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What do you think about the issue of illegal immigration? Are you sympathetic to the immigrants who come here merely looking to put food on their tables and who provide a needed service in our economy? Are you of the belief that they are criminals - breaking the law and should be removed back to their home countries? What should be done about this issue? Are the immigrants really the problem or are the businesses who hire and exploit them the ones? Do you believe that they should be denied public services because of their status?

What do you think?

© MBM

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My sympathies are completely with the immigrants. I am all for opening up of the borders. What we have now are double standards that have nothing to do with justice for poor, oppressed, or exploited peoples. For example:

Businesses as well as individuals can exploit many immigrants because of their status.

Globally, the economic/political practices of the developed nations is complicit in creating depressed situations in the third world.

If we don't like the policies of a nation, immigrants from that country can fairly readily obtain sanctuary (Cuba), otherwise too bad (Haiti).
Slavery
(or doing the jobs Americans won't do)

Our 'peculiar institution' of slavery is over, right? Wrong!

Amazingly we have found yet another underclass to import and exploit - illegal immigrants.

Whether you align yourself with the donkey or the elephant, you will find very few differences regarding illegal immigrants from either. From both animals we hear 'they are doing the jobs Americans won't do'. What is conveniently left out of that mantra is wages. Yes, many Americans won't work for the slave wages that illegals will. It is particularly interesting to note that legal immigrants won't do that work either. Illegal immigrants (often called 'undocumented') are usually hired by the unscrupulous that intentionally exploit them for profit. Agriculture is a traditional offender. Others include: construction, landscaping, hotels, fast food, auto body, etc. There is no end to greedy businesses with zero morals. Many individuals also use these modern-day slaves by hiring them to do gardening and janitorial tasks in the home. These are self-deluded people of questionable character. Mexicans are dying in our deserts because their government tells them to come, our government turns a blind eye to existing laws, and we hire them.

Who is to blame? Ultimately, American citizens have allowed this to happen.

We have listened and believed the hyperbole and outright lies surrounding the issues without question, logic be damned. We have watched as every lame excuse is paraded in front of us, and bought the lot. I've heard time and time again, they're just looking for a better life. Ironically, those arguing for the status quo usually say it. In other words: a better life = slave wages, unsafe working conditions, unhealthy living conditions, etc. Oh, and you better not complain cuz there's 10,000 more just like you who won't. This is better?

A two-step approach would easily resolve these problems.

1. Enforce the penalties associated with hiring, harboring, aiding or abetting illegal immigrants (commonly referred to as Interior Enforcement). These are quite severe: Knowingly employing an illegal is a federal felony.

2. Put the US military on the border until the word gets out that we are aggressively prosecuting employers who hire illegals. When jobs are scarce, they'll stop coming. Many will go home.

Pretty simple huh? You may wonder why your government isn't already implementing this. For whatever reason, and there are many theories, our government wants slaves. There can be no other explanation. Were you aware that many of the same arguments used to defend illegal immigration today were used to defend the importation of Chinese 'coolie labor' for big businesses to keep wages low during the late 19th century? This is generally thought of as a low point in our history. Today, countries all over the world are wisely debating the problems of illegal immigration and taking action, but not the USA. How's that for the moral high ground? Not to be outdone, churches are actively helping illegals to stay in the country. I guess more parishioners = more collections. So let's stop acting as if we are horrified by our historic black slavery, for we have instituted its 21st century equivalent. As history has shown, greed and morality cannot coexist.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
What do you think about the issue of illegal immigration? Are you sympathetic to the immigrants who come here merely looking to put food on their tables and who provide a needed service in our economy? Are you of the belief that they are criminals - breaking the law and should be removed back to their home countries? What should be done about this issue? Are the immigrants really the problem or are the businesses who hire and exploit them the ones? Do you believe that they should be denied public services because of their status?

What do you think?


If it was'nt for the immigrants this country would economically shut down. Politicians can rant and rave all they want, but they know the truth. The majority of immigrants are actually practicing the TRUE free market system: You go where you can get the best deal in ones mind. For all those other people crying about immigrants, they got a problem with it, they can always pick up the slack and start doing the jobs the immigrants are doing. Oh but that would be too "menial" in thier eyes...
L.A. braces for protest, as Bush addresses 'emotional debate'
Pending legislation spurs tens of thousands to march


LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- As thousands of people were expected to protest legislation cracking down on illegal immigrants on Saturday, President Bush said he planned to toughen enforcement of immigration laws.

"America is a nation of immigrants, and we're also a nation of laws," Bush said in his weekly radio address.

"When illegal immigrants know they will be caught and sent home, they will be less likely to break the rules, and our immigration system will be more orderly and secure."

The president acknowledged it was an "emotional debate" but continued "America does not have to choose between being a welcoming society and being a lawful society."

A march against proposed legislation in Congress was set for Saturday through downtown Los Angeles, California, a day after thousands of people staged similar demonstrations in Georgia, Arizona and elsewhere. (Watch crowds take over streets in Phoenix, Arizona -- 0:42)

Next week, the Senate will take up immigration overhaul, with at least four different proposals rattling around the Capitol.

Among the thorny issues the Senate will tackle is Bush's guest worker program for immigrants, which has proven unpopular with many of his fellow Republicans. Senators must also decide whether more than 11 million people already in the United States illegally will be given a chance to earn legal status -- a process critics dismiss as "amnesty."

An immigration bill that passed the House of Representatives in December makes entering the country illegally a felony and calls for construction of 700 miles of security fence along the U.S.-Mexico border.

The House bill would also require employers to verify the immigration status of workers before hiring them, with increased fines for employers who fail to comply. The proposals have angered many Latinos.

"As we debate the immigration issue, we must remember there are hardworking individuals, doing jobs that Americans will not do, who are contributing to the economic vitality of our country," said Bush.

In Phoenix, Arizona, on Friday, police said 20,000 demonstrators marched to the office of Republican Sen. Jon Kyl, co-sponsor of a bill that would give illegal immigrants up to five years to leave the country, The Associated Press reported. The turnout clogged major thoroughfares in what officials said was one of the largest protests in the city's history. People also protested outside Kyl's Tucson office, according to AP.

Protesters "should be pleased that the Senate is probably going to address this in a much more comprehensive way," Kyl told the Tucson Citizen newspaper during a meeting with its editorial board, according to AP.

In Los Angeles, more than 2,700 students from at least eight high schools and junior high schools walked out Friday, district officials told AP. Some carried Mexican flags as they walked down the streets, police cruisers behind them.
Peach State protest

In Georgia, activists said tens of thousands of workers did not show up at their jobs Friday after calls for a work stoppage to protest a bill passed by the Georgia House on Thursday.

That bill, which has yet to gain Senate approval, would deny state services to adults living in the U.S. illegally and impose a 5 percent surcharge on wire transfers from illegal immigrants.

Supporters say the Georgia measure is vital to homeland security and frees up limited state services for people legally entitled to them. Opponents say it unfairly targets workers meeting the demands of some of the state's largest industries.

Teodoro Maus, an organizer of the Georgia protest, estimated as many as 80,000 Hispanics did not show up for work, AP reported. About 200 converged on the steps of the Georgia Capitol, some wrapped in Mexican flags and holding signs reading: "Don't panic, we're Hispanic" and "We have a dream, too."

Jennifer Garcia told AP she was worried what the proposal would do to her family. She said her husband is an illegal Mexican immigrant.

"If they send him back to Mexico, who's going to take care of them and me?" she asked AP. Garcia said of herself and her four children. "This is the United States. We need to come together and be a whole."

On Monday, Bush is to attend a naturalization ceremony in Washington where he will watch new citizens raise their right hands and swear to uphold the laws of the United States, according to The Associated Press. Later in the week, immigration likely will surface as a topic in Cancun, Mexico, where Bush is to meet with Mexico's President Vicente Fox, AP reported.

Bush said the government is trying to end a decades-long practice of releasing illegal immigrants soon after capture because of a lack of space in detention centers.

"We're adding more beds so we can hold the people we catch, and we're reducing the time it takes to send them back home," he said.

The president emphasized that a temporary worker program he's proposed would not provide amnesty to illegal immigrants in the United States. "For the sake of justice and for the sake of border security, I firmly oppose amnesty," Bush said.
Its hard for me to side with he governent when the country was "stolen" from the outset. (so is it really illegal immigration?)The gov't has used minorities for years to do their dirty work so now it seems like it is finally biting them in he ass and they have no clue on how to stop the flood gates. All these lame efforts to keep everyone out just seems to entice more and more to come on in.


catch

Half a million march against US immigration reform



Demonstrators march in Los Angeles, California, to protest of proposed illegal immigration legislation. Half a million protesters paralyzed downtown Los Angeles, demanding amnesty for undocumented immigrants and rejection of a proposed law that would drastically tighten US immigration rules.(AFP/Getty Images/J. Emilio Flores)

LOS ANGELES (AFP) - Half a million protesters paralyzed downtown Los Angeles, demanding amnesty for undocumented immigrants and rejection of a proposed law that would drastically tighten US immigration rules.

A sea of people, many wearing white T-shirts and waving US flags and flags of their nations of origin -- especially Mexico -- flooded the main Los Angeles avenues in a peaceful and sometimes festive protest.

Some marchers blasted trumpets and played Mexican mariachi tunes, while others waved signs and handed out flyers detailing "immigrant rights."

"We have got to stop the approval of anti-immigrant reforms, demand a migration reform that is humane and fair, and not racist," said Javier Rodriguez of the March 25 Coalition, which organized the event.

The Coalition represents dozens of pro-immigrant groups as well as farmer, labor, religious and student groups.

To the cry of "Amnesty for all!" the crowd surged towards the office of Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, where they heard from the mayor and other community leaders.

At the height of the rally there were "at least 500,000 people," said Sarah Faden with the Los Angeles Police Department.

LAPD Sergeant J. Baker was stunned by the size of the crowd. "I have never seen a demonstration this big in years and years here in LA," he said.

One protest organizer, Nativo Lopez of the Mexican American Political Association (MAPA), put the crowd at more than a million spread out across the city.

The rally began soon after President George W. Bush defended his plan to regularize some of the undocumented workers in his weekly radio address.

"America is a nation of immigrants, and we're also a nation of laws. And our immigration laws are in need of reform," said Bush.

Bush wants to regularize the status of illegal workers who "fill jobs that Americans will not do."

His plan "would create a legal way to match willing foreign workers with willing American employers," he said.

Bush spoke as Congress prepares to debate a much stricter immigration reform bill that targets illegal immigrants, who account for 24 percent of farm workers, 17 percent of cleaners and 14 percent of construction workers.

The law would make all undocumented immigrants criminals, require all employers to verify the immigration status of their employees, and construct a wall along much of the US-Mexico border.

The US House of Representatives has already passed the bill. In the Senate, a companion bill was introduced that also would make it a felony to be in the United States without proper immigration documents.

"We are human beings," said Juan Carlos Lopez, a Mexican construction worker at the march who migrated illegally to the United States five years ago. "We want a humane reform to immigration laws without racism that will allow us to work."

There is an estimated 12 million undocumented migrants living in the United States, a large percentage from Latin America, especially Mexico.

About 15 percent of the US population of nearly 300 million is of Hispanic origin, according to census figures. The number includes both recent immigrants and families who have been in the region for centuries.

In the state of California, with a population of nearly 34 million, nearly one-third are of Hispanic origin.

Los Angeles, the largest city on the US west coast, has a population of more than 9.5 million -- 4.2 million of whom are of Hispanic origin, including Mayor Villaraigosa.

Full story here
I am sorry if I offend anyone here but I have absolutely NO sympathy for illegal immigrants (except africans and haitians).

I believe that those illegal immigrants should stop, look at their current environment and demand and fight for a change. It is more citizens than there are government soldiers. Fight for better school systems, better health, better rights, etc. And if the government isn't hearing it, then revolt!

This is why I look at the foreigners who come here and look down upon americans and say we are all lazy. Well, I say to them, well if your people aren't lazy, then why did you leave your country and come here? You could have just stayed there and tried to help spark a revolution.

I believe that illegal immigrants cost us in the end. All the money being used to care for them could be used instead to better our education system. I believe that 95% of illegal immigrants in this country (except africans and haitians) are nothing more than selfish leaches that claim to come here for a better life but in reality, they just come here to get a job to make a better life for themselves and their immeadiate family. They have no intention on being patriotic or contributing to society. If it were otherwise, they would have stayed in Mexico or wherever else they came from and try to improve the overall situation there.

Everyone claims that they are such hard workers but they are really not. I mean, not in the sense of fighting for what they believe in. Its like they want everything to be handed to them. And now all of a sudden they want to fight for something in the form of these protests? I say that is pure bullshit!!! Why won't they do that back where they came from??? All they do here is add to the already ever-increasing complacency of society.

They don't attempt in any way to make their situation in their home coutry better. They just say screw it and head for the north.

And just so you all know, I have absolutely NOTHING against spanish people from anywhere in the world. In fact, more than a few of my closest friends are hispanic. (I am black.)
What about the rights of legal immigrants---what's their opinion?

What about the African-American workforce---I think there are enough brothers and sisters willing to do such work but strangely enough I haven't read any survey's regarding this except for the African-Americans who are competing with illegals for the jobs in the Perdue Chicken plants in North Carolina.

Open borders???? How about open schools where some children of illegals are already crowding over-crowded schools with BiLingual or similar programs costing 10 to 15 billion dollars a year in taxes. Should that money be used to improve the American school system?

What is the impact of illegal immigrantion on the African-American community? We are still a vulnerable economic group.

How many times must a store customer repeat themselves b/c the store clerk (where you are paying for a service) doesn't understand you (linguistically) or vice versa?

What happen when a loved one is hit by a car and killed by an illegal who is of course undocumented will they stay at the scene to report the crime or run to their country?

What about carriers of TB an air-born disease or similar maladies they can't report b/c of their fear of being deported?

What new language are you willing to learn to accomodate them for their convience but not necessarily yours?

Why was the late great Ceasar Chavez against illegal immigration ? Was it b/c they depressed wages for legal immigrants and American citizens? Are illegals Union-busters???

If you're not paying taxes of course it's easier to open a business in aN AA community but then again they get the props for being so hard working and industrious.

Most reports indicate that there approximately 11 million illegals in this country already that they know of but I surmise that the population could be higher.

"Me minority too" so I should get the Affirmative Action slots reserved for AA's who have a long history of discrimination in this country.

I always hear that immigrants built this country---but what about our unpaid, raped and discriminated against slave ancestors?

These are just views not necessarily all of mine but just maybe a snack for thought.

I believe in Legal Immigration!
quote:
Originally posted by Connectz:

... absolutely NO sympathy for illegal immigrants (except africans and haitians).

...95% of illegal immigrants in this country (except africans and haitians) are nothing more than selfish leaches ...


When you feel the need to qualify every other sentence with your pet exceptions, then maybe most of what you are saying is simply bullsh!t.
Again folks, IMO, the PEOPLE are not the proper focal point here. If you are having trouble feeding your family - for whatever reason - then who wouldn't do what it takes to care for them? Those of you who attack these folks coming here - you mean to tell me you would rather your children starve, then take a job that is there waiting for you and allows you to feed them? Confused

It is the companies who break the law and hire these undocumented workers - almost always at below minimum (or market) wage rates and with no benefits etc. - that deserve our ire. These companies are looking to maximize profits by exploiting these workers. They know they can't do it to Americans, so they create incentives for folks to risk their lives to come over for the work.

If companies weren't so greedy as to create the economic incentives to attract undocumented workers - then clearly there would be no immigration issue.
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
There is not a person posting on this board who has not exceeded the speed limit or let a parking meter expire at some point in our lives.

We are all "criminals".

We are all "illegals".

When we talk about "criminals" and "illegals", we are talking about ourselves, as well as those 11 million or so other "criminals" and "illegals".

I agree. But, an important aspect of this that we have to take into account is that if they are not in country legally, they are not privy to a number of legal rights that citizens and legal resident aliens are. This is not to their benefit any more than it is to ours. As MBM noted, the corporate infrastructure takes advantage of them, simply because they can.

As I've said before, illegal immigration only helps the upper-twenty-percent of America. It hurts everyone else.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
There is not a person posting on this board who has not exceeded the speed limit or let a parking meter expire at some point in our lives.

We are all "criminals".

We are all "illegals".

When we talk about "criminals" and "illegals", we are talking about ourselves, as well as those 11 million or so other "criminals" and "illegals".

I agree. But, an important aspect of this that we have to take into account is that if they are not in country legally, they are not privy to a number of legal rights that citizens and legal resident aliens are. This is not to their benefit any more than it is to ours. As MBM noted, the corporate infrastructure takes advantage of them, simply because they can.

As I've said before, illegal immigration only helps the upper-twenty-percent of America. It hurts everyone else.

But are these people any less exploited in their own countries than they are here. If they had economic/political justice in their own country, I seriously doubt whether they would risk life and limb to get here.

The real criminals are the international financial institutions, multinational corporations, and the governments that are complicit with them.

I could give a rip about whether they are breaking the law or not. Morally/ethically I do not believe that anyone should be compelled to adhere to unjust laws.

If we want to cease the flow of immigrants to this country, then we need to promote economic/political/social reforms in Latin America instead of supporting structures that facilitate these peoples exploitation by corrupt governments we have up to now supported because it is in the supposed interest of our foreign or economic policy.
Thousands of African-Americans and legal immigrants were made homeless, jobless and displaced by Hurricane Katrina. Many of them would take the jobs these illegals are obtaining in a minutes notice---but I don't see any efforts by good Ol' Uncle Sam to match these citizens to these jobs.

If the military draft was re-instated only citizens and legal immigrants would be called upon and not illegals. This issue would strike very close to home if the son or daughter of an American family was killed in action while your next door illegal immigrant family goes scott-free.

Notable historic figures such as Frederick Douglas, Booker T. Washington, W.E.B DuBois and Marcus Garvey were against LEGAL immigrantion until all American citizen were totally employed. Their opinions were based on the uber-high unemployment rates of AA's and even poor whites of the time and yes even being a legal citizen you could lose your job to outsourcing to foreign nations. In the mid 1980's to early 1990's how many computer company professionals lost their jobs to outsourcing.

Have you ever had to repeat yourself numerous times to a Tech-Support worker stationed in another country when your computer gliches?

I believe in full employment for Americans and legal immigrants first. I'm pro-refugee asylum (temporarily),I'm against illegals and job out-sourcing.
quote:
Originally posted by 4YAINFO:

If the military draft was re-instated only citizens and legal immigrants would be called upon and not illegals. This issue would strike very close to home if the son or daughter of an American family was killed in action while your next door illegal immigrant family goes scott-free.


Just an FYI. I bumped a thread on this issue for you.

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/79160213/m/40170599
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by Connectz:

... absolutely NO sympathy for illegal immigrants (except africans and haitians).

...95% of illegal immigrants in this country (except africans and haitians) are nothing more than selfish leaches ...


When you feel the need to qualify every other sentence with your pet exceptions, then maybe most of what you are saying is simply bullsh!t.


Dude look, I don't have to prove a damn thing to you. I couldn't give two shits about whether or not you think what I am saying is bullshit or not.

Those are my opinions an I am entitled to them. If you do not like them, then thats your perogative. Just don't think you are getting the best of me because you said the bullshit that you did.

I said it once and I will say it again, I don't mind hatians and africans or other black people in general getting here by any means necessary. They have it MUCH WORSE than ANY of the latin countries. So if you want me to be blunt, i'll say it "Fuck all those leeches over there protesting these immigration reform proposals." They want it to stay the way it is so they can get more of there people over here to leech off of the tax dollar coming out of MY paycheck.

If you don't like my views on this subject guess what... I don't give a fuck, plain and simple.
quote:
Originally posted by umbrarchist:
I think we are being played.

The solution is fix the global economy so immigrants don't need to come here. It means spreading the American Dream world wide. We can't do that by turning the world's natural resources into garbage.

That depreciation I'm constantly talking about.

umbrarchist


Now this I can definately agree with.
quote:
Originally posted by Connectz:

So if you want me to be blunt, i'll say it "Fuck all those leeches over there protesting these immigration reform proposals." They want it to stay the way it is so they can get more of there people over here to leech off of the tax dollar coming out of MY paycheck.

If you don't like my views on this subject guess what... I don't give a fuck, plain and simple.



bs bs bs racist

(Yawn) sleep Typical arrogant gringo racist bullshit. The only leech is you.
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quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
If we want to cease the flow of immigrants to this country, then we need to promote economic/political/social reforms in Latin America instead of supporting structures that facilitate these peoples exploitation by corrupt governments we have up to now supported because it is in the supposed interest of our foreign or economic policy.

That makes sense, but these things are difficult enough to do here on our own soil. I've always thought that our foreign policy should be minimal at best. There are far too many problems to clean up right here. But, as you noted, we support these institutions that are worsening latin America, and that is not in our interests either. America needs to collectively back up, regroup, and get it's own straight. This mess regarding illegal immigration is not all that different from the war in Iraq, or our current tax policies, in the sense that it benefits a select few while the rest of us are generally left to go and hang.
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by Connectz:

So if you want me to be blunt, i'll say it "Fuck all those leeches over there protesting these immigration reform proposals." They want it to stay the way it is so they can get more of there people over here to leech off of the tax dollar coming out of MY paycheck.

If you don't like my views on this subject guess what... I don't give a fuck, plain and simple.



bs bs bs racist

(Yawn) sleep Typical arrogant gringo racist bullshit. The only leech is you.


No holmes. Looks like you are offended that people don't want all these illegal immigrants here in the U.S., in particular, the Mexicans.

While I will admit that maybe my original statement was biased in regards to haitians and africans, it does not negate what I said.

And one more thing essay, I am no "gringo", I am black. So, you already know what I am going to tell you what can do with your "typical racist gringo" statement.

I have absolultely NO sympathy for ANY illegal alien in this country.

There, is that better chivato?
quote:
Originally posted by Connectz:

I am no "gringo", I am black.


Saying that black gringos are not gringos is like saying that black latinos are not latinos.

BTW, the term "gringo" is not necessarily pejoritive. That is a huge misconception on the part of gringos. It is primarily descriptive, and only aquires a pejoritive meaning (as in "Ugly American") by the context in which it is used.

Could you tell from the context that I meant it pejoratively?
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quote:
Originally posted by tmonster:

Anyone feel like thinking outside the box and asking why can't we help fix their country so they dont have to come here?


What do you see as America's incentive to do that? There is a great incentive for those in power to keep things as they are. They're getting fat off the curernt arrangement. sck
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by tmonster:

Anyone feel like thinking outside the box and asking why can't we help fix their country so they dont have to come here?


What do you see as America's incentive to do that? There is a great incentive for those in power to keep things as they are. They're getting fat off the curernt arrangement. sck


We don't run the School of the Americas (SOA--"School Of Assassins") for nothing...

http://www.soaw.org
Wow!

What is the SOA?

The School of the Americas (SOA), in 2001 renamed the "Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation," is a combat training school for Latin American soldiers, located at Fort Benning, Georgia.

Initially established in Panama in 1946, it was kicked out of that country in 1984 under the terms of the Panama Canal Treaty. Former Panamanian President, Jorge Illueca, stated that the School of the Americas was the "biggest base for destabilization in Latin America." The SOA, frequently dubbed the "School of Assassins," has left a trail of blood and suffering in every country where its graduates have returned.

Over its 59 years, the SOA has trained over 60,000 Latin American soldiers in counterinsurgency techniques, sniper training, commando and psychological warfare, military intelligence and interrogation tactics. These graduates have consistently used their skills to wage a war against their own people. Among those targeted by SOA graduates are educators, union organizers, religious workers, student leaders, and others who work for the rights of the poor. Hundreds of thousands of Latin Americans have been tortured, raped, assassinated, "disappeared," massacred, and forced into refugee by those trained at the School of Assassins.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Wow!

What is the SOA?

The School of the Americas (SOA), in 2001 renamed the "Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation," is a combat training school for Latin American soldiers, located at Fort Benning, Georgia.

Initially established in Panama in 1946, it was kicked out of that country in 1984 under the terms of the Panama Canal Treaty. Former Panamanian President, Jorge Illueca, stated that the School of the Americas was the "biggest base for destabilization in Latin America." The SOA, frequently dubbed the "School of Assassins," has left a trail of blood and suffering in every country where its graduates have returned.

Over its 59 years, the SOA has trained over 60,000 Latin American soldiers in counterinsurgency techniques, sniper training, commando and psychological warfare, military intelligence and interrogation tactics. These graduates have consistently used their skills to wage a war against their own people. Among those targeted by SOA graduates are educators, union organizers, religious workers, student leaders, and others who work for the rights of the poor. Hundreds of thousands of Latin Americans have been tortured, raped, assassinated, "disappeared," massacred, and forced into refugee by those trained at the School of Assassins.


I have a thread here about some recient victories in the struggle against the SOA.

¡No Mas!

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/79160213/m/9751002783
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by tmonster:

Anyone feel like thinking outside the box and asking why can't we help fix their country so they dont have to come here?


What do you see as America's incentive to do that? There is a great incentive for those in power to keep things as they are. They're getting fat off the curernt arrangement. sck


ehhh, you walked right into my trap
That is the whole point, the tail is wagging the dog. Why are Black Americans and white workers showing anymous to mexican migrants when our gubment has set up this dynamic to favor corporations(SOA as a minute example). We are falling for the okie doke big time, workers should always unite. Workers are the country.
The Hutchinson Report: Illegal Immigration Creates Ground Rung of Jobs That're ˜For Latinos Only'

Date: Friday, April 07, 2006
By: Earl Ofari Hutchinson, Special to BlackAmericaWeb.com




The young black man hesitated as he stood outside the small furniture manufacturing shop in South Los Angeles. He was dressed neatly, and he was well groomed. He eyed the building warily. The sign on the narrow glass door, in English and Spanish, read "Help Wanted" and trabajo aqui. The opening was for a shop helper, mostly to sweep up and do routine clean up and maintenance. It did not require any education or special skill. It paid minimum wage, as did the thousands of shops that dotted the area. The company had no employee health care plan or other benefits.

After a moment, he went in and politely asked for an application. The petite receptionist, a young Latina, handed him an application form, with an airy nonchalance. She curtly suggested that he fill it out and bring it back. When he asked if there would be an interview, she haltingly said only if there was a position open. The young man looked perplexed, glanced at the "Help Wanted" sign, politely thanked her and left.

A couple of hours later, two other young Latinos came in to apply. One was immediately hired. The other was told that another helper job might open up within the next few days.

The workers in the shop, as they were in nearly all the other shops in the area, were Latinos, a large percentage of whom were illegal immigrants. There were no other blacks, whites or even English speaking, native-born Latino workers in the plant or at few of the other shops in the area.

This is not a fictional story. I personally witnessed the scene at the company involving the black job seeker. Anti-illegal immigration activists say that the experience of the young black job seeker has played out thousands of times at restaurants, hotels, on farms and at manufacturing plants nationally, and that this is a major reason so many young black males are unemployed, join gangs, deal drugs and pack America's jails.

Congress will hammer out a comprehensive immigration reform law. But it won't answer this question: Do the estimated 10 to 12 million illegal immigrants in the country take jobs from American citizens, especially the bottom-rung American workers -- the young, the poor and, more often than not, African-American workers?

What if the young black job seeker, or any other American looking for work in a low-end manufacturing plant or a restaurant in Los Angeles, were offered that job which probably pays minimum wage and doesn't offer any benefits or job security? Would he take it?

Maybe yes, maybe no.

It's certainly hard to imagine that a young black from South Los Angeles, South Chicago or Harlem -- not to mention a native-born, young white or Latino -- going out to the fields to pick strawberries for 10 to 12 hours a day in the hot sun at minimum or even sub-minimum wages. Or, that they'd take a job at a car wash or bus dishes in a restaurant. But what if the farm contractors, car wash owners and manufacturers paid a living wage and provided benefits? It might be a different story -- at least for some young people in Los Angeles.

Then there's the regional factor. There is some evidence that young American workers will work jobs in the South and the Midwest -- jobs that have long been designated as those "that only illegal immigrants will take" -- that is, if those jobs were offered to them. But when employers give the quick brush-off to young blacks and other young American workers that are willing to take lower-end jobs, they send the not-so-subtle message that they are not wanted or welcome.

This is a powerful disincentive for them to pursue work in these taboo areas of the job market. The end result is that an entire category of jobs at the ground rung of American industry is clearly marked "Latino only."

The fight over jobs and illegal immigration came at the worst possible time for the urban poor. Shrinking federal and state budgets for job training and creation programs, industry downsizing and escalating crime and violence in inner city neighborhoods made banks and corporations even more reluctant to invest in these communities, and that made the job situation even worse.

The young black in Los Angeles and other cities that anti-illegal immigration opponents cite as proof that illegal immigration is ruinous for the economy and the urban poor may or may not have lost out in his job hunt to an illegal immigrant. But he also might have lost out in his job search because of discrimination, poor education, government budget slashes and the flight of manufacturers to other countries. That is no excuse not to ensure that American workers have the right to work in any and all industries.

That would do much to calm the fury of many Americans who worry that illegal immigration sledgehammers at least some American workers. Congress and the Bush Administration must not ignore that worry.

---

Earl Ofari Hutchinson is a political analyst and social issues commentator. His column appears in The State of Black America channel every Friday.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

The young black in Los Angeles and other cities that anti-illegal immigration opponents cite as proof that illegal immigration is ruinous for the economy and the urban poor may or may not have lost out in his job hunt to an illegal immigrant.


The article presents the issue - correctly - from the standpoint of the employer discriminating against the young black man, then somehow "jumps the fence" to blame "illegal immigration". Confused No undocumented worker took the black man's job. The _employer_ prevented that young man from working. The employer breaks the law by hiring the undocumented worker. The employer breaks labor laws in the way that they hire and employ these workers.

There is no "illegal immigration" problem. There is an ILLEGAL EMPLOYMENT problem!
the below post is very similar to my feelings on this issue.
Now, do know I have enjoyed many warm friendships with people who have immigranted here,but I quickly add;they all arrived here legally and speaking ENGLISH,
They also arrived without a "tude", demanding a handout. I ask; are Mexicans and their supporters also going to bat for the unfair treatment of would be Haitian immigrants?

The explanation we have been given for summarily returning them to Haiti as we at the same time roll out the red, white and blue carpet for Cubans is the latter have to be pitied and coddled. They are feeling oppression and communism whereas Haitians are fleeing poverty and we the U. S .of A cannot accommodate their poverty. I ask therefore what are Mexicans fleeing? Roll Eyes



MR. PRESIDENT, I'M HEADED TO MEXICO


Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.

I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.

So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.
2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.
3. All government forms need to be printed in English.
4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.
5. Schools need to include classes on American culture
and history.
6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.
7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.
8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.
9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.
10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English.
11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don t enforce any labor laws or tax laws.
13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely. However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.

Thank you so much for your kind help.

Sincerely,
David M. B______
NewsWithViews.com
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

And if there hadn't been an immigrant so readily available to take that job, do you think the young Black male would have gotten it?


1) Who knows. I guess that would depend on his qualifications and the proclivity of the owner to hire a young black man. What do you think?

2) Why do you think that immigrants have been so readily available?

quote:
Or that the job would have gone unfilled?


Capitalism is built on maximizing revenue and minimizing costs. Companies stretch the law as far as they can to accomplish this. Even if every single undocumented worker from Mexico was unlawfully employed, there are far more than 11 million jobs in the U.S. Those companies are hiring someone, somehow.

quote:
Or that there would have been no such company, hence no job available?


I'm not sure how you can speculate about this. Are you trying to infer that without the undocumented labor that there would be no company? Be assured that if there is market demand, that there will be companies there to meet it.
do you think this population will form coalitionas with the black community. Do you think their agenda is to make america a fair and just place for all, or are they just opportunist who will look out for their own intrest. I mean when have Latino, Asians, Arabs, or any other group come to our aid. Better yet, out of all the other minority groups in this country how many of them spend one dime with black people. All I see is mostly these groups try to take advantage of our position in this society to better themselves and their people to the detriment of us.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
do you think this population will form coalitionas with the black community. Do you think their agenda is to make america a fair and just place for all, or are they just opportunist who will look out for their own intrest. I mean when have Latino, Asians, Arabs, or any other group come to our aid. Better yet, out of all the other minority groups in this country how many of them spend one dime with black people. All I see is mostly these groups try to take advantage of our position in this society to better themselves and their people to the detriment of us.
GIVE US OUR Reparations THEN if all these tax dollars are going to help MEXICO!!
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:

do you think this population will form coalitionas with the black community.


Coalitions are about securing interests that cannot be otherwise won. Do you presume that Mexican Americans would have some conceptual opposition to aligning with African Americans if there was mutual benefit in it? Why?

quote:
Do you think their agenda is to make america a fair and just place for all, or are they just opportunist who will look out for their own intrest.


I believe that their interest are no more or less self-centered than ours.

quote:
I mean when have Latino, Asians, Arabs, or any other group come to our aid.


Probably about as often as we have come to their's.

quote:
All I see is mostly these groups try to take advantage of our position in this society to better themselves and their people to the detriment of us.


How can any other minority group "take advantage" of our position? Please explain this.

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