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I finally found the Black women's reply to the "Where is the love?'" from Tampa

RoweRoweA1
I've been monitoring this debate, and apparently, both of you are trying to convey a similar message: Be more realistic. Black women: you can't have the Denzel look-alike with a six figure salary. And Black men: You can't have the tiny-figured Halle Berry look-alike who waits on you hand and foot. So I have a question for readers. Do you all think this culture's obsession with mega super stars has interferred with everyday people's interest in the opposite sex? Perhaps our standards are not too high, but have been influenced by someone else's standards.

A quick example: While in High school, the program "Martin" had just began its first season, and somehow, our class got on the topic of the female characters ("Gina" and "Pam") being played by actresses Tisha Campbell and Tashina Arnold. One of the boys in the class raved about how "ugly" he thought the character Pam was compared to Gina. My geomtry teacher, a African-American woman, who sported a natural, told him that if you saw Pam walking down the halls of this high school, every dude in here would be after her. She said the problem is the entertainment industry inflates the viewers standards of what is beautiful.
SweetwuzzySweetwuzzyA1
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
You guys are all completely missing the point of qty's post (and all the others posts like hers that have come before). Do none of you see the disparity between the two standards she pointed out? It doesn't strike any of you as ODD that it is fine and even considered "rational" for a Black man to want the best looking woman available ("Who wouldn't choose a video girl over a 200 lb woman?" was the gist of the quote, I believe), but a Black woman is immediately scolded (as we see from the posts immediately following qty's post) for wanting anything "too fancy." She must be open to the buck-toothed, hump-backed janitor, but it's "just common sense" for the Black man to only want the Halle Berry and Beyonce look-a-likes. All of that was lost on you all?

The point is NOT that "janitors aint shit" or however else things were apparently interpreted. It's the double standard.



Exactly !!! thanks
SweetwuzzySweetwuzzyA1
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
Two things:
1 - Gambit, I wasn't talking to you. Turn that frown upside down.

2 - HonestB, you're still missing it, baby. Hee hee. It is not that men are going out and dating these "perfect women," it's that it's perfectly okay for them to want that and the same is not true for us. THAT is the double standard. It works like this:

In front of a man stands Halle Berry and a random Plain Jane.

Man: I choose Halle!
Crowd Reaction: Naturally! Who wouldn't?

In front of a woman stands Denzel and a random Plain Joe.

Woman: I choose Denzel!
Crowd Reaction: That's what's wrong with you all. What makes you think you are worthy of dating a Denzel? You all are focused on the wrong things and need to be open to all types of Black men and stop trying to go for the Denzels. Why does a brotha have to have all of this stuff before you will look at him? What happened to growing with a brotha? And if Denzel cheats on you, you deserve it and I'm gonna laugh because that is what you get going after those types of desireable men.



thanks
HonestBrotherHonestBrotherA1
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Do you all think this culture's obsession with mega super stars has interferred with everyday people's interest in the opposite sex? Perhaps our standards are not too high, but have been influenced by someone else's standards.


thanks

We're going back and forth 'debating' whether it is right or wrong to desire scenarios that will rarely if ever happen.

The average brotha dating Beyonce

The average sista dating Denzel

Double standard or not, these scenarios are fantasies... Media Creations.

* Dear Sistas and Brothas, let's get REAL * tfro
SweetwuzzySweetwuzzyA1
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
I still believe the "few good mates" argument is overblown & overhyped. People because of their preferences and flaws (recognized & unrecognized), sabotage many of their relationships. People should have:

Realistic expectations
Honest self-assessment
Objectivity in assessing a relationship
Willingness to forgive (themselves & others)
Adaptability


Too many people have rigid views of themselves, others, and relationships. Who knows, that single mom or blue collar man may surprise you!



thanks thanks
FrenchyFrenchyA1
For God's Sake! Denzel and Halle are only examples. The double standard plays out in normal everyday life!

"What makes you think you deserve to date an attractive attorney?"
"That's what you get for dating a 'pretty boy'?"
"Who wouldn't choose the girl with the big butt over the brainiac? It's only natural to go after what is visually appealing!"

Etc.

This is NOT about specifically dating Denzels and Halles. This is NOT about lowering dating expectations. It's not about speicifcally dating anyone at all really. It is an observation of WHAT IS.

And I reject the idea that because these "ideal mates" are not who most of us end up with that there is no damage done. It is tremendously harmful to place these mental barriers on only women for having any sort of ambition for a mate. It's nothing more than another way to beat up on women and give men a pass. Most of us do not end up as atronauts and doctors, but we would never say it's fine to discourage kids from dreaming of that future because they must remain "in reality."

Sexism has NO defense. 99% of my grief would be relieved if men would spend as much time trying to counsel and advise each other rather than the opposite sex. IMO, 99% of men would quickly change their views if they were advising another man on the very same subject.
HonestBrotherHonestBrotherA1
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
"What makes you think you deserve to date an attractive attorney?"
"That's what you get for dating a 'pretty boy'?"
"Who wouldn't choose the girl with the big butt over the brainiac? It's only natural to go after what is visually appealing!"


Frenchy, I think I hear ya. But the "attractive attorney" or "doctor" and the "pretty boy" may be just other versions of "Denzel": widespread cultural ideals of what we're "supposed to want".

I don't ever hear people setting their sights for the attractive engineer or mathematician or dentist. Much less the ambitious and intelligent young janitor.

And I love Brainiacs - especially if they're cute - notice I said "cute" - not necessarily "fine"....
FrenchyFrenchyA1
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
What if "the total package" is just a fantasy too?


I think we all know that the "perfect" partner doesn't exist. But there is certainly a hierarchy of mates: men or women who are more suitable or the most desireable, etc. It's that "cream of the crop" within the gender that I mean.
HonestBrotherHonestBrotherA1
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
I think we all know that the "perfect" partner doesn't exist. But there is certainly a hierarchy of mates: men or women who are more suitable or the most desireable, etc. It's that "cream of the crop" within the gender that I mean.


And how is that determined? And why?


thanks

You read my mind. What makes the "Doctor" or "Lawyer" the so called cream of the crop? I've dated a few of those and I know they aren't all that.

Anyway I thought the original issue was black women being bashed for wanting anything "too fancy" as opposed to the bucktoothed janitor. I think it went something like

quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
a Black woman is immediately scolded (as we see from the posts immediately following qty's post) for wanting anything "too fancy." She must be open to the buck-toothed, hump-backed janitor...


So are you saying that the "fancy" choices are confined to "pretty boys", "Lawyers", and "Doctors" and that all that's left over are "buck-toothed, hump-backed janitors"? There's nothing else?

Baby, I was the cream of the crop even when I was a young ambitious janitor Razz
FrenchyFrenchyA1
Oh Lord, here we go again. I thought this was cleared up already.

quote:
What makes the "Doctor" or "Lawyer" the so called cream of the crop?


The same combination of factors that make "girls with a phat ass" the cream of the crop for men. AGAIN, this is not about these particular individual men or women and their merits. It is about the right for both genders to strive for "The (Percieved) Best."

And I NEVER said there was only the cream of the crop and everyone else was shit. In fact, I went out of my way to repeatedly point that out even though it was irrelevant to my point.
ronin10ronin10A2
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:


A quick example: While in High school, the program "Martin" had just began its first season, and somehow, our class got on the topic of the female characters ("Gina" and "Pam") being played by actresses Tisha Campbell and Tashina Arnold. One of the boys in the class raved about how "ugly" he thought the character Pam was compared to Gina. My geomtry teacher, a African-American woman, who sported a natural, told him that if you saw Pam walking down the halls of this high school, every dude in here would be after her. She said the problem is the entertainment industry inflates the viewers standards of what is beautiful.


Pam is hotter than Gina.
HueyHueyA1
quote:
Originally posted by ronin10:
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:


A quick example: While in High school, the program "Martin" had just began its first season, and somehow, our class got on the topic of the female characters ("Gina" and "Pam") being played by actresses Tisha Campbell and Tashina Arnold. One of the boys in the class raved about how "ugly" he thought the character Pam was compared to Gina. My geomtry teacher, a African-American woman, who sported a natural, told him that if you saw Pam walking down the halls of this high school, every dude in here would be after her. She said the problem is the entertainment industry inflates the viewers standards of what is beautiful.


Pam is hotter than Gina.


I agree with you that Pam is hotter than Gina...at least physically hotter. The problem is that Pam is dark-skinned (not that it's anything wrong with it), Gina is lighter-skinned, and that when you usually have TWO good-looking black women together (of different complexions), they have to be competitive to a point.

Also, the darker-skinned character Pam is unfortunately casted as a "sapphire", a shrewish selfish, inconsiderate black female character.

Besides, knowing about the skin color caste system in the black community, the sapphire gets no sympathy. Thus, in a way, Pam's personality makes her "ugly."
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bigddoublebigddoubleA1
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
..."what makes you think you deserve to date one of those guys" and blahblahblah.


Nobody has said that - that's what you keep projecting into this discussion. Along with insisting that men only define their ideal mates by the physical. nono Your choice of words ("cream of the crop") is also telling. But I guess I'm being sexist or just shelling out more dating advice, right? I (and the other guys) couldn't possibly have valid points - we're too busy being sexist, right? lol

Though you make it very, very hard...

Still with heart
FrenchyFrenchyA1
What on Earth are you talking about? I am not only talking about what happens in this thread and on this board!! (Though, if you want to get technical, that "what makes you think you deserve that kind of man?" has DEFINTELY been trotted out on this board before.)

Please go back and read my first post in this thread. You're picking up and running with all of these side details and repeatedly skipping right over the main point. I don't give a shit what makes a particular woman the "cream of the crop" to a man. I'm only saying that there is such a thing as the "cream of the crop" and that is what I am referring to when I talk about each gender being allowed to pursue "the best" freely without being admonished to settle for something less. If it's not "the girl with the big ass" but something else instead, FINE. Who cares?!?! That's not the POINT. How many different times and ways do I have to say that?!?

Lord! You guys are making me pull my hair out! hit spank bang

Smile
qty226qty226A1
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
You guys are all completely missing the point of qty's post (and all the others posts like hers that have come before). Do none of you see the disparity between the two standards she pointed out? It doesn't strike any of you as ODD that it is fine and even considered "rational" for a Black man to want the best looking woman available ("Who wouldn't choose a video girl over a 200 lb woman?" was the gist of the quote, I believe), but a Black woman is immediately scolded (as we see from the posts immediately following qty's post) for wanting anything "too fancy." She must be open to the buck-toothed, hump-backed janitor, but it's "just common sense" for the Black man to only want the Halle Berry and Beyonce look-a-likes. All of that was lost on you all?

The point is NOT that "janitors aint shit" or however else things were apparently interpreted. It's the double standard.



tfro

I think a lot of men, dont understand this.........because they simply dont want to.

Its really not that hard to understand!
AudioGuyAudioGuyA1
*I know I'm gonna "catch it" for this, but...*

I think that by virtue of the fact that there more women than there are men, limits the choices of women severely... If a woman is then "holding out" for a "Denzel the doctor" does that really make sense??

I also think, based upon my observation - however limited it may be, that a man will date/marry a woman regardless of her station in life... she could be working on the fryer at Mickey D's, but if she's cute she has almost as good a shot at getting a mate as a sister with a phd.

Let a brother say "I'm in charge of the fries at Mickey D's" and see how far he gets - regardless of his looks!!

So I say date who you want, but realize the limitations of your situations. (just call me JESSE lol )
HonestBrotherHonestBrotherA1
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
I'm only saying that there is such a thing as the "cream of the crop" and that is what I am referring to when I talk about each gender being allowed to pursue "the best" freely without being admonished to settle for something less.


You keep waffling here. Are you saying that you want to be able to fantasize about getting these men or are you honest to goodness really wanting the right to hold out for the status-symbol-trophy-husband? Fantasies are free.

And you have the right do hold out for whatever you want anyway. If that's what you're about then you just have to ignore what people say. But if what you're really saying is that this what to shoot for then I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for what I'm about to say. But the women who pine after these status-symbol-trophy-husbands-Lamborghini men (Denzel, Doctor, Lawyer types) then complain that "there are no men" when they can't find one DESERVE to be single.

I get sick of women who make like the only choices are between a doctor and a fast food worker. There are many professional men. Many men who go to college. Who are going somewhere. And who are single because they ain't no damn 6 figure earning Doctor. It's either you're earning 6 figures or you a broke nigger. It's unrealistic. Not only that but it shoves us men into rigid stereotypes and is an insult to anybody who is a STRIVER but doesn't pursue a mere handful of career paths. What about your black artists? Sculptors? Writers? Painters? Engineers? Accountants? Scholars? Dentists? Community Activists? We have some of those you know? These aren't cream of the crop? And they're deserving men.

Its unrealistic even if you were a white woman to hold out for a Doctor. It's even more unrealistic for black women given the numbers. I know I'll get hate. But dammit its true.

And you can complain about a double standard all you want but I don't hear the guys belly aching about there not being any women ... There are a ton of women. They just have awful attitudes.

Now let the hatin' begin....
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SweetwuzzySweetwuzzyA1
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
I'm only saying that there is such a thing as the "cream of the crop" and that is what I am referring to when I talk about each gender being allowed to pursue "the best" freely without being admonished to settle for something less.


You keep waffling here. Are you saying that you want to be able to fantasize about getting these men or are you honest to goodness really wanting the right to hold out for the status-symbol-trophy-husband? Fantasies are free.

And you have the right do hold out for whatever you want anyway. If that's what you're about then you just have to ignore what people say. But if what you're really saying is that this what to shoot for then I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for what I'm about to say. But the women who pine after these status-symbol-trophy-husbands-Lamborghini men (Denzel, Doctor, Lawyer types) then complain that "there are no men" when they can't find one DESERVE to be single.

I get sick of women who make like the only choices are between a doctor and a fast food worker. There are many professional men. Many men who go to college. Who are going somewhere. And who are single because they ain't no damn 6 figure earning Doctor. It's either you're earning 6 figures or you a broke nigger. It's unrealistic. Not only that but it shoves us men into rigid stereotypes and is an insult to anybody who is a STRIVER but doesn't pursue a mere handful of career paths. What about your black artists? Sculptors? Writers? Painters? Engineers? Accountants? Scholars? Dentists? Community Activists? We have some of those you know? These aren't cream of the crop? And they're deserving men.

Its unrealistic even if you were a white woman to hold out for a Doctor. It's even more unrealistic for black women given the numbers. I know I'll get hate. But dammit its true.

And you can complain about a double standard all you want but I don't hear the guys belly aching about there not being any women ... There are a ton of women. They just have awful attitudes.

Now let the hatin' begin....


I still think you are missing the point.
I believe Frenchy is complaining that women get dogged for wanting a particular guy(whether it be "the cream of the crop" or not) while guys are not dogged for wanting a particular women(whether it be the "cream of the crop" or not)
SweetwuzzySweetwuzzyA1
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
I'm only saying that there is such a thing as the "cream of the crop" and that is what I am referring to when I talk about each gender being allowed to pursue "the best" freely without being admonished to settle for something less.


You keep waffling here. Are you saying that you want to be able to fantasize about getting these men or are you honest to goodness really wanting the right to hold out for the status-symbol-trophy-husband? Fantasies are free.

And you have the right do hold out for whatever you want anyway. If that's what you're about then you just have to ignore what people say. But if what you're really saying is that this what to shoot for then I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for what I'm about to say. But the women who pine after these status-symbol-trophy-husbands-Lamborghini men (Denzel, Doctor, Lawyer types) then complain that "there are no men" when they can't find one DESERVE to be single.

I get sick of women who make like the only choices are between a doctor and a fast food worker. There are many professional men. Many men who go to college. Who are going somewhere. And who are single because they ain't no damn 6 figure earning Doctor. It's either you're earning 6 figures or you a broke nigger. It's unrealistic. Not only that but it shoves us men into rigid stereotypes and is an insult to anybody who is a STRIVER but doesn't pursue a mere handful of career paths. What about your black artists? Sculptors? Writers? Painters? Engineers? Accountants? Scholars? Dentists? Community Activists? We have some of those you know? These aren't cream of the crop? And they're deserving men.

Its unrealistic even if you were a white woman to hold out for a Doctor. It's even more unrealistic for black women given the numbers. I know I'll get hate. But dammit its true.

And you can complain about a double standard all you want but I don't hear the guys belly aching about there not being any women ... There are a ton of women. They just have awful attitudes.

Now let the hatin' begin....



I agree with you. Some women seem to put men into two categories. This is only going to lead to women being lonley due to excessively high standards.
HonestBrotherHonestBrotherA1
quote:
Originally posted by Sweetwuzzy:
I agree with you. Some women seem to put men into two categories. This is only going to lead to women being lonley due to excessively high standards.


I'm not even saying that women should "lower" their standards. Here's a list of people who probably do NOT earn 6 figures or a comparable salary

Albert Einstein
Add almost any college professor to this list -(even many at Ivy League Schools)
Most teachers/administrators in junior colleges
Teachers in elementary and secondary education
Most people in literature or the arts.
Etc. I could go on if a really tried but I have a life

But my point is not that women need to "lower" their vision. They need to broaden/expand their vision.

Denzel/Doctor/Lawyer is tunnel vision.

My guess is it's the continuation of a cultural habit that started because our access to the professions was limited. That's no longer as much the case. So this habit has become a bad habit that I believe is worsened with the influence of media.
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HonestBrotherHonestBrotherA1
Folks, I'm saying that I put myself second to no man. I'm not Denzel/Doctor/Laywer. And wanting me is NOT lowering your standards.
laugh laugh
I should add that I do have the right to use the title Dr. But I'm not an MD.

I'm also saying that even when I was a 20 year old janitor, I was still the cream of the crop.

<----------- Man with a healthy ego
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bigddoublebigddoubleA1
Honest & AG -

The three of us have said the same thing to the ladies. No one is denying fantasy. But the reality is that everyone can't be a high social status, high income, buff, male idol. Please substitute the female analogues for those of you that still haven't realized I'm speaking about men & women. This means, somebody has to date & marry the "every Jane/Joes". Men have an easier time, IMO, accepting this fact.

I'm glad my mom wasn't such an elitest. Otherwise, I might not be here! Big Grin Maybe I'm an exception, but my non-Denzel, non high-status dad did a HELL of a job as a father (and my Mom's pretty happy too!).

Hopefully, the ladies will actually read what you guys said.

From one brother to another-

appl tfro appl
HueyHueyA1
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
offPlease, can a woman be a librarian, a "brainiac" and be hot AT THE SAME TIME?!!



Are you saying.......that you've never seen this before?


Yes, I've seen this. The thing is that usually those women don't stay single forever. If any man, that has any common sense and intelligence meets her, he better get a ring and take her to the nearest preacher. Well, that's what I'm gonna do if I see her.

But society sometimes tells us that the prettier a beautiful woman, the more sordid her personality is (e.g. Toni Childs from "Girlfriends".)

Many men, as much as we like to look at and pursue pretty women, are intimidated by them, because they think somebody that hot MUST be dating somebody. And if I find her, I'll be jumping for joy and doing more backflips than Dominique Dawes and Mary Lou Retton combined.
FrenchyFrenchyA1
quote:
Originally posted by AudioGuy:
*I know I'm gonna "catch it" for this, but...*

I think that by virtue of the fact that there more women than there are men, limits the choices of women severely... If a woman is then "holding out" for a "Denzel the doctor" does that really make sense??


This is NOT the point, AG. No one is encouraging women to date only a Denzel. No one is saying Denzels are the only quality men. No one is saying that we want the right to hold out for a Denzel. WOMEN SHOULD HAVE THE OPTION OF STRIVING FOR A "DENZEL" WITHOUT HEARING A BUNCH OF FRIGGIN LIP ABOUT HOW WE NEED TO REFOCUS/REVISE/RETHINK BECAUSE WE DON'T DESERVE IT OR BECAUSE WE'RE NOT GIVING THE "LOWER-RUNG" OF BROTHAS A CHANCE OR WHATEVER OTHER REASON. The same way that men can strive for the prettiest available woman (or whatever it is that ddouble goes for since he takes offense to the idea that men put looks first). Let us want whatever the Hell it is we want! Sure, we may end up with something else when all is said and done, but this rush by Black men to immediately shoot down any of the Black woman's romantic/relationship aspirations is ridiculously overdone! Please phrase that in a way your brothers will understand because they are not trying to hear it coming from me.

quote:
I also think, based upon my observation - however limited it may be, that a man will date/marry a woman regardless of her station in life... she could be working on the fryer at Mickey D's, but if she's cute she has almost as good a shot at getting a mate as a sister with a phd.


Funny that ddouble would give your quote applause when he thinks this idea is off the mark.

quote:
Let a brother say "I'm in charge of the fries at Mickey D's" and see how far he gets - regardless of his looks!!


Why should we reduce ourselves down to taking up with whoever is cute?? We expect more because we're smarter. And because we have more responsibilities. Smile

quote:
So I say date who you want, but realize the limitations of your situations. (just call me JESSE lol )


Why do men feel compelled to even contribute this? Do you think there is a Black woman alive who does not "realize the limitations" of her situation? Because we talk about the limitations of our situation on quite a regular basis. Even when people swear blind that there are no limitations to our damn situation and it's all a myth, but that's another thread. Argh!
FrenchyFrenchyA1
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
You keep waffling here.


I'm not waffling. I've been saying the same thing repeatedly. You are just not trying to read what is written.

quote:
Are you saying that you want to be able to fantasize about getting these men or are you honest to goodness really wanting the right to hold out for the status-symbol-trophy-husband?


Neither. *Sigh* Black women deserve to be able to consider the "cream of the crop" as a viable dating and marriage option without being lectured about lowering standards/"being more realistic"/etc.

I've broken it down into scenarios before, but apparently no one reads them or you can't see past the word "Denzel" without going off on a tangent. Last time.

Scenario A
Man: I want to date a woman who's pretty and has a six-figure job.
Society: Go head!

Scenario B
Woman: I want to date a man who's handsome and has a six-figure job.
Society: You're expecting too damn much! What's wrong with dating a janitor or a brotha who isn't cute? That's why you all can't find anybody!

Do you see the difference?? Do you see why that would bother a woman??

quote:
But the women who pine after these status-symbol-trophy-husbands-Lamborghini men (Denzel, Doctor, Lawyer types) then complain that "there are no men" when they can't find one DESERVE to be single.


Do you see how remarks like this fit exactly into the scenario above??

quote:
I get sick of women who make like the only choices are between a doctor and a fast food worker.


Totally irrelevant and for the umpteenth time, NO ONE has suggested that and I've actually specifically addressed that several times now. So put down your violin and cut the sob story.

quote:
And you can complain about a double standard all you want but I don't hear the guys belly aching about there not being any women ... There are a ton of women. They just have awful attitudes.


You don't here men complaining (actually you do, but whatever) about numbers because the numbers are on their side. There are more avialble Black women than there are available Black men. What in the Hell would you have to complain about numbers-wise?!? I'm not even gonna touch that last part.
HonestBrotherHonestBrotherA1
Numbers don't mean a thing to me when I'm single as hell... as evidenced by the fact that I'm here typing this rather than doing something else. Numbers mean nada.

quote:

Scenario A
Man: I want to date a woman who's pretty and has a six-figure job.
Society: Go head!


Whatever...I've never heard this coming from anywhere... I don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.

quote:

But the women who pine after these status-symbol-trophy-husbands-Lamborghini men (Denzel, Doctor, Lawyer types) then complain that "there are no men" when they can't find one DESERVE to be single.


And stand by this statement. Because if you actually read what I wrote NO it doesn't fit the scenario you gave.
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