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WARNING: This is very DisTurbing. Some SOULS are not ready for this.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5260680368467190237
"......Distinguishing TRUTH from falsehood" 'Change your words into truth And then change that truth into LOVE, And maybe our children's grandchildren , And their great-grandchildren will tell.'
Original Post
"They came with a doctrine and the sword", said the priestess.

One can only imagine how far, the religions from their beginnings that were backed by force, could've spread to have the kind of influence/impact on people today without the backing of force, by way of the gun and or the sword in the past.

Could christianity be what it is today in terms of the number of people who follow it in regards to how it gained it's global reach, historically?
Originally posted by Raptor
quote:
Could christianity be what it is today in terms of the number of people who follow it in regards to how it gained it's global reach, historically?


fro Hell to the Nawl....Christianity is based on SERVITUDE....i.e. God is the MASTER...in real life the only one to BENEFIT from this is MASSA...with "us" being his servants. Religion or any other man-made component should NEVER BE confused with SPIRITUALITY...apples and oranges. fro
What are the standards for determining whether a person is possessed with a demon or god? In either religion?

Are there mechanisms to evaluate the truthfulness of possession of a person either way.... or is it trusted that the person is telling the truth and not acting or totally buying in to becoming anexception in the community?

My questions are earnest... apologies beforehand if there is offense...
Last edited {1}
I was googling "Ghanaian Priestess" and found this sad article..:



Sacred Python Swallows Priestess
West African incident prompts questions about the nature of irrationality


Published 2006-07-08 14:56 (KST)



A story has been making the rounds of the Ghanaian blogosphere these last few days. It concerns the unfortunate death of a 55-year-old priestess at the shrine of an animist cult in northern Ghana.





©2001 Dutchman
She met her end at the hands, or to put it morbidly, mouth, of a giant African python. The python is the central figure of this cult, and is sacred both in its physical reptilian form and as a representation of unseen powers in the spirit realms.

Initially, I dismissed this story as mere fantasy, fabricated as a prank by a bored news editor to wind up her readers.

Now, major Ghanaian news outlets have picked up the story, and from what I read, it is more fact than fiction.

The facts as I will summarize them here come from Ghanaweb.com, Ghana's chief online media platform, and myjoyonline.com, the website of the most respected radio channel in the national capital.

Ghana (map) has 10 administrative regions which correspond vaguely to major ethnic communities.

The coastal regions are the hub of state institutions and civil societies. This is where Accra, the country's capital, is located. Most of the major educational establishments are also located around this area, as are the remnants of colonial rule and Ghana's one-time grandeur as the origination point of pan-Africanism.

The forest belts house the economic engines of the national production system. Here there are goldmines, cocoa farms and major tracts of timber and other land produce. If there is any such notion of a national culture in Ghana, then it is at its most palpable here. The famous kente cloth, akuaba dolls, and the court of West Africa's arguably most resplendent monarchy all feature as part of a truly colorful montage.

The country's northern area contains the most land. Mainly grassland, it supplies significant amounts of subsistence crops such as cereals and tubers.

Poverty is much more widespread in this region than anywhere else; and while mild undercurrents of ethnic tension are suffused all over Ghana, it is only this part of the country that has witnessed serious ruptures. There is also a greater level of adherence to Islam and to traditional or customary belief systems here than in the rest of the country.

The python-priestess event occurred in the northeastern part of this northern enclave.

On June 30 the Ghana News Agency reported that a giant python worshipped "as a god" in the town of Sapeliga had swallowed the priestess assigned to its care. To be more accurate, the report should have referred to the creature as a totem and a manifestation of the divine.

It had taken three days for the other members of the community to realize that the priestess was missing. This is not unusual given the usually reclusive lifestyle led by most African mystics, spiritualists and other holy figures.

As it happened, it was the lady's son who, returning to deliver items his mother had requested during an earlier visit, found the latter's absence unusual and raised the alarm for a search to begin.

After an extensive hunt it was eventually realized that the sacred python must have something to do with the situation. A decision was therefore made to kill and dissect the totemic creature, naturally after the necessary rituals associated with deicide had been performed.

It does not take much to imagine the utter horror and disgust, particularly of the son, when the decomposed body of the old lady was discovered in the belly of the python.

Until further ongoing investigations yield additional information the story ends here. But another one begins, concerning superstition.

It is easy to dismiss this account as an anthropological curiosity. Admitting, perhaps, that it is tragically comic, if also morbidly harrowing.

Some may regard such beliefs about the worship of pythons as mere vestiges of an irrational past intruding into a supposedly more enlightened present. But we ourselves are not immune from the grip of the past.

Rather than being futuristic, the modern-day obsession with extraterrestrial aliens can be seen as a throwback to a persistent attachment to an irrational past. After all, the angels of Judaism, the avatars of eastern religions and the divine visitors recorded in the sacred texts of Mesopotamia, and those of many parts of the ancient world, were even earlier designations of extraterrestrial beings.

Popular new age ideas combining yoga, acupuncture, feng shui, zen and the like also testify to the endurance of the past.

The elaborate theologies of our grandest religions all, at a basic level, hark back to the same old concerns present even in the most rudimentary of belief systems. The most important of which is, what is mankind's true place amongst the hierarchies of creation?

Could what is detectible to the senses and accessible to rational thought be all there is to life and reality? Surely not. After all, some animals, birds and insects are able to see colors and hear sounds that humans are unable to detect. Might they also possess rational faculties of which we know nothing about because our state of knowledge does not permit such cognition?

Following this line of argument, who can say that the python wasn't really a supernatural entity expressing divine displeasure?

How irrational is superstition? Is it perhaps an acknowledgement that humankind can not know everything about the world, and that there will always be something beyond our capacity of comprehension?

You might argue that irrationality can be found in the instances where people cling to beliefs regardless of the fact that new knowledge clearly undermines any basis for holding them.

But take a pause and consider some rather commonplace and socially counter-intuitive attitudes such as racism, Islamophobia and anti-Semitism. Is our argument really that all those who hold such abhorrent mindsets are uninformed, irrational, schizoids?

Isn't it really the case that bigots are people who organize knowledge in a rational way to produce beliefs that are wholly repugnant to the rest of us but inherently coherent to them?

When we look at some of the most emblematic exponents of these vile belief-systems we are struck by how many of them are or were highly-educated individuals who studied at prestigious institutions.

Nick Griffin, leader of the British National Party, a horrible neo-Nazi establishment, was educated at Cambridge. Enoch Powell, another Briton, credited with helping to erect the intellectual foundation of the anti-foreigner discourse in the United Kingdom, was a prize scholar at Cambridge's celebrated Trinity College. Marie Le Pen, of the xenophobic French political fringe, is said to have graduated with distinction from one of France's more prestigious Ecoles. Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's utterly depraved propagandist and an intellectual architect of the holocaust, was similarly reputed to have been a scholar of some merit.

To presume that people like these are united by a common thread of irrational ignorance is to presume a lot.

It is likely that they are as rational as any of us in the way in which they construct their world views. The difference is that they aim with painstaking calculation for conclusions that drive the rest of us to intense psychological trauma. This is rationality propelled to the utter limits of extremity.

So, having moved from the story of a priestess and a python to hideous intellectuals on Europe's political margins, it is to time to return to the central issue under discussion. How irrational is superstition?

My suspicion however is that this is a flawed question. What we really want to know is a more general unknown, how rational is the supposedly rational?

©2006 OhmyNews



which led to this article:

http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/NewsArchive/artikel.php?ID=106713

Revered python swallows its priestess


Sapeliga (U/E), June 30, GNA - A python revered as a god in the Sapeliga community near Bawku on Sunday night swallowed a 55-year-old fetish priestess assigned to be its mouthpiece.

While looking for the priestess who had been missing for three days, the inhabitants decided to slash the python into two, only to find her badly decomposed body.

Narrating the incident to the Ghana News Agency (GNA), Mr Sunday Ali, son of the deceased, said he visited the mother on Saturday on his way to Bawku from Zebilla and promised to bring her some items she had requested for.

He said on his return on Tuesday, he found the mother's door ajar, which suggested she had not gone far and decided to wait for her but she did not appear.

Mr Ali said after waiting for over two hours he entered the mother's room upon smelling a foul odour emitting from it, only to find the place in disarray and a left over soup that had gone bad. He said he went out to a neighbour to inquire about his mother's whereabouts but he was told she had not been seen since Sunday evening raising his suspicion of a bad omen befalling the mother.

Ali said together with other neighbours they combed the surroundings in vain before one of the elders of the oracle suggested that they should consult the god to tell the mother's whereabouts. According to Ali, as soon as the elder entered the python's enclosure he realised that the size of the god had bloated and called the attention of the rest.

He explained that the python could not move after some attempts to move it and this aroused their suspicion that it might have swallowed his mother so it was killed after performing some rituals. An assemblywoman, and a retired journalist of the Ghana News Agency, Madam Elizabeth Awini confirmed the incident and added that she had made several pleas to the community that it was dangerous to keep the python but they did not heed to her advice till this incident. The deceased has since been buried.
Originally posted by Khalliqa
quote:
What are the standards for determining whether a person is possessed with a demon or god? In either religion?

Are there mechanisms to evaluate the truthfulness of possession of a person either way.... or is it trusted that the person is telling the truth and not acting or totally buying in to becoming anexception in the community?

My questions are earnest... apologies beforehand if there is offense...



fro When I was little girl....sitting in the audience at church....daydreaming...counting the minutes until the preacher say his final amen...I witnessed out of no where...folks getting the holy spirit....speaking in tongue! these are the same folks at our sunday dinner. At first it skkkkkkared the shyte out of me! I mean....picture this as a child someone sitting next to you shaking....looking like they are going into a seizure...eyes in the back of the heads....jerking their bodies back and forth in full force and then speaking a language you NEVER heard of.... And then...as soon as it arrives....it disappears.... Well...once I see that...no more talking to THAT person! For real. Fast forward. twenty years later...one of my collegues became born again...and told me she spoke in tongue. I asked do she remembers anything during or after. She says "No!" God takes over and leads her to wherever at that moment. She seemed honest in her convictions....BUT! I'm not so sure. And this is ME speaking. I think it's DRAMA...I don't think it's spiritual....Cuz the same people experiencing this phenomenon can be seen Saturday GETTING their groove on in the SAME jerking back and forth motions....the motivating factor? GOD? No! Jack Daniels! Cuz in both instances folks DON'T remember a thang. Now as far as spirituality in Africa....I tend to believe the transformation since Spirituality....and the calling of it....derived from Africa. Much like the Amerindian rituals when calling to their God...in a spiritual....divine dance! Hence the wearing of the Mask in both cultures....the painting of the faces...AND both cultures have reasons to CALL ON THEIR GOD...in such a lavish and granduer[sp] manner. As a little girl...I was NEVER convinced what I saw in church in terms of speaking in tongue and receiving the holy spirit were REAL. Even when the preacher did it. Cuz before leaving church or not....in the mist of all this holy spirit or speaking in tongue tamborine...organ playing LOUDLY genre...boyfriend DID NOT let you get away WITHOUT putting your MONEY in OFFERING/worship plate passed around by the ushers AND doors were locked and an usher stood firmly in front of it...until that plate was PASSED around to everybody...including a six year old who didn't want to give up the pennies perfectly knotted in her lace and linen handerchief[sp]. So...in that I always felt "speaking in tongue and receiving the holy spirit" WERE entertainment for the congregation...cuz you want them to FEEL good when the leave CHURCH...right? But! JMHO....is all. fro
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
What are the standards for determining whether a person is possessed with a demon or god? In either religion?


Good question. There is a cosmology(that wasn't discussed at all) in the traditional practices. You get divination/readings and go through purification processes(before during and after initiation) that determine this. It's a a spiritual science. Unfortunately, this film only showed the ebo(sacrifice), in a ritual they were not supposed to tape BTW(Which I found highly disrespectful)... But there is an ongoing process that was not shown. Good and bad intentions for communion are also taken into account.

That's the main difference in the traditional worldview... What are your motivations regardles of path... are they to commune with spirit and create possitive outcomes, or are they to do 'work' for selfish, destructive, manipulative, and monitary purposes(witchcraft/sorcery)? Hence in the traditional worldview, and X-ian who honestly is trying to do good(say a Martin Luther King type) is communing. A person who is doing it to be rich, gain exploitive power, ect. is working with sorcery(Creflo Dollar)... and there is a whole range in between(some would say Martin exploiting his influence over women was a form of sorcery... but was outwayed by the 'good' he was doing) It's not so much about the path as it is the intent(like the priestess said 'people' are evil). Unfotunately certain paths have a cultural tendancy to push certain effects. The tendency for X-ianity to push for patriarchy(and demonize the devine feminine) was obvious in this film. That 'power' disproportionately attracts a particular 'type'.

In the X-ian religion it seems that anything that is outside of it's exclusivist Jesus labelling is a demon.

quote:
Are there mechanisms to evaluate the truthfulness of possession of a person either way.... or is it trusted that the person is telling the truth and not acting or totally buying in to becoming anexception in the community?


Yes, the process determines this.

quote:
My questions are earnest... apologies beforehand if there is offense...


No offense taken, I had the same questions before I became a devotee. I avoided some traditionaists because I saw their intent was not pure. The Ori(head) is your most powerful Orisha(force of nature).
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:
fro When I was little girl....sitting in the audience at church....daydreaming...counting the minutes until the preacher say his final amen...I witnessed out of no where...folks getting the holy spirit....speaking in tongue! these are the same folks at our sunday dinner. At first it skkkkkkared the shyte out of me! I mean....picture this as a child someone sitting next to you shaking....looking like they are going into a seizure...eyes in the back of the heads....jerking their bodies back and forth in full force and then speaking a language you NEVER heard of.... And then...as soon as it arrives....it disappears.... Well...once I see that...no more talking to THAT person! For real.


lol I was the weird kid who was fascinated instead of fearful.

quote:
Fast forward. twenty years later...one of my collegues became born again...and told me she spoke in tongue. I asked do she remembers anything during or after. She says "No!" God takes over and leads her to wherever at that moment. She seemed honest in her convictions....BUT! I'm not so sure. And this is ME speaking. I think it's DRAMA...I don't think it's spiritual....Cuz the same people experiencing this phenomenon can be seen Saturday GETTING their groove on in the SAME jerking back and forth motions....the motivating factor? GOD? No! Jack Daniels! Cuz in both instances folks DON'T remember a thang.


Hold up... I'm not so sure about that... There are some people who are faking trance(particularly if you here that Shamalama phrase that EVERYONE seems to say) but trance doesn't just happen in a spiritual ritual. Arguably... 'the club' causes a lot of trance. It has the same components(personally I think it is one of the resons that we as a people tend to love going so much)... You have drum, dance, and chanting/singing... and no suppression of sensuality/sexuality like the church. It's just that the 'intent' isn't balanced. It's one big mating ritual with no balanced societal structure orchestrating it's propper use. They don't call alcohol 'spirits' for nothing. We as a people stay in chuch and stay in the club... we are attracted TO BOTH because something is missing in both, something is out of balance... but neither are comletely fulfilling...(at least they aren't for me) Wink

quote:
Now as far as spirituality in Africa....I tend to believe the transformation since Spirituality....and the calling of it....derived from Africa. Much like the Amerindian rituals when calling to their God...in a spiritual....divine dance! Hence the wearing of the Mask in both cultures....the painting of the faces...AND both cultures have reasons to CALL ON THEIR GOD...in such a lavish and granduer[sp] manner. As a little girl...I was NEVER convinced what I saw in church in terms of speaking in tongue and receiving the holy spirit were REAL. Even when the preacher did it. Cuz before leaving church or not....in the mist of all this holy spirit or speaking in tongue tamborine...organ playing LOUDLY genre...boyfriend DID NOT let you get away WITHOUT putting your MONEY in OFFERING/worship plate passed around by the ushers AND doors were locked and an usher stood firmly in front of it...until that plate was PASSED around to everybody...including a six year old who didn't want to give up the pennies perfectly knotted in her lace and linen handerchief[sp]. So...in that I always felt "speaking in tongue and receiving the holy spirit" WERE entertainment for the congregation...cuz you want them to FEEL good when the leave CHURCH...right? But! JMHO....is all. fro


There is that 'intent' and use'... Ritual abuse... Our rituals are being 'abused'. The club and the church have the form but do not have the correct substance. The deeper you get into African spiritualuty... the more you can see how our main problem is a lack of balance and knowlege.
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
What are the standards for determining whether a person is possessed with a demon or god? In either religion?


Good question. There is a cosmology(that wasn't discussed at all) in the traditional practices. You get divination/readings and go through purification processes(before during and after initiation) that determine this. It's a apiritual scinece. Unfortunately this film only showed the ebo(sacrifice), in a ritual they were not supposed to tape BTW(Which I found highly disrespectful)...



Honestly, I did believe the reporters seemed disrespectful if the community of women asked them to turn off the camera...

quote:
But there is an ongoing process that was not shown. Good and bad intentions for communion are also taken into account.

That's the main difference in the traditional worldview... What are your motivations regardles of path... are they to commune with spirit and create possitive outcomes, or are they to do 'work' for selfish, destructive, manipulative, and monitary purposes(witchcraft/sorcery)?


Thank you for saying that... The video left much to be desired... I did not really think it did justice to either religion... and I know more about Christianity...

I thought highlighting the place of women in both communities was key and I liked the contrast of pointing out that... in one society women are evil and in the other they are treasured as divine...

quote:
Hence in the traditional worldview, and X-ian who honestly is trying to do good(say a Martin Luther King type) is communing. A person who is doing it to be rich, gain exploitive power, ect. is working with sorcery(Creflo Dollar)... and there is a whole range in between(some would say Martin exploiting his influence over women was a form of sorcery... but was outwayed by the 'good' he was doing) It's not so much about the path as it is the intent(like the pristess said 'people' are evil). Unfotunately certain paths have a cultural tendancy to push certain effects. The tendency for X-ianity to push for patriarchy(and demonize the devine feminine) was obvious in this film. That 'power' disproportionately attracts a particular 'type'.


OA... I will admit I will have to read more...

quote:
In the X-ian religion it seems that anything that is outside of it's exclusivist Jesus labelling is a demon.


I noticed that...

quote:
The Ori(head) is you most powerful Orisha(force of nature).


I like this...
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:
Originally posted by Khalliqa
quote:
What are the standards for determining whether a person is possessed with a demon or god? In either religion?

Are there mechanisms to evaluate the truthfulness of possession of a person either way.... or is it trusted that the person is telling the truth and not acting or totally buying in to becoming anexception in the community?

My questions are earnest... apologies beforehand if there is offense...



fro When I was little girl....sitting in the audience at church....daydreaming...counting the minutes until the preacher say his final amen...I witnessed out of no where...folks getting the holy spirit....speaking in tongue! these are the same folks at our sunday dinner. At first it skkkkkkared the shyte out of me! I mean....picture this as a child someone sitting next to you shaking....looking like they are going into a seizure...eyes in the back of the heads....jerking their bodies back and forth in full force and then speaking a language you NEVER heard of.... And then...as soon as it arrives....it disappears.... Well...once I see that...no more talking to THAT person! For real. Fast forward. twenty years later...one of my collegues became born again...and told me she spoke in tongue. I asked do she remembers anything during or after. She says "No!" God takes over and leads her to wherever at that moment. She seemed honest in her convictions....BUT! I'm not so sure. And this is ME speaking. I think it's DRAMA...I don't think it's spiritual....Cuz the same people experiencing this phenomenon can be seen Saturday GETTING their groove on in the SAME jerking back and forth motions....the motivating factor? GOD? No! Jack Daniels! Cuz in both instances folks DON'T remember a thang. Now as far as spirituality in Africa....I tend to believe the transformation since Spirituality....and the calling of it....derived from Africa. Much like the Amerindian rituals when calling to their God...in a spiritual....divine dance! Hence the wearing of the Mask in both cultures....the painting of the faces...AND both cultures have reasons to CALL ON THEIR GOD...in such a lavish and granduer[sp] manner. As a little girl...I was NEVER convinced what I saw in church in terms of speaking in tongue and receiving the holy spirit were REAL. Even when the preacher did it. Cuz before leaving church or not....in the mist of all this holy spirit or speaking in tongue tamborine...organ playing LOUDLY genre...boyfriend DID NOT let you get away WITHOUT putting your MONEY in OFFERING/worship plate passed around by the ushers AND doors were locked and an usher stood firmly in front of it...until that plate was PASSED around to everybody...including a six year old who didn't want to give up the pennies perfectly knotted in her lace and linen handerchief[sp]. So...in that I always felt "speaking in tongue and receiving the holy spirit" WERE entertainment for the congregation...cuz you want them to FEEL good when the leave CHURCH...right? But! JMHO....is all. fro


OMG... See... In my church we had women who "caught the spirit" at 12PM every Sunday as soon as communion was over... almost on cue... then they would go back to chewing tobacco IN CHURCH!!! In lovely dresses I might add.. but TOBACCO none the less! lol...

As a child I was always afraid of them... not that I thought that they were demonic... like those in the video... but honestly they just looked crazy... and intensely crazy... and I didn't see the point.... or how it was connected to Jesus at all... They would tear at their hair.. scream "Lawd! Lawd Jesus...!" and their bodies would go into convlusion... and after about 5 painful minutes they would just sit back down... slowly calling on the Lord..

It was just something the community tolerated... and expected... I thought it was weird...

and that was a Baptist Church... Eek until I visited a Holiness Church with entire members speaking in tongues...

I bolted.... ek


but they had some real good music though... dance
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:
Originally posted by Khalliqa
quote:
What are the standards for determining whether a person is possessed with a demon or god? In either religion?

Are there mechanisms to evaluate the truthfulness of possession of a person either way.... or is it trusted that the person is telling the truth and not acting or totally buying in to becoming anexception in the community?

My questions are earnest... apologies beforehand if there is offense...



fro When I was little girl....sitting in the audience at church....daydreaming...counting the minutes until the preacher say his final amen...I witnessed out of no where...folks getting the holy spirit....speaking in tongue! these are the same folks at our sunday dinner. At first it skkkkkkared the shyte out of me! I mean....picture this as a child someone sitting next to you shaking....looking like they are going into a seizure...eyes in the back of the heads....jerking their bodies back and forth in full force and then speaking a language you NEVER heard of.... And then...as soon as it arrives....it disappears.... Well...once I see that...no more talking to THAT person! For real. Fast forward. twenty years later...one of my collegues became born again...and told me she spoke in tongue. I asked do she remembers anything during or after. She says "No!" God takes over and leads her to wherever at that moment. She seemed honest in her convictions....BUT! I'm not so sure. And this is ME speaking. I think it's DRAMA...I don't think it's spiritual....Cuz the same people experiencing this phenomenon can be seen Saturday GETTING their groove on in the SAME jerking back and forth motions....the motivating factor? GOD? No! Jack Daniels! Cuz in both instances folks DON'T remember a thang. Now as far as spirituality in Africa....I tend to believe the transformation since Spirituality....and the calling of it....derived from Africa. Much like the Amerindian rituals when calling to their God...in a spiritual....divine dance! Hence the wearing of the Mask in both cultures....the painting of the faces...AND both cultures have reasons to CALL ON THEIR GOD...in such a lavish and granduer[sp] manner. As a little girl...I was NEVER convinced what I saw in church in terms of speaking in tongue and receiving the holy spirit were REAL. Even when the preacher did it. Cuz before leaving church or not....in the mist of all this holy spirit or speaking in tongue tamborine...organ playing LOUDLY genre...boyfriend DID NOT let you get away WITHOUT putting your MONEY in OFFERING/worship plate passed around by the ushers AND doors were locked and an usher stood firmly in front of it...until that plate was PASSED around to everybody...including a six year old who didn't want to give up the pennies perfectly knotted in her lace and linen handerchief[sp]. So...in that I always felt "speaking in tongue and receiving the holy spirit" WERE entertainment for the congregation...cuz you want them to FEEL good when the leave CHURCH...right? But! JMHO....is all. fro


OMG... See... In my church we had women who "caught the spirit" at 12PM every Sunday as soon as communion was over... almost on cue... then they would go back to chewing tobacco IN CHURCH!!! In lovely dresses I might add.. but TOBACCO none the less! lol...

As a child I was always afraid of them... not that I thought that they were demonic... like those in the video... but honestly they just looked crazy... and intensely crazy... and I didn't see the point.... or how it was connected to Jesus at all... They would tear at their hair.. scream "Lawd! Lawd Jesus...!" and their bodies would go into convlusion... and after about 5 painful minutes they would just sit back down... slowly calling on the Lord..

It was just something the community tolerated... and expected... I thought it was weird...

and that was a Baptist Church... Eek until I visited a Holiness Church with entire members speaking in tongues...

I bolted.... ek


but they had some real good music though... dance




LOLOLOLOLOL....yeah, I never got into any of that Holyness crap either...

I couldn't help but notice the similarity of that "on que" happening...

I was told once by a pastor that if I did not get the "holy ghost" (his meaning speaking in tongues) then God did not acknowledge me....


.....so I laughed at him...very hard...made my eyes big, and started clicking my tongue...lol.

Then I let out an, "I can hear you now Jesus!"...and laughed my head off...

You should have seen him go off....hehehehe.



In any event, I will be able to watch the video a lil later this evening. I'm always interested in watching "possession" and how it is explained by others.

"Wisdom Is A Woman (clicking her tongue and making her eyes big right now)!"
fro @Sista K....don't get me startedlol but as I got I older I received somewhat of an epiphany...in that...maybe all that jerking back and forth...were the gods from Africa trying to get back in their souls....but! were blocked cuz that mentality had already set in. And African spirits are willful....meaning you have a choice to whether or not allow it to come in your "ka".... but sistagurl.... after a few of those performances in church...they [my family] had to go look for me on sundays...[I was hiding in the crawl space underneath the house] and find me kickin' and screamin' cuz I did not want to SEE that again. But you're RIGHT! The music was awesome....and STILL is. One time I tried just going there for the "music"...and sneak out just before pastor pimp came to the podium..But oh OMG...the preacher got smart and had the choir SING after his sermon. So there I was "stuck" again. fro
quote:
Originally posted by ShayaButHer:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:
Originally posted by Khalliqa
quote:
What are the standards for determining whether a person is possessed with a demon or god? In either religion?

Are there mechanisms to evaluate the truthfulness of possession of a person either way.... or is it trusted that the person is telling the truth and not acting or totally buying in to becoming anexception in the community?

My questions are earnest... apologies beforehand if there is offense...



fro When I was little girl....sitting in the audience at church....daydreaming...counting the minutes until the preacher say his final amen...I witnessed out of no where...folks getting the holy spirit....speaking in tongue! these are the same folks at our sunday dinner. At first it skkkkkkared the shyte out of me! I mean....picture this as a child someone sitting next to you shaking....looking like they are going into a seizure...eyes in the back of the heads....jerking their bodies back and forth in full force and then speaking a language you NEVER heard of.... And then...as soon as it arrives....it disappears.... Well...once I see that...no more talking to THAT person! For real. Fast forward. twenty years later...one of my collegues became born again...and told me she spoke in tongue. I asked do she remembers anything during or after. She says "No!" God takes over and leads her to wherever at that moment. She seemed honest in her convictions....BUT! I'm not so sure. And this is ME speaking. I think it's DRAMA...I don't think it's spiritual....Cuz the same people experiencing this phenomenon can be seen Saturday GETTING their groove on in the SAME jerking back and forth motions....the motivating factor? GOD? No! Jack Daniels! Cuz in both instances folks DON'T remember a thang. Now as far as spirituality in Africa....I tend to believe the transformation since Spirituality....and the calling of it....derived from Africa. Much like the Amerindian rituals when calling to their God...in a spiritual....divine dance! Hence the wearing of the Mask in both cultures....the painting of the faces...AND both cultures have reasons to CALL ON THEIR GOD...in such a lavish and granduer[sp] manner. As a little girl...I was NEVER convinced what I saw in church in terms of speaking in tongue and receiving the holy spirit were REAL. Even when the preacher did it. Cuz before leaving church or not....in the mist of all this holy spirit or speaking in tongue tamborine...organ playing LOUDLY genre...boyfriend DID NOT let you get away WITHOUT putting your MONEY in OFFERING/worship plate passed around by the ushers AND doors were locked and an usher stood firmly in front of it...until that plate was PASSED around to everybody...including a six year old who didn't want to give up the pennies perfectly knotted in her lace and linen handerchief[sp]. So...in that I always felt "speaking in tongue and receiving the holy spirit" WERE entertainment for the congregation...cuz you want them to FEEL good when the leave CHURCH...right? But! JMHO....is all. fro


OMG... See... In my church we had women who "caught the spirit" at 12PM every Sunday as soon as communion was over... almost on cue... then they would go back to chewing tobacco IN CHURCH!!! In lovely dresses I might add.. but TOBACCO none the less! lol...

As a child I was always afraid of them... not that I thought that they were demonic... like those in the video... but honestly they just looked crazy... and intensely crazy... and I didn't see the point.... or how it was connected to Jesus at all... They would tear at their hair.. scream "Lawd! Lawd Jesus...!" and their bodies would go into convlusion... and after about 5 painful minutes they would just sit back down... slowly calling on the Lord..

It was just something the community tolerated... and expected... I thought it was weird...

and that was a Baptist Church... Eek until I visited a Holiness Church with entire members speaking in tongues...

I bolted.... ek



but they had some real good music though... dance




LOLOLOLOLOL....yeah, I never got into any of that Holyness crap either...

I couldn't help but notice the similarity of that "on que" happening...

I was told once by a pastor that if I did not get the "holy ghost" (his meaning speaking in tongues) then God did not acknowledge me....


.....so I laughed at him...very hard...made my eyes big, and started clicking my tongue...lol.

Then I let out an, "I can hear you now Jesus!"...and laughed my head off...

You should have seen him go off....hehehehe.b




In any event, I will be able to watch the video a lil later this evening. I'm always interested in watching "possession" and how it is explained by others.

"Wisdom Is A Woman (clicking her tongue and making her eyes big right now)!"



20 'Yall are killing me! laugh
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kocolicious:
fro @Sista K....don't get me startedlol but as I got I older I received somewhat of an epiphany...in that...maybe all that jerking back and forth...were the gods from Africa trying to get back in their souls....but! were blocked cuz that mentality had already set in. And African spirits are willful....meaning you have a choice to whether or not allow it to come in your "ka"....

yeah
quote:
Originally posted by Fagunwa:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kocolicious:
fro @Sista K....don't get me startedlol but as I got I older I received somewhat of an epiphany...in that...maybe all that jerking back and forth...were the gods from Africa trying to get back in their souls....but! were blocked cuz that mentality had already set in. And African spirits are willful....meaning you have a choice to whether or not allow it to come in your "ka"....

yeah


Ditto, just reading wehat you posted... Good observation Koco... tfro
quote:
Originally posted by Fagunwa:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kocolicious:
fro @Sista K....don't get me startedlol but as I got I older I received somewhat of an epiphany...in that...maybe all that jerking back and forth...were the gods from Africa trying to get back in their souls....but! were blocked cuz that mentality had already set in. And African spirits are willful....meaning you have a choice to whether or not allow it to come in your "ka"....

yeah


Even in that, I don't think that they would really want to get back in. Where God is present, it is clear and where God is not, it is also clear....

All that jerking around, much like the falling out done by some of the ladies in this video, has nothing to do with God and everything to do with something else.

"Wisdom Is A Woman Who Sees!"
quote:
Originally posted by ShayaButHer:
quote:
Originally posted by Fagunwa:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kocolicious:
fro @Sista K....don't get me startedlol but as I got I older I received somewhat of an epiphany...in that...maybe all that jerking back and forth...were the gods from Africa trying to get back in their souls....but! were blocked cuz that mentality had already set in. And African spirits are willful....meaning you have a choice to whether or not allow it to come in your "ka"....

yeah


Even in that, I don't think that they would really want to get back in. Where God is present, it is clear and where God is not, it is also clear....

All that jerking around, much like the falling out done by some of the ladies in this video, has nothing to do with God and everything to do with something else.

"Wisdom Is A Woman Who Sees!"


Which is what in your opinion/worldview?
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

Which is what in your opinion/worldview?


Darlin, I'm not afraid to say it and neither were some of the individuals in your own video: if it ain't from God, where else could it be from...IF you believe in Good and Evil?

Just like some of the people in all of those churches jumping around and getting nutty, those "spirits" in those Women who "married" the Women came straight from the devil HimSelf...and the people in your video knew as much too...why do you think they laughed about it? Having seen this MySelf amongst our Own and amongst others, I couldn't argue that if I wanted to.

We aren't "allowed" to see instances of PosSession for no reason, Oshun. If you can see the devil, then you HAVE to believe there's a God...and that holds true for any culture and any "race" of people...no matter what God(s) or Goddesses or Spirits they choose to believe in.

...and if you don't believe, but can see the devil clearly, there really is no hope for having an "alternative" to dealing with "d evil" is there?

How one believes in evil, but not good I'm still trying to figure out.

"Wisdom Is A Woman Who Sees Clearly!"
quote:
Originally posted by ShayaButHer:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

Which is what in your opinion/worldview?


Darlin, I'm not afraid to say it and neither were some of the individuals in your own video: if it ain't from God, where else could it be from...IF you believe in Good and Evil?

Just like some of the people in all of those churches jumping around and getting nutty, those "spirits" in those Women who "married" the Women came straight from the devil HimSelf...and the people in your video knew as much too...why do you think they laughed about it? Having seen this MySelf amongst our Own and amongst others, I couldn't argue that if I wanted to.

We aren't "allowed" to see instances of PosSession for no reason, Oshun. If you can see the devil, then you HAVE to believe there's a God...and that holds true for any culture and any "race" of people...no matter what God(s) or Goddesses or Spirits they choose to believe in.

...and if you don't believe, but can see the devil clearly, there really is no hope for having an "alternative" to dealing with "d evil" is there?

How one believes in evil, but not good I'm still trying to figure out.

"Wisdom Is A Woman Who Sees Clearly!"


Thanks for being honest about your demonization of traditional practices. There goes all that 'respect other paths' right out the window I guess... I'm not surprised.
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Thanks for being honest about your demonization of traditional practices.


LOL...MY demonization???

Oshun, if those were Gods in those Women, would we see those same "Gods" trying to "go after" another one of the supposed Gods that was contained within another woman there? If those were Gods within the one woman in the church, would we see her rolling around on the floor like the exorcist just spat on her??? LOL...

It seems to me that God don't really need to inhabit a person's soul only to end up yelling and screaming at people, trying to chase them down and rolling around on someone's dirty floor.

LOL....but if that is your kind of God, by all means call it that.

"Wisdom Is A Woman Falling On The Floor (but I ain't rolling around screaming ya'll)!
quote:
Originally posted by ShayaButHer:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Thanks for being honest about your demonization of traditional practices.


LOL...MY demonization???


Yup... your demonization.

quote:
Oshun, if those were Gods in those Women, would we see those same "Gods" trying to "go after" another one of the supposed Gods that was contained within another woman there? If those were Gods within the one woman in the church, would we see her rolling around on the floor like the exorcist just spat on her??? LOL...

It seems to me that God don't really need to inhabit a person's soul only to end up yelling and screaming at people, trying to chase them down and rolling around on someone's dirty floor.

LOL....but if that is your kind of God, by all means call it that.

"Wisdom Is A Woman Falling On The Floor (but I ain't rolling around screaming ya'll)!


Well, my kind of 'GOD' didn't have to be spread around the world via colonization, slavery, cultural imperialism, and the demonization of other paths ... Now THAT's of the devil... But by all means... call it God if you wish...
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Yup... your demonization.


Ummm....no darlin...that is JUST demonization in going on. I didn't create demons.

quote:
Well, my kind of 'GOD' didn't have to be spread around the world via colonization, slavery, cultural imperialism, and the demonization of other paths ... Now THAT's of the devil... But by all means... call it God if you wish...


It sure is the devil because God didn't tell people to colonize, enslave, and the like. Moreover, God didn't have to be "spread around" either and forced onto people. If that were the case, we would not have free choice now.

Again, your argument is with the wrong construct. People who masked themselves as Christians are your target; not real and true Christians and certainly not God.

"Wisdom Is A Woman Who Can See The Truth!"
quote:
Originally posted by ShayaButHer:

those "spirits" in those Women who "married" the Women came straight from the devil HimSelf....


What makes them evil? Contorted faces...? What standards are you using to determine if someone is the devil? or from the devil?


quote:
Moreover, God didn't have to be "spread around" either and forced onto people. If that were the case, we would not have free choice now


Are you saying that Christianity was spread peacefully?



Curious...

How do you define Christianity?
quote:
Originally posted by ShayaButHer:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Yup... your demonization.


Ummm....no darlin...that is JUST demonization in going on. I didn't create demons.


I'm looking forward to your answer of K's question. You just categorized possession by the Obosum as demonic and of the devil... No need to backpeddle on you statements...

quote:
quote:
Well, my kind of 'GOD' didn't have to be spread around the world via colonization, slavery, cultural imperialism, and the demonization of other paths ... Now THAT's of the devil... But by all means... call it God if you wish...


It sure is the devil because God didn't tell people to colonize, enslave, and the like. Moreover, God didn't have to be "spread around" either and forced onto people. If that were the case, we would not have free choice now.


Also looking forward to your response to K.

quote:
Again, your argument is with the wrong construct. People who masked themselves as Christians are your target; not real and true Christians and certainly not God.

"Wisdom Is A Woman Who Can See The Truth!"


There is that oh so familiar historical cop-out.

So let me get this straight, fake X-ians went around the world and spread)via the sword) 'true X-ianity' to demonic Africans(and others)...ok... Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by ShayaButHer:
Moreover, God didn't have to be "spread around" either and forced onto people.


'God'? no.

How'bout religion(s)?

For there were religions that had been forced onto people and xianity is no exception.

Today, yeah, folks are 'chillin' now with the right to choose. No one can deny that.

But was that always the case?
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
What makes them evil? Contorted faces...? What standards are you using to determine if someone is the devil? or from the devil?


I was waiting on that question and was surprised it hadn't been asked before now. So do this before you read the rest of what I'm about to put here: take yourself outside of what you believe and try to look at the Christian "view," the traditional african practice/view, and any other "view" you subscribe to...as objects independent of YourSelf.

Once you've done that, add in the constructs of Good and Evil....again, not our "view" of them; but just the base premise of 'Good' and 'Evil.'

Then look at the construct of a 'spirit' as 'never ending' and the construct of life as 'finite.' Think about the concept of a 'God' or 'Goddess'...

Now make another picture in your mind where the God/Goddesses and yes, maybe even the spirits were unlimited in what they could do.

After seeing those pictures, just as they are, what ideals might one have about what a God/Goddess would and wouldn't do and why? Or what could or couldn't they do if the concept of a God/Goddess is limited in your picture.

Next, knowing that human life is finite, ask YourSelf what the human life could or could not do as they relate to dealing with the God, Goddess or spirits? Think in terms of how human behavior has proven itself, not in terms of how you believe human behavior should be. Think in terms of the global population, not just the African Centered Perspective.

Then go back and watch the video (or replay it in your mind if you remember the video vividly), and view it utilizing the pictures you just drew in your mind's eye. Look for the universal themes.

When I watched the video (and really when I encounter anything that deals with religion, spirituality and various tradition/practices) this is what I try to do. If you do this, you can begin to see another's point of view and UnderStand why they believe what they do. You may not necessarily agree with it, but at least you can try to see what they are seeing.

In addition, utilizing this method allows you to SEE things as objectively as possible. We had to use this "picture" method way back when in debate and surprisingly enough, throughout the years I've discovered that many others throughout my lifetime have utilized this same method in across various subject matter/fields, etc. It helps you to see the picture and focus on the "universal" truths.

Just from watching the first half hour of the video, I saw this:

People, spirits classified - meaning they didn't hold one behavior type, religion, questions, answers, fear, tradition, interjection, volunteerism - meaning that most all parties volunteered their bodies in one way or another, acceptance, invasion, and not so surprisingly: denial in more than one form.

Here's the complete breakdown for what I saw:

People:
1) The traditional community, 2) the foreigners, 3) the pastor, 4) the film crew, 5) the interviewer, 6) the narrator, 7) all other indirect persons contributing.

Spirits Classified:
Classification 1: neutral/needy – the spirit of the hungry snake in one Woman
Classification 2: warring – the spirit who took over the girl in the crowd who also had to be "held back" from another ˜spirit' or spirits by the Women in the procession charged with watching over the ˜inhabited' bodies.
Classification 3: joining – the dancing spirits
Classification 4: violent – spirit(s) contained within the girl in the church who were suspected of being ˜pushed out' but who ultimately still resided within her being
Classification 5: aggressive – spirit took over the girl in the crowd who was unsuspecting of an intended ˜possession' of her being

Religion: Traditional/Christian

Tradition: Community, Self, the Spirits

Christian: the pastor, the followers, the girl who was possessed

Volunteerism:
1) Ladies offered their bodies for "marriage" with the spirit HusBands, 2) Chief Priest explained the tradition to "outsiders," 3) possessed individuals within the church gave permission to the pastor to perform exorcisms upon them to rid themselves of the demon(s), 4) pastor speaking on the traditional community and the possessions, 5) girl's family speaking on her possession by the "snake" spirit, 6) possessed girl in the church speaking about her possession and being ˜freed' of that possession

Acceptance:
1) Community seemed to be curious about the Husband spirits if not accept them completely, 2) the Chief Priest seemed to accept and find humorous the "sexual act" that the "spirit God" were trying to enact, 3) helpers of the pastor seemed to accept that exorcising the possessed individuals was the true and just action to take to release those individuals from what they classified as a ˜demon'

Invasion:
1) One girl in the crowd who was only there to watch the procession of the 'Gods' with their wives, ended up being 'possessed' herself, 2) The Woman/girl who'd been possessed as the snake seemed to have been invaded as her relatives stated they had never seen her "like this;" it would lend credence to the ideal that maybe she was not a volunteer and maybe this experience was not something that she considered "normal" on a day to day basis, 3) The young girl in the church who had been "possessed" seemed to have been invaded, not only the first time, but again at another instance in which she kept screaming on the ground, 4) I didn't see one time when the filming crew asked permission to be filming the various possessions, 5)nor did I see this permission getting from the pastor, 6)or the chief priest who was explaining what was going on with the Women and their GodHusbands.

Fear:
1) the opening of the video seemed to want to illicit a fearful response from its watchers, 2) some of the people in the dance crowd looked fearful regarding the "spirit" possession, 3) the girl possessed by the snake spirit, her family seemed concerned about the happening, 4) watching the possessed people in the church one could see their fear or the "spirit's fear as the pastor tried exorcising it away, 5) the girl who was exorcised clearly had a fear of what was to come as she had become possessed again, 6) the Chief Priest seemed to have a fear of getting serious about the issue of the Women's possession, openly smiling and laughing as he talked about them...fear or avoidance regarding what they are truly, 7) even the pastor seemed to have a fear of what the traditional "spirits" represent in a world of as well

Happiness, Joy:
1) the dancers, 2) some of the spirits invading , 3) the chief priestess, 4) the invading snake spirit, when given an egg, 5) the girl in the church when it was thought that her "demon(s)" was/were gone

Denial:
Denial 1 – The ˜Wives' married to the ˜Gods' and the community never seemed to stop and consider that the ˜spirits' going into them were not ˜Gods' as evidenced by the way some of the ˜spirits' behaved when in possession of the Women's bodies
Denial 2 – The Chief Priest laughed all during his explanation of what the ˜Gods' were doing with their wives and attributed their possession of the Women as a sexual act playing itself out. He seemed to think the whole procession was a joke.
Denial 3 – The girl in the church who thought the ˜demon' had come out of her assumed and presented that she was healed. However, a little later, we can see that a ˜spirit' regained possession of her body.
Denial 4 – The pastor of the church seemed to think he could heal all of the ˜possessed' people in the church.

Questions:
Who are the spirits? Why do the people believe in them? Why do the Christians view them as demons and why does the traditional culture view them as harmonious? How do the spirits benefit the traditional culture, if there is a benefit? Where did the free will and the spirit of the inhabited go while the HusBand spirit had possession? If the spirits were one, why don't the Women remember what took place? Are the spirits from a God construct? Why or why not? Are the spirits from an Evil construct? Why or why not? Can you compare/contrast the nature of each of the spirits with that of their host? What about with that of a God or Goddess construct? Why did the people in the church volunteer to have what they considered "demons" to be cast out of them if they did not believe that the "spirit or spirits" could be classified as "evil?" If the spirits in the procession were truly ˜Gods' then why did some of them act out as they did? Why would the spirits need to possess the bodies of a finite human it they were truly "Gods?"


Just based off of those observations and plugging it into place within the pictures you created earlier with your mind's eye, ask yourself the "demon" or "evil" questions again....and take some time on that before you blurt out an answer because looking at the big picture, you have got a lot of plugging in to do...so it will take some time to come to a justifiable conclusion.

quote:
Are you saying that Christianity was spread peacefully?
Curious...

How do you define Christianity?


No, I did not say that at all. I said very clearly that "God didn't have to be spread around...and forced onto people."

When people were directed to "share the good news," that didn't mean that they were to force that upon anybody. If Men did that, that isn't God's fault. MoreOver, no matter what it seems someone is trying to force upon you on the outside, that doesn't mean that you will incorporate it within your inside if you truly believe what you claim to believe.

Finally, I don't define Christianity. The definition as it stands is "one who is a follower of Christ." SomeOne can claim to follow Christ, but their actions may say the complete opposite. A true follower of Christ does not enslave people or force anything upon their fellow man because God, as the Creator, meets each individual anyway...God doesn't need us to force "Christianity" upon anybody. Does God desire us to be like minded and unified in thought and deed? I ask you: does ANY parent want their kids to get along and respect each other?

"Wisdom Is A Woman Looking at the Bigger Picture!"
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by ShayaButHer:
Moreover, God didn't have to be "spread around" either and forced onto people.


'God'? no.

How'bout religion(s)?

For there were religions that had been forced onto people and xianity is no exception.

Today, yeah, folks are 'chillin' now with the right to choose. No one can deny that.

But was that always the case?


Raptor,

I would agree with that. What I think some people are missing here is my argument that just because some sought to take the action of "forcing upon another" doesn't make God responsible for that...nor does it render what God set down irrelevant either.

To make sense of it, I just apply the same concept to other things in life: a cop may be being stupid and excessive in behavior regarding my speeding on the highway, but just because he's acting salty does not absolve me from speeding, if speeding is in fact against the law. My complaint would be with the cop; not the law, as the law was generally set in place to prevent my own death as well as the death of others.

Does that clarify the argument better?

I realize that "religion" is touchy for some and in no way as "trivial" as a speeding ticket can be...but the concept is the same: the law was created for my protection and for the protection of others; not for our oppression. If others oppress me in the process of trying to follow the law, my complaint is with the one trying to do the oppressing and really, myself if I allow the oppressing to take place. I know you can't always do something about it; especially when considering some of the past atrocities...however even then, the complaint is still with the oppressor and not the law....unless the law was written to be oppressive. If that is the case, then I seek to change the law.

I don't think loving God and loving people is oppressive or really even hard....for any culture or any race. MoreOver, I don't think the concept of supporting a God who might actually know more than myself is difficult either if my experience with that God was not a harmful one...notice I said with that God; not with the people who get radical about that God. These are concepts that should be simple. Those concepts only become hard when people add their own brand of rules and regulations and/or agendas to the mix.

"Wisdom Is A Free Woman!"
fro If one had ALL the answers regarding GOD...there would be no confusion. History shows not only confusion....but war, death, slavery all in the name of the LORD/Allah/whomeverGOD. Surely...someone knows God. And even today....the same war, death, slavery....it's just NOT here...as it was. But now as in then...the question....who truly knows god-to the TOTAL satisfaction of all who don't? fro
quote:
Originally posted by ShayaButHer:
...that just because some sought to take the action of "forcing upon another" doesn't make God responsible for that...nor does it render what God set down irrelevant either.


So help me, you'll never get a debate from me talking about what 'god' is or is not about, to or for anyone. For a host of reasons, (I feel no need to get into at this time), I find it moot.

There are those who have 'god' and no religion; there are those who have religion and no 'god', so I can't speak as though it's by default that the two are connected.

However, religion/belief system doctrine and the history corresponding with and to the such is something else.

quote:
To make sense of it, I just apply the same concept to other things in life: a cop may be being stupid and excessive in behavior regarding my speeding on the highway, but just because he's acting salty does not absolve me from speeding, if speeding is in fact against the law. My complaint would be with the cop; not the law, as the law was generally set in place to prevent my own death as well as the death of others.


I don't know if that's a good analogy, for laws were made by men like the ones made for driving on the road. They can also be changed by men ('god' inspired or not). If you're cool with that, then would the same hold true for the bible (whichever version you regard)?

quote:
I realize that "religion" is touchy for some and in no way as "trivial" as a speeding ticket can be...but the concept is the same
It's not touchy for me to talk about religion (for it's part of what this forum is about) or any kind of belief system so, for me at least, -excuse the 'modesty' and get into as you know how.

Furthermore, if you believe that the oppressors of your ancestors where doing them a 'favor' and or 'protecting' them...if you believe that, then please, tell me how.

As I said before, your "chillin now", with the luxury to choose. Historically, as an afrikan diasporan of enslaved afrikan ancestors, I'm asking you...Was this always the case?

quote:
the law was created for my protection and for the protection of others; not for our oppression
. This is the same kind of rational thru religion that oppressors used to justify there conquest. We can not discount spiritual enslavement.

quote:
If others oppress me in the process of trying to follow the law, my complaint is with the one trying to do the oppressing and really, myself if I allow the oppressing to take place.
You are speaking with the advantage of not being in your ancestors shoes when enslaved and 'cut off' from their original belief systems.

quote:
I know you can't always do something about it; especially when considering some of the past atrocities...
Perhaps you can start by recognizing, historically, how you (today) became a xian.

I don't think it's any 'tougher' than you explaining how you got your nose, or those eyes, that smile etc. For all these traits have an origin.

Go up river, until you get to where it started, then work your way back downstream.


quote:
...however even then, the complaint is still with the oppressor and not the law....unless the law was written to be oppressive.
Revelation? 19

quote:
If that is the case, then I seek to change the law.
Hey, one more bible won't hurt. The "ShayButHer Version" is a welcomed edition to all past biblical remixes.
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor:

I don't know if that's a good analogy, for laws were made by men like the ones made for driving on the road. They can also be changed by men ('god' inspired or not). If you're cool with that, then would the same hold true for the bible (whichever version you regard)?


Honestly, I think that God did seek to enhance the law when the New Testament was written. I say this because when you look at the Old Testament, specifically in Lamentations and Deuteronomy, you see how strenuous the "Old Law" was for MAN to live up to. When I studied it, I agreed with the school of thought that "no one" would have been able to live up to the "requirements" that God had of Man during that time.

I joked in a letter to my mother some months ago, that I knew where the phrase, "Thank You, Jesus" originated from. This in referring to seriousness of the Old Law and the "freedom" from actually having to live that out when Jesus was "given" as easier alternative to living under God's terms.

With the onset of the New Testament, which in my opinion is really where people should start when trying to have a RelationShip with God, we see where God considered the fact that while He was not happy with Man, man would never be able to fulfill the requirements God had given that Man is human. We see that God also considered the fact that Man would most likely hate God as Man realized that nothing he could ever do could live up to the expectations that God had. We can also see that God probably considered, if God is a fair God, that man would need a better alternative to the Old Law, if Man and God were to have the kind of RelationShip that God originally had in mind with Man, living peacefully and respectfully.

If you are asking me if God changes or can change his mind/decrees, I would submit that yes, God does and can. Especially when you consider the individuals within the very Bible that swayed Gods heart on several matters.

quote:
Furthermore, if you believe that the oppressors of your ancestors where doing them a 'favor' and or 'protecting' them...if you believe that, then please, tell me how.

As I said before, your "chillin now", with the luxury to choose. Historically, as an afrikan diasporan of enslaved afrikan ancestors, I'm asking you...Was this always the case?


Non...I never said that the oppressors of my ancestors where doing us a favor and/or protecting us. I said that GOD, who has nothing to do with any oppressors, set down certain laws for US; laws that were meant to bring us closer to Him and ensure that we have good living.

Again, if PEOPLE sought to reinterpret those laws or restructure those laws, our argument is with the manipulators, not God or Jesus. We had the luxury to choose even back then and the ability to "not allow" ourselves to "be slaves of men," something God specifically commanded us to be aware of.

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This is the same kind of rational thru religion that oppressors used to justify there conquest. We can not discount spiritual enslavement.


While the law was created for my protection and for the protection of others; not for our oppression, again it was not GOD who told people to rational their oppression of us. Whatever the reason and constructs that those people used, God did not tell them to do that and really, we need to be grateful for our ability to distinguish that reality.

I don't know how many times I have to point out that just because MAN takes upon certain actions that does not mean that God approved of it and that we should have a complaint with God because we didn't seek to circumvent those actions.

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You are speaking with the advantage of not being in your ancestors shoes when enslaved and 'cut off' from their original belief systems.


No, I do not agree with that. Even looking at today's laws and belief systems, I have a choice in what I am going to do. For instance, if I don't agree with the abortion laws of one state or the other, I don't have to live in that state. If, as a whole, I don't like the political setup of this country, I can always leave and go to live in a new one. If I think something is coming to "cut me off," isn't it my job to do anything and everything within my own ability to prevent as much?

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Perhaps you can start by recognizing, historically, how you (today) became a xian.


Yes, I've considered this and realize that I've been on my own personal journey...a journey that really few people take because it's easier to give up when one doesn't have all of the answers. I have to say, however, that through all of my religious "crappy" experiences, when I wanted to "give up," God always found a way to reach me...there was always something that either confirmed and validated or changed the experiences I was going through. What I'm saying, is that there was always "a way out" of the confusion, so to speak.

You can read the book about the whole experience when I am done with it....and I'm serious about that: I have been writing one.

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Hey, one more bible won't hurt. The "ShayButHer Version" is a welcomed edition to all past biblical remixes.


LOL...Ummm...I will just say what some of the angels said, "Don't do it!" I don't add to or take away from what was written, but I do seek to UnderStand at all times. Speaking of, I have to run right now to my class, but I will be back to finish my thoughts about our contributions to the Bible and the like. Given that WE are the first people, it is not hard to see how WE helped birth it.

"Wisdom Is A Woman Who Studies!"
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Honestly, I think that God did seek to enhance the law when the New Testament was written.


...Are you telling me that 'god' didn't get it right the first time that 'god' needed a 'do over'?

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you see how strenuous the "Old Law" was for MAN to live up to.
This is a good apology if I ever read one. Seriously.

However....

Does this mean 'god' made an error in judgement when 'inspiring' the writers of the "Old Law"?

'God' had/has a bad choice of character as to whom can write 'god's' laws, since there was a need to make a biblio-remix.

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specifically in Lamentations and Deuteronomy
What about the OL in general? There are 'specifics' in the NL that could be held up to the same kind of scrutiny.

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This in referring to seriousness of the Old Law and the "freedom" from actually having to live that out when Jesus was "given" as easier alternative to living under God's terms
...But did jesus come not to change the law, but to fullfill it? That doesn't read like jesus via 'god' came to make it easier for anybody. I have a feeling you'll reason that away as well. Prove me right.

...What I see, is man, through the centuries changing or re-writing the book to fit their political needs.

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Again, if PEOPLE sought to reinterpret those laws or restructure those laws, our argument is with the manipulators, not God or Jesus.
Or perhaps they were 'god' inspired. Far be it from me to tell them they weren't. It's not in my place to say whether they were or not. Is it in yours?

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Especially when you consider the individuals within the very Bible that swayed Gods heart on several matters.
Especially speaking, I find all religions and their literatures/doctrines to have giga tons of allegorical myths, fiction, fictional characters, folklore, and supposition. However, as I've said before(maybe not on this board), if the message is true, the story need not be true.

...Tough discussing religion without interjecting 'god', huh? It's as if 'god' is used as the coating on a tablet, making it easier to swallow.
Originally posted by ShayabutHer
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All that jerking around, much like the falling out done by some of the ladies in this video, has nothing to do with God and everything to do with something else.

"



fro However, Sista Shaya...those who are DOING all that jerking around...will probably DISAGREE with you and say they know GOD as much as you do. And the evidence...is speaking in tongue and being filled with the "holy spirit." It's that same old saying which states "you don't know God, but I do." That's why I always say God is a personal thang. You can't hear what "God" is saying to another person...and you can't mimimize it either....just cuz you don't agree with the "personal" entertainment. In history, ancient and modern cultures are known to be entertaining when it comes to God i.e. dancing in a circle beating their perspective drums....talking to God. As seen in Amerindians, Africans, Asians, etc. So it's to each his own....in my view anyway. You can't argue with someone's personal salvation....it's impossible! And it's really truly NOT the thing to do...cause when folks do that...that pivioting question emerge: Who are you? God? fro

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