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http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/02/Floridian/Black_women_speak_out.shtml

Black women speak out

Earlier this week, African-American men answered women's question "Do Black Men Still Want Us?' Now women discuss their romantic options and struggles.

By RODNEY THRASH
Published October 2, 2004
Where is the love?
A magazine asks whether black men still desire black women. Eight men offer their answers.
Letters to the Editor: More responses to "Do Black Men Still Want Us?"
Spirited comments about romantic options and worries


When elementary school teacher Patti Hairston picked up Monday's edition of the St. Petersburg Times, she braced herself.

"I knew there would be negative things said about black women by black men," she said.

I'd written a story in which eight black men responded to this question posed by Essence, a black women's magazine: Do Black Men Still Want Us? I didn't want to write a meaty thesis with tons of data and expert analysis. I wanted to speak to real people, not experts. And I wanted to engage black men who were unafraid to speak openly and candidly about black women. Their voices often have been either muffled or absent from this discussion..

I knew their comments would resonate with some, offend many and embarrass others. But more than anything, I wanted the story to spark a dialogue. Statistics show that the black family is in crisis, black women are more likely to live alone than white women are, and we're far more likely to see a black man in a jail cell than in a college lecture hall. Black men and women need to talk about why things are the way they are and how they can be fixed.

The story has forced people to do just that. Days after the story was published, my e-mail inbox and telephone voicemail are clogged with messages from women and men living in small towns in North Carolina and big cities such as Chicago. Still more people e-mailed the story to their girlfriends and social and professional organizations. Here's what some had to say, in their words.
Lori Chung, 28, associate TV news producer, single, Brooklyn

Personally, I don't feel the love from black men to black women and doubt much of that "love" still exists. And I don't buy the argument that white or nonblack women are "easier" or "less challenging" than black women. I have friends of all shades, so I know that to be false. This appears to be an excuse that men use to appease us and themselves and to avoid the realization that they simply feel that nonblack women are somehow better than sistas. They want the envy of their friends, their kids to have "nice" hair and to feel a sense of accomplishment and success through their mate.

I believe the nature of our problem as black women is that we have a strong sense of loyalty (and I would argue misplaced) to black men. I can't tell you how many times I've heard sistas say that "it's either a black man or no one at all," and they're often stuck with the latter. Just as brothers have realized that they have options, we also need to be open to our options. We have more choices than settling for someone not good enough, sharing a man, or being alone. I've realized that there ARE plenty of good men out there, but they may not look like you or share the same ethnic background. Once you open up yourself to love from any direction, you won't feel a man shortage.
Kim Jordan, 38, insurance claims representative, single, St. Petersburg

The gentleman . . . talked about dating a (Polish and Italian) chiropractor. She supported him during a rough time. Black women are probably some of the most supportive women around, but I think it's still not enough coming from a black woman. I think if you've got a black woman and a white woman and they're doing the exact same thing, (black men are) going to look at what the white woman offers as something better than what the black woman offers. It can be the same kind of support. I think it's more about something different. It's something black men were told they couldn't do. I think it's more about that than what the white woman has to offer.

The relationship I just got out of, prior to dating me he'd been in a relationship for three years with a white woman. About a month into our relationship, he (said he) was scared of getting hurt (again). He was able to fight in this three-year relationship with this white woman. That's almost a slap in the face to a black woman. This (white) woman treated you like a crap and you stayed in the relationship for three years, but here all you can do is keep running scared. I don't understand. There are a lot of supportive black women, but it seems that we still lose out. It still is not good enough.
Talice Sanford, 35, eligibility administrator at Ceridian Benefit Services, single, St. Petersburg

Though I agree with some of the points made in this article, I think we have missed one other crucial point. Physical appearance. These days, it seems that appearance matters more than whether this woman is educated or employed. If you put an educated 200-pound woman (with) no children and taking care of her own next to a 125-pound woman with four kids and no job, who do you think he is attracted to?

The fact is most black men these days are looking for the typical "Video Girl." Whether she be black, white or any other race, most men look for the images portrayed on television.

If a black man is having a hard time finding a real black woman, a woman of substance, maybe he should broaden his scope a little. I'm in no way suggesting that he lower his standards. I'm actually asking a question: If you had a choice between a "gift" that is wrapped in the most beautiful paper you've ever seen and one that was cute but not so neatly wrapped, which one would you choose? You would be surprised at what each package contains. We keep passing the buck. Brothers blame the sisters and sisters blame the brothers. We all need to take a long look at ourselves before we start pointing fingers. Both sexes need to realize that who we choose as a partner says a lot about who we are. And if we are looking for a life partner, we really need to scrutinize our reason for choosing that person.

I must say something to my sisters. We complain constantly about the way we are treated. But the fact is, there are some of us who allow it. When a black man meets a strong black woman, part of the reason he doesn't stay around is because he knows that there is a "simpleton" out there who won't demand to be treated with respect. As long as we continue to allow ourselves to be mistreated, it will continue.
Sylvia Hopson

I am a professional black woman who has been having problems with African-American men. Just through my personal relationship explorations, speaking with black male friends and reading the current literature on this topic, black relationships are definitely in turmoil.

I have been told that because I am intelligent, ambitious, attractive and somewhat enlightened, I am undesirable to a lot of African-American men. To echo what one of the gentlemen said in the article, I was told that I was not submissive enough for a lot of black men.

Initially that stings. It stings (not only) because I know that I am loving and kind, but because I have all of these other attributes it makes me fundamentally unwanted by a lot of men. It saddens me more because it seems as if the vast majority of black men want a "submissive" woman. What does that say about the state of black "manhood" today? I think that is a sad reflection of the kind of trouble we are in as a race.

Further, let's say I did change myself to become more demure, submissive and feminine so that I am actually desirable to many black men and, as a result, I do find a committed relationship. One has to think, "What kind of man am I committed to?" Am I committed to an honorable, secure, self-assured and decent human or did I just commit myself to a scared little boy who has to be constantly pampered and coddled and who never returns that nurturing? Black women need to be nurtured, too. We just can't give to a selfish and self-centered human being all the time before we ourselves fall out from exhaustion.
Joanna Banks-Shackleford

I'm a 43-year-old divorced black woman. I've been divorced for nine years now. I am intelligent, attractive, well-traveled and spiritual. Yet I find myself having to go beyond dating African-American men for companionship. I think the issues that black women are facing that were not mentioned in your article are those dealing with trust, respect and commitment.

You made a good point that black women pretend to be strong and independent when we don't really want to be. But in order for us to relinquish that stance or let down our guard to reveal the soft, submissive side that is willing to recognize our king as king, we have to be able to trust: trust that he is willing and ready to cherish his queen. Do you feel that since there are so many women out there looking for love, why should you give in so easily? What you fail to realize is that this perception of settling too soon is in fact limiting your possibilities because the good ones that are intuitive enough to sense that you're not giving your all, and that you're burning the coals in many different fires, will never open to you completely to reveal their true worth. A vicious cycle. Nobody wins. I'm still hopeful that one day, my Mr. Right will come along. He'll see me, appreciate me, cherish me and get in return a very deep and lasting love that he thought possible only in a book or a dream.
Patti Hairston, 44, elementary school teacher, divorced, Gulfport

I desire a black man who wants to be the head and not the tail. I will never give up on black men. I have never considered dating outside of my race, even though I do have black female friends who say they have given up black men because of the way they have been treated. I often wonder if black men who date outside of their race will ever be honest enough to admit that they sometimes treat nonblack women better than they treat black women; some black men seem to hate us just because we're black. I don't understand that mentality when, in fact, it was a black woman who gave birth to them. I wonder if they ever consider the fact that most black men left the black woman and child, leaving the woman to play the role of mama and daddy (which would make a woman of any color strong). I see my brothers on a daily basis taking so much pride in spending time with their mixed kids in the mall, in the park or just taking their kids shopping, and I often I wonder if this brother has any black kids who would love that same kind of attention or, better yet, just would love to be able to be in the presence of their daddy. When I see a brother with a nonblack woman he seems to be so proud to have her on his arm; I always pray that he's with her because he loves her, not because she's not black. For the black men who date white women exclusively, I realize there is a self-hatred going on. To all of the brothers who still desire black women, may God bless you for not giving up on us, because there are a lot of us like myself who will never give up on you.

Ain't nothing like a brotha.
* * *

While most of the responses were from black women, a few black men also responded. Theloneous Massai, 46, was one of them.

Massai, married for 20 years to a black woman, said the article was embarrassing.

"Black women just want black "males' to stand up and be men, to accept the challenge of manhood," he wrote. "Most guys aren't willing to pay the cost to be the boss. If you can't pay the rent/house note, car note, utilities, groceries, etc., then keep your pants zipped up until you can.

"Black men who don't step up to the plate are missing out on the best women in the world."

- Rodney Thrash can be reached at 813 269-5313 or rthrash@sptimes.com
[Last modified October 1, 2004, 08:55:12]
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EVEN MORE!!

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/02/Floridian/More_responses_to__Do.shtml

More responses to "Do Black Men Still Want Us?"

Spirited comments about romantic options and worries

Letters to the Editor
Published October 2, 2004
Where is the love?
A magazine asks whether black men still desire black women. Eight men offer their answers.
Black women speak out
Earlier this week, African-American men answered women's question "Do Black Men Still Want Us?' Now women discuss their romantic options and struggles.


Andre King

Great article on the status of black man/woman relationships. I don't think that that is the end of the black man's opinion on this, however. Even though there were a variety of opinions on the subject, most of them seemed little more than simple preferences. And that is what I think all of this boils down to. If I were to date a woman of another race, I would date her because I wanted to, and not make excuses such as "there are no good black women" or "black women dating white men has forced me to date outside the race." I think women of all races should be held to this same standard, because it's not just black women that do this. Black women can find good black men, it's all about whether they want to.

The second thing I have a problem with is this notion of black women being touted as studious, god-fearing saints and black men labeled as cheating, homosexual bums. Anyone who has lived on this Earth long enough (or learned something in that time) knows that saints and sinners exist in every race and gender.

I think the biggest underlying issue at hand here is instead of blaming others for your relationship rut, you need to look inside yourself and figure out why you attract the type of people you do. Another thing to consider is whether you are emotionally stable enough to engage in a new relatioship without punishing the one you're with because of what someone else did in the past. If you never come to terms with this stuff, you will always blame everyone else as to why you are not happy, and you will always have a handy excuse be it AIDS, "down-low", attitude or laziness, to project on the opposite sex of your own race.

By the way, I am a black man who has had many relationsips with black women, both good and bad, but I refuse to use the past as an excuse to do something that I wanted to do anyway.
Donna Light

I am a black woman that married a white man. For me, it was not about color. I didn't set out saying, "I think I'll marry a white man." For me, it had to do with interests. Yes, education did play a part in it as well, but I would say that it was more intelligence. My husband did not go to college, he went to the military, but he is very intelligent. We also have the same interests in theater and music. I have often been asked why I made this decision, and black people have often looked upon me as a traitor, but one thing I can say is that I am happy!
Angela Turner

The Down Low Phenomenon

The fact that this has now surfaced as a topic of conversation does not change the fact that it has always been the case since war-times when men were in such closed quarters for an extended period of time. All you have to do is look at the disproportionate number of black women with AIDS and it is clear that many of them contracted this from a infected black man that she thought was straight. This is not a slap in the face of black women, but moreso is another signal that more and more black men desire not to make a commitment and simply want sex however they can get it. Now the men must realize that they are not only endangering their own lives but also those of the women they truly love. A few minutes can't possibly be more desireable than a lifetime of fatal pain.

WANT vs NEED of a man

Black women have progressed significantly over the last 25 years through obtaining a better education, being career-focused and taking to heart the song "God Bless the Child That's Got His Own." We are not in NEED of a man for the basics of life, but we do still WANT a man. And most of us prefer a black man to create and complete our family. It is sad that so many women are now choosing to go it alone by having a child without a husband. What most of us still want is a man to admire our inner as well as external beauty; we want a man to share special moments with; we want a man to desire us and appreciate what we have to offer to the relationship. We WANT a man to call our own!!!

Available Black Men

The question about whether there are any available black men is a ridiculous one, seeing whereas the population of African-Americans continues to grow rapidly. Yes, they are available, and it isn't about whether or not we are willing to "settle" for one. It truly is a matter of compatiblity. We have to simply spend more time communicating with one another and realize that perfection doesn't exist but finding compatibility through sharing can lead us back to each other.

Men as the King of the Castle

Every adult man deserves to feel and be treated as the King of the Castle in his home. The key to this is that it is HIS home, not HERS or his mama's. In the same vein, however, he must realize that his significant other deserves to be the Queen of that same castle (and) treated with respect, dignity and honor. It is possible, because each of us came from a mother and we treat her as a black woman with that level of loving.

An Educated Woman

A. L. Reynolds seemed to insinuate that by educating our black women we somehow created the strained relations between them and black men. How ludicrous is that!! Due to our education, we are in a position to be helpful and beneficial to our family. It isn't a mere racial thing that only black men are intimidaed by black women. ALL men are intimidated by "strong" black women. Not because these women are arrogant or overbearing, but because they hold their ground and don't back off. A black woman has gone through so much over history, and instinctively has had to be strong. That strength has come through getting an education, raising children, taking care of the home and holding the family together (sometimes even an extended family). Basically all she wants in return is an appreciation for what she does. And guess what, fellows? It will probably result in her giving even MORE of herself to you and her family. So wise up, black men. Never will you find a more caring, loving and supportive woman than one that resembles your own mother. Value us, and we will share the wealth of our essence with you for a lifetime!!!
E.M. Johnson

I just wanted to add my commentary as a black man to this intriguingarticle.

First and foremost, black women have a problem with a dominant alpha male.Add intelligence, wit, eloquence and charm, and they tend to run for thehills. If the black male is moderately successful, then they don't seem tohave the commonalities needed to mesh as one family unit, normally becausethey took two different paths to get to their level of success.

Another issue facing black women is that they tend to be condescendingbecause they feel they have to settle for someone not own their own level.I recall when I was going to college, the black women didn't give me thetime of day because I didn't have enough gold around my neck, or didn'tdrive a nice car (or a car better then what they drove).

Black women don't tend to recognize the powers have subtly divided the menfrom their women. Black males make up 6.2 percent of the U.S. population, but yetmake up over 58 percent of the prisons. One has to wonder: Do that many blackmen have a criminal mentality? I think not. If one gender is given moreopportunities to succeed than the other, then the male is going to want toprovide for his family in some form of fashion. Though I don't excuse thecriminal behavior, I certainly understand where it stems from.

If black women would work together with the black man, whether he is ajanitor, custodian or manager in a fast food establishment, I believe theywill see they have more choices then they realize. Belittling someone's jobor career choices will never attract someone to you or keep them with you.There is a vast difference between encouragement and denouncement. Noteveryone has a self-ameliorated personality, and black women tend not torecognize this difference.

Finally, if a black man has found material success, it doesn't automaticallymeans he has a white woman on his arm, and this translates into him wantinga more submissive woman. This harkens back to the commonalities that twopeople must share to work through a relationship. It has been this writer'spersonal experience that caucasian women tend to support with empathy thanwith caustic humiliation as a black man progresses up the corporate ladder.For most, that empathy speaks volumes and is not indicative of being submissiveas was indicated by some. However, one great advantage that black womenhave that nonblacks do not have is the fact of their common ancestry. Nomatter how much a nonblack woman may love a black man, she will neverunderstand the racial discrimination he faces on a daily basis, and that iswhy a strong black woman is desired and should be appreciated by all blackmen as well as men of other ethnic backgrounds.
Stephanie R. Sprow

I'm a 22-year-old black female studying government administration at a graduate school at an Ivy League university. Here is my take on the whole black man/black woman thing. There are simply less of them than there are of us, and they know it! The ratio of black men to women on college campuses across the country is nearing 1 to 10. Black men can basically have their pick of women without making many commitments. Black women have few choices; many of the white guys have never met educated black women who do not fit the media's stereotypes, and many of the black men take advantage of their first opportunity to "sow their oats." They have a plethora to choose from, and choose they do. The white girls like the idea of dating a black man and black men find white women very accessible (as they do women of all races really). Even if they have no serious intentions about being with their white classmates, they "dabble" in them to see what it is like and to get the experience of the "American Dream." I have no doubt that most of the black men I know in college will eventually end up with black women, but in the meantime, they don't have to. The competition is among black women; imagine running a race against everyone around you, and it seems like most of the competition is newer, faster and stronger.

The difficult thing for me, and I think most of my black female friends can agree, is trying to figure out what we should do in the meantime. There really are fewer eligible men out there than there are eligible women. So often, black women must carry the weight of the world on their shoulders. We battle sexism, racism, and all sorts of stereotyping every single day. It's nice to come home to the open arms of a strong person who loves you and can support you and make you feel good about your place in this world. It's nice to have someone who understands you and your struggles. No, we are not submissive as one of the contributors writes in the article. Why should we be? There is no time to be submissive in a world that labels us as gold diggers and welfare moms. We have to be strong and independent to survive, but then that's not appreciated either. We've got "attitudes," and as one white friend recently told me, too much "sassiness."

I think black men have gotten a bad rap lately, but I think some of them have just sunken to the level that the world expects of them. I refuse to settle for less than I deserve, and I know that there is a black man out there for me. The only difficult thing is most of us women (across all racial lines) are eyeing that same man. Thus, the competition begins again, and frankly the odds are not in our favor. Forgive us for having little faith. But more importantly, prove us wrong.
Shelia Atkinson

I feel very sad for black men. So many of them arelost. It takes a main girlfriend or wife and two womenon the side to make them feel complete. I attributeit to low self-esteem. I have been approached by menwhen their women (black women and white women) walk tothe other room. Or, they are shoving their ring finger in their pocket(clearly trying to hide it) while hitting on me.

I am so sick of the "strong black woman" issue. Ifyou throw a person in the middle of the ocean, theysink or swim. We don't have a choice.

As far as the trend of black men dating nonblackwomen, that is more of a black female issue. They needto open the door to a good man. If they choose to beracist and not look for a good man regardless of color,that is their problem.

However, this man sharing needs to stop cause blackwomen are getting HIV at record numbers.
Denise Lamar

I think relations between black men and black women have gotten worse over the years. When I was a little girl, I used to always see black couples together. Now they are few and far between. They say we don't want them. We do. But we are tired of putting up with foolishness in everything from the initial approach to courting. A lot of black men claim they love black women but don't back up their actions. Most of the so-called love I've seen has been a lot of infantile degradation and emphasis on our posterior backsides. We are more than a big butt. Finding someone equal to our economic status is hard. Most of the black men I've met in Chicago have not stepped foot inside a college and work in low income jobs. We have no choice but to give up on black men.
Nicole Nixon

I just finished reading your article. I have to tell you that I have made the same comments recently that Michael Baisden made in the article. I am a very strong woman that has had trouble finding the right person. I laughed a little to myself when I read those words because when I said them I instantly thought to myself that not many women would openly admit that they don't want to be the powerful forces that they are. The truth is that the rewards of a strong family foundation are not out front and in the face of black men and nonblack men for that matter. Everywhere you look, read or hear, commercials or print ads about condoms and sexual enhancement herbs or prescriptions. Sex is everywhere. Instant gratification has become the order of the day. The concepts of sacrifice and hard work or smart work for that matter have been lost in a society where we finance our lifestyle instead of living within our means. I could go on, but I will stop there.
Wendy Martin

Do black women still desire black men? I would say yes. In my own opinion, I still desire black men but not black American men. I mean for so long black women have not been given the credit as being the strong black woman who can and will stand behind her man. A black American man wants to be the head of the household but he does not want to take some of the responsibilities that come with running the house. When it comes down to financial situations, the American black man does not want to step up to the plate. Therefore, the black woman feels as though she's in charge of everything and that's what makes her so strong. She has managed before she met you and she can manage without you. I'm exploring different cultures Black American men run to the other side because of the strength that a black woman has. A black woman has no problem with stepping back and letting the black man take over provided he can provide.
Adam Shelton

I am 24-year-old college graduate from Oklahoma State University. I am currently living in Tampa. I was reading your article, "Whereis the love?" I believe that there areplenty of good black men and women left. It's just sohard to find someone who's worth a good relationship.Right now, I am a single man. I would love to date agood woman but I haven't run into one yet. I am notlooking for someone that is perfect in every way, butsomeone that interests me and grabs my attention in apositive and mature way. As far as race, it doesn'treally matter. I prefer a woman who is strong andwilling to be in a real relationship with me. Idon't want to be with any woman who is a bad influenceon me. I want someone who has a vision and can succeed with or without me. Ibelieve any race can provide those options. A good relationship is all about patience andsacrificing to get a level of true love. I am ready forthe step to happen.
Angela Judge

Sore spot for me is black men dating white women or Hispanic women or Asian women, not black women and exclusively not black women.

There are brothers who I guess have given up on black women and they'll take all of the goodness that's in them or that they could be and just give it away to any other body.

They (white women) don't challenge black men and they don't challenge black men in a lot of areas because they have generally grown up being afraid of black men. I don't care where they come from. They don't challenge black men and black men get to the point where they don't want to be challenged or they don't want to be pushed or they don't want to be held accountable or held responsible. I think white women assume too much responsibility in a lot of relationships from what I've seen.

When I see them (a black man and a nonblack woman) walk by I look. My first question is always, "Did he exclusively seek her?" I don't have a problem with interracial relationships. I have a problem when they are done to the exclusion of black women.

You look at brothers and say, "Why not me?" Especially if she's tacky-looking. If she is like superwoman-put-together-got-it-going-on, I'm like, "Go on, brother. More power to you." But if she is just common like me, well why not me? And that's when I start to question are you dating to the exclusion of black women.
Carolyn Lighty

A man has always been a very low priority for me. What was important to me was my education, initially, my career and then (to) build a business. I didn't have time for a man.

...A lot of African-American men will tell you initially, "I want a strong black woman." But you'll find out later that they are intimidated like some of the men said in your article. I've had men say to me things like, "I can't buy you. I can't do anything for you." At that time, once my business was open and thriving, three cars, two homes. I had all of this stuff, accumulated wealth. And men feel like they need to give you those kinds of things. That became a point of contention. It made them feel intimidated or less than. Deep down, they're wanting to be that breadwinner, that caretaker, that provider kind of person.

With me, I grew up in a home where my mother, very strong, aggressive personality, with my stepfather chose to be subservient and to kind of stifle her personality in order to have stability. And I grew up saying, "That's not what I wanted to do." When you're nurtured in an environment where you see that this person can be so much more, wants to be so much more, but they feel in order to be in this marriage and to make the marriage work, and I know other women today who are that same way, they will pretend to be less-than or they will elevate that man just so they can stay and keep the marriage going.

If you're really a strong black man, you should be able to deal with a strong black woman.
[Last modified October 1, 2004, 11:10:07]
My take on Part One:...in bold

When elementary school teacher Patti Hairston picked up Monday's edition of the St. Petersburg Times, she braced herself.

"I knew there would be negative things said about black women by black men," she said.
very interesting, esp. since the writer of the original article was merely seeking the 'other side' of the Essence article.

Lori Chung, 28, associate TV news producer, single, Brooklyn

Personally, I don't feel the love from black men to black women and doubt much of that "love" still exists. And I don't buy the argument that white or nonblack women are "easier" or "less challenging" than black women. I have friends of all shades, so I know that to be false. This appears to be an excuse that men use to appease us and themselves and to avoid the realization that they simply feel that nonblack women are somehow better than sistas. They want the envy of their friends, their kids to have "nice" hair and to feel a sense of accomplishment and success through their mate.
Kinda funny how she can enter the minds of Black men and report back on what's inside...maybe a little easier to say, in the tone of the famous Dave Chappelle show's segment, 'Ask a Black Dude'..what he is thinking


The gentleman . . . talked about dating a (Polish and Italian) chiropractor. She supported him during a rough time. Black women are probably some of the most supportive women around, but I think it's still not enough coming from a black woman. I think if you've got a black woman and a white woman and they're doing the exact same thing, (black men are) going to look at what the white woman offers as something better than what the black woman offers. It can be the same kind of support. I think it's more about something different. It's something black men were told they couldn't do. I think it's more about that than what the white woman has to offer.

The relationship I just got out of, prior to dating me he'd been in a relationship for three years with a white woman. About a month into our relationship, he (said he) was scared of getting hurt (again). He was able to fight in this three-year relationship with this white woman. That's almost a slap in the face to a black woman. This (white) woman treated you like a crap and you stayed in the relationship for three years, but here all you can do is keep running scared. I don't understand. There are a lot of supportive black women, but it seems that we still lose out. It still is not good enough.
Talice Sanford, 35, eligibility administrator at Ceridian Benefit Services, single, St. Petersburg

* She sure sounds bitter laugh


"If you put an educated 200-pound woman (with) no children and taking care of her own next to a 125-pound woman with four kids and no job, who do you think he is attracted to?

The fact is most black men these days are looking for the typical "Video Girl." Whether she be black, white or any other race, most men look for the images portrayed on television.

If a black man is having a hard time finding a real black woman, a woman of substance, maybe he should broaden his scope a little. I'm in no way suggesting that he lower his standards. I'm actually asking a question: If you had a choice between a "gift" that is wrapped in the most beautiful paper you've ever seen and one that was cute but not so neatly wrapped, which one would you choose? You would be surprised at what each package contains."
Sylvia Hopson

*sounds like she weighs over 2 bills and wants to get that denzel kinda lovin...why should denzel date down?? Confused



I have been told that because I am intelligent, ambitious, attractive and somewhat enlightened, I am undesirable to a lot of African-American men. To echo what one of the gentlemen said in the article, I was told that I was not submissive enough for a lot of black men.

* the Bible says that women should be submissive to their husband. Why not display some of those qualities while dating...no man wants to come home to an argument or a rolling neck

Initially that stings. It stings (not only) because I know that I am loving and kind, but because I have all of these other attributes it makes me fundamentally unwanted by a lot of men. It saddens me more because it seems as if the vast majority of black men want a "submissive" woman. What does that say about the state of black "manhood" today? I think that is a sad reflection of the kind of trouble we are in as a race.

the state of black maleness/manhood..I do not want drama..the end

Further, let's say I did change myself to become more demure, submissive and feminine Confused so that I am actually desirable to many black men and, as a result, I do find a committed relationship. One has to think, "What kind of man am I committed to?" Am I committed to an honorable, secure, self-assured and decent human or did I just commit myself to a scared little boy who has to be constantly pampered and coddled and who never returns that nurturing?
*great idea, i can't get what i want so I'll defile may love target with insults Smile...'how's that working out for ya??' - Dr. Phil



I'm a 43-year-old divorced black woman. I've been divorced for nine years now.
watch out...head for the hills ..LOL!!

Do you feel that since there are so many women out there looking for love, why should you give in so easily? What you fail to realize is that this perception of settling too soon is in fact limiting your possibilities because the good ones that are intuitive enough to sense that you're not giving your all, and that you're burning the coals in many different fires, will never open to you completely to reveal their true worth. A vicious cycle. Nobody wins. I'm still hopeful that one day, my Mr. Right will come along. He'll see me, appreciate me, cherish me and get in return a very deep and lasting love that he thought possible only in a book or a dream.
Patti Hairston, 44, elementary school teacher, divorced, Gulfport
GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!!!


I desire a black man who wants to be the head and not the tail. I will never give up on black men. I have never considered dating outside of my race, even though I do have black female friends who say they have given up black men because of the way they have been treated...in relationships that they CHOSE to be in/stay in...a volunteer victim

I often wonder if black men who date outside of their race will ever be honest enough to admit that they sometimes treat nonblack women better than they treat black women; some black men seem to hate us just because we're black. I don't understand that mentality when, in fact, it was a black woman who gave birth to them. I wonder if they ever consider the fact that most black men left the black woman and child, leaving the woman to play the role of mama and daddy (which would make a woman of any color strong). I see my brothers on a daily basis taking so much pride in spending time with their mixed kids in the mall, in the park or just taking their kids shopping, and I often I wonder if this brother has any black kids who would love that same kind of attention or, better yet, just would love to be able to be in the presence of their daddy. When I see a brother with a nonblack woman he seems to be so proud to have her on his arm; I always pray that he's with her because he loves her, not because she's not black. For the black men who date white women exclusively, I realize there is a self-hatred going on. To all of the brothers who still desire black women, may God bless you for not giving up on us, because there are a lot of us like myself who will never give up on you.

Ain't nothing like a brotha.

*I hope this lady gets some counseling for her bitterness.
My Take on part two..in bold

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/02/Floridian/More_responses_to__Do.shtml

Andre King

Great article on the status of black man/woman relationships. I don't think that that is the end of the black man's opinion on this, however. Even though there were a variety of opinions on the subject, most of them seemed little more than simple preferences. And that is what I think all of this boils down to. If I were to date a woman of another race, I would date her because I wanted to, and not make excuses such as "there are no good black women" or "black women dating white men has forced me to date outside the race." I think women of all races should be held to this same standard, because it's not just black women that do this. Black women can find good black men, it's all about whether they want to.

The second thing I have a problem with is this notion of black women being touted as studious, god-fearing saints and black men labeled as cheating, homosexual bums. Anyone who has lived on this Earth long enough (or learned something in that time) knows that saints and sinners exist in every race and gender.

I think the biggest underlying issue at hand here is instead of blaming others for your relationship rut, you need to look inside yourself and figure out why you attract the type of people you do. Another thing to consider is whether you are emotionally stable enough to engage in a new relatioship without punishing the one you're with because of what someone else did in the past. If you never come to terms with this stuff, you will always blame everyone else as to why you are not happy, and you will always have a handy excuse be it AIDS, "down-low", attitude or laziness, to project on the opposite sex of your own race.

By the way, I am a black man who has had many relationsips with black women, both good and bad, but I refuse to use the past as an excuse to do something that I wanted to do anyway.
*Great Points


Donna Light

I am a black woman that married a white man. For me, it was not about color. I didn't set out saying, "I think I'll marry a white man." For me, it had to do with interests. Yes, education did play a part in it as well, but I would say that it was more intelligence. My husband did not go to college, he went to the military, but he is very intelligent. We also have the same interests in theater and music. I have often been asked why I made this decision, and black people have often looked upon me as a traitor, but one thing I can say is that I am happy!

LOVE IS COLORLESS!!!

Angela Turner

The Down Low Phenomenon

The fact that this has now surfaced as a topic of conversation does not change the fact that it has always been the case since war-times when men were in such closed quarters for an extended period of time.
so gayness is linked to close quarters?? what about roommates in college? Are they going to be gay because the Resident Life office accidently put them under those conditions?? what about the military??

All you have to do is look at the disproportionate number of black women with AIDS and it is clear that many of them contracted this from a infected black man that she thought was straight.
what about the many black women that got AIDS from drug use? what about the many black women that share the same babydaddy?? what about the black women that prefer to date bad boy [in and out of jail drug dealers]?? Prisons have an HIV rate 8 to 10 higher than the genereal population.


This is not a slap in the face of black women, but moreso is another signal that more and more black men desire not to make a commitment and simply want sex however they can get it. what about the Census proven statistic that 92% of black men marry black women...if 'black men didn't want a commitment, why are so many black men marrying other races in higher numbers than ever before??]Now the men must realize that they are not only endangering their own lives but also those of the women they truly love. A few minutes can't possibly be more desireable than a lifetime of fatal pain. blame, blame, blame...i'm sure glad black women are not taking responiblity of their poor choices...if they did they'd probably be in a deep depression!!


WANT vs NEED of a man

Black women have progressed significantly over the last 25 years through obtaining a better education, being career-focused and taking to heart the song "God Bless the Child That's Got His Own." We are not in NEED of a man for the basics of life, but we do still WANT a man. And most of us prefer a black man to create and complete our family. It is sad that so many women are now choosing to go it alone by having a child without a husband. What most of us still want is a man to admire our inner as well as external beauty; we want a man to share special moments with; we want a man to desire us and appreciate what we have to offer to the relationship. We WANT a man to call our own!!!

***it's funny how some people think that because they have acheived a certain level of "success" that they "deserve" a relationship, totally ignoring that personality, chemistry and attraction has to play a factor in these things as well. SOME people have a tendency to acquire certain things to make up for what they are lacking in other areas (looks, personality, etc.). So then when they finally get all their medals and degrees and gold stars they develop a chip in their shoulder and try to approach people with a bad attitude

If you're really a strong black man, you should be able to deal with a strong black woman.

DEAL WITH?? DEAL WITH?? I thought that people have to 'DEAL WITH' problems in their lives...are black women a 'problem' now??
[Last modified October 1, 2004, 11:10:07][/QUOTE]
Who can read through all of that, all of those different responses from both men and women, and still say there is no widespread problem with the way Black men are treating Black women? That it's a myth? Roll Eyes

quote:
They say we don't want them. We do. But we are tired of putting up with foolishness in everything from the initial approach to courting. A lot of black men claim they love black women but don't back up their actions. Most of the so-called love I've seen has been a lot of infantile degradation and emphasis on our posterior backsides. We are more than a big butt...We have no choice but to give up on black men.
-Nicole Nixon

tfro appl bow Love it! Love it! Yes, Sister Nixon!This is really something that needs to be shouted through a bullhorn directly into the ears of every Black man every morning when he wakes, so he can fully remember it throughout his day. Move away from the constant degredation and juvenile, Euro-loving behavior.
I still believe the "few good mates" argument is overblown & overhyped. People because of their preferences and flaws (recognized & unrecognized), sabotage many of their relationships. People should have:

Realistic expectations
Honest self-assessment
Objectivity in assessing a relationship
Willingness to forgive (themselves & others)
Adaptability


Too many people have rigid views of themselves, others, and relationships. Who knows, that single mom or blue collar man may surprise you!
Name-calling? Darn. I especially agreed with this:
"Most of the so-called love I've seen has been a lot of infantile degradation..."

Ad nauseum. I recently had a black fellow, ask me could I find him a girlfriend. Ask me could I find HIM a girlfriend. I said my name was'nt 'Hitch'. Then, he goes on to say, "you sure got some big legs...I see those big legs everyday, and I say mmmmmmmm. Where yo man at, gurrl? Let me give you my phone number, and you tell ya girls about me. ya heah. I'm 53 years old, and I needs a woman. The woman I just broke up was to needy, to clingy. Tell ya girls about me" wth.

This on the train to work, in my suit, attache case. No, I was'nt doing the 'stuck-up' thing. Not at all, but can I just get a good morning and how are you today, and you sure look nice. Spoken to me, and not at me? And not that it matters (much) but we were the only two Black American folk on the train; and, the others were 'oyinbo'. lol! And he was loud.
quote:

Though I agree with some of the points made in this article, I think we have missed one other crucial point. Physical appearance. These days, it seems that appearance matters more than whether this woman is educated or employed. If you put an educated 200-pound woman (with) no children and taking care of her own next to a 125-pound woman with four kids and no job, who do you think he is attracted to?

The fact is most black men these days are looking for the typical "Video Girl." Whether she be black, white or any other race, most men look for the images portrayed on television.



quote:
If black women would work together with the black man, whether he is ajanitor, custodian or manager in a fast food establishment, I believe theywill see they have more choices then they realize. Belittling someone's jobor career choices will never attract someone to you or keep them with you.There is a vast difference between encouragement and denouncement. Noteveryone has a self-ameliorated personality, and black women tend not torecognize this difference.



So no matter what........black men dont want a 200lb sista, that has her own in life................but a sista should want a janitor, custodian or fast food manager?

Am i reading this right?? Roll Eyes

Gimmie a damn break!! Mad


Like i mentioned before.......i live in Tampa, and when i go out, i never look 'at' black men.
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
[QUOTE]

So no matter what........black men dont want a 200lb sista, that has her own in life................but a sista should want a janitor, custodian or fast food manager?

Am i reading this right?? Roll Eyes

Gimmie a damn break!! Mad


Like i mentioned before.......i live in Tampa, and when i go out, i never look 'at' black men.


Writing as a former Janitor--I agree with Sister qty226. Black women should not settle for a "limited blue-collar-type." By no means--besides, there are plenty of women form other cultures who have no prob with an "average man".

--So, when you see these Blue-collar, uneducated, limited Blackmen with those "other women"...don't complain.
quote:
Originally posted by thayfen:
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
[QUOTE]

So no matter what........black men dont want a 200lb sista, that has her own in life................but a sista should want a janitor, custodian or fast food manager?



Writing as a former Janitor--I agree with Sister qty226. Black women should not settle for a "limited blue-collar-type." By no means--besides, there are plenty of women form other cultures who have no prob with an "average man".

--So, when you see these Blue-collar, uneducated, limited Blackmen with those "other women"...don't complain.



Not that I'm in favor of anybody settling but I'll just throw in that I was once a construction worker (gasp Eek) . I was even a janitor for a little bit. And even then, I read books during my breaks.... Ahem .... choke .... Ahem.....Not that I'm tryin' to say anything .... Ahem ....
quote:
Originally posted by thayfen:
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
[QUOTE]

So no matter what........black men dont want a 200lb sista, that has her own in life................but a sista should want a janitor, custodian or fast food manager?

Am i reading this right?? Roll Eyes

Gimmie a damn break!! Mad


Like i mentioned before.......i live in Tampa, and when i go out, i never look 'at' black men.


Writing as a former Janitor--I agree with Sister qty226. Black women should not settle for a "limited blue-collar-type." By no means--besides, there are plenty of women form other cultures who have no prob with an "average man".

--So, when you see these Blue-collar, uneducated, limited Blackmen with those "other women"...don't complain.



You know.....i expected a man to throw another 'race' of women in this equation.

It seems that a lot of brothas, still want to hold this over our heads. Think again.......please notice that sistas are complaining less about these issues, we are finally getting the point.....and for the most part, are moving on. (well at least i am)

Also, i find it funny, that you commented on the fact of "blue collar workers", but you said nothing about how brothers, turn away decent sistas because of their looks!

Yanno....shes too black, fat, ugly, hair too nappy.

Whatever, im done........!!
Nobody's saying you have to date an ugly or ignorant or disrepectful blue collar brother just because he's a brother. Likewise, a brother shouldn't feel compelled to date an unattractive (to him) sister just because of her education, wealth or career. What we are saying is that a person (man or woman) not having a "professional" job, does not make them less qualified to be a good mate. A college degree is not THE gold standard for intelligence.

Ultimately, I think you have to go where your traits are desired. Some men like skinny women - some like big women, etc. Find that place where like interests, qualities & goals are pursued.

HB & Thayfen are giving you some playful jabs tfro, but you are setting up a catch 22 with your expectations. If a brother is eliminated from your (and many other sisters) dating pool because he's blue collar, what is he supposed to do? Sit home dateless, just so he doesn't receive scorn for interracial dating? I've never dated interracially, but if that floats your boat & you're mature enough to deal with all the social implications of a long term relationship with someone outside your race - DO YOUR THING!
quote:

HB & Thayfen are giving you some playful jabs tfro, but you are setting up a catch 22 with your expectations. If a brother is eliminated from your (and many other sisters) dating pool because he's blue collar, what is he supposed to do? Sit home dateless, just so he doesn't receive scorn for interracial dating?


And I'm also saying that being blue collar doesn't necesarily tell you about what's inside that person or what they're capable of. Yes I was a janitor once. But I was bright and curious and read a lot even then. I have a Ph.D. now.

And if I dated outside my race it was in part because I had such a hard time finding a sister before I had a Ph.D.

Lighten up. Open up your eyes...Realize... Isn't that a song? Smile
We (black people) need to stop focusing on finding love "outside" and start finding love on the "inside". Our romantic lives tend to follow our personal/professional lives. How many brothas/sistas have hooked up with someone "just because" or because of "loneliness"? Now nobody should want to be with someone who is not at least working on thier potential. If your only option is to be with a janitor/waitress, pick the janitor/waitress that knows the value of a dollar, has and utilizes good judgement, displays a truly good heart and sound mind and you should be okay. If said janitor/waitress is always asking for 5 bucks every week, thats a sign right there... Big Grin (and yes I know some custodians and food preparers that have more money stashed away and more intellictual acumen than PHD's). But to not have some romantic ideal and standards is just plain foolish as well as not observing every aspect of someone. Yes, some people are diamonds in the rough just waiting to be discovered but there are also some who are just plain rough...and should be left right where they are. *Whew* I'm done now, I can finally enjoy this fish sandwich I've been drooling over.......... thanks
You guys are all completely missing the point of qty's post (and all the others posts like hers that have come before). Do none of you see the disparity between the two standards she pointed out? It doesn't strike any of you as ODD that it is fine and even considered "rational" for a Black man to want the best looking woman available ("Who wouldn't choose a video girl over a 200 lb woman?" was the gist of the quote, I believe), but a Black woman is immediately scolded (as we see from the posts immediately following qty's post) for wanting anything "too fancy." She must be open to the buck-toothed, hump-backed janitor, but it's "just common sense" for the Black man to only want the Halle Berry and Beyonce look-a-likes. All of that was lost on you all?

The point is NOT that "janitors aint shit" or however else things were apparently interpreted. It's the double standard.
I was once a janitor but am neither hump backed nor buck toothed, I don't know too many brothas that date anyone looking remotely like Halle Berry (much less Beyonce), and I don't have a problem with 200 lb chicks...Now the 300 lb chicks is another subject....

Are ya'll sure that the outbreak of brothas dating Beyonce look-alikes isn't a figment of your collective imagination? What a man lusts after and claims he wants is not necessarily what he dates or actually desires. Let's not argue because we're confusing somebody's fantasy with reality.

And even if these brothas were plentiful (which I doubt) it's not quite a double standard. An ambitious and intelligent janitor can still go far in life... if a sista weighs 400 lbs the odds are very much against her ever looking like Beyonce...
Two things:
1 - Gambit, I wasn't talking to you. Turn that frown upside down.

2 - HonestB, you're still missing it, baby. Hee hee. It is not that men are going out and dating these "perfect women," it's that it's perfectly okay for them to want that and the same is not true for us. THAT is the double standard. It works like this:

In front of a man stands Halle Berry and a random Plain Jane.

Man: I choose Halle!
Crowd Reaction: Naturally! Who wouldn't?

In front of a woman stands Denzel and a random Plain Joe.

Woman: I choose Denzel!
Crowd Reaction: That's what's wrong with you all. What makes you think you are worthy of dating a Denzel? You all are focused on the wrong things and need to be open to all types of Black men and stop trying to go for the Denzels. Why does a brotha have to have all of this stuff before you will look at him? What happened to growing with a brotha? And if Denzel cheats on you, you deserve it and I'm gonna laugh because that is what you get going after those types of desireable men.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
Two things:
2 - HonestB, you're still missing it, baby. Hee hee. It is not that men are going out and dating these "perfect women," it's that it's perfectly okay for them to want that and the same is not true for us. THAT is the double standard.


Well maybe, baby, you're right. I'm just not getting it. Personally I'd take Alfre Woodard over either Beyonce or Halle Berry. And I just learned she's married to a white guy.

Maybe it's just me. I like smart women. And I know if I require both brains and a body like Beyonce I'll be waiting forever...

And in the end we're still just arguing over people's fantasies... OK we're arguing over a fantasy double standard.

giveup You win. But it still boils down to fantasy. And the only thing important to me is reality.

Video girls? I don't have cable and haven't watched TV in over 4 years. I don't even know what the video girls look like.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
HonestB, you're still missing it, baby. Hee hee. It is not that men are going out and dating these "perfect women," it's that it's perfectly okay for them to want that and the same is not true for us. THAT is the double standard.


Frenchy, I think your the one who's missing it. The double stadard exists because men and women have different stadards. It's perfectly O.K. for men to want women that look like Halle Barry. It's perfectly O.K. for women to want men who look like Denzel Wahington. But, if that's what you want, then that's what you get. No complaining about personality issues that were not taken into considration at the outset.

The issue being driven into the dirt here is "What are you looking for?" Are you looking for a janitor or a supermodel? The answer is no... but what we are looking for could be found in either of these two places.
And I would take a nice, respectful Plain Joe over a Denzel any day of the week. But that's not the issue. It's about more than just what we are allowed to fantasize about and pursue. For women, who are already in a sexist society, it is yet another excuse for men to use to belittle, undermine, and irrationally blame us. sad
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
The double stadard exists because men and women have different stadards.


What do you mean by that?


I mean that men and women don't look for (or even at) the same things when looking at a prospective partner. Therefore, It's silly for us to judge each other based on our own (unique) standards. Most especially when it's not even our own relationship that we're talking about.

However, It just might be beneficial for us to try and understand each others standards. That might make it easier to actually find a partner.
quote:
Originally posted by nayo:
Name-calling? Darn. I especially agreed with this:
"Most of the so-called love I've seen has been a lot of infantile degradation..."

Ad nauseum. I recently had a black fellow, ask me could I find him a girlfriend. Ask me could I find HIM a girlfriend. I said my name was'nt 'Hitch'. Then, he goes on to say, "you sure got some big legs...I see those big legs everyday, and I say mmmmmmmm. Where yo man at, gurrl? Let me give you my phone number, and you tell ya girls about me. ya heah. I'm 53 years old, and I needs a woman. The woman I just broke up was to needy, to clingy. Tell ya girls about me" wth.

This on the train to work, in my suit, attache case. No, I was'nt doing the 'stuck-up' thing. Not at all, but can I just get a good morning and how are you today, and you sure look nice. Spoken to me, and not at me? And not that it matters (much) but we were the only two Black American folk on the train; and, the others were 'oyinbo'. lol! And he was loud.


oyinbo...hmm...Nayo..are you Nigerian? just curious.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
I mean that men and women don't look for (or even at) the same things when looking at a prospective partner.


What do you mean by this, specifically?


Category A: Qualities women look for in men- Confidence, Self-Control, Mystery, A Sense Of Challenge.

Category B: Qualities men look for in women- Flexability, Integrity, Loyalty, A Giving Nature.

All of these things are good qualities, but the difference lies in the priorities.

A woman will stay with a man who has all of the qualities in Category A, even if he has none of the qualities in Category B. But, if he has all of the qualities in Category B, and none of the qualities in Category A, he will find himself on the curb.

A man will stay with a woman who has all of the qualities in Category B, even if she has none of the qualities in Category A. But, if she has all of the qualities in Category A, and none of the qualities in Category B, she will find herself on the curb.

Specifically.Smile
If I may, a little about myself:...besides my humble education: I'm 5'6", weigh 147, I'm losing my hair and I wear glasses. I have been informed on many an occasion by many a Sista, that while I have a great personality"”I'm respectful, patient, loving, generous, loyal, dedicated and funny...I'm not their "cup of tea". They loved me, but could never be "in love" with me.

I understood this, kept the bitterness at bay and continue to enjoy friendships with five Sistas which has spanned these twenty-five years. I understand my looks are not my strongest attribute, and I'm good with that. I never expected a fashion model to fall for me"”but the "Plain-Janes" can picky too.

Do you want me to describe the Brothers whom they engaged in child-bearing relationships? Women can chose also"”I understand that this choice is an individual thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
And how does this Category A & B theory you have justify or explain the Double Standard that's been pointed out?

I don't see how any of that speaks to why it is okay for men to aim for the best but women must remain "realistic" with respect to dating partners.


The Double Standard only exists because of the different words being used. The different words being used are the evidence of different standards, not a double standard. If a women aims for the best, what is she aiming for specifically? Is she aiming for Denzel? Why? Is that the best? What this article was trying to point out is that, for women, finding love is about finding Category A. It's not about finding Denzel, unless Denzel fits Category A. Now, is that aiming for the best, or is it being realistic?

And when did anyone start expecting women to be realistic? Did I miss a memo? The last time I looked women started planning their weddings at about five years old, and it usually involves a knight in shinning armor astride a unicorn. What's realistic about this?

Let me try this another way. If there is a double standard, is it not imposed on women by themselves? Are women asking themselves, "is it better to be alone because I didn't get Denzel (because he's the 'best'), or should I be 'realistic' because having a relationship is more important?"

Basically, aiming for the best=being realistic. That's why there's no Double Standard.
Last edited {1}
Frenchy -

There were three posts after qty226's response before yours. Which one touted a double standard? Here's mine again:

quote:
Nobody's saying you have to date an ugly or ignorant or disrepectful blue collar brother just because he's a brother. Likewise, a brother shouldn't feel compelled to date an unattractive (to him) sister just because of her education, wealth or career. What we are saying is that a person (man or woman) not having a "professional" job, does not make them less qualified to be a good mate. A college degree is not THE gold standard for intelligence.

Ultimately, I think you have to go where your traits are desired. Some men like skinny women - some like big women, etc. Find that place where like interests, qualities & goals are pursued.

HB & Thayfen are giving you some playful jabs , but you are setting up a catch 22 with your expectations. If a brother is eliminated from your (and many other sisters) dating pool because he's blue collar, what is he supposed to do? Sit home dateless, just so he doesn't receive scorn for interracial dating? I've never dated interracially, but if that floats your boat & you're mature enough to deal with all the social implications of a long term relationship with someone outside your race - DO YOUR THING!


Where's the double standard? There was no scolding. If you set looks aside, how do you know that a blue collar or non-degreed person can't be a good mate for you? Note there have been very few discussions about people's physical preferences, outside of Rowe. We are talking about personality traits. If you know that common ratio of women to men is 10 to 1 on college campuses, isn't it apparent that every female college graduate can't have a college educated mate? Black females are more prevalent in white collar jobs as well (in relation to Black males). If those are prime criteria for choosing potential mates, you know going in you have a smaller pool to choose from.
I am apparently speaking a different language because you all are still not hearing me.

I am not talking about the merits of a blue collar man. There's nothing wrong with a janitor or whatever else. I've expressed that several times now.

Please go back and read the quotation that QTY pulled out of the article and her response. Then note your own comments in response, effectively proving exactly what both of us have been saying. Please also note the scenario that I posted.

It's acceptable for a Black man to choose a Halle Berry. That is seen as the obvious choice if given a chance (ONCE AGAIN, the quote from the article goes something like "If you put these two side by side, men naturally will go to the video girl look alike."). Why do you spend time trying to pound it into ours that we need to keep our eyes squarely on the value of the Everyman at all times? We are the ones dating the plethora of Everymen, while you cast aside the Plain Janes as too black & ugly and whatever else. We don't need to hear this. We don't need that lecture about how the college degree is not the gold standard. When you put Denzel next to the garbage man and the sista goes gaga over Denzel we run into the lecture about the merits of the garbage man and how just because he has that job doesn't mean he isn't smart and can't provide and we are shooting ourselves in the foot for not looking at the garbage man and blahblahblah. That is the constant disparity. And it's not something specific to men on this board.

I don't know a different way to keep saying this. We'll just have to remain on different planets if it's not clear at this point.
We're speaking the same langauge, you're just reading & comprehending in another one! Big Grin

Reread this portion:
quote:
Note there have been very few discussions about people's physical preferences, outside of Rowe. We are talking about personality traits.


We're not talking about men wanting Halle or women wanting Denzel. Look around at couples next time you go out - how many men are "Denzel" & how many women are "Halle"? Most of us date & marry the "everywoman" too. What many of the men here have told you is this:

We don't care about a woman's career when choosing a mate
We don't care about a woman's degrees when choosing a mate

Many of the women here insist that those two things should matter more than all the things we've (Men) said matters to us in relationships.

If what you're doing now for your relationships is working, cool. If not, do you insist on doing things the same way, expecting a different result? bang Or do you try something different? All of the embittered Black men & women need to try something different. You can be "right" or you can be happy. appl

Always with heart & concern

bow bigddouble bow

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