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If reparations are due, start with Native Americans

By Rick Badie
Atlanta Journal Constitution


Tuesday, December 14, 2004

The idea of reparations for black Americans sounds intriguing, though highly unlikely.

I don't expect Uncle Sam to cut me a check anytime soon. It'd be mighty nice, though.

Some black folk believe strongly that the U.S. Treasury Department owes them compensation for slavery.

Maybe. Maybe not.

But if you believe in reparations, there's another group of people just as deserving "” probably more so "” of the so-called "guilt money," and that's the Native American Indians.

At one point, they were great stewards of an American landscape that we're still covering with asphalt. That history lesson you had in school doesn't even scratch the surface when it comes to telling their story.

But there's a 78-year-old retiree in Lilburn who'd be more than happy to enlighten you on the 10 million Indians who lived in America, and their ancestor's plight today.

As a hobby, Bill E. York has written and self-published two books on Native Americans. He gives lectures and seminars on the subject. Last year, he lived in a tepee for a month alongside the Idaho Nez Perce (pronounced Ness Purse) Indians. There, he learned how to make pemmican "” a mixture of meat and berries "” and to spear fish.

"You've probably never eaten a steelhead trout for breakfast," York said, "but when there's no Big Mac around, it's pretty good."

York has no Indian blood running through his veins. He got his first exposure to the life of Native Americans on his grandfather's farm in Hymera, Ind. Nearby woods had once been an encampment for the Miami Indians. As kids, York and his late older brother, John, played on the site, which still had several Indian mounds.

Years passed. York joined the Navy. Afterward, in 1946, he paid a visit to find the farm sold and the woods clear-cut. The mounds had been plowed under.

"That made me sad," York said, "and it made me think how many hundreds of times that identical scenario has played out across this country. So I started researching history and trying to find out what happened to the Indians."

The way York sees it, the government owes the remaining 2.5 million or so Native Americans something for the mostly decrepit circumstances they find themselves in today.

"The slave trade was bad, but what my ancestors did to the Indians was worse," he said. "I'm not one to get emotionally involved in any kind of issue, but they deserve reparations more than anyone else."

Last month, York fenagled some men's clothes from a friend who works in the retail business. He shipped the discards to 38,000 Lakota who live on the impoverished Pine Ridge reservation in southwest South Dakota.

He'd like for you to make a donation, too, and has set up an account with a local bank to accept money for the reservation. If you prefer, you can ship clothes and other nonperishables directly to the reservation.

"I have empathy for what happened to Native American Indians, as well as the plight of many of them today," York said. "It angers me. But I can't find anyone who is as incensed as I am about what my ancestors did."

"¢ Donations to the Pine Ridge Reservation can be made at the Bank of North Georgia, 5100 LaVista Road, Tucker, GA 30084; Items also may be shipped to Red Cloud Indian School, 100 Mission Drive, Pine Ridge, SD 57770.

© MBM

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Original Post
A worthy cause.

Does he say the Indian Nations should be before African Americans in a reparations scenario.

Or are you saying that?

It strikes me, once again, that the mentality surfaces: 'If those 'black' folks are going to get something, we should get it too, AND maybe even FIRST!!!

BY THE WAY, I DON'T SEE THOSE 'OTHERS' RUSHING TO GET THEIR 'SHARE' OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT GUTTED.

CERTAINLY, NOT LIKE THEY DID TO GET INCLUDED.



PEACE

Jim Chester
I think some of the newly independent Americans in the South made those Indians an ultimatum to either own black slaves or they would end up losing their land, which only was temporary, since the Southerners took their land anyway. Some of the Cherokee didn't take slaves; in fact many of them helped slaves to runaway to Florida, which some of them intermingled and intermarried to become the Seminole tribe, which the name means "runaway."
It's the old Deflect & Re-Direct tactic mixed in with a little slippery-slope...

The implicit message is (without reading the actual article... I will eventually):
We can't - i.e. won't - rectify the reparations situation. So, speaking in academic (don't actually take me serious) terms, if we were to do some reparations... Indians would be first!

Yes! JWC! You were right on!
"If you're Black... Get Back (to the end of the line)."

Now, let's see Mr. Wonder actually take of the Native American cause without having to exploit the African-American quest for Reparations in the process.

Did anyone mention to him that Native Americans have received some direct, exclusive restitution?

I mean... Reservations may not be all that but, comparatively, Black people were effectively dispossessed of their(our) land too. Both in Africa and via post-slavery White Supremacy racist schemes and terrorisms.

Also, Native Americans via Reservations, etc. have a modicum of sovereignty. Now, since he's drawing comparisions and pretending to want to square things... let's see an article about that. Let's see an article on how Black haven't even been treated with as much respect or in the same respect as Native Americans.

Again, we were both dispossessed from our land.

Let somebody propose that Black should have "Reservations" let alone some quasi-sovereignty to levy and collect taxes... White people, him include (apparently), would go bonkers!!

(White-speak pun intended... lol Smile)

On second thought... let's call that tactic Divert and Revert... No disrespect to Native Americans meant.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Honestly, I don't see any connection between reparations for Native Americans and for us. While, of course, the same America f*&%ed both of us, we will never get anywhere if we allow others to link our cause with all of the folks that are also due justice from America.

That's exactly the objective of the author... as thinly veiled as it is.

On the connection thingy... Whether there one there or not, if a man murders two people... I do believe he will be charged with TWO SEPARATE COUNTS. Make no mistake about it.
I understand the point...but there are alot of differences that need to be considered.

First of all, Native Americans were not stolen from their homeland and enslaved here. They were bumped out of the way and yeah, many died, but so did many Africans/Aframericans.

So the question here is not whether either group is deserving, it's who is more deserving.

I mean, it's iffy. Native Americans have their casinos and what not. And if we got reparations, would it be the same amount for both groups? Do Blacks deserve a little more because of today's extreme racism? I think the argument would go on forever and that is what the government would as an excuse to not pay ANYBODY.
quote:
Originally posted by SistahSouljah:

So the question here is not whether either group is deserving, it's who is _more deserving.



Respectfully, IMHO, the cause for Native American justice has nothing to do with ours. If I steal your cat, and then also rape your neighbor, those are two independent events which despite the fact that I am the common denominator, have no relation to the other.

Again, I believe this to be a strategy to make the claim that America has screwed so many people that reparations for any of them are not practical. You won't be surprised that I reject that logic, reasoning, and approach.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Again, I believe this to be a strategy to make the claim that America has screwed so many people that reparations for any of them are not practical. You won't be surprised that I reject that logic, reasoning, and approach.


MY VERSION OF THIS STATEMENT WOULD BE...

The American & European elite imperialist/colonialist/slave global system HAS & "IS SCREWING" so many people that reparations are going to be fought tooth and nail by both the American and European economic elite and governmental elite, because it points out the flaws in the current global system that is perpetuating the continuation of simlar injustices.
All this self-pity and selfishness, while fascinating in the psychological sense, is a waste of good time. The american people as a whole aren't going to stand for having their tax dollars go to pay off african americans who now enjoy the highest standard of living of black folks anywhere in the world. Its just not going to happen.
In addition, their are more total white people living in poverty than black or native americans combined, and their lot cannot be blamed along racial lines. Black folks can make the point that they began their american enterprise from a lower starting point due to past injustice, but so can practically all the immigrants who came here in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
With those two precedents serving as a legal argument against reparations, the idea is nothing more a scheme that civil rights lawyers ponder and devise in order to make themselves rich and powerful.
quote:
Originally posted by JanesT:
In addition, there are more total white people living in poverty than black or native americans combined.


I too agree that waiting and/or expecting the descendents of slave owners to show sympathy(either financially or verbally) for present-day African Americans is a waste of time. Furthermore, there are over 40 million European Americans with African ancestary, how would you even begin to differentiate between the white descendents who should be held accountable and the white descendents who are of African ancestary, and have yet to realize it? And if these Europeans of African ancestary (black descendents of slaves) should ever become aware of their heritage, should the government refund their money and instead reimburse them a check for reparations since at least half of their ancestary comprises of slaves as well? On the topic of white poverty, J.T., there are more total white people living in poverty than black or native americans combined because whites make up the majority of the American population. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that there would be "more" of them in poverty compared to minority populations. However, one must not conclude that minority economic progression robs whites, specifically poor whites, access to economic progress. Just for the simple fact that whites are the majority in this country gives them an advantage and facilitates more opportunities to pool resources and confine wealth in majority white communities.
Concerning American Native reparations, it is not African people's responsibility first of all to defend the causes of someone else's plight when we have yet to grapple with the consequences of cultural displacement in our own communities and in the diaspora. If American Natives are interested in seeking restitution from the descendents of whites for the offenses of their forefathers, it becomes their responsibility to act on this at their convenience. If you ask me if American Natives are "more deserving" of reparations, I liken this situation to the outcomes of death. Does it really matter that one man has been shot and another stabbed? Both shed blood, both are now dead, their fate the same.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:

I too agree that waiting and/or expecting the descendents of slave owners to show sympathy(either financially or verbally) for present-day African Americans is a waste of time. Furthermore, there are over 40 million European Americans with African ancestary, how would you even begin to differentiate between the white descendents who should be held accountable and the white descendents who are of African ancestary, and have yet to realize it? And if these Europeans of African ancestary (black descendents of slaves) should ever become aware of their heritage, should the government refund their money and instead reimburse them a check for reparations since at least half of their ancestary comprises of slaves as well?
More hypothetical and irrelevant questions...

First, no one is seeking "sympathy"...
So let's completely do away with that BS.

Now, if by that you mean to refer to not having the expectation of some Great White Change Of Heart... then maybe you would have a point. And, speaking of what's a "waste of time" doesn't at all sound like your "Respecting Other People's Views" and not trying to force others to change theirs...

Anyway... it wouldn't matter if there were 200 million Whites with African descent. Their African "blood" is irrelevant. There is no need to differentiate them from other White folks.

The very 'fact' that they are White and/or identify as White eliminates them. PERIOD!!

Obviously, some of us seem to be ignorant of the history and perks of White Skin privilege. The One Drop Rule was all appearance and common, surface knowledge (that which could be obtained or was readily maintained in one's local public records) of one's family tree - unless you have some knowledge that every person was actually had a blood test taken and their actually family tree put on record to establish their ancestry (all the way back to any and everyone who would have every touched foot in America).

Reparations isn't about who has "Black blood". Again, no need to differentiate. "Black Blood" is, as I've told Whites and others who were non-Black, incidential and largely inconsequential. Neither is Reparations about "poverty".

Raising these false issues shows how poorly those against Reparations, for whatever reason, have a grasp on the issues let alone on making logical counterarguments.

For the Whites who would-be African...
Unless their African/Black blood has been materially or otherwise detrimental to them in measurable terms - in a society that has placed value on SKIN COLOR... skin appearance - then the yet and heretofore unrecognized fact that they have "Black Blood" has not caused them even the slightest racial inconvenience, let alone some sort of "injury" or damage which Reparations seeks to repair.

Again, Black Blood is incidential to racist crimes of Slavery and Jim Crow (and present-day racism). It is also inconsequential to the extent that having Black Blood and not knowing it... and never having society view you as "Black" or part Black has NEVER resulted nary a negative outcome.

How can something unknown and unrecognized be worthy of "refund" or (re)imbursal?

If those who are ostensibly White have never lived or been subjected to "The Black Experience" and never been penalized for having "Black Blood" - them and their FAMILY (to include generations) - then what would they receive Reparations money for? NOTHING!!!

This whole line of argument is Devoid-Of-Logic.
It's what I call the Spiral Ridiculous. It is incredulous because it seeks to offer hypothetical and immaterial information as reasons not to pursue something that is otherwise "just". I.E. The argument only goes serves to argue the feasibility issues.

Saying that something is Hard-To-Do, for whatever reason, in no wise argues that it is "wrong" to do. The fallacy of this position you've regurgitated ROWE is that it pretends to make a case along those lines.

The larger fallacy is the Slippery Slopism represented by sighting Whites-Of-Unknown/Unrecognized African/Black Blood.

Now, for someone who tries to champion the right for those against Affirmative Action not to likewise stand-up against what is unmistakeably an undeserving, opportunist proposition... ROWE your position here is beyond being hypocritical.

You can raise Devil Advocate, "I don't really believe this", questions all you want but at least raise those that have a logical basis. This one does not.

It's the BLACK FAMILY (generational) and BLACK SOCIAL EXPERIENCE that counts. That experience is the only thing material to Reparations claims.

It's like duh... Whites who happen to have "Black Blood" and never knew it would not have been subjected to the requisite terror of Race Riots and Lynchings. Them and their families would not or did not suffer even indirectly from that.

Whites who happen to have "Black Blood" and never knew it would not and did not suffer from the racialized regime of "Whites Only, No Blacks Allowed" segregation. For them, what they don't and haven't known and recognized hasn't hurt them.

So, as usual... your questions-points are beside the point. Off-the-topic. IRRELEVANT.

***It really shows some other type of motivation or sentiment at work. LOGIC or an actual acquaintance with what is at issue with Reparations clearly are not.***

Framing the Reparations issue as something simply to do with having "Black Blood" and/or being "poor" evades the whole issue of JUSTICE. Unwittingly or not, that's exactly what those who argue against Reparations in those terms are really against - JUSTICE.

Now, ROWE... you can explain exactly what issues you have or misgivings you have with Black people receiving JUSTICE. Again, for off-the-point arguments to be raised there has to be other things motivating the argument. Some type of sentiment that renders Reparations as something not "desirable" (from a Black person's pov... but, yet again, something that's beside the point) or some other "I'm White and I see Reparations as threatening" type of motivation.

I submit that both acquiese to White Supremacy.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Whether they suffered from a racialized regime or not, if black people were ever issued reparations, you will be shocked at how many white folks will suddenly claim black identities! You know how good they are at finding "loopholes" in everything.
And what does that have to do with this thread?

And I already spelled it out. There are no "loopholes". You felt there was one with the White Skin With (part) Black Blood... but I explained exactly why that's a disqualifier.

If you're going to speak on this issue and try to debate an issue or aspect then you're going to have to come with something other than your usual mix of assorted, disassembled sentiments and exasperations.

Further, "they" won't have the platform by which to find "loopholes"... that presumes that "they" will administer/dispense our Reparations for us.

Obviously, you're not acquainted with my thought process on this. You seem to think regurgitating The Top Ten Things People Say About Reparations somehow presents some type of challenge for me.

"...you will be shocked at how many white folks will suddenly claim black identities!

You just don't get it, huh? I don't give a fuck! They can claim all they want. But they want be the authors of Reparations wherein they can write themselves into some of the "benefits".

And you say all that to say what??

Even if all that side-issue BS happens... WHAT??? What ROWE? What?

Make an argument that's material to the actual subject. Damn!!!!! ...and to think I laid all out.

Either you argue how and why you think Reparations is just or unjust or your repeated BS makes your argument for you by default. I could care less whether you think "they" will let it happen or not. I could give a fuck what "they" do. What? Is that suppose to stop me or make me change my tune?

You got the wrong one, ROWE.

Hmmm.... funny how you thought "Black Blood" posed a problem. Now, you've moved on to the next thing in line. At least have the fortitude to identify your motivation.

I've already lined out what's exactly at issue her. What White people would do is irrelevant. What seems to be your problem with making direct responses?

Here is again. Respond to this:
quote:
...you can explain exactly what issues you have or misgivings you have with Black people receiving JUSTICE. Again, for off-the-point arguments to be raised there has to be other things motivating the argument. Some type of sentiment that renders Reparations as something not "desirable" ...or some other "I'm White and I see Reparations as threatening" type of motivation.

Which one is it ROWE?
And please, in the spirit of mature discussion (and disclosure), explain your answer.

Thank you.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
At least have the fortitude to identify your motivation.



Nmaginate, I encourage you as well as other black males to read a book titled A Black Man's Guide To Surviving In A White Man's World by E. LeMay Lathan.

The reason why I'm not interested in investing much effort or time in threads discussing reparations is because black people will never get reparations. Its as simple as that. Its a waste of time to expect reparations or apologies from white people who have persistently worked (whether you agree with the way it was done or not) so that they could enjoy opportunities and priviledges among themselves as a majority nation. As African Americans who are often times isolated away from mainstream society, its very easy to forget that we are minorities in this country. And as long as you are a minority in this country Nmaginate, you will NEVER have the same priviledges as whites. Rest assured. This is a reality that you must embrace and accept. Its does not mean that you should accept mistreatment or abuse from the majority, but it does mean that you must defer to certain accommodations so that you can survive in this society. Whites (European immigrants) who have worked hard to create this nation and amass its monumental wealth are not going give it all away in reparations to a bunch of minorities. Therefore, rather than waiting on handouts, it would be more productive for you to invest your time and energy in getting an education, finding reliable employment (or establishing your own business) so that you can provide for your families and thereby earn the respect and validation that you seek from others. More importantly, a man that is waiting for whites to defer to African Americans is not only a victim of wishful thinking, but is a pathetic fool.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:

Whites (European immigrants) who have worked hard to create this nation and amass its monumental wealth are not going give it all away in reparations to a bunch of minorities.


Thomas Jefferson was quite articulate in his belief that whites and blacks could never live together in this country after slavery. He believed that "deep rooted prejudices entertained by the whites - ten thousand recollections by the blacks of the injuries they have sustained - new provocations - the real distinctions that nature has made, and many other circumstances which divide us into parties, and produce convulsions which would never end but with the extermination of one or the other race."

If Jefferson and others could have never contemplated 'America 2004', I'm quite sure that the argument for reparations, while no doubt an uphill battle, has much greater potential than you think. IMO, getting from the 1770's to now, in terms of the way America has evolved in its thinking, is a FAR greater evolution than what is required to secure reparations for descendants of slaves.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
At least have the fortitude to identify your motivation.



Nmaginate, I encourage you as well as other black males to read a book titled A Black Man's Guide To Surviving In A White Man's World by E. LeMay Lathan.

The reason why I'm not interested in investing much effort or time in threads discussing reparations is because black people will never get reparations. Its as simple as that. Its a waste of time to expect reparations or apologies from white people who have persistently worked (whether you agree with the way it was done or not) so that they could enjoy opportunities and priviledges among themselves as a majority nation. As African Americans who are often times isolated away from mainstream society, its very easy to forget that we are minorities in this country. And as long as you are a minority in this country Nmaginate, you will NEVER have the same priviledges as whites. Rest assured. This is a reality that you must embrace and accept. Its does not mean that you should accept mistreatment or abuse from the majority, but it does mean that you must defer to certain accommodations so that you can survive in this society. Whites (European immigrants) who have worked hard to create this nation and amass its monumental wealth are not going give it all away in reparations to a bunch of minorities. Therefore, rather than waiting on handouts, it would be more productive for you to invest your time and energy in getting an education, finding reliable employment (or establishing your own business) so that you can provide for your families and thereby earn the respect and validation that you seek from others. More importantly, a man that is waiting for whites to defer to African Americans is not only a victim of wishful thinking, but is a pathetic fool.

ROWE, I didn't ask you to speak about your issues. I asked you to layout your motivations for NOT making and sticking to what you think are counter-arguments. You can keep all your fucked up interpretations and (mis)characterizations to yourself.

Again, I asked you what's behind your arguments here. Your unfounded and inconsistent arguments. I didn't ask you what you think about those who are proponents of Reparations. But, at least you revealed what informs your view... your mentality and your underlying assumptions.

As for the advise and suggested reading... Cool! But, again, keep your bullshit and fucked issues to yourself. For someone to cry about people playing the "victim", you sure do a bunch of "Woe Is Me" around here. But let's get to it.... (next post... below):
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:

The reason why I'm not interested in investing much effort or time in threads discussing reparations is because black people will never get reparations.

First, besides making an obvious EXCUSE, this is your aSSumptive judgement. We'll leave it at that for now...

Hmmm.... now directly on this EXCUSE...
Exactly why do you think that's important?
Exactly why do you think that's important to me?

Does the fact that you don't believe Reparations are forthcoming EXCUSE your poorly constructed arguments-positions? Is that what you're trying to say?

"Please don't pay much attention to my arguments because I haven't put much time and effort into them. I just couldn't bring myself to investing that much thought-power. It's really a waste of time. But I opened my cyber-mouth anyway."

Now, if it's a waste of time... for you?
Why do you feel compelled to say anything?
Why is it so important for you to say "It's Not Going To Happen!"?????

For someone to waste as much time as you have you must have a reason for wanting to say that. And that's the motivation I already alluded to.

What do you get out of saying it?
Does it make you feel good?
And... um.... speaking about A Waste Of Time...
You actually spilled all this cyber ink just to say that?

Thanks ROWE... Thanks for dropping by to lay some heavy stuff on us! Roll Eyes
quote:
Its as simple as that.
No, ROWE.
What we simply have here is your inability to come up with anything else that you can form an argument with.

WOW!! You can make a strong presumptive proclamation... based on your biases and issues. I'm impressed!
quote:
Its a waste of time to expect reparations or apologies from white people...
Again, this is all based on your personal aSSumptions.

First of all, your FRAMING issues really aren't very becoming...

"Apologies..." brofrown Huh????

WTF!!! Who the hell do you think you're talking to? And to characterize it in terms of "Expectations"... Well, it's clear throughout your little "I still can't stay on the topic" monologue:
quote:
...as long as you are a minority in this country Nmaginate, you will NEVER have the same priviledges as whites. Rest assured. This is a reality that you must embrace and accept.
Well, since you want to throw around labels like "victim", "waiting for handouts fool", etc. then I feel more than justified to ask you:
What kind of Negro are you?

For some reason, you seem to think that you can convince me or whoever (yourself is more like it) that what you say amounts to anything worthy of considering just because you can put those words together in a sentence. Things you say could possibly stand a chance if you knew how to form a coherent argument. But since you can't....

Suffice it to say, your words here (above/embolden) say so much about you and permeates your thoughts all over this forum. The way you express them aren't consistent with any form of Afrocentric thinking. So, that's why I'm always puzzled (not really...) when you mention your knowledge and associations...

But, before you start your Coward's Cry about Black "Status Quo" Thinking (cowards come in all colors... hmmm...), you would do better than selecting me, Faheem or Oshun because our views have never been "mainstream". Your Embrace & Accept attitude also-known-as DEFEATISM by way of "accomodationism" has to varying extents been exactly what Black mainstream political thought has amounted to except at critical junctures...
quote:
As African Americans who are often times isolated away from mainstream society, its very easy to forget that we are minorities in this country.
Where do you come up with that BS?

Hmm... I guess this website is so indicative of this memory problem we all tend to have?

And, there's no need to even cover the ignorance in this "isolation" BS. Perhaps you were at some point or may (still) be now but that's one of the weakest ideas to ever be associated with this topic. By definition, Reparations is a stark contradiction of your premise.

Yes! We forgot/forget so much that approach this topic which potentially speaks to all manner of our "isolation", so-called minority status and history, etc.

And that's just it. None of us (besides you apparently) are and will allow anyone to regard us as *MINOR*(ities). And the very last people we will allow to think in those terms are ourselves.
quote:
Its does not mean that you should accept mistreatment or abuse from the majority, but it does mean that you must defer to certain accommodations so that you can survive in this society.
List those "accomodations"...

And... um... No Thanks!!
I don't drink Kool-Aid!
quote:
Whites (European immigrants) who have worked hard to create this nation and amass its monumental wealth are not going give it all away in reparations to a bunch of minorities. Therefore, rather than waiting on handouts, it would be more productive for you to invest your time and energy in getting an education, finding reliable employment (or establishing your own business) so that you can provide for your families and thereby earn the respect and validation that you seek from others.

Is this the White ROWE speaking?

Hmmm.... Where is the clause or statement that said me or anyone else here speaking on issues important to us as African-Americans are motivated by some desire to "earn" White people's respect or some kind of validation from them or whoever?

This BS... besides being total BS is actually kind of funny. I mean... look at the aSSumptions...

"it would be more productive for you to invest your time and energy in getting an education, finding reliable employment"

Besides whatever personal presumptions this may or may not be making about me (assuming I don't have an education or "reliable" job... DID YOU EVER REALLY READ THE EDUCATION ARTICLE on the other thread?)... what's funny is the leap it makes about what will happen when these "earn respect" requirements are met.

You aSSume that White people's (or anyone else's) attitude will change if Black people do X, Y, and/or Z. Since you more or less referenced history:
There is NO history of White attitudes being based on what Black people did or did not do.

Try another weak, Acquiescing To White Supremacy (if not outright defending and adhering to it) argument.
quote:
More importantly, a man that is waiting for whites to defer to African Americans is not only a victim of wishful thinking, but is a pathetic fool.

More accurately...
You've run out of anything logical to say so you've resorted to BS labeling.

Reparations is not about Blacks/African/African-Americans "asking", hoping or otherwise wanting Whites to "defer" to them.

I mentioned the "J" word earlier.
You can do all your White Twisting & Squirming that you like but you can't escape or evade it.

And just to let you know...
I am much too CENTERED (grounded) and have too much constitution to let your weak, Grasping At Straws, Screaming In Defeat little antics phase me. Like I said... you seem to think you're going to convince someone just because you say so... and, really, what's apparent is that you must be trying to convince yourself.

That's why you can't talk about your motivations plainly.

Now, if your opinion is what you say it is - you don't believe Reparations will happen - then your only motivation is saying so (along with the other stuff I've quoted here) is to try to dissuade others from pursuing it.

Why else would you phrase things in terms of what's a "waste of time" or what would be a more "productive" use of time and effort?
You certainly haven't voiced your opinion here because you see some logical flaws in the Reparations argument. You didn't come here to present an argument/counter-argument. Your purpose was to say what you just did...

Now, again, what's your motivation or reason for saying that?

(PS: Your cover is already blown.)
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:

"...as long as you are a minority in this country Nmaginate, you will NEVER have the same priviledges as whites."
And this is from the Prophetess of Anti-Hopelessness.
quote:
"...you must defer to certain accommodations so that you can survive in this society."
And this is from the Prophetess of Anti-Hopelessness. One who hopes her views and critiques are respected since they go against the grain of "status quo" Black political thought.
quote:
"...rather than waiting on handouts, it would be more productive for you to invest your time and energy in getting an education, finding reliable employment (or establishing your own business) so that you can provide for your families and thereby earn the respect and validation that you seek from others."
Slipping Into WHITENESS.

Notice the detachment denoted by the term "YOU".
Now, all-of-a-sudden ROWE is not among the "YOU". Hmmm.... I could swear...

...I see your true colors shining through.
I see your true colors...

Also??? Didn't you say something like this?
quote:
I will say again that no one has the right to impose his or her perspective about any subject, including subjects related to race, on another.
I'll give you the honors...
How do you characterize your views - aka admonishments - here?

"...you MUST..."
"...you will NEVER..."

Very Respectful-Of-Other-People's views...
My thoughts feel so validated by your statements. I feel as if you aren't trying to impose your view on me at all. Nor are you trying to impress upon me that your ONE VIEW... your one way of seeing things are "right".

No!!! You would never do that! winkgrin
quote:

quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Honestly, I don't see any connection between reparations for Native Americans and for us. While, of course, the same America f*&%ed both of us, we will never get anywhere if we allow others to link our cause with all of the folks that are also due justice from America.


On the contrary, MBM, don't you agree that there is power in numbers? I think the cause for reparations would be strengthened if AAs did form an alliance with native Americans, Latinos, Asians, Pacific islanders, Arabs, and any other group with a half a drop of dark pigment in their skin. Let them really gang up on the whites, once and for all, on this reparations issue.

And not just those 5% of whites who owned black slaves in the antebellum South either. Go after all of them - including the millions of whites descended from immigrants who came to America after slavery was abolished. Make them pay through the nose, too, for all the bad things they did to ALL "people of color."

In this way, I guarantee, every African-American will one day get his "mansion on the hill and a Cadillac DeVille" and live happily ever after.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
...
No!!! You would never do that!


Whoa! That was a strange exchange. I, uhhhh, damn! We have to defer to white people and we should just get educated and get a job to earn their respect. (because clearly none of us are educated or employed if we're pro-reparations) Hmmmm....

Keebler-itis is catchy!

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