed."

 

But without systematic data on participation, some scholars are not ready to say definitively that blacks are not engaged in the occupy protests sweeping the nation.

"Everyone-commentators, journalists, politicians and even movement participants-expects African-Americans to be out front and center taking the lead in every progressive movement," said Alvin Tillery, an assistant professor of political science at Rutgers University. "Given the severity of the economic downturn and the organizational crisis in the African-American community, I think this sort of permanent vanguard view of African-Americans is incredibly naive."

 

In an appearance on MSNBC recently, media and hip-hop mogul Russell Simmons suggested he could help bring hundreds of thousands of people to the protests.

"I think we need some adjustments and I think the protesters represent a growing number of Americans who feel that there is a class warfare and the rich are waging a great war on the middle class and working class," he told MSNBC's Martin Bashir.

 

TheGrio: 700 arrested after protest on NY's Brooklyn Bridge


Some participants said Simmons' presence, along with other high-profile African-Americans, such as Cornel West, will help show black America that Occupy Wall Street has as much to do with them as anyone else.

 

The protests have spread all over the U.S. - from Los Angeles to Chicago to Connecticut - with no signs of slowing down. The protests, which originated in lower Manhattan, saw a spike in black and Latino participation around the time of the Troy Davis debate and execution but then tapered off.

 

"I think the [African-American] presence is definitely missed," said Anne Baxter, 60 and registered nurse. "There are individuals here, like myself, but not to the extent where you can say 'African-Americans are here and are taking on the struggle.'"

A Facebook page, 'Occupy The Hood,' has attracted one thousand 'members' and has a specific focus on getting more African-American voices heard throughout the protests. The group has a Twitter account as well.

 

But social media may not be enough.

 

"Black people are tired," said Cassandra Freeman, an actress and drama instructor. "They've been feeling what a lot of these protesters have been feeling for years, so they support the movement even though they are not physically here."

 

Freeman, 32, says those who have jobs are lucky and need to hold on to them. She says that may be a reason why African-American women especially have not been a strong presence at the protests.

 

"They want to be a part of this, but you can be a part of it and not physically be here."

 

Tillery, whose research specializes in social movements, said the question of black involvement in the occupy protests is a serious one - and one that deserves more critical coverage.

 

"What we know from social science research is that people need resources that increase their sense of efficacy and facilitates their ability to break out of such hardship conditions and participate in protest actions," Tillery adds. "I am not ready to say that African-Americans are underrepresented in the movement because their participation may not yet be fully visible."

 

<small>NBC News associate Chika Oduah contributed to this report.</small>

 
 BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE.
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People just don't get it. We got what we wanted.....a black POTUS. We don't care nuttin bout no wealth inequality, job inequality, poverty inequality, health care inequality etc. Wez got us a black massa now....so wez be free and don't need no marchin no mo! sides....we wood'nt want dem tah think dat we be marchin gainst massa Obama who we luvs mo den we loves ourselves. Massa.....is wez sick?

College educated (BS CS)

worked through college (been working since 14)

Married (to a black women)

Children (in gifted track at school)

No Children out of wedlock

Never been unfaithful to my wife

Six figure household income

Mentor

Don't smoke

Don't Drink

6'0 190 32 inch waist (bench 315)

Passionate about the black struggle for equality

No felonies

no fool!

no nonsense

no BS

.

.

.

 

Yep....I am the poster child of whats wrong with black America today!

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by EbonyRose:

Black people like you give the rest of us such a negative image ... and a bad name. 

 

I am embarrassed to have to be associated with you. 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

 

 

This movement is so new and was so spontaneous that I think that everyone has to get their barrings and THEN organize into groups to recruit and encourage others, which is what I think they are doing now.

 

In the news reports that I see, there are Black people in the crowds, not as many as I would like to see, but they are there.  However, African Americans have to very careful when it comes to things like this, and make sure that they are well organized and hopefully connected with known Civil Rights leaders/activists, with their demands clearly pointed out; if not, you know that America's propaganda machine and the right wing run media will do everything in it's(their) power to turn it into a race riot, like they did with the L.A. riots, which they used the media to turn the people of L.A.'s frustration and anger at the police into a Black race riot within a matter of a couple of hours.

 

 

 

I would like to see many African Americans out there protesting:

 

Injustice in America,

Racial Discrimination in the workplace and in education,

Racial profiling,

Injustice in our Courts,

Injustice in America's sentencing laws,

Police brutality,

Judicial Collusion,

The (fake) War On Drugs,

The systematic closings of the majority of public schools in predominately Black communities,

The negative stereotyping and labeling of Black children in public schools,

The disproportionate number of Black children disciplined, suspended and expelled from public schools

Predatory creditors,

Liquor stores in Black communities,

The funding cuts and funding manipulation that keep after school programs out of predominately Black communities,

Congress blocking job creation,

Congress cutting funding to social programs,

Congressional Legislation and deregulation that promotes American businesses moving jobs overseas,

Congress working for corporate America to the detriment of American citizens,

The overall general price gauging of the consumer,

 . . . just to name a few . . .


I also hope to see Senior Citizens join the protesters to demand that Congress keep their paws off of Social Security and Medicare


 

 

 

 

 

 

Last edited by sunnubian

Excuse me, speaking as a person who lives in NY I am not going to go down to Wall St. and march. WHY?? I believe that his is going to turn into a protest without constructive action and too many people with agendas OTHER THAN holding 'Wall St.' accountable for their actions. I can't be bothered with a movement that doesn't have a purpose that benefits me and mine.

I know what you mean, Yemaya ... but, I think I'm gonna go with Sunnubian on this one!! 

 

While it's true the original protesters pretty much did it "on the fly" .... I believe their heart and purpose was in the right place!!

 

And, even though more and more people are joining .... and a lot of them DO have different agendas .... from what I've heard so far ... ALL of those things are valid issues that need to be protested against!!   Some of them hit African Americans particularly hard(er) ... others are more of a general overall "American citizen" problem that we ALL share!!

 

But one way or the other ... all of them seem to be issues that center around bad/corrupted politicians who are not governing on our best behalf .... and/or Wall Street, who we know is bending us over, with no grease, and a sandpaper condom!!!

 

IMO, It would be counter-productive to have 20 different protests for 20 different issues that all pretty much boil down to the SAME thing .... the MAJORITY of Americans (of all races) are being screwed over by rich corporate interests, Republicans/Conservatives (and even some Democrats), the Tea Party, oil companies, credit card companies, etc., etc.  .... and ALL of that/them needs to be put in some SERIOUS CHECK!!

 

For the most part they are all intermingled and one in the same!    So the protest seems to me to be about a "Power to the people" movement now ... than just strictly narrowed down to a "protest Wall Street" demonstration!!

 

However ... I feel you when it comes to the lack of leadership ... which is something they need more than ANYTHING else at this point!  They need somebody or an organization with "leadership" and organizational experience to bring them together in a unified front ... but, I can very much see (and fear) such an entity (say, the Teamsters, or the NAACP, or a Dennis Kucinich, or some celebrity ...  try to take it over and then hijacked towards their own special interest!! 

 

But right now ... it seems like a good thing ... heading in the right direction ... which I hope millions of people will eventually join!!  They haven't started one in Houston, yet (a few dozen people camped out in front of City Hall over the weekend ... but all civil peace has been restored! )

 

I figured my marching days were over but ....  you never know! 

Yemaya makes a lot of sense. Without clearly defined objectives joining such a protest makes no sense unless the goal is simply the enjoyment of protesting in and of itself. What is the vision for America that the protestors want? When black people marched and rallied it has been for clearly defined goals, not some amorphous anti-wall Street protest. Essentially this is an anti-capitalism rally because the whole system of capitalism is based upon greed and getting more out of something than you put in. So what are they going to replace the system with and do people really know the ramifications of their way of life if such wishes manifested?


I am also going to stand alone out on a limb and suggest that one cannot have a protest against the system without it appearing as if it’s a protest against the leader of the system, which is the president of the United States. If there are protest in the streets against the way things are, and leaders are believed to have to have the ability to change the way things are, then it intrinsically and subliminally becomes a protest against the leadership to pressure them to change things. I doubt seriously that black people are going to, in large numbers, join a protest against the “System” when the leader of the system is the first black president who we want to provide aid and comfort to and not protest against. I mean, if black people are not standing up to this leadership and protesting on behalf of growing racial inequality and the unwillingness of the leadership to address it, why the hell would we join some amorphous protest with no clearly defined objective?  I think that most black people were taught to take care of their own house before they join others to take care of theirs. In other words, the problems black people have faced existed long before derivatives trading and the recent Ponzi schemes of Wall Street. Right? I think black folks are smart enough to know that their problems run much deeper than what happened on Wall Street and will not be radically changed in Wall Street somehow changes.

 

I think some people want to try to make a difference....and will jump on any Tom, Dick and Harry protest that shows up. people have to learn to choose wisely...like Yemaya did.

I personally do not think the Occupy Wall Street crowd is going to be effective at accomplishing anything.

 

I had economists calling me Loony and Idiot ten years ago.

 

http://www.toxicdrums.com/econ...s-by-dal-timgar.html

 

But education is mostly paying White people to dribble out unimportant information as slowly as possible.  I took my first so called Computer Science course in 1969.  But I don't recall a single course that had a good explanation of how von Neumann machines work.  In 4 years at IBM I never ran across the term.  The educational system is a scam just like this NAZInomics is a SCAM.  The American Dream is a delusion that is full of sh!t.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dg96tefnEU

 

Notice you don't hear any economists talking about planned obsolescence and the people talking about planned obsolescence don't talk about the TRILLIONS lost to depreciation since the MOON LANDING.  Why are we supposed to give a damn about what cars look like after so long?  I'll be obnoxious about it.  Women think buying technology is like buying dresses and jewelry.  We are supposed to buy stuff that impresses other people.

 

What does the word LADY really mean.  I looked it up in grade school after listening to girls trying to make a big deal about it.  There are lots of definitions but the only one that made real sense was SOPHISTICATED WOMAN.  So what does SOPHISTICATED mean?  It means KNOWLEDGEABLE OF THE WAYS OF THE WORLD. 

 

So would Accounting and being Knowledgeable of Technology qualify as SOPHISTICATED?  Or is it keeping up with the latest fashions?  I trust White people to supply me with information and attitudes that helps them take advantage of me.  Sell me SOPHISTICATED crap that gets money out of my pocket.  So the state of the economy is the results of 50 years of that nonsense.

 

So if the Occupy Wall Street crowd is not talking about planned obsolescence and depreciation then I say they are just getting emotional about the results and don't understand how it happened.  We should have been on a 3-day work week back in the 80s and have cars that last 25 years.  I am sorry but the Laws of Physics don't change style year to year.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5DCwN28y8o

 

http://www.onread.com/book/Subversive-13972/

 

Xum

 

I am really not inclined to speak ill of the dead but how many people bought this stupidly designed junk from Steve Jobs and thought it was REALLY COOL?

 

apframe64

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Last edited by Xumbrarchist
Originally Posted by Temporary Vox:

I was literally just about to post this exact same point.  That was my entire reason for logging on just now.  If there's one thing about successful black protests through the years, there has always been a very specific set of demanded outcomes.  I haven't seen that coming out of this protest.  This does not, however, mean that I don't support them.  I do, because in these times, the establishment needs to be rattled a bit.  But I really do wish/hope they come up with some specific demands -- and that when they do, the intensity level of the protests grows even stronger. 

 

-------------------------------

 

Okay .... I don't mean to be contrary here .... but, I'm just trying to put your 'dissent' into proper context! 

 

You say:

 

"If there's one thing about successful black protests through the years, there has always been a very specific set of demanded outcomes."

 

.... which, in essence is true, but, really .... as far as I can come up with .... there haven't really BEEN any series of "successful black protests' through the years!!    The only "successful black protest" that comes to mind is the CRM.  And, maybe before that there were some "slave revolts" towards freedom, or something!!

 

But .... I'm interested to know what "successful black protests" are you thinking about??

 

And the reason that I ask is because ... it seems to me you are saying (agreeing) that part of the reason why Black folks may have (or should have, perhaps??) an excuse for not joining the protest is because it has no direction ... and Black people should not participate in something that's somewhat a "haphazard" movement ... because (and I'm not sure why, but ...just guessing) I believe Yemaya's point (loosely) is that it's somehow 'not worth it' to invest the time and effort in!!

 

(And I could be COMPLETELY wrong here .. and if so, please feel free to correct me!  Both of you!! )

 

But ... it seems as if you're agreeing with her point (which, again, I myself and not necessarily disagreeing with, either ... just trying to understand!!)  But if you are ... and I'm understanding all of this right .... I don't understand the basis on which you're forming this opinion if "the successful black protests through the years" thing isn't really valid!! 

 

I mean .... IMO, Black people have only really "protested successfully" for ONE thing ... and that was equality ... to be recognized as (first) human beings   ... but for the most part, are only fight/demand/demonstration ... especially as far as for something we've "protested" for and were "successful" at ...  was the movement to be seen as equal citizens with equal rights!!  And besides that .... I'm drawing a blank!! 

 

I can't think of anything else that would constitute a fight and a reason why we shouldn't be a part of the present "protest" ... based on PAST issues that we've championed where we can say WE had a valid, coherent, comprehensive direction .. and that makes them better because ... they DON'T!!! 

 

Okay ... and I know this probably sounded REALLY crazy and incoherent ... 'cause I'm typing fast and haven't had a chance to really formulate the response, but .... you've known me long enough that you know what I'm trying to say!!    I'll do some editing, but ... if you can answer me, at this point, please try   ... and tell me why you agree that Black people have an "excuse" to NOT be a part of the protest at this point.

 

If, in fact, that IS the way you feel!! 

Originally Posted by Noah The African:

Sorry....this was just too funny

 

One thing that I have not seen mentioned in all of this necrophilia for Steve Jobs is that the Windowing concept for the Mac came from Xerox Parc where the CORPORATE EXECUTIVES were too stupid to see what they had.  One of their employees told them not to show it to Jobs.

 

Corporations accumulate wealth and build bureaucracies to manage it so they often hire people more intelligent than the managers.  Corporations don't make things people do.  Pretending that the corporation is more important than the people is INSANE.  But that is the neurosis that the corporations want to create.

 

Xum

  This protest is NOT ridiculous at all...from where I stand.  I see too many unemployed families in desperate need of jobs[which have been outsourced to various countries around the world] and it's getting close to the nub: no money for basics:  rent/mortgage/utilities/food/clothing. I know I know some of YOU are not affected by the wrath of America's betrayal......yet!  You are still getting your paychecks regularly, no foreseen threat of downsizing or eliminations of positions or you are working on your own and still making money.....and no one has ROBBED you of your belongings while getting your car...so of course you can say this movement has no pathway, merit or claim and can ask the obvious question....where are the black folks? 

 

What is going on is like quick sand moving sideways i.e. it just hasn't gotten to YOU as of yet.  As why some of yall can form these baseless opinions.  I saw this movement as something that was gonna eventually happen...cuz you just CAN'T take away folks jobs, health care, benefits and then give them an unemployment check of 1/8 of what they used to make expecting them to live off of that for two years and arrogantly say "go away you're annoying me with your whining" while charging them MORE to use their bank accounts.  I call this unempathetic and not really trying to understand something very important to the American lifestyle that can probably or potentially come YOUR way one day. You think it won't?

 

Like a squirrel who prepares for the winter....I see these protesters making a LOUD voice for the winter i.e. voices  preparing for the future: will they live on the streets like paupers, homeless, no education for their kids?  What is gonna happen tomorrow? These are very REAL and REASONABLE concerns. Cuz unemployment checks will only last soooo long.  Then what?   So...for Cain to say what he said the other day is testimony of how many of us feel towards each other[as  black people].  The proof is evident on this board every day.  And I hope for the sake for our children and offsprings, we can put aside our personal belief system and look at the bigger picture that WILL eventually AFFECT us all[as culture, race of people]....one way or another.  Cuz  it's a coming like a predicted hurricane and blacks will make their presence known.  And when an abundance of us start showing up at this rallies across the country.....then the party really gonna be on.  How do I know?  Been there.....done that...but!   I just sayin

Last edited by Kocolicious
Originally Posted by Kocolicious:
Like a squirrel who prepares for the winter....I see these protesters making a LOUD voice for the winter i.e. voices  preparing for the future: will they live on the streets like paupers, homeless, no education for their kids?  What is gonna happen tomorrow? These are very REAL and REASONABLE concerns.

I have been crying in the wilderness for a while.  I can't even tell how many people have read this much less what they thought of it.  It has been on the Web since February of 1999 in one form or another.

 

http://www.toxicdrums.com/econ...s-by-dal-timgar.html

 

Ethical Spectacle has had it since Nov 1999.  The economic wargames get very unstable in transition periods.  I say we are watching the crash of corporate consumerism but many people still believe in it.  And that includes plenty of Black people.

 

Xum

What if corporate America had a protest against the American consumers for preferring to buy all that low cost shit from other countries, instead of the goods and services from well-paid American workers that keep Americans employed and companies profitable?


Instead of blaming corporations for the economic ills, how about blaming your neighbor or you for buying all these foreign made or foreign owned goods. When I go outside the Midwest all I see are foreign cars on the highways. Yes, some foreign auto workers have plants in the US but their total compensation is way below what the Big Three paid its workers, or should I say, “Used” to pay their workers.  Furthermore, the profits from Honda and Toyota, as well as others, are repatriated to their countries into their banks helping to prop up their banking systems. 


It just amazes me that voters and consumers don’t realize they are a large part of the problem via their exercise of freedom of choice. The reason that politics is mucked up is because voters have turned political parties into hypocritical “tribalism” of us against them. One of the main reasons that the economy is mucked up is because American consumers choose to buy foreign goods. Why should corporations think about being patriotic when the American consumer shows no such patriotism?


The American consumer is the most coveted consumer in the world. The American consumer has created millions of jobs in other countries, via their exports and our imports. This nation runs a trade deficit which means we import way more than we export. Oil is a large part of that but durable goods are just as large and growing. Every time we import more than we export, we are transferring jobs and wealth to other nations.  Do you understand those basic Koco, ER and others? It’s not rocket science. Hence, it’s the free market that allows American consumers to choose foreign goods over domestic goods. Therefore, it’s the free choices of American consumers that are undercutting employment in the United States!


They say that corporations are sitting on trillions, but will not hire workers. Well, consumers are denying American workers trillions as well because they could go out and buy American goods.  The reason stimulus cannot get any traction is because when you put money into the hands of Americans they go buy some foreign goods with a large part of it, which helps employ people in other nations.


If this move gains traction it’s going to morph into something totally different as a movement of general discontent with the political and economic system, which is falling apart. People are better served to be protesting NATO actions in Libya and how they went way beyond UN security council resolutions. China and Russia got hip to how the UN is being used for imperialism by creating resolutions that then serve as the pretext for militarism. This is why they just vetoed the latest resolution against Sryia, which pissed the US off because they want to go into Syria which will get Iran involved which gives them the opportunity to attack Iran.

 

Last edited by Noah The African
Originally Posted by Noah The African:

Instead of blaming corporations for the economic ills, how about blaming your neighbor or you for buying all these foreign made or foreign owned goods. When I go outside the Midwest all I see are foreign cars on the highways.

And for how many years were Japanese cars better than American ones.

 

How is it that the nation that put men on the Moon can't come up with a system for testing and specifying the durability and reliability of cars and require all foreign cars to submit to the test to be imported.

 

The problem is that the more complicated the technology becomes the more capitalism screws up but we act like consumers aren't supposed to know any more than they did in 1900.

 

If General Motors started manufacturing what I regarded as a good car I wouldn't go to an auto show to look at it.  In fact I wouldn't go to an auto show.  Haven't been in 30+ years.  Useless variations in antiquated crap.  But even if they made a good car I would just want to know what there was about it that they could not have made 20 years ago.

 

Xum

African Americans should join the protesters on Wall Street and/or around the country in their perspective cities, towns and states.  African Americans have been the hardest hit by this economy and the economic downturn was initiated by Congress and those in big business that they were and still are in collusion with.  The focus of the protest should be on Congress, politicians that have colluded with Big Business and Billionaires to fleece America out of billions/trillions of dollars and deregulated EVERYTHING in this country down to the position it is in now.  The systematic deregulation, under funding and siphoning of the authority of our government agencies that should have the authority to do something about so many areas that are now in turmoil in America has all lead up to where the country is right now:

 

Our food is no longer safe or properly inspected,

there are too many man-made chemicals and pesticides in our food,

too much experimental tampering with our food is allowed, by law,

and we are being priced gauged by the industry,  

our borders and ports are no longer properly protected from terrorists or anything else, our public schools are under funded

they keep cutting student financial while increasing tuition and books,

there are too many people in this country that still don't have access to adequate healthcare,

there are too many people unemployed and under-employed, wages have been keep down too long while necessities have steadily risen,

there is not enough industry left in America to sustain a low unemployment rate, our Supreme Court is now obviously corrupt,

there is still far too much racism in this country fueled and instigated by politicians,

there is still far too much racial profiling and police brutality against Black people in this country,

there are too many politicians that have sold America (and working class/middle class/working poor Americans), out to the highest bidder and are actually still in office.

Sista Sunnubian wrote:  African Americans should join the protesters on Wall Street and/or around the country in their perspective cities, towns and states.  African Americans have been the hardest hit by this economy and the economic downturn was initiated by Congress and those in big business that they were and still are in collusion with.  The focus of the protest should be on Congress, politicians that have colluded with Big Business and Billionaires to fleece America out of billions/trillions of dollars and deregulated EVERYTHING in this country down to the position it is in now..

 

  Amen my sista....amen! 

Originally Posted by Xumbrarchist:
Originally Posted by Noah The African:

Instead of blaming corporations for the economic ills, how about blaming your neighbor or you for buying all these foreign made or foreign owned goods. When I go outside the Midwest all I see are foreign cars on the highways.

And for how many years were Japanese cars better than American ones.

 

How is it that the nation that put men on the Moon can't come up with a system for testing and specifying the durability and reliability of cars and require all foreign cars to submit to the test to be imported.

 

The problem is that the more complicated the technology becomes the more capitalism screws up but we act like consumers aren't supposed to know any more than they did in 1900.

 

If General Motors started manufacturing what I regarded as a good car I wouldn't go to an auto show to look at it.  In fact I wouldn't go to an auto show.  Haven't been in 30+ years.  Useless variations in antiquated crap.  But even if they made a good car I would just want to know what there was about it that they could not have made 20 years ago.

 

Xum


I certainly would not argue against the perception that foriegn goods are often a better VALUE to consumers than American products. In other words, consumers do what is in their best economic interest in regards to value and cost. Thus, are consumers greedy and exploitive (of cheap labor) because they promote low cost good in order to keep more money in their pockets?

 

The consumer is no different from the corporations. The consumer calculates that it keeps more money in their pockets in the long run to buy cheaper or better quality foreign goods. The corporation caluates that it is in their best profit interest to move produciton to a country with less labor cost, less regulation and less taxes. Why should corporations not maximize their economic profit margins, buy going foreign, when consumers can maximize their savings potential by going foreign? Corporations have a reason to look for the best or value just like the consumer.

 

In regards to this protest, I come back to my point. As long as people have the power to change the employment situation in this nation, by their consumer choices, but instead continues to rationalize buying foriegn goods over American goods, this protest against corporations and congress is simply wanting something without willing to give up something. I teach my kids and the kids I mentor the physics of closed systems. Nothing is gained in a closed system unless something else is proportionately lost. Its a zero sum game. Hence, I teach them to never expect to get something without giving up something. I teach them the example of riding a bike. If you want to enjoy coasting and not having to peddle you must first build up your velocity by working extremly hard. The harder  you work....the longer you can coast and the less you work hard the less you get to coast.

 

There is no one out here keeping people from buying American goods instead of foriegn goods. Yes, you might pay more or you might get something of inferior quality to foreign goods, but that is the trade off if one is TRULY concerned about unemployment in this nation. If one is REALLY concerned about the fate of fellow Americans they would be promoting an "buy American campaign" as a personal goal. If one is not, when they can be, then cut the BS....you are really not concerned about the fate of the unemployed because standing in a crowd with a sign is not a sacrafice.

Brotha Xum wrote:   The economic wargames get very unstable in transition periods. 

 

  I agree!

 

I say we are watching the crash of corporate consumerism but many people still believe in it. 

 

That can be outta pure habit.  Something they have been familiar with their whole lives...born into.  Of course it will take time for them to step back and really look at what they have been doing for years....and understand the dysfunction of the pattern/belief system.  When you are use to doing something constant....it turns into a habit.  And people are not willing most times to stop doing something they have been participating in for years. As they say, habits are HARD to break.
 

And that includes plenty of Black people.

 

I agree. But!  I'm just sayin 

Originally Posted by Xumbrarchist:
 

If General Motors started manufacturing what I regarded as a good car I wouldn't go to an auto show to look at it.  In fact I wouldn't go to an auto show.  Haven't been in 30+ years.  Useless variations in antiquated crap.  But even if they made a good car I would just want to know what there was about it that they could not have made 20 years ago.

 

Xum

 

20 years ago they didn't have to make good cars ... because they were STILL able to make a good enough profit off of those hardcore, die-hard "Buy American"-types who don't care about the fact that they are driving an inferior product .... or that they have to get a newer model on or before the 100,000 mark because everything would start falling apart from that point forward!!

 

I've met people here in Texas that have told me that they have NEVER owned anything other than a Ford or Chevy or GMC pickup truck!!  And never will.  Which, I understand completely .... 'cause I've never owned anything other than a Toyota or Honda vehicle myself!!  And probably never will. 

 

Part of the taxpayer bailout agreement that President Obama put in place with 'The Big 3' is that they had to start the process of producing energy efficient cars in the future.  But before they even paid back the bailout money, they were suddenly rolling out cars touting 30+ mpg!!    I just saw a news report that said that Chevy converted an entire truck-making plant into one that is making compacts now.

 

It's not that they couldn't make better cars.  They just didn't want nor have to.

Let’s take what ER said and flip the script. Let’s say that some American company has moved all their production overseas, due to lower labor cost, regulation and taxes. That company then laments how it knows of other companies who foolishly are dedicated to employing Americans and are having a hard time staying afloat because of high labor cost, taxes and regulation. 


The company that has offshored production and jobs would likely be denigrated by a person like ER. ER would use that company as a poster child of why unemployment is high and how corporations are greedy, self-absorbed and don‘t give a damn about the American worker. Why? The rational will be that the corporation is only looking out for its best monetary interest. Yet, in glaring hypocrisy, ER essentially rationalizes the same reasoning as the greedy corporation when she chooses to only buy Honda’s and Toyota’s. Its ok for ER to do what maximizes her monetary interest but it’s not ok for corporations to do the same.
   

The growth of the middle class and the nation’s standard of living was largely the result of unionization in America. Before unions there was egregious profit taking and exploitation which allowed terrible income inequality. The growth of unions brought worker protection and fair wages and allowed for the middle class to boom in America. When the middle class boomed, their disposable income allowed for the purchase of many goods and services which helped the overall economy grow. Today, Union membership is at its lowest level in nearly a century and income inequality today has grown to the levels of nearly a century ago, which is eroding the middle class and economy.


In light of that, what does one make of the personal choices of one Ebony Rose?  ER claims to be one concerned about the loss of American jobs, the decline of the economy and the middle class. How does here personal choices impact the things she says to cares so deep about? Every action produces a reaction so what is the reaction upon the middle class and the economy that ER choices unleash? Well for one, she will argue that Honda and Toyota have plants in the US, which is true, but are not those plants non-union? Are not all the new foreign automakers operating plants in the US non-unionized and don’t pay nearly as much in total compensation (wages, health care, pensions etc)?


It’s the competition from non-unionized non-high pay manufactures and producers that is destroying good paying unionized jobs in American that created the burgeoning middle class. When you replace highly compensated workers with workers who are less well compensated, they have less money to spend in the economy. If people are spending less then there is less demand in the overall economy. In turn, if there is less demand in the overall economy, the production will ramp down to equalize with lower demand, which in turn reduces employment to equalize with lower production need. Thus, while ER wants to vilify the choice of the corporations which hurt the middle class, employment and the economy, she refuses to look in the mirror at the TRUE reflection of how her own behavior is complicit. She is guilty of blatant hypocrisy, if not blatant ignorance.
 

I will repeat what I said in another post. At least half the problem with our political system and economy is rooted in the hypocrisy and or ignorance of the voters and consumers. Its not just about cars either. If people realy wanted to improve employment conditions in America they would go on a buy American personal campaign. You don't have to stand in your downtown with a sign....unless you are just looking for attention and to be a part of some "movement" so that you can say that you were there. If one is TRULY interested in creating jobs in America, and you are consumer with freedom of choice, then start choosing the items made by union labor that creates the good paying jobs creates a strong middle class. If you can rationalize why its not in your best financial interest to do so then SHUT THE F'CK UP WHEN CORPORATIONS COME TO THE SAME RATIONALIZATION AND KEEP AS MUCH OF THE PROFITS THEY CAN AND SEND AS MUCH PRODUCTION OVERSEES THAT THEY CAN!!!! They can rationalize that what YOU would like them to do to promote the economy and American workers is not in their best interest as much as you can rationalize why you will not make the choice that would benefit others than your damn selves.

 

PS

The truth of the matter is that the Big Three in America produced the cars that ARE MOST PROFITABLE FOR THEM!! Their biggest profit margin comes from producing gas guzzlers and pickups.  They lose money on their small car lineup and although forced into having to produce fuel efficient model and electric vehicles, they are LOSING MONEY on these product lines. If the big three went totally to a small car lineup…..they would go out of business like the homeless. The big three’s legacy cost is what was killing their profitability and the cost being shifted to the UAW and the reduction of wages and benefits of new hires, is really what has changed their fate.

Last edited by Noah The African

Sista ER wrote: It's not that they couldn't make better cars.  They just didn't want nor have to.

 

  Exactly!  Cuz they didn't WANT to....because (1) as soon as they got one new model out to the unsuspecting American consumer for the year, they were busy working on two other car models cuz they KNEW they DESIGNED the "new models" to start breaking  down after a 3-5 year period  and didn't concern themselves about this cuz they knew didn't have to be concerned cuz (2) many American people are brainwashed to buy cars every 3-5 years regardless if the cars break down or not.  It's all about making the almighty dollar....and American car makers always had the ability to make cars to last longer than 10 years AND the ability to make cars that are green/gas effecient but again it has always been the focus of fast money and American car makers didn't want to lose that opportunity and cared less about the value or durability they produced as a result.

 

 

As is why Toyota, Honda, Nissan came in and BAM-snatched loyal American carbuyers cuz American buyers suddenly could not pass their cars down to the next generation, keep it for themselves or sell to a satisfied customer cuz many no longer trusted American made cars.  I call this tripping over a dollar to make a dime.  Back  in the day[I know I keep going there...but for a reason] American cars were made sturdy and strong.  Consumers not only could keep them if they wanted....but!  They could passed them[the cars] down to their children or sell it...knowing that the value in it was the fact it was an American made car...and that meant something.  But no more.  Today, many American consumers are leary about purchasing an American car....and we all know why.  And in my opinion, these American carmakers stumbled over their feet due to GREED and temporary profit!  They had the market in their back pockets....in their backyards....didn't have to ship no where....but!  Began caring more about the revenues and less about making a quality product.  So....foreign cars silently slid in and took over by building BETTER cars/trucks.  And we are where we are currently in three ways [1] American consumers brainwashed or convinced that they had to buy a car/truck every three to five years, [2] Many American consumers today prefer foriegn made over American made cars and  [3] although American  car makers have advanced in how they make cars, there are still American consumers  who will not purchase American made cars out of experience/or knowlege that American made cars are deemed and proven inferior-produced vehicles.  But really whose fault is this?  I think American car makers should look in the mirror [do some real financial assesment] to realize that tripping over that dollar to make a few more dimes 20 or so years ago .....doesn't seem to make much economic sense today....NOW does it?  It's not rocket science yall.....but!  I'm just sayin    

 

Originally Posted by Kocolicious:

Sista ER wrote: It's not that they couldn't make better cars.  They just didn't want nor have to.

 

  Exactly!  Cuz they didn't WANT to....because (1) as soon as they got one new model out to the unsuspecting American consumer for the year, they were busy working on two other car models cuz they KNEW they DESIGNED the "new models" to start breaking  down after a 3-5 year period  and didn't concern themselves about this cuz they knew didn't have to be concerned cuz (2) many American people are brainwashed to buy cars every 3-5 years regardless if the cars break down or not.  It's all about making the almighty dollar....and American car makers always had the ability to make cars to last longer than 10 years AND the ability to make cars that are green/gas effecient but again it has always been the focus of fast money and American car makers didn't want to lose that opportunity and cared less about the value or durability they produced as a result.

 

 

As is why Toyota, Honda, Nissan came in and BAM-snatched loyal American carbuyers cuz American buyers suddenly could not pass their cars down to the next generation, keep it for themselves or sell to a satisfied customer cuz many no longer trusted American made cars.  I call this tripping over a dollar to make a dime.  Back  in the day[I know I keep going there...but for a reason] American cars were made sturdy and strong.  Consumers not only could keep them if they wanted....but!  They could passed them[the cars] down to their children or sell it...knowing that the value in it was the fact it was an American made car...and that meant something.  But no more.  Today, many American consumers are leary about purchasing an American car....and we all know why.  And in my opinion, these American carmakers stumbled over their feet due to GREED and temporary profit!  They had the market in their back pockets....in their backyards....didn't have to ship no where....but!  Began caring more about the revenues and less about making a quality product.  So....foreign cars silently slid in and took over by building BETTER cars/trucks.  And we are where we are currently in three ways [1] American consumers brainwashed or convinced that they had to buy a car/truck every three to five years, [2] Many American consumers today prefer foriegn made over American made cars and  [3] although American  car makers have advanced in how they make cars, there are still American consumers  who will not purchase American made cars out of experience/or knowlege that American made cars are deemed and proven inferior-produced vehicles.  But really whose fault is this?  I think American car makers should look in the mirror [do some real financial assesment] to realize that tripping over that dollar to make a few more dimes 20 or so years ago .....doesn't seem to make much economic sense today....NOW does it?  It's not rocket science yall.....but!  I'm just sayin    

 

.

.

.

How times have changed. In the 1960s, Detroit started making smaller cars under duress when the American automakers started seeing the success of the Volkswagen Beetle and later, in the 1970s, the new Toyotas, Nissans and Hondas showing up on U.S. shores. Then, the gas crunch of the mid 1970s moved Detroit to quickly bring out small cars like Dodge Omni, Ford Pinto and Chevy Chevette.



Those small cars sold in big numbers, but the companies weren't happy about it. Because of their low sticker prices, and high labor costs in the U.S., the cars were unprofitable. Automakers gained a customer, but lost money, on practically each one sold. The situation was so bad that Detroit abandoned trying to make their own small cars and outsourced it to Asian companies. Toyota, Suzuki and Isuzu made small cars sold under the Chevy and Geo badges in the 1980s and 90s and into the new century. Kia made the Ford Festiva for the Dearborn, MI automaker in the 1980s.

http://autos.aol.com/article/detroit-small-cars/

 

Do they have like....schools and stuff down there were yaw at......cause I am shocked at how ignorant some of the stuff yaw saying is. Its clear to see how those Jim Crow laws stunted the intellectual growth of older black folks in the South. Did anyone ever teach yaw down there that people go into business TO MAKE A DAMN PROFIT!!

Originally Posted by Kocolicious:
And we are where we are currently in three ways [1] American consumers brainwashed or convinced that they had to buy a car/truck every three to five years, [2] Many American consumers today prefer foriegn made over American made cars and  [3] although American  car makers have advanced in how they make cars, there are still American consumers  who will not purchase American made cars out of experience/or knowlege that American made cars are deemed and proven inferior-produced vehicles.  

 

 

--------------------------------------

 

You got that right, Ms. Koco!!

 

And it's not just us Americans!!!  NOBODY else in the world wants to buy those piece-of-crap American vehicles, either!!  Why??  Because an intelligent, informed consumer wants the best value for their money!!

 

And even more than that ... no consumer in his/her right mind is going to be MORE concerned with the "profit margin" of the company they're buying the product from - making sure that company gets/stays rich, are able to provide their shareholders with a constant flow of increasing profits, is able to sell cheap, inferior products at inflated prices just because it's the "capitalist way" ... than they are with making sure they spend their money wisely, are not being taken advantage of by greed and excess of fat-cat corporations that have no compassion about living in mega-million dollar mansions while you have to sleep in your car!! 

 

We used to say that FORD stood for "Fix Or Repair Daily"  ... 'cause that's what you would see littered all along the freeway than any other car that was being built.

 

Consumers - and especially American consumers - want QUALITY in the products they buy, just as much (if not more) as they want to buy it at a low price.  Most people don't just pick up the "cheapest" thing on the shelf just because it's the cheapest.  (Wal-Mart's inability to shove their product brand on consumers even though it's sometimes dollars cheaper than the name brand product proves that!!)

 

They want a good product at a good price.  And unfortunately, American cars never fit that bill in the past.  They MAY be producing a better, more reliable car NOW .... now that President Obama had to almost literally "arm-twist" them into doing so by threatening to let them go bankrupt of they didn't!!!  But ... only time will tell that!!

 

If more American companies were to start producing products that are worthy of people spending their money on ... instead of putting their focus on to get richer and richer by milking every last dime out of buyer by giving them less (quality) for more (money)  then consumers - both here AND globally - might be more willing to "Buy American."

 

I've driven EVERY car I've ever owned past the 250,000 mile mark!!    And they were all STILL RUNNING when I traded them in for a newer model!!  And until Ford or Chevy can PROVE that they can even MAKE a car that can do that .... it just wouldn't make sense to give them three times the money for three different cars in the same span of time that I can do just once.

LOL....corporations can flip the script and make the same argument in rationalizing why they offshore so many job oversees. Its just amazing how people can be such hypocrits. I am the first to admit that quality did suffer at the Big Three for a very long time and that often its a better financial decision to buy a foreign car. I have absoutlely no problem with the concept of an entity recognizing and choosing what is in their best economic interest. The problem I have is when such individuals have a hissy fit when corporations act in their same base interest by rationalizing that American workers are more costly and that moving production to other low cost countries is in their best financial interest. Why should the consumer who seeks out foreign products for cost savings be viewed as wise and prudent but when the corporation seeks out foreign workers for cost savings they are viewed as evil and selfish?

 

The truth is that the CHOICE of both the corporation and consumer leads to a reduction in jobs and the standard of living of Americans. Two things I really hate and they are flies and hypocrits.

"The problem I have is when such individuals have a hissy fit when corporations act in their same base interest by rationalizing that American workers are more costly and that moving production to other low cost countries is in their best financial interest. Why should the consumer who seeks out foreign products for cost savings be viewed as wise and prudent but when the corporation seeks out foreign workers for cost savings they are viewed as evil and selfish?"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

The problem is not corporations not making a profit.  The problem is the fact that Congress has deregulated away American jobs and American production in the first place, regardless of a corporation's profits, while at the same time, foreign countries that American corporations sold out American jobs and production to, will not allow American manufacturers to flood their consumer markets to the point that 98% of what consumers purchase in their countries is American made.  So, it is not the fault of the consumer that our legislators have sat in high places and deregulated away American production, leaving the vast majority of average Americans with no other options but to purchase foreign made (China) products in the first place.

 

Besides, American corporations did not ship American jobs and production overseas because it was unprofitable to produce products here in America, they shipped American jobs and production overseas in order to exploit desperate people who are willing or are accustomed to having no rights in the workplace and are willing to work for slave wages.  

 

American companies were doing just fine profit-wise, but greed and a lack of loyalty to the United States makes these companies who, for example, make a profit of a $950 million dollars AFTER paying $50 million dollars in wages, overhead and company benefits, move their business overseas in or to keep at least another 40 million in their pockets.  Not only that, but, also so that they can hid their money and profits from the reach of United States tax requirements.  It's like, paying people in America to work for $1.00 an hour, but choosing to move their business overseas in order to be able to pay people there to work for .90 cents an hour, and not even paying taxes on the full .10 cents they are saving by moving their company and production overseas.  

 

It boils down to the fact that the American economy is based on free enterprise, but is supposed to have a system of checks and balances in place to keep producer/worker/consumer aspect fair to America and Americans as a whole, but now those checks and balances have been removed and there has been a fire-sale on American production, flooding American products out of the market all-together. Not only have American corporations sold out Americans to foreign workers and production, but, have also been able to do it on the American tax-payer's dime, because most of these corporations were able to make such a move in the first place because the tax breaks and government subsidies allowed them are funded from tax-payers money and afforded to them by our legislators that they have bought with campaign contributions that are tax deductible, furthering the American tax payers paying for their gain by the fact that every tax deduction and subsidy they receive is recouped from the average tax payer's taxes. 

 

Beside, it is unconstitutional for Congressional members and any other legislators to use their positions to make and change American laws at the dictate of corporations and the influence of billionaires to the detriment of American citizens, however, this is exactly what has happened.

Sista ER wrote:  They MAY be producing a better, more reliable car NOW .... now that President Obama had to almost literally "arm-twist" them into doing so by threatening to let them go bankruptof they didn't!!!  But ... only time will tell that!!

 

 Yep!    Cuz  if the president isn't re-elected to monitor....they will slide this "promise" under the carpet as they have BEEN doing since our financial crisis and during the Bush Adminstration.  So.

 

 

If more American companies were to start producing products that are worthy of people spending their money on ... instead of putting their focus on to get richer and richer by milking every last dime out of buyer by giving them less (quality) for more (money)  then consumers - both here AND globally - might be more willing to "Buy American."

 

Yep!  I remember the saying was " don't buy anything from China etc cuz you KNOW it ain't made right.  And the joke about the "japanese radio."  Now whose product is inferior and the butt of the joke today?  Say whatcha want.....but!  China is making BANK producing goods for other countries-quality or no?  Doesn't matter.  Who's there to compete.  Not us...that's for sure.  We don't give a damn about having quality in our OWN country...let alone somewhere else.  It is evident how we feed our own children...how we are willing to shove anything down our throats as long as it's cheap enough.  Well....that self-destructive mind set has cost us big time-in all areas of people activity.  All.

 

I've driven EVERY car I've ever owned past the 250,000 mile mark!!    And they were all STILL RUNNING when I traded them in for a newer model!!  And until Ford or Chevy can PROVE that they can even MAKE a car that can do that .... it just wouldn't make sense to give them three times the money for three different cars in the same span of time that I can do just once.

 

Yep!  That's right.  And they are STILL doing this knowing the financial environment of the American people.  That's unity for ya.  Hell a lot of dealerships have closed down and folks have lost jobs there too.  So why are they looking with their EYES wide shut?  Where is this money gonna come from if the country keep going in this high unemployment rate?  And WHY aren't they adjusting to the economic crisis affecting all of us?  Where the hell are these critical thinkers white America always bragging about?  The WHOLE country needs to think sensibly.  And we're not.  Instead we are squabbling over non-issues.  America REALLY need to wake the fock up and STOP worry about having a black president.   We need to get busy recovering from the Bushes...by pulling our sleeves up and creating our work goals [even if it's cleaning up the community (with brooms/mops) where we live-start SOMEWHERE!]  Bottom line.  Otherwise....well I hate to even say it....but we're headed to....well!  Yall know.  But!  I'm just sayin   

 
Last edited by Kocolicious

The problem is not corporations not making a profit.  The problem is the fact that Congress has deregulated away American jobs and American production in the first place, regardless of a corporation's profits, while at the same time, foreign countries that American corporations sold out American jobs and production to, will not allow American manufacturers to flood their consumer markets to the point that 98% of what consumers purchase in their countries is American made.  So, it is not the fault of the consumer that our legislators have sat in high places and deregulated away American production, leaving the vast majority of average Americans with no other options but to purchase foreign made (China) products in the first place.


 I don’t know what you mean when you say deregulated away jobs. Most companies seek deregulation and its regulations and taxes that chased companies away. This is why there was first a shift of manufacturing from the North to the South, because companies were seeking the path of least resistance to profits, which are lower labor cost, lower regulation and lower taxes. That said, people VOTE politicians into congress, so it’s the voters fault as well. Remember I said that it is voters and consumers that are at least half the problem via their choices. Voters are too caught up with this left vs. right diversion to notice that it’s not what the two sides disagree on that is the problem, but rather, what the two sides agree with that is causing most problems. For example: NAFTA.


Besides, American corporations did not ship American jobs and production overseas because it was unprofitable to produce products here in America, they shipped American jobs and production overseas in order to exploit desperate people who are willing or are accustomed to having no rights in the workplace and are willing to work for slave wages.
 

Companies are forward looking. They study global trends and the market and project what the market and competition will be a decade or more from now and then start making changes in the present to ensure their profit margins. So although it’s true that companies were making a profit, it does not mean that there profit margins would not have fallen in the long run had they not offshored labor. That said, the same holds true for consumers. It’s not just the poor who buy foreign produced goods, its people with a hell of a lot of money also, if not more. So in other words, there are people middle and upper class who could afford to pay more for higher prices American made goods or who could afford the repair cost of poor quality American made goods, but simply choose to hold onto as much of their money as they can buy buying foreign goods. How is that different from a corporation seeking to hold onto as much of its profits and earnings as it can by choosing to offshore labor cost? It’s not. Each entity is making a cost/quality decision to hold onto as much of their money as they can.

 

American companies were doing just fine profit-wise, but greed and a lack of loyalty to the United States makes these companies who, for example, make a profit of a $950 million dollars AFTER paying $50 million dollars in wages, overhead and company benefits, move their business overseas in or to keep at least another 40 million in their pockets.  Not only that, but, also so that they can hid their money and profits from the reach of United States tax requirements.  It's like, paying people in America to work for $1.00 an hour, but choosing to move their business overseas in order to be able to pay people there to work for .90 cents an hour, and not even paying taxes on the full .10 cents they are saving by moving their company and production overseas.
 

Just because a company is making profits at a given point in time does not mean market condition and competition will remain the same and ensure those profits going forward. GM was making record profits in 2002 and 2003 and then became insolvent less than a decade later. Again, however, my point is that if the consumer shows no loyalty to America then why should the corporation? That’s unfair.
 

It boils down to the fact that the American economy is based on free enterprise, but is supposed to have a system of checks and balances in place to keep producer/worker/consumer aspect fair to America and Americans as a whole, but now those checks and balances have been removed and there has been a fire-sale on American production, flooding American products out of the market all-together. Not only have American corporations sold out Americans to foreign workers and production, but, have also been able to do it on the American tax-payer's dime, because most of these corporations were able to make such a move in the first place because the tax breaks and government subsidies allowed them are funded from tax-payers money and afforded to them by our legislators that they have bought with campaign contributions that are tax deductible, furthering the American tax payers paying for their gain by the fact that every tax deduction and subsidy they receive is recouped from the average tax payer's taxes.


You keep blaming the corporations while ignoring the choices of the consumers that hurt American jobs as well. You also keep ignoring the role of the voters who is blinded by left vs right diversion to notice that the problem is more rooted in what the two parties agree with rather than disagree with, like NAFTA. Democrats will not hold Democrats feet to the fire over NAFTA, but would rather Hold Republicans feet to the fire for doing things that the Democrats disagree with…..that’s really not the damn problem. Voters are just picking sides instead of understanding the real problem and attacking BOTH PARTIES.

 
Beside, it is unconstitutional for Congressional members and any other legislators to use their positions to make and change American laws at the dictate of corporations and the influence of billionaires to the detriment of American citizens, however, this is exactly what has happened.


None of that changes the fact that consumer choice plays are large role in the fate of the American workers, but the consumer does not want to accept any responsibility and just wants to blame corporation and congress (who they voted for). Think about, no matter how the two parties muck up……most people are always going to vote for them. Hence, there is no incentive for their behavior to change because voters feel they have no choice……when they do…..which is to not vote or vote for a third party.

THIS is MUCH MORE of a major factor in the killing of American jobs than the ridiculously lame notion that "Americans won't buy American" will fix everything!!    At the same time and on the same day that the Senate did not pass the President's Job Bill ... they DID manage to become bi-partisan enough to be able to pass this!!

 

However .... this story came - and was buried - faster than it took for Linda Blair's head to do two full revolutions around on her neck!!! 

 

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Senate Approves Bill to Punish China for Currency

 

 

Yuan bill moves to House of Representatives, but many believe it could spark a trade war

 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) — The Senate approved a controversial bill aimed at forcing China to raise the value of the yuan in an effort to save American jobs, sending it to the House of Representatives where its fate is uncertain.

 

Beijing has warned the legislation could spark a trade war but the bill has advanced further than similar ones in the past, reflecting widespread frustration with China's trade policies and how U.S. lawmakers have seized on voter anxiety about high unemployment ahead of elections in 2012.

 

The vote on Tuesday "has put the Chinese on notice: 'Stop your cheating that is costing our country jobs, or you will face the consequences,'" said Democratic Senator Charles Schumer, one of the bill's co-sponsors.

 

China was quick to respond. The Foreign Ministry said the bill was a protectionist step and warned that its passage could disrupt joint efforts by the world's two biggest economies to prop up the global recovery. It urged the Obama administration to oppose the legislation.

 

[Check out our editorial cartoons on President Obama.]

 

China's central bank said the yuan is not the primary cause of China's trade surplus with the United States that Washington puts are more than $250 billion.

 

The People's Bank of China added that any gains in the yuan would not improve the American jobs market, where the unemployment rate remains stubbornly above 9 percent, or help the United States tackle its trade deficit.

 

Many U.S. economists say China holds down the value of its yuan to give its exporters an edge in global markets. China says it is committed to gradual currency reform and points to a 30 percent rise in the yuan against the dollar since 2005.

 

The bill would allow the U.S. government to slap duties on products from countries found to be subsidizing their exports by undervaluing their currencies.

 

The yuan fell against the dollar in early trade on Wednesday, as investors worried a Sino-U.S. trade dispute could cause a Chinese retaliation to stop the yuan's steady appreciation.

 

The Senate's 63-35 vote puts the bill in the hands of the Republican-controlled House. However, it may never vote on the bill despite rank-and-file support.

 

House Speaker John Boehner last week said it would be "dangerous" for Congress to get involved with a foreign country's exchange rate.

 

[See a collection of political cartoons on the budget and deficit.]

 

That stance prompted House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi to accuse Boehner of "thwarting the will of the House."

 

Even if the House passes the bill, a final decision would rest with Obama. Signing it would anger China, whose cooperation the United States needs both on the economic front and in global hot spots such as North Korea and Iran.

 

But vetoing the bill would not play well in industrial heartland states like Ohio and Michigan, and could undercut Obama's bid for a second term in next year's presidential election.

 

'FRUSTRATION'

 

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said the fate of the bill was unclear but its message expressed the country's mood.

 

"I don't know whether this bill in the form that it's passing the Senate will ever end up as a piece of legislation coming from the Congress," Clinton told Reuters in an interview. "But it does reflect a great deal of frustration on the part of the American people."

 

A leading Republican presidential candidate, Mitt Romney, on Tuesday repeated his vow to crack down on China over currency on his first day in office if elected.

 

A key provision of the Currency Exchange Rate Oversight Reform Act of 2011 would require the Commerce Department to consider whether undervalued currencies act as an effective export subsidy that would justify the United States applying countervailing duties in response.

 

Obama, who has preferred dialogue with China to punitive measures, last week said China was "gaming" the international trade system. He has not taken a formal position on the bill and cautioned that it must be compatible with World Trade Organization rules.

 

Boehner has the power to block the bill, even though its backers say it has 225 House co-sponsors, including 61 Republicans, enough to ensure its passage if it came to a vote.

 

Lloyd Wood, a spokesman for the Fair Currency Coalition, said supporters would keep pressing at "the grass roots level" to demand action on the bill.

 

"If you can persuade enough rank-and-file Republicans, they're going to ask leadership for a vote and at the end of the day we think that's what's going to happen," Wood said.

 

Senator Rob Portman, an Ohio Republican and former U.S. trade negotiator, told Reuters he supported the legislation, even though he preferred the Obama administration lead a multilateral effort to pressure China to revalue the yuan.

 

[Read more about the deficit and national debt.]

 

"This is an opportunity to raise the visibility of the issue and to encourage the administration to address it more vigorously."

 

China has mounted an intense lobbying effort in Washington to kill the legislation.

A 12-member "Congressional Liaison Team" inside the Chinese embassy has been meeting with aides to key lawmakers, making phone calls to congressional offices and speaking to the White House on the issue, according to Chinese and U.S. officials.

 

The U.S. Treasury Department faces a statutory deadline on Sunday to release a semi-annual report on whether any country is manipulating its currency for an unfair trade advantage.

 

In five previous reports, the Obama administration has stopped short of formally labeling China a manipulator, which would require it to pursue stepped-up negotiations aimed at getting Beijing to revalue the yuan.

Correction, Noah ....

 

I COULD explain my "repudiation" of that nonsense you're talking - and I DO, in fact, have one!!  But I choose NOT to waste spend my time discussing this - or pretty much any other - issue with you!!  Now or ever.  And that's just the way that is. 

 

There's plenty of other people here willing to read your musings and to try to intelligently dialog with you ... and that's great!! I'm happy for you!!!  But, I'm not one of those people.  

 

And it's simply because I DON'T WANT to.  I COULD ... but it's really not at the top of my list of compelling things to do when I'm here on the Board. 

 

Now, you can believe that or not.  I'm sure you prefer to rationalize that I have no "intellectual" response to the things you have to say. And ... whatever!!  That's fine!! Whatever floats your boat, NTA!!! 

 

But, if we're dealing with the TRUTH here ...that wouldn't be it!!   I called your idea "ridiculously lame" ... because it IS!!  "Americans" - like Black people- are not as ignorant as YOU think!!  There are issues other than our "stupidity" for the high rate of unemployment.  But, I'm sure you don't believe that either.  And I simply don't care that you think so.

 

It's as plain and simple as that.

Originally Posted by EbonyRose:

Correction, Noah ....

 

I COULD explain my "repudiation" of that nonsense you're talking - and I DO, in fact, have one!!  But I choose NOT to waste spend my time discussing this - or pretty much any other - issue with you!!  Now or ever.  And that's just the way that is. 

 

There's plenty of other people here willing to read your musings and to try to intelligently dialog with you ... and that's great!! I'm happy for you!!!  But, I'm not one of those people.  

 

And it's simply because I DON'T WANT to.  I COULD ... but it's really not at the top of my list of compelling things to do when I'm here on the Board. 

 

Now, you can believe that or not.  I'm sure you prefer to rationalize that I have no "intellectual" response to the things you have to say. And ... whatever!!  That's fine!! Whatever floats your boat, NTA!!! 

 

But, if we're dealing with the TRUTH here ...that wouldn't be it!!   I called your idea "ridiculously lame" ... because it IS!!  "Americans" - like Black people- are not as ignorant as YOU think!!  There are issues other than our "stupidity" for the high rate of unemployment.  But, I'm sure you don't believe that either.  And I simply don't care that you think so.

 

It's as plain and simple as that.

 

Actually my response was rhetorical. I asked the question knowing full well that there was not an answer to refute my claims and even if there was an answer, I knew full well that you would not know what that answer is or was. When one presents the truth....there is nothing left to present to counter it. One does not need to be very smart to know that buying American goods creates and sustains demand for American production, which creates and sustains demand for American workers to produce the goods and if it union work...it puts more money into the hands or workers who then spend that extra income further creating employment opportunities in retail and services. The opposite occurs when one buys foreign goods or goods produced by non-union labor by foreign producers in the US.

 

 

Now, I never said that it was in the best interest of the individual to do this if they are looking to hold onto as much of their money as possible, whether poor or rich. My only point was the hypocrisy of people like you crying about how bad the economy is and how corporation should be promoting the American worker and employment in the US, when they can keep more of their profits and or stay in the black via using foreign labor as consumers use foreign goods. There is no come back to the fact that your position is hypocritical and that you don’t want to change what benefits YOU, in your own selfishness, but you want the corporations to change what benefits them so you can continue to do what benefits you. Well, not surprisingly the corporations are saying to hell with American workers and you…..just like you are saying to hell with GM, Ford , Chrysler and a host of other American producers and union workers. The end result in trade deficts, declining wages, declining employment and growing income inequality between the rich and poor. Its a race to the bottom and your fully complicit in it with your personal consumer choices.

 
AS funny as it may be, it's a mischaracterization of that the protesters seem to be saying.  Would this kind of thing have been funny during "Arab Spring" when protesters brought down a president in Egypt?  Afterall they were using Twitter, cellphones, and various products.
 
It would be an injustice to describe this as just a bunch of anti-capitalist hippies, ESPECIALLY given the damage that the banking/financial sector and corporate dominance has done to american citzenry and politics.
 
Why shouldn't they be out there protesting for wallstreet to be held accountable for a worldwide economic crisis?  
 
 
Originally Posted by Noah The African:

Sorry....this was just too funny

 

Originally Posted by sunnubian:

African Americans should join the protesters on Wall Street and/or around the country in their perspective cities, towns and states.  African Americans have been the hardest hit by this economy and the economic downturn was initiated by Congress and those in big business that they were and still are in collusion with.  The focus of the protest should be on Congress, politicians that have colluded with Big Business and Billionaires to fleece America out of billions/trillions of dollars and deregulated EVERYTHING in this country down to the position it is in now.  The systematic deregulation, under funding and siphoning of the authority of our government agencies that should have the authority to do something about so many areas that are now in turmoil in America has all lead up to where the country is right now:

 

Our food is no longer safe or properly inspected,

there are too many man-made chemicals and pesticides in our food,

too much experimental tampering with our food is allowed, by law,

and we are being priced gauged by the industry,  

our borders and ports are no longer properly protected from terrorists or anything else, our public schools are under funded

they keep cutting student financial while increasing tuition and books,

there are too many people in this country that still don't have access to adequate healthcare,

there are too many people unemployed and under-employed, wages have been keep down too long while necessities have steadily risen,

there is not enough industry left in America to sustain a low unemployment rate, our Supreme Court is now obviously corrupt,

there is still far too much racism in this country fueled and instigated by politicians,

there is still far too much racial profiling and police brutality against Black people in this country,

there are too many politicians that have sold America (and working class/middle class/working poor Americans), out to the highest bidder and are actually still in office.

i agree.  African AMericans should join.

  Yep that's right Brotha Xum....as we all know in Alegbra what you do on one side, you have to do on the other side.  So if the rich is getting bennies....and we're not, that's no an equal economy.  Nope.  And why today everything looks sooooooooo 60s, cuz the sleeping giants have finally WOKE up.  'Bout time.  They are no longer willing to let these elites walk all over them....using their tax paying dollars.  They finally get that they too have POWER.  Has nothing to do with the look, the status, the pretendin to be something they are obviously not....but!  Has everything to do with surviving day to day livin'.  And that my friend...is the bottom line.  Personally, I'm happy to see this.  Maybe this is a new era....an evolution of common sense CHANGE which will affect REAL people. Well...this is my hope.  But!  I'm just sayin  

Well ... although I'm usually the "optimist" here ... at this point, I don't really see any 'progress' on the horizon coming out of this movement. 

 

I was reading an article the other day (which seems to have disappeared from the Net!) that chronicled the beginning of this movement ... from the first "Tweet."  It was frightening how they were able to trace the "Occupy Wall Street" hashtagfrom the first time it appeared, knowing exactly who used it, how often, who they sent it to, who re-tweeted it, whether or not they passed it on and to whom.  For some people they gave personal details, like what they did for a living, where they lived, what kinds of other organizations they were involved with.

 

There's just NO such thing as privacy anymore, if you're a part of a social network.

 

Anyway, I think the first-ever Tweet was posted in July.   Nothing happened for weeks until someone on some other continent picked it up and tried again.  Again, it went dead. That went on until mid-September, when someone tweeted it and then 8 other people picked it up and ran with it.  From one of those 8 it got to one of the college students who got with two others and decided to Occupy Wall Street.  And so the movement began.

 

However ... unlike the "so 60's" movements, this one has no purpose.  In the 60s - and with Black people as the participants, we AT LEAST had a goal ... specific demands ... a "game plan", if you will to make our protest MEAN something ... and for something MEANINGFUL and CONCRETE to come out of it.

 

Today's protest, started by the three (I'm guessing White) college students was not even STARTED with the intent of being ABLE to effect any real change or achieve any specifically viable goal!!   

 

They simply decided to be pissed off at "Wall Street" .... and to let Wall Street know it by sitting in front of their offices for a couple of months.  But ... it's not like being pissed off MATTERS to "Wall Street.  They couldn't give LESS of a damn about somebody's hurt or angry feelings!!!  They only care about taking your money (getting rich) ... and a "pissed off" attitude (whether it's three or thousands of people)  can't/won't/isn't going to do anything to STOP that!!

 

Only legislation can or will stop corporate plundering.  And with no plan by this "movement" - either in the beginning or up to now - to enact a way to force that to come about ... this is essentially a movement that has no teeth, will not bring about "change", and ends up being just a congregation of pissed off people!!!  And, again, what good does/will/can that really do?? 

 

And, I hate to say it, but ... this is really kind of indicative of this new "Tweet" generation.  And I'm not just talking about the Black youth this time ... but this generation as a WHOLE ... that has the tendency to just impulsively act on the first thought that may pop into their heads ... without considering any consequences or what comes next or how to make sure there is - or even consider that there might be - a positive outcome to it .... before they do it!!

 

To THIS DAY there is no plan to take advantage of the best opportunity in DECADES to fight against (governmental/corporate, economic, social, educational, employment, and the list goes on) injustices - which, with the "so 60s" CRM there was specific intent to fight against civil injustices for Black people.  But with this group??  The "leaders" of this thing (although they don't want to be called that!), even after all this time, are all but REFUSING to take advantage of the opportunity to make a formidable plan for any kind of beneficial, progressive, effective, CHANGE in policy and the ACTIONS of the people/entities that they claim to be pissed off and (most importantly)fed up" with!! 

 

As I've come to understand it, the plan has ALWAYS been simply to "draw attention" to the inequities of the economic and wealth gap between those "1%" of the rich and the "99%" of everybody else.

 

Well, for all the good that'll do ... they could have "drawn" that attention on a piece of paper ... and left it at that. 

"Well, for all the good that'll do ... they could have "drawn" that attention on a piece of paper ... and left it at that.  "

___________________________________________________________________

 

 

 

 

 

It is beginning to look like that is all they are doing.  I still have my fingers crossed that this will lead to political organization across the country to replace ALL members of congress that work for corporate American INSTEAD of for the People or for the good of Both in the next election.

 

We cannot have a congress that only works for 1% of the population.

 

We cannot have congress that is in cahoots with those that are out to destroy America.

 

We cannot have congress that wants to rake in all of the revenues of working Americans only to divvy it all up among the richest 1% and corporate interests.  

 

A democracy does not work with the scales grossly imbalanced.

 

It seems to me like a covert plan to overthrow this country by economic ruin.

 

People have got to open their eyes and brush up on their "Civics" and understand that when things are unfair in this country on a national scale, the fault lies with Congress.  

 

It is not enough to blame the millionaires and billionaires and multi-billion dollar corporation, it is not enough to only blame Wall Street, ALL of the blame does not lie with either, or with only ONE place or entity, the primary blame lies with our Congressional politicians that have created all of the tax loopholes, government subsidies, and immunity that the likes of Wall Street enjoys at the tax payers expense.  

 

Until The People protest in mass at the ballot box, as well as on the streets, and by boycotting spending with all of the entities that Congress has so entitled, by refusing to purchase non-American produced products, taking their money out of big banks, stop investing in Wall Street, no amount of gathering is going to change things.  

 

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