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I haven't followed the current progress of reparations but I would like to add what I think should be done if reparations were actually enacted.

First of all, most of us black people wouldn't know what to do with cash money, even if by some stretch of the imagination, the government had the cold hard cash to give us. What should be done is there should be funding set aside for blacks to recieve financial aid to attend the college or university of their choice, provided they maintain the necessary GPA to remain at that college or university.

Secondly, I think that more funding should be appropriated into improving the in and around the city limits of predominately black cities in America--more affordable housing, better public transportation systems, and signing bonuses to attract new teachers in inner city school systems.

These are but a few ideas that, not only are already in progress in some cities, but also should be taken into serious consideration in other areas.
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I find it the height of condescension (was that an oxymoron?) when white people "suggest" what black people should do w/ reparations. The defendant makes no demands on what the plaintiff should do with the compensation he has won; in most legal systems (the one used in the US included). The plaintiff can burn the money if he so desired..

But as far as what reparations should include??
Here are my demands.

1. 150 yrs of income tax exempt status. Black people should be excused from any/all forms of federal, state, county, city income tax.

2. Universal Amnesty. A one time "get out of jail free card" for all black people currently incarcerated by any agency (federal, state, county and/or city). This includes the forgiveness of all probationary status as well and the reinstatement of voting rights currently withheld from convicted felons.

3. Debt Forgiveness. The payment of all debts for every item currently on the credit report for anyone of African-American decent.
Kweli4Real.

I know the get out of jail free pass, is a tuff pill to swallow. However, you have to take into consideration the generations of miss-treatment of black people (that goes on to this very day) in the American criminal-Criminal JUST-US system.

For years black people had no legal recourse, there was a period in this country where black people had "no laws/rights that a white person was bond to respect".

So this one time get out of jail free card (for every black person) balances that scale.

It is not with out precedence either, review the histories of the colony of Georgia & the country of Australia, and see how these places were originally populated by British criminals.
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HeruStar, my concepts go hand in hand w/ my ideas about repatriation (going back to Africa).

The people who recieve the clemency should be given the choice to either serve the remainder of their sentence or go to an African country. I have allready laid out my ideas about repatriation, namely Namibia being the best place for us to potentially resettle.
I will have to do some re-fresher research on Tanzania, but I took a look at every African country. I have a tentative set of criteria and they are as follows namely, 1. The country we should chose should have a coast (Atlantic and/or Indian) dose not matter. 2. Large country (in area) w/ a relatively small population.

Namibia fits this bill. Namibia borders the Atlantic ocean to it's west, it is a little over 2 times the size of California (in total area) & has a population of appx. 2 million people (the city of Los Angeles has over 3 million).

It is a very dry country (so we would need to develop ways to get water).
Tanzania does border the Indian ocean to its east, and is 3 times the size of California, however it has a total population of over 32 million people
Much too dense there.

I know we're straying off topic, but I like this idea. So tell me, do we take control of the country, or do we coexist as a seperate entity. The reason I ask is because, I don't trust much of the leadership over there, and some of their concepts of economics are all screwed up. If we placed our people in their hands, they would suck the reparation funding dry.
SLAVERY REPARATIONS:
A MISGUIDED MOVEMENT


SLAVERY REPARATIONS:
A MISGUIDED MOVEMENT

Professor Peter H. Schuck
Yale Law School
JURIST Guest Columnist
Let us stipulate -- because it is manifestly true -- that American slavery was a horrendous crime and a moral abomination. Let us further stipulate that this crime had countless victims and that their descendants still experience adverse effects today, seven generations later. Finally, stipulate that our society subscribes to an ideal of corrective justice that recognizes a legal duty compelling wrongdoers to remedy wrongfully-caused losses and to surrender wrongfully-obtained gains. Does this require the payment of reparations by the federal government to. . .somebody? Does it justify such reparations?
My answer to both questions is no -- and not just because of uncertainty about who the "somebody" would be, although as we shall see this poses a serious practical problem. My objections to reparations fall into three general categories: instrumentalist, consequentialist, and horizontal equity.
Instrumentalist objections
By instrumentalist objections, I mean problems of a practical or administrative nature that would be created by any serious effort to move from the status quo to an effective and just reparations regime. By "serious effort," I mean one that takes full account of the practical requirements of implementation. I take up the meaning of "effective and just reparations regime" in the discussion of the consequentialist and horizontal equity objections.
It may seem churlish to begin with the practical or technical obstacles to engineering a solution. These problems will surely strike some reparations advocates as too small-bore and nit-picking to mention in the same breath with the moral project of reparations. But mention them we must, especially because of the project's moral purpose. As the saying goes, if one wills an end, then one also wills the necessary means to that end. Ought implies can. Means, moreover, are not merely instrumental to desired ends; often, they also have normative dimensions of their own that must be considered. Finally, when policies that are attractive in principle fail at the level of actual implementation, the policies themselves are discredited.
Here are just a few of the numerous implementation problems that a reparations law would need to solve.
"¢ First, how would it define the beneficiary class? Would it include all blacks in the U.S. or only those descended from slaves? If the former, what about immigrant blacks and how would "black" be defined in an increasingly multi-racial society? If the latter, what about descendants of free blacks?
"¢ Second, how would the beneficiaries prove their entitlement? Absent a clear definition of black (who would judge?) or reliable documentary evidence of descent (surely lacking in most cases), what presumptions would be accepted and how could they be rebutted?
"¢ Third, would beneficiaries have to show that American slavery caused their current condition? What if they would otherwise have been killed or enslaved by their African captors, or sold to non-American masters?
"¢ Fourth, should all taxpayers bear the cost of reparations, or only those descended from slaveowners or from those who lived in the slave states? The list of such technocratic questions - none of them fanciful - could be extended endlessly.
Consequentialist objections
The actual effects of a reparations program, of course, will depend partly on the answers to these and other instrumental questions and partly on developments about which we can only speculate. To inform this speculation, however, we can draw on some historical experience with reparations or quasi-reparations programs to suggest what we might expect of this one, even conceding as I readily do that each program is different in any number of ways. Consider four such programs: post-war reparations; the September 11 compensation fund; affirmative action; and the payments to Japanese internees. (Again, space permit only the briefest characterizations). The treaties ending World War I required the Central Powers, especially Germany, to pay war reparations to the victorious Allies. In fact, the payments were grudging, delayed, incomplete, and raised new conflicts. For this reason, the payments brought little satisfaction to the recipients and the bitterness it engendered among Germans was skillfully exploited by Hitler and, according to many historians, contributed to his political support. The post-World War II reparations that Germany paid to Israel, although criticized by many as insulting and inadequate "blood money," were far more successful and helped to launch the new state.
The September 11 compensation fund is still in its early stages, but certain patterns are already evident. Although Congress assumed that this catastrophe was as sui generis as any event could be, the precedent it set has already produced an expansion of the program to include the victims of other terrorist-related disasters such as Oklahoma City and the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia. And while the relatively small share of the eligible families who have received their awards so far surely value them, many recipients complain that the compensation's failure to remedy their loss adequately has inflicted an additional dignitary harm and reopened painful wounds. Far from assuaging their suffering, it seems, monetization sometimes aggravates it -- no matter what compensation scheme is chosen.
Even though affirmative action does not entail direct payments for past discrimination, most supporters view it as a compensatory program; the greater economic opportunities it affords its beneficiaries do constitute a kind of reparations and are intended as such. After more than 30 years of affirmative action -- and my work on a comprehensive article on this subject in 20 Yale Law & Policy Review 1 (2002) -- several effects seem clear. (Many other effects, both good and bad, are more debatable).
First, the number of individuals who are now eligible for preferences dwarfs the group that they originally and most compellingly targeted -- the descendants of slaves and the victims of Jim Crow. Today, the eligible groups include other categories (women, Hispanics, Asians, and sometimes the disabled) as well as millions of immigrants of color whose ancestors did not experience slavery here.
Second, law's inherently technocratic modalities have tended to (literally) de-moralize affirmative action programs. By implementing preferences through a system of contestable definitions, measurements, sanctions, regulations, and litigation, the law has politicized, bureaucratized, and trivialized what was once a moral project. As I discuss below, this moral imperative can be served better in other ways.
Third, affirmative action's unpopularity, even among many members of the beneficiary groups, has created new barriers to inter-racial reconciliation and heightened the salience and divisiveness of race -- precisely the opposite of the advocates' originally goals.
The most attractive model for black reparations is the program for the Japanese interned during World War II. The program is very recent, of course, and I know of no analysis of its effects but let us assume that they have been altogether positive - that the recipients are satisfied by the federal government's contrition and compensation, while the program is causing other Americans to reflect on the lessons of that dark chapter of our history. Perhaps this putative success augurs well for a black reparations program but I doubt it, for reasons already discussed. The surviving Japanese internees are a relatively small, easily identifiable group of victims who had been harmed in specific ways by a discrete event limited in time and space. None of the instrumentalist objections mentioned above applies to this group; for example, the beneficiaries are the surviving victims themselves, not innumerable, far-flung, anonymous descendants up to seven generations removed from us.
The German compensation schemes for Holocaust victims and slave laborers are not a close model for black reparations either, for many of the same reasons that distinguish the Japanese internment program. These German schemes, moreover, resulted from the settlement of strong legal claims based on unjust enrichment of specific banks, insurers, employers, and other companies that inflicted calculable losses on specific individuals and families.
Horizontal equity
Justice and fairness demand that similar cases be treated alike. We all know that every case is different in some respect from every other case, that the criteria of factual relevance and similarity are neither self-evident nor self-defining, and that classifying cases into categories for purposes of comparison is often a matter of judgment. We also know that the victims of grave injustice -- slavery, the Holocaust, other genocides, enforced subordination -- often regard their suffering as distinctive, if not unique; they tend to resist the notion that the victims of other grave injustices suffered more or in ways more deserving of remedy. To cite an extreme and maudlin but perhaps revealing example, Daniel Jonah Goldhagen, in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners, argues that even slaves were treated as less "socially dead" (in Orlando Patterson's phrase) than Jews were in Germany during the Nazi period.
The competition for greatest victimhood is almost inevitable both for political reasons and for a legal one; standard equal protection doctrine invites such comparisons in order to determine the appropriate standard of review. This competition is not an edifying sight -- and not just because we lack a common metric for measuring and comparing injustices of this kind. It often descends into an ugly struggle for public resources, recognition, recrimination, and moral status among people who have already suffered enough and who should be the last to view injustice as a zero-sum game. Is slavery the greatest injustice in American history? Probably so, but I would not expect Native-Americans whose ancestors were systematically exterminated by the U.S. Army to readily cede the point. Were the indentured servants of the colonial period or the Chinese coolies of the nineteenth century more harshly treated or less deserving of reparations than the Japanese internees? What about the internees' Japanese ancestors who were not permitted to own farmland, marry whites, or enter professions? What about the Irish immigrants who were forced by hateful discrimination to live in conditions arguably as degraded as slave cabins? Should we view their whiteness as an emblem of privilege sufficient to redeem their long suffering without further recompense?
I do not know the answers to these questions -- or even how to think about answering them. There is much to be said (as equal protection doctrine allows) for taking one step at a time toward a more just society. My point, then, is not that giving reparations to the descendants of black slaves would require, legally or otherwise, that they be given to the descendants of liquidated Native-Americans or near-enslaved coolies, much less that the former should not be first in line. Rather, it is that the politics and psychology of the competition for victimhood will make it difficult to stop there, and that the very effort to justify this stopping point will arouse new bitterness and magnify existing feelings of injustice.
Conclusion
The movement for black reparations, however well-intended, is misguided. Indeed, it is perverse in its propensity to discredit the very ideal of corrective justice that it invokes, to aggravate bitterness rather than assuage it, and to make reconciliation more difficult. Our obligation now is to engage with and learn from the past, and then to move forward by turning the page. As we turn it, we must not forget that we are leaving behind an endless catalog of crimes, tears, and scars of the lash, of prejudice, and of poverty. We must leave this human misery and injustice behind, but not out of mind or conscience. We already have a long agenda to challenge our moral faculties and remedial imaginations as we assess our responsibilities to one another both now and in the future.

Peter H. Schuck is the Simeon E. Baldwin Professor of Law at Yale, and author of the forthcoming Diversity in America: Keeping Government at a Safe Distance (Harvard/Belknap, April 2003) and The Limits of Law: Essays on Democratic Governance (Westview, 2000).

December 9, 2002
****************
Dream on, Reparations for slavery will not happen.

......Besides there are too many other incidents to seek redress than to waste finite valuable resources seeking reparations for slavery that will not happen!

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:
Much too dense there.

I know we're straying off topic, but I like this idea. So tell me, do we take control of the country, or do we coexist as a seperate entity. The reason I ask is because, I don't trust much of the leadership over there, and some of their concepts of economics are all screwed up. If we placed our people in their hands, they would suck the reparation funding dry.


**That is a good question.....there will definitely need to be some accountability and control issues addressed.....
quote:
Let us stipulate -- because it is manifestly true -- that American slavery was a horrendous crime and a moral abomination. Let us further stipulate that this crime had countless victims and that their descendants still experience adverse effects today, seven generations later. Finally, stipulate that our society subscribes to an ideal of corrective justice that recognizes a legal duty compelling wrongdoers to remedy wrongfully-caused losses and to surrender wrongfully-obtained gains


Oh, I never saw the BUT coming on this one

quote:
Does this require the payment of reparations by the federal government to. . .somebody? Does it justify such reparations?


Complex Cause
You've committed this Causal Fallacy already. MBM and others have already pointed out to you the many other arguments for reperation, it matters not that you have a Yale professor committing two logical errors, with the other one being a Straw Man argument.

quote:
By instrumentalist objections, I mean problems of a practical or administrative nature that would be created by any serious effort to move from the status quo to an effective and just reparations regime. By "serious effort," I mean one that takes full account of the practical requirements of implementation. I take up the meaning of "effective and just reparations regime" in the discussion of the consequentialist and horizontal equity objections


So it's impractical to think that the world's superpower can implement something as easy as reparations. By "serious" effort he meant that Blacks are hardly worth the time. I'm pretty sure these "obstacles" he speaks of are no more harder to overcome than the obstacles that the founding fathers faced writing the Constitution. Or maybe their were just intellectually superior. For they did write "All men are created equal", something that people like this professor still can't grasp.

quote:
Ought implies can. Means, moreover, are not merely instrumental to desired ends; often, they also have normative dimensions of their own that must be considered. Finally, when policies that are attractive in principle fail at the level of actual implementation, the policies themselves are discredited.
Here are just a few of the numerous implementation problems that a reparations law would need to solve.


I guess that settles it, the Yale professor feels like we can't, so we can't. Give me a break.

quote:
First, how would it define the beneficiary class? Would it include all blacks in the U.S. or only those descended from slaves? If the former, what about immigrant blacks and how would "black" be defined in an increasingly multi-racial society? If the latter, what about descendants of free blacks?


That's not a decision that a white should stress about. WE decide the Beneficiary. This supremist view is sickening. Lie to, rob, steal, kill, and rape our people, finally realize their error, and tell us THEY can't repay us because THEY can't figure out whom THEY want to repay. THEY weren't the one's suffering those injustices, so THEY DON'T decide. WE DECIDE.

quote:
Second, how would the beneficiaries prove their entitlement? Absent a clear definition of black (who would judge?) or reliable documentary evidence of descent (surely lacking in most cases), what presumptions would be accepted and how could they be rebutted?


Swindle us. Then tell us to PROVE we got swindled. That's hardly characteristic of a nation that prides itself on integrity. You know what you did, own up to it, and stop trying to weasel out of it.

quote:
Third, would beneficiaries have to show that American slavery caused their current condition? What if they would otherwise have been killed or enslaved by their African captors, or sold to non-American masters


So we should be thanking our lucky stars that YOU were our captors!
Dear God forgive me for I almost lost my religion on this one. THIS IS SOME RACIST BULLCRAP!!!!!!! To even imply that our condition was made better by being forced over here on ships is UTTERLY RIDICULOUS, even coming from a so-called professor.

quote:
Fourth, should all taxpayers bear the cost of reparations, or only those descended from slaveowners or from those who lived in the slave states? The list of such technocratic questions - none of them fanciful - could be extended endlessly.


Should all taxpayers bear the cost of this war? Answer that one. Every black man that lived during slavery is directly or indirectly affected. Just because few escaped to various states and Canada, doesn't exclude them and their families. For had they not escaped then then slippery slope or butterfly affect of things that would've or could've happened will definitely point to a situation that makes blacks even worse off.

quote:
Far from assuaging their suffering, it seems, monetization sometimes aggravates it -- no matter what compensation scheme is chosen.


He can save this tired speculation for someone with a small-minded selfish mentality. Why don't we speculate how those reparations revitalized, rather than pointing out the insignificant number of complaints, which mind you are made mostly buy the government. Ofcourse their not happy about recompensating people for their wrongs. By the way that appears like another causal fallacy, called wrong direction. Reparations is not the cause of aggravation, it's the result.

quote:
Even though affirmative action does not entail direct payments for past discrimination, most supporters view it as a compensatory program; the greater economic opportunities it affords its beneficiaries do constitute a kind of reparations and are intended as such. After more than 30 years of affirmative action -- and my work on a comprehensive article on this subject in 20 Yale Law & Policy Review 1 (2002) -- several effects seem clear. (Many other effects, both good and bad, are more debatable).
First, the number of individuals who are now eligible for preferences dwarfs the group that they originally and most compellingly targeted -- the descendants of slaves and the victims of Jim Crow. Today, the eligible groups include other categories (women, Hispanics, Asians, and sometimes the disabled) as well as millions of immigrants of color whose ancestors did not experience slavery here


So we shouldn't have reparations because they wrote ambiguous laws, so that they can keep their white hands in the pot.

quote:
Second, law's inherently technocratic modalities have tended to (literally) de-moralize affirmative action programs. By implementing preferences through a system of contestable definitions, measurements, sanctions, regulations, and litigation, the law has politicized, bureaucratized, and trivialized what was once a moral project. As I discuss below, this moral imperative can be served better in other ways


I don't subscribe to his philosophy on laws or morals. Neither should anyone else considering what he's displayed thusfar. Reparations is already a trivial issue to the white man, so I guess what's left of this statement is that reparations will be bureaucratized and politicized. NO DUH.

quote:
Third, affirmative action's unpopularity, even among many members of the beneficiary groups, has created new barriers to inter-racial reconciliation and heightened the salience and divisiveness of race -- precisely the opposite of the advocates' originally goals


Since when was reparations popular. Last time I check WE were the minority. Anything that WE seek can hardly be considered popular in this nation. Popularity is irrelevant.


quote:
The surviving Japanese internees are a relatively small, easily identifiable group of victims who had been harmed in specific ways by a discrete event limited in time and space. None of the instrumentalist objections mentioned above applies to this group; for example, the beneficiaries are the surviving victims themselves, not innumerable, far-flung, anonymous descendants up to seven generations removed from us.


And this is an argument against paying what you owe because? Just because you pay the small bills first doesn't mean that those larger bills will just disappear. Tell you what, go ahead and file bankruptcy for the whole nation, since you know that they can't pay.

quote:
Executioners, argues that even slaves were treated as less "socially dead" (in Orlando Patterson's phrase) than Jews were in Germany during the Nazi period.


Why is this relevant?

quote:
Is slavery the greatest injustice in American history?


Why is this relevant?

quote:
I do not know the answers to these questions -- or even how to think about answering them


Why ask then? To prove a point? To prove that your view of morality is hardly relevant or consistent with the economic, social, and political arguments in favor of reparations.

quote:
The movement for black reparations, however well-intended, is misguided. Indeed, it is perverse in its propensity to discredit the very ideal of corrective justice that it invokes, to aggravate bitterness rather than assuage it, and to make reconciliation more difficult.


Your logic is misguided, better yet misdirected. I already pointed out, and IMHO, it's not about reconciliation. It's about Just and Rightful compensation. Do we owe you reconciliation?

quote:
Our obligation now is to engage with and learn from the past, and then to move forward by turning the page. As we turn it, we must not forget that we are leaving behind an endless catalog of crimes, tears, and scars of the lash, of prejudice, and of poverty


Yeah you can turn the page right after you give me my check.

quote:
We already have a long agenda to challenge our moral faculties and remedial imaginations as we assess our responsibilities to one another both now and in the future.


And the truth comes out. Whites don't want reparations on THEIR AGENDA. We'll how about you assess how irresponsibly you've addressed your debt to the very backbone of this nation, past, present, and future. You'll forever progress off the sweat of our backs.
back to the topic of ideal reparations--Firstly, I propose instead that the United States government mandate a series of grants that will allow all eligible blacks to go to a college, university or trade school of their choice. I think it would only be fair that only eligible blacks qualify for this educational funding since whites already benefit from pell grants, scholarships, and aid from the UNCF by going to HBCU's. I, for one would be very happy to have the government pay for my attainment of a PhD in Industrial Psychology. The one drop of black blood theory could also apply if anyone that isn't of obvious African descent would be willing to undergo blood testing to prove their ethnicity. With implementation of these grants blacks could benefit greatly from educational empowerment, thereby becoming more productive, responsible citizens that can contribute to this nation's economy.

Secondly, I propose that the government should mandate a series of grants to build attractive contemporary housing that will bring the middle to upper middle class blacks back into cities that are suffering from a declining population. The terms of the grants could also specify that black contractors be given first priority when bidding for contracts to build these inner city homesteads. In conjunction with these grants city officials should be allowed to assist in cultivating existing black owned business and encourage banking institutions to fund potential black entrepreneurs into opening small businesses in the city. I think it's only fair that we receive this type of reparations considering that blacks contribute more that 700 billion dollars a year to this country as consumers. Of course I left a lot of avenues open for discussion by anyone that would be interested in expounding on what I have already talked about in this post or offer their two cents on a relative topic. Feel free to participate.
While you're good at percentages, tell me what percentage supported Japanese reparations, Native american reparations or any other type?

Your weak argument is getting weaker every time you use conflicting arguments. What percentage of the taxpayers voted for, stood behind, or supported those aforementioned reparations?

I intentionally asked twice in two separate ways because I want two separate answers, since you have conflicting attacks on reparations.

First you support saying that the number of blacks is too much to support reparations, then you say that there is not a significant percentage to support reparations claims. Which one? Pick please? I'm not going to allow you to do both. If you do, I will force you to see the conflict in your argument.
You and the average tax payer can dream on if you think these weak arguments will defeat ANY bill. You and the average taxpayer can continue to argue that this War is beneficial to the globe. You and the average taxpayer can continue to argue that we need more prisons and less funding for schools. You and the average taxpayer can argue that we need more multi-billion dollar aircrafts. You and the average taxpayer can also argue that we need to cut taxes AND increase spending on the war.
My quick note about what is or should be IDEAL Reparations centers around the simple focus already contemplated:

quote:
A good academic exercise would be to develop a plan for how reparations could be used collectively to enable the African community to become independent from racist institutions and economically self-sufficient for at least seven generations.

From the How would reparations be paid? section:
http://www.ncobra.com/ncobra_info.htm
So the issue I have with a lot of things people propose as "ideal" Reparations, etc. is the lack of focus on and specific attention-intention to the question of How To Ensure "Independence" and Self-Sufficiency.

Grants for education, tax breaks, etc. alone without systematic, institutional, structural changes pretty much becomes just another version of what people think Reparations As Cash Checks to individuals would be... Short Lived and of little (collective) enduring transforming effect.
What I have a problem with, is people that refuse to seek clarification--people that chose, rather, to jump to conclusions with incomplete evidence.

I don't care what the problem is--in order to come up with a solution, you need to identify the problem. What I offered were merely some ideas on what to do through reparations--not an end all, be all, solution. The point that was made was not to expect monetary compensation for services rendered through slavery.

The point is to rebuild or, in many cases, build an infrastructure in the black community--education, black entreprenuership, a viable black political base, and revitalize the black community.

Furthermore, I have a problem with people that complain about what somebody else did right or wrong but they aren't making any contributions themselves.
quote:
What I have a problem with, is people that refuse to seek clarification--people that chose, rather, to jump to conclusions with incomplete evidence.
And who here has jumped to conclusions about something you've said, IRON~?

Not I...

quote:
I don't care what the problem is--in order to come up with a solution, you need to identify the problem.
That's exactly the point of my post, to simply say things listed do not reflect the problem as well identified.
What other problem is there to identify than what I have already stated? If you know then post it instead of just riding on what I said, which leads me to this:

quote:
A good academic exercise would be to develop a plan for how reparations could be used collectively to enable the African community to become independent from racist institutions and economically self-sufficient for at least seven generations.


How is what you quoted any different from what I said at the begining of this discussion, what I said in the May 16th post, and the previous post I made, which reiterated this point:

quote:
The point is to rebuild or, in many cases, build an infrastructure in the black community--education, black entreprenuership, a viable black political base, and revitalize the black community.
Black Entreprenuership does not nessarily suggest "independence" from "racists" institutions. Black Capitalism can and may very well serve White American, White Supremacy Capitalism more than it does Black America.

Provisions/considerations in your idea to avoid or eventually counteract that?

A "viable Black Political Base" based on what??
What will make what you envision as "viable" actually independent or rather not circumscribed by or circumventable by White Racist Political Institutions?

Provisions/considerations in your idea to avoid or eventually counteract that?

My point is the idea of mere government "grants" by definition subjects the whole Reparations plan of your to those institutions that may be or are the RACIST INSTITUTIONS which, as NCOBRA suggest, we should become independent of.

How exactly will we become independent of those institutions when we, by your design, intended to use those institutions ad infinitum via grants, etc.?

You mention "education"... My thing is WHOSE EDUCATION? When and where does the Liberating Education begin? The Independent or fully out of choice and not coerced necessity education come in?

Provisions/considerations in your idea to address that?

My thing is how can we assume these things you mention will have their desired effect unless we assert and insert as much control over the process to ensure it does? What happens when the Education grants only help certain Black individuals and not Blacks collectively?

What happens when the revitalizing projects are undersupported by those Blacks who take their education and run to the farthest White Community? What when the initial revitalization comes to a close and has to be replicated/duplicated in the next generation?
Your ideals are a little bit too militant and separatist sounding for my taste. Achieving independence from whites, huh? How can any race of human being on this planet achieve independence from whites?

What I want to know, Nmaginate, is what are your ideas for achieving such independence? Why would it be necessary? How can we assume what I've proposed would work? Hmmmm, that's why I titled this discusion "Ideal."

However, to answer your question, to some degree, just look at the progress of cities like Atlanta, Birmingham, Charolette--a majority black city council, black female mayor, police chief, a myriad of black owned businesses, inner city development--many of the things I've mentioned are already in effect in some cities.

This notion of black independence is a little too far off. What is important right now is eduational and financial empowerment. First of all, we need to figure out how to keep children in school. We need to figure out how to secure control over the 700 billion dollars we blacks spend as consumers every year. Right now, we need to learn how to read and write. Independence can be worried about later.
quote:
Originally posted by HeruStar:

quote:
Let us stipulate -- because it is manifestly true -- that American slavery was a horrendous crime and a moral abomination. Let us further stipulate that this crime had countless victims and that their descendants still experience adverse effects today, seven generations later. Finally, stipulate that our society subscribes to an ideal of corrective justice that recognizes a legal duty compelling wrongdoers to remedy wrongfully-caused losses and to surrender wrongfully-obtained gains


Oh, I never saw the BUT coming on this one

quote:
Does this require the payment of reparations by the federal government to. . .somebody? Does it justify such reparations?


Complex Cause
You've committed this Causal Fallacy already. MBM and others have already pointed out to you the many other arguments for reperation, it matters not that you have a Yale professor committing two logical errors, with the other one being a Straw Man argument.

quote:
By instrumentalist objections, I mean problems of a practical or administrative nature that would be created by any serious effort to move from the status quo to an effective and just reparations regime. By "serious effort," I mean one that takes full account of the practical requirements of implementation. I take up the meaning of "effective and just reparations regime" in the discussion of the consequentialist and horizontal equity objections


So it's impractical to think that the world's superpower can implement something as easy as reparations. By "serious" effort he meant that Blacks are hardly worth the time. I'm pretty sure these "obstacles" he speaks of are no more harder to overcome than the obstacles that the founding fathers faced writing the Constitution. Or maybe their were just intellectually superior. For they did write "All men are created equal", something that people like this professor still can't grasp.

quote:
Ought implies can. Means, moreover, are not merely instrumental to desired ends; often, they also have normative dimensions of their own that must be considered. Finally, when policies that are attractive in principle fail at the level of actual implementation, the policies themselves are discredited.
Here are just a few of the numerous implementation problems that a reparations law would need to solve.


I guess that settles it, the Yale professor feels like we can't, so we can't. Give me a break.

quote:
First, how would it define the beneficiary class? Would it include all blacks in the U.S. or only those descended from slaves? If the former, what about immigrant blacks and how would "black" be defined in an increasingly multi-racial society? If the latter, what about descendants of free blacks?


That's not a decision that a white should stress about. WE decide the Beneficiary. This supremist view is sickening. Lie to, rob, steal, kill, and rape our people, finally realize their error, and tell us THEY can't repay us because THEY can't figure out whom THEY want to repay. THEY weren't the one's suffering those injustices, so THEY DON'T decide. WE DECIDE.

quote:
Second, how would the beneficiaries prove their entitlement? Absent a clear definition of black (who would judge?) or reliable documentary evidence of descent (surely lacking in most cases), what presumptions would be accepted and how could they be rebutted?


Swindle us. Then tell us to PROVE we got swindled. That's hardly characteristic of a nation that prides itself on integrity. You know what you did, own up to it, and stop trying to weasel out of it.

quote:
Third, would beneficiaries have to show that American slavery caused their current condition? What if they would otherwise have been killed or enslaved by their African captors, or sold to non-American masters


So we should be thanking our lucky stars that YOU were our captors!
Dear God forgive me for I almost lost my religion on this one. THIS IS SOME RACIST BULLCRAP!!!!!!! To even imply that our condition was made better by being forced over here on ships is UTTERLY RIDICULOUS, even coming from a so-called professor.

quote:
Fourth, should all taxpayers bear the cost of reparations, or only those descended from slaveowners or from those who lived in the slave states? The list of such technocratic questions - none of them fanciful - could be extended endlessly.


Should all taxpayers bear the cost of this war? Answer that one. Every black man that lived during slavery is directly or indirectly affected. Just because few escaped to various states and Canada, doesn't exclude them and their families. For had they not escaped then then slippery slope or butterfly affect of things that would've or could've happened will definitely point to a situation that makes blacks even worse off.

quote:
Far from assuaging their suffering, it seems, monetization sometimes aggravates it -- no matter what compensation scheme is chosen.


He can save this tired speculation for someone with a small-minded selfish mentality. Why don't we speculate how those reparations revitalized, rather than pointing out the insignificant number of complaints, which mind you are made mostly buy the government. Ofcourse their not happy about recompensating people for their wrongs. By the way that appears like another causal fallacy, called wrong direction. Reparations is not the cause of aggravation, it's the result.

quote:
Even though affirmative action does not entail direct payments for past discrimination, most supporters view it as a compensatory program; the greater economic opportunities it affords its beneficiaries do constitute a kind of reparations and are intended as such. After more than 30 years of affirmative action -- and my work on a comprehensive article on this subject in 20 Yale Law & Policy Review 1 (2002) -- several effects seem clear. (Many other effects, both good and bad, are more debatable).
First, the number of individuals who are now eligible for preferences dwarfs the group that they originally and most compellingly targeted -- the descendants of slaves and the victims of Jim Crow. Today, the eligible groups include other categories (women, Hispanics, Asians, and sometimes the disabled) as well as millions of immigrants of color whose ancestors did not experience slavery here


So we shouldn't have reparations because they wrote ambiguous laws, so that they can keep their white hands in the pot.

quote:
Second, law's inherently technocratic modalities have tended to (literally) de-moralize affirmative action programs. By implementing preferences through a system of contestable definitions, measurements, sanctions, regulations, and litigation, the law has politicized, bureaucratized, and trivialized what was once a moral project. As I discuss below, this moral imperative can be served better in other ways


I don't subscribe to his philosophy on laws or morals. Neither should anyone else considering what he's displayed thusfar. Reparations is already a trivial issue to the white man, so I guess what's left of this statement is that reparations will be bureaucratized and politicized. NO DUH.

quote:
Third, affirmative action's unpopularity, even among many members of the beneficiary groups, has created new barriers to inter-racial reconciliation and heightened the salience and divisiveness of race -- precisely the opposite of the advocates' originally goals


Since when was reparations popular. Last time I check WE were the minority. Anything that WE seek can hardly be considered popular in this nation. Popularity is irrelevant.


quote:
The surviving Japanese internees are a relatively small, easily identifiable group of victims who had been harmed in specific ways by a discrete event limited in time and space. None of the instrumentalist objections mentioned above applies to this group; for example, the beneficiaries are the surviving victims themselves, not innumerable, far-flung, anonymous descendants up to seven generations removed from us.


And this is an argument against paying what you owe because? Just because you pay the small bills first doesn't mean that those larger bills will just disappear. Tell you what, go ahead and file bankruptcy for the whole nation, since you know that they can't pay.

quote:
Executioners, argues that even slaves were treated as less "socially dead" (in Orlando Patterson's phrase) than Jews were in Germany during the Nazi period.


Why is this relevant?

quote:
Is slavery the greatest injustice in American history?


Why is this relevant?

quote:
I do not know the answers to these questions -- or even how to think about answering them


Why ask then? To prove a point? To prove that your view of morality is hardly relevant or consistent with the economic, social, and political arguments in favor of reparations.

quote:
The movement for black reparations, however well-intended, is misguided. Indeed, it is perverse in its propensity to discredit the very ideal of corrective justice that it invokes, to aggravate bitterness rather than assuage it, and to make reconciliation more difficult.


Your logic is misguided, better yet misdirected. I already pointed out, and IMHO, it's not about reconciliation. It's about Just and Rightful compensation. Do we owe you reconciliation?

quote:
Our obligation now is to engage with and learn from the past, and then to move forward by turning the page. As we turn it, we must not forget that we are leaving behind an endless catalog of crimes, tears, and scars of the lash, of prejudice, and of poverty


Yeah you can turn the page right after you give me my check.

quote:
We already have a long agenda to challenge our moral faculties and remedial imaginations as we assess our responsibilities to one another both now and in the future.


And the truth comes out. Whites don't want reparations on THEIR AGENDA. We'll how about you assess how irresponsibly you've addressed your debt to the very backbone of this nation, past, present, and future. You'll forever progress off the sweat of our backs.


HeruStar - MAJOR props to your analysis here! Of course I am biased, but your dissection of the article is absolutely superb! tfro
quote:
Your ideals are a little bit too militant and separatist sounding for my taste...
IRON~

You're the one who responded to the NCOBRA note and asked: How is what you quoted any different...?

The words INDEPENDENCE and SELF-SUFFICIENCY were explicit and central. Now, you're saying its TOO MILITANT and SEPARATIST?

Please....

quote:
...Why would it be necessary?
That too was explicit in the NCOBRA note and what I said to you.
    NCOBRA:
    ...to enable the African community to become independent from racist institutions

    NMAG on Political Base:
    What will make what you envision [something that's] not circumscribed by or circumventable by White Racist Political Institutions?
You will also note that my very first comment mentioned SYSTEMATIC, STRUCTURAL and INSTITUTIONAL changes were necessary, by definition, to make Reparations meaningful and lasting.

I contended (and still do) that without systematic/structural changes that the Reparations you propose could stand to be wasted in a way similar to Cash To Individuals because it hardly seeks to change anything fundamental. Seems to me ideas like yours are a recasting of Affirmative Action to some degree. So, obviously, I define or look at the Problem Of Reparations differently than you do.

To me, it makes no sense to work for Reparations and not contemplate how to reduce Black people's exposure to basically the same RACIST INSTITUTIONS that caused the need for Reparations and have delayed the acquisition of Reparations for so long. You know, carry on more or less like Business As Usual as if there isn't going to be a RACIST RE-ACTION or attempt to backdoor obstructions and obstacles to Black people trying to make the best use out of Reparations.

quote:
This notion of black independence is a little too far off. What is important right now is eduational and financial empowerment. First of all, we need to figure out how to keep children in school. We need to figure out how to secure control over the 700 billion dollars we blacks spend as consumers every year. Right now, we need to learn how to read and write. Independence can be worried about later.
Disingenuous statement from you. You had no objection or issue with the term "Independence" initially. Now, all you're doing is equivocating - changing even the meaning you must have assumed earlier to something you can label as "militant", "separatist", "a little too far off" and "something that can be WORRIED about later".

Pretty funny how that happened. And you should be honest:

quote:
How can we assume what I've proposed would work? Hmmmm, that's why I titled this discusion "Ideal."
Well, not only did you try to use Atlanta as a model that suggests your idea "works" but you want to claim your right to talk about the IDEAL while trying to dismiss what I have listed as IDEAL for very specific reasons.

What I have offered for as consideration is no different from what you have, save the fact that, unlike you, I'm making an argument based on a real position people like you hold. Very few people look at Reparations simply as a Cash Payment proposition. NCOBRA certainly does not and I think they have been integral in bringing Reparations to the fore. It is exactly the "MILITANT" among us who have made and kept Reparations (for Slavery, Jim Crow) as an issue.

Unless you actually think Atlanta et al are figuring out, have figured out "How To Keep Out Children In School and Recycle Black Dollars", etc. (the mere fact that there are Black elected officials, etc. doesn't translate into the former) then I suggest there is still room for analysis.

If not, then quote the Educational Well Being of Black School Children in Atlanta. If not, quote the State Of Black Economics in Atlanta in terms of how Black Consumer Power is being maximized in Atlanta.

Logically, the Black City Council, Black Police Chief and even Black Business don't automatically translate into anything you suggested. That is, unless you can show how Atlanta et al are and have been improving the state of Black Education and overall Retention/Recycling Of Black Economics at a rate that shows undeniable and uninterrupted improvement.

Perhaps you know but I'd like to see you demonstrate that in terms of EDUCATION...

BTW, I have proposed nothing that's SEPARATIST.
Please try your best to resist pigeonholing when you feel you don't have any other argument. Again, you didn't seem to characterize or regard my initial post (citing NCOBRA) as "militant" or "separatist". In fact, you tried to call it "the same"... So what's up with that?
Whoa, whoa, whoa, Nmainate--I'm trying to figure out something--let's say, for sake of argument, that the U.S. government decides to go through with the plan of reparations, whatever plan that may be--where do you think the money or funding or grants or however you want to put it, is going to come from? The sky?


I'm saying this because it sounds to me like you're putting the cart before the horse. --accept payback for services rendered through slavery, say, "Thanks whitey, now fuck you." and think everything is going to be okay.

If reparations were to see fruition we would have to accept that racist money from 'the man' in order to get off of the ground. Even the HBCU's have to abide by the same accreditation and criteria as predominately white colleges and universities, so, are they, too, considered racist institutions?

The miliant and separatist part comes in where you think we can go from point "A" to point "Z" without first taking on "B" through "Y". How do we traverse from A to Z without 'whitey' being involved in some way, shape or form (Yeah, I know this sounds like the house nigger not wanting to see slavery end for fear of having to figure out how to fend for himself but there are totally different varibles in this case)?

How do you propose we educate ourselves so that we may obtain the necessary credentials in order to be marketable, and obtain gainful employment? Go back to the old ways, hide out, and matriculate in church basements, cellars and ditches?

Your long term goal of self-sufficiency and independence sounds nice, however, how can the black race achieve independence, and self-sufficiency from these racist institutions without, first, having the opportunity to be oriented to the inner workings of how this white dominated society operates--you have to learn from your enemy before you can overcome them. Education, in itself, is liberating--where you obtain your education is irrelevent, it's what you do with that education that counts.


As far as me using cities like Atlanta and Birmingham as an example of the progress a city can make with a predominately black infrastructure--it's merely a begining. You know every action has an equal and opposite reaction--we are up against overcoming over 200 years of slavery and Jim Crow laws.

There won't be a significant and across the board change for quite a few years to come, no matter how many black politicians, entreprenuers or professionals are in different levels of authority, nevertheless, what has been achieved so far is working or there wouldn't be such a great migration back to the south from the north by the descendants of blacks that originally migrated north.

Now, as far as education goes, that is an entirely different subject altogether and deserves a forum in itself just like this forum for reparations was created. There are so many problems in public education--nationwide homogenization or the lack thereof, high stakes testing, no child left behind, poor funding, inadequate pay for teachers, low representation of minorities as educators, failing school systems that are, thereby, turned over to governmental control, overrepresentation of black students in special education--that you can't just talk about education in the term of black. There are problems in the black community that have to be dealt with first.

This is why the dropout rate amongst black youth is so high--you can't effectively teach a body of students and be entirely successful when the majority of these black students are overwhelmed with the lures of society, peer pressure, poor parenting, broken homes, and a harsh environment. Those issues have to be dealt with first before the inconsistencies in the effectiveness of education can be dealt with or perhaps, both can be dealt with simultaneously in some cases.
quote:
Your long term goal of self-sufficiency and independence sounds nice, however, how can the black race achieve independence, and self-sufficiency from these racist institutions without, first, having the opportunity to be oriented to the inner workings of how this white dominated society operates--you have to learn from your enemy before you can overcome them


You underestimate the original pioneers of civilization; Africans. Without us, our "enemy" would be two steps from anarchy. WE ARE civilization, WE TRANSCEND capitalism, socialism, or any other ism the money grubbing westerners can think of.
And, HeruStar, the original pioneers of Africa have nothing to do with the lack of unity we are dealing with as a people today--you overestimate contemporary African society. If it was that easy to transcend our "enemy" we, as a people, would have done it decades ago. You have to take steps in the act of transcending.

Don't worry, HeruStar, it doesn't make you any less black or a conspirator to admit the truth--we black people are more divided now more than ever. Oh, and as far as this "access" goes, what do you mean by this, "access?"
quote:
Don't worry, HeruStar, it doesn't make you any less black or a conspirator to admit the truth--we black people are more divided now more than ever. Oh, and as far as this "access" goes, what do you mean by this, "access?"



You're definitely entitled to your opinion.

Access to better schools, better housing, and a higher quality of life. If you change the individuals environment/surroundings, you give the individual hope and confidence. This "nigga" mentality you imply is a direct result of our environment which is underdeveloped.
quote:
I'm saying this because it sounds to me like you're putting the cart before the horse. --accept payback for services rendered through slavery, say, "Thanks whitey, now fuck you." and think everything is going to be okay.
What are you talking about?

Point out when and where something I said amounted to "fuck you Whitey". You're still hung on some imagined idea in your head about SEPARATISM.

But I guess you suggest that we "Stay In Bed With WHITEY"... or whatever you feel our relationship with "Whitey" is suppose to be in order for "Whitey" to feel like we're not trying "fuck" him.

Note To IRONHORSE... "Whitey" already thinks Reparations is an attempt to "fuck" him. DUH!!!

I guess if we ask nicely "Whitey" won't attempt to, as they say, "Roll Back The Gains"...

Apparently, you seem to think when and if "Whitey" grants then "Whitey" we act honorably throughout the whole process. Seems to me you have a delusional view of "Whitey". Apparently you think "Whitey" will be your friend if you act "right". You know, don't make it seem like you're saying "fuck you".

Note again, "Whitey" already thinks, promotes and propagandize Reparations as being a scam and a big attempt to "fuck" him.

So what are you talking about?

quote:
The miliant and separatist part comes in where you think we can go from point "A" to point "Z" without first taking on "B" through "Y". How do we traverse from A to Z without 'whitey' being involved in some way
I said nothing about "Whitey" not being involved. I've merely stipulated to us having the foresight/vision to stipulate how "Whitey" should be involved instead of "Whitey" directing how Reparations will be spent, what will be availed to us, etc. ...or... us having the sense to not expect as much in terms of what Reparations can do for us since it seems you would rather circumscribe the way we employ/implement Reparations around things that won't make "Whitey" mad... as if... (see Note above)
    Big Grin "Yeah, I know this sounds like the house nigger not wanting to see slavery end for fear of having to figure out how to fend for himself..." Big Grin
quote:
How do you propose we educate ourselves so that we may obtain the necessary credentials in order to be marketable, and obtain gainful employment?
What are you talking about?

Do you know what a STRAW MAN is?
I suggest you stop arguing, making statements from a position you attribute to me that you... that you MADE UP.

How do you propose to make a relevant comment?
That's what I would like to know...

quote:
You know every action has an equal and opposite reaction--we are up against overcoming over 200 years of slavery and Jim Crow laws.
And that's exactly my point. How exactly does what you propose establish something, some structure that can at least appear to mitigate or insulate against WHITE BACKLASH?

Again, how is it that you want the privilege/freedom to talk about the IDEAL but I cannot? How is it that you claim to have, in essence, adequately "defined the problem" when you have not taken into account how INDEPENDENCE - i.e. control over our collective destiny - was the chief thing lost?

Now, I understand we are in a society where we are not alone and there is no functional option, at least at this time, where we (whatever number of Blacks who want to "separate") can go. Contrary to your STRAW MAN logic, I have not proposed separation.

I have, however, attempted to address or recognize the very thing I quoted from NCOBRA. Again, I'm trying to see how it was that you were so quick to suggest that my initial comments on the quote were no different from what you had/have said. Now, you have done a complete 180' and you're posing all sorts of unfounded rhetorical questions that it really only reflect in your inability to address the very thing I quoted.
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quote:
Access to better schools, better housing, and a higher quality of life. If you change the individuals environment/surroundings, you give the individual hope and confidence. This "nigga" mentality you imply is a direct result of our environment which is underdeveloped.


Hmmmmm, HeruStar, I believe I already clarified the need for improving the surroundings in disadvantaged, predominately black environments as I stated earlier:

quote:
The point is to rebuild or, in many cases, build an infrastructure in the black community--education, black entreprenuership, a viable black political base, and revitalize the black community.
Access is how I approach "dealing" with those issued you mentioned. Your views are inconsistent with eachother in the fact that you agree with giving us access, but you seem to disagree that it is a "politicaly viable" solution. Your dissent stems from:

quote:
As far as me using cities like Atlanta and Birmingham as an example of the progress a city can make with a predominately black infrastructure--it's merely a begining. You know every action has an equal and opposite reaction--we are up against overcoming over 200 years of slavery and Jim Crow laws.


quote:
you can't just talk about education in the term of black. There are problems in the black community that have to be dealt with first.


quote:
This is why the dropout rate amongst black youth is so high--you can't effectively teach a body of students and be entirely successful when the majority of these black students are overwhelmed with the lures of society, peer pressure, poor parenting, broken homes, and a harsh environment.
You know, Nmaginate, instead of trying to find what you think are errors in my logic, you should focus more on the conversation at hand, which is why it is so easy for you to get sidetracked--you try to cover too many issues you disagree with and compound your confusion and frustration by push your own covert operation of trying to make my end of the debate sound "irrelevent."

I can already see you quoting, copying and pasting a piece of the previous paragraph I wrote so you can respond with another obnoxious comment--something like: "I don't have to make you sound irrelevent, you do a good job of that yourself."

Nmaginate, you're just going to have to get used to my wit--as far as "whitey" is concerned, I used that term in my response to your initial post because this ncobra agenda you keep pushing (By the way, I've known about that site since last year) sounds militant and separatist.

quote:
Again, how is it that you want the privilege/freedom to talk about the IDEAL but I cannot? How is it that you claim to have, in essence, adequately "defined the problem" when you have not taken into account how INDEPENDENCE - i.e. control over our collective destiny


I never said you couldn't talk about your plan of ideal reparations--I never even said you were wrong. The problem is, you still haven't expressed how we are gong to make the steps to achieve self-sufficiency--Achieve independence from racist institutions-- damn--nearly every institution is of caucasian design, therefore, in some way, shape or form, white people will be involved in the process of blacks achieving independence and self-sufficiency. Who helped the NAACP see fruition? White liberals and jews. Who supports the NAACP now? Corporations like Texaco and Ford.

quote:
But I guess you suggest that we "Stay In Bed With WHITEY"... or whatever you feel our relationship with "Whitey" is suppose to be in order for "Whitey" to feel like we're not trying "fuck" him.


No race of people has achieved independence and self-sufficiency without the help of another race. Jewish people have a long history with the Japanese. A Jewish banker single-handedly funded the Japanese in eliminating the Russians as a threat to the Jews. The Japanese, in turn, aided in giving Dutch, Polish and German Jews safe passage to freedom and avoid termination by the Nazis.

In response to your embracing the notion of achieving independence from these racist institutions, all I have to say is this: Every black man isn't your friend and every white man isn't your enemy.

I reiterate--you're putting the cart before the horse--all I've seen is "achieve independence and self-sufficiency--achieve independence from racist institutions." How do you propose we get
to the point of self-sufficiency and independence? You've knocked my idea of starting with revitalizing the inner city with a black infrastructure but you haven't inserted your idea of where we're going to start from to make the necessary steps of getting to the point of independence and self-sufficiency. If I, somehow, missed where you inserted your ideas, I'm sure you'll quote, copy and paste for my reading pleasure.
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quote:
Your views are inconsistent with eachother in the fact that you agree with giving us access, but you seem to disagree that it is a "politicaly viable" solution. Your dissent stems from:


HeruStar, you, just like Nmaginate are trying too hard by overanalzying and, thereby, trying to see errors and inconsistencies with my logic instead of just sticking to the conversation at hand. Where in the hell did you get the idea that I don't agree that it is a politically viable solution?

I merely stated that the problems in black communities need to be dealt with first before the problem of education should be considered. I would put "ACCESS" first over dealing with the problems of education, mainly because there are organizations out there, the NEA, for one, that are already attacking the issues of the problems with public education.

As flawed as public education may be, it is still more than effective enough in doing the job it was created to do--empowering young minds. The problem is, young minds have to be there in order to get the education.
quote:
No race of people has achieved independence and self-sufficiency without the help of another race.
It's silliness like this as you continue on your STRAW MAN parade that shows your issues.

This idea of yours doesn't make any logical sense... with the absolute (NO RACE) rhetoric you use.

How exactly did the first "race" ever survive let alone thrive if there were no other "races" to help them? And really where does this shit come from?

Do... you... know... what... a... STRAW MAN is??

quote:
In response to your embracing the notion of achieving independence from these racist institutions, all I have to say is this: Every black man isn't your friend and every white man isn't your enemy.
What the FUCK are you talking about?

There is NOTHING that I have said that approximates, can be construed or can be stretched for you to even begin to think that BULLSHIT makes sense. Nothing I have said suggests that "EVERY Black Man" this and "EVERY White Man" that.

So what the FUCK are you talking about?
Learn how to stop assuming shit you have absolutely no reason to believe except by way of your own concocted STRAW MEN...

quote:
You've knocked my idea of starting with revitalizing the inner city with a black infrastructure but you haven't inserted your idea of where we're going to start from to make the necessary steps of getting to the point of independence and self-sufficiency.
I have not "knocked" your idea. You have this problem with READING COMPREHENSION and the most important thing with that: CONTEXT.

I tell you what. I'll match your quaint axioms with my own which is so necessary here:

A statement is Opposition is not necessarily a statement promoting the Opposite.

That said, all your counterpoints seem to have to place what I've mentioned at some polar extreme (to your idea). What I have said is not. I made an observation. I listed a principle concern. You have failed to speak to how you would address it.

So, basically you've listed The LIMITS Of Your "IDEAL". Something, to me, that's counterintuitive...

As for your idea, you really haven't said much let alone spelled out how we get to that point. You talk about points A-Z but show no logical progression that establishes your ideas as the actual beginning points. You just assert they are as if "revitalizing the inner city" is a self-explanatory step.

My question to you was how do you ensure that revitalization last? In essence, how do you ensure "Whitey" doesn't get more out of it than you or more than what's necessary?

You would do better to actually address things I say instead of continuing on your STRAW MAN tangents.

sad "It seems Militant and Separatist." sad

Again, if it were not for the "militants and separatists" much of what the Reparations Movement is would not exist. The NAACP types would still be waiting to gauge the temperature of their White Supporters if not taking direction from them. If it where not for the "militant and separatist" tradition making Reparations an issue year in, year out... long before you stubbled upon NCOBRA in your usual Johnny Come Lately style, just last year... lol ... we would not be having this conversation.

One of those "good White/Jewish people" I converse with on another forum has noted that no major Black (mainstream) organization has come out, officially, in support of REPARATIONS. To the extent that his notion is true... I WONDER WHY???

sad "It seems Militant and Separatist." sad

And I guess your own note is an apt description of your views here:

"...this [stuff IRONHOUSE is saying] sounds like the house nigger not wanting to see slavery end for fear of having to figure out how to fend for himself...

That about sums it up, huh? bsm

Oh for those who would actually try to address substance. Again, I did not "knock" what you said. You had the nerve to say:
"In order to come up with a [proper] solution, you need to [properly] identify the problem."

I stated why I thought "the problem" was not COMPLETELY and, hence, properly identified. Some READING COMPREHENSION instead of Knee-Jerk or "Knock"-Knee was in order. I said:

quote:
Grants for education, tax breaks, etc. alone without systematic, institutional, structural changes pretty much becomes just another version of what people think Reparations As Cash Checks to individuals would be... Short Lived and of little (collective) enduring transforming effect.
By definition, by any logical reading of the English used in my statement... there is no "knock" of what you proposed. Just a statement, an analysis that says what you propose BY ITSELF, ON ITS OWN is not going to make a lasting effect.

You mentioned the help Whites/Jews provided to the NAACP but really all that help has profitted us how in the here and now? If that help was so great how come we're talking about Reparations today and did not get Reparations THEN?? What part of the critiques of those things have you missed?
    "I'm worried and concerned. I've been working hard all my life to promote the cause of integration. Now that integration is beginning to happen...have I led my people to join a sinking ship?" - MLK
As I said before:
Provisions/considerations in your idea to avoid or eventually counteract that?

Please note:
EVENTUALLY suggests a progression.
quote:
The Japanese, in turn, aided in giving Dutch, Polish and German Jews safe passage to freedom and avoid termination by the Nazis.
Ironhorse.

Thats funny; I always thought Germany and Japan were on the same team during WWII...?

Yo' Ironhorse; do you have a problem w/ Black Nationalism and/or Seperatism?

I happen 2B an advocate of both..
quote:
Ironhorse.

Thats funny; I always thought Germany and Japan were on the same team during WWII...?


You're right, Blaq, Germany and Japan were both breathing down our backs, and because you have the decency to simply ask, instead of acting like a rabid dog, like some of these Other people have done, I'll drop a little knowledge on you.

The time period in which I'm referring to was around Holocaust time, just before WWII. I'll give you a quick story on what I'm talking about--there were a significant number of Jews that had escaped the Nazis, fleeing to neighboring countries that were neutral territory.

Unfortunately, the Nazis pursued the fleeing jews and the neighboring countries were no longer safe. It was due to one Japanese governmental official that single-handedly forged thousands of passports for the escaping jews so that they may enter Japan, and thereby sail to a Dutch settled island.

Why did the Japanese agree to help the jews? Because Rabis convinced Japanese governmental officials that after the Nazis were through exterminating the jews they (the Japanese) would be next to be exterminated due to the fact that the Nazis' plan was to populate the world with a blue-eyed, blonde-haired super race.

The reason why the Japanese and the Jews had a relationship to begin with was because the Japanese needed funding to fight the Russians. No one would fund the Japanese but a jewish banker in New York. The Jewish banker agreed to fund the Japanese because, at the time, the Russians was giving the jews a very hard time.

Now, if you feel the need to fill in the holes with concrete evidence

http://www.historyplace.com/index.html, here's a site that gives you complete info from A to Z:

quote:
Yo' Ironhorse; do you have a problem w/ Black Nationalism and/or Seperatism?


No, I don't have a problem at all with black nationalism and/or seperatism--it's impossible, in this day and age, for any race of people, especially a bunch of back-biting, crab-hearted race of people like us, to make any kind of progress without the aid of people from another race, whether they be white, hispanic, asian or jew.

If we were a people that were truly unified and prepared to transcend, perhaps I would put some shades on and throw my fist up but if Ray Ray, Tyrone, Sharquita and Tisha down the street can't get along--if James and Tawana across town can't get along--if Pookie man shot Terell over 50 cents, how do you expect all of us, as a "nation" to act as one and overcome our oppressors?

By the way, while you're gearing up to overcome our oppressors you better get ready to seek out the decendants of the blacks that owned their own people, and beat them down. Oh yeah, and when you sail on the ship back to the motherland, you better have enough bullets and bombs to take on the decendants of the Africans that sold our ancestors to the Spanish, British, and Dutch to begin with.
Nmaginate, I see what your problem is now--you need a fucking chew toy.

I can see through your smoke and mirrors, Nmaginate, and I'm getting about sick and damn tired of you foaming at the mouth over nothing.

I'm about sick and damn tired of you side-stepping my challenges, only to respond with more garbage--trying to cover up for the fact that, other than hyping up N'COBRA, you haven't come up with one single damn idea of your own for achieving independence and self-sufficiency.

I don't give a fuck about STRAW-MAN, SUPER-MAN, PLASTIC-MAN, BAT-MAN, SPIDER-MAN or any other kind of MAN--my eyes grow tired of reading all of this shit you keep spouting to cover up for the fact that YOU OFFER NO IDEAS OF YOUR OWN.

I'm not even going to bother quoting any of this pure, unadulterated, warmed-over trash you keep spouting all over this forum because it's a waste of time. You're like a fucking weed--everytime I kill one stupid thing you say something else stupid pops up out of your mouth.

You know, what is so fucking ridiculous is the fact that, first of all, all this debating over reparations is irrefutably unecessary since reparations will never happen, and, secondly, you've admitted, yourself, that we both basically agree on the same outcome--your problem is, you're mad because I don't want to achieve independence in the way you want to, whatever the hell that is, since you STILL haven't explained how we're supposed to make it to the point of independence and self-sufficiency.

You've lost yet another debate, Nmaginate--I'm not going to help you fill up another forum with over 6 pages of dumbass insults because you're tired of watching Star Trek re-runs, and run out of harmless chemicals to mix up in your chemisry set.

Why don't you pry your fingers from your keyboard and take a walk outside--get some fresh air, burn some calories, plant some flowers, go to the bookstore, take a road trip but please, PLEASE step the fuck away from your computer because you don't make any fucking sense other than the fact that you're a prime example of why we, as a race, will never achieve true independence and self-sufficiency.
quote:
you've admitted, yourself, that we both basically agree on the same outcome
Where you lying sack of shit? WHERE?

Oh... that's why you're not going to quote anything else. You know you're lying. Fucking TumbleWeed...

All these excuses for why you can't deal...

quote:
Grants for education, tax breaks, etc. alone without systematic, institutional, structural changes pretty much becomes just another version of what people think Reparations As Cash Checks to individuals would be... Short Lived and of little (collective) enduring transforming effect.

By definition, by any logical reading of the English used in my statement... there is no "knock" of what you proposed. Just a statement, an analysis that says what you propose BY ITSELF, ON ITS OWN is not going to make a lasting effect.
Hmmm... that certainly doesn't suggest that we agree on the same OUTCOME.

We have not agreed on how we define the problem so obviously we have not agreed on the OUTCOME-SOLUTION. So, NO MAN (because you don't have any Intellectual Fortitude, your STRAW MEN being but one indication)... you can stop all your crying because you can't formulate a logical counterthesis to things I say.

sad "It seems Militant and Separatist." sad

And I guess your own note is an apt description of your views here:

"...this [stuff IRONHOUSE is saying] sounds like the house nigger not wanting to see slavery end for fear of having to figure out how to fend for himself...

Is it not?
Are you not singing the HOUSE NIGGER BLUES?
Seems like you know you are. I guess there's a whole lot of FEAR going on with you here. lol

But, it seems that you are the Doofus King. Seems like you think I "admitted" that we have the same outcome perhaps from this statement:

A statement [in] Opposition is not necessarily a statement promoting the Opposite.

DUMBASS!!! When something is not the OPPOSITE of something else, the two being the same is but one possibility out of many. STUPID!! Does "a statement in opposition" sound like something that is "the same" to you?

What a fucking dumbass you are... Eek
Okay, Nmurinate, you want to play, you worthless, spineless, dickless, panty liner-wearing, sniveling, two-faced, talking out of both sides of your mouth, pseudo-intellectual, hard-headed, dim-witted, immature, shiftless, complacent, homosexual tendencies having, novelty store, Zulu warrior ass son of a bitch? Let's play.

quote:
"You wanna go, nigguh, les' go!" --Lil' John and the Eastside Boyz.


I tried to be nice and put and end to this worthless conversation but since you want to make this personal, I can do this, much better than your kente cloth diaper wearing ass can.

quote:
Grants for education, tax breaks, etc. alone without systematic, institutional, structural changes pretty much becomes just another version of what people think Reparations As Cash Checks to individuals would be... Short Lived and of little (collective) enduring transforming effect.

By definition, by any logical reading of the English used in my statement... there is no "knock" of what you proposed. Just a statement, an analysis that says what you propose BY ITSELF, ON ITS OWN is not going to make a lasting effect.


Tell me how the FUCK, you ignorant, 2 dollar ho, you are going to implement systematic, institutional, structural changes? I want YOU, not ya cross-eyed mama, not ya drunk ass daddy, not MBM, not Vox, not Faheem, not Kweli4real, not LimDem, not AudioGuy--I want YOU to explain how black people, once they achieve this so called independence and self-sufficiency, are going to maintain this self-sufficiency? You don't know, do you, ya attention starved, sociopathic, bruised ego-having, cyber maggit.

So far, all I've seen you do is toss up other peoples ideas of the end process--the outcome of reparations. You haven't said one damn thing about how we're supposed to start with achieving independence, you haven't offered one single motherfucking clue as to who or what will be involved in the process of independence and self-sufficiency--YOU HAVE NO IDEAS OF YOUR OWN BECAUSE YOU'RE A BOTTOM-FEEDING LOSER THAT CAN ONLY TALK ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE'S IDEAS.

You sound just like the typical, want something for nothing, handout-taking, negro--How the fuck, you blockheaded, moronic, oblivious, imbecile, can you want reparations from racist institutions but, in the same breath, say you want independence and self-sufficiency from these same institutions you're begging from, you punk ass, flea market thug?

You want to be a real nigga? Then get off your ass, rally black people together and do the damn thang yourself! Stop begging for reparations and fund your own motherfucking revolution! Stop whining like a bitch and take it to the streets--you don't need those racist institution's help--raise your own damn money, fix your own damn neighborhoods, set up elementary, middle, secondary, post secondary, graduate and post graduate places of learning in church basements, cellars, storm shelters and ditches on your own.

Be a real nigga, Nmurinate, and tell us black folks how we gonna overcome fucked up priorities--putting rims, clothes, hair styles, cars, drugs and premarital sex over family welfare, safety and welbeing? You sound like a mentally ill fool--yeah, we gonna overcome alright--how the fuck you gonna fund your revolution? With barbeques, car washes, and swap meets? Why don't you march your ass over to Farrahkan and see how much support you're going to get from the Nation of Islam. Ya boy, Louis, can't even go to England without geting his ass banned from the whole country--the fuck outta here, Nmurinate, you foolish, harebrained, cretinous adolescent minded, keyboard hugging nerd.

If I were a "house nigga," I'd be proud to be one--you're that type of dumbass field nigga that thinks he has a plan on how to escape but doesn't know how to read or write and doesn't know his left hand from his right hand. You're that dumbass field nigga that thinks he can escape massa but doesn't have a plan what to do, where to go, what to do when you get there, and couldn't read the warning signs along the way to steer clear of trouble.

Don't worry, I wouldn't be the type of house nigga to tell on you. I would know you wouldn't make it far because you don't know which direction north is--you wouldn't know which direction east, west or south would be either, for that matter--that's just how clueless your ignorant ass is, Nmurinate.

You'd be one of those dumbass field niggas that would run around in circles and end up right back at the plantation, where massa is waiting with a bull whip and a rope, meanwhile, I'd be the house negro that would chill under the massa, learn massa's ways, teach myself how to read and write, establishing connections up north, and learning the best route to where I want to go while living comfortably, educating myself, plan an escape, and when the time is right,

I'd waltz my ass up north, get myself established and apply myeslf to the cause, with the rest of the escaped blacks and participating quakers, of getting the rest of my people off of that plantation, meanwhile, your ignorant ass is hanging in a tree or sitting in a cauldron of boiling tar.

quote:
"I'm worried and concerned. I've been working hard all my life to promote the cause of integration. Now that integration is beginning to happen...have I led my people to join a sinking ship?" - MLK


When Martin Luther King made that statement, he was referring to idiots like you, Nmurinate. You're so gassed up on the legacy of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr.--hugging the nuts of men, long since dead, you think you can transcend the United States of America, and with who, you dumb fuck, who? Even Malcolm X came to his senses after his enlightening visit to Mecca but you're still running around thinking black people are going to walk off of their jobs, run the streets, take their savings out of the bank, buy a ship and make their way back to the motherland.

Damn, you're so dense it's painful even to read your retarded rantings and ravings. over 15 years ago, the Black Panthers vowed on the Morton Downey Jr. show that they would be on every overpass, every tall building and hidden in strategic locations and snipe every white person in sight. So far, only two negroes had the balls to carry out that plan and we know what happened to them. That's unity for ya, ain't it? Fucking idiot.

You ain't shit, Nmurinate because you have no ideas, you have no solutions, and you don't even believe in your own people or you wouldn't say that developing a viable black infrastructure in major cities would serve no purpose--you have to start somewhere in the process of seeking independence from systematically racist institutions, you moron. You're a fucking idiot--who the hell do you think the black causus interacts with in order to achieve what they are trying to do? Spike Lee? Kweize Mfume? Jessie Jackson? Al Sharpton? Hell no--they interact with members of congress, members of the senate, yeah, white people. White people that are in positions of power to help the black cause.

quote:
I stated why I thought "the problem" was not COMPLETELY and, hence, properly identified. Some READING COMPREHENSION instead of Knee-Jerk or "Knock"-Knee was in order. I said:


quote:
Grants for education, tax breaks, etc. alone without systematic, institutional, structural changes pretty much becomes just another version of what people think Reparations As Cash Checks to individuals would be... Short Lived and of little (collective) enduring transforming effect.


Nope, once again, you may have stated the problem, you may have even stated the end process but you haven't stated one damn idea as to how we are supposed to achieve independence and self-sufficiency. You haven't even come up with an idea as to how we, as a race, can stop giving our dollars away to these racist institutions, and stop being in debt to these racist institutions--owing almost as much money as we are asking for in the funding of reparations.

Here is what black people need to be focused on, first, even before begging for reparations:

quote:
Regarding his critics, Cosby said, "You can get anybody to stand and say where the wrong is coming from and how the wrong is doing us wrong. Bill Cosby is saying we are a strong people. We need to stop it."
And I'm saying, we need to start it. We need to start being embarrassed about what is happening in our communities. We need to start valuing our families, our children, our neighborhoods and our schools so they don't become prizes that go to the lowest bidder with the best proposal.


Damn, you're so fucking simple-minded, Nmurinate, it's a wonder you don't put your panties on over your baggy jeans when you dress yourself in the morning or does yo mama help you with that? You have officially been Punk'd, Nmurinate, by the one, the only, IRONHORSE--there are many imitators but only one originator.
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I hope you got your money's worth...

quote:
...you worthless, spineless, dickless, panty liner-wearing, sniveling, two-faced, talking out of both sides of your mouth, pseudo-intellectual, hard-headed, dim-witted, immature, shiftless, complacent, homosexual tendencies having, novelty store negro ass son of a bitch.
That's worth how much?

Hmm... and let's see? My very question to you would be, in essence, how would the things you've mentioned be MAINTAINED and protect against WHITE BACKLASH. Your answer was: SILENCE!

Now shut the fuck up!!
Don't cry to me because you can't answer the question posed to you. You kept trying to avoid it with your STRAW MEN, No Man...

Let's take this back a second. You said:
quote:
You know, what is so fucking ridiculous is the fact that, first of all, all this debating over reparations is irrefutably unnecessary since reparations will never happen...
Then what the fuck are you still taking for? lol

What the fuck was your thread for? Some RIDICULOUSLY UNNECESSARY talk about your "Ideal"? Your "Ideal" that, again, was based on some DUMBASS premise that the Reparations Movement-Advocates have proposed Reparations as simple cash payments to individuals.

You should start off your comments on things that are accurate, IRON~. That shit was NOT. And it is some old regurgitated shit that's been said time and time again. But, okay... those are all your original views... lol

Original Views that don't say a damn thing.
Revitalize The Black Community = WHAT? HOW?

Hmm... I didn't see any details from you. Seems as if you really don't have a fuckin' clue. And I guess your own note is an apt description of your views here:

"...this [stuff IRONHOUSE is saying] sounds like the house nigger not wanting to see slavery end for fear of having to figure out how to fend for himself..."

Anyway... given how much you used your STRAW MAN argument ("It sounds militant and separatist", "Every White person isn't your enemy".... STUPID SHIT, ALL) there is no reason for me to be inclined to do anything other than show you, again, the things I said that you just have no answer for:

"To me, it makes no sense to work for Reparations and not contemplate how to reduce Black people's exposure to basically the same RACIST INSTITUTIONS that caused the need for Reparations and have delayed the acquisition of Reparations for so long. You know, carry on more or less like Business As Usual as if there isn't going to be a RACIST RE-ACTION or attempt to backdoor obstructions and obstacles to Black people trying to make the best use out of Reparations."

sad And all your little comments show how it's so hard for you to contemplate and even think about how to deal with the impending RACIST RE-ACTION. You know you did say, "for every action..." Hmm... Now you punk ass wants to cry because you don't have an answer. sad

I guess if we ask nicely "Whitey" won't attempt to, as they say, "Roll Back The Gains"...

Apparently, you seem to think when and if "Whitey" grants then "Whitey" we act honorably throughout the whole process. Seems to me you have a delusional view of "Whitey". Apparently you think "Whitey" will be your friend if you act "right". You know, don't make it seem like you're saying "fuck you".

Note again, "Whitey" already thinks, promotes and propagandize Reparations as being a scam and a big attempt to "fuck" him.


Hmmm....

I said nothing about "Whitey" not being involved. I've merely stipulated to us having the foresight/vision to stipulate how "Whitey" should be involved instead of "Whitey" directing how Reparations will be spent, what will be availed to us, etc.

...it seems you would rather circumscribe the way we employ/implement Reparations around things that won't make "Whitey" mad...


And I guess your own note is an apt description of your views here:

"...this [stuff IRONHOUSE is saying] sounds like the house nigger not wanting to see slavery end for fear of having to figure out how to fend for himself..."


Yes, I can play... But can you?
Will you CRY the whole way through?
Will you avoid the big ass holes in your logic?
Will you pretend you've detailed some by just saying:

quote:
The point is to rebuild or, in many cases, build an infrastructure in the black community--education, black entreprenuership, a viable black political base, and revitalize the black community.
Little if any of that says anything about HOW any of that will be done let alone MAINTAINED. So, STFU until you can deal...
Nmaginate: "Yap, yap, yap, my ego is bruised and I can't stop falling...Yap, yap, yap."

"I'm resorting to throwing insults to make up for the fact that I don't have any ideas. I'm too busy sucking the dicks of dead black leaders...yap, yap, yap, yap....."



"I'm mad as hell because a newbie is smarter than me and doesn't want to be on my side..yap, yap, yap, yap...."

It looks to me like you're the one doing all the crying, Nmurinate:

quote:
Ooohhh!! You called me "inconsiderate"...
I'm so sadden.

Ooohhh!! You called me "arrogant"...
I'm so madden.

Ooohhh!! You called me "tactless"...
I'm just so hurt.

NOW WHAT??


You're a big fucking baby.
quote:
You know, what is so fucking ridiculous is the fact that, first of all, all this debating over reparations is irrefutably unecessary since reparations will never happen



Iron,

Your the slave that conditioned yourself to be comfortable with the chains. You were convinced that emancipation would never happen. Unfortunately for you it did, and now your left with a psycotic mentality. You're left with the mentality that emancipation or reparations will only make the Black condition worse.

We can't read, we can't write, we can't unite, so what will we do with our freedom? This is the question that your fathers asked Harriet Tubman when she pleaded with the to flea their condition. This is the reason Nat Turner didn't invite your fathers to his meetings.


Even still today the pathetic psycophath descendants are still saying things like

If we were a people that were truly unified and prepared to transcend, perhaps I would put some shades on and throw my fist up but if Ray Ray, Tyrone, Sharquita and Tisha down the street can't get along--if James and Tawana across town can't get along--if Pookie man shot Terell over 50 cents, how do you expect all of us, as a "nation" to act as one and overcome our oppressors?

I've come to grips with the fact that emancipation wasn't for everybody, so neither will reparations be. If reparations is not for you, then please stay out of the meetings unless your going to contribute things other than

By the way, while you're gearing up to overcome our oppressors you better get ready to seek out the decendants of the blacks that owned their own people, and beat them down. Oh yeah, and when you sail on the ship back to the motherland, you better have enough bullets and bombs to take on the decendants of the Africans that sold our ancestors to the Spanish, British, and Dutch to begin with


Stay a slave. Keep giving head to the opposition in order to stay in his good graces. But expect the revolution. Expect true African Americans to rebel. Expect the origins of humanity to be dissatisfied with their condition. Expect us to seek what is rightfully ours. They stole the culture, the civilization, and the PEOPLE. EMANCIPATION DID HAPPEN. REPERATIONS WILL HAPPEN.
"I'm worried and concerned. I've been working hard all my life to promote the cause of integration. Now that integration is beginning to happen...have I led my people to join a sinking ship?" - MLK
quote:
When Martin Luther King made that statement, he was referring to idiots like you, Nmurinate.
OKay. HOW??

quote:
...you're still running around thinking black people are going to walk off of their jobs, run the streets, take their savings out of the bank, buy a ship and make their way back to the motherland.
You FUCKIN' DUMBASS!!

Do you know what a STRAW MAN is?
I've said nor have I suggested anything of the such:

I said nothing about "Whitey" not being involved. I've merely stipulated to us having the foresight/vision to stipulate how "Whitey" should be involved instead of "Whitey" directing how Reparations will be spent, what will be availed to us, etc.

DUMBASS IronHorse... There is no way you can MAINTAIN your bullshit ass STRAW MAN argument because the things I've actually said are not consistent with the views you attribute to me. That last quote of yours was the most IDIOTIC bullshit every written on AA.org.

Upon what did you make that assumption?
Upon what do you make that accusation?

Read the bold statement about "Whitey" again.
There is no "take money out bank and get on ship" clause in anything I have said. DUMBASS!!

quote:
...over 15 years ago, the Black Panthers vowed on the Morton Downey Jr. show that they would be on every overpass, every tall building and hidden in strategic locations and snipe every white person in sight. So far, only two negroes had the balls to carry out that plan and we know what happened to them. That's unity for ya, ain't it? Fucking idiot.
What the FUCK are you talking about DUMBASS?

quote:
...you don't even believe in your own people
And I guess your own note is an apt description of your views here:

"...this [stuff IRONHOUSE is saying] sounds like the house nigger not wanting to see slavery end for fear of having to figure out how to fend for himself..."

I guess you really believe in your people, HOUSE NIGGER IRONHORSE. tongue

quote:
...or you wouldn't say that developing a viable black infrastructure in major cities would serve no purpose
Since you use WHITE BOY (il)LOGIC, I will treat you like a 'White Boy'.

QUOTE ME OR STROKE ME!!
Where did I say "developing a viable black infrastructure...would serve no purpose."

I said, my opinion is/was, my analysis suggests that what you've proposed, as-is, will have little or no LASTING/ENDURING EFFECTS and, obviously, has not contemplated WHITE BACKLASH and/or Backdoor obstructions or roll backs.

DUMBASS!!! That's says what you proposed is a "start" but not much else after that or rather will only do so much. There was NO statement from me that said there would be "NO EFFECT" little LYING BITCH!!

And, truth be told, VIABLE BLACK INFRASTRUCTURE is some non-descript shit of yours, I'm sure we all know by OSMOSIS what you think is required and what exactly will make it "viable".

quote:
who the hell do you think the black causus interacts with in order to achieve what they are trying to do? Spike Lee? Kweize Mfume? Jessie Jackson? Al Sharpton? Hell no--they interact with members of congress, members of the senate, yeah, white people.
What the HELL point do you think you're making with all this SHADOW BOXING, IronHorse aka Straw Man/Horse?

quote:
White people that are in positions of power to help the black cause.
Yeah, and they have lend such great help throughout American History and the Black Caucus is really getting things done in the Black Community (REPARATIONS included) with the great help of those "Good White People".

DUMBASS IronHorse! You make the stupidest statements.

You should first start (somewhere!) by not assuming that you even have a concept about what I think. This dumb shit about "militancy, separatism, and getting on ships" only reflect on your "House Niggerisms" or something to where you just can't deal with what's presented. So, instead you have to concoct some bullshit your dumbass jumps to (unfounded) conclusions about... all for your STRAW MAN purposes, No Man! (i.e. one who lacks testicles)

You still have to explain how it was that your Punk ASS was trying to posture like my initial post said the same (exact) thing you did.
quote:
The more you post responses, Nmaginate, the less sense you make becasue you quote more and more of what I said instead of answering my challenges and coming up with any ideas of your own.
Dude, you're not even ready.

You can't even deal with the limits of your own views and things inherently problematic within it. And really what you've said amounts to shit because you don't even believe "in your people" or their "cause". Proof comes in your statement: REPARATIONS WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

You're not ready. You know you're not ready when you have to resort to incessant Straw Man argumentation to try to defend your beliefs. Beliefs you know are weak; hence your HOUSE NIGGER = FEAR statement.

You know you're not ready when you try to indict me for not doing something you yourself have not done: Provide specifics - the How To's.

Again:
I said nothing about "Whitey" not being involved. I've merely stipulated to us having the foresight/vision to stipulate how "Whitey" should be involved instead of "Whitey" directing how Reparations will be spent, what will be availed to us, etc.

Until you're ready to deal with that, I suggest you shut your cyber-hole.

I'll pull one of your numbers since you're in need of some remedial education. Tell me, research the form of democracy South Africa has and constrast it to American "democracy".

Let me know when your DUMBASS is ready to report your findings to the class.
quote:
YOU MAKE NO SENSE, NMAGINATE. YOU'RE RUNNING AROUND IN CIRCLES, CHASING YOUR OWN TAIL, NMAGINATE. YOU HAVE NO IDEAS, NMAGINATE. YOU HAVE NO LIFE, NMAGINATE.
Yeah and because I have "no ideas" that's why your PUNK ASS is crying here.

scream REPARATIONS WILL NEVER HAPPEN! scream

I guess I should start calling you MAXWELL (Not-So)SMART. All your messages (when contradicted or challenged) have this uncanny self-perpetrated tendency to SELF-DESTRUCT.

You make a thread about Reparations then when challenged say, "well, ain't no use in talking about it. It's not going to happen." But you DUMBASS started the thread. Go figure!!

sad Fuckin' little BITCH kid. Now you want to Take Your Ball And Go Home because Nmag doesn't "play" like you want him. sad
HeruStar, your response didn't make any sense. Were you somehow trying to creatively lead into what I said with that metaphorical garbage you just wrote?

It's obvious we don't agree on this issue and it doesn't make any sense to keep bouncing back with ignorant remarks because we don't agree.

The national deficit is currently over 7.7 trillion dollars and climbing. it's been calculated that every single American owes the country somewhere around $26,000 give or take a few hundred dollars. If reparations is going to get funded by anyone, it's going to be funded by the middleast, since around 40% of that debt is owed to them.

The only "slaves" in this forum is you, HeruStar, and your sexually frustrated friend, Nmaginate. All of this talk of independence and self-sufficiency but no mention of how to revitalize and empower the black community. You have to crawl before you can walk.

I don't know about you two but I'm more concerned about educating our people, making them economically viable, valuing ourselves and each other, then worry about how we are going to become independent of systematically racist institutions and self-sufficient of a white dominated society later.

If that isn't important to you then what the hell should be? Be realistic about black America instead of painting this picture of some Zulu nation of warriors--waiting for the right moment to pounce on our oppressors and overcome them.

Both of you, especially you, HeruStar, sound like you're reading comic books--worry about things you can control, like giving back to the community instead of overcoming "whitey." If we worry about improving ourselves, instead of expecting someone to pay us back, everything will fall into place in due time.

Like my great grandmama always said, "Before the end of time the bottom rail will come to the top."
quote:
Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
HeruStar, your response didn't make any sense. Were you somehow trying to creatively lead into what I said with that metaphorical garbage you just wrote?

It's obvious we don't agree on this issue and it doesn't make any sense to keep bouncing back with ignorant remarks because we don't agree.

The national deficit is currently over 7.7 trillion dollars and climbing. it's been calculated that every single American owes the country somewhere around $26,000 give or take a few hundred dollars. If reparations is going to get funded by anyone, it's going to be funded by the middleast, since around 40% of that debt is owed to them.

The only "slaves" in this forum is you, HeruStar, and your sexually frustrated friend, Nmaginate. All of this talk of independence and self-sufficiency but no mention of how to revitalize and empower the black community. You have to crawl before you can walk.

I don't know about you two but I'm more concerned about educating our people, making them economically viable, valuing ourselves and each other, then worry about how we are going to become independent of systematically racist institutions and self-sufficient of a white dominated society later.

If that isn't important to you then what the hell should be? Be realistic about black America instead of painting this picture of some Zulu nation of warriors--waiting for the right moment to pounce on our oppressors and overcome them.

Both of you, especially you, HeruStar, sound like you're reading comic books--worry about things you can control, like giving back to the community instead of overcoming "whitey." If we worry about improving ourselves, instead of expecting someone to pay us back, everything will fall into place in due time.

Like my great grandmama always said, "Before the end of time the bottom rail will come to the top."


Hello IRONHORSE,

.....and the information you have expressed is indeed valid. More so than not, Black people need to clean up their own house before condemning others.

...and speaking of reparations, in addition to the realities that you have expressed that are indeed valid, Black people have used their position of influence to break-up the Black family structure for profit. This practice of separating parents from their children, and siblings from other siblings, was supposed to have ended with the abolishment of slavery.

....but Oh Well, the greed, sleaze, and incompetence of some of the Black middle class, and/or elite, to make money by any means necessary,

....any means necessary as applied to making a dishonest livelihood even at the expense of being ethical, means that Black people shall also be held accountable for their own contribution to the vestibule of slavery, and/or enslavement of Black people, duing contemporary times.

Be it the individual, a group of individuals, an organization, a consortium of organizations, whether Caucasian owned or controlled, or otherwise, no rational minded person, group of individuals, or for that matter any corporate entity are going to accept complete financial responsibility for the ills and compensation due to the victims of enslavement when they have not been the only perpetrators.


Sincerely,

Michael Lofton
quote:
I don't know about you two but I'm more concerned about educating our people, making them economically viable, valuing ourselves and each other, then worry about how we are going to become independent of systematically racist institutions and self-sufficient of a white dominated society later.



I struck through the B.S.

Indeed you responded like a true slave.


giveup


You can stay a HOUSENIGGA Razz
..and, HeruStar, you will always remain on my list of sorry ass negroes with a bruised ego, right along with LimDem, Vox, Nmaginate, kevin41, and AudioGuy. td6

...but so far, only you, HeruStar, and Nmaginate are the only ones that made the list for clueless field niggers.

I just about busted my left nut laughing at this gay ass shit you said, HeruStar:

quote:
Oh yeah, and don't wear straw hats like me, unless you're a serious risk taker.


What do you mean by "risk taker," HeruStar? That's terminology I've only heard faggits use on one of those flaming gay shows like "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy."

"I'm a risthe' taker--look at my straw hat." laugh lol ek

It's so blatantly obvious that you're still wet behind the ears--a wannabe cassanova but you fall miserably short. You thought you knew women huh, with that five senses trash you were talking about?

Well, what was this backtracking bullshit all about, HeruStar--explaining to Rowe why you are clueless--that you actually don't have your finger on the pulse of what women want?

quote:
Rowe
I thought he was stating the obvious when he made those comments. But apparently not according to your experiences.


Duh, numbnuts. "DUhhh, but Rowe, but Rowe, I thought....." lol

Here's what's cracking me up about a dime store Don Juan like you, HeruStar:

quote:
I walk the way I do, FOR A WOMAN. I cut my hair, FOR A WOMAN. I shave, FOR A WOMAN. Whatevery THEY like, you best believe Ima do. A man that says otherwise is the one hiding in the closet. THEY turn heads all the time. I DO TO. Mix my Alpha Mentality with some nice fittin's, and skurp (they hittin' the breaks). I don't know when the last time I had to build the nerve to approach a woman. Shux, lately I've been trippin' off of womens pick up lines... ({stops dead in her trax} oh my god...{talking to her friend} he is so beautiful) (my numbers in your pocket)and the latest (So... when are you going to call me?)


"Whatevery THEY like, you best believe Ima do." BAAAAAAAA HA HA HA--Okay, Mike Tyson cabbage

With all that FOR A WOMAN, shit you were talking, I was expecting to read, "I switch my hips FOR A WOMAN, I shave my legs FOR A WOMAN, I wear panties FOR A WOMAN." BAAAAAA HA HA HA HAH A HA HA HA HA HA!!!

*Holding back tears of laughter* Okay, okay--waitaminute, waitaminute--I ain't NEVER heard a nigga talk THIS MUCH bullshit and have the gall to come at me with this high school shit:

quote:
Mix my Alpha Mentality with some nice fittin's, and skurp (they hittin' the breaks). I don't know when the last time I had to build the nerve to approach a woman. Shux, lately I've been trippin' off of womens pick up lines... ({stops dead in her trax} oh my god...{talking to her friend} he is so beautiful)


You sound like the most arrogant, delusional, country ass, Waffle House loving (What the fuck is "Fittin's" and "Shux" and "Skurp?"), low class, self-absorbed, ostentatious, Pompous, bombastic, fallacy of a negro I've ever come across, and MBM had the gall to call me arrogant?
thanks lol Eek td6 wel

First you put up a pic of yourself, looking like a gay sailor--wearing white jeans and a white tanktop with a stupid smirk on your face, and an S-CURL, hightop fade--now you're talking about wearing straw hats? Let's see--I'm picturing you in that homo looking white tank top with those loose white jeans and a straw hat--how gay is that shit? Toot, Toot!! Get ready for the Sparticus gay cruise!! Toot, Toot!! thanks laugh thanks
Obviously, the only one CLUELESS here is you IRONHORSE...

"Your ideals are a little bit too militant and separatist sounding for my taste..." says the CLUELESS self-conscious HOUSE-NEGRO.

"Every black man isn't your friend and every white man isn't your enemy."
says one CLUELESS, Straw Man erecting motherfucka!

Ah... but the true tell of a CLUELESS bitch is the contradictory things she will say out of her many insecure ways to feel good about herself.

We went from you saying:
How is what you quoted any different from what I said at the begining of this discussion...?

To you spazzing:
REPARATIONS WILL NEVER HAPPEN!

...the Black Panthers vowed... [to] snipe every white person in sight... only two negroes had the balls to carry out that plan... That's unity for ya, ain't it?

...it's impossible, in this day and age, for any race of people, especially a bunch of back-biting, crab-hearted race of people like us , to make any kind of progress without the aid of people from another race


So it's obvious you got some fucking issues.
You know, especially after saying something like that, you can't hide behind your PROJECTION:
    "You don't even believe in your own people."
DUMBASS!!! A "separatist", as you have more or less labeled me (out of all people), can hardly be confused or construed as someone who doesn't believe in his people. A "separatist", by definition, would be the epitome of a BELIEVER. Why would a "separatist" propose to "separate" if he did not believe in his people's ability to make it?

And I guess your own note is an apt description of your views here:
    "...this [stuff IRONHOUSE is saying] sounds like the house nigger not wanting to see slavery end for fear of having to figure out how to fend for himself...
TRUER words from you have never been spoken. Obviously, that psychosis of yours is what has you formulating these curious axioms:

  • ...it's impossible, in this day and age, for any race of people... to make any kind of progress without the aid of people from another race.

  • Education, in itself, is liberating--where you obtain your education is irrelevent , it's what you do with that education that counts.

    IRONHORSE, you are one CLUELESS, dumbass self-loathing, self-conscious HOUSE NEGRO. None of that shit you said makes any logical, in touch with any kind of history or reality type of sense.


    I love it when you BITCHES Cry... It's all so funny! cabbage
  • quote:
    What do you mean by "risk taker," HeruStar? That's terminology I've only heard faggits use on one of those flaming gay shows like "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy."

    "I'm a risthe' taker--look at my straw hat."

    It's so blatantly obvious that you're still wet behind the ears--a wannabe cassanova but you fall miserably short. You thought you knew women huh, with that five senses trash you were talking about?

    Well, what was this backtracking bullshit all about, HeruStar--explaining to Rowe why you are clueless--that you actually don't have your finger on the pulse of what women want?


    quote:
    Rowe
    I thought he was stating the obvious when he made those comments. But apparently not according to your experiences.


    Duh, numbnuts. "DUhhh, but Rowe, but Rowe, I thought....."

    Here's what's cracking me up about a dime store Don Juan like you, HeruStar:


    quote:
    I walk the way I do, FOR A WOMAN. I cut my hair, FOR A WOMAN. I shave, FOR A WOMAN. Whatevery THEY like, you best believe Ima do. A man that says otherwise is the one hiding in the closet. THEY turn heads all the time. I DO TO. Mix my Alpha Mentality with some nice fittin's, and skurp (they hittin' the breaks). I don't know when the last time I had to build the nerve to approach a woman. Shux, lately I've been trippin' off of womens pick up lines... ({stops dead in her trax} oh my god...{talking to her friend} he is so beautiful) (my numbers in your pocket)and the latest (So... when are you going to call me?)



    "Whatevery THEY like, you best believe Ima do." BAAAAAAAA HA HA HA--Okay, Mike Tyson

    With all that FOR A WOMAN, shit you were talking, I was expecting to read, "I switch my hips FOR A WOMAN, I shave my legs FOR A WOMAN, I wear panties FOR A WOMAN." BAAAAAA HA HA HA HAH A HA HA HA HA HA!!!

    *Holding back tears of laughter* Okay, okay--waitaminute, waitaminute--I ain't NEVER heard a nigga talk THIS MUCH bullshit and have the gall to come at me with this high school shit:


    quote:
    Mix my Alpha Mentality with some nice fittin's, and skurp (they hittin' the breaks). I don't know when the last time I had to build the nerve to approach a woman. Shux, lately I've been trippin' off of womens pick up lines... ({stops dead in her trax} oh my god...{talking to her friend} he is so beautiful)


    You sound like the most arrogant, delusional, country ass, Waffle House loving (What the fuck is "Fittin's" and "Shux" and "Skurp?"), low class, self-absorbed, ostentatious, Pompous, bombastic, fallacy of a negro I've ever come across, and MBM had the gall to call me arrogant?


    First you put up a pic of yourself, looking like a gay sailor--wearing white jeans and a white tanktop with a stupid smirk on your face, and an S-CURL, hightop fade--now you're talking about wearing straw hats? Let's see--I'm picturing you in that homo looking white tank top with those loose white jeans and a straw hat--how gay is that shit? Toot, Toot!! Get ready for the Sparticus gay cruise!! Toot, Toot!!



    Reparations td6
    You lose Razz
    I tried to ignore it but here's a list of logical fallacies you've committed since you've been on this site:

    argumentum ad ignorantiam
    Arguments of this form assume that since something has not been proven false, it is therefore true. Conversely, such an argument may assume that since something has not been proven true, it is therefore false.

    argumentum ad baculum
    The reader is told that unpleasant consequences will follow
    if they do not agree with the author

    argumentum ad consequentiam
    The author points to the disagreeable consequences of
    holding a particular belief in order to show that this belief is
    false.

    Prejudicial Language
    Loaded or emotive terms are used to attach value or moral
    goodness to believing the proposition.

    Changing the subject

    argumentum ad hominem
    The person presenting an argument is attacked instead of the
    argument itself. This takes many forms. For example, the
    person's character, nationality or religion may be attacked.
    Alternatively, it may be pointed out that a person stands to
    gain from a favourable outcome. Or, finally, a person may be
    attacked by association, or by the company he keeps.

    this list goes on and on
    Appeal to Authority
    Anonymous Authority
    Style over Substance
    Hasty Generalization
    Unrepresentative Sample
    Slothful induction
    Straw Man
    Post Hoc
    Wrong Direction
    Complex Cause
    Irrelevant Conclusion


    For a guy boasting about receiving a Master's Degree you sure don't make alot of sense. Your logic is horrible. If you had an ounce of integrity then you'd probably be taken serious, but every single word that you type has one purpose and one purpose only, that is the contradict the last word you typed.

    Dude you're pathetic.
    So keep committing your fallacies and showing your intelligence. It's fun to watch. What are you going to do now, bring a post from the Sista's Spot into Reparations, somehow miraculously tying the two together to make sense within your pyschotic mind?
    Here's what's cracking me the fuck up about both you, HeruStar, and this idiot, Nmaginate:

    I'm the so-called ignorant one but you two are the ones wearing yourselves out trying to follow me--caught up in my turbulence because both of you are suffering from bruised egos. Thank you for entertaining me--tap dancing away on a wooden floor covered in salt--thanks, FIELD NIGGERS! thanks laugh thanks
    Oh, come on, Nmaginate, don't stop responding with long-winded responses now--oh wait, I forgot--90% of what you wrote was only quotations of what I had already said--the rest, on your behalf, was just slanderous comments and insults out of frustration of not having any ideas of your own.

    Underneath all the colorful text, the stupid ass graemlin faces, and all the overblown, boldface text, there is nothing there to read but a bunch of irrelevent, moot, trivial bullshit.

    quote:
    "This is what N'COBRA said......"


    Fuck what N'COBRA said--you ain't got no constructive ideas of your own, which, by your own definition, means you can't hang in a real debate.Both of you are some clowns indeed.The real lesson is about to come....
    And I'll keep quoting because you aren't worth the time not to mention you haven't said anything worthy of any further discussion from me.

    quote:
    DUMBASS!!! A "separatist", as you have more or less labeled me (out of all people), can hardly be confused or construed as someone who doesn't believe in his people. A "separatist", by definition, would be the epitome of a BELIEVER. Why would a "separatist" propose to "separate" if he did not believe in his people's ability to make it?
    Now that you've finally shut the fuck up, Nmaginate, because you know you have no ideas, I'll proceed with continuing to shut your ignorant ass down. You are, indeed, a separatist, Nmaginate--if you believe in your people you wouldn't have said developing a viable black sociopolitical infrastructure in major cities wouldn't serve a purpose, let alone ensure the success of independence and self-sufficiency.

    When I referred to blacks needing to educate themselves, you responded by saying, "whose education?" Who the fuck education did you think it was going to be? The same education that has empowered blacks since the first days black people had to hide in ditches, church basements, and storm cellars--the same education that empowered every prominent black in the history of the United States.

    I already know what you're thinking in that feable mind of yours, "The textbooks in schools give misleading information on black involvement in the history of the United States and...." Yeah, yadda, yadda, yadda. I've heard that power to the people bullshit over and over again.

    Firstly, a public education is just the tip of the iceburg. Secondly, if more socially conscious black teachers (or more black teachers period) worked in public schools, they could take it upon themselves to either replace, and or supplement current textbooks with more multi-culturally sound textbooks, which leads back to my original discussion.

    If more black administrators were in public schools (black administrators that supported the needs of the school over appeasing students and parents), Those black teachers would be able to secure the necessary materials needed to educate black students as well as enlighten students of other races to black contributions to society--not just during black history month but every day of the school year. That, indeed would help in the cause of further dispeling the ignorance of racism.

    You love to hug Martin Luther King Jr's nuts so let me quote a little something, Dr. King said:

    quote:
    And when this happens, when we allow freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual: Free at last, free at last, thank God almighty we are free at last!


    That doesn't sound like anyone that wants to achieve independence from racist institutions. This is what achieving independence and self-sufficiency from racist institutions sounds like to me: running away from racism. Our goal should be eliminating racism, not running away from it. People like Martin Luther King Jr., Thurgood Marshall, as well as, Autherine Lucy, among many, many others, didn't risk or lose their lives confronting institutionalized racism so that idiots like you would think that running away would serve a purpose.

    A few years ago, Tavis Smiley reported on the Tom Joyner Morning Show that he intercepted a memo from KATZ radio that was, indeed, racially biased. The memo stated to the effect that it would be unecessary to provide black ads to black listeners even though the a significant number of their audience were black.

    To make a long story short, after Tavis used the resources of Tom Joyner's show to apply pressure the the executives at KATZ, the decision was reached not only to air more afrocentric ads but also to hire more blacks in positions of authority in KATZ. Of course, a short-sighted loser like you, Nmaginate, wouldn't see the value in the accomplishment Tavis and Tom made because you want to run away from racist institutions.

    You represent the complacent, self-righteous thought of blacks that don't understand the holistic purpose of what Dr. King and Thurgood Marshall saught to accomplish--having pride off of the backs of our predecessors to the point of thinking that black people have the same integrity and unity as they did back in civil rights days to push onward and upward toward the light--that simply isn't true.

    We may be God's first children--we may have transcended and overcome a lot of trials and tribulations but we, most certainly, are losing if not lost our way, which is why Dr. King made this profound statement:

    quote:
    "I'm worried and concerned. I've been working hard all my life to promote the cause of integration. Now that integration is beginning to happen...have I led my people to join a sinking ship?" - MLK
    quote:
    I'll drop a little knowledge on you. ironhorse

    You are a regular Eddie Murphy.

    quote:
    "Holocaust time". ironhorse

    Could you maybe give me an approximate time period of maybe 3-4 years? You did mention "just before" WW2. Hitler was killing Jews all through the war. Up until the very end of it as a matter of fact.

    quote:
    It was due to one Japanese governmental official (that would make it easy to name this single individual) that single-handedly forged thousands of passports for the escaping Jews so that they may enter Japan, and thereby sail to a Dutch settled island(what island are you talking about, owned by the Dutch that is off the coast of Japan?).
    ironhorse


    quote:
    Why did the Japanese agree to help the Jews? Because Rabbis convinced Japanese governmental officials that after the Nazis were through exterminating the Jews they (the Japanese) would be next to be exterminated due to the fact that the Nazis' plan was to populate the world with a blue-eyed, blonde-haired super race.


    That's a stretch ironhores (have you seen the Incredilbes? I am going to start calling you Elasti-Girl). I believe this is a figment of your imagination, why would; or how could a high ranking Japanese government official be able to pull this off? At the time Japan was a monarchy, the person trying to get away with this would be committing treason, in effect helping the enemies of a country that his home country was at war with.

    quote:
    "The reason why the Japanese and the Jews had a relationship to begin with was because the Japanese needed funding to fight the Russians. No one would fund the Japanese but a Jewish banker in New York (Who is this mystery New York Jewish banker? And now you claim an American citizen was helping the Japanese). The Jewish banker agreed to fund the Japanese because, at the time, the Russians was (were) giving the Jews a very hard time.


    This is gettin frustrating at this point. On the surface your attempt to rationalize your argument sounds sophomoric and immature... "The Russians were giving the Jews "a hard time"...? Are you serious? I hardly doubt you will be able to prove your arguments; because I know / and you know that little spiel was complete bull.
    quote:
    Originally posted by blaqfist:
    And ironhorse, this is a place 4 honest and sensible discourse.
    Why all the name calling?

    You are the one who looks half gay on your avater.

    I don't want to look at a half naked bald niggah trying to show off his abs.

    You aint buff, what are you about 5'5?

    Just stop it midget.



    **DAMN....the schit he says is indicative of one with a napoleonic complex......good observation blaqfist...and as so far as the picture....i'll leave that one alone... Frown
    quote:
    I already know what you're thinking in that feable mind of yours
    Obviously you don't and never will... DUMBASS!!

    You quoted "I Have A Dream"... What a fuckin' idiot!

    quote:
    This is what achieving independence and self-sufficiency from racist institutions sounds like to me: running away from racism. Our goal should be eliminating racism, not running away from it.
    Well, when you Listen To Those VOICES You've Created In Your Own Head you're subject to hear and things are subject to sound any old way to you. Fuckin' COWARD!!

    There is absolutely NO RUN principle in what I said and definitely not what I think. I just happened to correct your flawed and fraudulent thinking about what a "separatist" believes in terms of how much faith, belief and trust a "separatist" has in his people.

    You have labeled me a "separatist" but there is nothing I have actually said nor anything I believe that is about "separatism" -- definitely the way your STRAW MAN Ass wants to describe me. Note: STRAW MAN in this case = you made up some dumb shit because you can't handle the real and true things I have said.

    Face it, you jumped your happy ass to some conclusions that you can't substantiate and you're attempting to attack my position for which you have no defense... except to LIE and say my position is something you want it to be.

    BTW, this axiom of yours does not work:
    Education, in itself, is liberating--where you obtain your education is irrelevent , it's what you do with that education that counts.

    quote:
    ...the same education that empowered every prominent black in the history of the United States.
    Now think about that for a second... Martin Luther King Jr., Thurgood Marshall, etc. were educated in what? SEGREGATED schools? or schools like contemporary, so-called Integrated schools?

    Which SAME EDUCATION are you talking about?

    quote:
    We may be God's first children--we may have transcended and overcome a lot of trials and tribulations but we, most certainly, are losing if not lost our way, which is why Dr. King made [the] profound statement [Nmag introduced in this thread]...

    Try to twist all you must but there is no way you can make the meaning of that statement (Dream Speech HORSY) into something that indicts us as a people. Yours is not an HONEST nore even logical reading (interpretation) of what MLK said, literally or otherwise:
      "I'm worried and concerned. I've been working hard all my life to promote the cause of integration. Now that integration is beginning to happen...have I led my people to join a sinking ship?" - MLK
    The KEY Fuckin' PHRASE = "have I led my people", not have my people fallen short or stepped in their own quicksand of complacency, self-righteousness, vice or whatever the FUCK you want to concoct. The meaning of the statement is clear. The concern, worry, apprehension therein... UNDENIABLE. Deal with it Mr. DISSONANCE!

    Don't try to think your Johnny Comely Lately Ass is going to reinterpret his CLEAR and DIRECT statement into meaning something that coincides with your fucked up, unjustifiable ideology.

    And you had the nerve to talk about "debating honestly" when you Popcorn Ass has done nothing here but try your best to Make Shit Up hoping that you could forego your own misery.

    You have no honor.

    Fabricating shit about me is one thing but bastardizing clear ass quotes from MLK as if they say shit that aligns with your Cracker Jack beliefs because of the DISSONANCE your self-consciously HOUSY ass is experiencing is beyond the pale.

    quote:
    You represent the complacent, self-righteous thought of blacks that don't understand the holistic purpose of what Dr. King and Thurgood Marshall saught to accomplish--having pride off of the backs of our predecessors to the point of thinking that black people have the same integrity and unity as they did back in civil rights days to push onward and upward toward the light--that simply isn't true.
    WTF is that?? Do you like record this stuff and play it back just so you can believe you've actually heard stuff to justify your BS?

    IRONHORSE, you and your demonstrated IGNORANCE and belligerent stupidity here puts you in no position by any stretch of even your imagination to talk about what anybody "understands"...
    quote:
    That's a stretch ironhores (have you seen the Incredilbes? I am going to start calling you Elasti-Girl). I believe this is a figment of your imagination, why would; or how could a high ranking Japanese government official be able to pull this off? At the time Japan was a monarchy, the person trying to get away with this would be committing treason, in effect helping the enemies of a country that his home country was at war with.


    Before I begin, blaqfist, I will make you aware that I never, at any point in time, insult you in any way, shape or form as you so wonderfully did:

    quote:
    Originally posted by blaqfist:
    And ironhorse, this is a place 4 honest and sensible discourse.
    Why all the name calling?

    You are the one who looks half gay on your avater.

    I don't want to look at a half naked bald niggah trying to show off his abs.

    You aint buff, what are you about 5'5?

    Just stop it midget.



    This is why I don't support my discussions with evidence of my source up front: Firstly, it helps me to weed out the ignorant people from the intellectuals. Secondly, I enjoy reading all the ignorant ass responses after I do present the link supporting the statements I make.

    This is why I've always said, since I first came to this site, that people should simply ask for clarification before insulting people. You make yourself look stupid, and, if your ego is easily bruisable, you end up throwing insults all day and all night like, Nmaginate, because you allowed yourself to be made a fool of.

    For now, I'll just drop a little knowledge on you, Blaqfist, and leave you with the name of the "fictitious, high-ranking Japanese government official": Chiune Sugihara.

    Oh, by the way, Blaqfist, clean up the broken pieces of your face off of my forum floor please. Here's a broom and a dust pan.
    *Smoking a Cohiba while lounging in a leather recliner*

    Sometimes, Kevin41, it's much more satisfying to put a fool in his place with intelligence rather than insults.

    You know what, Blaqfist? I wasn't aware that you were paying so close attention to me. You're the third man on this site that has expressed such jealousy in my pictures. I also love it when boys like you can't help but express their jealousy in another man. That, in itself, sounds suspect.

    It's brothers like you, Blaqfist, Vox, Kevin41, and Nmaginate that have indirectly edified me on this site through your expression of jealousy and enviousness. All of you talk about me like you're a cackle of fat, envious women, "Who does that bitch think she is?" which is quite entertaining and hilarious to me.


    Has the embarrassment and humiliation sunk in enough yet, Blaqfist? No? Well, let me just add a little more insult to injury. Lets's move to the next unecessary comment you made:

    [QUOTE]]This is gettin frustrating at this point. On the surface your attempt to rationalize your argument sounds sophomoric and immature... "The Russians were giving the Jews "a hard time"...? Are you serious? I hardly doubt you will be able to prove your arguments; because I know / and you know that little spiel was complete bull.
    [/QUOTE


    You'll have to forgive my eagerness to make you look even more like a fool, Blaqfist. I have provided more of this "fictitious" information you have asked for:

    1904 - 1905
    Russo-Japanese War
    Japan wages war with Russia to strengthen control over resource-rich Manchuria, vital to Japan's growing industrial revolution. To finance the war, Japan secures a $200 million loan through Jewish-American financier Jacob Schiff. The world is stunned as Japan destroys the Russian navy, seizing Port Arthur (present-day Lushun). As a result of the loan, many in Japan draw exaggerated conclusions about the power of the Jewish people.

    That was actually just the begining of a long relationship between the Japanese and the Jews. Maybe I'll come up with some more unbelievable bullshit in the near future so I can continue making you guys look like fools.

    Just one more example to prove you idiots don't know everything--acting like a bunch of arrogant, cocky, small town teenagers looking for some trouble to get into--well you definately found what you're looking for.
    Nmaginate, by supporting the notion of "achieving independence and self-sufficiency from racist institutions" you are, in your ignorance and stupidity, admitting you do have separatist beliefs:


    Parallel to the white separatism, there also exists, particularly in the United States, a similarly politically marginal black separatist movement. Black separatists generally hold that whites are racist oppressors of blacks and that there can be no remedy for black advancement within contemporary white-dominated society. They believe that the only solution for blacks is to break away and to create a separate, segregated black society.

    You are in the minority in your thoughts, Nmaginate, as well as your close-minded buddy, Blaqfist. At least Blaqfist has the balls to admit his ignorance--you, Nmaginate are just a confused embecile.
    And you're a dumbass because your bold statement does not characterize what I believe. And I'd like to know when "self-sufficiency" became a bad word.

    As far as being in a minority with my views... I have absolutely no problem with that. I am well aware of where I stand. I have no misery. So I require no company. Nevertheless, DUMBASS my views are not alone.

    FYI, your bold statement (quoted or your own) my more accurately reflect what BLAQFIST believes. As for me supporting the notion of Independence and Self-Sufficiency... I guess your own note is an apt description of your views here:

    "...this [stuff IRONHOUSE is saying] sounds like the house nigger not wanting to see slavery end for fear of having to figure out how to fend for himself...

    So do you really believe the words of a self-conscious HOUSE NEGRO has some value? A LYING, Straw Man making, jumping-to-conclusion, Beliefs Afraid To Confront Illusions... self-conscious HOUSE NEGRO? sck

    For one, THERE ARE NO PARALLELS. By definition, Black "Separatism" is markedly different from White Separatism. SLEIGHT OF HAND LOGIC is employed by those that are Sleight In Intellect and HONESTY. The idea (of a true parallel) is logically and historically inaccurate and inconsistent.

    Further, or more specifically, I don't subscribe to this notion:

    They believe that the only solution for blacks is to break away and to create a separate, segregated black society.

    For you to actually believe that, especially after you've tried to act like you've observed my interactions (and in so doing surveyed my posts), then you really are a LYING MOFO!!

    I also want to know when INDEPENDENCE became a bad word. There is such a thing called the Fourth Of July. I doubt whether your dumbass curse it because it celebrates the creation of a "separate" society.

    Fuckin' half-wit... scream

    quote:
    Black separatists generally hold that whites are racist oppressors of blacks and that there can be no remedy for black advancement within contemporary white-dominated society.
    More proof that you were right about yourself. Only a dumb fuckin' Housy would quote/say something about White-DOMINATED society and not skip a beat. Moreover, I don't subscribe to a "NO REMEDY" ideology.

    Get a fuckin' clue.
    quote:
    And you're a dumbass because your bold statement does not characterize what I believe. And I'd like to know when "self-sufficiency" became a bad word.

    As far as being in a minority with my views... I have absolutely no problem with that. I am well aware of where I stand. I have no misery. So I require no company. Nevertheless, DUMBASS my views are not alone.



    Umm, Nmaginate, you forgot to quote this part of your thread. I think EbonyRose was right when she said:

    quote:
    When will I ever learn to stop banging my head against the brick wall that is your twisted and hallucinagenic logic? --EbonyRose, June 18, 2003 12:55am



    These repeated attempts to insult me are getting painfully redundant and really boring me, Nmaginate. I think this homosexual relationship you have with Kevin41 is also quite telling, from that 2003 thread I read, which is why I think he decided to join in on this little escapade earlier today.


    sleep Wake me up when you Type something worth reading.
    Last edited {1}
    quote:
    This is why I don't support my discussions with evidence of my source up front..


    elasti-girl, elasti-girl, elasti-girl....

    I hate to get of topic; but providing evidence for what you say, usually is the 1st topic covered in most college Debate & Argumentation classes; elasti-girl....

    But I digress..

    Providing a book review as your proof is a start (not a great one) but a start nonetheless.
    .

    Chiune Sugihara story is very compelling and I think I am going to buy this book, but you exaggerate the "impact" he made. There were German citizens, members of the Catholic Church, and people from all over the world who helped Jews escape the Nazi's as well.

    You imply that the entire Japanese government was in on it though..

    You still have not pointed out this phantom "Dutch island" that off the coast of Japan...?

    quote:
    "The reason why the Japanese and the Jews had a relationship to begin with was because the Japanese needed funding to fight the Russians. No one would fund the Japanese but a Jewish banker in New York (Who is this mystery New York Jewish banker? And now you claim an American citizen was helping the Japanese). The Jewish banker agreed to fund the Japanese because, at the time, the Russians was (were) giving the Jews a very hard time.


    That statement is complete fiction!



    Oh yea, your still short.
    Short in height & reasoning capacities
    You will not beleive this ya'll..

    elasti-girls "proof" that financier/banker Jacob Schiff funded the Japanese WW2 war machince is as full of crapp as she is..

    He gave me a link from a white power web site.

    And it still did'nt prove his point..

    Jacob Schiff gave the Russians money to fund the Bolshevik Revolution. According to this idiots own link...

    For the record elasti-girl WW2 & the Bolshevik Revolution were 2 different conlicts.
    quote:
    elasti-girls "proof" that financier/banker Jacob Schiff funded the Japanese WW2 war machince is as full of crapp as she is..


    Blaqfist, you have to be one of the most ignorant, on top of jealous and envious, fools on this site, next to Nmaginate and Captain Cartoon Network, AudioGuy, which reminds me, yeah, AudioGuy, as long as you pop your Pinky and the Brain, simpleton ass all over the place, following my forums and posting snide comments, I'm going to keep your silly ass name in my mouth.

    Now, back to you, Blaqfist--being 6'1" and 235 pounds sure hasn't done much for your intelligence or your attention span--you sound like a fat ass, beer belly, Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles lifetime member-looking, motherfucker, Blaqfist. Come on and be a man-- post your pic on avatar instead of hiding behind an old ass picture of some Black Panthers. I'm sitting here laughing my ass off because you sounded like some fat ass, jealous homosexual--talking about my pic like you're some kinda flaming ass faggit. That, porky, is, alone, so suspect, I bet you have a lavender mousepad and a dick-shaped mouse.



    You have to be the dumbest loser on this site or you're so embarrassed from making a fool out of yourself, for running off at the mouth like Joan Rivers after finishing off a 40, that you're making shit up. First of all, you alienated nut, where the hell did I say, Jacob Schiff funded the Japanese in WWII? Copy and paste the post where I said that, you lying tub of lard.Pry the cheeseburger away from your fat ass face and wipe the chicken grease from your glasses and read again, fatso.

    Don't worry, Blaqfist, I'm not going to let your simple-minded ass digress--let me remind you of the ignorant ass statement you made:

    quote:
    ]I believe this is a figment of your imagination, why would; or how could a high ranking Japanese government official be able to pull this off? At the time Japan was a monarchy, the person trying to get away with this would be committing treason, in effect helping the enemies of a country that his home country was at war with.


    Not only did I prove your ignorant ass wrong, I even used a site that provided a picture of the book, as well as the specific feat, Chiune Sugihara, executed--forging 6000 passports without Japan's knowledge, which he suffered for later. I doubt you could even do more than 3 pushups without coughing your cholesterol-clogged heart up out of your mouth, let alone forge 6000 passports in Japanese, by yourself.

    I don't care how many insults and lies you sling across cyberspace--I don't care whether you waffle and make up excuses about whether the site isn't to your liking,the fact is, you said the whole story was a figment of my imagination, and I proved your dough boy ass wrong. Just be a fucking man, at least half a man, take the tampon out of your anus, and admit you were wrong.

    quote:
    You imply that the entire Japanese government was in on it though..


    You're a fuckingliar, Blaqfist--you lying, fat ass, sack of shit. I said, "one high-ranking Japanese official."

    quote:
    You still have not pointed out this phantom "Dutch island" that off the coast of Japan...?


    First of all, I said they sailed from Japan--you make up so much bullshit to try to cover up the fact that I made you look like an ass
    in front of your Punky Brewster, blues clues buddies, that you're just typing up anything. You said you were going to purchase the book, so shut the fuck up and go get the damn book, you lying ass loser.

    quote:
    You will not beleive this ya'll..


    Who the fuck you talking to, Blaqfist? It's been nearly two days and nobody has come to your aid--it's because your buddies saw the proof for themselves and left you hanging. You so bad, Mr. paperdoll Black Panther, what the fuck do you need an audience for? I'm coming at you with cold, hard facts, not insults, lies and fuckery.

    quote:
    For the record elasti-girl WW2 & the Bolshevik Revolution were 2 different conlicts.


    No fucking shit, you cellulite challenged lard ass. Show me where I said one damn thing about WWII, and the only reason why you can even put the name, Bolshevikin your big flapping mouth is because I posted a link to the website that tells you about Schiff's involvement with the Japanese.

    You're a fucking liar, Blaqfist, and, even worse, you're an underhanded, evil ass, cowardly ass son of a bitch. I can't stand a lying ass coward that needs an audience to gain enough courage to engage in a conversation.

    You're out of your league, Blaqfist, in every sense of the term. You need to go join a gym and lose some of the fat that's applying so much pressure to your brain.
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
    ..and, HeruStar, you will always remain on my list of sorry ass negroes with a bruised ego, right along with LimDem, Vox, Nmaginate, kevin41, and AudioGuy. QUOTE]


    Look you little midget sonofabitch...be kool...so when I see you I do not rest my beer on your head while I watch the game....some skank told you that gay azz calendar pose looks good or something......if ya azz was straight, you would probably have posted that picture somewhere for the sisters..and as so far as a bruised ego........bro, don't flatter yourself....but there is nothing like a negro who flaps his gums and then praises himself after the fact....kinda like how that dumb azz president nods his head when he thinks he's convinced someone that the stupid azz schit coming out of his mouth has validity...now if you think about it in perspective, your bitch azz came in here and tried to garner the attention of the fellas in here...and in a way that is real hoe-like.......wanting to go through love-spats with everyone...man you are both a mental and a physical spetacle of a brother and do not know it.....so I do not have much else to say to ya lil sawed-off emotionally female beligerent azz............
    quote:
    Originally posted by blaqfist:
    Me jealous of you?

    elasti-girl, I don't have a pic to show you what I look like, but I am 6'1 & 235 pounds.

    Why on earth would I be jealous of you?

    Should I want to be short?

    What advantages does being short have?

    You do pay less at the movie theaters then I do...


    **You forgot amusement park rides....oh that's right...he can't ride em...because when they lower the bar for your waist, it hits him in the forehead............
    quote:
    Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
    Captain Cartoon Network, AudioGuy, which reminds me, yeah, AudioGuy, as long as you pop your Pinky and the Brain, simpleton ass all over the place, following my forums and posting snide comments, I'm going to keep your silly ass name in my mouth...
    Wow... you really don't have a life...

    When you posted a "cartoon" as your avatar, what was that??

    You have truly gone off the deep end... you are truly mentally unstable... get some help!
    Kweli4Real--Oh please, PLEASEmake a request to, MBM: Create an entire forum for ego deflated, insecure, manhood easily threatened by a picture of a man, losers like Blountfist, umm, I mean, Blaqfist, and his hop-along Cassidy sidekick, Nmurinate, I mean, Nmaginate, and, Vox (The "V" is for VESTITE). You could name the forum SMACK DOWN/R.A.W. (Retarded Ass Wannabee intellectuals).

    Kevin41--and you call yourself a college professor. Stop cheerleading on the sidelines like a stuck up, ponytail-wearing, panty wedgy- having white, valley girl, B squad, chearleader. If you ain't got nothing constructive or significant to offer to the conversation, you need to sit your sniveling ass down too--fix me a sammich or something.

    AudioGuy--you're even envious of the comic art--a pic that looks edifyingly like me. You don't have the charisma, the style nor the rugged good looks to have someone model a comic book character after you. Sit down and shut the fuck up, Audioguy, you're getting silly puddy all over my forum floor.

    Nmaginate--I saved you for last because I know you're my biggest fan. I know, Nmaginate, why don't you create a whole nother' website and name it IHATEIRONHORSE.ORG.

    You know what, Nmurinate? In the process of selecting a website to support my discussion on, Jacob Schiff, I never took one split second to read the name of the website. I don't give a fuck if it was a white supremist site, a black supremist site, a hispanic supremist site, an asian supremist site, a foodtv.com site or a Pokemon supremist site: THE FACTS ARE RIGHT THERE IN YOUR FACE.

    You want to go to another website, where you'll find the same information but under a different name--suit yourself--you'll still find the same information.

    Oh yeah, and by the way, don't even think of trying to paint me in a negative light--thinking your shrewd deed will somehow dilute the credibility of the sources I chose to quote my info from. You don't know who the fuck you're dealing with--I don't give a fuck what you or anyone else on this website thinks about me--you can't deny the facts, and the facts are, I can shut you motherfuckers down at will--at my nearest convenience. I'm a literary terminator--no audience, no amount of biased supporters, no amout of slanderous insults, no amount of undermining comments, and no amount of resistance can stop me. You're helpless, you're compelled, you hate my guts but you can't wait to see what I'll say next, and I'm still not even full throttle on you techincal school rejects.

    I'm the last person on your mind when you go to sleep, the first person on your mind when you log on in the morning and scurry to AA.org, "What did that motherfucker, IRONHORSE, say today?"

    You ain't ready forreal......
    quote:
    Hay, ya'll information is information, regardless of where you get it....

    I see elasti-girl likes to do a little web-surfin'...


    Shut the fuck up, Blaqfist.

    You contested my discussion--you lost.

    It's over, Blaqfist.

    Stop whining, shut the fuck up, and sit down.

    You're fired. Clean your desk out and turn your office keys in.

    It's over--THE END.
    quote:
    First of all, you alienated nut, where the hell did I say, Jacob Schiff funded the Japanese in WWII? Copy and paste the post where I said that, you lying tub of lard.
    elasti-girl.


    Hear that erre'body? That is the sound of the truth being stretched. Well unfortunately I cannot find the place where you said that, but you just happened to use the two in the same paragraph w/ out making any distinctions. (My bad). That is a pretty good piece of rhetoric there iron azz, to be really general and not make any distinctions, kind of leaves the discussion open hungh? No one can really pin you down on anything. Pretty slick.

    quote:
    It was due to one Japanese governmental official that single-handedly forged thousands of passports for the escaping Jews so that they may enter Japan, and thereby sail to a Dutch settled island. ironazz


    "enter Japan, and thereby sail to a Dutch island". That is the real zinger here. All I have to go on is you claim they entered Japan and then no mention is made of them doing anything other then sailing to a Dutch island. I assumed they went from Japan to an island that is reasonably close (200-300 miles) to Japan.. (My bad again)

    quote:
    Why did the Japanese agree to help the Jews? Because Rabbis convinced Japanese governmental officials that after the Nazis were through exterminating the Jews they would be next to be exterminated due to the fact that the Nazis' plan was to populate the world with a blue-eyed, blonde-haired super race. ironazz


    Wow, this one is kinda hard for me to reconcile here, ironazz.. You specifically mention the Nazis (who did not exist during Bolshevik Revolution), you also mention "Japanese government officials" I can safely assume that that means at least 2 people and you mention the Nazi extermination of the Jews (a WW2 event)?

    quote:
    "The reason why the Japanese and the Jews had a relationship to begin with was because the Japanese needed funding to fight the Russians. No one would fund the Japanese but a Jewish banker in New York. The Jewish banker agreed to fund the Japanese because, at the time, the Russians was (were) giving the Jews a very hard time. ironazz


    Well according to your "source" Mr. Schiff assisted the Communist Bolsheviks in overthrowing the Russian Monarchy. The Japanese did fight the Russians for possession of Manchuria (but that was a completely different war???). I still think you actually have your wars mixed up..
    quote:
    ]Chiune Sugihara story is very compelling and I think I am going to buy this book,


    It's been THREE(3) days, Blaqfist--did you jog your fat ass to the bookstore and get the book, like I told you, or did you get distracted by the aroma of baking doughnuts at Krispy Kreme and make a detour?

    You have nothing to say to me on anything regarding the jews and the Japanese, until you take your fat ass to the bookstore, and read the motherfucking book.
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
    Kevin41--and you call yourself a college professor. Stop cheerleading on the sidelines like a stuck up, ponytail-wearing, panty wedgy- having white, valley girl, B squad, chearleader. If you ain't got nothing constructive or significant to offer to the conversation, you need to sit your sniveling ass down too--fix me a sammich or something.
    QUOTE]

    ** negro, shut the hell up....you are a damn comedian, spectacle of a fool if there ever was one..you sound as if you really are accomplishing something in your own mind...another self-proclaimed legend....i find you to be amusing as hell...and I do not have to CALL myself anything...the paper and the pay says it all......i betcha you are one of those DL brothers people talk about........and the way you are spewing emotional bullshit all over the board, your panties must be bloody as hell right about now....amazing.....sit your lil hoe azz down and learn something...........

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