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Introduction to Voodoo in Haiti'

By Bob Corbett, March 1988

Note of July 16, 1995. This paper is 7 years old. It is due for a revamping. I decided to use it here and then revise it partially on the basis of the responses to it. It's not that I think there's anything wrong with the position here, it's just that I've read a great deal since 1988, been to more services, talked with more serveteurs and so on. So, I'm ready to update. Soon.

Bob


IMPORTANT
First and foremost Voodoo is a religion. It is the dominant religion of Haiti. Many of the practices and descriptions of Voodoo belief may sound to us like rank superstition, but then, imagine the beliefs of Christianity to people who know nothing about it. Tell them about the trinity or the resurrection, or the presence of Jesus in the eucharist. Any of these practices which very intelligent Christians believe in the fullest would seem no less superstitious to someone unfamiliar with Christianity.

Thus I urge you to recognize that Voodoo is Haiti's religion, it is taken very seriously not merely by unlettered peasants, but many intelligent and learned members of the Haitian society believe as sincerely in Voodoo as do German theology professors in their Christianity. In no way do I expect you to believe in Voodoo; no more than I would expect you to convert to Islam if I taught a course on that religion. But, please do recognize that it is every bit as real a religion as the major religions of the world.

1. The most basic concepts of Voodoo

1. There is one God, Bondye. This God is very similar to the God of Islam, Judaism and Christianity. There is only one God.

2. There are three important categories of other spiritual beings:

*Loa. These are the various spirits of family members; the spirits of the major forces of the universe--good, evil, reproduction, health, all aspects of daily life.
-Loa interact with the people of earth.
-They mount people now and again during religious ceremonies and they give messages, and even cause various good and bad things to happen to people.

*The twins. A curious and rather mysterious set of forces of contradictories: good and evil, happy and sad etc. If honored now and again in religious services they will tend to help you have the better side of life.

*The dead. Mainly the souls of one's own family members who have died but have not yet been reclaimed by the family. Ignored family dead are dangerous. Honored and cared for family dead are helpful.

3. The central and key aspect of Voodoo is healing people from illness. Such healing activities probably constitute 60% of all Voodoo activity. Healers heal with herbs, faith healing (with the help of loa and other spirits) and, today, even with western medicine!

4. The priesthood of Voodoo contains both men (houngan) and women (mambo). Their functions are:

*healing.
*performing religious ceremonies to call or pacify the spirits.
*holding initiations for new priests(tesses) (kanzo service and *taking the ason).
*telling the future and reading dreams.
*casting spells and creating protections.
creating potions for various purposes (From love spells to death spells).

For any of these they may receive fees. But, they may not too. This differs from one houngan and mambo to another. (Note his is similar to fees paid to rabbis, mullahs, priests and ministers.)

5. Another central feature of Voodoo is the service, the religious rites of the religion.

*These are usually held outside, under a rough roof and around the poto mitan, the center pole. A houngan or mambo almost always directs these.
*Drums are used extensively to provide music and dancing is absolutely essential to the whole service.
*Services are fully participatory. Not only the houngan and mambo participate but nearly everyone present.
-A master of ceremonies (La Place) is often present.
-A hounganikon directs the music and motion.
-Hounsi (women only) are serving ladies, usually dressed in white.
-Those in attendance are nearly all participants and most can be mounted by loa.

*In most services the loa mount people. That is, they come and take over a person's body for a time. When the loa come the person is gone. (It's not clear where the person goes.) The body is the body of the person, but it is really the loa. If a male loa mounts a female person, he is referred to as he, not she, during the mounting.

*Nearly every Voodoo service has animal sacrifice. By killing the animal one releases life. The loa are exhausted by the taxing task of running the universe. Thus they can receive this life sacrificed to them and are re-juvenated. They are usually quite happy about this.

6. There are two primary sorts of Voodoo.

*Rada. This is a family spirit Voodoo and the Voodoo of the relatively peaceful and happy loa.
*Petro (in some areas called Congo.) This is a black magic Voodoo and the Voodoo of angry, mean and nasty loa. *Dangerous things happen in Petro including death curses, the making of zombi and wild sexual orgies.

SPECIAL NOTE By virtually all scholarly estimates one can find, rada accounts for about 95% of Voodoo, if not more. Thus the spectacular tales of black magic, while very real, are extremely limited. Petro is not the typical Voodoo, but it does exist.

7. The analysis of humans. Humans have two spirits and a body.

*ti-bon-ange (little good angel). This is similar to the conscience in the Western understanding of people.
*gros-bon-ange (big good angel). This is similar to the soul in Western theories of person, except the soul is much more separate from the person than is a western soul. For example, when the person goes before God for judgment it is the gros-bon-ange which presents the person to God and makes the person's case.


Key terms in Voodoo

hounfo
the parish or region of a houngan or mambo's influence.

govi
a small earthen bottle into which the gros-bon-ange of dead ancestors can rescued. After a person dies the gros-bon-ange goes to the underwater place. A year and a day after he or she goes their the relatives can recall the gros-bon-ange. Unfortunately this is a very expensive service, requiring a significant animal sacrifice, often an ox. Thus it is often considerable time before the service can be done. If too much time passes the ancestor may get a bit restless and cause trouble--illness etc.

serviteurs
serious practitioners of Voodoo.

ason
the magic rattle of the houngan or mambo.

lave tet
(washing of the head) an initiation ceremony held for serviteurs after they have been mounted for the first time.

kanzo
the initiation ceremonies for those moving into a very serious level of Voodoo practice.

taking of the ason
the final initiation into being a houngan or mambo.

NOTE: Both kanzo and the taking of the ason are very secret services. However, in Alfred Mtraux's book (VOODOO IN HAITI), through observation and talking with people who were not too careful about the secrecy of kanzo, he has pieced together a detailed account of the ceremony.

verve
ceremonial drawings done in flour, of the various loa.

peristyle
the Voodoo temple. A tiny tiny place.

poto mitan
the center pole in a Voodoo peristyle. It represents the center of the universe and all dancing revolves around the poto mitan.

Les Invisibles
all spirits.

Les Mysteries
1--the loa themselves.
2--sacred knowledge. Also called konesans.


The crossroads.
A central image in Voodoo. This is the place where the two worlds (earth and spirit world) meet. Virtually all Voodoo acts, even healing, begin with the acknowledgment of the crossroads.


Some of the central loa in the Voodoo pantheon

Legba.
An old man who is the gatekeeper between the two worlds, world of earth and the world of the Invisibles. He is the origin of life. The sun is one of his symbols, but he is also the source of regeneration and uses the symbol of the phallus.

Kalfu
(crossroads) is the Petro counterpart to Legba. He is the spirit of the night, the origins of darkness. The moon is his symbol. He can be placated, but is a dangerous loa.

Papa Ghede.
Loa of death and resurrection. A total clown. Very erotic and comic. He is the lord of eroticism.

Dumballah.
The father figure. He is the good snake. The source of peace and tranquillity. The egg is offered to him when he comes to mount a person. He is much loved and sought after. His wife Aida-wedo attends him.

Agw.
The sovereign of the seas. Especially honored, as one might well expect, by people who live near the sea.

Ogoun.
The warrior. Today, too, the force of politics. Violent.

Erzulie.
The earth mother. Spirit of the goddess of love. The muse of beauty. (Strongly identified with the Virgin Mary.) Her appearance (when she mounts someone) is one of cleansing, dressing, delicate foods daintily eaten. She can read the future in dreams. A much loved loa.


The FATALISM of Voodoo

Voodoo is much criticized by foreigners in Haiti. Sometimes it is simply because they profess a competing religion and don't want the people to stay with Voodoo. At other times they charge that it is devil worship. This claim is sheer nonsense when speaking of Rada Voodoo, the numerically primary form. It is less clear how to describe Petro. There are no devils in Voodoo, but Petro ultivates the evil spirits.

However, many of the non-religious aspects of Voodoo which people often criticize really seem to me to be more the result of Voodoo's overwhelming fatalism. The view is that to an astonishing degree the loa determine our lives. The Haitian serviteur has little use for anything like the Western idea of free will and personal responsibility. Rather, whatever has happened it is the loa who have caused it.

If one would like to change anything in one's life, from a current illness to the fundaments of the social system, one must ask the loa. One does not ACT on one's own. This would be counter-productive since it is the loa who decide these things anyway.

Further, the loa are not very changeable. Things are the way they are because the loa have decided it. This fatalism contributes significantly to the peasants' unwillingness to struggle for liberation. However, one can must the hard question: Is it Voodoo that has caused Haitian fatalism, or is it the history of the African/Haitian experience that has created Voodoo's fatalism?


Voodoo's relationship to Christianity

1. The Catholic experience.

*Under the French slaves were forbidden from practicing Voodoo. Nonetheless Voodoo survived. The colonists did allow occasional dances on the weekends. These dances were actually Voodoo services!
*After the liberation of 1804 all white people were kicked out of Haiti and many were killed. This included Roman Catholic priests. Thus in 1804 the Vatican broke with Haiti and did not establish relations with her again until 1860.
*During this 56 year period houngans and mambos built up the public religion of Haiti, Voodoo, in a weird amalgamation of African spirit religion and Catholicism. Virtually all loa became associated with Catholic saints (Dumballah the snake loa is St. Patrick; Erzulie, the earth mother is the Virgin Mary). The most important consequence of this is that Haitians see nothing odd at all with practicing Voodoo and Catholicism side by side and are often very devout about each of them.

I can't explain this, I only describe it.

*From time to time from 1860 until the late 1940s the Catholic Church waged campaigns against Voodoo. They never came to anything.
*In 1949 some elements of the Catholic Church waged an all out physical, holy war against Voodoo. They burned peristyle, Voodoo shrines, beat (some say even killed) houngans and mambo, demanded their ostracism from society and shot things up. But, they lost. Voodoo went under-ground to some extent, but it grew in popularity, in large measure because of the oppression.
*By the early 1950s the Catholic hierarchy halted this war, got rid of these priest warriors and made their peace with Voodoo. Voodoo drums and melodies were incorporated into Catholic church services. The Catholics took the position, if you can't defeat them, co-opt them. Relative peace has held between the Catholics and serviteurs ever since.

2. The Protestants.

*Until the 1970s Haiti was nearly 100% Catholic.
*In the 1970s evangelical Protestantism came to Haiti. After Reagan came to power evangelization mushroomed.
*Evangelical Protestants are bitter enemies of Voodoo and denounce it all the time as devil worship. Many of these people claim that Haiti's misery is because she is being punished by God for the sins of her Voodoo serviteurs.
*Protestantism has come to Haiti as a serious business. Evangelical Protestants groups own 7 of Haiti's 11 radio stations and have made significant gains in conversions.
*Today most observers believe that at least 15% of the Christians in Haiti are Protestant evangelicals.


http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43a/010.html
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Santeria,
A Practical Guide to
Afro-Caribbean Magic.


By Luis M. Nuñez


Introduction

Santeria is not an archaic religion. It is a vibrant force with five hundred years of continuous history in the Western Hemisphere. Its African roots go back at least as far as Christianity's.
Santeria has millions of followers spread across the United States, the Caribbean, Central, and South America. There is Voodoo in Haiti, Macumba in Brazil and Candomble in the Northern coasts of South America. Its adherents come from all walks o f life; doctors, lawyers, politicians, thieves and pimps. All those who seek the power to control their own lives and want to lead them in accord with the deepest parts of their beings are candidates for initiation into Santeria. As the traditional belief systems of the Western world cease to provide a direct emotional involvement with the mysteries of life, more and more people are turning to the throbbing of the Santeria drums. It is a religion of trance, mystery, posse ssion, blood and sex. What follows is a brief glimpse into Santeria. If you want to know more, go to the ceremonies, burn the candles and dance to the drums. Skin color or language are no barriers. The ancient gods will recognize their own.


http://w3.iac.net/%7Emoonweb/Santeria/TOC.html
MACUMBA


"Macumba" (also known as Quimbanda) is the everyday term used by Brazilians in Rio de Janeiro to describe two types of African spirit worship: Candomble (followed in northern State of Bahia) and Umbanda (a newer form originating in Niteroi, in the southern State of Rio de Janeiro between 1900 and November 15, 1908).

Macumba originated with African slaves shipped to Brazil in the 1550's, who continued to worship their African Gods. Their Gods are called ORIXAS. The slaves incorporated their religion into Brazilian culture and religion (Roman Catholic). They summoned their Gods with their drums. Brazilian slave owners, unlike owners in the United States, allowed slaves to continue to use their drums. Thus began the rhythm of the saints, the samba, and it explains why Brazilian "batucadas" reign unequaled today. Brazil got the samba, and the U.S. got "the blues." Read more on Brazilian slavery and its impact on Brazil.

Brazil already had many religions in the sixteenth century. The Roman Catholic Church tried to convert the local Indian tribes, and to get them to abandon their native beliefs. Slave owners prohibited slaves from practicing their African form of worship, so the slaves incorporated their beliefs into the spirits and the magic of the native faiths. The two merged. The God, Exú, became St. Anthony; Iansã became St. Barbara; Iemanjá became Our Lady of the Glory; Naña became Our Lady of St. Anne; Oba became Joane of Arc; Obaluayê became St. Lazarus/St. Roque; Ogum became St. George; Oxalá became Jesus Christ; Oxossi became St. Sebastian; Oxum became Our Lady of the Conception; Oxumaré became St. Bartholomew; and Xangó became St. Geronimo. So while the slaves outwardly followed the Catholic faith, they secretly practiced their African religious beliefs until they were freed in 1888.

The following history of Macumba is reprinted from the Brazilian Embassy's web site in London and authored by Rubem César Fernandes (note the differences in the dates of origin):

"The first recorded mention of Umbanda comes in the 1920's in Niterói, Rio de Janeiro, the state where in 1941 the First Congress of Umbanda Spiritualism was organized. The first references, however, also mentioned "Macumba", with the idea of differentiating between them, thus showing the pre-existence of similar practices. Many initiatives, independent of hierarchical control, made possible a rapport between elements of Catholicism, Kardecist Spiritualism and Afro-Brazilian traditions. A new religious genealogy emerged from this confusion, but showed that it was divided between the names "Umbanda" and "Quimbanda" or, more popularly, "Macumba".

Although they share the same set of beliefs, the two names reflect a difference in emphasis. Umbanda supposedly works "for good," while Quimbanda is distinguished by its intention to work "for evil." This is a simplistic interpretation, however, because the ambivalence between good and evil seems, in reality, to be characteristic of the fundamental myths of this strand of religion, which conceives of the cosmos as divided between different factions, which relate to each other through mystical attacks and defenses. As in the struggles of love and other competitive situations, what is good for one party may be bad for the other, and vice versa.

The mythology of Umbanda has a clear sense of hierarchy. Religious beings are divided into seven "Lines," commanded by an orixá or Catholic saint. The lines are subdivided into "Phalanxes" and "Legions," which are made up of disembodied spirits in various stages of evolution. The main altar, which is known as "Conga," is usually decorated with large numbers of images and objects, illustrating the complexity of the Umbanda pantheon. The altars may have images of Christ, the Guide, Our Lady, saints such as St. Lazarus, St. George, SS Cosmas and Damian, orixás, 'pretos velhos', 'caboclos', candles, necklaces, flowers and sometimes non-religious icons, such as the Brazilian flag. Umbanda started between the wars, at a time of strong nationalism, and sees itself as a patriotic religion.

The cult centers around the "Gira," involving sacred music and dance. The drums mark out the rhythm, and the mediums chant the "ponto" under the leadership of the Mother or the Father of the Saint, dance in a circle and receive their spiritual guides, acting as their "horses" or "machines." Besides expressing their vital energy in dance, as in Candomblé, the Umbanda guides are there to counsel those devotees who approach them. They guide them and purify them by "passes" with their hands, which protects them against mystical attack to which they are subject.

The Mother and some of the more senior daughters of the saint receive devotees for consultations, which they do whilst "embodied" by their guides. Umbanda Centers are thus centers for evaluating and resolving a multitude of conflicts which assail people in their daily lives. They specialize in identifying the causes of unhappiness, and are well versed in local social psychology. They help to explain the problem and invest it with a higher meaning. The competitive round of daily life, where inequalities breed envy and resentment, results in the development of evil spells, or simply negative vibrations
which do harm. The people of Umbanda (one might say, in large measure, the people of Brazil) take the "evil eye" seriously.

Umbanda is a notable cultural development, bringing to the interpretation and resolution of conflicts a cast of "marginal" characters, as opposed to the dominant symbolic hierarchies: fearless 'caboclos,' who personify the untamed depths of the forest; 'pretos velhos,' old black slaves with a life time of labour behind them, who have the realist wisdom gained from a life of suffering; 'exus' and 'pombas giras,' identified with people of the street, who do not hide behind conventional social masks and who move easily through the tortuous ways of human conflict; and children, who have not yet reached the age of reason. These are the guides who give protection and advice. They are far from official authority, be it secular or religious, and possess powers outside the realms of traditional bureaucratic structures. Such powers are usually discarded by official ideologies, but find a home in Umbanda, where they can give a positive meaning to experience and destiny.


http://www.stirlinglaw.com/ea/macumba.htm

[This message was edited by Afroman on November 02, 2003 at 10:02 PM.]
Actually I am thinking about writing a paper in my African Spirituality class about Vodou or Voodoo.I have to pick a topic of my choice within the context of African Spirituality.(I wanted to write about Santeria, but someone chose it already) We have focused alot on Santeria and Orishas so far in class. I am particularily drawn (you can call it a fixation) with Obatala. My professor has a friend who is a diviner and he is in the process of getting her to come down here so she can , possibly, tell us which Orisha we are a child of.One of my classmates brung in a book on Orishas and what attributes go with which and my proffessor says he sees Obatala fitting to me, but the real weird thing about that was- that night I had a dream and in the dream a man dressed from head to toe in white handed me a white shirt and said here put this on. As you may know Obatala is "the keeper of the white cloth," and his children wear all white and people going through the induction into Santeria have to wear all white for a period of time( I can't remember if it is a year or two), so you can see what the dream made me think. This honestly is the only class I enjoy going to.

------------------------------
The Lord is on my side;I will not fear:what can man do unto me?
(Psalms 118:6)


If God brings you to it - He will bring you through it.

This whole idea of having to placate spirits is what gets people going about Voodoo.

In Christianity we are not to worship angels (be they good or demon), nor placate them in any way. We are taught that the Dead know nothing and do not interact with the World. Placating spirits of any kind may be considered a form of worship. That possession figures into this makes it even more suspicious.

It is forbidden for Christians (and Jews) to try to contact the dead, considering that Demons take their place and pretend to be the Dead and spew falsehoods and half-truths to ensnare people.

I sincerely believe that the "loa" are in fact devils masquerading as the spirits of the dead. That some of them act in a benevolent manner is not surprising, since even Lucifer himself (Satan) can appear as an Angel of Light (that is, he can appear "good"). Doesn't matter how happy the loa are. They're perfectly happy leading people astray...they don't need to do some really f***ed up $#** to reach their goal (unless someone asks for it).

Just remember you guys--if "the Dead" seem to know a hell of a lot more than they SHOULD (i.e. they seem to know stuff they never knew in life) BE VERY SUSPICIOUS.

"Mounting" eh? Almost seems like a sexual connotation... Wink

Why placate spirits anyway? Can't you just summon the "One god" to beat them down? Or does that "One god" ALLOW that $#** to go on??!!!

Hmm the animal sacrifice business seems to be a warping of the original intent of animal sacrifice by early Jews. Animals are SUPPOSED to be sacrificed not to "Feed" loas so they can picnic on it; it's SUPPOSED to be for atonement of sins until the coming of the Messiah.

Telling the future and casting spells are both dangerous. The entities involved in the divinations are NOT YOUR FRIEND. Trust me. These religions do not differ significantly from hardcore occult/witchcraft stuff, or even outright "devil worship"--sugarcoated and sanitized though it may be for the masses.

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
Why is it that anything that the African's have created is dark, and what the white man presents to us is good? remember your own BS you use as the basis of Christianity...it was through Christianity that you savages came to America and Africa, colonized us, whipped us, mistreated us,stole our identity, eradicated the native Indians of the America's, tell me again what is the most 'evil' religion? THINK ABOUT IT and STOP being so mentally enslaved!

AfroMan.

[This message was edited by Afroman on November 27, 2003 at 12:53 AM.]
quote:
Originally posted by Afroman:
Why is it that anything that the African's have created is dark, and what the white man presents to us is good? remember your own BS you use as the basis of Christianity...it was through Christianity that you savages came to America and Africa, colonized us, whipped us, mistreated us,stole our identity, eradicated the native Indians of the America's, tell me again what is the most 'evil' religion? THINK ABOUT IT and STOP being so mentally enslaved!

AfroMan.

[This message was edited by Afroman on November 27, 2003 at 12:53 AM.]


Dude it DOES NOT F***ING MATTER. White people practicing Satanism is just as bad. Hell, white people practicing ANYTHING occult is just as bad.

It matters not where the religion came from. The important factor here is that DEMONS are in effect. White, black, yellow, red. All have their own pagan occult religions. ALL ARE BAD, YOU UNDERSTAND???!!!!! DEMONS ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND.

White people weren't even originally Christian so don't give me that load of horse manure. They had their own BS occult crap going on.

And NOT EVERY WHITE PERSON WAS CHRISTIAN YOU IDIOT. EVEN BACK THEN. There were atheists and agnostics back then--people who may have paid lip-service for appearances sake in some cases but their hearts were not in it. Charles Darwin and his atheistic evolutionary pals and forbearers REALLY effed things up for everyone...

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
I never got deeply into Ifa (the Yoruba religion that basically vodou is a descendant of, by my understanding), but in my reading and listening and observing, I find it to be very spiritually uplifting, at least to be exposed to it.

Sheba, how about you leave African religions alone. They are religions like any other, and it is not for those who adhere to one religion to warn of the evils of another. The orisha are not "demons," and they are not Satan. Let the word of those who actually know a thing or two on the subject, namely Afroman, trump the word of those who don't; namely, you.

Ms. Pretty, I did a paper in college on the Yoruba religion myself, and I've always had a certain fascination for it. Obatala was the one I seemed most fascinated by, too. I once even tried to study up on the Yoruba language, but it's too hard for me.

Afroman, thanks for the info!
Sheba,

The "good", golden badge of Christianity you speak about is just a way for you to excuse your ignorance, racism, and prejudice.

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF you think there are certain "occult" religious practices associated with mainly with Whites as "inferior" or problematic... during slavery and historically certain White ethnics were seen as "inferior" as well. That didn't make the racism towards Blacks and Native Americans (in the U.S. for instance) any better or more acceptable. NONE of the practices were acceptable, Black or White.

I, for one, could care less about your little caveats based on ignorance and (implicitly) ridiculous comparisons. There is NO comparison of a religious "cult" that openly professes worship of Satan to any other so-called "cult" that makes no such claim and merely has a conception of the CREATOR and creation that is different from Christianity.

I HAVE A QUESTION THOUGH...
Since you readily admit that Whites/Europeans had some 'wacked out' pagan religious practices before Christianity... what accounts for the change and adoption of Christianity?

What accounts for or what is responsible for "their" enlightenment? OSMOSIS?
Who is responsible for proselytizing the "wayward", savage Europeans?

I.E. who taught Europeans Christianity (a religion that is historically foreign to them)? or rather the values you esteem in Christianity and how they have evolved into what you perceive they are today?

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on December 16, 2003 at 08:53 AM.]
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
I never got deeply into Ifa (the Yoruba religion that basically vodou is a descendant of, by my understanding), but in my reading and listening and observing, I find it to be very spiritually uplifting, at least to be exposed to it.

Sheba, how about you leave African religions alone. They are religions like any other, and it is not for those who adhere to one religion to warn of the evils of another. The orisha are not "demons," and they are not Satan. Let the word of those who actually know a thing or two on the subject, namely Afroman, trump the word of those who don't; namely, you.

Ms. Pretty, I did a paper in college on the Yoruba religion myself, and I've always had a certain fascination for it. Obatala was the one I seemed most fascinated by, too. I once even tried to study up on the Yoruba language, but it's too hard for me.

Afroman, thanks for the info!


I won't leave ANY religion "alone" if IT IS NOT THE TRUTH.

How DO YOU "KNOW" that "orisha" are NOT demons? Do you think they're gonna F***ING tell you? "If they are from the Negaverse, OF COURSE they'd lie to you!"[/Sailor Mars] The whole goal of Demons is to DECEIVE! Do you think they'd actually admit WHAT THEY ARE if they thought it would dissuade people from trying to hang out with them? F*** NO! Think about this for a minute! GOD TOLD US THEY ARE DEMONS!!! It's RIGHT HERE in His Word!!!

Lev.19
[31] Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.


Geez I'd think he'd say that for a DAMN GOOD REASON, don't you?

Isa.8
[19] And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?




THEIR WHOLE PURPOSE IN LIFE IS TO TAKE AS MANY HUMANS DOWN WITH THEM TO THE PIT AS THEY CAN!!!! WHY DO YOU NOT SEE THIS????? Confused
1Cor.10
[20] But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
[21] Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

1Tim.4
[1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[13] For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
[14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
[15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.



Not to mention that the possession by devils back in Jesus' time resembles many accounts of possessions of "spirits" that are not acknowledged to be "devils" by the possessees (like that idiot Jane Roberts that was channelling "spirits" like "Seth"). Methods of contacting "spirits" are remarkably similar to methods used by outright Satanists. At least Satanists aren't self-delusional about what they are worshipping.

Look dude, ANY occult-based religion is going to be warned against. You have NO IDEA what you would be getting yourself into. Besides, occult superstitions are very unconducive to scientific thinking. That fact alone rules them suspect.

Every religion except Christianity is WRONG. There. I said it. And I stand by it.

How do I know? Goes a little something like this:

1John.4
[1] Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
[2] Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
[4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
[5] They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
[6] We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
[7] Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
[8] He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.



"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh

[This message was edited by shebakoby on December 17, 2003 at 11:18 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Sheba,

http://faculty.smu.edu/twalker/moral96.htm

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF you think there are certain "occult" religious practices associated with mainly with Whites as "inferior" or problematic... during slavery and historically certain White ethnics were seen as "inferior" as well. That didn't make the racism towards Blacks and Native Americans (in the U.S. for instance) any better or more acceptable. NONE of the practices were acceptable, Black or White.


what you just said doesn't have F*** ALL to do with the discussion.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I, for one, could care less about your little caveats based on ignorance and (implicitly) ridiculous comparisons. There is NO comparison of a religious "cult" that openly professes worship of Satan to any other so-called "cult" that makes no such claim and merely has a conception of the CREATOR and creation that is different from Christianity.


The problem isn't so much "comparison" as SPOOKY SIMILARITY. It is akin to Luciferianism (Luciferians worship Satan as GOOD, while Satanists acknowledge him for what he is and worship him as EVIL. Doesn't f***ing matter one way or the other, they are both WRONG to WORSHIP HIM. WHY? BECAUSE SATAN/LUCIFER (same effing person) IS NOT THE TRUE GOD OR CREATOR!!!!

This has JACK to do with some effed-up notion of PC "Diversity" and EVERYTHING to do with WHAT IS TRUTH?!

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I HAVE A QUESTION THOUGH...
Since you readily admit that Whites/Europeans had some 'wacked out' pagan religious practices before Christianity...

Why on earth wouldn't I? Wink

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
what accounts for the change and adoption of Christianity?


The Holy Spirit. Plain and simple.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
What accounts for or what is responsible for "their" enlightenment? OSMOSIS?
Who is responsible for proselytizing the "wayward", savage Europeans?

People who had their origin in the Roman Empire (Jewish and Gentile Christians of the area, including Greeks).

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I.E. who taught Europeans Christianity (a religion that is historically foreign to them)? or rather the values you esteem in Christianity and how they have evolved into what you perceive they are today?

See above

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
To the positive BLACK folks here, thank you for commenting on this thread, and don't worry this nay sayer won't easily hindered us to getting back our ORIGINAL traditions, customs, RELIGION and all the rest that go into defining a people. He suffers from Afro-Agoraphobia. Whatever his race he thinks like the colonizers and enslavers who supposedly worried about our souls is completely ridiculous!! A people's spirituality is demonstrated by their interaction with nature and the surrounding world, and that speaks for itself. I could care less about OTHERS perception of our traditional African religions!!

AfroMan.

[This message was edited by Afroman on December 19, 2003 at 10:52 AM.]
quote:
Originally posted by shebakoby:
I won't leave ANY religion "alone" if IT IS NOT THE TRUTH.
Sheba, I do not believe that any religion is the truth. Religion is inherently lacking in "truth." The value in any faith is its spiritual dimension, period. It is not for the adherents of any one religion to authoritatively declare any other religion false. Each one is its one belief system, and belief in any one automatically equals belief that the others are false. So you can't state that Ifa is false but Christianity is truth, and attempt to "prove" it by using Christian religious scripture to prove it.


quote:
How DO YOU "KNOW" that "orisha" are NOT demons?
How do you know they are NOT? You're the one making the accusation. The Yoruba people lived for 900 years, just fine, before the Christians came and defiled them and their land. I reject the provincial belief that there are good people rotting in hell because they practiced the wrong religion.


quote:
GOD TOLD US THEY ARE DEMONS!!! It's RIGHT HERE in His Word!!!

_Lev.19
[31] Regard not them that have _familiar spirits_, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God._


Oh, you're right, Sheba, it sure does say that!! In fact, there it is, just 11 verses below the verse that says, "If a slave woman is the recognized concubine of a man and she has not been paid for and freed, then if another man has sexual relations with her, they will not be punished, since she is a slave. The man shall bring a ram to the entrance of the tent of my presence as his repayment offering, and with it the priest shall perform the ritual of purification to remove the man's sin, and God will forgive him. "

Now Sheba, I ask you, in all honesty, to provide a yes or no answer: Does this sound like the word of "the true religion" to you? Because it doesn't to me. In my worldview, a religion that offers such a horridly, obviously incorrect teaching as one that condones slavery cannot tell me anything about the unseen, invisible, faith-inspired Orishas.

quote:
Geez I'd think he'd say that for a DAMN GOOD REASON, don't you?


I don't believe God said any of that stuff. Men said God said it. Men who condoned slavery said God said it.
Yssys, Msprettygril, Nmaginate, VOX thank you for well articulated contributions on this thread, which provide it's audience with many interesting points to consider and challenge Shebakoby so attached to our oppressors ideologies. Shebakoby is speaking of Christianity HERE to further enslave and colonize us, BUT WHY SHOULD WE REMAIN ATTACHED TO OUR OPPRESSORS' IDEOLOGIES?? He or she insists on pointing out the so-called "evil and barbarism" common in our African traditions, he need to read his Bible again because EVIL is practiced in Chritianity. I remember 2 stories of a MAN being near sacrificed and another sacrificed in that Christian religion of his, is that barbaric? If you think the appearance of a sacrifice is evil than every church should take down the image of the crucifix. But if Shebakoby is intelligent, and study the SYMBOLISM and PHILOSOPHY behind the crucifix, instead of believing racist stereotypes about our African spirituality than he may become enlightened.

It was Vodou that help free the slaves through the assistance of the ancestors, lwa in Haiti, Carribean, Americas, etc. It is unfortunate that our African spirituality has been the interest of poor Haitians and Diasporas only. There has never been a conference on to organize it as a true religion and to write a bible for it. I think more educated Haitians and Diasporas should research our African spirituality and organize an elaborate plan on how to bring our African heritage to the modern age so that it can attract a large number of our people. The Black renaissance could be ushered by a push to modernize all aspects of our religions. I personally think that Vodou holds the key to Haiti and the Diaspora's transformation. We have a lot to learn from Vodou.


AfroMan.

[This message was edited by Afroman on December 20, 2003 at 01:15 AM.]
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Sheba,

http://faculty.smu.edu/twalker/moral96.htm

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF you think there are certain "occult" religious practices associated with mainly with Whites as "inferior" or problematic... during slavery and historically certain White ethnics were seen as "inferior" as well. That didn't make the racism towards Blacks and Native Americans (in the U.S. for instance) any better or more acceptable. NONE of the practices were acceptable, Black or White.

what you just said doesn't have F*** ALL to do with the discussion.
OH! I forgot I dealing with a LITERALITE!
A member of the UNorthoDOX DUNKED Church! Founders: Tracy Morgan & Ben Wallace Big Grin
Razz Do Ya'll have church meetings in the stair-wells?

The meaning and relevance is just like a parable. You're a Christian... you've heard of parables right? Well... the story I used just happen to be one based on reality instead of fairy tale (instructive) fantasy...

Simply, in the American context you can say there were "WHITE SLAVES" or Whites that were oppressed too! (The same way you cite White SATANISM) But, pointing that out, does not account for or erase the gross disparity in duration, scope and scale... not to mention your pet level of animus - i.e. Greater Than and Less Than.

Sure... we believe you see and treat them (non-Christian religions) all the same! Roll Eyes

Fake pretense will always be sensed... here Sheba!
And you know, I know that you know how to FAKE & SHAKE and do the SHAMMY, SHAM, SHAM! Wink

Again, to make it plain, what you tend to emphasize (more) is, in fact, what you give more weight to, what you make more of an issue of which reveals what you see as more of a problem or something, indigenous African religions in this case, that is MORE "evil", MORE "backwards", MORE F~ed UP! (as you would say).

So, the little add-ons about White SATANISM or anything to feign the appearance of objectivity when you actually have NONE is not a trick that I fall for. "I said..." but it doesn't take a lot to know what you meant regardless.

People say anything, especially to cover their tracks and to hide their true intentions/feelings.

"There I said it! And I stand by it!"

How long did it take for me to get that out of you? See...? You were hiding that!
Those things that you think you hide are readily apparently.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Afroman:
_To the positive BLACK folks here, thank you for commenting on this thread, and don't worry this nay sayer won't easily hindered us to getting back our ORIGINAL traditions, customs, RELIGION and all the rest that go into defining a people. He suffers from Afro-Agoraphobia. Whatever his race he thinks like the colonizers and enslavers who supposedly worried about our souls is completely ridiculous!! A people's spirituality is demonstrated by their interaction with nature and the surrounding world, and that speaks for itself. I could care less about OTHERS perception of our traditional African religions!!_

AfroMan.

[This message was edited by Afroman on December 19, 2003 at

Your ignorance astounds me man. Afro-Agoraphobia my @$$. People's spirituality doesn't mean $#** if they are headed in the wrooooooooooooong direction (down!). If you are so closedminded as to believe that a particular RELIGION is bound to a people and defines them for all eternity just because of their "race" IS F*CKING STUPID, YO!!!!

I don't care if it's your traditional African religion or something somebody else thought of. IT REALLLLLY DOES NOT MATTER A WHIT! I COULDN'T GIVE A S#** IF WHITE, BROWN, BLACK, RED OR YELLOW PEOPLE MADE IT UP!!!! The problem is the contact with "spirits"--contact which is objected to for a DAMN GOOD REASON. My "perception" isn't that it has JACK to do with "African", it's that it's not the true religion! These spirits did not create you SO YOU OWE THEM NOTHING!!!!!

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
A people's spirituality is demonstrated by their interaction with nature and the surrounding world, and that speaks for itself.
Nuff said! upfro


And it doesn't f***ing HELP you either. Spirituality is useless and empty if it is DIRECTED at the WRONG entity! Like I said before THESE SPIRITS DID NOT CREATE YOU AND YOU OWE THEM NOTHING!!!

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
quote:
Originally posted by shebakoby:
I won't leave ANY religion "alone" if IT IS NOT THE TRUTH.

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Sheba, I do not believe that _ any _ religion is the truth. Religion is inherently lacking in "truth." The value in any faith is its spiritual dimension, period. It is not for the adherents of any one religion to authoritatively declare any other religion false. Each one is its one belief system, and belief in any one automatically equals belief that the others are false. So you can't state that Ifa is false but Christianity is truth, and attempt to "prove" it by using Christian religious scripture to prove it.

I thought you'd never ask. If religion is inherently lacking in "truth" THEN WHY THE F*** BOTHER WITH IT AT ALL?? Would it then not stand to reason that ATHEISM is the way to go???? Roll Eyes

quote:
How DO YOU "KNOW" that "orisha" are NOT demons?

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
How do you know they are NOT? You're the one making the accusation.

There are only two kinds of spirits dude. Good angels, and bad angels. We know bad angels better under the name "demons." Angels do not go around spreading false doctrine. Demons do. God told us HOW to tell if a spirit IS NOT FROM GOD. Demons disguise themselves as benevolent spirits in order to trick humanity into not following the True God. Which, I'd say they've done a pretty F***ING GOOD JOB of. WHY would the supreme being in authority over these "orisha" ALLOW mankind to "worship" or otherwise acknowledge these "orisha"? What's the motivation? And most importantly, WHAT DO YOU OWE TO THESE "orisha", that you must hang out with them and acknowledge them? Truly good angels DO NOT allow themselves to be worshipped or praised or hung out with IN ANY WAY.

quote:
Originally posted by Vox: The Yoruba people lived for 900 years, just fine, before the Christians came and defiled them and their land. I reject the provincial belief that there are good people rotting in hell because they practiced the wrong religion.

Listen fella, just because someone's done something for 900 years (or ANY length of time, for that matter) doesn't mean $#**. WTF is this "defiled" bullcrap? Definition of defiled INCLUDES hanging out with "spirits" that allow themselves to be worshipped or appeased! It's a trap! These spirits are not your friends. Their actions tend to COUNTERACT the appearance of any major scientific development! After all, what use is science if the world of Magic can totally abrogate it? Hmmm? Magic is not healthy for the human race. And define "just fine" please man.


quote:
GOD TOLD US THEY ARE DEMONS!!! It's RIGHT HERE in His Word!!!

_Lev.19
[31] Regard not them that have _familiar spirits_, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God._

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Oh, you're right, Sheba, it sure does say that!! In fact, there it is, just 11 verses below the verse that says, "If a slave woman is the recognized concubine of a man and she has not been paid for and freed, then if another man has sexual relations with her, they will not be punished, since she is a slave. The man shall bring a ram to the entrance of the tent of my presence as his repayment offering, and with it the priest shall perform the ritual of purification to remove the man's sin, and God will forgive him. "

Now Sheba, I ask you, in all honesty, to provide a yes or no answer: Does this sound like the word of "the true religion" to you? Because it doesn't to me. In my worldview, a religion that offers such a horridly, obviously incorrect teaching as one that condones slavery cannot tell me anything about the unseen, invisible, faith-inspired Orishas.

You are applying 18-th century ideas about slavery to an earlier time. This is not applicable because the majority of slaves of that day were indentured servants, that is, they were in slavery for DEBT. Ancient remedy to "racking up your credit card charges" as it were. Working it off. God believes in holding people accountable for their actions, hence the "condoning" of slavery. What you are forgetting is that all male slaves, unless by their own special request, WERE TO BE FREED after a certain period of time (7 years). Your learning of what slavery was like in the 18th century and applying it to 2000 BC doesn't necessarily make sense.

Incidentally, read some more in there and you will find that ANYONE found KIDNAPPING people to sell into slavery WERE TO BE PUT TO DEATH. NOT TOMORROW NOT AFTER BREAKFAST.

There NEVER ANYTHING racial about slavery to God.

quote:
Geez I'd think he'd say that for a DAMN GOOD REASON, don't you?


quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
I don't believe God said any of that stuff. Men said God said it. Men who condoned slavery said God said it.

Umm what you just said does not follow. WHY would Man say God said it? It's interesting you should say that, considering the Children of Israel were CONSTANTLY having the problem of NOT following the command not to contact "spirits"!

Why would Man say that God said ANYTHING--if the things God said, man does NOT WANT to do of his own inclination? WHY would Man say that God said, for example, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY? Even when the "best" of men have trouble following this? Hmmmm? If Man said God said, WHY did Man not say that God said ADULTERY IS OK JUST DON'T GET CAUGHT or something? Do you have a logical explanation for this?

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Sheba,

http://faculty.smu.edu/twalker/moral96.htm

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF you think there are certain "occult" religious practices associated with mainly with Whites as "inferior" or problematic... during slavery and historically certain White ethnics were seen as "inferior" as well. That didn't make the racism towards Blacks and Native Americans (in the U.S. for instance) any better or more acceptable. NONE of the practices were acceptable, Black or White.

what you just said doesn't have F*** ALL to do with the discussion.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
OH! I forgot I dealing with a LITERALITE!
A member of the UNorthoDOX DUNKED Church! Founders: Tracy Morgan & Ben Wallace Big Grin
Razz Do Ya'll have church meetings in the stair-wells?

The F*** are you talking about man? Who the F*** are Tracy Morgan and Ben Wallace?

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
The meaning and relevance is just like a parable. You're a Christian... you've heard of parables right? Well... the story I used just happen to be one based on reality instead of fairy tale (instructive) fantasy...

Simply, in the American context you can say there were "WHITE SLAVES" or Whites that were oppressed too! (The same way you cite White SATANISM) But, pointing that out, does not account for or erase the gross disparity in duration, scope and scale... not to mention your pet level of animus - i.e. Greater Than and Less Than.

Dude get away from the magic mushrooms

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Sure... we believe you see and treat them (non-Christian religions) all the same! Roll Eyes

You're right, I don't treat them all the same. The ones that summon "spirits" get extra special attention because the people no matter WHO they are, are in REAL danger. This isn't just eternal consequences here. "Spirits" can, when they have POWER over people (and they have no power over Christians), do some nasty things.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Fake pretense will always be sensed... here Sheba!
And you know, I know that you know how to FAKE & SHAKE and do the SHAMMY, SHAM, SHAM! Wink

LOL you n00b.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Again, to make it plain, what you tend to emphasize (more) is, in fact, what you give more weight to, what you make more of an issue of which reveals what you see as more of a problem or something, indigenous African religions in this case, that is MORE "evil", MORE "backwards", MORE F~ed UP! (as you would say).

Backwards is backwards dude, but the problem here isn't so much "backwards" as HARMFUL. DANGEROUS. Like don't play with fire you'll get burned?!

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
So, the little add-ons about White SATANISM or anything to feign the appearance of objectivity when you actually have NONE is not a trick that I fall for. "I said..." but it doesn't take a lot to know what you meant regardless.

People say anything, especially to cover their tracks and to hide their true intentions/feelings.

You are a fool. What "TRICK" am I up to then dude?

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
"There I said it! And I stand by it!"

How long did it take for me to get that out of you? See...? You were hiding that!
Those things that you think you hide are readily apparently.


I didn't hide $#** nor did I need to. I was simply making an official statement.

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
quote:
Originally posted by Afroman:
_Who the hell you write for? Who the hell cares about your opinion HERE Shabakoby? Take your WESTERN behind out of here and please do not come back!!!

Aww, come on Afroman. Every now and then, a weak debater is more amusing than boring. Usually, they're either boring or just useless, but this one is amusing, admit it.
quote:
Originally posted by shebakoby:
If religion is inherently lacking in "truth" THEN WHY THE F*** BOTHER WITH IT AT ALL?? Would it then not stand to reason that ATHEISM is the way to go????
First of all, one answer to your question, why bother with religion at all, I answered in my last post. I said, the value of religion is its spiritual dimension. Many people find adherence to organized religious strictures to be uplifting, uniting, disciplining, and enlightening. To those who choose to adhere to it, that's the benefit.

Second of all, as to your atheism question, the opposite of adhering to religion is not atheism. The opposite of belief in God is atheism. The opposite of adhering to religion is rejecting religion. One does not have to subscribe to an organized faith to believe in God, or in whichever higher power they choose to.

quote:
There are only two kinds of spirits dude. Good angels, and bad angels.

Would you cite to some factual studies that establish this? Is there a scientific journal, or some other objective source? If so, state what objective data these sources used in support of this statement.


quote:
And define "just fine" please man.
Pre-Christianity: Dozens of cities, teeming with culture, commerce, and pride. Post-Christianity: Rampant poverty, disease, an out-of-control birth rate, crime, corruption. This is not to blame Christianity (the white colonizers would have wrought destruction just as bad had they still been worshipping Thor & Freya). But it suggests that Christianity did little to stem the flow of disaster brought by the very people who brought it in the first place.


quote:

You are applying 18-th century ideas about slavery to an earlier time.
I'm not letting you change the subject here. It was the Bible, that unquestionable word of God, that enlightened tome of truth, that condoned the use of concubines and slaves for the selfish benefit of another. It doesn't matter what kind of selfish robbery of a person's natural rights we're dealing with. If the Bible condones the selfish robbery of a person's natural rights, the Bible is wrong as to that point. If the Bible declares that God condones it, the Bible is wrong as to that point also. Since natural, objective morality stands against the idea of slavery in any form, God would not condone it, either in its 2000 BC version or in the more evil 18th century version. To declare that any of it is acceptable in any form is to declare an evil falsehood. Those who subscribe to a lie about a clear, objective, obvious notion has no standing to declare that some other religion is wrong as to more spiritual, supernatural, unseen and unknown concepts. If concubines are acceptable in your worldview, then you sound ridiculous claiming that divine beings of some other religion are evil.

quote:
all male slaves, unless by their own special request, WERE TO BE FREED after a certain period of time (7 years).
What about the poor female concubine for Lev 19:20? Guess she's sh*t outta luck, huh? And anyway, cite to me the chapter & verse that gives the 7 year rule. If you can't find it, go to blueletterbible.org and look it up.

quote:
Incidentally, read some more in there and you will find that ANYONE found KIDNAPPING people to sell into slavery WERE TO BE PUT TO DEATH. NOT TOMORROW NOT AFTER BREAKFAST.
Cite that one too, while you're at it.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
I don't believe God said any of that stuff. Men said God said it. Men who condoned slavery said God said it.

Umm what you just said does not follow.
Why would Man say that God said ANYTHING--if the things God said, man does NOT WANT to do of his own inclination? WHY would Man say that God said, for example, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY?


Next time you hear a man saying those things, ask him. I hear men say it all the time. Men standing in pulpits say it all the time. Wasn't Moses a man? Wasn't Muhammad a man? The man who wrote that verse in the Bible said it. The men who collected these works into a book and called it the Bible, they constructively "said" it too. Of course, there are truths in every religious text. These truths are important to human society. That's why they would say them. I hold things as truth things that I believe are morally correct all the time, even if they thwart my baser interests. As to the falsehoods, well, of course many men would say things to discourage belief in religions other than the ones they believe in, or have power in.

Are you telling me that you would never promote a belief in something you strongly believe to be right, even though the belief is against some sinful thing you want? I mean hell, you're telling us that the orisha are demons, even though you know it thwarts your natural human interest in not looking like a complete and total moron. So there's an example right there.
quote:
Aww, come on Afroman. Every now and then, a weak debater is more amusing than boring. Usually, they're either boring or just useless, but this one is amusing, admit it.
Ahhh.... VOX!

Now, I'm gonna have to share my B*tch! Frown

Well... seeing as how I don't like to come between a man and his happiness, Sheba is all yours!
(Psst... I have to admit it's been good to me too! I've been trying to wear it oUT! Big Grin)
****************************
Oh, BTW, asking her for some documentation/proof of her aSSertions... I thought you knew better! Roll Eyes The only thing she offers is her opinions. She's from the Church of the uNOrthOdOX - aka Faith For Retards.

Weak Debater is her locator. She specializes in IF's, COULD's, MAYBE's, etc. and all manner of unprovable indefinites stamped as absolutes. That's the only way she can sustain an argument.
She is DAMN GOOD THOUGH... She got some sweet, juicy, 'Make It Last FOrever' pussy [il]logic.

I under how easy it is to enjoy her! winkgrin

The sad part is (and I feel pity for her) is that she one of those types that "Think You Love Her" and that "She [or that shit she says] Means Something In Your Life" and... she even thinks that she actually knows something... not to mention that (as dumb as she is) she thinks she knows the "TRUTH".
rotflmao

Bottomline...
"It Ain't Hard To Tell" by her weak logic that she is not well acquainted with "TRUTH". She would damn god himself to make what she has been taught, and now tends to believe, TRUE.

Matter of fact, I asked her about the Paulinian concept of the "Measure Of Faith" that GOD gave to ALL MEN (humankind) and raised the issue of where all those who died "believing in GOD" before Christ, while Christ was alive, and after his time on earth... you know all those who have never heard of HEY-SOOSE CHRISTOS... where were they going... and, of course after some obfuscation she said they were/are going to hell.

How that fits in with the principle of GoD judging according to one's "faith" (hmmm... faith a word also used interchangeably with 'religion') I DUNNO!

I guess that's why you to had to say:
I reject the provincial belief that there are good people rotting in hell because they practiced the wrong religion.

Well... I been there and back... and back again with her.

But, I guess it's been sooooo good to me that I keep going "back" for more! Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by shebakoby:
If religion is inherently lacking in "truth" THEN WHY THE F*** BOTHER WITH IT AT ALL?? Would it then not stand to reason that ATHEISM is the way to go????


quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
First of all, one answer to your question, why bother with religion at all, I answered in my last post. I said, the value of religion is its spiritual dimension. Many people find adherence to organized religious strictures to be uplifting, uniting, disciplining, and enlightening. To those who choose to adhere to it, that's the benefit.


It can do a lot of other things too that are not so benign...

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Second of all, as to your atheism question, the opposite of adhering to religion is not atheism. The opposite of belief in God is atheism. The opposite of adhering to religion is rejecting religion. One does not have to subscribe to an organized faith to believe in God, or in whichever higher power they choose to.


I'm talking about ATHEISM, not the Common American Religous Creed of "I can worship God in the woods" type deal or rejection of "organized" religion.

Although, atheism IS a 'religion.'

quote:
There are only two kinds of spirits dude. Good angels, and bad angels.

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Would you cite to some factual studies that establish this? Is there a scientific journal, or some other objective source? If so, state what objective data these sources used in support of this statement.

DUDE. The problem is NOBODY can scientifically study ANY OF THAT $#**!!!!!! F***ING NOBODY!!!!!

I have to go with God's word for it cuz that's all we got aside from demonic revelations. I'd rather trust God on this than a pack of hostile spirit entites that are trying to screw mankind over for salvation.


quote:
And define "just fine" please man.

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Pre-Christianity: Dozens of cities, teeming with culture, commerce, and pride. Post-Christianity: Rampant poverty, disease, an out-of-control birth rate, crime, corruption. This is not to blame Christianity (the white colonizers would have wrought destruction just as bad had they still been worshipping Thor & Freya). But it suggests that Christianity did little to stem the flow of disaster brought by the very people who brought it in the first place.

As if there were no famine or disease or crime etc. BEFORE they came... Roll Eyes


quote:

You are applying 18-th century ideas about slavery to an earlier time.


quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
I'm not letting you change the subject here. It was the Bible, that unquestionable word of God, that enlightened tome of truth, that condoned the use of concubines and slaves for the selfish benefit of another.

Dude there's a difference here that you are NOT SEEING. Now a wink is as good as a nod to a blind donkey, but allowing something is NOT the same as commanding it.

Slavery was NOT "commanded" by God, but it was allowed because the slaves were either PRISONERS OF WAR or INDENTURED SERVANTS. Either way they f***ing DESERVED IT, in that instance in Israel times. Slavery such as WE know of the 18th century is NOT THE SAME.

Concubines were ALLOWED, but NOT COMMANDED. Moses allowed divorce in the mohaic laws "Because your hearts were hard." Same reason Israel got a king. God wanted to be their direct king but the Israelites INSISTED on a king "like the other nations" (peer pressure blows, don't it?). So then God relented and gave them a King. And he BLEW. (saul).

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
It doesn't matter what kind of selfish robbery of a person's natural rights we're dealing with.

You do not understand the problem. Back in those days, it WASN'T "selfish robbery of a person's rights" because indentured servants brought that $#** on themselves cuz they couldn't handle money. Prisoners of war were of wars God usually actively campaigned in, and they deserved it too. THIS S#** DOES NOT APPLY TODAY because the credit system has evolved beyond the need for indentured slavery; and warfare has evolved past taking slaves from POW's (except in like Vietnam or something...).

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
If the Bible condones the selfish robbery of a person's natural rights, the Bible is wrong as to that point.

IT DOESN'T!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
If the Bible declares that God condones it, the Bible is wrong as to that point also.

Dude God is NEVER WRONG.

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
natural, objective morality stands against the idea of slavery in any form, God would not condone it, either in its 2000 BC version or in the more evil 18th century version.

DUDE. WHERE does objective morality COME FROM? Wink

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
To declare that any of it is acceptable in any form is to declare an evil falsehood.


What, you think people who owed money back then shoulda got off scot-free without having to work it off or something? By the way indentured slaves and prisoner of war slaves WERE TO BE FREED AFTER SEVEN YEARS. God figured seven years was long enough to PAY OFF ANYTHING.
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Those who subscribe to a lie about a clear, objective, obvious notion has no standing to declare that some other religion is wrong as to more spiritual, supernatural, unseen and unknown concepts.

Those who don't understand WTF they are talking about should do some f***ing reading about it first (in the bible). There is no lie here. You just aren't understanding WTF was going on there.

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
If concubines are acceptable in your worldview, then you sound ridiculous claiming that divine beings of some other religion are evil.


Concubines were TOLERATED. That's a far cry from calling it the norm. They are NOT the ideal situation. I think they are a dumb idea. God allowed it for a time but that doesn't mean HE liked the idea.

quote:
all male slaves, unless by their own special request, WERE TO BE FREED after a certain period of time (7 years).

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
What about the poor female concubine for Lev 19:20? Guess she's sh*t outta luck, huh? And anyway, cite to me the chapter & verse that gives the 7 year rule. If you can't find it, go to blueletterbible.org and look it up.


A concubine was more like a WIFE. Especially if she had KIDS, she'd need a stable home for those kids, not moving around forever. And yes I can find it. Why can't you? Oh hee hee hee, no wonder, it's in Deutoronomy... Razz

BTW women who were NOT concubines, and DIDN'T have kids, COULD go out free after seven years.

Deutoronomy 15
[12] And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman , be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee.
[13] And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty:
[14] Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the LORD thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him.
[15] And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee: therefore I command thee this thing to day.
[16] And it shall be, if he say unto thee, I will not go away from thee; because he loveth thee and thine house, because he is well with thee;
[17] Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.


quote:
Incidentally, read some more in there and you will find that ANYONE found KIDNAPPING people to sell into slavery WERE TO BE PUT TO DEATH. NOT TOMORROW NOT AFTER BREAKFAST.

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Cite that one too, while you're at it.
Dude you're making this TOO EASY. Big Grin

Ex. 21

[16] And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.



quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
I don't believe God said any of that stuff. Men said God said it. Men who condoned slavery said God said it.

Umm what you just said does not follow.
Why would Man say that God said ANYTHING--if the things God said, man does NOT WANT to do of his own inclination? WHY would Man say that God said, for example, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY?


quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Next time you hear a man saying those things, ask him. I hear men say it all the time. Men standing in pulpits say it all the time. Wasn't Moses a man? Wasn't Muhammad a man? The man who wrote that verse in the Bible said it. The men who collected these works into a book and called it the Bible, they constructively "said" it too.

Moses was inspired by God. Muhammad was told a bunch of stuff by a rogue angel (demon). GOD DICTATED THE WORDS. Men put pen to paper (or stylus to clay tablet), but the words came direct from God.

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Of course, there are truths in every religious text. These truths are important to human society. That's why they would say them. I hold things as truth things that I believe are morally correct all the time, even if they thwart my baser interests. As to the falsehoods, well, of course many men would say things to discourage belief in religions other than the ones they believe in, or have power in.


HOW WOULD THEY FIND OUT WHAT THE TRUTHS ARE?????
C'mon! [/Tom Leykis]

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Are you telling me that you would never promote a belief in something you strongly believe to be right, even though the belief is against some sinful thing you want?

WTF u talking bout man

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
I mean hell, you're telling us that the orisha are demons, even though you know it thwarts your natural human interest in not looking like a complete and total moron. So there's an example right there.


Huh? ALL false gods are demons in disguise. God told us so.

1Tim.4
[1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Cor.10
[20] But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
[21] Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.


These included the Greeks, who worshipped Diana, Zeus, Hera, etc. The greeks, natch, did not believe these "gods" to be demons. There may have not been an actual "Zeus" but there were demons hanging out just happy to accept the offerings in whatever guise the humans thought it was.

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
Almost a month later, 12 screens worth of gobbledygook for a silly reply about this topic. I guess you tried to answer my post without the benefit of rereading what came before, because you've missed a lot of points, including some of the dumb ones you were trying to support. Your first two points here are meaningless. The reason you brought up atheism was that you were asking why not be atheist if I'm saying that religion is inherently lacking in truth. I answered you by saying that religion has a purpose to the people who choose to adhere to it, and I told you that your question was pointless, because it falsely assumes that if you reject religion as untruthful, you must also reject belief in God.

In light of this recap, your responses to these posts don't make any sense. " [religion] It can do a lot of other things too that are not so benign... is supposed to be your reply to my point about the purpose of religion, but it doesn't address (or even disagree) with what I said, and the context is totally out of place. And "I'm talking about ATHEISM, not the Common American Religous Creed of "I can worship God in the woods" type deal or rejection of "organized" religion. " --- doesn't make sense in the context either, because although you're correct when you say you're talking about atheism, I told you why atheism is not the only recourse for those of us who reject religious dogma.

This is my long-winded way of saying: What the f*ck are you babbling about?!?!?!?!?!

quote:
DUDE. The problem is NOBODY can scientifically study ANY OF THAT $#**!!!!!! F***ING NOBODY!!!!!


Exactly. My sarcasm had a point: that you were acting as if you were stating a documented fact, that "there are good angels and bad angels." If there is no objective evidence to that effect -- only the words of a text designed to promote one religion over others -- then you haven't said anything.

quote:
Dude there's a difference here that you are NOT SEEING. Now a wink is as good as a nod to a blind donkey, but allowing something is NOT the same as commanding it.

Slavery was NOT "commanded" by God, but it was allowed because the slaves were either PRISONERS OF WAR or INDENTURED SERVANTS. Either way they f***ing DESERVED IT, in that instance in Israel times. Slavery such as WE know of the 18th century is NOT THE SAME.

Concubines were ALLOWED, but NOT COMMANDED.
I specifically said "condoned," which has a meaning close to "allowed," but nowhere near "commanded." So I know you're not trying to say that I said "commanded." A religious text that is supposed to set forth standards of human morality is false if it doesn't ban slavery and human property. This book tells us that, by your own admission, God is okay with slaves and concubines, but absolutely bans having sexual thoughts about someone else's wife. That's ridiculous.

quote:
Back in those days, slavery WASN'T "selfish robbery of a person's rights" because indentured servants brought that $#** on themselves cuz they couldn't handle money.
Ahhh, so God's morality, you're saying, is less advanced than 21st century humans'. If we sought to impose these penalties today, most normal people would view that as an outrage.

quote:

Dude God is NEVER WRONG.


This is why this discussion is pointless. I didn't say he ever is. I said that if the Bible says God believes something that is clearly wrong, the BIBLE is wrong about it. The clear import of this statement is that God is not wrong.

quote:
DUDE. WHERE does objective morality COME FROM?


God. Not the Bible. Get it?

The point is, again, that religion is BELIEF. Belief in vodou is no less valid than belief in what you believe. Obviously, you can't believe in BOTH, so if you believe in one, you disbelieve the other. That's fine. But to trumpet your beliefs as fact, when you can't prove it or support it with objective evidence, is stupid.
quote:
Aww, come on Afroman. Every now and then, a weak debater is more amusing than boring. Usually, they're either boring or just useless, but this one is amusing, admit it.
Ahhh.... VOX!
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Now, I'm gonna have to share my B*tch! Frown

Well... seeing as how I don't like to come between a man and his happiness, Sheba is all yours!
(Psst... I have to admit it's been good to me too! I've been trying to wear it oUT! Big Grin)

ROFLMFAO I'm flattered Wink
****************************

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Oh, BTW, asking her for some documentation/proof of her aSSertions... I thought you knew better! Roll Eyes The only thing she offers is her opinions. She's from the Church of the uNOrthOdOX - aka Faith For Retards.


Well all you guys do is offer your opinions...

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Weak Debater is her locator. She specializes in IF's, COULD's, MAYBE's, etc. and all manner of unprovable indefinites stamped as absolutes.

Come onnnnnnnnn![/Tom Leykis] I've NEVER stamped unprovables as absolutes (except the existence of God and his moral code)! What you fail to comprehend is that youuuuu DO NOT EVER SEE THE REMOTE POSSIBILITIES contained within the 'ifs, coulds and maybes'. To you, those 'ifs, coulds, and maybes' existence is TOTALLY DENIED AS TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE!!! Which is TOTALLY RIDICULOUS! THAT IS MY POINT!

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
That's the only way she can sustain an argument.
She is DAMN GOOD THOUGH... She got some sweet, juicy, 'Make It Last FOrever' pussy [il]logic.


Say what you want, I'm NOT illogical. You've never proved it.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I under how easy it is to enjoy her! winkgrin

The sad part is (and I feel pity for her) is that she one of those types that "Think You Love Her" and that "She [or that shit she says] Means Something In Your Life" and... she even thinks that she actually knows something... not to mention that (as dumb as she is) she thinks she knows the "TRUTH".
rotflmao


WTF? I don't think or assume that ANYBODY likes me. Dude yer reading toooooo much into this. You can delude yourself to the contrary, but truth is I DO NOT GIVE A $#** what other people think of me. Including YOU GUYS.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Bottomline...
"It Ain't Hard To Tell" by her weak logic that she is not well acquainted with "TRUTH". She would damn god himself to make what she has been taught, and now tends to believe, TRUE.


Eh? How do I know that what you been spouting is the "Truth"? Where's the Truth Detector? Wink

LOL don't go that far. God might take exception to that. Wink

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Matter of fact, I asked her about the Paulinian concept of the "Measure Of Faith" that GOD gave to ALL MEN (humankind) and raised the issue of where all those who died "believing in GOD" before Christ, while Christ was alive, and after his time on earth... you know all those who have never heard of HEY-SOOSE CHRISTOS... where were they going... and, of course after some obfuscation she said they were/are going to hell.

Every man has a measure of faith, but what matters IS WHAT THEY PUT THEIR FAITH IN, DIP$#**!!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
How that fits in with the principle of GoD judging according to one's "faith" (hmmm... faith a word also used interchangeably with 'religion') I DUNNO!


It fits in with IN WHOM DO they have that faith!

But all that isn't up for discussion anyhow. It's really not a Christian's job to answer the question of "aren't you condemning blahblahblah people?" What matters is what you are telling the person NOW. Whatever happened to someone that is already dead IS NOT AN ISSUE, it CANNOT be changed. The Bible does unequivocally say that people that do not believe in Christ NOW are not saved unless they change their hearts and minds and start believing in Him. The past is past, get with the program.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I guess that's why you to had to say:
_I reject the provincial belief that there are good people rotting in hell because they practiced the wrong religion. _


LOL Vox and 'nate. Vox, it's not merely that people practiced the "wrong religion"--it's that they were FOLLOWING FALSE GODS! As such, these gods were powerless to do ANYTHING against them, or FOR them, for that matter. However, the fact that these gods don't exist doesn't bother the demons who act in the name of these false gods and make the people believe even more in the superstitious bullcrap.

People of "the wrong religion[s]" were violating the 1st commandment and God only knows how many others! The first commandment, contrary to popular belief, has CONSEQUENCES FOR EVERYONE, whether they choose to believe in the God of the Bible or not. Kinda like how everyone who commits murder will have consequences happen to them for doing it (punishment).

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Well... I been there and back... and back again with her.

But, I guess it's been sooooo good to me that I keep going "back" for more! Big Grin


Yeahhhhhhh, I noticed that... Roll Eyes

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Almost a month later, 12 screens worth of gobbledygook for a silly reply about this topic. I guess you tried to answer my post without the benefit of rereading what came before, because you've missed a lot of points, including some of the dumb ones you were trying to support. Your first two points here are meaningless. The reason you brought up atheism was that you were asking why not be atheist if I'm saying that religion is inherently lacking in truth. I answered you by saying that religion has a purpose to the people who choose to adhere to it, and I told you that your question was pointless, because it falsely assumes that if you reject religion as untruthful, you must also reject belief in God.


It is illogical to continue to believe something you KNOW (or suspect) is wrong. People who adhere to religions for alternate reasons are hypocrites. Rejecting religion is a totally logical last step in the process of admitting lies, distortions, or what have you, in the religions.

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
In light of this recap, your responses to these posts don't make any sense. "_ [religion] It can do a lot of other things too that are not so benign... _ is supposed to be your reply to my point about the purpose of religion, but it doesn't address (or even disagree) with what I said, and the context is totally out of place. And "_I'm talking about ATHEISM, not the Common American Religous Creed of "I can worship God in the woods" type deal or rejection of "organized" religion. _" --- doesn't make sense in the context either, because although you're correct when you say you're talking about atheism, I told you why atheism is not the only recourse for those of us who reject religious dogma.

This is my long-winded way of saying: What the f*ck are you babbling about?!?!?!?!?!

DUDE. What I'm "babbling" about is the illogic of your reasoning. You are trying to say that "organized" religion is lacking in truth, while insinuating that "make-your-own-from-scratch" is MORE valid. That's bullcrap and totally illogical. Just because someone's beliefs don't totally coincide with some organization's official standing does NOT mean that it's not a 'religion.' Therefore there is NO REASON why you could on the one hand say "organized" religion is lacking in truth but "build-your-own-fajita-style" somehow isn't. In fact truth becomes irrelevant in such a scenario. If all it takes is "what's right for you" then what you're saying is THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Which is absolutely illogical, especially if you are "Absolutely sure" about that. Razz

quote:
DUDE. The problem is NOBODY can scientifically study ANY OF THAT $#**!!!!!! F***ING NOBODY!!!!!


quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Exactly. My sarcasm had a point: that you were acting as if you were stating a documented fact, that "there are good angels and bad angels." If there is no objective evidence to that effect -- only the words of a text designed to promote one religion over others -- then you haven't said anything.


The documentation comes from the Bible and I trust that it is a CORRECT source.

quote:
Dude there's a difference here that you are NOT SEEING. Now a wink is as good as a nod to a blind donkey, but allowing something is NOT the same as commanding it.

Slavery was NOT "commanded" by God, but it was allowed because the slaves were either PRISONERS OF WAR or INDENTURED SERVANTS. Either way they f***ing DESERVED IT, in that instance in Israel times. Slavery such as WE know of the 18th century is NOT THE SAME.

Concubines were ALLOWED, but NOT COMMANDED.


quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
I specifically said "condoned," which has a meaning close to "allowed," but nowhere near "commanded." So I know you're not trying to say that I said "commanded."

Whatever

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
A religious text that is supposed to set forth standards of human morality is false if it doesn't ban slavery and human property.

I'm curious as to what you are basing this "absolutism" on. What proof can you offer of the truth of your above statement? ON WHAT DO YOU BASE YOUR STANDARDS OF MORALITY????

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
This book tells us that, by your own admission, God is okay with slaves and concubines, but absolutely bans having sexual thoughts about someone else's wife. That's ridiculous.


God is OK with slaves under particular circumstances! Prisoners of War, foreign sales, and PEOPLE IN DEBT. With a FEW exceptions, MOST were to be FREED after a certain period of time!!!!! Didn't you read what I said way above? Did you not COMPREHEND it? Jeebuz cripes man. Don't try to misrepresent God's position here. God (especially Jesus) used the IMAGERY of slavery to get his point across about how SIN affects mankind! How could he say we are a SLAVE to sin, if there was no slavery and nobody knew what it was like???? God sometimes allows $#** we can't comprehend, FOR A HIGHER PURPOSE.

A concubine BY DEFINITION IS NOT SOMEONE ELSE'S WIFE!!!!! Concubine is basically a fancy term for common-law wife (or live-in girlfriend). God wasn't too happy to tolerate it, but made some concessions for the sake of the reproduction of mankind at the time (including the toleration of polygamy). Jesus got questioned about this stuff by the Pharisees and he knocked them back on their asses.

quote:
Back in those days, slavery WASN'T "selfish robbery of a person's rights" because indentured servants brought that $#** on themselves cuz they couldn't handle money.


quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Ahhh, so God's morality, you're saying, is less advanced than 21st century humans'. If we sought to impose these penalties today, most normal people would view that as an outrage.


Look dude, we don't always know why God allows things to happen that we consider to be bad. I mean c'mon, he let the Israelites languish for 400 years in Egypt being slaves. He had a darned good reason to let it happen. Scripture is filled with references to slavery as to what Sin does to Man. If people didn't know what slavery WAS, not even a f***ing CLUE, (400 years of slavery under the Egyptians would surely not be forgotten), then comparing sin to slavery would be lost on people.

quote:

Dude God is NEVER WRONG.


quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
This is why this discussion is pointless. I didn't say he ever is. I said that if the Bible says God believes something that is clearly wrong, the BIBLE is wrong about it. The clear import of this statement is that God is not wrong.


What you are not explaining is dude WHERE did YOU get YOUR moral code?????

quote:
DUDE. WHERE does objective morality COME FROM?


quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
God. Not the Bible. Get it?

But everything we know about God COMES from the Bible. That is how he is revealed. He sure as hell doesn't TALK to people directly these days.

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
The point is, again, that religion is BELIEF. Belief in vodou is no less valid than belief in what you believe.


Bull. Religion REQUIRES belief, but it is not in and of itself belief. See, here you are getting into the subjective morality thinking. Belief in just ANYTHING isn't gonna getcha anywhere. Voodoo placates gods with sacrifices, even when the Last Sacrifice made by Christ it all redundant. HOW can TWO (or more) TOTALLY CONTRADICTORY BELIEFS BE EQUALLY VALID? That's illogical nonsense. Either one is right and one is wrong, or they're both wrong and a third option is "correct."

quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Obviously, you can't believe in BOTH, so if you believe in one, you disbelieve the other. That's fine. But to trumpet your beliefs as fact, when you can't prove it or support it with objective evidence, is stupid.


NO. It's NOT stupid. The Bible is the objective evidence. Beliefs have to have SOME BASIS in fact or they are futile.

BTW, the fact that the SERPENT features heavily in Voodoo is significant, considering Satan's first guise in tempting Adam and Eve was a SERPENT...and the supreme deity of Voodoo is called Bon Dieu (literally "Good God")...which is what Luciferians refer to Lucifer (Satan) as.

It's no surprise the Catholics really didn't like this, considering veneration of the Dead is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN by God. THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING! Magic is forbidden too, so there's the double whammy.

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh

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