Peace....


If money and land was not an obstacle would it still be far fetched for black people in America to form our own country? Why???

Would you move out of America into a nation of your own if you were offered equal protection under the law, adequate military protection, guaranteed education for your children, good, clean, and minerally rich land, and a robust economy???



Kai



Whirling Moat
"Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!" And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.
Original Post
I think black nationalism is still an extremely worthy concept. IMO it just needs to be either developed more robustly OR communicated more thoroughly. Frankly, I don't know what 'black nationalism 2007' looks like? Other than somewhat romantic themes of "fighting for a homeland" etc., I don't know under the current national and geopolitical climate what black nationalism means.

Honestly - I'd love to hear more from those who are closer to this. What is the current vision of black nationalism? What are the strategies and tactics being considered to achieve that objective?

To answer your last question - ABSOLUTELY. How could I not want to be on the ground floor of building a new African American nation - particularly under the ideal conditions you describe! tfro
Would you move out of America into a nation of your own if you were offered equal protection under the law, adequate military protection, guaranteed education for your children, good, clean, and minerally rich land, and a robust economy???---Saracen

I would.

I am having a hard time reconciling the possibility of abandoning the investment of my African American ancestors...which were considerable...but, yes, I would.

In considering this hypothetical, I would want to tie it to the proceeds in some proportionate way that is fair to those 'left behind'.

And...I am partial to the land being from the 'contiguous 48'.

I like the land from Delaware to The Florida Keys, inclusive, plus Maryland, West Virginia, the eastern third of Tennessee, and the eastern half of Kentucky.

And I have a flag and 'pledge of unity' I would like to offer for consideration.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace....


If money and land was not an obstacle would it still be far fetched for black people in America to form our own country? Why???


Yes...

There is no unity of purpose and vision for what type of society is to be created.... there are still too many factions that exist silently and overtly within our communities...

We need to highlight and understand these differences... their evolution and causes... as well as the worth of their positions...

Thereafter determine where we all meet...

then discuss strategy....

quote:
Would you move out of America into a nation of your own if you were offered equal protection under the law, adequate military protection, guaranteed education for your children, good, clean, and minerally rich land, and a robust economy???



Kai



Whirling Moat


All of those things would have to be defined ....

what type of education?: a replication of the current system?

what type of military protection?: one where the wars are fought for bogus reasons?


Land for whom? Black corporations?


I want this, our own people, control of our own society... bad .... you know this...

but I am not willing to replicate the current one in black face... Frankly many of the views, values and outlook of our people are just disgusting, frightening or sometimes rarely inspiring.... We are a people who reflect a mixed bag of character and purpose... that mirrors the larger society....

Our people need to create something different.. right now we view this society and its options as the highest of ideals....
Key concepts from the original question:

*money
*land
*our own country
*equal protection under the law
*adequate military protection
*guaranteed education for your children
*good, clean, and minerally rich land
*a robust economy


**************

*money - the VALUE of "money" is determined by the agreement of both parties in the exchange that the piece of paper or metal that this vehicle for exchange takes the form of can be redeemed because it has a system standing behind it to honor the said value.


*land - Land must be defended or it won't be yours for long. (and no I am not saying that you failed to mention the military. I am just stating the fact). ALSO some portion of the land must be put into PRODUCTIVE USE or those in possession of the land will not be able to hold on to it or might do great environmental damage it to as a means of quenching their immediate need to eat. There are plenty of people around the globe who have land - they don't have a SYSTEM that allows them to make maximum utility of the land to achieve a certain STANDARD OF LIVING.

*our own country - One's own country in and of itself does not insure them much. Think back to the great promises that were made when "one of our own" was to become the FIRST mayor, the FIRST City Council President, the FIRST Governor.
Keep in mind that historically CITIES "incorporated" because they reached the point where as an INCORPORATED ENTITY they were able to create greater synergies by managing and governing their local resources than by having the COUNTY do so while they remained UNincorporated. (In other words - they were self sufficient). This point was reached OVER TIME.

*equal protection under the law - once again this state was reached via much, much bloodshed. From the American Revolutionary War to the Civil War to the Labor Movement to the Civil Rights Movement - this particular country did not get this right because POWERFUL INTERESTS saw fit to not have this be the case. Even today there remains the need to manage this point so that one's rights are not trampled by powerful interests coming from several angles. My point is this is a constant work in progress rather than something you can wish upon.

*adequate military protection - Assuming that you have a national budget that you wish to remain within the confines of military spending might often come at the expense of some of the other programs that you have listed below which will also cost money. At the same time - absent your ability to PROTECT your nation from threats coming from those who disagree with you and who want to destroy you - all other points become moot.

*guaranteed education for your children - It is one thing to "guarantee" and education for your children and a very different thing to guarantee a QUALITY education for your children. Quality does not and will never come from the behest of the government. The government can provide RESOURCES to provide the foundation for QUALITY. It is up to the local operators to EXPRESS quality - the student, the parent, the teacher, the principal, the commuinity.

*good, clean, and minerally rich land - See above. At times "minerals" require that you do DAMAGE to the land to access them and bring them to market. Thus there is a balance between environmentalist concerns and mining interests.

*a robust economy - This is too general of a statement. A drug dealer who has his own island, pumping mental intoxicants to his neighboring population could build a "robust economy" as drugs will always be in demand. He could use his profits to increase the standard of living for all of his island mates that help him to prepare these goods for shipment. Though he has a thriving economy that has a certain amount of robustness - he does not have a balanced economy that can sustain itself from the expected backlash of the other government who seeks to have HIM stop doing what he is doing rather than deal with their own people and what they are doing.

Even in the real world - Saudi Arabia has abundant wealth. This wealth is stuck at the top of the government and the food chain while the vast population must go through this ruling force to do anything beyond mineal work.

A "robust economy" doesn't detail the economic principals that this new economy that you speak off will have. The "hunting and gathering" economies of our ancestors lasted for a much, much, much longer time than system that we have today and thus one could argue that THIS is more "robust" than any competing system. The question is - would YOU, having been conditioned to live under American's system be willing to let go of your advanced technology in order to go for a more enduring system?

**********
Points left out of the original example:


* International - Politcal and Trade Relations? (Assuming you go to Africa - the current occupants might have differing objectives than you do - See Liberian history)

* Criminal Justice System? (You said 'Protection' what about PROSECUTION FOR CRIMES?)

* Free Speech - (While Shango says that Cuba has it - you are NOT ALLOWED to criticize the "Revolution" or you are subject to arrest. Thus THERE IS NO "free speech)

* Protection for MINORITIES against tramping by the Majority? (Religious minorities, thought minorities, etc)

There are so many, many more issues that make a "nation" but I will leave it there for now.

(No Kevin41 - this is not NEGATIVE. These are serious issues that must be dealt with).
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace....


If money and land was not an obstacle would it still be far fetched for black people in America to form our own country? Why???

Would you move out of America into a nation of your own if you were offered equal protection under the law, adequate military protection, guaranteed education for your children, good, clean, and minerally rich land, and a robust economy???



Kai



Whirling Moat


I consider myself something of a Black Nationalist am absolutely in favor of the concept of an autonomus African-American homeland, preferrably on the Africa continent. But, I can't say I'd take advantage of the opportunity if it arose due to a few problems. Like Mr. Chester, I too am not inclined to totally abandon the investment our forefathers put into this country, an investment in blood, tears, and sarrow. But even that can be overcome, IMO. The ultimate concern that gives me pause is that which MBM and Khalliqa mentioned: too many factions, and not one cohesive idea of what the society should be like.

Some BN rhetoric insists that the homelands should be for the whole diaspora, others restrict it to descendants of slaves. Some champion a homeland under the auspices of a certain national religion, like NOI or Wanubians (don't knwo if that's what they call it). And what about our economic backbone? No offense to anyone here, but I notice a distinct socialist leaning in many BN movements. On the other hand, I wouldn't want a carbon copy of the extreme capitalism Western society had to endure in the 1800s. How shall our military be organzied, and our educational and health system? There's so much variance of opinion in these matters, that I don't see a homeland foring until we get it officially worked out, nor would I drop all that I and my ancestors invested in thos nation to plunge into such uncertainty.
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
ConFeed...

Are you black?


CF can spout out some crazy shyte, but this post did seem rather well thought out and rational.
ANSWER: HELL-to-the-NAWL!!!


Ain't no bad idea in the first place. LAND & MONEY would have that ON & POPPIN'



(I apologize for highly intellectual language... lol)


DISCLAIMER: I'm a "Black Nationalist." You now know my bias.


.
quote:
Originally posted by UppityNegress:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
ConFeed...

Are you black?


CF can spout out some crazy shyte, but this post did seem rather well thought out and rational.


Looking back it looks like I'm challenging him... I'm not... I thought he brought out good points of clarification....

I was just curious... is all...
quote:
Would you move out of America into a nation of your own if you were offered equal protection under the law, adequate military protection, guaranteed education for your children, good, clean, and minerally rich land, and a robust economy???


I think that ideal for young and unattached (not married, unless the family feeling is mutual) persons and financially secure RANDALL ROBINSON types who are more than ready to QUIT AMERICA.

So folks will need the security in knowing... seeing others repatriate successfully and express the satisfaction they have with the move. Some people need PROOF. Others just won't QUIT.

I'm conflicted or rather not of the QUITTING mindset though I would love to repatriate. I feel it's idea because if I had been exposed to it around college age, such a big move would have been easier.

This project, even with money and land isn't one that's going to happen over night. Folks my have to trickle. Crawl before walk. Walk before up and running with a full head of steam.

LIKE MINDED and LIKE READY-TO-GO, prepared to go people, A CRITICAL MASS is all that needs to go to start. To pioneer.


.
quote:
IMO it just needs to be either developed more robustly OR communicated more thoroughly.


And nothing can do that better than folks doing it without the idea that most or ALL Black people have to buy into the idea.

Somebody has to be first. Someone must pioneer. And nothing communicates better than EXAMPLES OF SUCCESS.

Some people are from the SHOW ME state-of-mind... And nothing is wrong with that. Just that other folks more ready should just do their thang and report/recruit back.



.
Honest question, referring to the topic: "If we had the land and money would forming our own nation"
South Africa - from apartheid to democracy. What do you think, could SA be an example for an African American Nation, also regarding the difficulties and victories and the present situation?
I think, particularly if the land was carved out of the US, that there would be no reason not to set up our own nation.

Most of the disagreement issues would be taken care of... a study of the founding of other new nations, including the USA, shows how that would work.

And other "mindset-related" issues would undoubtedly vanish the closer this thing would come to actually being likely.

The one major obstacle I would see is the tendency of black people -- not quite being "there" yet with our own self-love issues -- to start getting discouraged and start naysaying at the first sign of imperfection with the new nation. But at that point, you would let the people who can and want, continue to do. Emphasis, of course on the CAN and the WANT.
Energy towards a romantic vision is not something that needs to be discussed... it will either be there or not...

the question is how will the energy be formed? In what direction will it move? Preplanning is essential... and for this to take place key questions are essential..

the questioning and criticisms are necessary to weed out the inefficiencies... unproductive ideas... as well as the unrealistic and nonsensical....


and...

there are many black people that hold the idea in theory but will buckle when it becomes realized by all just how attached psychologically and physically they are to this country and its ideals....
I think if the conditions set forth in Saracen's question were realized, Khalliqa, I feel like the questions that need to be resolved, and the steps that would have to happen to actually realize a nation state would get taken care of, speedily and remarkably effectively. Getting land and money to do it is the hardest part; once that happens, I think everything else would be quite doable.
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace....


If money and land was not an obstacle would it still be far fetched for black people in America to form our own country? Why???


I think it is 'far fetched' for the reasons other posters have already mentioned like the severe lack of one accepted clear platform/plan of action between the different 'Black Nationalist' groups and their SEVERE lack of organization(putside of the NOI). (This is coming from someone who personally knows of CATO, Nuwabian, and another nationalist group...the name slips me right now.

quote:
Would you move out of America into a nation of your own if you were offered equal protection under the law, adequate military protection, guaranteed education for your children, good, clean, and minerally rich land, and a robust economy???


If it was a former portion of Amerikkka, no. This land rightly belongs to the indigenous people. I'm not down for bwing the next colinizer.

I'm all for repatriation to Africa though, but also not to a seperate country designated for Africans from Amerikkka(or the Waste, oops I mean West in general). This would be a form of colinization since all land in Africa is already populated by an indigenous folk. Moving any current residents off of their homeland is doing what the imperialists do, and we all know what happened with Liberia. Absorbtion back into any country on the African continent, or even leaving to a majority African populous country in the West is a better option IMO.
quote:
Originally posted by listener:
Honest question, referring to the topic: "If we had the land and money would forming our own nation"
South Africa - from apartheid to democracy. What do you think, could SA be an example for an African American Nation, also regarding the difficulties and victories and the present situation?


What? How could Azania(SA) be considered an African-American Nation? I'm not following your logic. I wouldn't even suggest repatriation to that particular country in Africa. You might as well just stay here. It is a nation controlled by a imperialist/capitalist European economic elite and the Zionist diamond rapers, oops I mean 'traders'. The wealth was never redistributed after the fall of Apartheid, much like here after the fall of Jim Crow. The masses of African people in Azania are highly impoverished. There is only a small African middle class who were 'created'(I mean literally created, by admission by SA government officials) as a buffer group to prevent another uprising of the African masses against their continued exploitation under a 'white' elite(and their African flunkies). As Fela said "Dem-O-Crazy".

Ghana, the Gambia, and Guinea Bissau are much more logical places to repatriate to in Africa.
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
ConFeed...

Are you black?


My ancestors are from AFRICA.

I don't "sun tan"


But most importantly - I have learned to OPERATIONALIZE MY DREAMS - thus my attempt to add SUBSTANCE to the original post.
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quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
So folks will need the security in knowing... seeing others repatriate successfully and express the satisfaction they have with the move. Some people need PROOF. Others just won't QUIT.


But there already is proof. 3000+ in Ghana alone. This type of 'proof' is not going to be talked about in the enemy's propoganda, oops, I mean 'media' outlets though. Such 'proof' is easily accessible information to thows who are actively looking for it though.


On another note,

Saracen,

I was under the impression that the NOI had 'moved on' to a more Pan-Africanist/repatriation stance? Or, is it supporting both successionist and repatriation? I went to a 'free land in Ghana' seminar last fal that was put on partially by the NOI representative to Ghana(who lives there). I would post the link of the project but I can't remember what the project is called.
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
I think, particularly if the land was carved out of the US, that there would be no reason not to set up our own nation.


(Vox - I promise not to make this "all about you/me"

BUT WE CAN'T EVEN KEEP MEXICANS OUT OF THIS COUNTRY...........HOW DO YOU FIGURE WE ARE GOING TO "CARVE OUT A FEW STATES"????????


Or how about this one - BALTIMORE, CAMDEN, EAST ST LOUIS, DETROIT, residential WASHINGTON DC - Black people ALREADY "control" several large expanses of land within this country - WE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT:

*foreign invaders - we got the US Military

*creating a currency - we got the greenback

*basic utilities - they are already there


WE SHOULD BE LIVING "NOW" WITH REGARD TO THE "SYSTEMS" that will be needed when the cord is cut. Why not build an economic bridge NOW to where you wish to go so THE LANDING WILL NOT BE HARD when you get there? Reduce your material CONSUMPTION here and shift that spending over to THERE.

(I ain't gonna lie to you - I just purchased some Hot Lemon Pepper Hot Wings from a Chinese place that is situated right next to a Black sports bar. THOSE WINGS WERE GOOD! So I went back a second day - I then realized that those damned wings are $0.41 A PIECE!!!! I noticed that these Chinese folks had WAY MORE FOOT TRAFFIC from BLACK FOLKS than did the nicely furnished sports bar who's owner BUILD THIS FOR US! Guess who both respective business HAD EMPLOYED behind the counter? Their "OWN PEOPLE"

Then I went to purchase some beer at a gas station and the Indian guy was HAPPY TO TAKE MY MONEY. I wasted about $18 being a CONSUMER. All I got was artery clogging fried wings [that were good] and some beer. I should spend my money more strategically and responsibly).


We could easily start BEHAVING like we will need to later on. My pastor told us that we should be living for "7 generations hence". Thus what you are doing now can be ingrained and encultrated into our soul if practiced enough.

KEEPING THE DOLLAR WITHIN is the first point of discipline.

I wonder what the TRADE SURPLUS between the Black Community and the "Indian/Asian" WITHIN THIS COUNTRY is? There is no doubt a big deficit on our part. (And yes N8 - I am a CO-CONSPIRATOR)
@Oshun Auset

quote:
What? How could Azania(SA) be considered an African-American Nation?


I didn't consider it as an African American Nation. It was about forming a (new) nation.
quote:
Originally posted by listener:
@Oshun Auset

quote:
What? How could Azania(SA) be considered an African-American Nation?


I didn't consider it as an African American Nation. It was about forming a (new) nation.


OK...Still I say...What? I still can't follow your logic. You might want to explain what/how/why you are suggesting SA, an established nation, with very similar racial problems as Amerikkka, as some kind of possible 'new'(whatever that means) nation for Africans from Amerikkka. Forgive me, I just don't 'get it'.
I think we, thus far, have each answered the questions, as asked...and all with valid concerns.

Thus the problem.

We all have 'concerns', and just in every regard.

As a people, we Americans of unknown African ancestry, are in a special circumstance, in a unique place.

I think that when all is said and done a thorough analysis will conclude that where we are is where we belong.

I think the problem will ultimately be, as always, the decision to declare, and assert, ourselves as a people.

PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:
(Vox - I promise not to make this "all about you/me")

WHAT DO YOU WANT?!? A COOKIE?!?!?!?

(Just kidding... lol)

quote:
BUT WE CAN'T EVEN KEEP MEXICANS OUT OF THIS COUNTRY...........HOW DO YOU FIGURE WE ARE GOING TO "CARVE OUT A FEW STATES"????????


Oh, I don't disagree with you, CF, but the hypothetical said "If land (and money) were no object." I don't really know what keeping out Mexicans has to do with any of it, but the logistics of procuring that land, especially here in the US, make the prospect nearly impossible. Oshun's idea of a reassimilation into existing African countries is a lot more possible, and seemingly a lot more logical than the idea of carving out land from an existing state.


quote:

WE SHOULD BE LIVING "NOW" WITH REGARD TO THE "SYSTEMS" that will be needed when the cord is cut. Why not build an economic bridge NOW to where you wish to go so THE LANDING WILL NOT BE HARD when you get there? Reduce your material CONSUMPTION here and shift that spending over to THERE.


True. Someone from the repatriation side can probably address "how" to do that, but you're probably right.

Wow, CF... I think your old Conservo persona is fighting to be released...
@Oshun Auset

>OK...Still I say...What? I still can't follow your logic. You might want to explain what/how/why you are suggesting SA, an established nation as some ind of 'new' nation...Forgive me. I just don't 'get it'.

Yes, SA was an established nation. But the (Black) South Africans have had the hope for a new SA, getting rid of white supremacy, injustice, poverty and more. This was my logic behind.
The establishment of a real new nation would mean, that you kick out a lot of people already living in a nation.

>But there already is proof. 3000+ in Ghana alone. This type of 'proof' is not going to be talked about in the enemy's propoganda, oops, I mean 'media' outlets though. Such 'proof' is easily accessible information to thows who are actively looking for it though.

>Ghana, the Gambia, and Guinea Bissau are much more logical places to repatriate to in Africa.

All the countries you mentioned are also established nations. If only a few African Americans repatriate, this would not be the formation of a new nation, it is an assimilation into an existing nation. But if thousands of thousands would repatriate (to form a new nation), this would have a great impact on the countries.
quote:
Originally posted by listener:
@Oshun Auset

>OK...Still I say...What? I still can't follow your logic. You might want to explain what/how/why you are suggesting SA, an established nation as some ind of 'new' nation...Forgive me. I just don't 'get it'.

Yes, SA was an established nation. But the (Black) South Africans have had the hope for a new SA, getting rid of white supremacy, injustice, poverty and more. This was my logic behind.
The establishment of a real new nation would mean, that you kick out a lot of people already living in a nation.


So basically you are suggesting that we repatriate to SA and kick out the European imperialists? Would that really be forming a 'new nation' or changing an existing one? Wouldn't that be repatriation and reassimilation, which is what I was suggesting to do in other countries? If this is what you are suggesting, I have to commend you for not only wanting repatriation but also in wanting to assist the indigenous African people of Azania with their liberation struggle. You might want to link up with AZAPO(The Azanian People's Organisation).

http://www.azapo.org.za/

quote:
>But there already is proof. 3000+ in Ghana alone. This type of 'proof' is not going to be talked about in the enemy's propoganda, oops, I mean 'media' outlets though. Such 'proof' is easily accessible information to thows who are actively looking for it though.

>Ghana, the Gambia, and Guinea Bissau are much more logical places to repatriate to in Africa.

All the countries you mentioned are also established nations. If only a few African Americans repatriate, this would not be the formation of a new nation, it is an assimilation into an existing nation. But if thousands of thousands would repatriate (to form a new nation), this would have a great impact on the countries.


Hence I don't think forming a NEW nation is the answer, as my previous post pointed out. Even if thousands of people repatriate it still would not be the formation of a 'new' nation. Nor should that be an objective, because that is a colonial way of thinking. Liberia should have taught us that lesson. Reassimilation is the only humanistic approach.
>and kick out the European imperialists?

I have to admit, this was my hope in 1994.
Thank you for the link, but I don't think, that they need my assistance (I'm European). I will go there tomorrow and read.

>Hence I don't think forming a NEW nation is the answer, as my previous post pointed out. Even if thousands of people repatriate it still would not be the formation of a 'new' nation.

Sorry, I was misled by the topic

>Nor should that be an objective, because that is a colonial way of thinking. Liberia should have taught us that lesson. Reassimilation is the only humanistic approach.

Thank you for this
quote:
But there already is proof. 3000+ in Ghana alone.


QUIBBLE TIME... "OUR OWN NATION" per the title (as in Black American founded, started, built, etc.) would seem to suggest something different from Ghana. My statements were made in that context.

Though the same thing applies to Ghana in terms of promotion and African-American to African-American reporting/recruitment.

We've agreed on Ghana in other thread(s), OA... So I'm not ignorant of it. I was, as noted, speaking in a different context. There very one SARACEN seemed to be speaking in.


quote:
Would you move out of America into a nation of your own if you were offered equal protection under the law, adequate military protection, guaranteed education for your children, good, clean, and minerally rich land, and a robust economy???


You know SARACEN is NOI. IMO, he was hardly talking about established nations like Ghana.


.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
But there already is proof. 3000+ in Ghana alone.


QUIBBLE TIME... "OUR OWN NATION" per the title (as in Black American founded, started, built, etc.) would seem to suggest something different from Ghana. My statements were made in that context.

Though the same thing applies to Ghana in terms of promotion and African-American to African-American reporting/recruitment.

We've agreed on Ghana in other thread(s), OA... So I'm not ignorant of it. I was, as noted, speaking in a different context. There very one SARACEN seemed to be speaking in.


My bad, I missed the context a little. I know you aren't ignorant of it, but as we both know, our people are. I didn't mean to sound like I was being confrontational for know good reason, I was just commenting, albeit out of context a bit. Lord knows I don't want to ruffle your feathers Nmag! Razz

quote:
quote:
Would you move out of America into a nation of your own if you were offered equal protection under the law, adequate military protection, guaranteed education for your children, good, clean, and minerally rich land, and a robust economy???


You know SARACEN is NOI. IMO, he was hardly talking about established nations like Ghana.


The NOI is talking about, (and doing) repatriation to Ghana in particluar though, hence my questions to Sarcaren in a previous post.

I know he didn't post the original topic on established nations, but since the organization he is a part of had seemed to move past succession, or at least taken up repatriation as an alternative, I think the subject of Ghana and repatriation is 'in context', abeit not in direct response to what you posted.
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quote:
I didn't mean to sound like I was being confrontational for know good reason, I was just commenting, albeit out of context a bit. Lord knows I don't want to ruffle your feathers Nmag!


You know you're my girl. You're my Role Model.

I can't say, THIS IS MY UNIVERSITY to you. So I have to concede. Your point is very well taken. Ghana's long-standing bridge for repatriates can't be stated enough.


.
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
I think, particularly if the land was carved out of the US, that there would be no reason not to set up our own nation.

Most of the disagreement issues would be taken care of... a study of the founding of other new nations, including the USA, shows how that would work.

And other "mindset-related" issues would undoubtedly vanish the closer this thing would come to actually being likely.

The one major obstacle I would see is the tendency of black people -- not quite being "there" yet with our own self-love issues -- to start getting discouraged and start naysaying at the first sign of imperfection with the new nation. But at that point, you would let the people who can and want, continue to do. Emphasis, of course on the CAN and the WANT.



I agree with this statement 100%.

Theodor Herzl, and his backers demonstrated quite effectively how political pressure, and money can literally raise a nation from scratch.

The African American population possesses far more political might than the Jews of 1947, and we have more money tha the Jews of the diaspora in 1947.

The Zionist movement was built by momentum continued by bi-annual congresses which were called for the expressed purpose of establishing the Jewish State. This provided the opportunity to resolve any conflicts of interest, questions, or concerns which might arise from the potential citizenry.

I agree with what Vox has said, "Most of the disagreement issues would be taken care of..."

There will always be questions and concerns as a new venture is conceived, however, we cannot fail to launch on such a basis. We cannot perfect the idea from a static position, we must adjust while moving.

MBM, asked a question about black nationalism in 2007. I would say that the modern vision is not so romantic anymore. Today the idea must be considered in light of the general predicament of this country, it's crisis of leadership, and the failure of the leadership on our behalf. Grown folks take charge of their own destiny...Yes, a person can allow an authority figure the opportunity to address a greivance, however, after the requiste period of redress has expired, a sensisible person will take matters into their own hands...

I believe that we must take a very honest, and sober look at America in 2007, and ask the very necessary question "Is this the world that I want for myself and my children?" We must not look at what America coulda woulda been..No...Honestly look at it for what it is in truth...Right now..Is this what you want???

If America will ever develop into what we need it to become it must surmount the very real obstacle of stubborn racism. We as a people have always maintained the idea that white racism would erode under the weight of black love, and tolerance. However, a sober look will reveal that in 2006 White Americans shot down affirmative action as soon as the opportunity presented itself, they did so overwhelmingly in Michigan and California...This is the reality...In the face of all of what we have given to this Nation, and despite decades or reorientation training and conditioning, white people still said "No" to repairing the damage of generations of inequality.

How many more times do you ask??? How much longer can we afford to be tolerant??

The income disparites are growing, the education disparites are growing, the disparities in homeownership, growing, etc...The trends which indicate progress do not seem to indicate much movement in the right direction...Yes, there are a greater numbers of exceptional African Americans, however, they are exceptions..We cannot gauge our movement by anomalies...If we are going to gauge properly we must throw everyone into the equation.

Black Nationalism used to be a Romantic idea, however, we had an equally sweet dream of living in prosperity and equality right here under the stars and stripes, however, we do not live like that...We have fought and died in atleast 9 major wars since slavery...We have done it all, and still we are faced with the same problem...

Black Nationalism is a solution if we had the needed ingredients, we already have the requisite cash..We can procure the land, we can also manuever our way into securing Military protection until we are able to provide it for ourselves..It can be done, and despite the obstacles, there is nothing standing in the way except for our decsion to do it..We do not have to convince anyone but ourselves...

Just remember that this entire scenario happened for another group of expatriated people in 1947, and also remember that we are living in a nation of people who are proud to proclaim every July 4th that their foreparents did it...We can do it...



Whirling Moat
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:


I agree with what Vox has said, "Most of the disagreement issues would be taken care of..."


Really? How does this work exactly? How does unity of purpose/vision (the beginning stages of development) just take care of themselves?

How does just a portion of the black community being passionate about an idea unite all others just by virtue of being passionate?

How does strategic planning take place that unites differing, often opposing factions simply because some people are committed to the goal?

Where is the interim process here?

quote:
There will always be questions and concerns as a new venture is conceived, however, we cannot fail to launch on such a basis.


This is a projection... one does not have to stall to answer these questions.... why cannot certain questions be asked as a part of the beginnings of the launch? Is not your initial question a launch in and of itself..? and criticisms thereafter highlighting holes or differences that need to be worked on? Is this not a path towards a final destination?

Criticism can't be brushed to the side when we have such disunity..... unity does not happen out the blue....

quote:
We cannot perfect the idea from a static position, we must adjust while moving.


I do not think we have to remain static to address key questions.... see above...

quote:
Grown folks take charge of their own destiny...Yes, a person can allow an authority figure the opportunity to address a greivance, however, after the requiste period of redress has expired, a sensisible person will take matters into their own hands...


Unless we have many immature leaders.... who fight incessantly based off of ego... money... status...

I always hear about the desire to move towards our own... but no one ever puts forth at least some protracted idea of how they believe overcoming the obstacles will occur....

I think Black Nationalism is in danger of becoming a romantic idea when we focus on the idea so much that we spend an entire dialogue never discussing in truth how to overcome the most immediate challenges to be faced towards such an idea...

the vision should be pursued.... but I am wary of being satisfied with just being motivated...

you know how my mind works...

I'm already at the planning stage....
quote:
I think Black Nationalism is in danger of becoming a romantic idea when we focus on the idea so much that we spend an entire dialogue never discussing in truth how to overcome the most immediate challenges to be faced towards such an idea...


Exactly. Quiet a few people aren't against the idea and would love to be involved but there is a serious lack of long term vision and an certain immaturity involved where the desire to feel validated or get support for Black Nationalism overrides the overwhelming critique of this strain of Black Nationalism that just doesn't seem to get it.

Addressing issues, the weaknesses of one's ideas and legitimate concerns and figuring out... EARNESTLY figuring out how to overcome very predictable/possible challenges is just a mark of a responsible vision vs. a romantic one which wants to imagine things will easily take care of itself.

Now this is coming from the brother who had a particularly negative view of our enslaved ancestors and had problems viewing them as people who, in the main, had a spirit of resistance in them.

The parallel here, in my view, is there are or would be a core of people with the spirit of repatriation or DO FOR SELF via "our own nation" but every day common folk have to know how they fit in and planning has to account for that. So, in my view, this is a long range project even with money and land.

It's the lack of INCREMENTALISM that's makes this brand of Black Nationalism way too romantic.

So I say focus on raising up a generation of would-be pioneering who from birth to achieving adulthood... that generation would be groomed with nothing but Nation-Building in mind. In the meantime, those that WANT and CAN can begin establishing/fortifying infrastructure...

BTW... Zionism was a long term process.

And I fail to see how our CONSUMER ECONOMIC "power" compares to Jews. This reeks of ignorance and is little more than a desire to exaggerate just to forward one's point.

/
I believe that we must take a very honest, and sober look at America in 2007, and ask the very necessary question "Is this the world that I want for myself and my children?" We must not look at what America coulda woulda been..No...Honestly look at it for what it is in truth...Right now..Is this what you want???---Saracen

We begin with ourselves.

We are ones who must teach our children who they are.

We can do this.

We have been teaching our children 'the wrong thing' for generations.

Identity, knowing and declaring who we are, is the beginning.

The authority is in our hands...and minds.


PEACE

Jim Chester
Peace.....


quote:
Really? How does this work exactly? How does unity of purpose/vision (the beginning stages of development) just take care of themselves


There is a difference between a task being "taken care of", and a task taking care of itself. As I see it, it is being suggested that the material issues preventing movement would be resolved in some satisfactory manner prior to the commencement of launch.

The process of identfying, platforming, and disposing of all unresolved issues prior to some substantial movement would severely counteract the spirit of the venture...

Once again if we follow the model provided by the State Of Israel, we will begin this process by convening congresses for the expressed purpose of classifying, and setting forth some methodology for the resolution of the weightier issues which would challenge the process of establishing a Country.

quote:
How does just a portion of the black community being passionate about an idea unite all others just by virtue of being passionate?


I do not think that this is what has been suggested at all. It is not our passion which unites us, it is our plight..

quote:
How does strategic planning take place that unites differing, often opposing factions simply because some people are committed to the goal?


Unity in peril, and the exigency of the circumstance, will unite the factions. Everyone wants the same thing. Security, prosperity, and reasonable liberties. Unity is not our major impediment, overcoming the fear of walking without the crutch of white support is our greatest obstacle.

How do you convince a historically dependant group to willfully become independant? This is the question at hand....

quote:
Where is the interim process here?


The general assembly model as proposed in my previous post would work as the interim stage.

Our exodus would be strategically executed pursuant to a plan formed by those selected to frame the process.

quote:
This is a projection... one does not have to stall to answer these questions.... why cannot certain questions be asked as a part of the beginnings of the launch? Is not your initial question a launch in and of itself..? and criticisms thereafter highlighting holes or differences that need to be worked on? Is this not a path towards a final destination?


I am in agreement beloved. Simply put we must walk the walk while we talk the talk....

quote:
Criticism can't be brushed to the side when we have such disunity..... unity does not happen out the blue....


Not brushing to the side beloved..simply conceding to the necessity of resolving the big differences without a fight, however, not allowing the concession to distract from the objective..When you see imminent danger on the horizon, you must act in the moment..

America is experiencing an exponential growth in hostility due to a widening gap in opportunity. We are seeing the dawning of an age of urban tribalism, and barbarism, which are already spilling into Suburbia. the hungry, and disenfranchised masses do not wish to hear more rhetoric..They are already moving against the system. The response will be more prisons, more deaths, and more degeneracy..Black leaders are too far removed to understand this..It is difficult to understand what is happening in the hood while sitting comfortably in a Barnes and Nobles in front of a laptop sipping on Lattes. People are dying..Children..Our children..The existing government programs in place to address our issues are not far reaching enough, they do not penetrate the real condition..

quote:
Unless we have many immature leaders.... who fight incessantly based off of ego... money... status...


I agree. We must fire these types in the beginning. Leadership must come attached to a clause of accountability..Those who lead must be those who are in love with the cause...Not money, not fame, not power, not women...They must love us enough to deny themselves...

quote:
I always hear about the desire to move towards our own... but no one ever puts forth at least some protracted idea of how they believe overcoming the obstacles will occur


This cannot be the responsibility of one person. We are beyond that now..This model of charismatic leadership doesn't work..Not today...We are all dirty as hell, and trying to establiush a movement on a persona creates the vulnerabilty of having some enemy expose our leader, thus crushing the movement..No this time we convene a body and thenplan, and present OUR unified vision....

quote:
I think Black Nationalism is in danger of becoming a romantic idea when we focus on the idea so much that we spend an entire dialogue never discussing in truth how to overcome the most immediate challenges to be faced towards such an idea...


First things first..Let us agree in principle that it could be done at all..People do not wish to pursue the impossible...Let us first establish the feasibility of the iodea, and then we can strategize.

If everyone is saying "Yes, I would go...BUT.." then we can proceed...

quote:
the vision should be pursued.... but I am wary of being satisfied with just being motivated...



Yes..

quote:
you know how my mind works...



Indeed....

quote:
I'm already at the planning stage


Considered well...



Whirling Moat
Peace....

quote:
BTW... Zionism was a long term process.


Nmaginate, I am not suggesting an exact facsimile of Zionism. I am using it as a crude stencil.

There are those like Dr. Cornell West, who call black Nationalism a "Pipe dream", they do this while unwittingly working for the continuance of the State Of Israel via their tax dollars.

I propose this model as a way to confront the detractors.

I am well aware of the fact that it took 50 years to realize the vision for the Jews, however, as I have already mentioned, we have more money, and influence...

We do it our way..But we do it...



Whirling Moat
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Peace.....


quote:
Really? How does this work exactly? How does unity of purpose/vision (the beginning stages of development) just take care of themselves


There is a difference between a task being "taken care of", and a task taking care of itself. As I see it, it is being suggested that the material issues preventing movement would be resolved in some satisfactory manner prior to the commencement of launch.

The process of identfying, platforming, and disposing of all unresolved issues prior to some substantial movement would severely counteract the spirit of the venture...

Once again if we follow the model provided by the State Of Israel, we will begin this process by convening congresses for the expressed purpose of classifying, and setting forth some methodology for the resolution of the weightier issues which would challenge the process of establishing a Country.

quote:
How does just a portion of the black community being passionate about an idea unite all others just by virtue of being passionate?


I do not think that this is what has been suggested at all. It is not our passion which unites us, it is our plight..

quote:
How does strategic planning take place that unites differing, often opposing factions simply because some people are committed to the goal?


Unity in peril, and the exigency of the circumstance, will unite the factions. Everyone wants the same thing. Security, prosperity, and reasonable liberties. Unity is not our major impediment, overcoming the fear of walking without the crutch of white support is our greatest obstacle.

How do you convince a historically dependant group to willfully become independant? This is the question at hand....

quote:
Where is the interim process here?


The general assembly model as proposed in my previous post would work as the interim stage.

Our exodus would be strategically executed pursuant to a plan formed by those selected to frame the process.

quote:
This is a projection... one does not have to stall to answer these questions.... why cannot certain questions be asked as a part of the beginnings of the launch? Is not your initial question a launch in and of itself..? and criticisms thereafter highlighting holes or differences that need to be worked on? Is this not a path towards a final destination?


I am in agreement beloved. Simply put we must walk the walk while we talk the talk....

quote:
Criticism can't be brushed to the side when we have such disunity..... unity does not happen out the blue....


Not brushing to the side beloved..simply conceding to the necessity of resolving the big differences without a fight, however, not allowing the concession to distract from the objective..When you see imminent danger on the horizon, you must act in the moment..

America is experiencing an exponential growth in hostility due to a widening gap in opportunity. We are seeing the dawning of an age of urban tribalism, and barbarism, which are already spilling into Suburbia. the hungry, and disenfranchised masses do not wish to hear more rhetoric..They are already moving against the system. The response will be more prisons, more deaths, and more degeneracy..Black leaders are too far removed to understand this..It is difficult to understand what is happening in the hood while sitting comfortably in a Barnes and Nobles in front of a laptop sipping on Lattes. People are dying..Children..Our children..The existing government programs in place to address our issues are not far reaching enough, they do not penetrate the real condition..

quote:
Unless we have many immature leaders.... who fight incessantly based off of ego... money... status...


I agree. We must fire these types in the beginning. Leadership must come attached to a clause of accountability..Those who lead must be those who are in love with the cause...Not money, not fame, not power, not women...They must love us enough to deny themselves...

quote:
I always hear about the desire to move towards our own... but no one ever puts forth at least some protracted idea of how they believe overcoming the obstacles will occur


This cannot be the responsibility of one person. We are beyond that now..This model of charismatic leadership doesn't work..Not today...We are all dirty as hell, and trying to establiush a movement on a persona creates the vulnerabilty of having some enemy expose our leader, thus crushing the movement..No this time we convene a body and thenplan, and present OUR unified vision....

quote:
I think Black Nationalism is in danger of becoming a romantic idea when we focus on the idea so much that we spend an entire dialogue never discussing in truth how to overcome the most immediate challenges to be faced towards such an idea...


First things first..Let us agree in principle that it could be done at all..People do not wish to pursue the impossible...Let us first establish the feasibility of the iodea, and then we can strategize.

If everyone is saying "Yes, I would go...BUT.." then we can proceed...

quote:
the vision should be pursued.... but I am wary of being satisfied with just being motivated...



Yes..

quote:
you know how my mind works...



Indeed....

quote:
I'm already at the planning stage


Considered well...



Whirling Moat


Alright beloved.... I still have questions... but I'll let this digest a moment before coming back....


thanks for addressing my concerns...

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