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quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
"Butterflies," the type of intense "shot-out" feelings so strong that you think about the person all the time, and you.

Do adult men experience these feelings? Are we supposed to? Is there something wrong if we don't? Is there something wrong if we do?



i guess that is love, but then again, i'm still in the mindset of women being a dime a dozen. I guess feeling the way you described mean that you may have found 'THE ONE'

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Who in the hell left the gate open??? Confused
Somebody put roots on me Frown


G.O.M.A.B., H.O.B.O., M.O.B., and B.B.H. Rules of life!!!
Probably, but every feeling we have is neurochemical in nature. But for years, I haven't felt this way, and before I go much further, I should probably make sure what the nature of this lack of feeling is, or if I should even characterize it as a lack.

Women definitely feel this way when they're in love. But I wonder if most men do as well. And if we don't, is it neurochemically natural or is it due to some kind of social type of thing?
Point of clarification: what's your love life been like over this period? Have you been with the same woman? Have you been dating extensively? Have you been involved with the type of women who have traditionally been of high regard to you? Have there been women that you've been very physically attracted to, but not emotionally?



There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela
How to answer this one... I have found that my feelings for women, over most of my life, would get intense when a particular type of woman showed interest in me during a point in my life when I wasn't feeling particularly good about myself. During periods when I felt fine, the intensity was never there. Some of you already know that I basically cured what ailed me 5 years ago. So the feelings about myself have been solid ever since. But I haven't had the stronger feelings for anybody at all, since then. Even for women that I once did have such feelings for.

One of two things is going on: either (A) curing depression created some kind of dampening effect on my romantic emotions; or (B) Curing depression helped foster the healthy kind of confidence that freed me from the need for validation, which in turn resulted in the intensity whenever I got the validation.

Even in earlier years, during the brief periods between the misery, I would get no intensity. Was that normal, or was the intensity normal, is the basic question I've been trying to figure out. Unfortunately, I can never get a straight description from other brothers about what it is they feel when they're "in love." So I don't have a point of reference to compare my feelings with. I don't know whether what I have now is fine, or not. If it's normal, then I can stop thinking there's more out there, and be happy. If it's not, then I can move accordingly.

I've been wondering about this for 5 years. The current relationship is a little over 2 years old. I want some input. For the sake of candidness, guys can private message me if they wish.
Peace...



quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
"Butterflies," the type of intense "shot-out" feelings so strong that you think about the person all the time, and you.

Do adult men experience these feelings? Are we supposed to? Is there something wrong if we don't? Is there something wrong if we do?



I have loved a few women in my life..

Each time was different...There are layers..

Sometimes love can be so intense that you feel almost as if you are in sleepless dream..Even when you are with your lover you cannot get enough of them..I think they call that "Loves rapture". While enraptured there is no space, time, or world outside...



Whirling Moat
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
But I'm wondering if that is love. Is there anyone here who knows they've been in love, but didn't feel the above described feelings? Is that love or something else? If it's love, is there a such thing as truly being love, but without the above feelings?


Yes. I've had that feeling as an adult.

IMO no it is not love (although perhaps it can grow into love). I like to think of it as a type of "karmic connection". There is something about the person that strongly resonates with you subconsciously. But it's not necessarily healthy.

In my case, she was definitely bad for me.

Yes I've also been in love and didn't feel that.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:


There is something about the person that strongly resonates with you. But it's not necessarily healthy.



This is my assessment too, of what most people call love...

What would you say is your demarcation line between "chemistry" and "love".. How do you define each??

quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:


I have loved a few women in my life..

Each time was different...There are layers..

Sometimes love can be so intense that you feel almost as if you are in sleepless dream..Even when you are with your lover you cannot get enough of them..I think they call that "Loves rapture". While enraptured there is no space, time, or world outside...



Whirling Moat


Moat.. are you defining love by the intensity of your desire?
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:


There is something about the person that strongly resonates with you. But it's not necessarily healthy.



This is my assessment too, of what most people call love...

What would you say is your demarcation line between "chemistry" and "love".. How do you define each??



I believe there is a level of conscious decision about love. Chemistry happens in the beginning of a relationship. It is intense on the level of desire. Love is the fruition of its development. Chemistry is the blossom. Love is the mature fruit.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:


There is something about the person that strongly resonates with you. But it's not necessarily healthy.



This is my assessment too, of what most people call love...

What would you say is your demarcation line between "chemistry" and "love".. How do you define each??



I believe there is a level of conscious decision about love. Chemistry happens in the beginning of a relationship. It is intense on the level of desire. Love is the fruition of its development. Chemistry is the blossom. Love is the mature fruit.


well..

damn...


ummm wow.. well stated... tfro
Peace...


quote:
Moat.. are you defining love by the intensity of your desire?



No...

I agree with HB when he says that love is the Fruit of a relationship...This is especially true in a disjointed civilization where people have to discover that they love one another after a relationship has already matured..

There are those who watch love develop as an epiphenomena of chemistry or as a result of devotion and service. There is profundity in this..

However...

There are some who are potentially in love yet have never met one another..They are like fractions separated by circumstance..When they meet they instantly connect on the most profound level, and they achieve instantaneously what others find as a result of work and time. In this event one can feel as if they have known the other for a lifetime..

Both reactions can result from chemistry however one is more powerful that the other.


Whirling Moat
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
There are some who are potentially in love yet have never met one another..They are like fractions separated by circumstance..When they meet they instantly connect on the most profound level, and they achieve instantaneously what others find as a result of work and time. In this event one can feel as if they have known the other for a lifetime.
Both reactions can result from chemistry however one is more powerful that the other.


There is a line from Tom Cruise's The Firm, in which he asks his wife after a break-up "Have I lost you?" and she (Jean Tripplehorn) replies "How could you have lost me? I've loved you long before I knew you".

Although this is rare, it occurs. Fractions separated by circumstance is an excellent way to describe this...

I concur wrt the "conscious decision" about love, which imo occurs through what you describe as a "result of devotion and service". People with the best of chemistry still have to consciously develop a functional, mutually affirming relationship for "love" to develop and last...


quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Was that normal, or was the intensity normal, is the basic question I've been trying to figure out.


Vox, if I may ask, what did you conclude? Which of your two scenarios is "normal"?
Peace...


quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
This is especially true in a disjointed civilization where people have to discover that they love one another after a relationship has already matured..



You believe it is possible to experience true "love" BEFORE entering a relationship??


mmmk...



Yes...

I will provide you with an example. Sometimes a woman will have a man who she knows to be better for someone else..She may actually meet the woman and begins to work to undermine a relationship which has yet to form..The two people may not have even met, however, her insecurioty is not in what they have, but what they will have once they interact.

On some level we all understand this.



Whirling Moat
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
Peace...


quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
This is especially true in a disjointed civilization where people have to discover that they love one another after a relationship has already matured..



You believe it is possible to experience true "love" BEFORE entering a relationship??


mmmk...



Yes...

I will provide you with an example. Sometimes a woman will have a man who she knows to be better for someone else..She may actually meet the woman and begins to work to undermine a relationship which has yet to form..The two people may not have even met, however, her insecurioty is not in what they have, but what they will have once they interact.

On some level we all understand this.



Whirling Moat


I agree.. but don't you think the insecurity is in that she thinks the other woman will be more attractive to the man than she is???

How do you think the insecure woman knows that the two will be in LOVE???

And regardless of her insecure premonitions.. If they do meet and are attracted.. how can you justify the occurrence of LOVE BEFORE the relationship starts?? Confused

That seems like chemistry only.. If you agree with HB's response that Love is the fruition of a relationship then how can this be???

I'd have to understand your definition of love to know what you're talking about.. otherwise I can see "chemistry" "desire" and/or "deep attraction" but..

Love?

It seems like the example you gave degrades and does not do justice to the word...
Peace...



quote:
That seems like chemistry only.. If you agree with HB's response that Love is the fruition of a relationship then how can this be???



I have already provided my answer to this..See my previous responses..

When I say that they love one another before they meet I am speaking to the fact that love will arise between these two as a direct result of the chemistry.

I agree that a lasting love will require more than simple interaction however the love which develops happens so quickly between those with certain chemistry that it is reminiscent of the inflationary period predicted as part of the early universe.

The reaction is a Juggernaut of reactions...



perhaps what I am saying to you will require a little more thought on your part..


Whirling Moat
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
the love which develops happens so quickly between those with certain chemistry that it is reminiscent of the inflationary period predicted as part of the early universe.

The reaction is a Juggernaut of reactions...




How are you defining love because it sounds like what you've described is a series of intense emotional reactions..? Which is why I asked initially if you consider love an intense desire..

You've provided no other points outside of this for me to think about..

that seems like a degradation of the definition of love which comes about as a result of a real relationship...

but.. mmmk..

gotta go..
quote:
Originally posted by shulamite:
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
There are some who are potentially in love yet have never met one another..They are like fractions separated by circumstance..When they meet they instantly connect on the most profound level, and they achieve instantaneously what others find as a result of work and time. In this event one can feel as if they have known the other for a lifetime.
Both reactions can result from chemistry however one is more powerful that the other.


There is a line from Tom Cruise's The Firm, in which he asks his wife after a break-up "Have I lost you?" and she (Jean Tripplehorn) replies "How could you have lost me? I've loved you long before I knew you".


What I got out of this statement was that she was saying that, he was everything she had hoped for/dreamed of/desired in a mate ... before she met him ... and that upon meeting, he had, in effect, fulfilled a space that was already cut out for him, so to speak!

The 'soul mate' syndrome, if you will.

Is that the same thing you are saying? Confused
Peace...


quote:
What I got out of this statement was that she was saying that, he was everything she had hoped for/dreamed of/desired in a mate ... before she met him ... and that upon meeting, he had, in effect, fulfilled a space that was already cut out for him, so to speak!



Yep...

I guess it is difficult for some to understand this..

Love is not a job. Love is not a requirement...

Allow me to quote Khalil Gibran:

Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself.
Love possesses not nor would it be possessed;
For love is sufficient unto love.

When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart," but rather, "I am in the heart of God."
And think not you can direct the course of love, for love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.


I think that "God is Love" is a very accurate statement in that Love is a Prime force and a state of consciousness all at once.

I do not think we create love...We enter into the state of Love.

The velocity of our entrance is determined by the power of the chemical reaction in certain cases..If there is not a measurable chemistry then love can be the result of other intentional manipulations such as work, and fulfilling a persons needs...



Whirling Moat
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
he had, in effect, fulfilled a space that was already cut out for him, ... The 'soul mate' syndrome, if you will. Is that the same thing you are saying?


Yes, it is. I'm hesitant to use "soulmate" language (since I don't think being soulmates is a pre-requisite to a good or happy marriage), but yes, in effect... this would approach soulmate status.

quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat: I think that "God is Love" is a very accurate statement in that Love is a Prime force and a state of consciousness all at once.


Yes. My father, a psychologist, told me once that true love involved loving the person "cosmically". Outside of their relationship to you and others, even outside of their self-understanding. That, on some level, when you truly love a person, you love them simply because they are.

To me, this is the basis of empathy. Love, whether chemistry is involved or not, requires at its foundation the ability to see your beloved's value in the universe as you would hope to see your own, irrespective of whether you're involved with them or not...

And I guess, to answer Vox's initial question, I believe that this empathetic love (based on something other than emotion) would trump even the most ardent chemistry. And, yes, men are as capable of doing this as women...
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
Peace...


quote:
What I got out of this statement was that she was saying that, he was everything she had hoped for/dreamed of/desired in a mate ... before she met him ... and that upon meeting, he had, in effect, fulfilled a space that was already cut out for him, so to speak!



Yep...

I guess it is difficult for some to understand this..


Maybe if I brush up on my movie watching I'll get it... *shrugs*

quote:


Love is not a job. Love is not a requirement...


I don't believe chemistry is a job or a requirement..


quote:


Allow me to quote Khalil Gibran:

Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself.
Love possesses not nor would it be possessed;
For love is sufficient unto love.

When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart," but rather, "I am in the heart of God."
And think not you can direct the course of love, for love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.


That's nice.. I used to be heavily into Khalil Gibran.. much of his poetry is stirring.. I find it sad, that he died unmarried and without someone though.. I think the woman he loved they had an off again on again relationship until she just left him..

but I can tell by his poetry he sure does have this "love" thing down don't he?

quote:
I think that "God is Love" is a very accurate statement in that Love is a Prime force and a state of consciousness all at once.


Which God dear?

The mysitical invisible one? The white one on the cross? The one equal to nature? The multidimensional consciousness? Osiris? which one? and how do we utilize this as a marker when we "FEEL" things?

Do we say "Awww boy you know I am sooo feeling mystical and invisible force love for you right now???"

quote:
I do not think we create love...We enter into the state of Love.


I agree with this.. I'm not sure we agree on how we achieve the state.. well. I don't agree or disagree with you.. like you said I don't understand your vantage point of love...


I do believe when we are able to define what love is to us clearly then many people will be in a better position to distinguish between their emotions which have more to do with their temporary desires than anything else..

At the end of the day one has to ask themselves... what is this that I'm feeling ?

An emotion? or a prime force?


At any rate.. I think it's interesting.. I wonder if YOU have ever experienced that prime force? if so, how many times is the force moving you? and if not, why not?

and more importantly outside of your own experience either way.. how can anyone else know and discern what they are going through based off of your definitions... This God is Love thing is so.. "out there" to me...

well..

you know what?

never mind... don't answer...

I think I know...

Peace,

Love...


To answer the Original question:
quote:

Do adult men experience these feelings? Are we supposed to? Is there something wrong if we don't? Is there something wrong if we do?


I think there is nothing wrong with anyone male or female experiencing intense desire for someone with whom they would like or are in a relationship with... I think if you don't feel it for someone there is nothing wrong.. you just don't.. I don't think one should stay in a relationship where this is non existent or does not even have the chance of existing however...
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:

quote:


Allow me to quote Khalil Gibran:

Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself.
Love possesses not nor would it be possessed;
For love is sufficient unto love.

When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart," but rather, "I am in the heart of God."
And think not you can direct the course of love, for love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.


That's nice.. I used to be heavily into Khalil Gibran.. much of his poetry is stirring.. I find it sad, that he died unmarried and without someone though.. I think the woman he loved they had an off again on again relationship until she just left him..

but I can tell by his poetry he sure does have this "love" thing down don't he?


lol


I can certainly relate to what whirling moat is saying.

I'm a reformed romantic myself (and yes I've read the poets).

But a little life (and reflection upon the fact that the poets usually had less than satisfactory relationships) have made me a bit less grandiose in my romantic aspirations. 9 3
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
Peace...

Yes...

I will provide you with an example. Sometimes a woman will have a man who she knows to be better for someone else..She may actually meet the woman and begins to work to undermine a relationship which has yet to form..The two people may not have even met, however, her insecurioty is not in what they have, but what they will have once they interact.

On some level we all understand this.



Man, you spoke VOLUMES here.....and I agree with that assessment!

tfro

"Wisdom Is A Woman Paying Attention!"
Peace...


quote:
Yes. My father, a psychologist, told me once that true love involved loving the person "cosmically". Outside of their relationship to you and others, even outside of their self-understanding. That, on some level, when you truly love a person, you love them simply because they are.



Shulamite, your father seems to be a very wise man. I agree with his thoughts as it relates to this subject. While it may seem daunting, I think loving one cosmically would be quite effortless. Love operates by it's own power.

quote:
To me, this is the basis of empathy. Love, whether chemistry is involved or not, requires at its foundation the ability to see your beloved's value in the universe as you would hope to see your own, irrespective of whether you're involved with them or not...


I agree, and to further this point I believe that we truly love the ones who mirror ourselves in some intrinsic way. Seeing your mate's value is seeing a reflection of your own value.



Whirling Moat
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
to further this point I believe that we truly love the ones who mirror ourselves in some intrinsic way.


This is it. This type of person, in effect, becomes the other me...


The question, that maybe I'm hearing from Vox, is whether you need "the other me" and all of the accompanying feelings of exhilaration to have a viable and happy relationship. I say no...

The issue with western culture is that somehow we have made "the other me", the soulmate, an emotional pre-requisite for permission to have a relationship. And I think we rob ourselves of perfectly satisfactory relationships when doing so.
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
Peace...


quote:
Yes. My father, a psychologist, told me once that true love involved loving the person "cosmically". Outside of their relationship to you and others, even outside of their self-understanding. That, on some level, when you truly love a person, you love them simply because they are.



Shulamite, your father seems to be a very wise man. I agree with his thoughts as it relates to this subject. While it may seem daunting, I think loving one cosmically would be quite effortless. Love operates by it's own power.


This cosmic love is IMO at the basis of "Love thy neighbor as thyself".

Its general application is only effortless for saints ... And in the end ... no one ... not even the beloved ... is wholly the mirror of oneself ... unless one gets out of oneself.

Its not easy to love the criminal ... until you realize that you are the criminal ...

There but for the Grace of God ...



quote:
To me, this is the basis of empathy. Love, whether chemistry is involved or not, requires at its foundation the ability to see your beloved's value in the universe as you would hope to see your own, irrespective of whether you're involved with them or not...



I am the bridegroom and the bride ... the saint and the sinner ...
Peace...



quote:
The question, that maybe I'm hearing from Vox, is whether you need "the other me" and all of the accompanying feelings of exhilaration to have a viable and happy relationship. I say no...


I do not believe that you must have the "soulmate" quality in order to enjoy a viable and happy existence. If those who do not share powerful chemistry work hard enough they can replicate a synthetic bond. Sometimes this is sufficient.

These relationships require alot of conscious work. Sometimes the circumstances require that we invest into a relationship and use our own kinetic power to drive it forth..Despite pain, fatigue, deprivity..We are obligated...We endure..And there are those who sing our praises and exalt our relationship.."You see, they have been together for umphteen years and they have kept it together.." Some will say..However, they have no idea of the sacrifice which goes into being "happy" in this kind of relationship.

Imagine a world where you do not have to work for love. A world where love wakes you in the morning, and it pleases you to serve your beloved.

You don't have to spend time together on tailored dates..Everywhere is a date..You can go to pay the cable bill and enjoy the time..

HonestBrother called me a romantic and I am that..I am also a realist and I know that sometimes the "dreams of youth are the regrets of maturity" (Legend 1985) , however
knowing what is should not blind us to how things should be.

Love should not be hard..

quote:
The issue with western culture is that somehow we have made "the other me", the soulmate, an emotional pre-requisite for permission to have a relationship. And I think we rob ourselves of perfectly satisfactory relationships when doing so.




I think we are in alot of trouble on this front. At the least we want to be happy. If we engage a relationship which requires constant mainttenance we will eventually get tired. In this state of exhaustion we are susceptible to others who see our fatigue and offer us free..Free..solace, comfort, laughs, and companionship..No strings..Just because they enjoy our company..We remember how it should be..And this further erodes our relationship, and makes the work to repair it even more difficult. Eventually there will be a crisis and a crash.

In the past there was communal support in times of crisis which would act like the strong nuclear force and despite the negative aspect in the relationship, or even the overwhelming neutrality, would pull it together and help to keep it strong..

We are missing that today..

Without this support we are positioned for this bang in one relationship after another..

In my world chemistry is worth waiting for..


Whirling Moat
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
In the past there was communal support in times of crisis which would act like the strong nuclear force and despite the negative aspect in the relationship, or even the overwhelming neutrality, would pull it together and help to keep it strong.. We are missing that today..


Agreed.

quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
In my world chemistry is worth waiting for..


I have to depart from this requirement in my own life.

Whirling Moat, what if you could change your "world"? Create the "communal support" possibility that you wish to see?

I'm trying. My extended family *was* fragmented, dysfunctional, and unsupportive during my childhood. But through hard work (from all of us) we have re-structured our family in my adulthood. We differ by faith and by politics. We have a world of hurt behind us.

But somehow, if I may borrow HB's "but for the grace of God", we created a community. And it's strong enough for me to bring a mate into the mix and realistically hope for a positive outcome, even if that mate is not my "other me".

Chemistry is great, and a boon, if one gets it. But I won't wait for chemistry to begin a family and establish the desperately needed cultural norms of communal support for the world I live in.
Peace....


quote:
I have to depart from this requirement in my own life.

Whirling Moat, what if you could change your "world"? Create the "communal support" possibility that you wish to see?

I'm trying. My extended family *was* fragmented, dysfunctional, and unsupportive during my childhood. But through hard work (from all of us) we have re-structured our family in my adulthood. We differ by faith and by politics. We have a world of hurt behind us.


But somehow, if I may borrow HB's "but for the grace of God", we created a community. And it's strong enough for me to bring a mate into the mix and realistically hope for a positive outcome, even if that mate is not my "other me".

Chemistry is great, and a boon, if one gets it. But I won't wait for chemistry to begin a family and establish the desperately needed cultural norms of communal support for the world I live in.


Shulamite, I sincerely wish you well.

If I could offer you one piece of advice it would be to find someone who has a support system relatively similiar to your own. Your family alone will not be enough nor will it be fair to have your loved ones in the position to help hold things together without an equal force working from his end towrd the same. This will keep things equal and provide two courts instead of one...

Perhaps a commonality in purpose and methodology toward acheiving the pursose can substitute for missing chemistry.
Oftimes passion is the byproduct of success while on a mission...There is great energy created when people overcome adversity together..

Once agtain, I am a realist like the next guy, nd i know that most of us will never find that one out of the billions of candidates that is perfect. I respect your determination to move forward despite this impediment. And again, I hope this works.


Whirling Moat
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
If I could offer you one piece of advice it would be to find someone who has a support system relatively similiar to your own. Your family alone will not be enough nor will it be fair to have your loved ones in the position to help hold things together without an equal force working from his end towrd the same. This will keep things equal and provide two courts instead of one...


Sage, sage advice. Though I'm not sure that the lack of familial structure and support on his side would automatically be a deal-breaker. It depends on the person. People have re-made themselves into wonderful mate-material in spite of impossible family backgrounds. My father and my mother have each done this.

But it takes time to observe this...

quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
Perhaps a commonality in purpose and methodology toward acheiving the pursose can substitute for missing chemistry. Oftimes passion is the byproduct of success while on a mission...There is great energy created when people overcome adversity together.



True. Well stated.


quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
Once again, I am a realist like the next guy, and I know that most of us will never find that one out of the billions of candidates that is perfect. I respect your determination to move forward despite this impediment. And again, I hope this works.


Thanks much. I hope so too.

shulamite
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
I do not believe that you must have the "soulmate" quality in order to enjoy a viable and happy existence.


I believe in "Soul Mates"...and the power behind that is astounding.

I don't think we only have one Soul Mate, HowEver...and I don't think this because I've had several "brushes" with this astounding power.

Once back in the day, I was getting on a city bus and this brotha was coming off....and we passed each other and just stared for what seemed like eternity. It's like time started going in slow motion...and to this day, I wonder what he's doing in life.

....there was another time I had such an encounter...more recently as a matter of fact...and the InDiviDual in question seems to keep coming over to the place where he knows I will be.

...all of that and situations in betwen.

But on to the next point....

quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
If those who do not share powerful chemistry work hard enough they can replicate a synthetic bond. Sometimes this is sufficient.

These relationships require alot of conscious work. Sometimes the circumstances require that we invest into a relationship and use our own kinetic power to drive it forth..Despite pain, fatigue, deprivity..We are obligated...We endure..And there are those who sing our praises and exalt our relationship.."You see, they have been together for umphteen years and they have kept it together.." Some will say..However, they have no idea of the sacrifice which goes into being "happy" in this kind of relationship.


That is sufficient until they eventually divorce, because in truth, SomeThing is missing and they both know it...and they know they are only "keeping up appearances".

It is usually only a matter of TIME until one or both of them just throw in the towel, citing "irreconcilable differences".

quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
Imagine a world where you do not have to work for love. A world where love wakes you in the morning, and it pleases you to serve your beloved.

You don't have to spend time together on tailored dates..Everywhere is a date..You can go to pay the cable bill and enjoy the time..

HonestBrother called me a romantic and I am that..I am also a realist and I know that sometimes the "dreams of youth are the regrets of maturity" (Legend 1985) , however
knowing what is should not blind us to how things should be.

Love should not be hard..


Ain't THAT the TRUTH!!!

I've often said that ReLationShips are work, but I agree that "love" should not be hard. I am reminded of the passage:

"If I speak with the tongues of Men and of Angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all KnowLedge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act UnBeComingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into a account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in UnRighteousNess, but rejoices with the Truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is KnowLedge, it will be done away.

For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I BeCame a Man, I did away with such childish things.

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love." -1st Corinthians 13

...and I think it telling that I turned directly to this passage when trying to ReCall it in its entirety.

That type of LOVE is UniVersal, but how much more powerful would it be in a one-on-one ReLationShip?

It gets down to considering the other InDiviDual as you consider YourSelf.

HowEver, I don't think that we can rely on another InDiviDual to be Our Self. No one can be me, but me...I hear people say all of the time, "my other half," like part of them is missing WithOut that person...and that is such faulty thinking!

Another person CAN NOT complete you, because you are AlReady complete. Now, some may be out of their minds, but in NO WAY are they missing a piece of ThemSelves. LOL.

We each were created whole and to rely upon another to "complete you" is so selfish...MoreOver, it is entirely UnFair because it places the burden upon another InDiviDual to be your God.

We each have to do our own WORK, before we drive SomeOne else crazy trying to "fix" us on the daily grind.

quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
In my world chemistry is worth waiting for..


yeah

I'd rather take my time and do it right the first time, rather than rush it and UltiMateLy, force it with SomeOne as a means to "make it work" along a more DesireAble time frame.

After all, Good Things Come To Those Who Wait!

"Wisdom Is A Woman ReSpecting the Original Design!"
Just a quick note:

If one needs chemistry to begin a relationship then they will wait blindly for an unspecified time, which will be very difficult to measure... As the recipe for this type of bond may never come before them as an opportunity and may be found among unlikely sources.. the people we think we SHOULD have chemistry with.. we don't.. sometimes it's okay to venture out and explore other possibilities.. to increase our probability.. you never know.. you know? If we make the mistake of thinking however that such magnetism is "love" we will become disappointed when we inevitably realize that commitment is not endemic to chemistry.. its a pleasure not a dedication...


If one will take any relationship, whether it has chemistry or not, or seeks a relationship and does not make chemistry a necessity.. then that person shouldn't have a problem finding someone they do not genuinely and deeply vibe with.. plenty of people to develop a "liking" to.. this person should not be without a mate for too long.. the problem is when their mate actually runs into someone they genuinely have chemistry with they will have to rely on their "vow" to remain loyal... rather than the deep satisfaction of peace that comes along with someone "getting" you... This person will be forced to choose loyalty over peace... And that can be it's own personal hell. And if that person chooses loyalty.. (which we all see as honorable).. then the person who does not have their heart may too go through their own personal hell when they realize that the person they're with is only there because they're obligated to or feel guilted into being there.. but their heart, their true happiness belongs to/with someone else...
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Just a quick note:

If one needs chemistry to have a relationship then they will wait blindly for an unspecified time, very difficult to measure, as the recipe for this type of bond may never come and may be found among unlikely sources.....


I think chemistry is obvious...and it isn't as hard as all of that.

Again, I like what WM is getting at when he speaks of the fact that it is wonderful to meet someone you just "vibe with like that"....you have fun together, you laugh, you do what you do WithOut arguing EveryThing....each act is NOT a tug of war...rather it is a romantic interplay...a loving exchange between the TWO who see ThemSelves as one; they are on the same team, not enemies.

While ReLationShips can be work, they know it isn't work to genuinely love each other. They are naturally happy to be in each other's presence...and they are naturally happy to BE each other's present daily.

"Wisdom Is A Woman Liking Relaxation!"
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Whirling Moat:
Peace...


quote:
Yes. My father, a psychologist, told me once that true love involved loving the person "cosmically". Outside of their relationship to you and others, even outside of their self-understanding. That, on some level, when you truly love a person, you love them simply because they are.



Shulamite, your father seems to be a very wise man. I agree with his thoughts as it relates to this subject. While it may seem daunting, I think loving one cosmically would be quite effortless. Love operates by it's own power.


This cosmic love is IMO at the basis of "Love thy neighbor as thyself".

Its general application is only effortless for saints ... And in the end ... no one ... not even the beloved ... is wholly the mirror of oneself ... unless one gets out of oneself.

Its not easy to love the criminal ... until you realize that you are the criminal ...

There but for the Grace of God ...



quote:
To me, this is the basis of empathy. Love, whether chemistry is involved or not, requires at its foundation the ability to see your beloved's value in the universe as you would hope to see your own, irrespective of whether you're involved with them or not...



I am the bridegroom and the bride ... the saint and the sinner ...


yeah

Exactamundo!

"Wisdom Is A Woman Agreeing!"

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