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What do you think about the issue of illegal immigration? Are you sympathetic to the immigrants who come here merely looking to put food on their tables and who provide a needed service in our economy? Are you of the belief that they are criminals - breaking the law and should be removed back to their home countries? What should be done about this issue? Are the immigrants really the problem or are the businesses who hire and exploit them the ones? Do you believe that they should be denied public services because of their status?

What do you think?

© MBM

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My sympathies are completely with the immigrants. I am all for opening up of the borders. What we have now are double standards that have nothing to do with justice for poor, oppressed, or exploited peoples. For example:

Businesses as well as individuals can exploit many immigrants because of their status.

Globally, the economic/political practices of the developed nations is complicit in creating depressed situations in the third world.

If we don't like the policies of a nation, immigrants from that country can fairly readily obtain sanctuary (Cuba), otherwise too bad (Haiti).
Slavery
(or doing the jobs Americans won't do)

Our 'peculiar institution' of slavery is over, right? Wrong!

Amazingly we have found yet another underclass to import and exploit - illegal immigrants.

Whether you align yourself with the donkey or the elephant, you will find very few differences regarding illegal immigrants from either. From both animals we hear 'they are doing the jobs Americans won't do'. What is conveniently left out of that mantra is wages. Yes, many Americans won't work for the slave wages that illegals will. It is particularly interesting to note that legal immigrants won't do that work either. Illegal immigrants (often called 'undocumented') are usually hired by the unscrupulous that intentionally exploit them for profit. Agriculture is a traditional offender. Others include: construction, landscaping, hotels, fast food, auto body, etc. There is no end to greedy businesses with zero morals. Many individuals also use these modern-day slaves by hiring them to do gardening and janitorial tasks in the home. These are self-deluded people of questionable character. Mexicans are dying in our deserts because their government tells them to come, our government turns a blind eye to existing laws, and we hire them.

Who is to blame? Ultimately, American citizens have allowed this to happen.

We have listened and believed the hyperbole and outright lies surrounding the issues without question, logic be damned. We have watched as every lame excuse is paraded in front of us, and bought the lot. I've heard time and time again, they're just looking for a better life. Ironically, those arguing for the status quo usually say it. In other words: a better life = slave wages, unsafe working conditions, unhealthy living conditions, etc. Oh, and you better not complain cuz there's 10,000 more just like you who won't. This is better?

A two-step approach would easily resolve these problems.

1. Enforce the penalties associated with hiring, harboring, aiding or abetting illegal immigrants (commonly referred to as Interior Enforcement). These are quite severe: Knowingly employing an illegal is a federal felony.

2. Put the US military on the border until the word gets out that we are aggressively prosecuting employers who hire illegals. When jobs are scarce, they'll stop coming. Many will go home.

Pretty simple huh? You may wonder why your government isn't already implementing this. For whatever reason, and there are many theories, our government wants slaves. There can be no other explanation. Were you aware that many of the same arguments used to defend illegal immigration today were used to defend the importation of Chinese 'coolie labor' for big businesses to keep wages low during the late 19th century? This is generally thought of as a low point in our history. Today, countries all over the world are wisely debating the problems of illegal immigration and taking action, but not the USA. How's that for the moral high ground? Not to be outdone, churches are actively helping illegals to stay in the country. I guess more parishioners = more collections. So let's stop acting as if we are horrified by our historic black slavery, for we have instituted its 21st century equivalent. As history has shown, greed and morality cannot coexist.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
What do you think about the issue of illegal immigration? Are you sympathetic to the immigrants who come here merely looking to put food on their tables and who provide a needed service in our economy? Are you of the belief that they are criminals - breaking the law and should be removed back to their home countries? What should be done about this issue? Are the immigrants really the problem or are the businesses who hire and exploit them the ones? Do you believe that they should be denied public services because of their status?

What do you think?


If it was'nt for the immigrants this country would economically shut down. Politicians can rant and rave all they want, but they know the truth. The majority of immigrants are actually practicing the TRUE free market system: You go where you can get the best deal in ones mind. For all those other people crying about immigrants, they got a problem with it, they can always pick up the slack and start doing the jobs the immigrants are doing. Oh but that would be too "menial" in thier eyes...
L.A. braces for protest, as Bush addresses 'emotional debate'
Pending legislation spurs tens of thousands to march


LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- As thousands of people were expected to protest legislation cracking down on illegal immigrants on Saturday, President Bush said he planned to toughen enforcement of immigration laws.

"America is a nation of immigrants, and we're also a nation of laws," Bush said in his weekly radio address.

"When illegal immigrants know they will be caught and sent home, they will be less likely to break the rules, and our immigration system will be more orderly and secure."

The president acknowledged it was an "emotional debate" but continued "America does not have to choose between being a welcoming society and being a lawful society."

A march against proposed legislation in Congress was set for Saturday through downtown Los Angeles, California, a day after thousands of people staged similar demonstrations in Georgia, Arizona and elsewhere. (Watch crowds take over streets in Phoenix, Arizona -- 0:42)

Next week, the Senate will take up immigration overhaul, with at least four different proposals rattling around the Capitol.

Among the thorny issues the Senate will tackle is Bush's guest worker program for immigrants, which has proven unpopular with many of his fellow Republicans. Senators must also decide whether more than 11 million people already in the United States illegally will be given a chance to earn legal status -- a process critics dismiss as "amnesty."

An immigration bill that passed the House of Representatives in December makes entering the country illegally a felony and calls for construction of 700 miles of security fence along the U.S.-Mexico border.

The House bill would also require employers to verify the immigration status of workers before hiring them, with increased fines for employers who fail to comply. The proposals have angered many Latinos.

"As we debate the immigration issue, we must remember there are hardworking individuals, doing jobs that Americans will not do, who are contributing to the economic vitality of our country," said Bush.

In Phoenix, Arizona, on Friday, police said 20,000 demonstrators marched to the office of Republican Sen. Jon Kyl, co-sponsor of a bill that would give illegal immigrants up to five years to leave the country, The Associated Press reported. The turnout clogged major thoroughfares in what officials said was one of the largest protests in the city's history. People also protested outside Kyl's Tucson office, according to AP.

Protesters "should be pleased that the Senate is probably going to address this in a much more comprehensive way," Kyl told the Tucson Citizen newspaper during a meeting with its editorial board, according to AP.

In Los Angeles, more than 2,700 students from at least eight high schools and junior high schools walked out Friday, district officials told AP. Some carried Mexican flags as they walked down the streets, police cruisers behind them.
Peach State protest

In Georgia, activists said tens of thousands of workers did not show up at their jobs Friday after calls for a work stoppage to protest a bill passed by the Georgia House on Thursday.

That bill, which has yet to gain Senate approval, would deny state services to adults living in the U.S. illegally and impose a 5 percent surcharge on wire transfers from illegal immigrants.

Supporters say the Georgia measure is vital to homeland security and frees up limited state services for people legally entitled to them. Opponents say it unfairly targets workers meeting the demands of some of the state's largest industries.

Teodoro Maus, an organizer of the Georgia protest, estimated as many as 80,000 Hispanics did not show up for work, AP reported. About 200 converged on the steps of the Georgia Capitol, some wrapped in Mexican flags and holding signs reading: "Don't panic, we're Hispanic" and "We have a dream, too."

Jennifer Garcia told AP she was worried what the proposal would do to her family. She said her husband is an illegal Mexican immigrant.

"If they send him back to Mexico, who's going to take care of them and me?" she asked AP. Garcia said of herself and her four children. "This is the United States. We need to come together and be a whole."

On Monday, Bush is to attend a naturalization ceremony in Washington where he will watch new citizens raise their right hands and swear to uphold the laws of the United States, according to The Associated Press. Later in the week, immigration likely will surface as a topic in Cancun, Mexico, where Bush is to meet with Mexico's President Vicente Fox, AP reported.

Bush said the government is trying to end a decades-long practice of releasing illegal immigrants soon after capture because of a lack of space in detention centers.

"We're adding more beds so we can hold the people we catch, and we're reducing the time it takes to send them back home," he said.

The president emphasized that a temporary worker program he's proposed would not provide amnesty to illegal immigrants in the United States. "For the sake of justice and for the sake of border security, I firmly oppose amnesty," Bush said.
Its hard for me to side with he governent when the country was "stolen" from the outset. (so is it really illegal immigration?)The gov't has used minorities for years to do their dirty work so now it seems like it is finally biting them in he ass and they have no clue on how to stop the flood gates. All these lame efforts to keep everyone out just seems to entice more and more to come on in.


catch

Half a million march against US immigration reform



Demonstrators march in Los Angeles, California, to protest of proposed illegal immigration legislation. Half a million protesters paralyzed downtown Los Angeles, demanding amnesty for undocumented immigrants and rejection of a proposed law that would drastically tighten US immigration rules.(AFP/Getty Images/J. Emilio Flores)

LOS ANGELES (AFP) - Half a million protesters paralyzed downtown Los Angeles, demanding amnesty for undocumented immigrants and rejection of a proposed law that would drastically tighten US immigration rules.

A sea of people, many wearing white T-shirts and waving US flags and flags of their nations of origin -- especially Mexico -- flooded the main Los Angeles avenues in a peaceful and sometimes festive protest.

Some marchers blasted trumpets and played Mexican mariachi tunes, while others waved signs and handed out flyers detailing "immigrant rights."

"We have got to stop the approval of anti-immigrant reforms, demand a migration reform that is humane and fair, and not racist," said Javier Rodriguez of the March 25 Coalition, which organized the event.

The Coalition represents dozens of pro-immigrant groups as well as farmer, labor, religious and student groups.

To the cry of "Amnesty for all!" the crowd surged towards the office of Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, where they heard from the mayor and other community leaders.

At the height of the rally there were "at least 500,000 people," said Sarah Faden with the Los Angeles Police Department.

LAPD Sergeant J. Baker was stunned by the size of the crowd. "I have never seen a demonstration this big in years and years here in LA," he said.

One protest organizer, Nativo Lopez of the Mexican American Political Association (MAPA), put the crowd at more than a million spread out across the city.

The rally began soon after President George W. Bush defended his plan to regularize some of the undocumented workers in his weekly radio address.

"America is a nation of immigrants, and we're also a nation of laws. And our immigration laws are in need of reform," said Bush.

Bush wants to regularize the status of illegal workers who "fill jobs that Americans will not do."

His plan "would create a legal way to match willing foreign workers with willing American employers," he said.

Bush spoke as Congress prepares to debate a much stricter immigration reform bill that targets illegal immigrants, who account for 24 percent of farm workers, 17 percent of cleaners and 14 percent of construction workers.

The law would make all undocumented immigrants criminals, require all employers to verify the immigration status of their employees, and construct a wall along much of the US-Mexico border.

The US House of Representatives has already passed the bill. In the Senate, a companion bill was introduced that also would make it a felony to be in the United States without proper immigration documents.

"We are human beings," said Juan Carlos Lopez, a Mexican construction worker at the march who migrated illegally to the United States five years ago. "We want a humane reform to immigration laws without racism that will allow us to work."

There is an estimated 12 million undocumented migrants living in the United States, a large percentage from Latin America, especially Mexico.

About 15 percent of the US population of nearly 300 million is of Hispanic origin, according to census figures. The number includes both recent immigrants and families who have been in the region for centuries.

In the state of California, with a population of nearly 34 million, nearly one-third are of Hispanic origin.

Los Angeles, the largest city on the US west coast, has a population of more than 9.5 million -- 4.2 million of whom are of Hispanic origin, including Mayor Villaraigosa.

Full story here
I am sorry if I offend anyone here but I have absolutely NO sympathy for illegal immigrants (except africans and haitians).

I believe that those illegal immigrants should stop, look at their current environment and demand and fight for a change. It is more citizens than there are government soldiers. Fight for better school systems, better health, better rights, etc. And if the government isn't hearing it, then revolt!

This is why I look at the foreigners who come here and look down upon americans and say we are all lazy. Well, I say to them, well if your people aren't lazy, then why did you leave your country and come here? You could have just stayed there and tried to help spark a revolution.

I believe that illegal immigrants cost us in the end. All the money being used to care for them could be used instead to better our education system. I believe that 95% of illegal immigrants in this country (except africans and haitians) are nothing more than selfish leaches that claim to come here for a better life but in reality, they just come here to get a job to make a better life for themselves and their immeadiate family. They have no intention on being patriotic or contributing to society. If it were otherwise, they would have stayed in Mexico or wherever else they came from and try to improve the overall situation there.

Everyone claims that they are such hard workers but they are really not. I mean, not in the sense of fighting for what they believe in. Its like they want everything to be handed to them. And now all of a sudden they want to fight for something in the form of these protests? I say that is pure bullshit!!! Why won't they do that back where they came from??? All they do here is add to the already ever-increasing complacency of society.

They don't attempt in any way to make their situation in their home coutry better. They just say screw it and head for the north.

And just so you all know, I have absolutely NOTHING against spanish people from anywhere in the world. In fact, more than a few of my closest friends are hispanic. (I am black.)
What about the rights of legal immigrants---what's their opinion?

What about the African-American workforce---I think there are enough brothers and sisters willing to do such work but strangely enough I haven't read any survey's regarding this except for the African-Americans who are competing with illegals for the jobs in the Perdue Chicken plants in North Carolina.

Open borders???? How about open schools where some children of illegals are already crowding over-crowded schools with BiLingual or similar programs costing 10 to 15 billion dollars a year in taxes. Should that money be used to improve the American school system?

What is the impact of illegal immigrantion on the African-American community? We are still a vulnerable economic group.

How many times must a store customer repeat themselves b/c the store clerk (where you are paying for a service) doesn't understand you (linguistically) or vice versa?

What happen when a loved one is hit by a car and killed by an illegal who is of course undocumented will they stay at the scene to report the crime or run to their country?

What about carriers of TB an air-born disease or similar maladies they can't report b/c of their fear of being deported?

What new language are you willing to learn to accomodate them for their convience but not necessarily yours?

Why was the late great Ceasar Chavez against illegal immigration ? Was it b/c they depressed wages for legal immigrants and American citizens? Are illegals Union-busters???

If you're not paying taxes of course it's easier to open a business in aN AA community but then again they get the props for being so hard working and industrious.

Most reports indicate that there approximately 11 million illegals in this country already that they know of but I surmise that the population could be higher.

"Me minority too" so I should get the Affirmative Action slots reserved for AA's who have a long history of discrimination in this country.

I always hear that immigrants built this country---but what about our unpaid, raped and discriminated against slave ancestors?

These are just views not necessarily all of mine but just maybe a snack for thought.

I believe in Legal Immigration!
quote:
Originally posted by Connectz:

... absolutely NO sympathy for illegal immigrants (except africans and haitians).

...95% of illegal immigrants in this country (except africans and haitians) are nothing more than selfish leaches ...


When you feel the need to qualify every other sentence with your pet exceptions, then maybe most of what you are saying is simply bullsh!t.
Again folks, IMO, the PEOPLE are not the proper focal point here. If you are having trouble feeding your family - for whatever reason - then who wouldn't do what it takes to care for them? Those of you who attack these folks coming here - you mean to tell me you would rather your children starve, then take a job that is there waiting for you and allows you to feed them? Confused

It is the companies who break the law and hire these undocumented workers - almost always at below minimum (or market) wage rates and with no benefits etc. - that deserve our ire. These companies are looking to maximize profits by exploiting these workers. They know they can't do it to Americans, so they create incentives for folks to risk their lives to come over for the work.

If companies weren't so greedy as to create the economic incentives to attract undocumented workers - then clearly there would be no immigration issue.
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
There is not a person posting on this board who has not exceeded the speed limit or let a parking meter expire at some point in our lives.

We are all "criminals".

We are all "illegals".

When we talk about "criminals" and "illegals", we are talking about ourselves, as well as those 11 million or so other "criminals" and "illegals".

I agree. But, an important aspect of this that we have to take into account is that if they are not in country legally, they are not privy to a number of legal rights that citizens and legal resident aliens are. This is not to their benefit any more than it is to ours. As MBM noted, the corporate infrastructure takes advantage of them, simply because they can.

As I've said before, illegal immigration only helps the upper-twenty-percent of America. It hurts everyone else.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
There is not a person posting on this board who has not exceeded the speed limit or let a parking meter expire at some point in our lives.

We are all "criminals".

We are all "illegals".

When we talk about "criminals" and "illegals", we are talking about ourselves, as well as those 11 million or so other "criminals" and "illegals".

I agree. But, an important aspect of this that we have to take into account is that if they are not in country legally, they are not privy to a number of legal rights that citizens and legal resident aliens are. This is not to their benefit any more than it is to ours. As MBM noted, the corporate infrastructure takes advantage of them, simply because they can.

As I've said before, illegal immigration only helps the upper-twenty-percent of America. It hurts everyone else.

But are these people any less exploited in their own countries than they are here. If they had economic/political justice in their own country, I seriously doubt whether they would risk life and limb to get here.

The real criminals are the international financial institutions, multinational corporations, and the governments that are complicit with them.

I could give a rip about whether they are breaking the law or not. Morally/ethically I do not believe that anyone should be compelled to adhere to unjust laws.

If we want to cease the flow of immigrants to this country, then we need to promote economic/political/social reforms in Latin America instead of supporting structures that facilitate these peoples exploitation by corrupt governments we have up to now supported because it is in the supposed interest of our foreign or economic policy.
Thousands of African-Americans and legal immigrants were made homeless, jobless and displaced by Hurricane Katrina. Many of them would take the jobs these illegals are obtaining in a minutes notice---but I don't see any efforts by good Ol' Uncle Sam to match these citizens to these jobs.

If the military draft was re-instated only citizens and legal immigrants would be called upon and not illegals. This issue would strike very close to home if the son or daughter of an American family was killed in action while your next door illegal immigrant family goes scott-free.

Notable historic figures such as Frederick Douglas, Booker T. Washington, W.E.B DuBois and Marcus Garvey were against LEGAL immigrantion until all American citizen were totally employed. Their opinions were based on the uber-high unemployment rates of AA's and even poor whites of the time and yes even being a legal citizen you could lose your job to outsourcing to foreign nations. In the mid 1980's to early 1990's how many computer company professionals lost their jobs to outsourcing.

Have you ever had to repeat yourself numerous times to a Tech-Support worker stationed in another country when your computer gliches?

I believe in full employment for Americans and legal immigrants first. I'm pro-refugee asylum (temporarily),I'm against illegals and job out-sourcing.
quote:
Originally posted by 4YAINFO:

If the military draft was re-instated only citizens and legal immigrants would be called upon and not illegals. This issue would strike very close to home if the son or daughter of an American family was killed in action while your next door illegal immigrant family goes scott-free.


Just an FYI. I bumped a thread on this issue for you.

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/79160213/m/40170599
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by Connectz:

... absolutely NO sympathy for illegal immigrants (except africans and haitians).

...95% of illegal immigrants in this country (except africans and haitians) are nothing more than selfish leaches ...


When you feel the need to qualify every other sentence with your pet exceptions, then maybe most of what you are saying is simply bullsh!t.


Dude look, I don't have to prove a damn thing to you. I couldn't give two shits about whether or not you think what I am saying is bullshit or not.

Those are my opinions an I am entitled to them. If you do not like them, then thats your perogative. Just don't think you are getting the best of me because you said the bullshit that you did.

I said it once and I will say it again, I don't mind hatians and africans or other black people in general getting here by any means necessary. They have it MUCH WORSE than ANY of the latin countries. So if you want me to be blunt, i'll say it "Fuck all those leeches over there protesting these immigration reform proposals." They want it to stay the way it is so they can get more of there people over here to leech off of the tax dollar coming out of MY paycheck.

If you don't like my views on this subject guess what... I don't give a fuck, plain and simple.

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