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quote:
You assume much... and understimate much... the global market is not chaotic brother... it has more uniformity than you give it credit... but I digress significantly...

I do not think that gangsters who suddenly find themselves rejected by the larger market will replicate that market successfully... creating international market and distribution from their current mindset...



Khalliqa, I think you are exaggerating the difficulty of distribution. I also think it is you who underestimate the sophistication of street operations. Brothers in the hood are already moving product. There is no shortage of crack available in the street, and it isn't corporate sales which push this illegal product.

If a realist strategy is to be developed it should be created realistically, not idealistically.

If one agency is forced to extract itself due to public pressure, it will create an opportunity for others,... period. The avenues and mechanisms are already in place. There are pipelines ready for such a popular product. We have the example of the drug industry, the porn industry, the bootleg CD and DVD industry, etc... What you are suggesting as an impossibity is not only possible, it is the reality on the street layer of society.

Further, it is too late to talk about the task of preventing Street organizations from supplying forms of Hip Hop, since even if the corporate labels cave in, it could not and would not halt individual multimillionares in the rap world from turning to the streets to build the networks that would become inaccessible due to corporations caving to public pressure.

If there was a strong and thirsty market for Don Imus, someone would find a way to stick a mike in front of his face and broadcast his message right now...

This brings us to MBM's point which is that not only do we destroy the Channels which provide the image, but by doing so we alter the appetite of the consumer. I beg to differ, however I will address this in my response to Him...


Whirling Moat
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
quote:
You assume much... and understimate much... the global market is not chaotic brother... it has more uniformity than you give it credit... but I digress significantly...

I do not think that gangsters who suddenly find themselves rejected by the larger market will replicate that market successfully... creating international market and distribution from their current mindset...



Khalliqa, I think you are exaggerating the difficulty of distribution. I also think it is you who underestimate the sophistication of street operations. Brothers in the hood are already moving product. There is no shortage of crack available in the street, and it isn't corporate sales which push this illegal product.


With due respect brother...

Street hustlers do not control international crack sales...

How much of rap artist income is procured from international markets? Why is Jay Z doing tours in Asia? Even the movie industry gets a huge bulk of their profits from overseas....

our celebrities are not cultivated solely from the pocketbooks of Americans...

and our hood artists are not immune from the successes of the globally marketed thug life either...




Nzingha...
Peace....

quote:
I respectfully disagree wholeheartedly. There have always been gangstas. It was the artificial marketing efforts of white record companies that turned that lifestyle into the glamorous, aspirational image that thugging has now. If those same billions had been invested behind . . . say . . . a Chuck D, nationalist, pro-black, liberation focused aspirational image - do you still think Snoop Dogg would have any credibility in the hood? I don't.


Unfortunately I think we have seen this already. Chuck D., KRS1, Queen Latifah, Tribe Called Quest, etc had their time the message and the Genre simply played out. Why? Because while they were singing "Fight the power" and "Self Destruction" the conditions in reality, right in the hood, did not change. Yes more people were wearing beads and braids, like X-clan suggested, however, they were murdering people while sporting anhks, and africa emblems.

We are talking about the late eighties and early nineties...People were still dying en masse. People were still selling drugs, women were still flocking to benzes, Dudes were still waving "knots" of money to capture the attention of the have nots...

When you are hungry you can only hold a positive outlook for so long before anger sets in...Beads, Books, and bow ties, put nothing on the table, and this is eventually what led to the turning of the tide toward evolved artist like Tupac, who stopped romanticizing the struggle, and spoke to the reality of day to day living.

People got tired of listening to people kick knowledge on wax while they were suffering in reality...

quote:
To be clear, the external influence does a couple of things. First - it glorifies a lifestyle. In this instance, record execs chose 'thug life' to be what it is today. TO be sure - Tupac or anyone else from within hip hop did not. Second, the money and women and bling that were showered on those hand-picked artists gave that plastic image the street cred that it needed. This is all an artificial business exercise as opposed to, as I've said, a natural/real evolution of black culture.


I see your point, however, I think the causality piece in your argument is off. The marketing of corporations cannot act as legitimate force without a pre-existing cess pool there. In others words corporations can amplify conditions, however they cannot create them.

Tupac was so successful because he was pushed yes, however, his message was ripe, the people wanted his words...When the public demands a particular variety you cannot just force feed them something else...

MBM, women do in fact gravitate to men with money and material possesions..They do this within the world of Hip Hop and everywhere else. Corporations didn't just craft this..This is reality...What we have to stomach is the fact that these images do in fact represent areas of black culture. They simply don't represent the entirety of black culture, however, I do not think that anyone gets that impression.

We may be embarassed that Rappers and white collar surbanites are allowed to benefit from our misery, however, hiding the problem isn't much better...


quote:
So - if all of a sudden those within that industry start to articulate that the game is fake - AND the financial incentives start to move to something else (another style of music) then the gangsta loses its appeal, for sure.


Once again, you will fail in business everytime if you try to force a product on a population which isn't hungry for your product...You can't just start pushing artists like Chuck D and expect the record sales to follow because of powerful marketing..If the people don't want it, if they aren't "feeling" it, it won't sell...The appetite has to be made ready from the ground up...There is a good reason for why rappers like Chuck D and KRS one saw so much success, it is because there was a general movement in the black community toward activism at the time.

The time came and then faded...



quote:
The analogy doesn't quite work IMO. What I'm saying wouldn't be like Big Brother outlawing rap. I agree that would stimulate things underground. What I'm saying is revealing to our community why and how hip hop evolved as it did; telling folks that we have been pawns (i.e. used) in white folks' plan to simply make as much money off of us and our culture as possible. We believe that this stuff is "real" because it comes from the mouths of our youth, but if all of African America realized that we were merely parroting white stereotypes of us, that our young artists have been simply following the money trail that has lead them to create music that clowns themselves and their people - that it's not "keepin' it real" - then I think our love affair with thug life would expire.


Brother MBM, I come from both worlds. I have seen both sides of our community up close, and I can tell you with authority that what these rappers describe is real..It is...It was real before Easy E, it was real before Ice T. It may not be as pervasive, or romantic as the portrayals would have us belive, but it is a very real aspect of living black in America...

I agree that we should not allow others to benefit from our madness, and I even agree with shutting it down, I just think the approach should be realistic.

Don't kill the supply chain, compete with it...Not by simply offering different forms of rap, but by demonstrating ways for people to uplift themselves. This can be acheived within a rap song..Teach the people how to get out their conditions without turning to crime and you will have a top selling artist...



Whirling Moat
Peace...



quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
quote:
You assume much... and understimate much... the global market is not chaotic brother... it has more uniformity than you give it credit... but I digress significantly...

I do not think that gangsters who suddenly find themselves rejected by the larger market will replicate that market successfully... creating international market and distribution from their current mindset...



Khalliqa, I think you are exaggerating the difficulty of distribution. I also think it is you who underestimate the sophistication of street operations. Brothers in the hood are already moving product. There is no shortage of crack available in the street, and it isn't corporate sales which push this illegal product.


With due respect brother...

Street hustlers do not control international crack sales...

How much of rap artist income is procured from international markets? Why is Jay Z doing tours in Asia? Even the movie industry gets a huge bulk of their profits from overseas....

our celebrities are not cultivated solely from the pocketbooks of Americans...

and our hood artists are not immune from the successes of the globally marketed thug life either...




Nzingha...



We aren't talking about international sales..The idea is figuring our a way to change a condition right here in America. Could activism aimed at corporations result in the end of Gangster Rap? I say No....It would probably curb the immediate distribution and then explode later underground...

Would it make it to Latvia, or Bangladesh? I don't know.But it would sure be right here...

Now go throw a spear or something..



Whirling Moat
First of all, I like to say that black people have become white people. I think we have now collectively become part of a system that our ancestors hated not so long ago. All the system had to do was to let us have a piece of the exploitation pie and we would no longer fight against the system.

Slavery could have lasted much longer had whites allowed the forces aligned against it to profit from it, namely black folks. If blacks had been allowed to own slaves of any race and profit from it we would not have had a nearly ubiquitous opposition to the system.

Most exploitive systems now understand that you have to build a little flexibility into the system so that it can bend and not break. When you completely oppress and isolate a group of people, you back them into a corner and create the type of unity that ultimately threatens the system. By allowing a percentage to prosper relative to the others, from the system, you then can divide and conquer keeping the system safe.

We have become what we (our ancestors) hated. This whole western capitalistic system corrupts motives as everything is filtered through the prism of profits. Exploitation is profitable. What allows some black artist to create riches via misogynistic and degrading lyrics is the profit that fuels it. It's the free market baby and now that we are free to partake in the wealth that can be gained from exploitation, we, just like white folks, are scrambling to get those dollars.

I am so frustrated with my people I don't know what to do!!! Its like in the movie "Amistad". There was this scene when the real black folks from the ship were just captured and being marched to detention. One of the REAL black people called out to one of the black Americans they had seen. "Brother....brother"....to no avail. Then one of the other REAL black people said...."that is not your brother....that is the white man". That is what we have become in America....the white man.
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace...


We aren't talking about international sales..The idea is figuring our a way to change a condition right here in America. Could activism aimed at corporations result in the end of Gangster Rap? I say No....It would probably curb the immediate distribution and then explode later underground...

Would it make it to Latvia, or Bangladesh? I don't know.But it would sure be right here...


Brother....


My point was that the extravagant lifestyles afforded by rappers are culled from more than the profits made nationally... they get a lot of their money from international sales... therefore... if corporate America cuts off their support ... an attempt to recoup their former lifestyles based off of domestic sales only will not work...



quote:
Now go throw a spear or something..



Whirling Moat


Sure...


*Catch*



~Nzingha~

Assalaamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa barakatu
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Chuck D., KRS1, Queen Latifah, Tribe Called Quest, etc had their time the message and the Genre simply played out. Why?


Because white record execs realized that black folks rapping about black liberation and power did not sell in white suburbia. It's that simple.

quote:
Because while they were singing "Fight the power" and "Self Destruction" the conditions in reality, right in the hood, did not change.


Yeah - and by inference - you argue that the success of gangsta is because it has been so effective at creating positive change in our community? nono

Why is Chuck D passé because he didn't change the world, but .50 is still hot even though he contributes to the miasma? Confused

quote:
When you are hungry you can only hold a positive outlook for so long before anger sets in


Brotha - hard times didn't start in our community in 1990. 16

quote:
People got tired of listening to people kick knowledge on wax while they were suffering in reality...


So celebrating the suffering is the solution? Confused I refuse to believe that you think that activism is out of fashion. 15

quote:
The marketing of corporations cannot act as legitimate force without a pre-existing cess pool there.


Again, by record companies putting ALL of their money behind this one aspect of the Hip Hop culture, it grossly warped the evolution of that music.

Why did original jazz music die out? It's one of the most pure and creative forms of music and it is, for the most part, dead. It's not because people are incapable of liking it - it's because the marketing of the genre dried up.

I guarantee you if the record industry put the billions of dollars that it invested in marketing and selling gangsta behind Chuck D and the artists that you said were dead above - they'd be where the current Hip Hop favorites are.

quote:
Once again, you will fail in business everytime if you try to force a product on a population which isn't hungry for your product...You can't just start pushing artists like Chuck D and expect the record sales to follow because of powerful marketing..If the people don't want it, if they aren't "feeling" it, it won't sell.


My point exactly. Rap's primary consumers - who are white teens - weren't feeling the pro-black messages of the 80's rappers. When NWA comes along and creates music that reinforces white folks' stereotypes of us, then record companies saw that and put ALL of their money behind it. Putting the money behind just this aspect of our culture caused it to be disproportionately communicated - delivering the message that that's all that was there when there was a wide variety of rap music.

You need to understand that the evolution of gangsta has little to do with black culture or black conditions or black tastes and everything to do with satisfying white consumers' desires to consume stereotypical (cartoonish) characterizations of black people.
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One thing I hope we're all asking ourselves is this: Why was the Imus comment the last straw for so many of us? After all of the mean, hateful and degrading words that have been spewed in various public forums over the decades, why did this comment have the power to crystallize the problem? I believe it has a lot to do with context. The denigration of women, especially in a public forum, is unacceptable, period. But gangsta rappers (the real ones, not the wannabes) actually live the life they describe. As bad as it is, their feelings toward women are a result of their environment and upbringing, and their own lack of self-respect and self-discipline. These are reasons, not excuses. Unless I missed something, Don Imus didn't grow up in the 'hood, nor does he spend much time hanging out there now. As much as we deplore the words and images of gangsta rap music and videos, we know they don't just come out of thin air. So exactly what prompted Don Imus and his producer (let's not forget about him)? Another thing that makes this issue different is that Imus' comment was not a general one, but instead was aimed directly at the members of the Rutgers women's basketball team. People weren't allowed to feel comfortable believing the "hos" to which Imus referred were half-naked hoochies in explicit videos. We had just witnessed their gritty and improbable march to the national title game, and during the Imus controversy, all of America saw just how beautiful, educated, intelligent, articulate and classy these women really are. Now those who support Imus and think his firing was unfair are trying to exact a measure of misguided revenge by demanding that record companies drop the gangsta rappers from their rosters. These people are just looking for some sort of victory in this big mess. The problem is they tend to complain from their couches, the neighborhood bar stool, or call-in radio shows and Internet forums and chat rooms. If they truly want change, let them picket and protest and boycott, like so many others have done. In other words, they need to get off their behinds and actually put forth some effort!
Our Community Is Suffering

I am disgusted and even hurt by Don Imus' comments, but I am also grateful because his comment has revealed to the world just how devalued Black women are in the eyes of America's general public. Apparently, this is the impression that Don Imus has of African American women: In order to be a hoar, an African American woman doesn't necessarily have to be sexually promiscous. Being an African American woman automatically qualifes her for hoar status. What's more, in the Black community, it is acceptable, cool, and even cute to refer to women as hoes. If you call a Black woman a "hoe," then you are paying her a compliment and expressing endearment. That's just how lowly our community has become. Calling a Black woman a "hoe" is a way of expressing endearment. Can you believe that? And this is the general perception that America has of Black woman - that we like or prefer being called hoes. PATHETIC. What's even more pathetic is not only are Black women being disrespected by men within their community, now we're being disrespected by men outside of our community. Can't say I didn't see this coming. Roll Eyes

Why do we make excuses for this disgraceful behavior? Why do we blame everyone else except the person who is responsible and should be held accoutable for thinking, saying, and rapping negative thoughts about a group of people? I don't care WHO the person is or WHAT color they are. Both White men AND Black men should be held accountable for disrespecting women. Period. I don't care how much a rapper is being paid to perform or who finances his career. All of these rappers have mothers. They should be held accoutable rather than coddled. They have grandmothers, aunts, and wives who are raising their children, mostly on their own, and who care very much about them. So why don't these chumps and sell-outs think about them before they dogg women out to make a fast and fleeting buck?
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Sorry for being a 'johnny-come-laely' to this discussion.

I have rather incidental comment on other threads.

I reading MBM's post several things occur to me.

Sometimes we tend to expand a subject, or incident, to such size we can't get 'solution' around it.

The music industry is a for-profit endeavor.

Whatever its contents, it is intend to be a consumer product.

Someone has to be willing to pay for it, for its content.

the consumer must purchase the insult...if there is one perceived by the purchaser.

The offense to a greater 'audience' must be address in another manner.

Broadcasters operate at the pleasure and discretion of the public by way of the oversight of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC).

Broadcasters have been, until the advent of The Internet, the primary purveyors, and advertisers of the produce of The Music Industry.

Displeasure can be addressed through the FCC.

Accountability and therefore subsequent behavior can be controlled through the FCC.

The Internet is outside of regulation.

Should Imus 'land' in that arena via satellite radio, we will find out what he is really made of.

'Imus Is Not the Problem'

Is this another way of saying, 'The problem is us, wholly or in part?'

Clearly, there is a problem.

And it has many faces.

I hestitate to give a neme, but...

we are a part of the problem.

PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:

'Imus Is Not the Problem'

Is this another way of saying, 'The problem is us, wholly or in part?'


In part. We are complicit in the issue to be sure, but I don't blame prostitutes for that issue. I don't blame the Mexicans for the "illegal immigration" issue. I don't blame those working in sweatshops around the world for the outsourcing problem.

Those issues are all driven by the very same force - which drives the gangsta rap phenomenon as well: the greed and exploitation of the American "profitocracy".
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Why was the Imus comment the last straw for so many of us?

With the long history of disrespect Black people have suffered at the hands of White people... How exactly do you form that question? What part of you just doesn't know or understand that response or reaction from "so many of us"...?


Believe me, I fully understand the response. Read the next two sentences in my post: "After all of the mean, hateful and degrading words that have been spewed in various public forums over the decades, why did this comment have the power to crystallize the problem? I believe it has a lot to do with context." I simply find it interesting that Imus' comment, however vulgar and hateful, became the flashpoint above all of the other vulgar and hateful things that have been said about Black women throughout the "long history of disrespect Black people have suffered at the hands of White People", a fact of which I am also painfully aware. My post, in its entirety, explains exactly how I could form the question.
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
People aren't going to all of a sudden become conscious just because gangsta rap is banned or censored.


How do you know that? There's no telling what (some) people might do. sck

What I mean is, if you take something away from somebody, they usually tend to fill (that time, space, whatever) with something else. Who's to say that if a mind is filled with something other than the abomination that is gangster rap, that that mind wouldn't be filled with consciousness?
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
People aren't going to all of a sudden become conscious just because gangsta rap is banned or censored.


HeruStar;
I am of two minds about this. I grew up with hip-hop and rap. I do not wish to see the artform banned, but I do believe the imagery of oversexed mindless jiggling black women and thugged out bling teefed drug dealing black males which has become attached to it needs to be reformed.

Also, when the discussion instantly turns from Imus's statements to the dysfuctionality of blacks as exemplified by hip-hop, it irks me because it allows the larger culture to escape the obligation to look at the racism and sexism which it perpetuates. Like Tim Russert on Meet The Press today actually tried to defend Imus by saying "but look at rap music". Instead of explaining why his oh so venerated and chunky butt had been on Imus racist/sexist show too many times to count.

See what I mean? HipHop and rap has become incredibly sexist, but does that absolves the larger society of the responsibility to NOT degrade the image of black womanhood?
In part. We are complicit in the issue to be sure, but I don't blame prostitutes for that issue. I don't blame the Mexicans for the "illegal immigration" issue. I don't blame those working in sweatshops around the world for the outsourcing problem.---MBM

That does get to the specifics of it.

Yet prostitutes 'do what they do'.

Mexicans in the country 'did what they did'.

Those working in those overseas workers 'do that the work'.


Those issues are all driven by the very same force - which drives the gangsta rap phenomenon as well: the greed and exploitation of the American "profitocracy".---MBM

I agree.

And 'we' pursue it...with greed and with exploitation.

It is indeed a complex mix.

Yet, somehow 'The System' knew when 'too much' was 'too much'.

It was a societal reflex.

Most often, we know we are doing wrong when we do wrong.

When we blatantly do wrong, we flinch.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
What I mean is, if you take something away from somebody, they usually tend to fill (that time, space, whatever) with something else. Who's to say that if a mind is filled with something other than the abomination that is gangster rap, that that mind wouldn't be filled with consciousness?


EbonyRose,

We can't be sure that the void won't be filled with something WORSE. Censoring or banning rap is not going to change urban lifestlye, or the urban state of mind.

We talk about the upliftment of blacks, and sometimes it's a double-edged sword. Especially when Upliftment = Profit/prosperity. Can blacks AFFORD the banning or censorship of hip-hop? I think we should demand a bigger piece of the revenue that we create through hip-hop, so that we can afford to flood the market with political/social righteousness. Because that's what all of this is about right... being righteous?

--------------------------------------

quote:
but I do believe the imagery of oversexed mindless jiggling black women and thugged out bling teefed drug dealing black males which has become attached to it needs to be reformed.


NegroSpiritual,

These images have been addressed and are still being addressed. There has been at least 8 years of "addressing" this issue(That I know of). I'm irritated at how the white media PRETENDS like they don't know that we've addressed this issue. Our so-called 'double-standard' is a flat-out media LIE!!! It implies that we feel, as a community, that it's OK for gangsta rappers to say the things they say. But THEY (white media) KNOW THAT OUR PROTEST AND DISAPPROVAL GOES WAAAYYYYY BACK!!! To like ummm... The BEGINNING of "gangsta" rap. But we're not only fighting unconscious blacks, we're fighting unconscious blacks that are protected and backed by this LEVIATHAN we call a capitalist market. If we think white racism is an opponent, whew, wait till we try and take on this leviathan bare-fisted.

So again, my approach is not to focus on 'gangsta rappers', but to focus on the market, by putting positive images in videos, and positive words on radios.
quote:
Believe me, I fully understand the response. Read the next two sentences in my post...
You're right, Big Teach. You caught me slippin'...

I read that line in ER's post, scanned your post and did a very poor job of that.


BTW, excellent post (now that I've read it all). My point, though, was that the long-term history (you seemed to be referring to contemporary history) is a factor.

My slippin' aside... A lot of the other moments with either rap or the Welfare Queen, Single Mother slurs have been much more impersonal. They didn't single out a tangible, readily identifiable (and small) group with a name. This one did. The Rutgers basketball team, Scarlet (Lady) Knights (??).
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Our Community Is Suffering

I am disgusted and even hurt by Don Imus' comments, but I am also grateful because his comment has revealed to the world just how devalued Black women are in the eyes of America's general public. Apparently, this is the impression that Don Imus has of African American women: In order to be a hoar, an African American woman doesn't necessarily have to be sexually promiscous. Being an African American woman automatically qualifes her for hoar status. What's more, in the Black community, it is acceptable, cool, and even cute to refer to women as hoes. If you call a Black woman a "hoe," then you are paying her a compliment and expressing endearment. That's just how lowly our community has become. Calling a Black woman a "hoe" is a way of expressing endearment. Can you believe that? And this is the general perception that America has of Black woman - that we like or prefer being called hoes. PATHETIC. What's even more pathetic is not only are Black women being disrespected by men within their community, now we're being disrespected by men outside of our community. Can't say I didn't see this coming. Roll Eyes

Why do we make excuses for this disgraceful behavior? Why do we blame everyone else except the person who is responsible and should be held accoutable for thinking, saying, and rapping negative thoughts about a group of people? I don't care WHO the person is or WHAT color they are. Both White men AND Black men should be held accountable for disrespecting women. Period. I don't care how much a rapper is being paid to perform or who finances his career. All of these rappers have mothers. They should be held accoutable rather than coddled. They have grandmothers, aunts, and wives who are raising their children, mostly on their own, and who care very much about them. So why don't these chumps and sell-outs think about them before they dogg women out to make a fast and fleeting buck?


fro You are so right sista Rowe! And when I go into the juvenile all boys centers to do a music program, I start at the top before we even begin...and say "for those of you who don't know-I AM THE BOSS...and the first thing in order is there will be no cussing, name-calling to break it down for ya brothas...no bitches, and hoes, mofo...if you can say all that then you can read this book with no problem...any questions?...cuz if you have problem with what I'm putting down you can leave right now!" Straight silence. I demand respect from the very beginning. I am an no-nonsense instructor--I DON'T PLAY WITH KIDS. After I get their attention, then I can continue exposing them to not only our dynamic history BUT The DYNAMIC AND REMARKABLE WOMEN who made it all possible. My big voice on this issue has been muffled by the glitter of gangsta life. Most of these children come from broken homes, parents are drug addicted, homeless and involved in domestic violence. The only thing these children have is "the music." And they take this music to heart...will die over this music. And all this is...is a result of our children being abandoned....not so much by their parents...but by their community and society as a whole. We as black people have a lot of ISSUES...we must ADDRESS now. Now is the time. The window of opportunity is open...and there's little time. So... for those folks who talk all that blah blah to appear intelligent...now is the time to get off your butt and start talking to the kids in your neighborhood...hell start with your own kids if you have 'em, and children in your family. Start there. Otherwise, these people need to STFU and let those who care about children and their future handle it...cuz it is CLEAR these people ARE IN THE WAY!Cuz the bottom line to them is M-O-N-E-Y. And as we know all money is not good money-in fact it has never brought back the DEAD! Just a thought. fro
As long as this is a DISCUSSION, and not a venue to detail our day to day lives, I'll contribute my opinion. And as far as I'm concerned, this is still a discussion.

Now that the illness that we as a community HAVE BEEN addressing has gotten a little more exposure, hopefully the media can be duped into attracting intelligent attention to the ROOT of the problem.

Simple terms:
When workers in other countries protest the harsh conditions and cheap labor, and choose to boycott, almost instantaneously their vancancies are FILLED.

Translated into the hip-hop culture:
There will always be someone eager to be exploited in order to feed their hunger for existence.
Heru & Saracen-

You gentlemen have covered my thoughts on this matter - after the chat ended last night, I raised many of the points you two discussed here.

MBM-

Find the data on concert ticket sales. Like record sales, it's ALWAYS been driven by white consumers. How do you think MCs like Chuck D, Sista Souljah and Paris got on the radar of Ivy League schools for lectures? The painful truth is that artists are now treated as disposable - especially in hip-hop. NWA is not the villian. To be honest, the conscious rap phase was 2-3 years at best. Hip-hop has always been about parties, boasting and beats.

Another question (that I'll repost in your gangster rap commentary):

Why do we insist on raising hip-hop to a status higher than simple entertainment?
fro OH BTW: Until some of these brothas stop justifying why they call women these names...until real brothas come forward and call these men out....the names will continue. Some men don't ever think about their daughters...or mothers....or aunts, grandmothers...when other men degrade and humiliate... they stay silent. Russell Simmons continue to remain quiet about the name calling and focusing more on the "poverty" issue...the bottom line: just cuz you are poor, can't fed yourself, live in harsh conditions....is that a reason to call a woman a hoe, bitch and "cun...?" No! Until brothas fess up...women will continue to be riddled with this form of disrespect. It reminds me of the Hyksos [from Asia] and how they brought the mistreatment of women to Africa. Same thing. As long as "men" are not affected they could care less....unless of course it has something to do with MONEY....then you have their attention. Soooo sad! fro
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:
fro Russell Simmons continue to remain quiet about the name calling and focusing more on the "poverty" issue...the bottom line: just cuz you are poor, can't fed yourself, live in harsh conditions....is that a reason to call a woman a hoe, bitch and "cun...?" No!


Hey, Koco! Long time no font! Smile

Russell Simmons was on the Oprah panel today as part of a 2-day discussion devoted to the racism and sexism in hip hop music. She will probably never be given props for opening the door even wider on this issue ... but her shows were the best I've seen on this specific subject. She had an excellent panel of guests!!

Anyway, Russell held tight to his position as you've described it like a dog with a bone! Eek While the other (pro-misogyny in favor of making a buck) panelists were willing to finally admit that hip hop was degrading to women and that there was indeed a "problem" that needed to be address, Simmons simply wouldn't do it. In essence, it was not wrong because it was "real life" that was being expressed in "artistic fashion" by poverty-stricken, uneducated youth ... and it should not be silenced. It was sickening to say the least!

Ddouble ... those "closed door meetings" are basically being held by his partner and co-founder of the Hip Hop Action Network ... Dr. Benjamin Chavis . It seems that Russell is more interested in teaching youngsters (making money off of teaching youngsters) how to make money and lift themselves up. Dr. Chavis seems to be more interested in dialogging to find a solution to help solving this problem and heal the community.

At the end of the show it was Dr. Chavis who offered to take a group of rappers to sit down and talk with some of the women of Spelman who were also on the show.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Believe me, I fully understand the response. Read the next two sentences in my post...
You're right, Big Teach. You caught me slippin'...

I read that line in ER's post, scanned your post and did a very poor job of that.


BTW, excellent post (now that I've read it all). My point, though, was that the long-term history (you seemed to be referring to contemporary history) is a factor.

My slippin' aside... A lot of the other moments with either rap or the Welfare Queen, Single Mother slurs have been much more impersonal. They didn't single out a tangible, readily identifiable (and small) group with a name. This one did. The Rutgers basketball team, Scarlet (Lady) Knights (??).


Your points are very well taken; they help illustrate my point that the Rutgers womens' basketball team taught the world about the beauty and overall capability of Black women, and the folly of degrading them. Nmaginate, you are an outstanding and amazingly prolific poster; you are more than entitled to an occasional slip!
fro Yes, Sista EbonyRose....I saw that. And it was that attitude of his that pissed me off! It's all about the benjamins. I call Russell....the music pimp cuz that's what he is [to me!]. I wished it was a way to get me on Oprah...I would have told homeboy...just cuz you po'...don't mean you call a woman a ho...just cuz your daddy's a trick...doesn't mean your mama is a bitch... Poor people raise their children too, sometimes with better manners than middle and upper class children. This is just an excuse-cuz he really doesn't know what to say, however, he is not gonna abandoned his so-called theory... For years, I thought the brotha was high...cuz I never saw his eye until now. He is example of those 1970's pimp...[huggie bear types] an example of selective ignorance and human disregard just to make that money. I am EMBARASSED he is a Black man. If I ever had any doubts about Russell's integrity... it was clarified on Oprah. When he kept going back to poverty, harsh conditions and ignorance as an explanation to this form of disrespect toward women, he could not/did not recognize he was talking about himself....and his own experience. All I can say is whatever that sista did to you Russell ...whether it was your mother, your grandmother, a former girlfriend... I apologize. Cuz as a result, look how damaged your human perspective is-AND YOU HAVE DAUGHTERS. For me Tootie did it on the right [gang violence: black on black crime] and Mr. Russell did it on the left [gang theme music: hip hop].... So for these brothas to take their anger out on women and children is a testimony that massa still got his fingers in the fire of black psyche.... and he will never let go...cuz for him it's entertainment to see a black man doing stupid, self-degrading things to validate his worth as a human being....[to impress massa-who really cares less cuz for "massa" it has always been about the benjamins] fro
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So what is the win-win solution in your opinions ER, NS, Koco? I posted one in the Gangster Rap commentary thread.

I may be wrong, but what I'm getting from the words I'm reading here makes me sad.

1) Hip-hop does not equal thug/sexist/gang/criminal music. That's a sweeping & inaccurate generalization.

2) These young men (and women) in the hip-hop industry didn't pop out of some alien pod. They are our children, our siblings, our family. The ideas & values they carry didn't come to them by osmosis. We all play a role in this problem.

3) As Saracen has laid out clearly, censoring will not kill "gangster rap", it will only change the means of distribution. Additionally, by telling the youth that the art form they nurture (whether you agree with the content doesn't change the amount of effort & energy our young folk invest in making songs) is worthless without providing a rewarding & fulfilling replacement, you leave a bigger hole in our kids than you started with. Common said it best - hip-hop needs correction with love.


I think enough fingers have been pointed - I look forward to reading the win-win solutions you ladies have in mind.
Imus isn't the bad guy!

Instead of wasting time on irrelevant shock jock, black leaders need to be fighting a growing gangster culture.
By JASON WHITLOCK - Columnist

Thank you, Don Imus. You've given us (black people) an excuse to avoid our real problem.

You've given Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson another opportunity to pretend that the old fight, which is now the safe and lucrative fight, is still the most important fight in our push for true economic and social equality.

You've given Vivian Stringer and Rutgers the chance to hold a nationally televised recruiting celebration expertly disguised as a news conference to respond to your poor attempt at humor.

Thank you, Don Imus. You extended Black History Month to April, and we can once again wallow in victimhood, protest like it's 1965 and delude ourselves into believing that fixing your hatred is more necessary than eradicating our self-hatred.

The bigots win again.

While we're fixated on a bad joke cracked by an irrelevant, bad shock jock, I'm sure at least one of the marvelous young women on the Rutgers basketball team is somewhere snapping her fingers to the beat of 50 Cent's or Snoop Dogg's or Young Jeezy's latest ode glorifying nappy-headed pimps and hos.

I ain't saying Jesse, Al and Vivian are gold-diggas, but they don't have the heart to mount a legitimate campaign against the real black-folk killas.

It is us. At this time, we are our own worst enemies. We have allowed our youths to buy into a culture (hip hop) that has been perverted, corrupted and overtaken by prison culture. The music, attitude and behavior expressed in this culture is anti-black, anti-education, demeaning, self-destructive, pro-drug dealing and violent.

Rather than confront this heinous enemy from within, we sit back and wait for someone like Imus to have a slip of the tongue and make the mistake of repeating the things we say about ourselves.

It's embarrassing. Dave Chappelle was offered $50 million to make racially insensitive jokes about black and white people on TV. He was hailed as a genius. Black comedians routinely crack jokes about white and black people, and we all laugh out loud.

I'm no Don Imus apologist. He and his tiny companion Mike Lupica blasted me after I fell out with ESPN. Imus is a hack.

But, in my view, he didn't do anything outside the norm for shock jocks and comedians. He also offered an apology. That should've been the end of this whole affair. Instead, it's only the beginning. It's an opportunity for Stringer, Jackson and Sharpton to step on victim platforms and elevate themselves and their agenda$.

I watched the Rutgers news conference and was ashamed.

Martin Luther King Jr. spoke for eight minutes in 1963 at the March on Washington. At the time, black people could be lynched and denied fundamental rights with little thought. With the comments of a talk-show host most of her players had never heard of before last week serving as her excuse, Vivian Stringer rambled on for 30 minutes about the amazing season her team had.

Somehow, we're supposed to believe that the comments of a man with virtually no connection to the sports world ruined Rutgers' wonderful season. Had a broadcaster with credibility and a platform in the sports world uttered the words Imus did, I could understand a level of outrage.

But an hourlong press conference over a man who has already apologized, already been suspended and is already insignificant is just plain intellectually dishonest. This is opportunism. This is a distraction.

In the grand scheme, Don Imus is no threat to us in general and no threat to black women in particular. If his words are so powerful and so destructive and must be rebuked so forcefully, then what should we do about the idiot rappers on BET, MTV and every black-owned radio station in the country who use words much more powerful and much more destructive?

I don't listen or watch Imus' show regularly. Has he at any point glorified selling crack cocaine to black women? Has he celebrated black men shooting each other randomly? Has he suggested in any way that it's cool to be a baby-daddy rather than a husband and a parent? Does he tell his listeners that they're suckers for pursuing education and that they're selling out their race if they do?

When Imus does any of that, call me and I'll get upset. Until then, he is what he is "” a washed-up shock jock who is very easy to ignore when you're not looking to be made a victim.

No. We all know where the real battleground is. We know that the gangsta rappers and their followers in the athletic world have far bigger platforms to negatively define us than some old white man with a bad radio show. There's no money and lots of danger in that battle, so Jesse and Al are going to sit it out.
quote:
Kocolicious wrote: *snip* And it was that attitude of his that pissed me off! It's all about the benjamins. I call Russell....the music pimp cuz that's what he is [to me!]. I wished it was a way to get me on Oprah...I would have told homeboy...just cuz you po'...don't mean you call a woman a ho...just cuz your daddy's a trick...doesn't mean your mama is a bitch... Poor people raise their children too, sometimes with better manners than middle and upper class children. This is just an excuse-cuz he really doesn't know what to say, however, he is not gonna abandoned his so-called theory... For years, I thought the brotha was high...cuz I never saw his eye until now. He is example of those 1970's pimp...[huggie bear types] an example of selective ignorance and human disregard just to make that money. I am EMBARASSED he is a Black man. If I ever had any doubts about Russell's integrity... it was clarified on Oprah. When he kept going back to poverty, harsh conditions and ignorance as an explanation to this form of disrespect toward women, he could not/did not recognize he was talking about himself....and his own experience. All I can say is whatever that sista did to you Russell ...whether it was your mother, your grandmother, a former girlfriend... I apologize. Cuz as a result, look how damaged your human perspective is-AND YOU HAVE DAUGHTERS. For me Tootie did it on the right [gang violence: black on black crime] and Mr. Russell did it on the left [gang theme music: hip hop].... So for these brothas to take their anger out on women and children is a testimony that massa still got his fingers in the fire of black psyche.... and he will never let go...cuz for him it's entertainment to see a black man doing stupid, self-degrading things to validate his worth as a human being....[to impress massa-who really cares less cuz for "massa" it has always been about the benjamins]


Great post. tfro appl appl appl appl
I'm very confused here, Ddouble. I'm not sure where you're getting some of this from. Confused But, I'll try to clarify my position.

quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
1) Hip-hop does not equal thug/sexist/gang/criminal music. That's a sweeping & inaccurate generalization.


I'm not saying that it does. I don't think you've ever heard me say that the entire hip-hop "culture" has no redeeming qualities! And that would be a gross mischaracterization. What I am discussing, though, is that part of hip hop culture that does devalue women. I mean, it's not like I'm complaining about a hallucination, here! Eek

I have no problem with recognizing that there is a part of the hip hop culture that has a "social consciousness" that has our youth mobilizing and voting and becoming young entrepreneurs and, yes, that there are talented artists that actually can and do produce real forms of art. The garbage that is gangster rap does not qualify in that, though, but the entire "culture" is not in question here.

The degradation of the image of Black women in hip-hop music and videos most certainly is, though. The reality that we have 6-year-olds running around calling each other n***a, and the apparent consensus that it's OK for Black men to call Black women sluts and hos in a video that's broadcast around the world definitely needs to be addressed.


quote:
2) These young men (and women) in the hip-hop industry didn't pop out of some alien pod. They are our children, our siblings, our family. The ideas & values they carry didn't come to them by osmosis. We all play a role in this problem.


Again, I don't know where this has been denied. Roll Eyes And further, I would say that we all being a part of the problem, we all should be a part of the solution, as well.

quote:
3) As Saracen has laid out clearly, censoring will not kill "gangster rap", it will only change the means of distribution.


Sounds good to me! Send it to the dungeon where it belongs. Stop it from being played on radio stations where little children listen to it everyday. Take it off of BET. Make it pay-per-view! Big Grin In other words, making it less accessible, at the very least, is good for me.

quote:
Additionally, by telling the youth that the art form they nurture (whether you agree with the content doesn't change the amount of effort & energy our young folk invest in making songs) is worthless without providing a rewarding & fulfilling replacement, you leave a bigger hole in our kids than you started with. Common said it best - hip-hop needs correction with love.


I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that things like self-respect and appreciation of self, women and others, community and family are not rewarding & fulfilling? Or are you saying let our youth portray themselves as gangsters, thugs and hos because it pays them so well?

Of this particular argument it seems like people are of the opinion that the people who make these videos do not have the mental capacity to be able to express themselves or be otherwise successful in any other way that is not the definitive representation of a nigga/thug/bitch/ganster/ho. That they can't "be real" or "articulate their reality" unless it involves vulgar language and misogyny. Am I supposed to believe that our kids are completely unimaginative, untalented, or just plain stupid to the extent that they can't find a different way to say what they need to say? And just how many of our kids do you really think are living that kind of plush, slut-infested, high-roller, bathe in champagne kind of lifestyle? Confused

Now, excuse my French, but on the one hand, I could say that I think that Snoop Dogg and his putrid ilk, are some low-life, stanky, punk-ass, pencil-dick, jigabooing, f*cked up, coon-acting, minstrel bitches for doing what they do, and need caps busted up in their ass for doing it! Eek I could make a record about it or write a book and send it out into the world for all to see! But, do I really have to disrespect him or any Black men in order to simply say that Snoop is wrong for the way he portrays Black women and he needs to stop or be stopped with a quickness. Same thing. Both are true. But content is everything.

Our children can and should be taught how to show their artistic and intellectual value in ways that don't make them demean themselves nor their women. I don't think it's too much to ask them to rise about the level of the gutter to do so. We need to teach out children that money should not compromise integrity, especially their own. Nor should we be complicit in and accepting of the pimping of our children by white record company execs.


quote:
I think enough fingers have been pointed - I look forward to reading the win-win solutions you ladies have in mind.


win = send that bs underground to the dungeon where it belongs, stop glorifying 50 cent sliding credit cards down young black women's asses. stop celebrating Snoop showing up to an awards show with black women on leashes, face the reality that our children are getting pimped by materialism and an unrealistic delusion of self-importance by white record company execs who are perverting reality in order to get rich(er) ... win = and we all win a generation of Black youth with a more positive image of themselves, with enough self-respect to not let themselves be exploited for someone else's gain, who has enough ingenuity and talent to be able to find a way make money, be successful, and present a positive influence through art and culture about who they are and the "real" story of Black perseverance and survival to the world without having to denigrate, embarrass, and mistrilize themselves, Black women, the Black community, and the Black image ... for starters.
fro Sista EbonyRose....I couldn't have said it any better. For me, some men do not understand the ramifications of subliminal degradation....but as Shirley Chisholm says so elegantly..."I am UNBROUGHT and UNBOSSED"...by any interpretation of what "MAN" says I am. I won't be defined by the likes of those men....who sees women/girls as "booty" "merchandise" and "commomities.... I am as the universe says I am...equal and just as powerful. Most importantly, I DON'T have to explain my worth....to any man for his comfort level and justification as to why he must "devalue" me to bring value to himself... I am what I am...not become of him...but cuz of the universe that created me "free"...not for sale. Good job sistagirl! tfro
fro As for solutions.... how can one get to that point where there's deaf ears on the problem? You ask okay let's find a solution....but if I say STOP callin' women out their names as a start... you want to say but I'm expressin' the poverty I'm in... [I look at you and say] What!? What does that got to with integrity, values, merit, respect? Huh...? Cuz I didn't prepare dinner for you [cuz you have the ability to cook for yourself]...I got to be a "bitch?" Cuz you hungry....I got to be a "ho?" [I look at you again and say] What planet are you on? Already the disrespect is unmoved. Already you're on the attack. Why? Cuz you're used to blaming me for your disappointments and failures in life. Sounds like a "personal" problem to me. But I'm easy. I'm not as physically strong as you. So knowing that, I try to talk to let you know what you are doing that's inappropriate...but you say I talk too much... So I'm curious... how are we gonna resolve anything if there is no real discussion...? You don't wanna hear it. Not what I gotta say. It's riduculous you imply. So I will talk slowly... and let you know what many of us women want from men...R-E-S-P-E-C-T! It's up to you to find out what that means....cuz when WE try to tell you...you start talkin about economics...or you shut down completely... can't have it both ways. Although you try...it's NOT WORKIN'... just a thought. fro
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:
So I will talk slowly... and let you know what many of us women want from men...R-E-S-P-E-C-T! It's up to you to find out what that means....cuz when WE try to tell you...you start talkin about economics...or you shut down completely... can't have it both ways. Although you try...it's NOT WORKIN'... just a thought. fro


I gotta give an AMEN to that, Ms. Koco!! tfro That is sooooo true, sistagirl! We say we want respect, but they say, well, we can't respect you and make money at the same time ... so you'll have to get over it! Eek

But, you know, another thought occurred to me ... I wonder what the conversation would be if it were men who had their naked asses up in the air, or it was their cracks that were getting swiped with a credit card, or their necks on dog leashes??? Confused Would they be so accommodating if it were them who were constantly being referred to as b*****s and hos and having their manhood reduced to some kind of animalistic form of humanity?? 19

I think not. sad

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