If All Black People Were Perfect...

Of course not. Racism/White Supremacy would still exist. So any and all arguments would still have validity.

It just wouldn't affect us in the same way ... and may not be worth us discussing.

Racism/White Supremacy has never had any validity. A white supremacist's feelings of superiority are based on nothing more than their own insecurites.

ok - I assumed this would resize the avatar....sorry about that. (lol) I'll not post again until I fix this.

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Of course not. Racism/White Supremacy would still exist... [they] may not be worth us discussing.

Okay, let me rephrase my question. That's exactly what I'm asking, EBONY: Would There Still Be Something To Discuss?

Or given our personal perfection? PERSONAL perfection?
Would Racism/White Supremacy become OBSOLETE... as far as we're concerned? As far as the things we tend to discuss (some more than others, perhaps)?

I mean, would there still be a sense that Racism/White Supremacy does a grave injustice to us... you know, if we were "perfect"? It seems as if you're saying Racism/White Supremacy would be less salient, if at all, under those circumstances. I don't necessarily believe that it would be any less so. So I wonder why they (racism/White Supremacy) wouldn't be "worth" discussing if that was the situation...

(And V~, I'm talking about White Supremacy as the Power Structure not any of that David Duke stuff...)

(And V~, I'm talking about White Supremacy as the Power Structure not any of that David Duke stuff...)---Nmaginate

I think you have essentially answered your own question.

'White Supremacy' is all about power.

The color-construction of American society is about establishing and maintaining power.

It is not about comparative judgment of performance-based attributes.

Validity has also never been a part of the criteria of 'white supremacy.'

The trite cliché comes to the fore.

'White is right.'

There is no reason involved.

We would still perceive injustice because there would indeed be injustice

And we would still talk about it.

PEACE

Jim Chester

Our 'perfect world' would have 'perfect' 'white supremacy.'

"We would still perceive injustice because there would indeed be injustice

And we would still talk about it."

Okay, that's exactly what I'm asking. However, there are some, apparently, who would at least view or perceive those injustices differently, even to the point of seeing those injustices as things "not worth discussing" as less important, if at all, when and if every Black person was perfect.

"I think you have essentially answered your own question."

I asked the question, JWC, not because of some lack of knowing. I asked it because this seems to be the idea, as I perceive it, working behind the ideas of some people. In fact, I'm somewhat surprised by your response. Though I hardly had you specifically in mind, I would have put you in that class given your philosophy De Jure:
"We Are Our Own Worst Enemy"

Given that you share that idea/ideology with EBONY, I would have assumed your view would more closely resemble her's. But that's really beside the point.

Either way, whether you would see Racism/White Supremacy as salient or not... IF WE WERE PERFECT, the logical question that follows is WHY would it or wouldn't it be?

Note: I am not looking for simple answers. In Depth Analysis Wanted. Preferred.

I know where I stand and ask the question fully knowing what I think and with my own answer to it. Again, I don't ask the question because of some lack of knowing. I'm asking for reasons why people believe what they do and, really, what they really see or how they view Racism/White Supremacy.

Anyway, since you believe "THERE WOULD STILL BE INJUSTICES" why would you continue to see those injustices as things important to us? Why would Racism/White Supremacy still be urgent or critical for discussion, if ALL Black People Were Perfect? Why wouldn't our Personal Perfection make Racism/White Supremacy OBSOLETE in terms of it importance and its impact on our lives? Again, we would be PERFECT. Why would Racism even matter then? Specifically WHY?

Please answer in detail.

A quick note on the Racism/White Supremacy I'm talking about:

quote:

Since the end of official segregation black Americans have suffered additional economic losses [in addition to those suffered under Slavery and Segregation]. A number of economic studies have suggested how much African American workers annually lose from continuing discrimination and informal segregation in employment. For one year in the 1970s the estimate of the cost of continuing racial discrimination in employment has been put in the range of $94-123 billion (Darity 1990: 11). Estimating a dollar figure for the period since the end of segregation to the present day would doubtless bring this figure of lost income and purchasing power from continuing discrimination to another several trillion dollars.

...Because of racial discrimination in securing mortgages for homes, as well as for businesses, African Americans are losing an estimated 100 billion in equity over this current generation as compared to comparable whites. Moreover, over the last few generations this lost home equity doubtless totals many tens of billions of dollars. In addition, recent research indicates that the current white-black differential in assets is not the result of differences in savings rates (Darity and Myers 1998: 150-52).

http://www.millionsforreparations.com/feagin.html

quote:

Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I mean, would there still be a sense that Racism/White Supremacy does a grave injustice to us... you know, if we were "perfect"? It seems as if you're saying Racism/White Supremacy would be less salient, if at all, under those circumstances. I don't necessarily believe that it would be any less so. So I wonder why they (racism/White Supremacy) wouldn't be "worth" discussing if that was the situation...

What I am saying is that, if we had our own "stuff" together, racism/white supremacy would not be irrelevant, but it's impact would not affect us nearly as acutely as it does now. Racists/white supremists would still be continuing to undermine our advancement and tear down our successes and pull whatever little tricks out of their bags in an effort to delude themselves into sustaining their feelings of superiority. In other words, no matter how successful we might be, they would still try to cheat in elections. There would still be attempts at intimidation and stuff like that. That will never go away. It's what they do.

However, if we were, as you want to use the word "perfect" and had our own financial, political, educational, personal, social strength, what they might do or try would be something we would have to still deal with and talk about -- simply because those things are directed at us, and we would be foolish not to acknowledge their existence if we are the focus of them -- but those things would not be of the importance that they are now, and we would not need to take the actions that we need to take today in order to deal with those things.

In a "perfect" world, we would not have to go their banks and be denied loans because they are racists and we are Black. We would be taking care of the education of our children ourselves and would not have to grovel with the Department of Education and local school boards to give our childen equal opportunity at quality education. In a "perfect" world, we would be electing our own into public service and making sure our requirements were met, and the white supremists who are currently lurking in our Congress would have us to deal with in form of a force to be reckoned with and their agendas would not automatically prevail as they do now.

The actions of racism/white supremacy today effectively keep Black people down. Were we already up and self-sustaining, their agenda would change, and our response and the effect of that agenda upon us would be changed as well. Would it still be viable? Yes. Would it be as important? No. Would it still adversely affect us? I don't think so. Affect us, yes ... adversely, no.

But again ... if you're ever foolish enough to turn your back on an enemy ... then I suppose you get what you deserve. You should know better. And I guess if we were "perfect", we would.

Anyway, since you believe "THERE WOULD STILL BE INJUSTICES" why would you continue to see those injustices as things important to us?---Nmaginate

I think I missed the point of 'importance to us.' It is an important distinction.

I don't think it is important in the sense of 'chasing it' as a goal.

I do think the mentality of 'white supremacy' will continue to exist, by definition, as long as our color-based society exists.

It is inherent in the system.

I overwhelmingly more important what we do.

If we can defeat the 'white supremacy' written into our law, then we opportunity, and chance, for success are quantum leaps ahead.

I think that solution is applicable to every detail of our fight.

PEACE

Jim Chester

By saying, "if all Black people were perfect...", it sounds as though you are implying that we are completely at fault for our own degrading and tragic history. Whether we are perfect or not doesn't matter, because the white racist tends not to judge us first on our actions and behaviors, but on the color of our skin. They consider us inferior simply BECAUSE. So in order for all that hate to go away, don't you think that all WHITE people would have to be perfect 1st??

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However, if we were, as you want to use the word "perfect" and had our own financial, political, educational, personal, social strength,

EBONY... all I said was if Black people were PERFECT. Having our own institutions really is not the same thing. That was not what I was talking about.

There is a discord in your views. You reduce Racism/White Supremacy down to individuals, in essence -- hence you saying Racists and White Supremacists. But, somehow, you take what I've queried about Black People to extend to something other than just people, individuals. Why is that?

How is it that you can conceive of a Racism, etc. that will continue to undermine our advancement and success but, as you initially suggested, you can consider that Racism as something hardly worthy of discussing... I guess just because we have our own?

That doesn't add up, EBONY.
Acute or not, it seems to me something (RACISM) that you can articulate as something that will undermine our advancement is something worth discussing. That is unless you don't take our advancement quite as serious.

I'm not understanding this... Seems like your views are convoluted, conflicting if not contradictory...

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those things would not be of the importance that they are now, and we would not need to take the actions that we need to take today in order to deal with those things.

EBONY, that goes without saying. That also was not the question. I asked if our "perfection" would make Racism (our concerns about it) Obsolete.

By definition, a change in social dynamics mean we won't see things as we do today. That statement of yours doesn't seem to say much or exactly why Racism will have less significance or salience (or whatever). As you have said, certain things stand in the way or will be done to undermine our advancement, so exactly how will it be less significant as you initially seemed to suggest?

In what way would Racism affect/effect us?

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In a "perfect" world, we would not have to go their banks and be denied loans because they are racists and we are Black. We would be taking care of the education of our children ourselves and would not have to grovel with the Department of Education and local school boards to give our childen equal opportunity at quality education.

EBONY, I'm not asking about a PERFECT WORLD. I asked if Black People were "perfect." My point is to strip away some of the layers of the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY rhetoric.

Some people act like if every individual Black Person was "taking care of their business" that would translate solutions to our collective problems. Frankly, my questions here are my attempt to highlight the fallacy of that view and to point to something that still hasn't been addressed.

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Were we already up and self-sustaining, their agenda would change, and our response and the effect of that agenda upon us would be changed as well. Would it still be viable? Yes. Would it be as important? No. Would it still adversely affect us? I don't think so. Affect us, yes ... adversely, no.

See, this is what I'm talking about. This is very convoluted, EBONY. At first you said:

"Racists/white supremists would still be continuing to undermine our advancement and tear down our successes... That will never go away. It's what they do."

But now you say the continued undermining of our advancement by Racists/White Supremacists (people of whom I have NOT talked about) will not adversely impact us. EXPLAIN!

quote:

Originally posted by SistahSouljah:

By saying, "if all Black people were perfect...", it sounds as though you are implying that we are completely at fault for our own degrading and tragic history.

SISTA, you don't understand what I'm saying. I'm posing this question because that's exactly the sense I get from people who hold the Personal Responsibility, "We Are Our Own Worst Enemy" ideas. Those ideas are not my own, nor do I require ALL Black People to be perfect...

quote:

So in order for all that hate to go away, don't you think that all WHITE people would have to be perfect 1st?

Likewise, I don't think ALL White People have to be perfect either. Nor do I speak in terms of this simple notion of "HATE". IMO, "Hate" has little to do with it. If nothing else, it makes for poor analysis for what's at work, IMO.

I can oppress you without "hating" you.
I can fulfill my self(ish)-interests without even being concerned about you -- like, love, hate or otherwise.

Now, if you would, please address my question(s). Again, I don't believe or subscribe to any notions that say it is "Our Fault." Please address the question. You might be able to shed some light on the subject. I'd appreciate it.

I think the key to what I'm getting at is in what JWC said:
"white supremacy... is inherent in the system."

Comments...

The futility of contemplating 'what if' scenarios for the behavior of Europeans is why I don't discuss solutions for our survival, and ultimate establishment of parity for us as a people in our society.

It is we who have to take the color out of our identity in our society.

We can never be successful asking, or negotiating such a critical thing.

We simply declare it. No one has to agree, except us.

The dynamics of the hegemony has no alternative, but to change.

Language of society describes the behavior in that society.

One step at a time.

Without the law on its side, we will move forward, the mentality of 'white supremacy' notwithstanding.

Good question.

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

The futility of contemplating 'what if' scenarios for the behavior of Europeans is why I don't discuss solutions for our survival, and ultimate establishment of parity for us as a people in our society.

In other words, you have nothing intelligent to add. I have NOT contemplated a "WHAT IF" that's relevant to European behavior. The exact question is WHAT IF WE WERE PERFECT? That deals with our behavior, directly.

What seems to be your problem?

As always, when a question calls for more than just cliches' and simple little notions you shrink away from ever saying anything meaningful beyond surface level comments.

Thanks for NOT dealing with the question and for not speaking about how we can discuss solutions.

Okay, Nmaginate ...

You are correct. I obviously do not comprehend what it is you are saying or asking. And I'm sincerely sorry that I tried to answer this post in my convoluted, conflictly, contradictory kind of way. You'd think I'd know better by now.

It won't happen again.

quote:

Originally posted by Nmaginate:
If All Black People Were Perfect... Would That Make Racism Obsolete?

By that I mean, if every individual Black person lived positive lives, were educated and gainfully employed would any arguments speaking about racism/White Supremacy have any validity?

I guess for the sake of this topic, we have to assume that racism is no obstacle to the ability of black people to become gainfully employed. And further down, where you refer to "positive lives," I guess we take that to mean we're not doing anything self-destructive.

You would have to figure that if we were all getting down like that, racism would react by becoming more overt and virulent. In response, we would have to become more vigilant. So in this kind of hypothetical, I would have to say that racism/white supremacy would be as major an issue as ever. The positive difference is that, by the very terms of the hypothetical, it wouldn't affect the quality of our lives (because we're living wholesome, moneymaking lives, accumulating and passing assets, etc.). But the negative difference is that we'd have to be much more politically action-oriented, to fight off all the legislation & government actions designed to chip away at our advantage, and to fight against efforts to exterminate us (because no self-respecting white supremacist society could allow perfect black people to run around).

I think the point we should be striving for, if anything, is parity, not perfection. Whatever percentage of the total population is poor, unemployed, incarcerated, born out of wedlock, etc., that's what the percentage should be for us. That's what we should gun for, and that's what is probably doable in the long run.

quote:

Originally posted by Nmaginate:

quote:

Originally posted by SistahSouljah:

By saying, "if all Black people were perfect...", it sounds as though you are implying that we are completely at fault for our own degrading and tragic history.

SISTA, you don't understand what I'm saying. I'm posing this question because that's exactly the sense I get from people who hold the Personal Responsibility, "We Are Our Own Worst Enemy" ideas. Those ideas are not my own, nor do I require ALL Black People to be perfect...

quote:

So in order for all that hate to go away, don't you think that all WHITE people would have to be perfect 1st?

Likewise, I don't think ALL White People have to be perfect either. Nor do I speak in terms of this simple notion of "HATE". IMO, "Hate" has little to do with it. If nothing else, it makes for poor analysis for what's at work, IMO.

I can oppress you without "hating" you.
I can fulfill my self(ish)-interests without even being concerned about you -- like, love, hate or otherwise.

Now, if you would, please address my question(s). Again, I don't believe or subscribe to any notions that say it is "Our Fault." Please address the question. You might be able to shed some light on the subject. I'd appreciate it.

I think the key to what I'm getting at is in what JWC said:
"white supremacy... is inherent in the system."

Comments...

Okay I'm obviously not the only person having a problem with this quesion. But I'll try again. I don't think you meant 'perfect' by Webster's defintion, am I right? Maybe you mean 'perfect' by white standards, or 'perfect' as in more similar to whites.

If Black people had their ish together, no, I don't think you'd hear the blame being put on white supremacists so intensely. I think we'd be so concerned with our business that we really wouldn't have time to focus on that. Of course, the racism would still exist for the reasons I've previously stated. I think some Black people DO use the oppression of racism as an 'excuse', although I hate to say it, for the problems that they have.

I'm glad you don't think it's our fault, I just found the wording of the post to point in that direction. It's an interesting question however; I'm curious as to know what made you think of it.

I hope I answered the question, if not, maybe you can elaborate more, because others also seem to be having an issue addressing it in the way you expected.

quote:

Originally posted by Nmaginate:
If All Black People Were Perfect... Would That Make Racism Obsolete?

By that I mean, if every individual Black person lived positive lives, were educated and gainfully employed would any arguments speaking about racism/White Supremacy have any validity?

In my opinion, no, if Blacks were perfect as you defined them, it would not supercede R/WS. This is because I don't believe you can separate the David Duke's from the White Power Structure. There are thousands of David Dukes out there, to a greater or lesser degree, in a continuum that composes the White Power Structure. They view Blacks as inferior, through lenses they have worn since childhood.

Also, because I believe that there is more to racism than just power, although power is certainly it's largest component. The poor White living in the Mississippi Delta has little power, but he comforts himself by feeling superior to the Black PHD living in town. It's a sense of superiority that he has learned since birth, like background music and by the time he's twenty he knows the tune by rote. It's permanently bonded to his mind and I'm not sure it can be changed, except with the passage of time and the coming of new, hopefully more enlightened generations.

quote:

Originally posted by Nmaginate:
If All Black People Were Perfect... Would That Make Racism Obsolete?

By that I mean, if every individual Black person lived positive lives, were educated and gainfully employed would any arguments speaking about racism/White Supremacy have any validity?

Quite the opposite, if black people were perfect or anywhere near it than blacks would be the supreme race to be worshipped by inferior peoples. Europeans would still be at first technologically ahead because of better food sources and labor animals but the wisdom and intelligence of a perfect people would kill from the getgo any notion of superiority by other peoples. Slavery would have still existed because of technological/military advantage of the Europeans but by embedding them in our society and culture the perfect blacks would quickly begin to take it over through their obvious strengths, subverting their very masters and eventually rising as the Elite class in every society they entered.

I know this isn't the direction you want to take the dicussion, I think you want to discuss whether racism exists because of percieved inferiority of other peoples or because of some other motives. And to that I would say that the historical foundation of racism against Blacks would have never developed if you all were a perfect people.

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Originally posted by Goshtoire:
Quite the opposite, if black people were perfect or anywhere near it than blacks would be the supreme race to be worshipped by inferior peoples.

I really like that answer!!

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

quote:

Originally posted by Goshtoire:
Quite the opposite, if black people were perfect or anywhere near it than blacks would be the supreme race to be worshipped by inferior peoples.

I really like that answer!!

Hahaha, well I sure don't, that would be pretty terrible to be white in a world where blacks are perfect. I guess it kinda gives me insight into the mind of a black person who thinks his/her race is inferior. My ambition and confidence would be crushed because I wouldn't be a part of the perfect black race. Self-defeatism of non-blacks would be epidemic beyond imagining if black people were perfect.

quote:

Originally posted by Goshtoire:
Hahaha, well I sure don't, that would be pretty terrible to be white in a world where blacks are perfect. I guess it kinda gives me insight into the mind of a black person who thinks his/her race is inferior. My ambition and confidence would be crushed because I wouldn't be a part of the perfect black race. Self-defeatism of non-blacks would be epidemic beyond imagining if black people were perfect.

Hmmm .. that's really interesting Goshtoire! Because I have no idea what it's like to feel inferior to whites ... but I wonder if that's the way some one who does really thinks and feels! OR is that how think that a black person would feel, because that's how you, as a white person would feel?

Originally posted by Vox:

I guess for the sake of this topic, we have to assume that racism is no obstacle to the ability of black people to become gainfully employed.

Well, that would be a flaw or a big assumption. Maybe that's the part that gave rise to EBONY ignoring the "every individual Black person" clause... So, point taken. Such are hypotheticals, I guess. But good observation/critique.

And further down, where you refer to "positive lives," I guess we take that to mean we're not doing anything self-destructive.

Of course...

You would have to figure that if we were all getting down like that, racism would react by becoming more overt and virulent.

Now, exactly what makes you say that?
Why would that be a logical following? Why would there be such a direct relationship? What ideas do you base that on?

Not that I disagree, I'm just not seeing you lay out what informs your view on this...

The positive difference is that, by the very terms of the hypothetical, it wouldn't affect the quality of our lives (because we're living wholesome, moneymaking lives, accumulating and passing assets, etc.).

Okay, let's get to EBONY's ideas here. As noted, my question spoke to how Black INDIVIDUALS would be "perfect". That certainly seems to be the call when Personal Responsibility is being preached. The larger question I'm asking (at least one of them) is how or why do we assume INDIVIDUAL success, etc. will somehow translate into collective uplift, so to speak?

You talked about passing on assets? What does that say about the State Of The Black Community?
Certainly individuals and their individual familes can be better off. But will that translate to our community as a whole?

It seems as if JWC, e.g., believes it might and the rhetoric of some seem to suggest it because, from what I see, the more concrete ideas about What We Should Be Doing seem to be exclusively on Individual Action, etc.

I'll get to the rest later... Thanks for the input. EVERYONE.

What if 'White people' were perfect?

quote:

Reply

Please excuse me, but what standard definiition of the word perfect are we using? No people, neither white nor black, can be considered perfect because "perfect" is a relitive term that should not to be used in order to judge ourselves or others. I know this may sound naive and simplistic but maybe some one can school me.

Maybe you mean 'perfect' by white standards, or 'perfect' as in more similar to whites.

Huh? LOL...

Sista, Sista, Sista... Please, Sista...

If Black people had their ish together, no, I don't think you'd hear the blame being put on white supremacists so intensely.

White Supremacists? Who mentioned White Supremacists?

Last Sentence: Posted July 24, 2005 03:14 AM

(And V~, I'm talking about White Supremacy as the Power Structure not any of that David Duke stuff...)

It's an interesting question however; I'm curious as to know what made you think of it.

Sista, I think I spoke to it in some of the other posts-responses, generally... Specifically, I guess, more directly discussions/debates with professed Black CONservative(s) on Faheem's Blog. But elements of this particular person's philosophy rings through in many of the sentiments various posters express here. It's this type of RHETORIC that brought my question:

quote:

"The fact we live in a racist country DOES NOT absolve us of personal responibility."

"Racism could dissapear from [certain Black people] lives today. And they will still be behind because they are unwilling to adapt and compete."

My response (in part) to that was:

quote:

ALL the personal responsibility in the world isn't going to solve our problems. CASE IN POINT!!

ALL our problems are not individual problems. There are systematic, institutional, structural problems that exists in an interplay with and Over & Above the ones born of individual failure or lack of motivation...

http://blackintrospection.blogspot.com/2005/06/my-fico.html

So, now, you at least know where I'm coming from. But, again, similar sentiments and ideas are expressed to varying degrees by posters here. So I feel like my question was particularly relevant on a number of levels.

More directly, as you've put it yourself... certain views expressed, unquestionably Point In That Direction: Suggesting That Black People Should Be, Must Be PERFECT or Near Perfect... At least that's what I hear in some of the things people say when we have some of the discussions/debates we have.

When a person is quick to say, "We Can't Blame The White Man" for this, that and the other, then, naturally one has to wonder if that person believes Black people have to be "perfect".

Another discussion on BPI discussed the Adage that We Should/Have To Work Twice As Hard As White People and how there seems to be this under-spin that, not only should we strive for excellence but accept the idea as a Fact Of Life even now in the Post-Civil Rights America.

So there's quite a bit, perhaps, that makes me ponder this question.

quote:

Please excuse me, but what standard definiition of the word perfect are we using?

That's pretty funny...
What STANDARD DEFINITION?

I guess it has to be "standard" for it to be an acceptable definition. Too funny... Sorry, but it was just funny how you asked for a definition but then tried to limit it to something perhaps more to your liking.

I have a philosophy about Human BEING in which being Perfectly HUMAN definitely doesn't mean Without Spot Or Blemish. All that aside, I believe the working definition was stated.

quote:

...I mean, if every individual Black person lived positive lives, were educated and gainfully employed would any arguments speaking about racism/White Supremacy have any validity?

You can also include what VOX said:

"where you refer to "positive lives," I guess we take that to mean we're not doing anything self-destructive."

Now, this will border on ridiculous if we have to list all the self-destructive lifestyles in order for us to grasp what is meant by Black people, INDIVIDUALS being "perfect".

I hope that helps and I hope that's enough for you to register your answer.

LOL Nmaginate sorry if I confused you...

Perfect means without flaw. No human is without flaw, it cannot even be a possibility, so I was asking you what you meant exactly, by 'perfect'. Someone else asked too.

And the usage of the term white supremacy to refer to the white power structure...can easily be misinterpreted to mean something else...but in that case...

I'll repeat what I've said before in different words. I don't know about it becoming obsolete. I don't know if that's the right term. Obsolete implies out of the way, of no concern, overshadowed, not needed to be addressed, etc. Whether Blacks in general were in a better state or not wouldn't completely rid the need for that issue to be addressed, because we would STILL face racism and STILL be seen as inferior, IMO. And that's because of the simple fact that our ancestors were brought here against their will and treated as trash. The philosophy of White>Black has stuck in the minds of many (including some Blacks) and I don't believe anything will change that. It would take a miracle from God.

quote:

Originally posted by Nmaginate:

quote:

Please excuse me, but what standard definiition of the word perfect are we using?

That's pretty funny...
What STANDARD DEFINITION?

I guess it has to be "standard" for it to be an acceptable definition. Too funny... Sorry, but it was just funny how you asked for a definition but then tried to limit it to something perhaps more to your liking.

I have a philosophy about Human BEING in which being Perfectly HUMAN definitely doesn't mean Without Spot Or Blemish. All that aside, I believe the working definition was stated.

quote:

...I mean, if every individual Black person lived positive lives, were educated and gainfully employed would any arguments speaking about racism/White Supremacy have any validity?

You can also include what VOX said:

"where you refer to "positive lives," I guess we take that to mean we're not doing anything self-destructive."

Now, this will border on ridiculous if we have to list all the self-destructive lifestyles in order for us to grasp what is meant by Black people, INDIVIDUALS being "perfect".

I hope that helps and I hope that's enough for you to register your answer.

Ok you answered my question too. Lol but obviously we don't all think like you do. When I hear the word 'perfect', I think 'God'.

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

You are correct. I obviously do not comprehend what it is you are saying or asking.

I believe I made it pretty clear. You spoke about if we had "our own financial, political, educational, personal, social strength" when I clearly spoke rather specifically about the PERSONAL or individual. Again, you seemed to clearly jump from a question about INDIVIDUALS (personal strength) to talking about COLLECTIVE STRENGTH. Here is what I asked:

"if every individual Black person lived positive lives, were educated and gainfully employed"

All we have to do is reflect on things like BET to note how INDIVIDUAL SUCCESS hardly translates into COLLECTIVE BENEFIT. In fact, it seems to go without saying, that INDIVIDUAL SUCCESS can have (at least in the opinions of some) very negative impact/influence on the Collective.

So, with an exception of what VOX observed as one major assumption, I was pretty explicit and particular. Each word part of what I hoped to be a pretty careful constructed question to get at the heart of some of our beliefs.

As I told JWC, I know where I stand. But just as I was somewhat surprised by his answer, I'm hoping to see exactly what others views are. What's behind some of things that are said.

quote:

And I'm sincerely sorry that I tried to answer this post in my convoluted, conflictly, contradictory kind of way...

Well, if you're sincere then you could EXPLAIN what you mean and clarify. It's just that simple. If you don't see how things you said either are... or could be construed as such then... Well, then...

SISTA, thanks for your input... I appreciate your patience.

Some "confusion" is to be expected when it comes to such hypothetical questions...

quote:

Originally posted by Nmaginate:

You would have to figure that if we were all getting down like that, racism would react by becoming more overt and virulent.

Now, exactly what makes you say that?
Why would that be a logical following? Why would there be such a direct relationship? What ideas do you base that on?

Well, I'm assuming (and again this may be a big assumption, since GOSHTOIRE appears to have made an opposite assumption) that in this hypo, blacks BECOME perfect. Like, today we're not, then this time next year, we become perfect. I'm thinking that, to a huge extent, there would be a great deal of resentment from white people. I don't know if I have any real concrete stuff to base it on, but I have a hard time believing that they wouldn't be resentful. Maybe it's shades of Tulsa haunting me... but I notice that white people get a little unnerved when black people get together and do something (eating together at lunch in college; or at work; etc.). They think we're being "racist," and they criticize us for not opening up and being more inclusive... even though there's an obvious bit of hypocrisy there. So imagine if blacks got together, all 35-odd million in America, and "became perfect." That would have to be a lot more threatening than eating together in the cafeteria.

That's what I think especially considering that there's a semblance of the "zero-sum" thing in our economy. If 35 million blacks all were making at least middle class earnings, then there would be a sizeable increase in the number of non-blacks filling in the economy's required allotment of poor people. That would ruffle a few feathers, I'm sure...

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The positive difference is that, by the very terms of the hypothetical, it wouldn't affect the quality of our lives (because we're living wholesome, moneymaking lives, accumulating and passing assets, etc.).

Okay, let's get to EBONY's ideas here. As noted, my question spoke to how Black INDIVIDUALS would be "perfect". That certainly seems to be the call when Personal Responsibility is being preached. The larger question I'm asking (at least one of them) is how or why do we assume INDIVIDUAL success, etc. will somehow translate into collective uplift, so to speak?

You talked about passing on assets? What does that say about the State Of The Black Community?
Certainly individuals and their individual familes can be better off. But will that translate to our community as a whole?

It seems as if JWC, e.g., believes it might and the rhetoric of some seem to suggest it because, from what I see, the more concrete ideas about What We Should Be Doing seem to be exclusively on Individual Action, etc.

Well, I think if we're all doing well individually, the collective is by definition doing well. In particular, the "asset-accumulation" component of what I said factors in as an example. If I have children and they have children, it stands to reason that one day I'll have great-great-grandchildren. My 17 or so great-great-grandchildren will have, under this hypo, received the benefit of passed-down assets that originated in their 16 great-great-grandparents. Me, my future wife, and 14 other people. Chances are, I will never meet any of the other 14 people, and none of us could ever know that we will have this common future genetic bond. Yet, our assets are combining along with our genes. If all of us pass on our assets to these future people, I'd say there is a form of collectivism at work here. Multiply that by millions of other people, and I think there's an argument that the collective is working toward a goal, on some level.

That's just one (somewhat obtuse) example, though... (I'm sure I can come up with better illustrations when it's not so late!)

quote:

That's what I think especially considering that there's a semblance of the "zero-sum" thing in our economy. If 35 million blacks all were making at least middle class earnings, then there would be a sizeable increase in the number of non-blacks filling in the economy's required allotment of poor people. That would ruffle a few feathers, I'm sure...

Okay... that fills in the blanks. Thanks.

But could you tell me where you picked this idea up?
So imagine if blacks got together, all 35-odd million in America, and "became perfect."

I said nothing about ALL 35 million African-Americans "getting together". Again, I said INDIVIDUALS. If anything, if ALL Blacks as individuals got their individual shit together. That's the question. But you raise an important point both with the Zero Sum (and whether it is true or not... it seems to be what informs people perceptions/perspectives)... and with the observation-predictions about the perceived Collective Threat Black Advancement seems to be in the minds of White America.

It's that old Abe Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson WHITE SUPREMACY, IMO. Yeah!! That White Supremacy... Not that David Duke shit!

On the COLLECTIVE thing though, I'm talking about institutions and the like that will organize things. Our COMMUNITY is more than just a collection of individuals. And it, too, is more than just a collection of individual families. There would be no need for organizations - social, civic, political or professional - if individuals alone make for a society Working Toward One Goal, functioning efficiently, etc.

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Well, I'm assuming... that in this hypo, blacks BECOME perfect. Like, today we're not, then this time next year, we become perfect.

Hmmmm.... INTERESTING...
You seem to suggest that this "perfection" thingy could possibly come so fast.

Hmmm.... INTERESTING indeed...

I know this isn't the direction you want to take the dicussion, I think you want to discuss whether racism exists because of percieved inferiority of other peoples or because of some other motives. And to that I would say that the historical foundation of racism against Blacks would have never developed if you all were a perfect people.

GOSH~... WHAT??
You are way off. And, really, beyond the origins of people's ideas in direct response to the question of whether they, right here, right now would consider Racism/White Supremacy OBSOLETE or of less concern... then I am in no wise asking a question about the history of Racism. I'm asking about the future of it in the imagination of Black people (as in the range of thoughts/minds of, the opinions or concerns of Black people and not "imagination" as something unreal or made up).

So I really don't understand you talk about Slavery, here. And the "perceived" inferiority stuff. What?

Read the question again.
The first line is the crux. Would Racism Be Obsolete? The second part only seeks to clarify the first. So, given that you somehow deviated from the CRUX of the first part by not answering in the vain of whether Racism Would Be Obsolete under the conditions clearly set (Black individual "perfection" as noted via positive lives, etc.) then you should know where you got off course...

Oh and, BTW, the last sentence I quote from you is very problematic stated as-is. Damn SISTA SOULJAH? Where are you when I need you? lol

GOSH see her initial remarks to me. Her first sentence... then think about your last sentence.

In her words:
"if all Black people were perfect...", it sounds as though you are implying that we are completely at fault for our own degrading and tragic history.

Now that's exactly what I think when I read what you said eventhough I may be able to understand... But it doesn't sound like a compliment.

I believe that your question is not being answered in the way you want or expected it to be Nmaginate mainly because the questions itself assumes that our imperfection is the cause behind all the things we say and know is the manifestation and proof that racism is alive and well in America. You proposed a question that mainly should be one proposed and asked of those who believe that Black irresponsibility is the root cause of the Black Condition in America. The two people that believe and profess that belief the most are the Negro-Con and white folk. A belief that says our imperfection is what cause us to be uneducated, unemployed and all around negative by default would mean and suggest that perfection is what those who have all these things have attained.

Maybe the use of the word Perfect is the biggest problem although you qualified what you mean when you used the word perfect; the use of the word still causes problems. Maybe the question should have asked; if Black men and women were free of the pathologies that white folk and the Negro-Con believe causes us to be in the condition we are in, would we still make arguments about racism? This question I could answer with no problem because it is more specific in terms of cause and effect versus using imperfection as the cause and our condition being the fallout from our imperfection.

Being free of the Pathologies that are spoken of as being the cause of the Black condition in America would only mean that other reasons would have to be made and given to explain the Black condition if our condition is still the same, Thus, if all pathologies were gone meaning we were perfect as defined in your original question and our condition was the same, the only people who would need to change their arguments are those who say that our pathologies causes our condition, however, if our pathologies were no more meaning we were perfect and our condition improved than we would have to say it was our pathologies and not racism and white supremacy that causes our condition.

I believe we have enough evidence by way of the Black men and women on this board and all over America that are educated, are gainfully employed and live positives lives that racism and white supremacy is still a problem and the root cause of the Black condition and though we are perfect as defined in your original question (educated, employed and positive) we still have to deal with racism and white supremacy.

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Originally posted by Faheem:

I believe that your question is not being answered in the way you want or expected it to be Nmaginate mainly because the questions itself assumes that our imperfection is the cause behind all the things we say and know is the manifestation and proof that racism is alive and well in America. You proposed a question that mainly should be one proposed and asked of those who believe that Black irresponsibility is the root cause of the Black Condition in America.

FAHEEM, I was pretty clear in saying that threads of those ideas run through some of the thoughts of members here, Black Conservative or not. In verying degrees, nonetheless; but it seems pretty obvious and relevant, IMO, for the "We Are Our Own Worst Enemy" sentiments held by some here, as I mentioned.

Also, as far what I wanted in terms of answers... all I asked for is a serious consideration. It mattered not whether a person answered in any particular way. I was hoping for extended examination, again, on a number of levels that while in keeping with what was specifically asked would consider more and examine more of the reasons why we hold the ideas we do.

Your response seems to be locked into your battles with Black CON's. My responses to both Ebony and Vox shows how there is much to examine, IMO, amongst those of us who are not Black Conservatives. The question can be pondered whether one believes or accepts what you feel was implied.

I maintain that there are ample number of Black people who are not so-called Black CONservatives who would see Racism/White Supremacy as less significant as if there wouldn't be anything of any urgent concern. See EBONY'S response.

Again, with her ideas and VOX's there is/was plenty of things that I wanted to discuss. With VOX, as noted, it's the notion of INDIVIDUAL success not translating into COLLECTIVE advancement.

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Maybe the question should have asked; if Black men and women were free of the pathologies that white folk and the Negro-Con believe causes us to be in the condition we are in, would we still make arguments about racism?

This, too, is convoluted. In so doing, you give them the power to determine and define what our so-called pathologies are.

I think Ebony had a sense of what I was talking about when she said the effect and/or how we view racism would be different. No doubt it would be but the difference comes in how we perceive that difference. And the gist of the question was how those of us here -- not Whites, not Negro CON's -- would view things under those conditions.

The question really goes right to the heart of what our personal opinion-concepts of Racism and White Supremacy are. Mine is more of a system related, structural view. But as seen here, to many others, the personal level of individual or even collective White attitudes are more salient. And that, IMO, is what comes through and causes the conceptual problems with some people addressing my question squarely.

That's why I was clear in saying I wasn't talking about no David Duke shit. That's why I was clear that I was talking about a phenomenon called Racism/White Supremacy and not the mere thoughts of individuals called Racists and/or White Supremacists.

Again, I was looking for answers with depth. IMO, mere seeing Racism/White Supremacy as the mere thoughts and ideas of individuals tend to give Whites and Black CON's ammunition, since you want to put it like that.

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