quote:
Originally posted by Yssys:
The definition that I like regarding Black Nationalism is the one given by Malcolm X.
(Paraphrase)The Black Man should control the economy, the politics and social aspects of the black community. That's simple enough.


And what is preventing folks from doing this TO-DAMNED-DAY?

You must also throw in the notion of "Keeping Up With The Jones"

You see Yssys - IF Black folks CHOSE not to purchase Playstation 3s this past Christmas but instead chose to limit their purchases to the items that are available in the "Blacktown" shopping district that each large city in America has THIS GOAL OF YOURS is very possible without a NATIONAL TAKE OVER.

Control of the economy means stop OUTSOURCING to other people who live in your country. The KOREANS have successfully completed the OUTSOURCING of the Black Hair Care market and they live HERE.
quote:
Many tribes and citizens of different African countries hold grudges and prejudices against one another which many times comes to bloodshed. Yet some of you have actually made serious posts concerning going to Africa (did you know Africa is a CONTINENT and not a SINGLE country?) to establish a "LAND" where many people don't even get along with each other. Wow, I am impressed. NOT.

As far as the original question. Hunh??? You ask the question if we could build our own nation if we had the ample money and land? At this moment, we haven't even reduced the gang violence, Black on Black crime, made it a standard to get half of our offspring enrolled in college, held a percentage of Black business ownership that reflects our national population, reduced out-of-wedlock/teenage pregnancies, addressed the AIDS epidemic as a majority in our community, forced or chucked our supposed "civil rights leaders" to actually LEAD, .............. *puff*cough*wheeze* bang

Yeah sure we can do it...As far as Land, I am sure an african SOVEREIGN nation will allow it..oops, I forgot most were referring to the continent of Africa as a country. My bad. If you spend any significant time around people from the African CONTINENT, you will mostly hear them refer to themselves or others by their tribe or country. It is in the States that it is common to use color reference. As far as money, we can do it as soon as we stop putting chrome rims on beat-up cars, buying outrageous jewelry/expensive cars/clothes, and struggling to pay for necessities at the same time.


If you don't mind what matters, then what matters will never come to mind.


fro

Socialization tools we do not have as Africans....we do not have as African Americans. The social rivarly of our culture is the REASON why at this point, we can not establish ANYTHING in "unison" until we recify why as a people we hate each other so much. This very issue is never touched but is seen consistently in how we treat/view each other. There is a quiet anger lit inside. We claim to know to what massa has done to us as he swiped his bloody foot on the head of the slave, what we refuse to acknowledge is the devestation and dehumanizing affects of white colonized Africa.

I agree we do not know and a lot of talk is what we do but there are those of us who come into the community with sleeves rolled up and ready to deal with the problems at hand with our people. But until enough of us [REAL AFRICAN-AMERICANS] do this and formulate social rules within our culture acknowledging that we are distant Africans in America and develop some sort of self-forgiving truce ceremony which will allow many of us off the hook and shake off the slave mentality that has us in emotional bondage, as I have stated earlier in another post, we are doomed! Cuz, most importantly, self-extinction is not too far in the future for Africans. At the pace this genocide is currently going...[i.e. the death of Africa]...well if extinction can happen to today's rare gorillas-once abundant in African rainforests, then surely human extinction can happen as well. fro
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quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
A sovereign country could consist of an independent economic entity within the very infrastructure of this country...a huge spending bloc..responsive to changes and able to leverage for political, social and economic gains.....a much greater version of the Montgomery Boycotts....on a national scale....so the country would not have to be physically separate, but financially speaking.......it sounds a little off...but the U.S. would find it in its best financial interest to defend it like it does its own....


Now, that is staring reality right in the face.

Flights of fantasy putting Americans of unknown African ancestry in any other place, including the continent of Africa, cannot construct a peaceful, beneficial result.


PEACE

Jim Chester
'...I support(and practice) etho-aggregation as a mean to an end,...---Oshun Auset

Once again, we agree.

the end being Pan-Africanism, and our eventual liberation. But liberation is based on land(and it's natural resources), without a land base, we may be better off, but we would not be liberatied.---Oshun Auset

I used to feel saddened when to 'went' to this conclusion.

It felt like a loss.

I have come to realize that isn't true, and...

I am confident that (loss) is not your intent.

We have always disagreed on the necessity of 'land' to the concept of identity for we Americans of unknown African ancestry.

I don't know how that issue 'land' will factor into the construction of Pan-Africanism.

However we enter the Pan-African Construction, it will be without land, and...

Unless we declare ourselves, we will enter that construction as 'simply Americans' who are 'black'...societally that is.

As you know, I would prefer, and insist on a personal basis, that that identity be as Americans who are African American....

African American-Americans, as it were.

I think we're getting 'a little closer'...conceptually.


PEACE

Jim Chester
Well, do you think we would be able to form our own nation without it ending up like Liberia? I'm deeply critical of whether or not African-Americans are too Westernized to smoothly assimilate or acculturate into different African societies. I have a feeling that if we went over there, we would see ourselves as "superior" because of our Western education and better-paying jobs. We might see ourselves as savior figures like the Liberian immigrants did.---Empty Purnata

I think Liberia is the 'living example' of how not to do it, and after more than 165 years.

I don't think we should abandon America, we put too much work into this damned land to just leave it behind. Instead of trying to seperate and form our own nation and leave European-Americans to enjoy the spoils of our past and present labor, we should stay here and attain equal power with the White population. It's our right as American nationals.---Empty Purnata

I agree that here is where must base our progress forward.

I cannot think of a valid reason to even consider doing it in any other place.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by Simbul:
Dang, I have to do this even though I am a new member.

Have any of you have even been to Africa?


Yes, 4 countries.

quote:
I was on a USS ship when the drought hit Somalia hard in the early 90's and we delivered food aid. I have traveled to Marrekesh Maroc (Morocco) and Ethiopia with two of my best friends who are from there. Through them I have met many other Eastern Africans here in DC and other Africans who were brought here as refugees. PanAfricanism is the last thing on their mind.


Just because the people you know do not discuss, or not active in Pan-Africanism does not mean that it is not an active movement on the continent. It takes a critical mass, not EVERYONE for a movement to be successful. Pan Africanism is in the implimentation stage. I know this for a fact because I am a Pan Africanist in contact with some of the 'powers that be' and the 'movers and shakers' on the continent and in the diaspora. Just because one is not a part of, or aware of a movement does not mean it isn't taking place. We as individuals are not omnipotent.

I also have many continental and diapsoran African friends and associates. East, West, Central, and South African. Many are Pan-Africansits because I am one, so I run into and organize with people of the same ilk as myself. On that note, my other 'non-active' friends that are immigrants, that are not refugees, are largely from a particular 'class' (because they had to have the money to get over here in the first place, albeit many a community comes together to pay for one person's ticket, they still had to have the excess money), which means they are middle class(not comparable to the middle class of the U.S. of course) The middle class has a certain 'dialogue' and level of political development, and largely it is not one of revolutionary change. Also, some regions and countries are more progressive politically, and have a longer relationship with Pan Africansm and Pan African activities , movements, and organizations than others. Guinea Bissau is the most politically educated of all.

quote:
Consider the internal wars/struggles in Sudan, Uganda, and Nigeria. Many tribes and citizens of different African countries hold grudges and prejudices against one another which many times comes to bloodshed.


Can not this be said of Europe's recent past? The EU did get formed did it not? I don't think anyone is proposing that any unification process will happen overnight, or possibly not even in our lifetimes. That does not mean it is not going to happen relatively soon sitorically speaking. Change is the only thing that is constant.

quote:
Yet some of you have actually made serious posts concerning going to Africa (did you know Africa is a CONTINENT and not a SINGLE country?) to establish a "LAND" where many people don't even get along with each other.


I personally am totally against 'establishing' a land in African for any diasporan Africans. Pan Africanism does not support this either. The idea is ridiculous IMO. But I have been to, and will be repatriating to a country within Africa. Somethings several of my personal friends , and many others I have met while their, have done successfully.
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:
quote:
I am a black man, society sees me as a black man, when a cop stops me he sees a black man, I check african american or black on forms, my birth certificate lists me as black, I have never looked at myself in any other way....


Kalligula

If you notice one thing about me I DON'T REALLY CARE about what folks on this board think about me.

My RACE is not the relevant point. I have CLEARLY laid down enough tracks for you to figure this out.



Khalliqa is spelled with a "q" not a "g"....

I understand you do not want to answer a simple question of whether you're a black man or not.... I will not do the easy thing and speculate

I'll simply dismiss any authenticity of perspective to your responses speaking as a black man hereafter....


you are clear as am I...
quote:
Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
If we take that as a given in this argument - that there are no nefarious intentions or subterfuge involved - then - should we care what the US/UN has to do to get us our land?---MBM

I get your point.

Taking such a given as a basis for a logical construction is really an adventure into fantacy.

We are talking about the (assignment) of power here.

It is inherently about an ulterior motive.

Establiahing a land in a foreign land is imperialism, at the very least...oppression at the most.

I would not want such a land to 'call my own'.

Since such 'displacement' is inevitable, let it be Americam land for Americans.

I would like to take this opportunity to amend my original suggested land for take over with the remainder of Kentucky, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and in particular all of Texas...the remainder of Tennessee, and Missiouri, and Arkansas.


PEACE

Jim Chester


Mr. Chester... does not imperialism depend upon the intent and the method?

Surely every relocation is not imperialist in nature?

Surely every people have a right to self determination?

Should not these expectations be stated and planned for upfront?

Are not there other means to describe mergers and acquisitions? Every one is not a hostile takeover yes?
Mr. Chester... does not imperialism depend upon the intent and the method?

Surely every relocation is not imperialist in nature?

Surely every people have a right to self determination?

Should not these expectations be stated and planned for upfront?

Are not there other means to describe mergers and acquisitions? Every one is not a hostile takeover yes?
---Khalliqa

I am reminded of 'Manifest Destiny'.

Imperialism certainly has an 'intent factor'.

Result has to be the final measure, however.

Intent is whatever the definer says it is.

If you establish dominance over land I own, but at my invitation, and of 'my own free will' is that Imperialism?

If the same is done against my will, is that Imperialism?

In both cases, you end up with dominance over land that I used to have control over.

The United States has dominion over six or seven Territories.

I say that in each case it is an example of imperialism, including those nations who invite us to stay.

Did you notice how pissed we got when Panama told us we had to leave?

Even when we told them we could protect them better than they could protect themselves.

Dominance over others for the benefit of the dominator is Imperialism...

No matter how it is described.

Not to be confused with an alliance.


PEACE

Jim Chester

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