Illegal Immigration

quote:

Originally posted by mirahjay:

9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.

I've never been to Mexico, but I have seen how people drive in Colombia first hand.



I'm all for requiring that all immigrants, whether documented or undocumented, study the driver's manual, take the test, and get a drivers license.

I can't imagine why so many people want to exempt undocumented immigrants from the requirement of obtaining a valid drivers license.

That's just plain crazy!

quote:

Originally posted by ricardomath:
I can't imagine why so many people want to exempt undocumented immigrants from the requirement of obtaining a valid drivers license.

That's just plain crazy!

It's just another example of the lack of common sense that is always prevelent in regards to this issue.

I understand what coalitions are,my question is?Are the members of the Hispanic or other minority organizations actively seeking to make coalitions with the African American Community?

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Originally posted by ZAKAR:

I understand what coalitions are,my question is?Are the members of the Hispanic or other minority organizations actively seeking to make coalitions with the African American Community?

I don't know the answer to your question and I am at a loss to see what that has to do with their future capacity to align with us or anyone else. Perhaps the better question is have African Americans - in any meaningful way - reached out to Latinos in an effort to create meaningful political alliances? We're a bit more entrenched in the American system. Shouldn't we be the ones reaching out to them?

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Originally posted by MBM:
1) Who knows. I guess that would depend on his qualifications and the proclivity of the owner to hire a young black man. What do you think?

2) Why do you think that immigrants have been so readily available?

1) Well, I didn't ask you if you knew, I asked you what you thought. And yes I do think the young Black male would have gotten the job.

2) Perhaps because so many of them cross the border illegally to get here.

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Capitalism is built on maximizing revenue and minimizing costs. Companies stretch the law as far as they can to accomplish this. Even if every single undocumented worker from Mexico was unlawfully employed, there are far more than 11 million jobs in the U.S. Those companies are hiring someone, somehow.

Exactly.

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I'm not sure how you can speculate about this. Are you trying to infer that without the undocumented labor that there would be no company? Be assured that if there is market demand, that there will be companies there to meet it.

No, I was asking you if you thought that was a possibility. Personally, I'd tend to think there would be a company, it would hire "someone, somehow", even if they had to pay a living wage to someone like the young, Black male who was ultimately turned down for the job that was immediately given to the non-English-speaking Mexican.

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

2) Perhaps because so many of them cross the border illegally to get here.

Out of curiosity, why do you think there are so many Mexican immigrants in the U.S.? Why haven't more gone to, say, Venezuela or further South into South America where there wouldn't be such an large language barrier to contend with?

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Originally posted by MBM:

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Originally posted by EbonyRose:

2) Perhaps because so many of them cross the border illegally to get here.

Out of curiosity, why do you think there are so many Mexican immigrants in the U.S.? Why haven't more gone to, say, Venezuela or further South into South America where there wouldn't be such an large language barrier to contend with?

Economics! why go from one poor country to another.

ok a lot of illegal immigrants come from a poor country (Mexico) come do jobs low skilled and skilled cheaper than market rate. At the same time African Americans are increasingly out of work.But the African Americans suppose to reach out and not only help the illegal immigrants here, but open the door for more to come. While many cities African American unemployment is 50% I will be dam if I gonna help cut my own throat.

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Originally posted by ZAKAR:

But the African Americans suppose to reach out and not only help the illegal immigrants here, but open the door for more to come.

Who has suggested this ZAKAR?

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Originally posted by ZAKAR:
ok a lot of illegal immigrants come from a poor country (Mexico) come do jobs low skilled and skilled cheaper than market rate. At the same time African Americans are increasingly out of work.But the African Americans suppose to reach out and not only help the illegal immigrants here, but open the door for more to come. While many cities African American unemployment is 50% I will be dam if I gonna help cut my own throat.

LOL at helping someone cut your own throat. You should not be so easily threatened by immigrants. Remember that "playing the victim card" that Zakar spoke against in the other thread? Now, it's the immigrants fault that we can't get a job?

Well, we're in the same boat as Whites. Whites are dealing with outsourcing just like anyone else. The job issue is bigger than immigration reform.

Most of the jobs in America are service oriented. So that means if this immigration bill hits growing young black people will be a PERMANENT UNDERCLASS lost in America. With the low scale jobs being immigrant friendly it will be much harder to get those service jobs for young black people.

As you see the "young black person" has already been stigmatized and stereotyped as being rude, time consuming, lazy, etc to engage with. That happen first. Greater society thought this was FUNNY and ACCEPTED this as a TRUTH. I thought it was sad and not funny at all. They even did movies and television programs based on this behavior of 'young black people' in the service industry.

Next those same employers TESTED out immigrant labor. Everybody on the job said wow these immigrants work like no tommorrow and they cheap. We NEED more of these type of workers. General society said wow, I can eat cheap, build cheaply, clean cheaply and the service is fast. I dont have to see one of those 'black' faces with attitude anymore. They work the backend while 'blacks' work the front end where 'English' is required.

Now most of these immigrants have been in America long enough and developed English through 'free' ESL programs and now are ready for a PROMOTION in American society. That is where we are at.

Once Congress allow immigrant a status other than illegal that will open the flood gates for more immigration followed by demanding status. It will repeat keep repeating over and over.

This is OUR government fault. Bush might like this because immigrants can be used to serve in Iraq for ie green card in which young black people are reported to not be signing up readily.

I am sorry for growing young black people. We as a community should have did more. Well I am doing some "free" work along this line to address situations like this in my community. Like someone mention here we have to develop our own "black" model of work and success instead of following white gods. Hopefully I will bear fruit.

I knew this was going to happen sooner or later and explode in all our faces. As a fool I am glad I kept my eye on this situation and not follow the norms of greater society.

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
Out of curiosity, why do you think there are so many Mexican immigrants in the U.S.? Why haven't more gone to, say, Venezuela or further South into South America where there wouldn't be such an large language barrier to contend with?

You've got to be kidding, right?

Why does any immigrant want to come to The Land of the Free??

I dont hate immigrants, not at all, I hate the policy that produces the environment for this influx to occur. We do not have a border to flow back and forth accross, we have been disconnected from our people. But being outcast in this system of white supremacy, one has to be out of their mind not to see the connection between high illegal immigrant migration and high unemployment and underemployment of African people. No one that continues to suggest we are being racist by wanting to make sure we as a people survive. where are these people gonna live , in our communities, not the white community, who will lose housing , not white people, who will lose social services, educational benifits who will be serverly impacted by the growning numbers of people coming to this country illegally. There wouldnt be any arguement if they were legal or fleeing genocide or oppression. they simply come from a poorer country that is using this vehicle to get rid of its underclass by sending them here to the US. No one ever want to answe the question. How is this affecting the lives of African people. Instead of addressing that, they divert the quetion to lets not support the oppression of other minorities when they willingly come here to be exploited, so that tells you off the break they are not oppressed

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Originally posted by EbonyRose:

Why does any immigrant want to come to The Land of the Free??

How exactly are you "free" ER? If you don't have the bank account there are all told things that you simply cannot do in this country. Beyond that, someone got arrested recently because of the attached bumper sticker. Are you free to say what you want? Your phones and emails can be tapped. Your house can be searched without a warrant. All of your private bank and financial records can be taken - such that every penny you spend can be reviewed by the government. Beyond that, as a black women, there are all sorts of things that you still cannot do and places you cannot go.

How exactly are you free?



Immigrants are "free" to come here to be exploited!

I just want someone to address one question: How does the issue of illegal immigration of cheap labor affect the African American community, could someone please address this?????

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Originally posted by ZAKAR:

I just want someone to address one question: How does the issue of illegal immigration of cheap labor affect the African American community, could someone please address this?????

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Originally posted by MBM:

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Originally posted by Yemaya:

How do people who come here without being born here and have not gone through the proper procedures to achieve citizenship here, affect African Americans?

Hiring undocumented workers depresses wages and takes jobs away from the poor/working class - of which African Americans represent a higher percentage than our share of the over-all population. To be clear, the workers themselves don't do this, the companies who break the law and hire them do. The companies exploit the workers by paying them sub minimum wage rates - often in unsafe/unhealthy conditions and with no benefits. These companies also exploit African Americans when employing these workers - by potentially preventing us from taking those jobs.

On the other hand, as Minister Farrakhan is currently doing, if we are able to create any kind of meaningful alliance with Latinos, there are considerable political benefits to be won. We certainly have more in common than not.

so what are you saying? Illegal immigration is displacing African Americans, but we should form alliances with them to make sure they continue to do so?

Brother - you feign total ignorance about what exploitation is and who is doing it. You would rather blame a poor Mexican immigrant who has less than you, then be smart and focus your attention on the real problem.

That's both disappointing, but also suggests a disingenuousness about your pro-black stance. It would seem that you would be much more interested in who is really hurting you so as to maximize the impact of your energy.

If I throw a ball and hit you with it. Are you going to be mad at me or at the ball? Continuing to talk about "illegal immigrants" is talking about the ball.

WHERE DID I BLAME THE IMMIGRANT.Because im not gong hoe about jumping on a Mexican bandwagon, im against them. I think about the intrest of African people thats my primary concern, everyone else seems to be looking out for their people. Why in the hell do we always put ourselves in a postion to be the ones without food on our plates. No one put a gun to any of these immigrants head and forced them to come across the border the willingly do so but we suppose to accept that as being for oppressed people.

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Originally posted by ZAKAR:

Illegal immigration is displacing African Americans, but we should form alliances with them to make sure they continue to do so?

In your opinion, do African Americans have more in common with the rich white business owners who make money off of wages being low and having undocumented workers that they pay sub minimum wages to OR the Mexicans who are forced to work 15 hours a day in 100 degree heat to make $30? Do we have more in common with the person who oppresses us both or do we have more in common with each other?

quote:

Originally posted by ZAKAR:

WHERE DID I BLAME THE IMMIGRANT.

Talking about "illegal immigration" is buying squarely into the hype about this issue. It is the spin that white supremacy puts on their exploitation.

There is no illegal immigration issue. There is, however, an illegal hiring issue.

since you will never answer the question i asked. No we dont have anything in common with rich whites and we dont have anything in common with illegal immigrants we are in a distinct situation here in this country. Like ive said many times the mexicans ,el salvadorians and others in latin america with large african populations push the blacks to the bottom of the heap and the lighterskinned are in power. So you expect me to believe these people will come across the border and all of a sudden see us as brothers in struggle, when in fact they never included us in their agenda or invite our input on these issues. Seems to me they are thinking about thier own group intrest and so should we

IMO
The illegal immigration is a matter of greed. And, its excepted by politican as being OK. How many politicans had to withdraw from nomination because they employed an illegal immigrant as a Nanny or Gardner? Greed made 9/11 possible. Why are the Mexican borders NOT locked down to keep illegal aliens out? Is it possible we could also keep out terrorist too b y locking down the Mexcican borders? GREED!!

After 9/11, I don't understand the debate. We need to tighten up the borders as well as the immigration bureau. We should know who is in our country and where they reside if they are not a citzen of this great country. Our current system is a joke. A perfect example of this is seen in the movie "15 Minutes."

We should give the illegal aliens who are currently residing here a chance to become citzens. Beef up the fight against illegal aliens as they did in 1954 with "Operation Wetback" that was successful. The government was so successful, the illegal aliens were 2,000,000 and in time reduced to 200,000 in Cesear Chavez hay-day of the 70's.

Hopefully, GREED will not do us in!!

quote:

Originally posted by Diamond:
IMO
The illegal immigration is a matter of greed. And, its excepted by politican as being OK. How many politicans had to withdraw from nomination because they employed an illegal immigrant as a Nanny or Gardner? Greed made 9/11 possible. Why are the Mexican borders NOT locked down to keep illegal aliens out? Is it possible we could also keep out terrorist too b y locking down the Mexcican borders? GREED!!

After 9/11, I don't understand the debate. We need to tighten up the borders as well as the immigration bureau. We should know who is in our country and where they reside if they are not a citzen of this great country. Our current system is a joke. A perfect example of this is seen in the movie "15 Minutes."

We should give the illegal aliens who are currently residing here a chance to become citzens. Beef up the fight against illegal aliens as they did in 1954 with "Operation Wetback" that was successful. The government was so successful, the illegal aliens were 2,000,000 and in time reduced to 200,000 in Cesear Chavez hay-day of the 70's.

Hopefully, GREED will not do us in!!

Why should we close the border? What the hell is wrong with people wanting a better life for thmeselves and their families?

The problem is corporations who try to keep costs down and profits up by attracting immigrants over the border to work near slave labor so the bosses can stay rich. The people we should be pitching a bitch at are the corporations.

But, that's media hegemony for you. The corporate media can blame the victim and keep the powerful people out of trouble, and the American sheeple follow lock-step.

Personally, I don't have a problem with immigrants. I have a problem with Neoliberal corporations conducting slave labor.

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Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by ZAKAR:

WHERE DID I BLAME THE IMMIGRANT.

Talking about "illegal immigration" is buying squarely into the hype about this issue. It is the spin that white supremacy puts on their exploitation.

There is no illegal immigration issue. There is, however, an illegal hiring issue.

Speaking of, have you noticed how many Black people parrot lines of White racists when it comes to the issue of immigration?

I sense that for a lot of Black people, as much as we complain about racism, many of us are just as racist. I sense that a lot of Black people are upset about immigration because we are afraid of being replaced as the "Biggest Minority" (read: House Nigger).

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
How exactly are you free?

Let's ask a Continental African about freedom and I'll get back to you.

You insult my intelligence with such a question, MBM.

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Originally posted by EbonyRose:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
How exactly are you free?

Let's ask a Continental African about freedom and I'll get back to you.

You insult my intelligence with such a question, MBM.

Sorry you insult so easily. I'm sure many of us would find plenty of places in Africa - including Ghana and Kenya, to be much more in keeping with our sense of personal freedom and liberty.

Don't confuse getting a paycheck with being "free".

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Originally posted by MBM:

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Originally posted by EbonyRose:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
How exactly are you free?

Let's ask a Continental African about freedom and I'll get back to you.

You insult my intelligence with such a question, MBM.

Sorry you insult so easily. I'm sure many of us would find plenty of places in Africa - including Ghana and Kenya, to be much more in keeping with our sense of personal freedom and liberty.

Don't confuse getting a paycheck with being "free".

This is a "free" country alright, IF YOU'RE RICH.

ER,
Let's ask the 40 million Americans with no health care, the 50 million with inadequate health care, the 5 million unemployed, the growing number being layed off due to Outsourcing, the milions filing for bankruptcy in the past 6 years and the coming 4 years and millions upon millions of underpaid workers how "free" they are.

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Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
ER,
Let's ask the 40 million Americans with no health care, the 50 million with inadequate health care, the 5 million unemployed, the growing number being layed off due to Outsourcing, the milions filing for bankruptcy in the past 6 years and the coming 4 years and millions upon millions of underpaid workers how "free" they are.

No, EP ... let's ask people who get shot in the face for typing things like you just said what is freedom. Or ask those who have to sit and watch their mothers or sisters get raped and then get their hands chopped off just for being in a certain country at the wrong place at the wrong time what is freedom. Or if that's too difficult, go to a gravesite in Zimbabwe and dig up and ask one of the dead who demonstrated for for freedom what freedom is.

And stop asking me to believe that freedom only has to do with how much money one has. Funny how so much is taken for granted when just trying to prove a ridiculous point.

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Originally posted by EbonyRose:
No, EP ... let's ask people who get shot in the face for typing things like you just said what is freedom.

Yes, in Capitalist dictatorships like Singapore, Colombia, Peru, Chile, Argentina, Saudia Arabia, Croatia and Cambodia.

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Or ask those who have to sit and watch their mothers or sisters get raped and then get their hands chopped off just for being in a certain country at the wrong place at the wrong time what is freedom. Or if that's too difficult, go to a gravesite in Zimbabwe and dig up and ask one of the dead who demonstrated for for freedom what freedom is.

Zimbabwe is a proto-Fascist Neoliberal dictatorship BACKED BY THE US GOVERNMENT, I might add. Before you go on and on about dictatorships, go read up on your beloved gub'ment's relationship with them. Our military-industrial complex trained guerilla fighters on US military bases to murder Socialist leaders like Patrice Lumumba (in my avatar) and Kwame Nkrumah and supported Fascist Capitalist dictators like Robert Mugabe and Mobutu Sese-Seko.

Under Clinton, our military ran to aid Neo-Fascist Croatia in thier campaign against Serbia.

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And stop asking me to believe that freedom only has to do with how much money one has. Funny how so much is taken for granted when just trying to prove a ridiculous point.

While we speak, our government trains death squads for the Coca-Cola company to murder union leaders in Colombia. Yeah, we sure support "freedom" alright. Freedom from people like Hugo Chavez and support for people like Pinochet and Noriega.

Need I bring up the domestic history of labor union-busting?

We are in a time in history where we are gonna have to take some bold strategic moves to secure a decent future for our children. It is getting tougher and tougher out here for our children to make it, there so many symptoms that has to be addressed we would be foolish to take for granted othergroups williness to make alliances with us when they are gonna fight over the same crumbs we been fighting all the years to get. If we dont take self intrest seriously the consequences will be drastic. I same form an independent party anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by ZAKAR:
We are in a time in history where we are gonna have to take some bold strategic moves to secure a decent future for our children. It is getting tougher and tougher out here for our children to make it, there so many symptoms that has to be addressed we would be foolish to take for granted othergroups williness to make alliances with us when they are gonna fight over the same crumbs we been fighting all the years to get. If we dont take self intrest seriously the consequences will be drastic. I same form an independent party anyway.

Dude, you're seriously falling for the okie-doke.

You're falling for one the classical tactics of Fascism: Fearmongering of A Scapegoat Figure.

http://www.favreau.info/misc/14-points-fascism.php

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

In this case: immigrants.

I fail to see how immigrants pose a threat to African-Americans. Even if they do, the fault is not with people coming to this country to provide a better life for their families, it is with businesses attracting them over here to get cheap slave labor.

Dude, your missing the point. I know the immigrants are not the blame, I know American Imperialism drives this, but dude im talking about reality. Im talking about the fact that because of this no matter who is the blame. African americans will lose, thats reality. The fact of the matter is the Hispanic community are not going to splitt power with us. They are gonna grab what they can grab. So regardless who;s the blame,the reality is we are gonna be the one lose.I just want us to realize this.Now question is really, What are we gonna do as African people in America to ensure our survial?

quote:

Originally posted by ZAKAR:
Dude, your missing the point. I know the immigrants are not the blame, I know American Imperialism drives this, but dude im talking about reality. Im talking about the fact that because of this no matter who is the blame. African americans will lose, thats reality. The fact of the matter is the Hispanic community are not going to splitt power with us. They are gonna grab what they can grab. So regardless who;s the blame,the reality is we are gonna be the one lose.I just want us to realize this.Now question is really, What are we gonna do as African people in America to ensure our survial?

You say they are "grabbing power". Have you stopped to consider why that is? THEY ORGANIZE. THEY CAN GET TOGETHER AS A PEOPLE AND UNITE.

Hispanics who come to this country came from not having a lot and don't mind sharing row houses with 10 other families and rolling up their sleeves and sacrificing luxuries to achieve a future goal. The same can't be said for African-Americans because we have been in this country so long that we have taken on many of White Americans' negative traits. We don't have a lot either, but we have the White Man's attitude. We feel entitled as entrenched Americans that we should have certain things and don't feel obligated to sacrifice luxury and leisure to work together. When some of us do get money, we go "Fuck the rest y'all" and move into White suburban neighborhoods and leave behind the rest of the community to sink or swim and adopt an "Everyone should pull themselves up by their own bootstraps" mentality (just look at Black Republicans).

We may talk Black, but when we get money, we act "White". We should take some notes on the communal effort of Hispanics and Asian-Americans.


Anyways, you were saying they won't share power. And likewise, if we obtain power, will we share it with them? If not, then we have no room to complain.


This is why I'm a Pan-Minorityist. I'm sick of all this bullshit where Minorities are fighting each other jocking for House Nigger status (everybody wants to be the new rich Minority getting pats on the head from White people). It's a fucking Race to the Bottom. Why don't we all work together to obtain economic, political and social power so we run this country for us instead of competing for employment from White employers? All this competing for wage slavery shit is sickening.

Thats what im saying we must unite with ourselves.I know what power is dude, come on thats why im saying what im saying.You may think im nieve but im talking about reality. Im talking how it is in the streets.Unless we teach our African children to love their African selves its over. Pan Minoritist.Whats that? how can we be Pan Minoritist by ourselves? If every other group is united with their group spending their money with their group, why in the hell would we spend ours with everyone else? doesnt make sense thats why we suffer. We want to be accepted by everyone else adn neglect our ownselves. Call it what you want im Pan Africanist Period.

And by the way, ask your brothers and sistas from Central and South America, about black brown Alliances.

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Originally posted by ZAKAR:

Im talking how it is in the streets.Unless we teach our African children to love their African selves its over.

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Call it what you want im Pan Africanist Period.

If you are unwilling to make black black alliances, then perhaps you should refer to yourself not as African, but as African American, or follow JWC and call yourself an African American American.

Oh, what the hell...why not just call yourself an African American American American American American.

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about black brown Alliances.

But what about black black alliances?

You can be a Pan African American American American American American, too.

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Originally posted by ricardomath:
. . . or follow JWC and call yourself an African American American.

Isn't there supposed to be a hyphen in there somehwere?

I consider all people of african decent African even if they dont. But where did i not say i would support the upliftment of all African people around the world? I think your putting words in my mouth for some reason?

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Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by ricardomath:
. . . or follow JWC and call yourself an African American American.

Isn't there supposed to be a hyphen in there somehwere?

There is, but I can never remember exactly where the hyphen goes...