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What do you think about the issue of illegal immigration? Are you sympathetic to the immigrants who come here merely looking to put food on their tables and who provide a needed service in our economy? Are you of the belief that they are criminals - breaking the law and should be removed back to their home countries? What should be done about this issue? Are the immigrants really the problem or are the businesses who hire and exploit them the ones? Do you believe that they should be denied public services because of their status?

What do you think?

© MBM

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My sympathies are completely with the immigrants. I am all for opening up of the borders. What we have now are double standards that have nothing to do with justice for poor, oppressed, or exploited peoples. For example:

Businesses as well as individuals can exploit many immigrants because of their status.

Globally, the economic/political practices of the developed nations is complicit in creating depressed situations in the third world.

If we don't like the policies of a nation, immigrants from that country can fairly readily obtain sanctuary (Cuba), otherwise too bad (Haiti).
Slavery
(or doing the jobs Americans won't do)

Our 'peculiar institution' of slavery is over, right? Wrong!

Amazingly we have found yet another underclass to import and exploit - illegal immigrants.

Whether you align yourself with the donkey or the elephant, you will find very few differences regarding illegal immigrants from either. From both animals we hear 'they are doing the jobs Americans won't do'. What is conveniently left out of that mantra is wages. Yes, many Americans won't work for the slave wages that illegals will. It is particularly interesting to note that legal immigrants won't do that work either. Illegal immigrants (often called 'undocumented') are usually hired by the unscrupulous that intentionally exploit them for profit. Agriculture is a traditional offender. Others include: construction, landscaping, hotels, fast food, auto body, etc. There is no end to greedy businesses with zero morals. Many individuals also use these modern-day slaves by hiring them to do gardening and janitorial tasks in the home. These are self-deluded people of questionable character. Mexicans are dying in our deserts because their government tells them to come, our government turns a blind eye to existing laws, and we hire them.

Who is to blame? Ultimately, American citizens have allowed this to happen.

We have listened and believed the hyperbole and outright lies surrounding the issues without question, logic be damned. We have watched as every lame excuse is paraded in front of us, and bought the lot. I've heard time and time again, they're just looking for a better life. Ironically, those arguing for the status quo usually say it. In other words: a better life = slave wages, unsafe working conditions, unhealthy living conditions, etc. Oh, and you better not complain cuz there's 10,000 more just like you who won't. This is better?

A two-step approach would easily resolve these problems.

1. Enforce the penalties associated with hiring, harboring, aiding or abetting illegal immigrants (commonly referred to as Interior Enforcement). These are quite severe: Knowingly employing an illegal is a federal felony.

2. Put the US military on the border until the word gets out that we are aggressively prosecuting employers who hire illegals. When jobs are scarce, they'll stop coming. Many will go home.

Pretty simple huh? You may wonder why your government isn't already implementing this. For whatever reason, and there are many theories, our government wants slaves. There can be no other explanation. Were you aware that many of the same arguments used to defend illegal immigration today were used to defend the importation of Chinese 'coolie labor' for big businesses to keep wages low during the late 19th century? This is generally thought of as a low point in our history. Today, countries all over the world are wisely debating the problems of illegal immigration and taking action, but not the USA. How's that for the moral high ground? Not to be outdone, churches are actively helping illegals to stay in the country. I guess more parishioners = more collections. So let's stop acting as if we are horrified by our historic black slavery, for we have instituted its 21st century equivalent. As history has shown, greed and morality cannot coexist.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
What do you think about the issue of illegal immigration? Are you sympathetic to the immigrants who come here merely looking to put food on their tables and who provide a needed service in our economy? Are you of the belief that they are criminals - breaking the law and should be removed back to their home countries? What should be done about this issue? Are the immigrants really the problem or are the businesses who hire and exploit them the ones? Do you believe that they should be denied public services because of their status?

What do you think?


If it was'nt for the immigrants this country would economically shut down. Politicians can rant and rave all they want, but they know the truth. The majority of immigrants are actually practicing the TRUE free market system: You go where you can get the best deal in ones mind. For all those other people crying about immigrants, they got a problem with it, they can always pick up the slack and start doing the jobs the immigrants are doing. Oh but that would be too "menial" in thier eyes...
L.A. braces for protest, as Bush addresses 'emotional debate'
Pending legislation spurs tens of thousands to march


LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- As thousands of people were expected to protest legislation cracking down on illegal immigrants on Saturday, President Bush said he planned to toughen enforcement of immigration laws.

"America is a nation of immigrants, and we're also a nation of laws," Bush said in his weekly radio address.

"When illegal immigrants know they will be caught and sent home, they will be less likely to break the rules, and our immigration system will be more orderly and secure."

The president acknowledged it was an "emotional debate" but continued "America does not have to choose between being a welcoming society and being a lawful society."

A march against proposed legislation in Congress was set for Saturday through downtown Los Angeles, California, a day after thousands of people staged similar demonstrations in Georgia, Arizona and elsewhere. (Watch crowds take over streets in Phoenix, Arizona -- 0:42)

Next week, the Senate will take up immigration overhaul, with at least four different proposals rattling around the Capitol.

Among the thorny issues the Senate will tackle is Bush's guest worker program for immigrants, which has proven unpopular with many of his fellow Republicans. Senators must also decide whether more than 11 million people already in the United States illegally will be given a chance to earn legal status -- a process critics dismiss as "amnesty."

An immigration bill that passed the House of Representatives in December makes entering the country illegally a felony and calls for construction of 700 miles of security fence along the U.S.-Mexico border.

The House bill would also require employers to verify the immigration status of workers before hiring them, with increased fines for employers who fail to comply. The proposals have angered many Latinos.

"As we debate the immigration issue, we must remember there are hardworking individuals, doing jobs that Americans will not do, who are contributing to the economic vitality of our country," said Bush.

In Phoenix, Arizona, on Friday, police said 20,000 demonstrators marched to the office of Republican Sen. Jon Kyl, co-sponsor of a bill that would give illegal immigrants up to five years to leave the country, The Associated Press reported. The turnout clogged major thoroughfares in what officials said was one of the largest protests in the city's history. People also protested outside Kyl's Tucson office, according to AP.

Protesters "should be pleased that the Senate is probably going to address this in a much more comprehensive way," Kyl told the Tucson Citizen newspaper during a meeting with its editorial board, according to AP.

In Los Angeles, more than 2,700 students from at least eight high schools and junior high schools walked out Friday, district officials told AP. Some carried Mexican flags as they walked down the streets, police cruisers behind them.
Peach State protest

In Georgia, activists said tens of thousands of workers did not show up at their jobs Friday after calls for a work stoppage to protest a bill passed by the Georgia House on Thursday.

That bill, which has yet to gain Senate approval, would deny state services to adults living in the U.S. illegally and impose a 5 percent surcharge on wire transfers from illegal immigrants.

Supporters say the Georgia measure is vital to homeland security and frees up limited state services for people legally entitled to them. Opponents say it unfairly targets workers meeting the demands of some of the state's largest industries.

Teodoro Maus, an organizer of the Georgia protest, estimated as many as 80,000 Hispanics did not show up for work, AP reported. About 200 converged on the steps of the Georgia Capitol, some wrapped in Mexican flags and holding signs reading: "Don't panic, we're Hispanic" and "We have a dream, too."

Jennifer Garcia told AP she was worried what the proposal would do to her family. She said her husband is an illegal Mexican immigrant.

"If they send him back to Mexico, who's going to take care of them and me?" she asked AP. Garcia said of herself and her four children. "This is the United States. We need to come together and be a whole."

On Monday, Bush is to attend a naturalization ceremony in Washington where he will watch new citizens raise their right hands and swear to uphold the laws of the United States, according to The Associated Press. Later in the week, immigration likely will surface as a topic in Cancun, Mexico, where Bush is to meet with Mexico's President Vicente Fox, AP reported.

Bush said the government is trying to end a decades-long practice of releasing illegal immigrants soon after capture because of a lack of space in detention centers.

"We're adding more beds so we can hold the people we catch, and we're reducing the time it takes to send them back home," he said.

The president emphasized that a temporary worker program he's proposed would not provide amnesty to illegal immigrants in the United States. "For the sake of justice and for the sake of border security, I firmly oppose amnesty," Bush said.
Its hard for me to side with he governent when the country was "stolen" from the outset. (so is it really illegal immigration?)The gov't has used minorities for years to do their dirty work so now it seems like it is finally biting them in he ass and they have no clue on how to stop the flood gates. All these lame efforts to keep everyone out just seems to entice more and more to come on in.


catch

Half a million march against US immigration reform



Demonstrators march in Los Angeles, California, to protest of proposed illegal immigration legislation. Half a million protesters paralyzed downtown Los Angeles, demanding amnesty for undocumented immigrants and rejection of a proposed law that would drastically tighten US immigration rules.(AFP/Getty Images/J. Emilio Flores)

LOS ANGELES (AFP) - Half a million protesters paralyzed downtown Los Angeles, demanding amnesty for undocumented immigrants and rejection of a proposed law that would drastically tighten US immigration rules.

A sea of people, many wearing white T-shirts and waving US flags and flags of their nations of origin -- especially Mexico -- flooded the main Los Angeles avenues in a peaceful and sometimes festive protest.

Some marchers blasted trumpets and played Mexican mariachi tunes, while others waved signs and handed out flyers detailing "immigrant rights."

"We have got to stop the approval of anti-immigrant reforms, demand a migration reform that is humane and fair, and not racist," said Javier Rodriguez of the March 25 Coalition, which organized the event.

The Coalition represents dozens of pro-immigrant groups as well as farmer, labor, religious and student groups.

To the cry of "Amnesty for all!" the crowd surged towards the office of Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, where they heard from the mayor and other community leaders.

At the height of the rally there were "at least 500,000 people," said Sarah Faden with the Los Angeles Police Department.

LAPD Sergeant J. Baker was stunned by the size of the crowd. "I have never seen a demonstration this big in years and years here in LA," he said.

One protest organizer, Nativo Lopez of the Mexican American Political Association (MAPA), put the crowd at more than a million spread out across the city.

The rally began soon after President George W. Bush defended his plan to regularize some of the undocumented workers in his weekly radio address.

"America is a nation of immigrants, and we're also a nation of laws. And our immigration laws are in need of reform," said Bush.

Bush wants to regularize the status of illegal workers who "fill jobs that Americans will not do."

His plan "would create a legal way to match willing foreign workers with willing American employers," he said.

Bush spoke as Congress prepares to debate a much stricter immigration reform bill that targets illegal immigrants, who account for 24 percent of farm workers, 17 percent of cleaners and 14 percent of construction workers.

The law would make all undocumented immigrants criminals, require all employers to verify the immigration status of their employees, and construct a wall along much of the US-Mexico border.

The US House of Representatives has already passed the bill. In the Senate, a companion bill was introduced that also would make it a felony to be in the United States without proper immigration documents.

"We are human beings," said Juan Carlos Lopez, a Mexican construction worker at the march who migrated illegally to the United States five years ago. "We want a humane reform to immigration laws without racism that will allow us to work."

There is an estimated 12 million undocumented migrants living in the United States, a large percentage from Latin America, especially Mexico.

About 15 percent of the US population of nearly 300 million is of Hispanic origin, according to census figures. The number includes both recent immigrants and families who have been in the region for centuries.

In the state of California, with a population of nearly 34 million, nearly one-third are of Hispanic origin.

Los Angeles, the largest city on the US west coast, has a population of more than 9.5 million -- 4.2 million of whom are of Hispanic origin, including Mayor Villaraigosa.

Full story here
I am sorry if I offend anyone here but I have absolutely NO sympathy for illegal immigrants (except africans and haitians).

I believe that those illegal immigrants should stop, look at their current environment and demand and fight for a change. It is more citizens than there are government soldiers. Fight for better school systems, better health, better rights, etc. And if the government isn't hearing it, then revolt!

This is why I look at the foreigners who come here and look down upon americans and say we are all lazy. Well, I say to them, well if your people aren't lazy, then why did you leave your country and come here? You could have just stayed there and tried to help spark a revolution.

I believe that illegal immigrants cost us in the end. All the money being used to care for them could be used instead to better our education system. I believe that 95% of illegal immigrants in this country (except africans and haitians) are nothing more than selfish leaches that claim to come here for a better life but in reality, they just come here to get a job to make a better life for themselves and their immeadiate family. They have no intention on being patriotic or contributing to society. If it were otherwise, they would have stayed in Mexico or wherever else they came from and try to improve the overall situation there.

Everyone claims that they are such hard workers but they are really not. I mean, not in the sense of fighting for what they believe in. Its like they want everything to be handed to them. And now all of a sudden they want to fight for something in the form of these protests? I say that is pure bullshit!!! Why won't they do that back where they came from??? All they do here is add to the already ever-increasing complacency of society.

They don't attempt in any way to make their situation in their home coutry better. They just say screw it and head for the north.

And just so you all know, I have absolutely NOTHING against spanish people from anywhere in the world. In fact, more than a few of my closest friends are hispanic. (I am black.)
What about the rights of legal immigrants---what's their opinion?

What about the African-American workforce---I think there are enough brothers and sisters willing to do such work but strangely enough I haven't read any survey's regarding this except for the African-Americans who are competing with illegals for the jobs in the Perdue Chicken plants in North Carolina.

Open borders???? How about open schools where some children of illegals are already crowding over-crowded schools with BiLingual or similar programs costing 10 to 15 billion dollars a year in taxes. Should that money be used to improve the American school system?

What is the impact of illegal immigrantion on the African-American community? We are still a vulnerable economic group.

How many times must a store customer repeat themselves b/c the store clerk (where you are paying for a service) doesn't understand you (linguistically) or vice versa?

What happen when a loved one is hit by a car and killed by an illegal who is of course undocumented will they stay at the scene to report the crime or run to their country?

What about carriers of TB an air-born disease or similar maladies they can't report b/c of their fear of being deported?

What new language are you willing to learn to accomodate them for their convience but not necessarily yours?

Why was the late great Ceasar Chavez against illegal immigration ? Was it b/c they depressed wages for legal immigrants and American citizens? Are illegals Union-busters???

If you're not paying taxes of course it's easier to open a business in aN AA community but then again they get the props for being so hard working and industrious.

Most reports indicate that there approximately 11 million illegals in this country already that they know of but I surmise that the population could be higher.

"Me minority too" so I should get the Affirmative Action slots reserved for AA's who have a long history of discrimination in this country.

I always hear that immigrants built this country---but what about our unpaid, raped and discriminated against slave ancestors?

These are just views not necessarily all of mine but just maybe a snack for thought.

I believe in Legal Immigration!
quote:
Originally posted by Connectz:

... absolutely NO sympathy for illegal immigrants (except africans and haitians).

...95% of illegal immigrants in this country (except africans and haitians) are nothing more than selfish leaches ...


When you feel the need to qualify every other sentence with your pet exceptions, then maybe most of what you are saying is simply bullsh!t.
Again folks, IMO, the PEOPLE are not the proper focal point here. If you are having trouble feeding your family - for whatever reason - then who wouldn't do what it takes to care for them? Those of you who attack these folks coming here - you mean to tell me you would rather your children starve, then take a job that is there waiting for you and allows you to feed them? Confused

It is the companies who break the law and hire these undocumented workers - almost always at below minimum (or market) wage rates and with no benefits etc. - that deserve our ire. These companies are looking to maximize profits by exploiting these workers. They know they can't do it to Americans, so they create incentives for folks to risk their lives to come over for the work.

If companies weren't so greedy as to create the economic incentives to attract undocumented workers - then clearly there would be no immigration issue.
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
There is not a person posting on this board who has not exceeded the speed limit or let a parking meter expire at some point in our lives.

We are all "criminals".

We are all "illegals".

When we talk about "criminals" and "illegals", we are talking about ourselves, as well as those 11 million or so other "criminals" and "illegals".

I agree. But, an important aspect of this that we have to take into account is that if they are not in country legally, they are not privy to a number of legal rights that citizens and legal resident aliens are. This is not to their benefit any more than it is to ours. As MBM noted, the corporate infrastructure takes advantage of them, simply because they can.

As I've said before, illegal immigration only helps the upper-twenty-percent of America. It hurts everyone else.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
There is not a person posting on this board who has not exceeded the speed limit or let a parking meter expire at some point in our lives.

We are all "criminals".

We are all "illegals".

When we talk about "criminals" and "illegals", we are talking about ourselves, as well as those 11 million or so other "criminals" and "illegals".

I agree. But, an important aspect of this that we have to take into account is that if they are not in country legally, they are not privy to a number of legal rights that citizens and legal resident aliens are. This is not to their benefit any more than it is to ours. As MBM noted, the corporate infrastructure takes advantage of them, simply because they can.

As I've said before, illegal immigration only helps the upper-twenty-percent of America. It hurts everyone else.

But are these people any less exploited in their own countries than they are here. If they had economic/political justice in their own country, I seriously doubt whether they would risk life and limb to get here.

The real criminals are the international financial institutions, multinational corporations, and the governments that are complicit with them.

I could give a rip about whether they are breaking the law or not. Morally/ethically I do not believe that anyone should be compelled to adhere to unjust laws.

If we want to cease the flow of immigrants to this country, then we need to promote economic/political/social reforms in Latin America instead of supporting structures that facilitate these peoples exploitation by corrupt governments we have up to now supported because it is in the supposed interest of our foreign or economic policy.
Thousands of African-Americans and legal immigrants were made homeless, jobless and displaced by Hurricane Katrina. Many of them would take the jobs these illegals are obtaining in a minutes notice---but I don't see any efforts by good Ol' Uncle Sam to match these citizens to these jobs.

If the military draft was re-instated only citizens and legal immigrants would be called upon and not illegals. This issue would strike very close to home if the son or daughter of an American family was killed in action while your next door illegal immigrant family goes scott-free.

Notable historic figures such as Frederick Douglas, Booker T. Washington, W.E.B DuBois and Marcus Garvey were against LEGAL immigrantion until all American citizen were totally employed. Their opinions were based on the uber-high unemployment rates of AA's and even poor whites of the time and yes even being a legal citizen you could lose your job to outsourcing to foreign nations. In the mid 1980's to early 1990's how many computer company professionals lost their jobs to outsourcing.

Have you ever had to repeat yourself numerous times to a Tech-Support worker stationed in another country when your computer gliches?

I believe in full employment for Americans and legal immigrants first. I'm pro-refugee asylum (temporarily),I'm against illegals and job out-sourcing.
quote:
Originally posted by 4YAINFO:

If the military draft was re-instated only citizens and legal immigrants would be called upon and not illegals. This issue would strike very close to home if the son or daughter of an American family was killed in action while your next door illegal immigrant family goes scott-free.


Just an FYI. I bumped a thread on this issue for you.

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/79160213/m/40170599
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by Connectz:

... absolutely NO sympathy for illegal immigrants (except africans and haitians).

...95% of illegal immigrants in this country (except africans and haitians) are nothing more than selfish leaches ...


When you feel the need to qualify every other sentence with your pet exceptions, then maybe most of what you are saying is simply bullsh!t.


Dude look, I don't have to prove a damn thing to you. I couldn't give two shits about whether or not you think what I am saying is bullshit or not.

Those are my opinions an I am entitled to them. If you do not like them, then thats your perogative. Just don't think you are getting the best of me because you said the bullshit that you did.

I said it once and I will say it again, I don't mind hatians and africans or other black people in general getting here by any means necessary. They have it MUCH WORSE than ANY of the latin countries. So if you want me to be blunt, i'll say it "Fuck all those leeches over there protesting these immigration reform proposals." They want it to stay the way it is so they can get more of there people over here to leech off of the tax dollar coming out of MY paycheck.

If you don't like my views on this subject guess what... I don't give a fuck, plain and simple.
quote:
Originally posted by umbrarchist:
I think we are being played.

The solution is fix the global economy so immigrants don't need to come here. It means spreading the American Dream world wide. We can't do that by turning the world's natural resources into garbage.

That depreciation I'm constantly talking about.

umbrarchist


Now this I can definately agree with.
quote:
Originally posted by Connectz:

So if you want me to be blunt, i'll say it "Fuck all those leeches over there protesting these immigration reform proposals." They want it to stay the way it is so they can get more of there people over here to leech off of the tax dollar coming out of MY paycheck.

If you don't like my views on this subject guess what... I don't give a fuck, plain and simple.



bs bs bs racist

(Yawn) sleep Typical arrogant gringo racist bullshit. The only leech is you.
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quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
If we want to cease the flow of immigrants to this country, then we need to promote economic/political/social reforms in Latin America instead of supporting structures that facilitate these peoples exploitation by corrupt governments we have up to now supported because it is in the supposed interest of our foreign or economic policy.

That makes sense, but these things are difficult enough to do here on our own soil. I've always thought that our foreign policy should be minimal at best. There are far too many problems to clean up right here. But, as you noted, we support these institutions that are worsening latin America, and that is not in our interests either. America needs to collectively back up, regroup, and get it's own straight. This mess regarding illegal immigration is not all that different from the war in Iraq, or our current tax policies, in the sense that it benefits a select few while the rest of us are generally left to go and hang.
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by Connectz:

So if you want me to be blunt, i'll say it "Fuck all those leeches over there protesting these immigration reform proposals." They want it to stay the way it is so they can get more of there people over here to leech off of the tax dollar coming out of MY paycheck.

If you don't like my views on this subject guess what... I don't give a fuck, plain and simple.



bs bs bs racist

(Yawn) sleep Typical arrogant gringo racist bullshit. The only leech is you.


No holmes. Looks like you are offended that people don't want all these illegal immigrants here in the U.S., in particular, the Mexicans.

While I will admit that maybe my original statement was biased in regards to haitians and africans, it does not negate what I said.

And one more thing essay, I am no "gringo", I am black. So, you already know what I am going to tell you what can do with your "typical racist gringo" statement.

I have absolultely NO sympathy for ANY illegal alien in this country.

There, is that better chivato?
quote:
Originally posted by Connectz:

I am no "gringo", I am black.


Saying that black gringos are not gringos is like saying that black latinos are not latinos.

BTW, the term "gringo" is not necessarily pejoritive. That is a huge misconception on the part of gringos. It is primarily descriptive, and only aquires a pejoritive meaning (as in "Ugly American") by the context in which it is used.

Could you tell from the context that I meant it pejoratively?
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quote:
Originally posted by tmonster:

Anyone feel like thinking outside the box and asking why can't we help fix their country so they dont have to come here?


What do you see as America's incentive to do that? There is a great incentive for those in power to keep things as they are. They're getting fat off the curernt arrangement. sck
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by tmonster:

Anyone feel like thinking outside the box and asking why can't we help fix their country so they dont have to come here?


What do you see as America's incentive to do that? There is a great incentive for those in power to keep things as they are. They're getting fat off the curernt arrangement. sck


We don't run the School of the Americas (SOA--"School Of Assassins") for nothing...

http://www.soaw.org
Wow!

What is the SOA?

The School of the Americas (SOA), in 2001 renamed the "Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation," is a combat training school for Latin American soldiers, located at Fort Benning, Georgia.

Initially established in Panama in 1946, it was kicked out of that country in 1984 under the terms of the Panama Canal Treaty. Former Panamanian President, Jorge Illueca, stated that the School of the Americas was the "biggest base for destabilization in Latin America." The SOA, frequently dubbed the "School of Assassins," has left a trail of blood and suffering in every country where its graduates have returned.

Over its 59 years, the SOA has trained over 60,000 Latin American soldiers in counterinsurgency techniques, sniper training, commando and psychological warfare, military intelligence and interrogation tactics. These graduates have consistently used their skills to wage a war against their own people. Among those targeted by SOA graduates are educators, union organizers, religious workers, student leaders, and others who work for the rights of the poor. Hundreds of thousands of Latin Americans have been tortured, raped, assassinated, "disappeared," massacred, and forced into refugee by those trained at the School of Assassins.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Wow!

What is the SOA?

The School of the Americas (SOA), in 2001 renamed the "Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation," is a combat training school for Latin American soldiers, located at Fort Benning, Georgia.

Initially established in Panama in 1946, it was kicked out of that country in 1984 under the terms of the Panama Canal Treaty. Former Panamanian President, Jorge Illueca, stated that the School of the Americas was the "biggest base for destabilization in Latin America." The SOA, frequently dubbed the "School of Assassins," has left a trail of blood and suffering in every country where its graduates have returned.

Over its 59 years, the SOA has trained over 60,000 Latin American soldiers in counterinsurgency techniques, sniper training, commando and psychological warfare, military intelligence and interrogation tactics. These graduates have consistently used their skills to wage a war against their own people. Among those targeted by SOA graduates are educators, union organizers, religious workers, student leaders, and others who work for the rights of the poor. Hundreds of thousands of Latin Americans have been tortured, raped, assassinated, "disappeared," massacred, and forced into refugee by those trained at the School of Assassins.


I have a thread here about some recient victories in the struggle against the SOA.

¡No Mas!

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/79160213/m/9751002783
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by tmonster:

Anyone feel like thinking outside the box and asking why can't we help fix their country so they dont have to come here?


What do you see as America's incentive to do that? There is a great incentive for those in power to keep things as they are. They're getting fat off the curernt arrangement. sck


ehhh, you walked right into my trap
That is the whole point, the tail is wagging the dog. Why are Black Americans and white workers showing anymous to mexican migrants when our gubment has set up this dynamic to favor corporations(SOA as a minute example). We are falling for the okie doke big time, workers should always unite. Workers are the country.
The Hutchinson Report: Illegal Immigration Creates Ground Rung of Jobs That're ˜For Latinos Only'

Date: Friday, April 07, 2006
By: Earl Ofari Hutchinson, Special to BlackAmericaWeb.com




The young black man hesitated as he stood outside the small furniture manufacturing shop in South Los Angeles. He was dressed neatly, and he was well groomed. He eyed the building warily. The sign on the narrow glass door, in English and Spanish, read "Help Wanted" and trabajo aqui. The opening was for a shop helper, mostly to sweep up and do routine clean up and maintenance. It did not require any education or special skill. It paid minimum wage, as did the thousands of shops that dotted the area. The company had no employee health care plan or other benefits.

After a moment, he went in and politely asked for an application. The petite receptionist, a young Latina, handed him an application form, with an airy nonchalance. She curtly suggested that he fill it out and bring it back. When he asked if there would be an interview, she haltingly said only if there was a position open. The young man looked perplexed, glanced at the "Help Wanted" sign, politely thanked her and left.

A couple of hours later, two other young Latinos came in to apply. One was immediately hired. The other was told that another helper job might open up within the next few days.

The workers in the shop, as they were in nearly all the other shops in the area, were Latinos, a large percentage of whom were illegal immigrants. There were no other blacks, whites or even English speaking, native-born Latino workers in the plant or at few of the other shops in the area.

This is not a fictional story. I personally witnessed the scene at the company involving the black job seeker. Anti-illegal immigration activists say that the experience of the young black job seeker has played out thousands of times at restaurants, hotels, on farms and at manufacturing plants nationally, and that this is a major reason so many young black males are unemployed, join gangs, deal drugs and pack America's jails.

Congress will hammer out a comprehensive immigration reform law. But it won't answer this question: Do the estimated 10 to 12 million illegal immigrants in the country take jobs from American citizens, especially the bottom-rung American workers -- the young, the poor and, more often than not, African-American workers?

What if the young black job seeker, or any other American looking for work in a low-end manufacturing plant or a restaurant in Los Angeles, were offered that job which probably pays minimum wage and doesn't offer any benefits or job security? Would he take it?

Maybe yes, maybe no.

It's certainly hard to imagine that a young black from South Los Angeles, South Chicago or Harlem -- not to mention a native-born, young white or Latino -- going out to the fields to pick strawberries for 10 to 12 hours a day in the hot sun at minimum or even sub-minimum wages. Or, that they'd take a job at a car wash or bus dishes in a restaurant. But what if the farm contractors, car wash owners and manufacturers paid a living wage and provided benefits? It might be a different story -- at least for some young people in Los Angeles.

Then there's the regional factor. There is some evidence that young American workers will work jobs in the South and the Midwest -- jobs that have long been designated as those "that only illegal immigrants will take" -- that is, if those jobs were offered to them. But when employers give the quick brush-off to young blacks and other young American workers that are willing to take lower-end jobs, they send the not-so-subtle message that they are not wanted or welcome.

This is a powerful disincentive for them to pursue work in these taboo areas of the job market. The end result is that an entire category of jobs at the ground rung of American industry is clearly marked "Latino only."

The fight over jobs and illegal immigration came at the worst possible time for the urban poor. Shrinking federal and state budgets for job training and creation programs, industry downsizing and escalating crime and violence in inner city neighborhoods made banks and corporations even more reluctant to invest in these communities, and that made the job situation even worse.

The young black in Los Angeles and other cities that anti-illegal immigration opponents cite as proof that illegal immigration is ruinous for the economy and the urban poor may or may not have lost out in his job hunt to an illegal immigrant. But he also might have lost out in his job search because of discrimination, poor education, government budget slashes and the flight of manufacturers to other countries. That is no excuse not to ensure that American workers have the right to work in any and all industries.

That would do much to calm the fury of many Americans who worry that illegal immigration sledgehammers at least some American workers. Congress and the Bush Administration must not ignore that worry.

---

Earl Ofari Hutchinson is a political analyst and social issues commentator. His column appears in The State of Black America channel every Friday.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

The young black in Los Angeles and other cities that anti-illegal immigration opponents cite as proof that illegal immigration is ruinous for the economy and the urban poor may or may not have lost out in his job hunt to an illegal immigrant.


The article presents the issue - correctly - from the standpoint of the employer discriminating against the young black man, then somehow "jumps the fence" to blame "illegal immigration". Confused No undocumented worker took the black man's job. The _employer_ prevented that young man from working. The employer breaks the law by hiring the undocumented worker. The employer breaks labor laws in the way that they hire and employ these workers.

There is no "illegal immigration" problem. There is an ILLEGAL EMPLOYMENT problem!
the below post is very similar to my feelings on this issue.
Now, do know I have enjoyed many warm friendships with people who have immigranted here,but I quickly add;they all arrived here legally and speaking ENGLISH,
They also arrived without a "tude", demanding a handout. I ask; are Mexicans and their supporters also going to bat for the unfair treatment of would be Haitian immigrants?

The explanation we have been given for summarily returning them to Haiti as we at the same time roll out the red, white and blue carpet for Cubans is the latter have to be pitied and coddled. They are feeling oppression and communism whereas Haitians are fleeing poverty and we the U. S .of A cannot accommodate their poverty. I ask therefore what are Mexicans fleeing? Roll Eyes



MR. PRESIDENT, I'M HEADED TO MEXICO


Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.

I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.

So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.
2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.
3. All government forms need to be printed in English.
4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.
5. Schools need to include classes on American culture
and history.
6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.
7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.
8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.
9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.
10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English.
11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don t enforce any labor laws or tax laws.
13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely. However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.

Thank you so much for your kind help.

Sincerely,
David M. B______
NewsWithViews.com
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

And if there hadn't been an immigrant so readily available to take that job, do you think the young Black male would have gotten it?


1) Who knows. I guess that would depend on his qualifications and the proclivity of the owner to hire a young black man. What do you think?

2) Why do you think that immigrants have been so readily available?

quote:
Or that the job would have gone unfilled?


Capitalism is built on maximizing revenue and minimizing costs. Companies stretch the law as far as they can to accomplish this. Even if every single undocumented worker from Mexico was unlawfully employed, there are far more than 11 million jobs in the U.S. Those companies are hiring someone, somehow.

quote:
Or that there would have been no such company, hence no job available?


I'm not sure how you can speculate about this. Are you trying to infer that without the undocumented labor that there would be no company? Be assured that if there is market demand, that there will be companies there to meet it.
do you think this population will form coalitionas with the black community. Do you think their agenda is to make america a fair and just place for all, or are they just opportunist who will look out for their own intrest. I mean when have Latino, Asians, Arabs, or any other group come to our aid. Better yet, out of all the other minority groups in this country how many of them spend one dime with black people. All I see is mostly these groups try to take advantage of our position in this society to better themselves and their people to the detriment of us.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
do you think this population will form coalitionas with the black community. Do you think their agenda is to make america a fair and just place for all, or are they just opportunist who will look out for their own intrest. I mean when have Latino, Asians, Arabs, or any other group come to our aid. Better yet, out of all the other minority groups in this country how many of them spend one dime with black people. All I see is mostly these groups try to take advantage of our position in this society to better themselves and their people to the detriment of us.
GIVE US OUR Reparations THEN if all these tax dollars are going to help MEXICO!!
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:

do you think this population will form coalitionas with the black community.


Coalitions are about securing interests that cannot be otherwise won. Do you presume that Mexican Americans would have some conceptual opposition to aligning with African Americans if there was mutual benefit in it? Why?

quote:
Do you think their agenda is to make america a fair and just place for all, or are they just opportunist who will look out for their own intrest.


I believe that their interest are no more or less self-centered than ours.

quote:
I mean when have Latino, Asians, Arabs, or any other group come to our aid.


Probably about as often as we have come to their's.

quote:
All I see is mostly these groups try to take advantage of our position in this society to better themselves and their people to the detriment of us.


How can any other minority group "take advantage" of our position? Please explain this.
quote:
Originally posted by mirahjay:

9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.


I've never been to Mexico, but I have seen how people drive in Colombia first hand.

ek

I'm all for requiring that all immigrants, whether documented or undocumented, study the driver's manual, take the test, and get a drivers license.

I can't imagine why so many people want to exempt undocumented immigrants from the requirement of obtaining a valid drivers license.

That's just plain crazy!

bang
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:

I understand what coalitions are,my question is?Are the members of the Hispanic or other minority organizations actively seeking to make coalitions with the African American Community?


I don't know the answer to your question and I am at a loss to see what that has to do with their future capacity to align with us or anyone else. Perhaps the better question is have African Americans - in any meaningful way - reached out to Latinos in an effort to create meaningful political alliances? We're a bit more entrenched in the American system. Shouldn't we be the ones reaching out to them?
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
1) Who knows. I guess that would depend on his qualifications and the proclivity of the owner to hire a young black man. What do you think?

2) Why do you think that immigrants have been so readily available?


1) Well, I didn't ask you if you knew, I asked you what you thought. And yes I do think the young Black male would have gotten the job.

2) Perhaps because so many of them cross the border illegally to get here. sck

quote:
Capitalism is built on maximizing revenue and minimizing costs. Companies stretch the law as far as they can to accomplish this. Even if every single undocumented worker from Mexico was unlawfully employed, there are far more than 11 million jobs in the U.S. Those companies are hiring someone, somehow.


Exactly.

quote:
I'm not sure how you can speculate about this. Are you trying to infer that without the undocumented labor that there would be no company? Be assured that if there is market demand, that there will be companies there to meet it.


No, I was asking you if you thought that was a possibility. Personally, I'd tend to think there would be a company, it would hire "someone, somehow", even if they had to pay a living wage to someone like the young, Black male who was ultimately turned down for the job that was immediately given to the non-English-speaking Mexican.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

2) Perhaps because so many of them cross the border illegally to get here. sck


Out of curiosity, why do you think there are so many Mexican immigrants in the U.S.? Why haven't more gone to, say, Venezuela or further South into South America where there wouldn't be such an large language barrier to contend with?
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

2) Perhaps because so many of them cross the border illegally to get here. sck


Out of curiosity, why do you think there are so many Mexican immigrants in the U.S.? Why haven't more gone to, say, Venezuela or further South into South America where there wouldn't be such an large language barrier to contend with?


Economics! why go from one poor country to another.
ok a lot of illegal immigrants come from a poor country (Mexico) come do jobs low skilled and skilled cheaper than market rate. At the same time African Americans are increasingly out of work.But the African Americans suppose to reach out and not only help the illegal immigrants here, but open the door for more to come. While many cities African American unemployment is 50% I will be dam if I gonna help cut my own throat.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
ok a lot of illegal immigrants come from a poor country (Mexico) come do jobs low skilled and skilled cheaper than market rate. At the same time African Americans are increasingly out of work.But the African Americans suppose to reach out and not only help the illegal immigrants here, but open the door for more to come. While many cities African American unemployment is 50% I will be dam if I gonna help cut my own throat.

LOL at helping someone cut your own throat. You should not be so easily threatened by immigrants. Remember that "playing the victim card" that Zakar spoke against in the other thread? Now, it's the immigrants fault that we can't get a job?

Well, we're in the same boat as Whites. Whites are dealing with outsourcing just like anyone else. The job issue is bigger than immigration reform.
Most of the jobs in America are service oriented. So that means if this immigration bill hits growing young black people will be a PERMANENT UNDERCLASS lost in America. With the low scale jobs being immigrant friendly it will be much harder to get those service jobs for young black people.

As you see the "young black person" has already been stigmatized and stereotyped as being rude, time consuming, lazy, etc to engage with. That happen first. Greater society thought this was FUNNY and ACCEPTED this as a TRUTH. I thought it was sad and not funny at all. They even did movies and television programs based on this behavior of 'young black people' in the service industry.

Next those same employers TESTED out immigrant labor. Everybody on the job said wow these immigrants work like no tommorrow and they cheap. We NEED more of these type of workers. General society said wow, I can eat cheap, build cheaply, clean cheaply and the service is fast. I dont have to see one of those 'black' faces with attitude anymore. They work the backend while 'blacks' work the front end where 'English' is required.

Now most of these immigrants have been in America long enough and developed English through 'free' ESL programs and now are ready for a PROMOTION in American society. That is where we are at.

Once Congress allow immigrant a status other than illegal that will open the flood gates for more immigration followed by demanding status. It will repeat keep repeating over and over.

This is OUR government fault. Bush might like this because immigrants can be used to serve in Iraq for ie green card in which young black people are reported to not be signing up readily.

I am sorry for growing young black people. We as a community should have did more. Well I am doing some "free" work along this line to address situations like this in my community. Like someone mention here we have to develop our own "black" model of work and success instead of following white gods. Hopefully I will bear fruit.

I knew this was going to happen sooner or later and explode in all our faces. As a fool I am glad I kept my eye on this situation and not follow the norms of greater society.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Out of curiosity, why do you think there are so many Mexican immigrants in the U.S.? Why haven't more gone to, say, Venezuela or further South into South America where there wouldn't be such an large language barrier to contend with?


You've got to be kidding, right? Confused

Why does any immigrant want to come to The Land of the Free?? Confused
I dont hate immigrants, not at all, I hate the policy that produces the environment for this influx to occur. We do not have a border to flow back and forth accross, we have been disconnected from our people. But being outcast in this system of white supremacy, one has to be out of their mind not to see the connection between high illegal immigrant migration and high unemployment and underemployment of African people. No one that continues to suggest we are being racist by wanting to make sure we as a people survive. where are these people gonna live , in our communities, not the white community, who will lose housing , not white people, who will lose social services, educational benifits who will be serverly impacted by the growning numbers of people coming to this country illegally. There wouldnt be any arguement if they were legal or fleeing genocide or oppression. they simply come from a poorer country that is using this vehicle to get rid of its underclass by sending them here to the US. No one ever want to answe the question. How is this affecting the lives of African people. Instead of addressing that, they divert the quetion to lets not support the oppression of other minorities when they willingly come here to be exploited, so that tells you off the break they are not oppressed
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

Why does any immigrant want to come to The Land of the Free?? Confused


How exactly are you "free" ER? If you don't have the bank account there are all told things that you simply cannot do in this country. Beyond that, someone got arrested recently because of the attached bumper sticker. Are you free to say what you want? Your phones and emails can be tapped. Your house can be searched without a warrant. All of your private bank and financial records can be taken - such that every penny you spend can be reviewed by the government. Beyond that, as a black women, there are all sorts of things that you still cannot do and places you cannot go.

How exactly are you free? Confused



Immigrants are "free" to come here to be exploited!
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:

I just want someone to address one question: How does the issue of illegal immigration of cheap labor affect the African American community, could someone please address this?????


quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Yemaya:

How do people who come here without being born here and have not gone through the proper procedures to achieve citizenship here, affect African Americans?


Hiring undocumented workers depresses wages and takes jobs away from the poor/working class - of which African Americans represent a higher percentage than our share of the over-all population. To be clear, the workers themselves don't do this, the companies who break the law and hire them do. The companies exploit the workers by paying them sub minimum wage rates - often in unsafe/unhealthy conditions and with no benefits. These companies also exploit African Americans when employing these workers - by potentially preventing us from taking those jobs.

On the other hand, as Minister Farrakhan is currently doing, if we are able to create any kind of meaningful alliance with Latinos, there are considerable political benefits to be won. We certainly have more in common than not.
Brother - you feign total ignorance about what exploitation is and who is doing it. You would rather blame a poor Mexican immigrant who has less than you, then be smart and focus your attention on the real problem.

That's both disappointing, but also suggests a disingenuousness about your pro-black stance. It would seem that you would be much more interested in who is really hurting you so as to maximize the impact of your energy.

If I throw a ball and hit you with it. Are you going to be mad at me or at the ball? Continuing to talk about "illegal immigrants" is talking about the ball. td6
WHERE DID I BLAME THE IMMIGRANT.Because im not gong hoe about jumping on a Mexican bandwagon, im against them. I think about the intrest of African people thats my primary concern, everyone else seems to be looking out for their people. Why in the hell do we always put ourselves in a postion to be the ones without food on our plates. No one put a gun to any of these immigrants head and forced them to come across the border the willingly do so but we suppose to accept that as being for oppressed people.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:

Illegal immigration is displacing African Americans, but we should form alliances with them to make sure they continue to do so?


In your opinion, do African Americans have more in common with the rich white business owners who make money off of wages being low and having undocumented workers that they pay sub minimum wages to OR the Mexicans who are forced to work 15 hours a day in 100 degree heat to make $30? Do we have more in common with the person who oppresses us both or do we have more in common with each other?
since you will never answer the question i asked. No we dont have anything in common with rich whites and we dont have anything in common with illegal immigrants we are in a distinct situation here in this country. Like ive said many times the mexicans ,el salvadorians and others in latin america with large african populations push the blacks to the bottom of the heap and the lighterskinned are in power. So you expect me to believe these people will come across the border and all of a sudden see us as brothers in struggle, when in fact they never included us in their agenda or invite our input on these issues. Seems to me they are thinking about thier own group intrest and so should we
IMO
The illegal immigration is a matter of greed. And, its excepted by politican as being OK. How many politicans had to withdraw from nomination because they employed an illegal immigrant as a Nanny or Gardner? Greed made 9/11 possible. Why are the Mexican borders NOT locked down to keep illegal aliens out? Is it possible we could also keep out terrorist too b y locking down the Mexcican borders? GREED!!

After 9/11, I don't understand the debate. We need to tighten up the borders as well as the immigration bureau. We should know who is in our country and where they reside if they are not a citzen of this great country. Our current system is a joke. A perfect example of this is seen in the movie "15 Minutes."

We should give the illegal aliens who are currently residing here a chance to become citzens. Beef up the fight against illegal aliens as they did in 1954 with "Operation Wetback" that was successful. The government was so successful, the illegal aliens were 2,000,000 and in time reduced to 200,000 in Cesear Chavez hay-day of the 70's.

Hopefully, GREED will not do us in!!
quote:
Originally posted by Diamond:
IMO
The illegal immigration is a matter of greed. And, its excepted by politican as being OK. How many politicans had to withdraw from nomination because they employed an illegal immigrant as a Nanny or Gardner? Greed made 9/11 possible. Why are the Mexican borders NOT locked down to keep illegal aliens out? Is it possible we could also keep out terrorist too b y locking down the Mexcican borders? GREED!!

After 9/11, I don't understand the debate. We need to tighten up the borders as well as the immigration bureau. We should know who is in our country and where they reside if they are not a citzen of this great country. Our current system is a joke. A perfect example of this is seen in the movie "15 Minutes."

We should give the illegal aliens who are currently residing here a chance to become citzens. Beef up the fight against illegal aliens as they did in 1954 with "Operation Wetback" that was successful. The government was so successful, the illegal aliens were 2,000,000 and in time reduced to 200,000 in Cesear Chavez hay-day of the 70's.

Hopefully, GREED will not do us in!!


Why should we close the border? What the hell is wrong with people wanting a better life for thmeselves and their families?

The problem is corporations who try to keep costs down and profits up by attracting immigrants over the border to work near slave labor so the bosses can stay rich. The people we should be pitching a bitch at are the corporations.

But, that's media hegemony for you. The corporate media can blame the victim and keep the powerful people out of trouble, and the American sheeple follow lock-step.

Personally, I don't have a problem with immigrants. I have a problem with Neoliberal corporations conducting slave labor.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:

WHERE DID I BLAME THE IMMIGRANT.


Talking about "illegal immigration" is buying squarely into the hype about this issue. It is the spin that white supremacy puts on their exploitation.

There is no illegal immigration issue. There is, however, an illegal hiring issue.


Speaking of, have you noticed how many Black people parrot lines of White racists when it comes to the issue of immigration?

I sense that for a lot of Black people, as much as we complain about racism, many of us are just as racist. I sense that a lot of Black people are upset about immigration because we are afraid of being replaced as the "Biggest Minority" (read: House Nigger).
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
How exactly are you free? Confused


Let's ask a Continental African about freedom and I'll get back to you.

You insult my intelligence with such a question, MBM. Frown

giveup


Sorry you insult so easily. I'm sure many of us would find plenty of places in Africa - including Ghana and Kenya, to be much more in keeping with our sense of personal freedom and liberty.

Don't confuse getting a paycheck with being "free". nono
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
How exactly are you free? Confused


Let's ask a Continental African about freedom and I'll get back to you.

You insult my intelligence with such a question, MBM. Frown

giveup


Sorry you insult so easily. I'm sure many of us would find plenty of places in Africa - including Ghana and Kenya, to be much more in keeping with our sense of personal freedom and liberty.

Don't confuse getting a paycheck with being "free". nono


This is a "free" country alright, IF YOU'RE RICH.

ER,
Let's ask the 40 million Americans with no health care, the 50 million with inadequate health care, the 5 million unemployed, the growing number being layed off due to Outsourcing, the milions filing for bankruptcy in the past 6 years and the coming 4 years and millions upon millions of underpaid workers how "free" they are.
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
ER,
Let's ask the 40 million Americans with no health care, the 50 million with inadequate health care, the 5 million unemployed, the growing number being layed off due to Outsourcing, the milions filing for bankruptcy in the past 6 years and the coming 4 years and millions upon millions of underpaid workers how "free" they are.


No, EP ... let's ask people who get shot in the face for typing things like you just said what is freedom. Or ask those who have to sit and watch their mothers or sisters get raped and then get their hands chopped off just for being in a certain country at the wrong place at the wrong time what is freedom. Or if that's too difficult, go to a gravesite in Zimbabwe and dig up and ask one of the dead who demonstrated for for freedom what freedom is.

And stop asking me to believe that freedom only has to do with how much money one has. Funny how so much is taken for granted when just trying to prove a ridiculous point. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
No, EP ... let's ask people who get shot in the face for typing things like you just said what is freedom.


Yes, in Capitalist dictatorships like Singapore, Colombia, Peru, Chile, Argentina, Saudia Arabia, Croatia and Cambodia.

quote:
Or ask those who have to sit and watch their mothers or sisters get raped and then get their hands chopped off just for being in a certain country at the wrong place at the wrong time what is freedom. Or if that's too difficult, go to a gravesite in Zimbabwe and dig up and ask one of the dead who demonstrated for for freedom what freedom is.


Zimbabwe is a proto-Fascist Neoliberal dictatorship BACKED BY THE US GOVERNMENT, I might add. Before you go on and on about dictatorships, go read up on your beloved gub'ment's relationship with them. Our military-industrial complex trained guerilla fighters on US military bases to murder Socialist leaders like Patrice Lumumba (in my avatar) and Kwame Nkrumah and supported Fascist Capitalist dictators like Robert Mugabe and Mobutu Sese-Seko.

Under Clinton, our military ran to aid Neo-Fascist Croatia in thier campaign against Serbia.

quote:
And stop asking me to believe that freedom only has to do with how much money one has. Funny how so much is taken for granted when just trying to prove a ridiculous point. Roll Eyes


While we speak, our government trains death squads for the Coca-Cola company to murder union leaders in Colombia. Yeah, we sure support "freedom" alright. Freedom from people like Hugo Chavez and support for people like Pinochet and Noriega.

Need I bring up the domestic history of labor union-busting?
We are in a time in history where we are gonna have to take some bold strategic moves to secure a decent future for our children. It is getting tougher and tougher out here for our children to make it, there so many symptoms that has to be addressed we would be foolish to take for granted othergroups williness to make alliances with us when they are gonna fight over the same crumbs we been fighting all the years to get. If we dont take self intrest seriously the consequences will be drastic. I same form an independent party anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
We are in a time in history where we are gonna have to take some bold strategic moves to secure a decent future for our children. It is getting tougher and tougher out here for our children to make it, there so many symptoms that has to be addressed we would be foolish to take for granted othergroups williness to make alliances with us when they are gonna fight over the same crumbs we been fighting all the years to get. If we dont take self intrest seriously the consequences will be drastic. I same form an independent party anyway.


Dude, you're seriously falling for the okie-doke.

You're falling for one the classical tactics of Fascism: Fearmongering of A Scapegoat Figure.

http://www.favreau.info/misc/14-points-fascism.php

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

In this case: immigrants.

I fail to see how immigrants pose a threat to African-Americans. Even if they do, the fault is not with people coming to this country to provide a better life for their families, it is with businesses attracting them over here to get cheap slave labor.
Dude, your missing the point. I know the immigrants are not the blame, I know American Imperialism drives this, but dude im talking about reality. Im talking about the fact that because of this no matter who is the blame. African americans will lose, thats reality. The fact of the matter is the Hispanic community are not going to splitt power with us. They are gonna grab what they can grab. So regardless who;s the blame,the reality is we are gonna be the one lose.I just want us to realize this.Now question is really, What are we gonna do as African people in America to ensure our survial?
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
Dude, your missing the point. I know the immigrants are not the blame, I know American Imperialism drives this, but dude im talking about reality. Im talking about the fact that because of this no matter who is the blame. African americans will lose, thats reality. The fact of the matter is the Hispanic community are not going to splitt power with us. They are gonna grab what they can grab. So regardless who;s the blame,the reality is we are gonna be the one lose.I just want us to realize this.Now question is really, What are we gonna do as African people in America to ensure our survial?


You say they are "grabbing power". Have you stopped to consider why that is? THEY ORGANIZE. THEY CAN GET TOGETHER AS A PEOPLE AND UNITE.

Hispanics who come to this country came from not having a lot and don't mind sharing row houses with 10 other families and rolling up their sleeves and sacrificing luxuries to achieve a future goal. The same can't be said for African-Americans because we have been in this country so long that we have taken on many of White Americans' negative traits. We don't have a lot either, but we have the White Man's attitude. We feel entitled as entrenched Americans that we should have certain things and don't feel obligated to sacrifice luxury and leisure to work together. When some of us do get money, we go "Fuck the rest y'all" and move into White suburban neighborhoods and leave behind the rest of the community to sink or swim and adopt an "Everyone should pull themselves up by their own bootstraps" mentality (just look at Black Republicans).

We may talk Black, but when we get money, we act "White". We should take some notes on the communal effort of Hispanics and Asian-Americans.


Anyways, you were saying they won't share power. And likewise, if we obtain power, will we share it with them? If not, then we have no room to complain.


This is why I'm a Pan-Minorityist. I'm sick of all this bullshit where Minorities are fighting each other jocking for House Nigger status (everybody wants to be the new rich Minority getting pats on the head from White people). It's a fucking Race to the Bottom. Why don't we all work together to obtain economic, political and social power so we run this country for us instead of competing for employment from White employers? All this competing for wage slavery shit is sickening.
Thats what im saying we must unite with ourselves.I know what power is dude, come on thats why im saying what im saying.You may think im nieve but im talking about reality. Im talking how it is in the streets.Unless we teach our African children to love their African selves its over. Pan Minoritist.Whats that? how can we be Pan Minoritist by ourselves? If every other group is united with their group spending their money with their group, why in the hell would we spend ours with everyone else? doesnt make sense thats why we suffer. We want to be accepted by everyone else adn neglect our ownselves. Call it what you want im Pan Africanist Period.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:

Im talking how it is in the streets.Unless we teach our African children to love their African selves its over.


quote:
Call it what you want im Pan Africanist Period.


If you are unwilling to make black black alliances, then perhaps you should refer to yourself not as African, but as African American, or follow JWC and call yourself an African American American.

Oh, what the hell...why not just call yourself an African American American American American American.

bang

quote:
about black brown Alliances.


But what about black black alliances?

You can be a Pan African American American American American American, too.

Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
I consider all people of african decent African even if they dont. But where did i not say i would support the upliftment of all African people around the world? I think your putting words in my mouth for some reason?



Africans, Haitians, and Afrolatinos are marching along side Asians and other Latinos in demanding Immigration Justice.

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/79160213/m/7701086093

Don't expect the media to focus on it, though.

Do you stand with them or against them?
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
I consider all people of african decent African even if they dont. But where did i not say i would support the upliftment of all African people around the world? I think your putting words in my mouth for some reason?



Africans, Haitians, and Afrolatinos are marching along side Asians and other Latinos in demanding Immigration Justice.

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/79160213/m/7701086093

Don't expect the media to focus on it, though.

Do you stand with them or against them?


As a Pan-Minorityist, I'd even go as far to say that we should also march with Whites sympathetic to our cause.
The bottom line is that illegal immigration; defined as entering this country by subverting the laws set in place to regulate immigration, is wrong. I can see if people were being oppressed and came over as refugees. There are laws governing this.
I wonder what the laws are in other countries regarding people who come into a nation outside of legal chanels?
Multinational corporations who want cheap labor and various governments are in cohorts to make a ton of money. The affect of this is the displacement of people who want to work say starter jobs and the breakdown of unions. If the laws regarding the hiring of people who are illegally in the U.S. were to be enforced, it will be the small businesses who would largely be affected. Those who can't move their businesses and operations offshore.

And on this question of uniting with latinos, I will just say this: "There can be no [black-latino unity or] black-white unity until there is some black unity." -Malcolm X

That's my piece....
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
yeah lets look at the percentage of Africans who are allowed in compared to everyone else. I see what you doing white guy


I guess that it would be too much to expect for you to give a straight answer as to whether you would be willing to consider a black black alliance with Africans, Haitians, and Afrolatinos struggling and marching for immigration justice.

bang

Oh, well...

giveup
all the africans from all of over the world make up probably 5% of all the immigrants in this country. Plus we are talking about people comming here illegally not fleeing oppression but simply to get a head. Of course i support my people from where ever they are from. I just want my people to get treated the same way everyone else who immigrates to this country gets treated. How many haitians are allowed to just walk across the borders they are stopped in the water and turned around with no provisions, these cats coming across the border got people giving the provisions and everything. So sure if legal immmigration is fair across the board for all people i am with it.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

2) Perhaps because so many of them cross the border illegally to get here. sck


Out of curiosity, why do you think there are so many Mexican immigrants in the U.S.? Why haven't more gone to, say, Venezuela or further South into South America where there wouldn't be such an large language barrier to contend with?


Because an open borders policy is necessary for the corrupt criminals running Mexico's gov't to stay in power:

That's why the gov't south of the border always will oppose any attempt at 1) border security 2) enforcement of illegal immigration laws particularly criminals and business owners hiring and 3) Whatever is to be done about the 12 million here.

Basically if a pipe breaks in your house do you first Shut off the water (border security) or do you first start mopping up the floor.

Since everyone in Congress says they really want border security but can't get a bill thru Congress that does just that: It'll probably be another amnesty and no border security in reality just like 1986

Same argument Same problem and probably same thing will occur unless pressure is put on both Democrats and Republicans.

There are days when I think you could pick 535 people at random and they couldn't screw up more then the current Congressional Aristocracy.
quote:
Originally posted by ZAKAR:
all the africans from all of over the world make up probably 5% of all the immigrants in this country. Plus we are talking about people comming here illegally not fleeing oppression but simply to get a head. Of course i support my people from where ever they are from. I just want my people to get treated the same way everyone else who immigrates to this country gets treated. How many haitians are allowed to just walk across the borders they are stopped in the water and turned around with no provisions, these cats coming across the border got people giving the provisions and everything. So sure if legal immmigration is fair across the board for all people i am with it.
you know the answer too dark of shade of brown. lol
U.S. Immigration Bill Could Hurt Mexicans
By MARK STEVENSON


MEXICO CITY (AP) - A proposal in Congress to legalize millions of undocumented migrants in the United States could backfire by slashing the amount of money they send home, Mexican economists warn.

The argument goes like this: Mexicans who have permission to work in the United States will want to bring their families north to live with them, eliminating the main reason they send money home. That would hurt Mexican businesses that have come to depend on the money sent down from the United States.

Miguel Cervantes Jimenez, an economist at Mexico's National Autonomous University, said remittances could drop by as much as 40 percent.

He based his calculation in part on the situation in Turkey, where he said half the remittances disappeared in 2001, the year after Germany - a main destination for Turkish migrants - passed a broad legalization law.

``If I already have my family with me, I no longer have much reason to send money back home,'' he said.

In 2005, migrants in the United States sent home $39 billion. About half went to Mexico, where remittances are the second-largest source of foreign income, after oil sales. In El Salvador and Guatemala, remittances represent the largest source of foreign revenue.

There are no reliable figures on what happened to remittances in Mexico after a 1986 U.S. law legalized 2.6 million undocumented migrants; Mexico acknowledges it wasn't keeping very good track of the income back then.

According to central bank figures, remittances jumped by 39 percent in 1987, then dropped 13 percent in 1988. But the bank abandoned its old accounting system by 1990, calling it unreliable.

The effects of any legalization bill wouldn't be immediate because it would take time for migrants to sponsor family members for residency, said Agustin Escobar, an immigration specialist at Mexico's Center for Research on Social Anthropology.

Initially, there might even be a rise in remittances.

``In most models, legalization results in better conditions for workers, and in the very short term that improves their income and thus their capacity to send money home,'' he said.

However, he said, an eventual drop would be felt in Mexico's mid-sized cities ``among loan companies, businesses that sell farm supplies, and suppliers for small businesses.''

``The effect on remittances in the space of two or three years could well be a decline,'' he said.

Jeronimo Cortina, a political scientist for the California-based Tomas Rivera Policy Institute, said such a drop could affect Mexico's foreign reserves.

But Jesus Cervantes, director of statistics for Mexico's central bank, said the country's economy would suffer only in an extreme situation - such as if all 6 million of its undocumented migrants in the United States were deported at once.

He calls a big drop in remittances unlikely, and predicts there will be a steady stream of migration - and thus remittance income - for at least three decades, as wage differences between the two countries persist even under the best scenarios.

``There have been amnesties and reforms before, and they will continue to occur periodically'' as the United States adjusts to its need for labor, Cervantes said.

A sharp drop in remittances could be devastating for towns such as Santa Ana del Valle, Oaxaca, which has the highest emigration rate in Mexico and where 46 percent of households receive remittances.

``A lot of people send money back,'' said town Councilman Reynaldo Bautista, 52. ``A lot of the town depends on that.''

Bautista said many migrants would take their families north to live if they could, a dream that becomes easier with legalization.

Bautista is himself a case in point: He brought his wife and children to live with him in the United States when he obtained residency. He returned alone to serve as councilman - a duty demanded of men in his traditional Indian town - but plans to return north as soon as his two-year term is over.

Globally, remittances amounted to $226 billion in 2004, according to the World Bank, with $145 billion going to developing countries led by India, China and Mexico.

A 2006 World Bank report noted that remittances amount to twice as much as all international development aid, and noted they can ``improve a country's creditworthiness for external borrowing and ... expand access to capital and lower borrowing costs.''

The report suggested the best way to maximize development in migrants' home countries would be ``managed migration programs ... that combine temporary migration of low-skilled workers with incentives for return.''

The pending U.S. measure would create a guest worker program, in addition to strengthening border security and offering eventual citizenship to many of the estimated 11 million illegal immigrants in the country. The proposal is currently gridlocked in the Senate.

Remittance losses could be offset by money sent home by temporary migrants participating in an expanded guest-worker program, or by those who remain outside the law - and therefore would be less likely to bring their families with them.

The Mexican government's official position is that getting legal status for its migrants is more important than any potential loss of remittances.

``It would be no problem for the economic development of the country if this were to happen,'' presidential spokesman Ruben Aguilar said, ``as long as the citizens of our country could get better, and above all more dignified, living conditions'' in the United States.
Protest coalition heads to capital
Rally pushes for immigrant rights

BY NIRAJ WARIKOO
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

April 10, 2006

On the eve of a national protest expected to be held today in Washington, a diverse group of Michiganders gathered Sunday night in front of a Detroit church to rally for immigrant rights.

Chanting "We are America," hundreds stood on the steps of Holy Redeemer Catholic Church in southwest Detroit to protest legislation that would criminalize many in their communities. They listened to Latino, black, Arab-American, and Muslim leaders who voiced their support for immigrant rights.

"We're trying to be together, to make it happen," said Cristino Herrera, 29, a construction worker from Detroit at the rally. "We are not criminals ... we're paying taxes and raising families."

At the end of the protest, Herrera and about 100 other protesters boarded two buses headed for Washington, where thousands are expected to take part in a massive rally today at the nation's capital.

An anonymous flyer circulated at the rally, advocated that immigrants and others stay away from work or school today as part of a nationwide protest. None of the speakers at the rally, however, endorsed the call. Metropolitan Organizing Strategy Enabling Strength (MOSES), a coalition of faith-based groups in metro Detroit, organized the rally.

It was joined by a broad spectrum of groups: the Arab Community Center for Economic and Social Services (ACCESS), Latin Americans for Social and Economic Development , the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, and the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR).


"Our basic core values are under assault," said Noel Saleh, chairman of the board of directors of ACCESS.

The demonstrators railed against a House bill passed in December that would criminalize the estimated 11 million undocumented immigrants in the United States, and anyone who would support them -- including churches or social service groups. The U.S. Senate failed to reach a compromise Friday on a less-punitive version of the bill, and is to take up the issue again after it comes back from a current recess. "We're looking for good immigration reform," said Juan Escareno, an organizer for MOSES.

Escareno and other speakers preached unity.

Dawud Walid, head of the Michigan branch of CAIR, said the attacks on immigrant rights are a "war on the civil liberties of all Americans."

Walid stood next to priests from Catholic churches in Detroit, who have actively fought anti-immigrant legislation.

U.S. Rep. Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, a Detroit Democrat, told the crowd she opposed the House bill that would criminalize giving support to undocumented immigrants. They cheered in response.

"My brothers and sisters, we are one people," she said.

Corey Hall, of the Detroit Branch NAACP, said:

"We're all in this together."
Jackson seeks to build strong Black-Latino coalition in U.S.

by Leslie Jones McCloud
Chicago Defender

CHICAGO (NNPA) - One month after Mexican President Vicente Fox angered some African-American activists with his comments about Black workers, the Rev. Jesse Jackson Sr. announced that he will lead a trade mission to America's neighbor in order to seek business for Black companies.

Emphasizing the need for a strong Black-Latino alliance in the U.S., Jackson was joined by Carlos de Icaza, Mexico's ambassador to the U.S., in making the announcement.


Jackson likened today's goal to that of the relationship between the Dr. Martin Luther King and Caesar Chavez.

''We must build a world class bridge. For too long we have had shared interest but we have not effectively built this strategic alliance,'' Jackson said.

Part of Jackson's plan includes getting African American children to learn Spanish and increasing the number of Latino children who speak English.

Additional issues include teaching Black and Latino children nonviolence and to avoid gang warfare; cultural exchanges; organizing religious leaders from both ethnic groups; and fighting for affirmative action.

But the most critical issues that Fox has focused on have been the illegal immigration reforms being tossed about on Capitol Hill. Jackson said he is willing to work with Fox and other Latino leaders to help craft a sensible immigration policy that isn't as harsh to undocumented workers.

''The challenge is to build a legal way for people to migrate, so people
can come back and forth,'' de Icaza said at a news conference, and later
at the business luncheon at the 34th annual Rainbow/PUSH conference.

de Icaza said he will work with Jackson and a Black-Latino coalition to solve many issues that the nation's two largest minorities have in common.

''I am here to show respect and appreciation to African Americans and Operation PUSH. There is no reason (we) cannot be friends and brothers.
(African Americans) have a great history in the United States, with
(civil rights),'' he said.

He emphasized the importance of the ''human dimension'' in a relationship with African Americans. One area that the two groups can work on in the short-term is trade.

''We have with the United States, the biggest trade agreement on earth. We buy American goods more than Japan and the United Kingdom combined,'' de Icaza said. ''We have trade to protect.''

Rev. James T. Meeks, a state senator and vice president of PUSH, brought humor and insight to the somewhat strained relationship African-Americans and Latinos have shared over the past few weeks.

He compared it to the relationship between the former Los Angeles Lakers teammates Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant.

''Without cooperation, we will be at home like Shaq and Kobe - sitting at home watching others play,'' he said to a laughing audience at the business luncheon.

Jackson also said a strong Black-Latino alliance can play a role in the
reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act in 2007.

''The result of the Voting Rights Act created a historic rise in African –American and Latino elected officials around the nation,'' Jackson said.
He said the alliance is timely because combined, African-Americans and Latinos make up more than a majority of the populations in the country's largest 75 cities.

''He said, When we work together we can finish the unfinished business of our movement the constitutional right to vote, the constitutional rights to health care and education and the right to organize and breathe free.''
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
the Rev. Jesse Jackson Sr. announced that he will lead a trade mission to America's neighbor in order to seek business for Black companies.


Dude obviously has too much time on his hands.

And still has a strong belief in "keeping hope alive!" Roll Eyes 'Cause that's all he's going to get from Vicente Fox .. is some hope! Frown
Exactly what rights of the immigrants are being violated that cause them to protest so? And why protest a violation they willingly agree to? For example, an illegal Mexican immigrant who comes here must know that there is a good chance he will work for low wages under the table and long hours---yet he still chooses to come! If they are so offended by this supposed violation, why not just leave?
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by mirahjay:

9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.


I've never been to Mexico, but I have seen how people drive in Colombia first hand.

ek

I'm all for requiring that all immigrants, whether documented or undocumented, study the driver's manual, take the test, and get a drivers license.

I can't imagine why so many people want to exempt undocumented immigrants from the requirement of obtaining a valid drivers license.

That's just plain crazy!

bang


Because a druver's license is a privelage confered to citizenss and legal residents of a state. Also, a driver's license is a form of identificication that enables a person more leway to move about. For the illegal immigrant who don't have avalid form of identification, how can we license them without a degree of certainity that they aren't using a false or stolen name. Having a valid license just enables them to continue that fraud. But yes, I see your point: if they don't have licenses, we can't ensure that they can adequately drive and that makes them at higher risk for endangering other people. The immediate solution would be to make illegals take driver's trainings and tests, but issue them ID cards and licenses stating their illegal presence in the country and make the IDs and licenses void for financial transactions. The long term solution would be to remove the problem alltogether by removing said persons.

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