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...Now, Nmaginate, it's your turn, you sorry bastard:

When I searched the web with the name, Jacob Schiff, This is the address that came up in the results: http://wsi.matriots.com/BankersRussRev.html

Do you SEE anything in that link above that says ANYTHING about WHITE SUPREMACY, you dumb fuck? NO. I had nothing to do with the page discussing the Boleshevik Revolution being linked to that white supremacy site, and you fucking know it. You're the dumbass fuck that can't read, Nmaginate--like I said before, FIND THE FUCKING POST I MADE WHERE I DISCUSSED A WHITE SUPREMACY SITE. Did you find it? NO.

Secondly, Nmaginate, you and Blaqfist kill me trying to give your own explanation of the Boleshevik revolution, from the fucking site I found, WHEN NEITHER OF YOU DUMBASSES KNEW THE RUSSIA/JAPAN WAR EXSISTED BEFORE I FOUND THE SITE!!! Now, step your lying ass up and say you knew about the Bolshevik Revolution before I presented the information to both of you losers. That's just like when I said one of the first endentured slaves owners, Anthony Johnson was black you motherfuckers thought I didn't know what I was talking about.

When I proved you bastards wrong, instead of just admitting you were wrong, you fuckers tried to cover up your humiliation by saying "He was a slave first." WHO GIVES A FUCK? The point was, he was FREE when he owned the endentured slaves, and he was one of the FIRST ENDENTURED SLAVE OWNERS.

I don't need either of you, Nmaginate or Blaqfist, to tell me shit about the Boleshevik Revolution especially when I was the one that provided the damn site to school you two lying ass losers on. When the Japanese searched for someone to back them in the war against the Russians they went to JACOB SCHIFF, whom was the one that authorized the 200 million dollars, you piece of shit. The Japanese did not go to Sweden when they were looking for a backer--they went to NEW YORK where they found Jacob Schiff. Olof Aschberg was mearly another banker that worked with Jacob Schiff. If you would read the fucking book on Chiune Sugihara you would know, you ignorant fuck.
I'm still sitting here, thinking to myself, "This motherfucker, Nmaginate, still hasn't accepted the fact that he wants support from C.U.R.E. to get reparations."

See, you can't trust a motherfucker like, Nmaginate--he's the kind of negro black people have be hornswaggled and bamboozled by back in the 60's--negroes walking around starting up fake ass revivals, trying to raise money to fund the trip back to Africa. After the negro got all the money he wanted and skipped town, you never saw that motherfucker again.

That's what kind of underhanded, flim flam artist Nmaginate is--He wants to pump that pro-black shit down everyone's throats, get reparations, put all the African Americans on ships back to Africa, and stay here with the white people in C.O.R.E. and run the nation.

Hail King Nmaginate!!! lol

Fucking loser.
DUDE, C.U.R.E. is in no wise something as objectionable (if it, CURE, is at all) as a clear WHITE SUPREMACIST site. Please note the JEW this, JEW that tone of the comments including the Jacob Schiff reference. Beyond the obvious "It's the JEWS!" slant, again, an intelligent person wants to know WHO THE FUCK IS "WE"?
quote:
We have said that the so-called Russian Revolution was "Jewish x 2." What we mean by that is that not only did Jews physically carry out that revolution, but Jews also paid for it as well...
Who is the "WE", IRONHORSE?

I mean, no author is named. Just this mysterious "WE" suggesting that the opinion reflects the view of the home site and not an author independent of the site. So anyone responsible who would ever quote/link to such a site-opinion would have to know who is giving the opinion. That's exactly why all your crying, besides being entertaining, is all so tragic for you.

And... you found nothing. I presented the link from CURE, again, a long time ago and never made any contradictory comments that it was not what it is/was.

If you had knowledge (or if you would have done your homework) you would hardly think or suggest that the idea of an African American Consultative Assembly originated with CURE or is somehow their brainchild just because it's on their site. Seems to me they are, the author is, speaking to something already considered and formulated by the International Human Rights Association of American Minorities (IHRAAM).

I don't know the relation but, it's interesting to note that the Chair of IHRAAM (at least in the past), Dr. Y. N. KLY, and the author from the CURE site, NURA KLY, share the same last name. It would seem she is articulating his idea.

quote:
Speech from the MILLION YOUTH MOVEMENT
Atlanta, Georgia, September 6th, 1998

"...IHRAAM was founded in 1985 at The Hague Academy of International Law in the Netherlands by African American students...

...on behalf of IHRAAM, I would like to respectfully present for the careful consideration of the organizers of this great event -- as well as all members of this distinguished audience -- a formal proposal which we call the "New Initiative." In essence, the "New Initiative" calls for a national plebiscite and the formation of a

National Consultative Assembly
of African American leadership
.

This duly selected national body would be empowered, under the rule of international law, to help manage and represent our collective interests
-- both before the U.S. government and appropriate international venues.

Dear Brothers and Sisters, IHRAAM very strongly suggests that peoples throughout the African Diaspora, particularly those of us in the Americas, begin to redefine the political and social context in which we conceptualize our collective problems. Instead of using antiquated and domestically created "Civil Rights" law (which has been created to legitimize and maintain our historical oppression), we must begin to chart our destiny for true liberation and self-determination within the context of international human rights law..."

http://www.geocities.com/ihraam/MYM_FM.html

You will notice this very link (below) at the bottom of the page that I linked you to with the
African American Consultative Assembly information. You will find this title and link at the
bottom of that page:
WCAR: Question of African-American Self-Determination
http://www.hri.ca/racism/Submitted/Author/ihraam.shtml

You will also notice at the bottom of that IHRAAM link this note:
    (4) In light of the overwhelming and statistically significant indications that African-American citizens are strongly desirous of exploring options leading to "Self-Determination" of their communities (in accordance with national/international law); it is strongly recommended that formal steps be taken to conduct a "National Plebiscite" on this issue among all African-American voters, while similarly striving to establish a "National Consultative Assembly" which would help monitor and oversee their collective concerns.
So, again, it doesn't appear as if this idea is the brainchild of C. U. R. E. - as if that mattered.
FYI, CURE was founded in 1992 whereas IHRAAM was founded in 1985.
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
DUDE, C.U.R.E. is in no wise something as objectionable (if it, CURE, is at all) as a clear WHITE SUPREMACIST site. Please note the JEW this, JEW that tone of the comments including the Jacob Schiff reference. Beyond the obvious "It's the JEWS!" slant, again, an intelligent person wants to know WHO THE FUCK IS "WE"?
quote:
We have said that the so-called Russian Revolution was "Jewish x 2." What we mean by that is that not only did Jews physically carry out that revolution, but Jews also paid for it as well...
Who is the "WE", IRONHORSE?

I mean, no author is named. Just this mysterious "WE" suggesting that the opinion reflects the view of the home site and not an author independent of the site. So anyone responsible who would ever quote/link to such a site-opinion would have to know who is giving the opinion. That's exactly why all your crying, besides being entertaining, is all so tragic for you.

And... you found nothing. I presented the link from CURE, again, a long time ago and never made any contradictory comments that it was not what it is/was.

If you had knowledge (or if you would have done your homework) you would hardly think or suggest that the idea of an African American Consultative Assembly originated with CURE or is somehow their brainchild just because it's on their site. Seems to me they are, the author is, speaking to something already considered and formulated by the International Human Rights Association of American Minorities (IHRAAM).

I don't know the relation but, it's interesting to note that the Chair of IHRAAM (at least in the past), Dr. Y. N. KLY, and the author from the CURE site, NURA KLY, share the same last name. It would seem she is articulating his idea.

quote:
Speech from the MILLION YOUTH MOVEMENT
Atlanta, Georgia, September 6th, 1998

"...IHRAAM was founded in 1985 at The Hague Academy of International Law in the Netherlands by African American students...

...on behalf of IHRAAM, I would like to respectfully present for the careful consideration of the organizers of this great event -- as well as all members of this distinguished audience -- a formal proposal which we call the "New Initiative." In essence, the "New Initiative" calls for a national plebiscite and the formation of a

National Consultative Assembly
of African American leadership
.

This duly selected national body would be empowered, under the rule of international law, to help manage and represent our collective interests
-- both before the U.S. government and appropriate international venues.

Dear Brothers and Sisters, IHRAAM very strongly suggests that peoples throughout the African Diaspora, particularly those of us in the Americas, begin to redefine the political and social context in which we conceptualize our collective problems. Instead of using antiquated and domestically created "Civil Rights" law (which has been created to legitimize and maintain our historical oppression), we must begin to chart our destiny for true liberation and self-determination within the context of international human rights law..."

http://www.geocities.com/ihraam/MYM_FM.html

You will notice this very link (below) at the bottom of the page that I linked you to with the
African American Consultative Assembly information. You will find this title and link at the
bottom of that page:
WCAR: Question of African-American Self-Determination
http://www.hri.ca/racism/Submitted/Author/ihraam.shtml

You will also notice at the bottom of that IHRAAM link this note:
    (4) In light of the overwhelming and statistically significant indications that African-American citizens are strongly desirous of exploring options leading to "Self-Determination" of their communities (in accordance with national/international law); it is strongly recommended that formal steps be taken to conduct a "National Plebiscite" on this issue among all African-American voters, while similarly striving to establish a "National Consultative Assembly" which would help monitor and oversee their collective concerns.
So, again, it doesn't appear as if this idea is the brainchild of C. U. R. E. - as if that mattered.
FYI, CURE was founded in 1992 whereas IHRAAM was founded in 1985.


I will take all of this yip yap you just wasted time to type up, nmaginate, as your way of saying, "I fucked up, and you made me look like a fool in the process, IRONHORSE."

quote:
I mean, no author is named. Just this mysterious "WE" suggesting that the opinion reflects the view of the home site and not an author independent of the site. So anyone responsible who would ever quote/link to such a site-opinion would have to know who is giving the opinion. That's exactly why all your crying, besides being entertaining, is all so tragic for you. --nmaginate


Notice how I typed your name with a lowercase "n."--it's because I know you feel about as small as a lower case "n" right about now--dude, what the FUCK point does it make to argue about who was the author of the information on the Boleshevik Revolution? WHO CARES? The point is, the information is TRUE and ACCURATE.

The fact that the information I found on Jacob Schiff was linked to a white supremist website is irrelevent--once again, the point is THE INFORMATION IS TRUE AND ACCURATE.

Thank you for participating and losing this, yet another, debate. Have a nice day.
"What the FUCK point does it make to argue about who was the author of the information on the Boleshevik Revolution? WHO CARES?

Obviously.... YOU DID!!!
Nothing else can explain your many varied and vehement DENIALS!! Big Grin

The point is, the information is TRUE and ACCURATE.

Well, for someone who cares to debate, contend or affirm that... that might be important. But, what I said remains relevant. The very language makes the presentation of information suspect. Again, when you link to a site and there's this mysterious "WE" floating around there who the author is... is very important. Or should I say authors...

The author's credentials are important as well. Because if truthfulness and accuracy is what you say is important or rather was important to you then the author's ability to research and report things truthfully and accurately or rather their motivation to be less than truthful and accurate are abounding concerns.... WHEN YOU LINK TO THAT SHIT on any site that has reason not to see the brotherhood of WHITE REVOLUTION as reputable sources.

Further, there was absolutely no scholarly or serious tone to the piece. All the more reason to call the author and his identity into question. And, the fact that it is a WHITE SUPREMACIST site that has this piece pointing fingers at some Jew or Jews makes their scholarship, questionable even without the tone, especially considering the other links and comments about Jews on the site.

As I've said elsewhere, if not here, EVEN THE DEVIL KNOWS THE TRUTH. The Devil Is In The Details and the Twists that the piece may have on the truth which impacts it's accuracy. And since there is a certain picture painted and since the piece was more commentary than actual FACT reporting, then the picture painted is very much at issue in spite of the possibility of some truth.... SOME truth and some measure of accuracy that may have been in the piece.

Again, it was more COMMENTARY (as noted by "WE"... hardly FACT-oriented writing style)... than REPORTING or historical documentation.

So, yes! I've lost again. Lost so much by debunking every piece of dumb shit you've said. So, I graciously accept my consolation of not coming in 1st Place... (In A Race for SUCKERS!!) lol

quote:
Mad YOU'RE A FUCKING ASS LIAR, NMAGINATE!!! Mad
...............................................
upset I CAN'T STAND A MOTHERFUCKING LYING ASS BITCH!! upset

ek Do you SEE anything in that link above that says ANYTHING about WHITE SUPREMACY, you dumb fuck? ek
Dude, it wasn't like what either me or Blaqfist said about the site wasn't clear (that the HOME page which the "WE" referenced was WHITE REVOLUTION -- i.e. your friendly net-neighborhood White Supremacist, "hate" Jews, "hate" N*ggers... website).

So either you're admitting to having absolutely no integrity at all by responding in error to what we said about you linking to such a site and/or you knew it was but were hoping you could weasel your fat ass out of it -- just like you're trying to do with this backdoor "the author is irrelevant" BULLSHIT! You don't have those kind of skills, IRONHORSE. You're not a Switch Hitter. You can't change-up in mid At Bats and not STRIKE-the-fuck-OUT!!
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
"What the FUCK point does it make to argue about who was the author of the information on the Boleshevik Revolution? WHO CARES?

Obviously.... YOU DID!!!
Nothing else can explain your many varied and vehement DENIALS!! Big Grin

The point is, the information is TRUE and ACCURATE.

Well, for someone who cares to debate, contend or affirm that... that might be important. But, what I said remains relevant. The very language makes the presentation of information suspect. Again, when you link to a site and there's this mysterious "WE" floating around there who the author is... is very important. Or should I say authors...

The author's credentials are important as well. Because if truthfulness and accuracy is what you say is important or rather was important to you then the author's ability to research and report things truthfully and accurately or rather their motivation to be less than truthful and accurate are abounding concerns.... WHEN YOU LINK TO THAT SHIT on any site that has reason not to see the brotherhood of WHITE REVOLUTION as reputable sources.

Further, there was absolutely no scholarly or serious tone to the piece. All the more reason to call the author and his identity into question. And, the fact that it is a WHITE SUPREMACIST site that has this piece pointing fingers at some Jew or Jews makes their scholarship, questionable even without the tone, especially considering the other links and comments about Jews on the site.

As I've said elsewhere, if not here, EVEN THE DEVIL KNOWS THE TRUTH. The Devil Is In The Details and the Twists that the piece may have on the truth which impacts it's accuracy. And since there is a certain picture painted and since the piece was more commentary than actual FACT reporting, then the picture painted is very much at issue in spite of the possibility of some truth.... SOME truth and some measure of accuracy that may have been in the piece.

Again, it was more COMMENTARY (as noted by "WE"... hardly FACT-oriented writing style)... than REPORTING or historical documentation.

So, yes! I've lost again. Lost so much by debunking every piece of dumb shit you've said. So, I graciously accept my consolation of not coming in 1st Place... (In A Race for SUCKERS!!) lol

quote:
Mad YOU'RE A FUCKING ASS LIAR, NMAGINATE!!! Mad
...............................................
upset I CAN'T STAND A MOTHERFUCKING LYING ASS BITCH!! upset

ek Do you SEE anything in that link above that says ANYTHING about WHITE SUPREMACY, you dumb fuck? ek
Dude, it wasn't like what either me or Blaqfist said about the site wasn't clear (that the HOME page which the "WE" referenced was WHITE REVOLUTION -- i.e. your friendly net-neighborhood White Supremacist, "hate" Jews, "hate" N*ggers... website).

So either you're admitting to having absolutely no integrity at all by responding in error to what we said about you linking to such a site and/or you knew it was but were hoping you could weasel your fat ass out of it -- just like you're trying to do with this backdoor "the author is irrelevant" BULLSHIT! You don't have those kind of skills, IRONHORSE. You're not a Switch Hitter. You can't change-up in mid At Bats and not STRIKE-the-fuck-OUT!!


Translation: I need whitey's help, more importantly, CAUCASIANS UNITED for REPARATIONS & EMANCIPATION's help, to secure reparations for black people so I can get in good with whitey by helping whitey overcome their guilt and remorse for oppressing blacks, and get free passes to Disney Land.
quote:
Your shit has been put to sleep.
As always, the facts stand against you no matter how many senseless posts you make in denial.


What facts are stacked against me? Who put me to sleep?

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HA HA HA HAH AHA HA HA!!

It doesn't matter when CURE was created--you want their help.

WHAT DO YOU NEED WHITEY'S HELP FOR, NMAGINATE?

WHO PUT ME TO SLEEP, NMAGINATE? Most certainly, not your contradictory, caucasian ass. In fact, all of the opposition has been against YOU, nmaginate. It's funny how people that have opposed your childish rantings, people that you've sided with before, are all of a sudden too ignorant to offer any discussion on reparations because they don't agree with you.

WHAT FACTS STAND AGAINST ME, NMAGINATE?

The words of your own mentor, Haiki R. Madhubuti, support my discussion more than his words supports yours, primarily because you only discuss the pot of gold at the other end of the rainbow--you don't provide a map of how black people are to get to that pot of gold.

We're not talking about educating a few hundred black kids in K-8, we're talking about educating an entire race of people--educating all children of all exceptionalities in K-12--then what do you propose we do at the post secondary level? What do we do at the graduate level? What do we do at the post graduate level?

What good are black oriented private schools to children that live in areas of the country where the dropout rate is between 20 to 36 percent? What good are black oriented private schools to children that don't even know how to read and write?

What good are new black banks and lending institutions to single parent families that earn a median income of an estimated $5,900? Just because a black bank or black lending institution is black owned doesn't mean they can pay special favors to black customers--they will still have to abide by the normal rules, regulations and sanctions that have always been in effect.

Many black people don't even have a checking or savings account. Many black people don't even know how to balance a check book, which leads back to the issue of having these black oriented private schools--what kind of curriculum do you plan on implementing in these private schools? I mean, think about it, nmaginate, it's one thing to have a few store front schools--an academy or two--but to provide black-oriented education and black facilities to an entire race of people?

I could bog you down with the magnitude of running a network of school systems, especially a network of private school systems, that would hem you up for the next 2 years, and we haven't even touched on the issue of black banks and lending institutions.

So, tell me, nmaginate, how do you go about hiring enough black teachers to teach in these black-oriented private schools? How will you be able to offer competitive salaries to these black teachers in accordance to your public school competition? Do you expect this body of teachers to provide their own medical benefits or will you do business with various healthcare providers that are largely racist institutions?

Yeah, I remember the ignorant ass answer you made when I asked you how many trillions of dollars it would take just to facilitate the process of this private education system of yours, and you responded, "I haven't thought of a number." That was brilliant, nmaginate.

Even if your idea of taking black taxes out of the hands of the IRS to create start-up capital worked, it wouldn't cover enough of the cost of educating an entire race of people in this country, it wouldn't cover the cost for land, materials, manpower, an educational and administrative infrastructure as well as a plant and maintenance network to maintain this network of school systems.

There are so many variables that you don't have the capacity to comprehend in the effort to establish an independent and self-sufficient society. Maybe you should stick to playing with silly ass happy faces and quoting the ideas of other people all day everyday.
Still waiting for something other than a NON-contribution from you.

And one major "variable" is what your "surprise" source (Haki Madhubuti, whom you presumed was unknown to me or others) called the ANTAGONISM (of HOUSIES):
    "Yeah, I know this sounds like the house nigger not wanting to see slavery end for fear of having to figure out how to fend for himself..."
The things self-conscious people will do via ANTAGONISM to hide their own INSECURITIES.


This time, NO THANKS for your non-contribution.
Perhaps you should start by not assuming things you don't know. You have had your hand burned too many times already.

......"My Mentor"......
Please find or go buy you some new tactics.
You got a box of DUDS!!

It's that HOUSY fear that makes you say, "there are so many variables". Yet you say that while depreciating the very DE-PROGRAMMING you called yourself talking about.

GET A FUCKIN' CLUE!!
What the hell are you so damn scared of??

Please find someone else to detail all your insecurities and fears and depressed views of Black people. Apparently, they immobilize you.

"We are a disorganized people, etc., etc."

Well, I guess it makes no sense to try to organize, huh? td6
You are a true follower in every sense of the term, nmaginate--you reflect every move and prediction I make of you.

When I let you think you may have the goods on me, in the case of the "house nigger" joke I wrote, which you're still milking like you got the slip on me (I'm still cracking up that you're using my own joke that I planted for your biligerent pleasure), you write long ass posts filled with childish happy faces bouncing all over the place.

When I box you in a corner and make you look stupid, particularly in the case of pulling the Madhubuti card or proving you want help from white people in your black liberation movement, your posts drop down to one or two paragraphs and one little stupid smiley face.

You kill me saying I don't know what you're thinking but you spring every little strategic literary trap I set for you because you're predictable.

Like I said before, I would have paid money to see your facial expression to my quotes on Madhubuti: "Who the hell is Haki R. Madhubuti?" Yeah--don't lie--you know you fell for that--HOOK, LINE, AND SINKER--or you wouldn't have quoted that very line I planted, once again, for your biligerent pleasure.

no, his words weren't taken out of context--his words are in direct accordance to what I believe could be achieved through reparations--establishing a viable black socio-political and euntreprenural base in inner cities, establishing multi-purpose social wellness centers in various predominately black communities that incorporate the talents of various service professionals from the business and collegiate sector, and educational reform in public schools, emphasizing a homogenous, national multi-cultural curriculum.

I already knew a sucker like you would care less about the personal philosophies of people like Debra Dickerson or John McWhorter because you subscribe to what you believe is a better standard of 'blackness' which I find to be particularly amusing yet repulsive, which is why, once again, I pulled the Madhubuti card.

You can throw all the insults and slanderous comments, wax and wain, posture and pose, waffle and lie all you want, Nmaginate--you know I have your number. You know you have no creative, realistic, practical ideas of your own and you try to hide that weakness you have of lack of creativity and vision through all these silly ass rantings and temper tantrums.
Dude, one of these days you might be able to hold my jock. As for now, you punk is just JOCKIN' Me.

"Oh Nmag! Nmag!"

BITCH!!! I got you calling my name!

You've been SCORNED!!
And that's why you have to try your best to "Nullify" me. None of you shit stacks up. But it is entertaining (not!) how you just go with the wind.

"You know I have your number"

Yeah. That's why you're always contradicting yourself and saying silly shit that doesn't even begins to make sense. Maybe you learned that dumbshit on you WHITE REVOLUTION site. The place where you got all you "BLACKNESS"... (I mean FAKEness!)

IRONHORSE = the perpetual SCORNED Nmag LOVER!!
...and at this point, I will chose to depart from this sorry azz discussion full of YOU getting shot down by OTHER PEOPLE for coming up with such a STUPID ASS idea of taking black dollars from the IRS.

Only 3 pages of "Ideal Reparations II" yet there are 8 pages of "Ideal Reparations."

Unless you plan on arguing with yourself, I'm not going to give you the distinction of creating several more pages of this trash. Im pulling the plug on your nickel and dime operation, Heheheheheheh...

Here's some lotion, and a 1976 issue of "Players" magazine, nmaginate--I'm sure you know what to do with them.
Dude, you've basically been arguing with yourself the whole time. You don't know how to even begin to conduct a discussion, much less a debate.

Absolutely NO TRUTH and absolutely NO SUBSTANCE from you at absolutely NO TIME. Dude, you're too damn funny to even get my dick hard. I mean, at least make a real argument if you want to take issue with something I said.

But this gay-ASS fabri-embellishment shit you do is off the chains... The ones wrapped around your HOUSINESS!

But it is funny... You Play Games... but you're always the one Getting Played -- whether it's by Yours Truly or you Playing Yourself!!

Oh and many thanks for you Many... and I mean many NON-CONTRIBUTIONS. lol
quote:
My response to you is I have just as much basis as you do to predicate my "truth" in whatever light I see it.

Silly.... You were not talking about "your truth". You were responding, commenting, remarking about what I presented here and doing so DISHONESTLY. There is no basis or right to be dishonest and then, as you are, trying to justify it because you don't want to own up to your statements or unveil the BS working/lurking in your mind.
Nmaginate

You're absolutely right. My bad.

quote:
Words like "counterproductive" won't save you.


Well how about counter-revolutionary? I apologize for my internal subconscious agenda previously. Reparations has sparked an interest and growing passion within. I imagine us going to war together, and arguing whether we should take semi-automatic or automatic weapons, should we use hand grenades or rpg's? The answer is we'll need all of the above, for this war, this revolution to work for us.

Having said that, Black control of black taxes, is a best a smokescreen. Wait till we throw this at em' bsm
HERU,

I don't present my actual prescriptions, actual policy type programs, etc. as the End All, Be All. I've come to the conclusions and proposed what I have from the way I see it. And I'm perfectly comfortable with other people seeing it differently.

What I am firmly set on are PRINCIPLES. In that sense, I'm a strict constructionist, I guess. So when anything anybody says that doesn't seem to me to be in-keeping with what I feel are the objectively observeable and ascertainable PRINCIPLES then that's what I disagree with.

So, if someone can come up with a "better" plan that fully addresses the principles... then I'm all for it. Likewise, I'm all for a varied and multi-faceted approach. And, yes, now that you say it, I do indeed believe we have to present at least two effective opinions...

Then, IMO, our position is: CHOOSE ONE.

That to me is an abundantly better position than just taking whatever is offered.

NO!! This one or that one.
That seems to be the lesson even Malcolm X himself felt was his role in the Civil Rights Movement's victories. Deal with them or deal with us.

Isn't that how negotiations work?
You don't start off low. You undercut and undersell yourself. Not a very smart idea, if you ever really think you and what you're fighting for is worth anything...

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