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http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/02/Floridian/Black_women_speak_out.shtml

Black women speak out

Earlier this week, African-American men answered women's question "Do Black Men Still Want Us?' Now women discuss their romantic options and struggles.

By RODNEY THRASH
Published October 2, 2004
Where is the love?
A magazine asks whether black men still desire black women. Eight men offer their answers.
Letters to the Editor: More responses to "Do Black Men Still Want Us?"
Spirited comments about romantic options and worries


When elementary school teacher Patti Hairston picked up Monday's edition of the St. Petersburg Times, she braced herself.

"I knew there would be negative things said about black women by black men," she said.

I'd written a story in which eight black men responded to this question posed by Essence, a black women's magazine: Do Black Men Still Want Us? I didn't want to write a meaty thesis with tons of data and expert analysis. I wanted to speak to real people, not experts. And I wanted to engage black men who were unafraid to speak openly and candidly about black women. Their voices often have been either muffled or absent from this discussion..

I knew their comments would resonate with some, offend many and embarrass others. But more than anything, I wanted the story to spark a dialogue. Statistics show that the black family is in crisis, black women are more likely to live alone than white women are, and we're far more likely to see a black man in a jail cell than in a college lecture hall. Black men and women need to talk about why things are the way they are and how they can be fixed.

The story has forced people to do just that. Days after the story was published, my e-mail inbox and telephone voicemail are clogged with messages from women and men living in small towns in North Carolina and big cities such as Chicago. Still more people e-mailed the story to their girlfriends and social and professional organizations. Here's what some had to say, in their words.
Lori Chung, 28, associate TV news producer, single, Brooklyn

Personally, I don't feel the love from black men to black women and doubt much of that "love" still exists. And I don't buy the argument that white or nonblack women are "easier" or "less challenging" than black women. I have friends of all shades, so I know that to be false. This appears to be an excuse that men use to appease us and themselves and to avoid the realization that they simply feel that nonblack women are somehow better than sistas. They want the envy of their friends, their kids to have "nice" hair and to feel a sense of accomplishment and success through their mate.

I believe the nature of our problem as black women is that we have a strong sense of loyalty (and I would argue misplaced) to black men. I can't tell you how many times I've heard sistas say that "it's either a black man or no one at all," and they're often stuck with the latter. Just as brothers have realized that they have options, we also need to be open to our options. We have more choices than settling for someone not good enough, sharing a man, or being alone. I've realized that there ARE plenty of good men out there, but they may not look like you or share the same ethnic background. Once you open up yourself to love from any direction, you won't feel a man shortage.
Kim Jordan, 38, insurance claims representative, single, St. Petersburg

The gentleman . . . talked about dating a (Polish and Italian) chiropractor. She supported him during a rough time. Black women are probably some of the most supportive women around, but I think it's still not enough coming from a black woman. I think if you've got a black woman and a white woman and they're doing the exact same thing, (black men are) going to look at what the white woman offers as something better than what the black woman offers. It can be the same kind of support. I think it's more about something different. It's something black men were told they couldn't do. I think it's more about that than what the white woman has to offer.

The relationship I just got out of, prior to dating me he'd been in a relationship for three years with a white woman. About a month into our relationship, he (said he) was scared of getting hurt (again). He was able to fight in this three-year relationship with this white woman. That's almost a slap in the face to a black woman. This (white) woman treated you like a crap and you stayed in the relationship for three years, but here all you can do is keep running scared. I don't understand. There are a lot of supportive black women, but it seems that we still lose out. It still is not good enough.
Talice Sanford, 35, eligibility administrator at Ceridian Benefit Services, single, St. Petersburg

Though I agree with some of the points made in this article, I think we have missed one other crucial point. Physical appearance. These days, it seems that appearance matters more than whether this woman is educated or employed. If you put an educated 200-pound woman (with) no children and taking care of her own next to a 125-pound woman with four kids and no job, who do you think he is attracted to?

The fact is most black men these days are looking for the typical "Video Girl." Whether she be black, white or any other race, most men look for the images portrayed on television.

If a black man is having a hard time finding a real black woman, a woman of substance, maybe he should broaden his scope a little. I'm in no way suggesting that he lower his standards. I'm actually asking a question: If you had a choice between a "gift" that is wrapped in the most beautiful paper you've ever seen and one that was cute but not so neatly wrapped, which one would you choose? You would be surprised at what each package contains. We keep passing the buck. Brothers blame the sisters and sisters blame the brothers. We all need to take a long look at ourselves before we start pointing fingers. Both sexes need to realize that who we choose as a partner says a lot about who we are. And if we are looking for a life partner, we really need to scrutinize our reason for choosing that person.

I must say something to my sisters. We complain constantly about the way we are treated. But the fact is, there are some of us who allow it. When a black man meets a strong black woman, part of the reason he doesn't stay around is because he knows that there is a "simpleton" out there who won't demand to be treated with respect. As long as we continue to allow ourselves to be mistreated, it will continue.
Sylvia Hopson

I am a professional black woman who has been having problems with African-American men. Just through my personal relationship explorations, speaking with black male friends and reading the current literature on this topic, black relationships are definitely in turmoil.

I have been told that because I am intelligent, ambitious, attractive and somewhat enlightened, I am undesirable to a lot of African-American men. To echo what one of the gentlemen said in the article, I was told that I was not submissive enough for a lot of black men.

Initially that stings. It stings (not only) because I know that I am loving and kind, but because I have all of these other attributes it makes me fundamentally unwanted by a lot of men. It saddens me more because it seems as if the vast majority of black men want a "submissive" woman. What does that say about the state of black "manhood" today? I think that is a sad reflection of the kind of trouble we are in as a race.

Further, let's say I did change myself to become more demure, submissive and feminine so that I am actually desirable to many black men and, as a result, I do find a committed relationship. One has to think, "What kind of man am I committed to?" Am I committed to an honorable, secure, self-assured and decent human or did I just commit myself to a scared little boy who has to be constantly pampered and coddled and who never returns that nurturing? Black women need to be nurtured, too. We just can't give to a selfish and self-centered human being all the time before we ourselves fall out from exhaustion.
Joanna Banks-Shackleford

I'm a 43-year-old divorced black woman. I've been divorced for nine years now. I am intelligent, attractive, well-traveled and spiritual. Yet I find myself having to go beyond dating African-American men for companionship. I think the issues that black women are facing that were not mentioned in your article are those dealing with trust, respect and commitment.

You made a good point that black women pretend to be strong and independent when we don't really want to be. But in order for us to relinquish that stance or let down our guard to reveal the soft, submissive side that is willing to recognize our king as king, we have to be able to trust: trust that he is willing and ready to cherish his queen. Do you feel that since there are so many women out there looking for love, why should you give in so easily? What you fail to realize is that this perception of settling too soon is in fact limiting your possibilities because the good ones that are intuitive enough to sense that you're not giving your all, and that you're burning the coals in many different fires, will never open to you completely to reveal their true worth. A vicious cycle. Nobody wins. I'm still hopeful that one day, my Mr. Right will come along. He'll see me, appreciate me, cherish me and get in return a very deep and lasting love that he thought possible only in a book or a dream.
Patti Hairston, 44, elementary school teacher, divorced, Gulfport

I desire a black man who wants to be the head and not the tail. I will never give up on black men. I have never considered dating outside of my race, even though I do have black female friends who say they have given up black men because of the way they have been treated. I often wonder if black men who date outside of their race will ever be honest enough to admit that they sometimes treat nonblack women better than they treat black women; some black men seem to hate us just because we're black. I don't understand that mentality when, in fact, it was a black woman who gave birth to them. I wonder if they ever consider the fact that most black men left the black woman and child, leaving the woman to play the role of mama and daddy (which would make a woman of any color strong). I see my brothers on a daily basis taking so much pride in spending time with their mixed kids in the mall, in the park or just taking their kids shopping, and I often I wonder if this brother has any black kids who would love that same kind of attention or, better yet, just would love to be able to be in the presence of their daddy. When I see a brother with a nonblack woman he seems to be so proud to have her on his arm; I always pray that he's with her because he loves her, not because she's not black. For the black men who date white women exclusively, I realize there is a self-hatred going on. To all of the brothers who still desire black women, may God bless you for not giving up on us, because there are a lot of us like myself who will never give up on you.

Ain't nothing like a brotha.
* * *

While most of the responses were from black women, a few black men also responded. Theloneous Massai, 46, was one of them.

Massai, married for 20 years to a black woman, said the article was embarrassing.

"Black women just want black "males' to stand up and be men, to accept the challenge of manhood," he wrote. "Most guys aren't willing to pay the cost to be the boss. If you can't pay the rent/house note, car note, utilities, groceries, etc., then keep your pants zipped up until you can.

"Black men who don't step up to the plate are missing out on the best women in the world."

- Rodney Thrash can be reached at 813 269-5313 or rthrash@sptimes.com
[Last modified October 1, 2004, 08:55:12]
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EVEN MORE!!

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/02/Floridian/More_responses_to__Do.shtml

More responses to "Do Black Men Still Want Us?"

Spirited comments about romantic options and worries

Letters to the Editor
Published October 2, 2004
Where is the love?
A magazine asks whether black men still desire black women. Eight men offer their answers.
Black women speak out
Earlier this week, African-American men answered women's question "Do Black Men Still Want Us?' Now women discuss their romantic options and struggles.


Andre King

Great article on the status of black man/woman relationships. I don't think that that is the end of the black man's opinion on this, however. Even though there were a variety of opinions on the subject, most of them seemed little more than simple preferences. And that is what I think all of this boils down to. If I were to date a woman of another race, I would date her because I wanted to, and not make excuses such as "there are no good black women" or "black women dating white men has forced me to date outside the race." I think women of all races should be held to this same standard, because it's not just black women that do this. Black women can find good black men, it's all about whether they want to.

The second thing I have a problem with is this notion of black women being touted as studious, god-fearing saints and black men labeled as cheating, homosexual bums. Anyone who has lived on this Earth long enough (or learned something in that time) knows that saints and sinners exist in every race and gender.

I think the biggest underlying issue at hand here is instead of blaming others for your relationship rut, you need to look inside yourself and figure out why you attract the type of people you do. Another thing to consider is whether you are emotionally stable enough to engage in a new relatioship without punishing the one you're with because of what someone else did in the past. If you never come to terms with this stuff, you will always blame everyone else as to why you are not happy, and you will always have a handy excuse be it AIDS, "down-low", attitude or laziness, to project on the opposite sex of your own race.

By the way, I am a black man who has had many relationsips with black women, both good and bad, but I refuse to use the past as an excuse to do something that I wanted to do anyway.
Donna Light

I am a black woman that married a white man. For me, it was not about color. I didn't set out saying, "I think I'll marry a white man." For me, it had to do with interests. Yes, education did play a part in it as well, but I would say that it was more intelligence. My husband did not go to college, he went to the military, but he is very intelligent. We also have the same interests in theater and music. I have often been asked why I made this decision, and black people have often looked upon me as a traitor, but one thing I can say is that I am happy!
Angela Turner

The Down Low Phenomenon

The fact that this has now surfaced as a topic of conversation does not change the fact that it has always been the case since war-times when men were in such closed quarters for an extended period of time. All you have to do is look at the disproportionate number of black women with AIDS and it is clear that many of them contracted this from a infected black man that she thought was straight. This is not a slap in the face of black women, but moreso is another signal that more and more black men desire not to make a commitment and simply want sex however they can get it. Now the men must realize that they are not only endangering their own lives but also those of the women they truly love. A few minutes can't possibly be more desireable than a lifetime of fatal pain.

WANT vs NEED of a man

Black women have progressed significantly over the last 25 years through obtaining a better education, being career-focused and taking to heart the song "God Bless the Child That's Got His Own." We are not in NEED of a man for the basics of life, but we do still WANT a man. And most of us prefer a black man to create and complete our family. It is sad that so many women are now choosing to go it alone by having a child without a husband. What most of us still want is a man to admire our inner as well as external beauty; we want a man to share special moments with; we want a man to desire us and appreciate what we have to offer to the relationship. We WANT a man to call our own!!!

Available Black Men

The question about whether there are any available black men is a ridiculous one, seeing whereas the population of African-Americans continues to grow rapidly. Yes, they are available, and it isn't about whether or not we are willing to "settle" for one. It truly is a matter of compatiblity. We have to simply spend more time communicating with one another and realize that perfection doesn't exist but finding compatibility through sharing can lead us back to each other.

Men as the King of the Castle

Every adult man deserves to feel and be treated as the King of the Castle in his home. The key to this is that it is HIS home, not HERS or his mama's. In the same vein, however, he must realize that his significant other deserves to be the Queen of that same castle (and) treated with respect, dignity and honor. It is possible, because each of us came from a mother and we treat her as a black woman with that level of loving.

An Educated Woman

A. L. Reynolds seemed to insinuate that by educating our black women we somehow created the strained relations between them and black men. How ludicrous is that!! Due to our education, we are in a position to be helpful and beneficial to our family. It isn't a mere racial thing that only black men are intimidaed by black women. ALL men are intimidated by "strong" black women. Not because these women are arrogant or overbearing, but because they hold their ground and don't back off. A black woman has gone through so much over history, and instinctively has had to be strong. That strength has come through getting an education, raising children, taking care of the home and holding the family together (sometimes even an extended family). Basically all she wants in return is an appreciation for what she does. And guess what, fellows? It will probably result in her giving even MORE of herself to you and her family. So wise up, black men. Never will you find a more caring, loving and supportive woman than one that resembles your own mother. Value us, and we will share the wealth of our essence with you for a lifetime!!!
E.M. Johnson

I just wanted to add my commentary as a black man to this intriguingarticle.

First and foremost, black women have a problem with a dominant alpha male.Add intelligence, wit, eloquence and charm, and they tend to run for thehills. If the black male is moderately successful, then they don't seem tohave the commonalities needed to mesh as one family unit, normally becausethey took two different paths to get to their level of success.

Another issue facing black women is that they tend to be condescendingbecause they feel they have to settle for someone not own their own level.I recall when I was going to college, the black women didn't give me thetime of day because I didn't have enough gold around my neck, or didn'tdrive a nice car (or a car better then what they drove).

Black women don't tend to recognize the powers have subtly divided the menfrom their women. Black males make up 6.2 percent of the U.S. population, but yetmake up over 58 percent of the prisons. One has to wonder: Do that many blackmen have a criminal mentality? I think not. If one gender is given moreopportunities to succeed than the other, then the male is going to want toprovide for his family in some form of fashion. Though I don't excuse thecriminal behavior, I certainly understand where it stems from.

If black women would work together with the black man, whether he is ajanitor, custodian or manager in a fast food establishment, I believe theywill see they have more choices then they realize. Belittling someone's jobor career choices will never attract someone to you or keep them with you.There is a vast difference between encouragement and denouncement. Noteveryone has a self-ameliorated personality, and black women tend not torecognize this difference.

Finally, if a black man has found material success, it doesn't automaticallymeans he has a white woman on his arm, and this translates into him wantinga more submissive woman. This harkens back to the commonalities that twopeople must share to work through a relationship. It has been this writer'spersonal experience that caucasian women tend to support with empathy thanwith caustic humiliation as a black man progresses up the corporate ladder.For most, that empathy speaks volumes and is not indicative of being submissiveas was indicated by some. However, one great advantage that black womenhave that nonblacks do not have is the fact of their common ancestry. Nomatter how much a nonblack woman may love a black man, she will neverunderstand the racial discrimination he faces on a daily basis, and that iswhy a strong black woman is desired and should be appreciated by all blackmen as well as men of other ethnic backgrounds.
Stephanie R. Sprow

I'm a 22-year-old black female studying government administration at a graduate school at an Ivy League university. Here is my take on the whole black man/black woman thing. There are simply less of them than there are of us, and they know it! The ratio of black men to women on college campuses across the country is nearing 1 to 10. Black men can basically have their pick of women without making many commitments. Black women have few choices; many of the white guys have never met educated black women who do not fit the media's stereotypes, and many of the black men take advantage of their first opportunity to "sow their oats." They have a plethora to choose from, and choose they do. The white girls like the idea of dating a black man and black men find white women very accessible (as they do women of all races really). Even if they have no serious intentions about being with their white classmates, they "dabble" in them to see what it is like and to get the experience of the "American Dream." I have no doubt that most of the black men I know in college will eventually end up with black women, but in the meantime, they don't have to. The competition is among black women; imagine running a race against everyone around you, and it seems like most of the competition is newer, faster and stronger.

The difficult thing for me, and I think most of my black female friends can agree, is trying to figure out what we should do in the meantime. There really are fewer eligible men out there than there are eligible women. So often, black women must carry the weight of the world on their shoulders. We battle sexism, racism, and all sorts of stereotyping every single day. It's nice to come home to the open arms of a strong person who loves you and can support you and make you feel good about your place in this world. It's nice to have someone who understands you and your struggles. No, we are not submissive as one of the contributors writes in the article. Why should we be? There is no time to be submissive in a world that labels us as gold diggers and welfare moms. We have to be strong and independent to survive, but then that's not appreciated either. We've got "attitudes," and as one white friend recently told me, too much "sassiness."

I think black men have gotten a bad rap lately, but I think some of them have just sunken to the level that the world expects of them. I refuse to settle for less than I deserve, and I know that there is a black man out there for me. The only difficult thing is most of us women (across all racial lines) are eyeing that same man. Thus, the competition begins again, and frankly the odds are not in our favor. Forgive us for having little faith. But more importantly, prove us wrong.
Shelia Atkinson

I feel very sad for black men. So many of them arelost. It takes a main girlfriend or wife and two womenon the side to make them feel complete. I attributeit to low self-esteem. I have been approached by menwhen their women (black women and white women) walk tothe other room. Or, they are shoving their ring finger in their pocket(clearly trying to hide it) while hitting on me.

I am so sick of the "strong black woman" issue. Ifyou throw a person in the middle of the ocean, theysink or swim. We don't have a choice.

As far as the trend of black men dating nonblackwomen, that is more of a black female issue. They needto open the door to a good man. If they choose to beracist and not look for a good man regardless of color,that is their problem.

However, this man sharing needs to stop cause blackwomen are getting HIV at record numbers.
Denise Lamar

I think relations between black men and black women have gotten worse over the years. When I was a little girl, I used to always see black couples together. Now they are few and far between. They say we don't want them. We do. But we are tired of putting up with foolishness in everything from the initial approach to courting. A lot of black men claim they love black women but don't back up their actions. Most of the so-called love I've seen has been a lot of infantile degradation and emphasis on our posterior backsides. We are more than a big butt. Finding someone equal to our economic status is hard. Most of the black men I've met in Chicago have not stepped foot inside a college and work in low income jobs. We have no choice but to give up on black men.
Nicole Nixon

I just finished reading your article. I have to tell you that I have made the same comments recently that Michael Baisden made in the article. I am a very strong woman that has had trouble finding the right person. I laughed a little to myself when I read those words because when I said them I instantly thought to myself that not many women would openly admit that they don't want to be the powerful forces that they are. The truth is that the rewards of a strong family foundation are not out front and in the face of black men and nonblack men for that matter. Everywhere you look, read or hear, commercials or print ads about condoms and sexual enhancement herbs or prescriptions. Sex is everywhere. Instant gratification has become the order of the day. The concepts of sacrifice and hard work or smart work for that matter have been lost in a society where we finance our lifestyle instead of living within our means. I could go on, but I will stop there.
Wendy Martin

Do black women still desire black men? I would say yes. In my own opinion, I still desire black men but not black American men. I mean for so long black women have not been given the credit as being the strong black woman who can and will stand behind her man. A black American man wants to be the head of the household but he does not want to take some of the responsibilities that come with running the house. When it comes down to financial situations, the American black man does not want to step up to the plate. Therefore, the black woman feels as though she's in charge of everything and that's what makes her so strong. She has managed before she met you and she can manage without you. I'm exploring different cultures Black American men run to the other side because of the strength that a black woman has. A black woman has no problem with stepping back and letting the black man take over provided he can provide.
Adam Shelton

I am 24-year-old college graduate from Oklahoma State University. I am currently living in Tampa. I was reading your article, "Whereis the love?" I believe that there areplenty of good black men and women left. It's just sohard to find someone who's worth a good relationship.Right now, I am a single man. I would love to date agood woman but I haven't run into one yet. I am notlooking for someone that is perfect in every way, butsomeone that interests me and grabs my attention in apositive and mature way. As far as race, it doesn'treally matter. I prefer a woman who is strong andwilling to be in a real relationship with me. Idon't want to be with any woman who is a bad influenceon me. I want someone who has a vision and can succeed with or without me. Ibelieve any race can provide those options. A good relationship is all about patience andsacrificing to get a level of true love. I am ready forthe step to happen.
Angela Judge

Sore spot for me is black men dating white women or Hispanic women or Asian women, not black women and exclusively not black women.

There are brothers who I guess have given up on black women and they'll take all of the goodness that's in them or that they could be and just give it away to any other body.

They (white women) don't challenge black men and they don't challenge black men in a lot of areas because they have generally grown up being afraid of black men. I don't care where they come from. They don't challenge black men and black men get to the point where they don't want to be challenged or they don't want to be pushed or they don't want to be held accountable or held responsible. I think white women assume too much responsibility in a lot of relationships from what I've seen.

When I see them (a black man and a nonblack woman) walk by I look. My first question is always, "Did he exclusively seek her?" I don't have a problem with interracial relationships. I have a problem when they are done to the exclusion of black women.

You look at brothers and say, "Why not me?" Especially if she's tacky-looking. If she is like superwoman-put-together-got-it-going-on, I'm like, "Go on, brother. More power to you." But if she is just common like me, well why not me? And that's when I start to question are you dating to the exclusion of black women.
Carolyn Lighty

A man has always been a very low priority for me. What was important to me was my education, initially, my career and then (to) build a business. I didn't have time for a man.

...A lot of African-American men will tell you initially, "I want a strong black woman." But you'll find out later that they are intimidated like some of the men said in your article. I've had men say to me things like, "I can't buy you. I can't do anything for you." At that time, once my business was open and thriving, three cars, two homes. I had all of this stuff, accumulated wealth. And men feel like they need to give you those kinds of things. That became a point of contention. It made them feel intimidated or less than. Deep down, they're wanting to be that breadwinner, that caretaker, that provider kind of person.

With me, I grew up in a home where my mother, very strong, aggressive personality, with my stepfather chose to be subservient and to kind of stifle her personality in order to have stability. And I grew up saying, "That's not what I wanted to do." When you're nurtured in an environment where you see that this person can be so much more, wants to be so much more, but they feel in order to be in this marriage and to make the marriage work, and I know other women today who are that same way, they will pretend to be less-than or they will elevate that man just so they can stay and keep the marriage going.

If you're really a strong black man, you should be able to deal with a strong black woman.
[Last modified October 1, 2004, 11:10:07]
My take on Part One:...in bold

When elementary school teacher Patti Hairston picked up Monday's edition of the St. Petersburg Times, she braced herself.

"I knew there would be negative things said about black women by black men," she said.
very interesting, esp. since the writer of the original article was merely seeking the 'other side' of the Essence article.

Lori Chung, 28, associate TV news producer, single, Brooklyn

Personally, I don't feel the love from black men to black women and doubt much of that "love" still exists. And I don't buy the argument that white or nonblack women are "easier" or "less challenging" than black women. I have friends of all shades, so I know that to be false. This appears to be an excuse that men use to appease us and themselves and to avoid the realization that they simply feel that nonblack women are somehow better than sistas. They want the envy of their friends, their kids to have "nice" hair and to feel a sense of accomplishment and success through their mate.
Kinda funny how she can enter the minds of Black men and report back on what's inside...maybe a little easier to say, in the tone of the famous Dave Chappelle show's segment, 'Ask a Black Dude'..what he is thinking


The gentleman . . . talked about dating a (Polish and Italian) chiropractor. She supported him during a rough time. Black women are probably some of the most supportive women around, but I think it's still not enough coming from a black woman. I think if you've got a black woman and a white woman and they're doing the exact same thing, (black men are) going to look at what the white woman offers as something better than what the black woman offers. It can be the same kind of support. I think it's more about something different. It's something black men were told they couldn't do. I think it's more about that than what the white woman has to offer.

The relationship I just got out of, prior to dating me he'd been in a relationship for three years with a white woman. About a month into our relationship, he (said he) was scared of getting hurt (again). He was able to fight in this three-year relationship with this white woman. That's almost a slap in the face to a black woman. This (white) woman treated you like a crap and you stayed in the relationship for three years, but here all you can do is keep running scared. I don't understand. There are a lot of supportive black women, but it seems that we still lose out. It still is not good enough.
Talice Sanford, 35, eligibility administrator at Ceridian Benefit Services, single, St. Petersburg

* She sure sounds bitter laugh


"If you put an educated 200-pound woman (with) no children and taking care of her own next to a 125-pound woman with four kids and no job, who do you think he is attracted to?

The fact is most black men these days are looking for the typical "Video Girl." Whether she be black, white or any other race, most men look for the images portrayed on television.

If a black man is having a hard time finding a real black woman, a woman of substance, maybe he should broaden his scope a little. I'm in no way suggesting that he lower his standards. I'm actually asking a question: If you had a choice between a "gift" that is wrapped in the most beautiful paper you've ever seen and one that was cute but not so neatly wrapped, which one would you choose? You would be surprised at what each package contains."
Sylvia Hopson

*sounds like she weighs over 2 bills and wants to get that denzel kinda lovin...why should denzel date down?? Confused



I have been told that because I am intelligent, ambitious, attractive and somewhat enlightened, I am undesirable to a lot of African-American men. To echo what one of the gentlemen said in the article, I was told that I was not submissive enough for a lot of black men.

* the Bible says that women should be submissive to their husband. Why not display some of those qualities while dating...no man wants to come home to an argument or a rolling neck

Initially that stings. It stings (not only) because I know that I am loving and kind, but because I have all of these other attributes it makes me fundamentally unwanted by a lot of men. It saddens me more because it seems as if the vast majority of black men want a "submissive" woman. What does that say about the state of black "manhood" today? I think that is a sad reflection of the kind of trouble we are in as a race.

the state of black maleness/manhood..I do not want drama..the end

Further, let's say I did change myself to become more demure, submissive and feminine Confused so that I am actually desirable to many black men and, as a result, I do find a committed relationship. One has to think, "What kind of man am I committed to?" Am I committed to an honorable, secure, self-assured and decent human or did I just commit myself to a scared little boy who has to be constantly pampered and coddled and who never returns that nurturing?
*great idea, i can't get what i want so I'll defile may love target with insults Smile...'how's that working out for ya??' - Dr. Phil



I'm a 43-year-old divorced black woman. I've been divorced for nine years now.
watch out...head for the hills ..LOL!!

Do you feel that since there are so many women out there looking for love, why should you give in so easily? What you fail to realize is that this perception of settling too soon is in fact limiting your possibilities because the good ones that are intuitive enough to sense that you're not giving your all, and that you're burning the coals in many different fires, will never open to you completely to reveal their true worth. A vicious cycle. Nobody wins. I'm still hopeful that one day, my Mr. Right will come along. He'll see me, appreciate me, cherish me and get in return a very deep and lasting love that he thought possible only in a book or a dream.
Patti Hairston, 44, elementary school teacher, divorced, Gulfport
GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!!!


I desire a black man who wants to be the head and not the tail. I will never give up on black men. I have never considered dating outside of my race, even though I do have black female friends who say they have given up black men because of the way they have been treated...in relationships that they CHOSE to be in/stay in...a volunteer victim

I often wonder if black men who date outside of their race will ever be honest enough to admit that they sometimes treat nonblack women better than they treat black women; some black men seem to hate us just because we're black. I don't understand that mentality when, in fact, it was a black woman who gave birth to them. I wonder if they ever consider the fact that most black men left the black woman and child, leaving the woman to play the role of mama and daddy (which would make a woman of any color strong). I see my brothers on a daily basis taking so much pride in spending time with their mixed kids in the mall, in the park or just taking their kids shopping, and I often I wonder if this brother has any black kids who would love that same kind of attention or, better yet, just would love to be able to be in the presence of their daddy. When I see a brother with a nonblack woman he seems to be so proud to have her on his arm; I always pray that he's with her because he loves her, not because she's not black. For the black men who date white women exclusively, I realize there is a self-hatred going on. To all of the brothers who still desire black women, may God bless you for not giving up on us, because there are a lot of us like myself who will never give up on you.

Ain't nothing like a brotha.

*I hope this lady gets some counseling for her bitterness.
My Take on part two..in bold

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/02/Floridian/More_responses_to__Do.shtml

Andre King

Great article on the status of black man/woman relationships. I don't think that that is the end of the black man's opinion on this, however. Even though there were a variety of opinions on the subject, most of them seemed little more than simple preferences. And that is what I think all of this boils down to. If I were to date a woman of another race, I would date her because I wanted to, and not make excuses such as "there are no good black women" or "black women dating white men has forced me to date outside the race." I think women of all races should be held to this same standard, because it's not just black women that do this. Black women can find good black men, it's all about whether they want to.

The second thing I have a problem with is this notion of black women being touted as studious, god-fearing saints and black men labeled as cheating, homosexual bums. Anyone who has lived on this Earth long enough (or learned something in that time) knows that saints and sinners exist in every race and gender.

I think the biggest underlying issue at hand here is instead of blaming others for your relationship rut, you need to look inside yourself and figure out why you attract the type of people you do. Another thing to consider is whether you are emotionally stable enough to engage in a new relatioship without punishing the one you're with because of what someone else did in the past. If you never come to terms with this stuff, you will always blame everyone else as to why you are not happy, and you will always have a handy excuse be it AIDS, "down-low", attitude or laziness, to project on the opposite sex of your own race.

By the way, I am a black man who has had many relationsips with black women, both good and bad, but I refuse to use the past as an excuse to do something that I wanted to do anyway.
*Great Points


Donna Light

I am a black woman that married a white man. For me, it was not about color. I didn't set out saying, "I think I'll marry a white man." For me, it had to do with interests. Yes, education did play a part in it as well, but I would say that it was more intelligence. My husband did not go to college, he went to the military, but he is very intelligent. We also have the same interests in theater and music. I have often been asked why I made this decision, and black people have often looked upon me as a traitor, but one thing I can say is that I am happy!

LOVE IS COLORLESS!!!

Angela Turner

The Down Low Phenomenon

The fact that this has now surfaced as a topic of conversation does not change the fact that it has always been the case since war-times when men were in such closed quarters for an extended period of time.
so gayness is linked to close quarters?? what about roommates in college? Are they going to be gay because the Resident Life office accidently put them under those conditions?? what about the military??

All you have to do is look at the disproportionate number of black women with AIDS and it is clear that many of them contracted this from a infected black man that she thought was straight.
what about the many black women that got AIDS from drug use? what about the many black women that share the same babydaddy?? what about the black women that prefer to date bad boy [in and out of jail drug dealers]?? Prisons have an HIV rate 8 to 10 higher than the genereal population.


This is not a slap in the face of black women, but moreso is another signal that more and more black men desire not to make a commitment and simply want sex however they can get it. what about the Census proven statistic that 92% of black men marry black women...if 'black men didn't want a commitment, why are so many black men marrying other races in higher numbers than ever before??]Now the men must realize that they are not only endangering their own lives but also those of the women they truly love. A few minutes can't possibly be more desireable than a lifetime of fatal pain. blame, blame, blame...i'm sure glad black women are not taking responiblity of their poor choices...if they did they'd probably be in a deep depression!!


WANT vs NEED of a man

Black women have progressed significantly over the last 25 years through obtaining a better education, being career-focused and taking to heart the song "God Bless the Child That's Got His Own." We are not in NEED of a man for the basics of life, but we do still WANT a man. And most of us prefer a black man to create and complete our family. It is sad that so many women are now choosing to go it alone by having a child without a husband. What most of us still want is a man to admire our inner as well as external beauty; we want a man to share special moments with; we want a man to desire us and appreciate what we have to offer to the relationship. We WANT a man to call our own!!!

***it's funny how some people think that because they have acheived a certain level of "success" that they "deserve" a relationship, totally ignoring that personality, chemistry and attraction has to play a factor in these things as well. SOME people have a tendency to acquire certain things to make up for what they are lacking in other areas (looks, personality, etc.). So then when they finally get all their medals and degrees and gold stars they develop a chip in their shoulder and try to approach people with a bad attitude

If you're really a strong black man, you should be able to deal with a strong black woman.

DEAL WITH?? DEAL WITH?? I thought that people have to 'DEAL WITH' problems in their lives...are black women a 'problem' now??
[Last modified October 1, 2004, 11:10:07][/QUOTE]
Who can read through all of that, all of those different responses from both men and women, and still say there is no widespread problem with the way Black men are treating Black women? That it's a myth? Roll Eyes

quote:
They say we don't want them. We do. But we are tired of putting up with foolishness in everything from the initial approach to courting. A lot of black men claim they love black women but don't back up their actions. Most of the so-called love I've seen has been a lot of infantile degradation and emphasis on our posterior backsides. We are more than a big butt...We have no choice but to give up on black men.
-Nicole Nixon

tfro appl bow Love it! Love it! Yes, Sister Nixon!This is really something that needs to be shouted through a bullhorn directly into the ears of every Black man every morning when he wakes, so he can fully remember it throughout his day. Move away from the constant degredation and juvenile, Euro-loving behavior.
I still believe the "few good mates" argument is overblown & overhyped. People because of their preferences and flaws (recognized & unrecognized), sabotage many of their relationships. People should have:

Realistic expectations
Honest self-assessment
Objectivity in assessing a relationship
Willingness to forgive (themselves & others)
Adaptability


Too many people have rigid views of themselves, others, and relationships. Who knows, that single mom or blue collar man may surprise you!
Name-calling? Darn. I especially agreed with this:
"Most of the so-called love I've seen has been a lot of infantile degradation..."

Ad nauseum. I recently had a black fellow, ask me could I find him a girlfriend. Ask me could I find HIM a girlfriend. I said my name was'nt 'Hitch'. Then, he goes on to say, "you sure got some big legs...I see those big legs everyday, and I say mmmmmmmm. Where yo man at, gurrl? Let me give you my phone number, and you tell ya girls about me. ya heah. I'm 53 years old, and I needs a woman. The woman I just broke up was to needy, to clingy. Tell ya girls about me" wth.

This on the train to work, in my suit, attache case. No, I was'nt doing the 'stuck-up' thing. Not at all, but can I just get a good morning and how are you today, and you sure look nice. Spoken to me, and not at me? And not that it matters (much) but we were the only two Black American folk on the train; and, the others were 'oyinbo'. lol! And he was loud.
quote:

Though I agree with some of the points made in this article, I think we have missed one other crucial point. Physical appearance. These days, it seems that appearance matters more than whether this woman is educated or employed. If you put an educated 200-pound woman (with) no children and taking care of her own next to a 125-pound woman with four kids and no job, who do you think he is attracted to?

The fact is most black men these days are looking for the typical "Video Girl." Whether she be black, white or any other race, most men look for the images portrayed on television.



quote:
If black women would work together with the black man, whether he is ajanitor, custodian or manager in a fast food establishment, I believe theywill see they have more choices then they realize. Belittling someone's jobor career choices will never attract someone to you or keep them with you.There is a vast difference between encouragement and denouncement. Noteveryone has a self-ameliorated personality, and black women tend not torecognize this difference.



So no matter what........black men dont want a 200lb sista, that has her own in life................but a sista should want a janitor, custodian or fast food manager?

Am i reading this right?? Roll Eyes

Gimmie a damn break!! Mad


Like i mentioned before.......i live in Tampa, and when i go out, i never look 'at' black men.
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
[QUOTE]

So no matter what........black men dont want a 200lb sista, that has her own in life................but a sista should want a janitor, custodian or fast food manager?

Am i reading this right?? Roll Eyes

Gimmie a damn break!! Mad


Like i mentioned before.......i live in Tampa, and when i go out, i never look 'at' black men.


Writing as a former Janitor--I agree with Sister qty226. Black women should not settle for a "limited blue-collar-type." By no means--besides, there are plenty of women form other cultures who have no prob with an "average man".

--So, when you see these Blue-collar, uneducated, limited Blackmen with those "other women"...don't complain.
quote:
Originally posted by thayfen:
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
[QUOTE]

So no matter what........black men dont want a 200lb sista, that has her own in life................but a sista should want a janitor, custodian or fast food manager?



Writing as a former Janitor--I agree with Sister qty226. Black women should not settle for a "limited blue-collar-type." By no means--besides, there are plenty of women form other cultures who have no prob with an "average man".

--So, when you see these Blue-collar, uneducated, limited Blackmen with those "other women"...don't complain.



Not that I'm in favor of anybody settling but I'll just throw in that I was once a construction worker (gasp Eek) . I was even a janitor for a little bit. And even then, I read books during my breaks.... Ahem .... choke .... Ahem.....Not that I'm tryin' to say anything .... Ahem ....
quote:
Originally posted by thayfen:
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
[QUOTE]

So no matter what........black men dont want a 200lb sista, that has her own in life................but a sista should want a janitor, custodian or fast food manager?

Am i reading this right?? Roll Eyes

Gimmie a damn break!! Mad


Like i mentioned before.......i live in Tampa, and when i go out, i never look 'at' black men.


Writing as a former Janitor--I agree with Sister qty226. Black women should not settle for a "limited blue-collar-type." By no means--besides, there are plenty of women form other cultures who have no prob with an "average man".

--So, when you see these Blue-collar, uneducated, limited Blackmen with those "other women"...don't complain.



You know.....i expected a man to throw another 'race' of women in this equation.

It seems that a lot of brothas, still want to hold this over our heads. Think again.......please notice that sistas are complaining less about these issues, we are finally getting the point.....and for the most part, are moving on. (well at least i am)

Also, i find it funny, that you commented on the fact of "blue collar workers", but you said nothing about how brothers, turn away decent sistas because of their looks!

Yanno....shes too black, fat, ugly, hair too nappy.

Whatever, im done........!!
Nobody's saying you have to date an ugly or ignorant or disrepectful blue collar brother just because he's a brother. Likewise, a brother shouldn't feel compelled to date an unattractive (to him) sister just because of her education, wealth or career. What we are saying is that a person (man or woman) not having a "professional" job, does not make them less qualified to be a good mate. A college degree is not THE gold standard for intelligence.

Ultimately, I think you have to go where your traits are desired. Some men like skinny women - some like big women, etc. Find that place where like interests, qualities & goals are pursued.

HB & Thayfen are giving you some playful jabs tfro, but you are setting up a catch 22 with your expectations. If a brother is eliminated from your (and many other sisters) dating pool because he's blue collar, what is he supposed to do? Sit home dateless, just so he doesn't receive scorn for interracial dating? I've never dated interracially, but if that floats your boat & you're mature enough to deal with all the social implications of a long term relationship with someone outside your race - DO YOUR THING!
quote:

HB & Thayfen are giving you some playful jabs tfro, but you are setting up a catch 22 with your expectations. If a brother is eliminated from your (and many other sisters) dating pool because he's blue collar, what is he supposed to do? Sit home dateless, just so he doesn't receive scorn for interracial dating?


And I'm also saying that being blue collar doesn't necesarily tell you about what's inside that person or what they're capable of. Yes I was a janitor once. But I was bright and curious and read a lot even then. I have a Ph.D. now.

And if I dated outside my race it was in part because I had such a hard time finding a sister before I had a Ph.D.

Lighten up. Open up your eyes...Realize... Isn't that a song? Smile
We (black people) need to stop focusing on finding love "outside" and start finding love on the "inside". Our romantic lives tend to follow our personal/professional lives. How many brothas/sistas have hooked up with someone "just because" or because of "loneliness"? Now nobody should want to be with someone who is not at least working on thier potential. If your only option is to be with a janitor/waitress, pick the janitor/waitress that knows the value of a dollar, has and utilizes good judgement, displays a truly good heart and sound mind and you should be okay. If said janitor/waitress is always asking for 5 bucks every week, thats a sign right there... Big Grin (and yes I know some custodians and food preparers that have more money stashed away and more intellictual acumen than PHD's). But to not have some romantic ideal and standards is just plain foolish as well as not observing every aspect of someone. Yes, some people are diamonds in the rough just waiting to be discovered but there are also some who are just plain rough...and should be left right where they are. *Whew* I'm done now, I can finally enjoy this fish sandwich I've been drooling over.......... thanks
You guys are all completely missing the point of qty's post (and all the others posts like hers that have come before). Do none of you see the disparity between the two standards she pointed out? It doesn't strike any of you as ODD that it is fine and even considered "rational" for a Black man to want the best looking woman available ("Who wouldn't choose a video girl over a 200 lb woman?" was the gist of the quote, I believe), but a Black woman is immediately scolded (as we see from the posts immediately following qty's post) for wanting anything "too fancy." She must be open to the buck-toothed, hump-backed janitor, but it's "just common sense" for the Black man to only want the Halle Berry and Beyonce look-a-likes. All of that was lost on you all?

The point is NOT that "janitors aint shit" or however else things were apparently interpreted. It's the double standard.
I was once a janitor but am neither hump backed nor buck toothed, I don't know too many brothas that date anyone looking remotely like Halle Berry (much less Beyonce), and I don't have a problem with 200 lb chicks...Now the 300 lb chicks is another subject....

Are ya'll sure that the outbreak of brothas dating Beyonce look-alikes isn't a figment of your collective imagination? What a man lusts after and claims he wants is not necessarily what he dates or actually desires. Let's not argue because we're confusing somebody's fantasy with reality.

And even if these brothas were plentiful (which I doubt) it's not quite a double standard. An ambitious and intelligent janitor can still go far in life... if a sista weighs 400 lbs the odds are very much against her ever looking like Beyonce...
Two things:
1 - Gambit, I wasn't talking to you. Turn that frown upside down.

2 - HonestB, you're still missing it, baby. Hee hee. It is not that men are going out and dating these "perfect women," it's that it's perfectly okay for them to want that and the same is not true for us. THAT is the double standard. It works like this:

In front of a man stands Halle Berry and a random Plain Jane.

Man: I choose Halle!
Crowd Reaction: Naturally! Who wouldn't?

In front of a woman stands Denzel and a random Plain Joe.

Woman: I choose Denzel!
Crowd Reaction: That's what's wrong with you all. What makes you think you are worthy of dating a Denzel? You all are focused on the wrong things and need to be open to all types of Black men and stop trying to go for the Denzels. Why does a brotha have to have all of this stuff before you will look at him? What happened to growing with a brotha? And if Denzel cheats on you, you deserve it and I'm gonna laugh because that is what you get going after those types of desireable men.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
Two things:
2 - HonestB, you're still missing it, baby. Hee hee. It is not that men are going out and dating these "perfect women," it's that it's perfectly okay for them to want that and the same is not true for us. THAT is the double standard.


Well maybe, baby, you're right. I'm just not getting it. Personally I'd take Alfre Woodard over either Beyonce or Halle Berry. And I just learned she's married to a white guy.

Maybe it's just me. I like smart women. And I know if I require both brains and a body like Beyonce I'll be waiting forever...

And in the end we're still just arguing over people's fantasies... OK we're arguing over a fantasy double standard.

giveup You win. But it still boils down to fantasy. And the only thing important to me is reality.

Video girls? I don't have cable and haven't watched TV in over 4 years. I don't even know what the video girls look like.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
HonestB, you're still missing it, baby. Hee hee. It is not that men are going out and dating these "perfect women," it's that it's perfectly okay for them to want that and the same is not true for us. THAT is the double standard.


Frenchy, I think your the one who's missing it. The double stadard exists because men and women have different stadards. It's perfectly O.K. for men to want women that look like Halle Barry. It's perfectly O.K. for women to want men who look like Denzel Wahington. But, if that's what you want, then that's what you get. No complaining about personality issues that were not taken into considration at the outset.

The issue being driven into the dirt here is "What are you looking for?" Are you looking for a janitor or a supermodel? The answer is no... but what we are looking for could be found in either of these two places.
And I would take a nice, respectful Plain Joe over a Denzel any day of the week. But that's not the issue. It's about more than just what we are allowed to fantasize about and pursue. For women, who are already in a sexist society, it is yet another excuse for men to use to belittle, undermine, and irrationally blame us. sad
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
The double stadard exists because men and women have different stadards.


What do you mean by that?


I mean that men and women don't look for (or even at) the same things when looking at a prospective partner. Therefore, It's silly for us to judge each other based on our own (unique) standards. Most especially when it's not even our own relationship that we're talking about.

However, It just might be beneficial for us to try and understand each others standards. That might make it easier to actually find a partner.
quote:
Originally posted by nayo:
Name-calling? Darn. I especially agreed with this:
"Most of the so-called love I've seen has been a lot of infantile degradation..."

Ad nauseum. I recently had a black fellow, ask me could I find him a girlfriend. Ask me could I find HIM a girlfriend. I said my name was'nt 'Hitch'. Then, he goes on to say, "you sure got some big legs...I see those big legs everyday, and I say mmmmmmmm. Where yo man at, gurrl? Let me give you my phone number, and you tell ya girls about me. ya heah. I'm 53 years old, and I needs a woman. The woman I just broke up was to needy, to clingy. Tell ya girls about me" wth.

This on the train to work, in my suit, attache case. No, I was'nt doing the 'stuck-up' thing. Not at all, but can I just get a good morning and how are you today, and you sure look nice. Spoken to me, and not at me? And not that it matters (much) but we were the only two Black American folk on the train; and, the others were 'oyinbo'. lol! And he was loud.


oyinbo...hmm...Nayo..are you Nigerian? just curious.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
I mean that men and women don't look for (or even at) the same things when looking at a prospective partner.


What do you mean by this, specifically?


Category A: Qualities women look for in men- Confidence, Self-Control, Mystery, A Sense Of Challenge.

Category B: Qualities men look for in women- Flexability, Integrity, Loyalty, A Giving Nature.

All of these things are good qualities, but the difference lies in the priorities.

A woman will stay with a man who has all of the qualities in Category A, even if he has none of the qualities in Category B. But, if he has all of the qualities in Category B, and none of the qualities in Category A, he will find himself on the curb.

A man will stay with a woman who has all of the qualities in Category B, even if she has none of the qualities in Category A. But, if she has all of the qualities in Category A, and none of the qualities in Category B, she will find herself on the curb.

Specifically.Smile
If I may, a little about myself:...besides my humble education: I'm 5'6", weigh 147, I'm losing my hair and I wear glasses. I have been informed on many an occasion by many a Sista, that while I have a great personality"”I'm respectful, patient, loving, generous, loyal, dedicated and funny...I'm not their "cup of tea". They loved me, but could never be "in love" with me.

I understood this, kept the bitterness at bay and continue to enjoy friendships with five Sistas which has spanned these twenty-five years. I understand my looks are not my strongest attribute, and I'm good with that. I never expected a fashion model to fall for me"”but the "Plain-Janes" can picky too.

Do you want me to describe the Brothers whom they engaged in child-bearing relationships? Women can chose also"”I understand that this choice is an individual thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
And how does this Category A & B theory you have justify or explain the Double Standard that's been pointed out?

I don't see how any of that speaks to why it is okay for men to aim for the best but women must remain "realistic" with respect to dating partners.


The Double Standard only exists because of the different words being used. The different words being used are the evidence of different standards, not a double standard. If a women aims for the best, what is she aiming for specifically? Is she aiming for Denzel? Why? Is that the best? What this article was trying to point out is that, for women, finding love is about finding Category A. It's not about finding Denzel, unless Denzel fits Category A. Now, is that aiming for the best, or is it being realistic?

And when did anyone start expecting women to be realistic? Did I miss a memo? The last time I looked women started planning their weddings at about five years old, and it usually involves a knight in shinning armor astride a unicorn. What's realistic about this?

Let me try this another way. If there is a double standard, is it not imposed on women by themselves? Are women asking themselves, "is it better to be alone because I didn't get Denzel (because he's the 'best'), or should I be 'realistic' because having a relationship is more important?"

Basically, aiming for the best=being realistic. That's why there's no Double Standard.
Last edited {1}
Frenchy -

There were three posts after qty226's response before yours. Which one touted a double standard? Here's mine again:

quote:
Nobody's saying you have to date an ugly or ignorant or disrepectful blue collar brother just because he's a brother. Likewise, a brother shouldn't feel compelled to date an unattractive (to him) sister just because of her education, wealth or career. What we are saying is that a person (man or woman) not having a "professional" job, does not make them less qualified to be a good mate. A college degree is not THE gold standard for intelligence.

Ultimately, I think you have to go where your traits are desired. Some men like skinny women - some like big women, etc. Find that place where like interests, qualities & goals are pursued.

HB & Thayfen are giving you some playful jabs , but you are setting up a catch 22 with your expectations. If a brother is eliminated from your (and many other sisters) dating pool because he's blue collar, what is he supposed to do? Sit home dateless, just so he doesn't receive scorn for interracial dating? I've never dated interracially, but if that floats your boat & you're mature enough to deal with all the social implications of a long term relationship with someone outside your race - DO YOUR THING!


Where's the double standard? There was no scolding. If you set looks aside, how do you know that a blue collar or non-degreed person can't be a good mate for you? Note there have been very few discussions about people's physical preferences, outside of Rowe. We are talking about personality traits. If you know that common ratio of women to men is 10 to 1 on college campuses, isn't it apparent that every female college graduate can't have a college educated mate? Black females are more prevalent in white collar jobs as well (in relation to Black males). If those are prime criteria for choosing potential mates, you know going in you have a smaller pool to choose from.
I am apparently speaking a different language because you all are still not hearing me.

I am not talking about the merits of a blue collar man. There's nothing wrong with a janitor or whatever else. I've expressed that several times now.

Please go back and read the quotation that QTY pulled out of the article and her response. Then note your own comments in response, effectively proving exactly what both of us have been saying. Please also note the scenario that I posted.

It's acceptable for a Black man to choose a Halle Berry. That is seen as the obvious choice if given a chance (ONCE AGAIN, the quote from the article goes something like "If you put these two side by side, men naturally will go to the video girl look alike."). Why do you spend time trying to pound it into ours that we need to keep our eyes squarely on the value of the Everyman at all times? We are the ones dating the plethora of Everymen, while you cast aside the Plain Janes as too black & ugly and whatever else. We don't need to hear this. We don't need that lecture about how the college degree is not the gold standard. When you put Denzel next to the garbage man and the sista goes gaga over Denzel we run into the lecture about the merits of the garbage man and how just because he has that job doesn't mean he isn't smart and can't provide and we are shooting ourselves in the foot for not looking at the garbage man and blahblahblah. That is the constant disparity. And it's not something specific to men on this board.

I don't know a different way to keep saying this. We'll just have to remain on different planets if it's not clear at this point.
We're speaking the same langauge, you're just reading & comprehending in another one! Big Grin

Reread this portion:
quote:
Note there have been very few discussions about people's physical preferences, outside of Rowe. We are talking about personality traits.


We're not talking about men wanting Halle or women wanting Denzel. Look around at couples next time you go out - how many men are "Denzel" & how many women are "Halle"? Most of us date & marry the "everywoman" too. What many of the men here have told you is this:

We don't care about a woman's career when choosing a mate
We don't care about a woman's degrees when choosing a mate

Many of the women here insist that those two things should matter more than all the things we've (Men) said matters to us in relationships.

If what you're doing now for your relationships is working, cool. If not, do you insist on doing things the same way, expecting a different result? bang Or do you try something different? All of the embittered Black men & women need to try something different. You can be "right" or you can be happy. appl

Always with heart & concern

bow bigddouble bow
I've been monitoring this debate, and apparently, both of you are trying to convey a similar message: Be more realistic. Black women: you can't have the Denzel look-alike with a six figure salary. And Black men: You can't have the tiny-figured Halle Berry look-alike who waits on you hand and foot. So I have a question for readers. Do you all think this culture's obsession with mega super stars has interferred with everyday people's interest in the opposite sex? Perhaps our standards are not too high, but have been influenced by someone else's standards.

A quick example: While in High school, the program "Martin" had just began its first season, and somehow, our class got on the topic of the female characters ("Gina" and "Pam") being played by actresses Tisha Campbell and Tashina Arnold. One of the boys in the class raved about how "ugly" he thought the character Pam was compared to Gina. My geomtry teacher, a African-American woman, who sported a natural, told him that if you saw Pam walking down the halls of this high school, every dude in here would be after her. She said the problem is the entertainment industry inflates the viewers standards of what is beautiful.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
You guys are all completely missing the point of qty's post (and all the others posts like hers that have come before). Do none of you see the disparity between the two standards she pointed out? It doesn't strike any of you as ODD that it is fine and even considered "rational" for a Black man to want the best looking woman available ("Who wouldn't choose a video girl over a 200 lb woman?" was the gist of the quote, I believe), but a Black woman is immediately scolded (as we see from the posts immediately following qty's post) for wanting anything "too fancy." She must be open to the buck-toothed, hump-backed janitor, but it's "just common sense" for the Black man to only want the Halle Berry and Beyonce look-a-likes. All of that was lost on you all?

The point is NOT that "janitors aint shit" or however else things were apparently interpreted. It's the double standard.



Exactly !!! thanks
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
Two things:
1 - Gambit, I wasn't talking to you. Turn that frown upside down.

2 - HonestB, you're still missing it, baby. Hee hee. It is not that men are going out and dating these "perfect women," it's that it's perfectly okay for them to want that and the same is not true for us. THAT is the double standard. It works like this:

In front of a man stands Halle Berry and a random Plain Jane.

Man: I choose Halle!
Crowd Reaction: Naturally! Who wouldn't?

In front of a woman stands Denzel and a random Plain Joe.

Woman: I choose Denzel!
Crowd Reaction: That's what's wrong with you all. What makes you think you are worthy of dating a Denzel? You all are focused on the wrong things and need to be open to all types of Black men and stop trying to go for the Denzels. Why does a brotha have to have all of this stuff before you will look at him? What happened to growing with a brotha? And if Denzel cheats on you, you deserve it and I'm gonna laugh because that is what you get going after those types of desireable men.



thanks
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Do you all think this culture's obsession with mega super stars has interferred with everyday people's interest in the opposite sex? Perhaps our standards are not too high, but have been influenced by someone else's standards.


thanks

We're going back and forth 'debating' whether it is right or wrong to desire scenarios that will rarely if ever happen.

The average brotha dating Beyonce

The average sista dating Denzel

Double standard or not, these scenarios are fantasies... Media Creations.

* Dear Sistas and Brothas, let's get REAL * tfro
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
I still believe the "few good mates" argument is overblown & overhyped. People because of their preferences and flaws (recognized & unrecognized), sabotage many of their relationships. People should have:

Realistic expectations
Honest self-assessment
Objectivity in assessing a relationship
Willingness to forgive (themselves & others)
Adaptability


Too many people have rigid views of themselves, others, and relationships. Who knows, that single mom or blue collar man may surprise you!



thanks thanks
For God's Sake! Denzel and Halle are only examples. The double standard plays out in normal everyday life!

"What makes you think you deserve to date an attractive attorney?"
"That's what you get for dating a 'pretty boy'?"
"Who wouldn't choose the girl with the big butt over the brainiac? It's only natural to go after what is visually appealing!"

Etc.

This is NOT about specifically dating Denzels and Halles. This is NOT about lowering dating expectations. It's not about speicifcally dating anyone at all really. It is an observation of WHAT IS.

And I reject the idea that because these "ideal mates" are not who most of us end up with that there is no damage done. It is tremendously harmful to place these mental barriers on only women for having any sort of ambition for a mate. It's nothing more than another way to beat up on women and give men a pass. Most of us do not end up as atronauts and doctors, but we would never say it's fine to discourage kids from dreaming of that future because they must remain "in reality."

Sexism has NO defense. 99% of my grief would be relieved if men would spend as much time trying to counsel and advise each other rather than the opposite sex. IMO, 99% of men would quickly change their views if they were advising another man on the very same subject.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
"What makes you think you deserve to date an attractive attorney?"
"That's what you get for dating a 'pretty boy'?"
"Who wouldn't choose the girl with the big butt over the brainiac? It's only natural to go after what is visually appealing!"


Frenchy, I think I hear ya. But the "attractive attorney" or "doctor" and the "pretty boy" may be just other versions of "Denzel": widespread cultural ideals of what we're "supposed to want".

I don't ever hear people setting their sights for the attractive engineer or mathematician or dentist. Much less the ambitious and intelligent young janitor.

And I love Brainiacs - especially if they're cute - notice I said "cute" - not necessarily "fine"....
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
What if "the total package" is just a fantasy too?


I think we all know that the "perfect" partner doesn't exist. But there is certainly a hierarchy of mates: men or women who are more suitable or the most desireable, etc. It's that "cream of the crop" within the gender that I mean.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
I think we all know that the "perfect" partner doesn't exist. But there is certainly a hierarchy of mates: men or women who are more suitable or the most desireable, etc. It's that "cream of the crop" within the gender that I mean.


And how is that determined? And why?


thanks

You read my mind. What makes the "Doctor" or "Lawyer" the so called cream of the crop? I've dated a few of those and I know they aren't all that.

Anyway I thought the original issue was black women being bashed for wanting anything "too fancy" as opposed to the bucktoothed janitor. I think it went something like

quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
a Black woman is immediately scolded (as we see from the posts immediately following qty's post) for wanting anything "too fancy." She must be open to the buck-toothed, hump-backed janitor...


So are you saying that the "fancy" choices are confined to "pretty boys", "Lawyers", and "Doctors" and that all that's left over are "buck-toothed, hump-backed janitors"? There's nothing else?

Baby, I was the cream of the crop even when I was a young ambitious janitor Razz
Oh Lord, here we go again. I thought this was cleared up already.

quote:
What makes the "Doctor" or "Lawyer" the so called cream of the crop?


The same combination of factors that make "girls with a phat ass" the cream of the crop for men. AGAIN, this is not about these particular individual men or women and their merits. It is about the right for both genders to strive for "The (Percieved) Best."

And I NEVER said there was only the cream of the crop and everyone else was shit. In fact, I went out of my way to repeatedly point that out even though it was irrelevant to my point.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:


A quick example: While in High school, the program "Martin" had just began its first season, and somehow, our class got on the topic of the female characters ("Gina" and "Pam") being played by actresses Tisha Campbell and Tashina Arnold. One of the boys in the class raved about how "ugly" he thought the character Pam was compared to Gina. My geomtry teacher, a African-American woman, who sported a natural, told him that if you saw Pam walking down the halls of this high school, every dude in here would be after her. She said the problem is the entertainment industry inflates the viewers standards of what is beautiful.


Pam is hotter than Gina.
quote:
Originally posted by ronin10:
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:


A quick example: While in High school, the program "Martin" had just began its first season, and somehow, our class got on the topic of the female characters ("Gina" and "Pam") being played by actresses Tisha Campbell and Tashina Arnold. One of the boys in the class raved about how "ugly" he thought the character Pam was compared to Gina. My geomtry teacher, a African-American woman, who sported a natural, told him that if you saw Pam walking down the halls of this high school, every dude in here would be after her. She said the problem is the entertainment industry inflates the viewers standards of what is beautiful.


Pam is hotter than Gina.


I agree with you that Pam is hotter than Gina...at least physically hotter. The problem is that Pam is dark-skinned (not that it's anything wrong with it), Gina is lighter-skinned, and that when you usually have TWO good-looking black women together (of different complexions), they have to be competitive to a point.

Also, the darker-skinned character Pam is unfortunately casted as a "sapphire", a shrewish selfish, inconsiderate black female character.

Besides, knowing about the skin color caste system in the black community, the sapphire gets no sympathy. Thus, in a way, Pam's personality makes her "ugly."
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quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
..."what makes you think you deserve to date one of those guys" and blahblahblah.


Nobody has said that - that's what you keep projecting into this discussion. Along with insisting that men only define their ideal mates by the physical. nono Your choice of words ("cream of the crop") is also telling. But I guess I'm being sexist or just shelling out more dating advice, right? I (and the other guys) couldn't possibly have valid points - we're too busy being sexist, right? lol

Though you make it very, very hard...

Still with heart
What on Earth are you talking about? I am not only talking about what happens in this thread and on this board!! (Though, if you want to get technical, that "what makes you think you deserve that kind of man?" has DEFINTELY been trotted out on this board before.)

Please go back and read my first post in this thread. You're picking up and running with all of these side details and repeatedly skipping right over the main point. I don't give a shit what makes a particular woman the "cream of the crop" to a man. I'm only saying that there is such a thing as the "cream of the crop" and that is what I am referring to when I talk about each gender being allowed to pursue "the best" freely without being admonished to settle for something less. If it's not "the girl with the big ass" but something else instead, FINE. Who cares?!?! That's not the POINT. How many different times and ways do I have to say that?!?

Lord! You guys are making me pull my hair out! hit spank bang

Smile
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
You guys are all completely missing the point of qty's post (and all the others posts like hers that have come before). Do none of you see the disparity between the two standards she pointed out? It doesn't strike any of you as ODD that it is fine and even considered "rational" for a Black man to want the best looking woman available ("Who wouldn't choose a video girl over a 200 lb woman?" was the gist of the quote, I believe), but a Black woman is immediately scolded (as we see from the posts immediately following qty's post) for wanting anything "too fancy." She must be open to the buck-toothed, hump-backed janitor, but it's "just common sense" for the Black man to only want the Halle Berry and Beyonce look-a-likes. All of that was lost on you all?

The point is NOT that "janitors aint shit" or however else things were apparently interpreted. It's the double standard.



tfro

I think a lot of men, dont understand this.........because they simply dont want to.

Its really not that hard to understand!
*I know I'm gonna "catch it" for this, but...*

I think that by virtue of the fact that there more women than there are men, limits the choices of women severely... If a woman is then "holding out" for a "Denzel the doctor" does that really make sense??

I also think, based upon my observation - however limited it may be, that a man will date/marry a woman regardless of her station in life... she could be working on the fryer at Mickey D's, but if she's cute she has almost as good a shot at getting a mate as a sister with a phd.

Let a brother say "I'm in charge of the fries at Mickey D's" and see how far he gets - regardless of his looks!!

So I say date who you want, but realize the limitations of your situations. (just call me JESSE lol )
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
I'm only saying that there is such a thing as the "cream of the crop" and that is what I am referring to when I talk about each gender being allowed to pursue "the best" freely without being admonished to settle for something less.


You keep waffling here. Are you saying that you want to be able to fantasize about getting these men or are you honest to goodness really wanting the right to hold out for the status-symbol-trophy-husband? Fantasies are free.

And you have the right do hold out for whatever you want anyway. If that's what you're about then you just have to ignore what people say. But if what you're really saying is that this what to shoot for then I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for what I'm about to say. But the women who pine after these status-symbol-trophy-husbands-Lamborghini men (Denzel, Doctor, Lawyer types) then complain that "there are no men" when they can't find one DESERVE to be single.

I get sick of women who make like the only choices are between a doctor and a fast food worker. There are many professional men. Many men who go to college. Who are going somewhere. And who are single because they ain't no damn 6 figure earning Doctor. It's either you're earning 6 figures or you a broke nigger. It's unrealistic. Not only that but it shoves us men into rigid stereotypes and is an insult to anybody who is a STRIVER but doesn't pursue a mere handful of career paths. What about your black artists? Sculptors? Writers? Painters? Engineers? Accountants? Scholars? Dentists? Community Activists? We have some of those you know? These aren't cream of the crop? And they're deserving men.

Its unrealistic even if you were a white woman to hold out for a Doctor. It's even more unrealistic for black women given the numbers. I know I'll get hate. But dammit its true.

And you can complain about a double standard all you want but I don't hear the guys belly aching about there not being any women ... There are a ton of women. They just have awful attitudes.

Now let the hatin' begin....
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quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
I'm only saying that there is such a thing as the "cream of the crop" and that is what I am referring to when I talk about each gender being allowed to pursue "the best" freely without being admonished to settle for something less.


You keep waffling here. Are you saying that you want to be able to fantasize about getting these men or are you honest to goodness really wanting the right to hold out for the status-symbol-trophy-husband? Fantasies are free.

And you have the right do hold out for whatever you want anyway. If that's what you're about then you just have to ignore what people say. But if what you're really saying is that this what to shoot for then I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for what I'm about to say. But the women who pine after these status-symbol-trophy-husbands-Lamborghini men (Denzel, Doctor, Lawyer types) then complain that "there are no men" when they can't find one DESERVE to be single.

I get sick of women who make like the only choices are between a doctor and a fast food worker. There are many professional men. Many men who go to college. Who are going somewhere. And who are single because they ain't no damn 6 figure earning Doctor. It's either you're earning 6 figures or you a broke nigger. It's unrealistic. Not only that but it shoves us men into rigid stereotypes and is an insult to anybody who is a STRIVER but doesn't pursue a mere handful of career paths. What about your black artists? Sculptors? Writers? Painters? Engineers? Accountants? Scholars? Dentists? Community Activists? We have some of those you know? These aren't cream of the crop? And they're deserving men.

Its unrealistic even if you were a white woman to hold out for a Doctor. It's even more unrealistic for black women given the numbers. I know I'll get hate. But dammit its true.

And you can complain about a double standard all you want but I don't hear the guys belly aching about there not being any women ... There are a ton of women. They just have awful attitudes.

Now let the hatin' begin....


I still think you are missing the point.
I believe Frenchy is complaining that women get dogged for wanting a particular guy(whether it be "the cream of the crop" or not) while guys are not dogged for wanting a particular women(whether it be the "cream of the crop" or not)
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
I'm only saying that there is such a thing as the "cream of the crop" and that is what I am referring to when I talk about each gender being allowed to pursue "the best" freely without being admonished to settle for something less.


You keep waffling here. Are you saying that you want to be able to fantasize about getting these men or are you honest to goodness really wanting the right to hold out for the status-symbol-trophy-husband? Fantasies are free.

And you have the right do hold out for whatever you want anyway. If that's what you're about then you just have to ignore what people say. But if what you're really saying is that this what to shoot for then I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for what I'm about to say. But the women who pine after these status-symbol-trophy-husbands-Lamborghini men (Denzel, Doctor, Lawyer types) then complain that "there are no men" when they can't find one DESERVE to be single.

I get sick of women who make like the only choices are between a doctor and a fast food worker. There are many professional men. Many men who go to college. Who are going somewhere. And who are single because they ain't no damn 6 figure earning Doctor. It's either you're earning 6 figures or you a broke nigger. It's unrealistic. Not only that but it shoves us men into rigid stereotypes and is an insult to anybody who is a STRIVER but doesn't pursue a mere handful of career paths. What about your black artists? Sculptors? Writers? Painters? Engineers? Accountants? Scholars? Dentists? Community Activists? We have some of those you know? These aren't cream of the crop? And they're deserving men.

Its unrealistic even if you were a white woman to hold out for a Doctor. It's even more unrealistic for black women given the numbers. I know I'll get hate. But dammit its true.

And you can complain about a double standard all you want but I don't hear the guys belly aching about there not being any women ... There are a ton of women. They just have awful attitudes.

Now let the hatin' begin....



I agree with you. Some women seem to put men into two categories. This is only going to lead to women being lonley due to excessively high standards.
quote:
Originally posted by Sweetwuzzy:
I agree with you. Some women seem to put men into two categories. This is only going to lead to women being lonley due to excessively high standards.


I'm not even saying that women should "lower" their standards. Here's a list of people who probably do NOT earn 6 figures or a comparable salary

Albert Einstein
Add almost any college professor to this list -(even many at Ivy League Schools)
Most teachers/administrators in junior colleges
Teachers in elementary and secondary education
Most people in literature or the arts.
Etc. I could go on if a really tried but I have a life

But my point is not that women need to "lower" their vision. They need to broaden/expand their vision.

Denzel/Doctor/Lawyer is tunnel vision.

My guess is it's the continuation of a cultural habit that started because our access to the professions was limited. That's no longer as much the case. So this habit has become a bad habit that I believe is worsened with the influence of media.
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Folks, I'm saying that I put myself second to no man. I'm not Denzel/Doctor/Laywer. And wanting me is NOT lowering your standards.
laugh laugh
I should add that I do have the right to use the title Dr. But I'm not an MD.

I'm also saying that even when I was a 20 year old janitor, I was still the cream of the crop.

<----------- Man with a healthy ego
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Honest & AG -

The three of us have said the same thing to the ladies. No one is denying fantasy. But the reality is that everyone can't be a high social status, high income, buff, male idol. Please substitute the female analogues for those of you that still haven't realized I'm speaking about men & women. This means, somebody has to date & marry the "every Jane/Joes". Men have an easier time, IMO, accepting this fact.

I'm glad my mom wasn't such an elitest. Otherwise, I might not be here! Big Grin Maybe I'm an exception, but my non-Denzel, non high-status dad did a HELL of a job as a father (and my Mom's pretty happy too!).

Hopefully, the ladies will actually read what you guys said.

From one brother to another-

appl tfro appl
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
offPlease, can a woman be a librarian, a "brainiac" and be hot AT THE SAME TIME?!!



Are you saying.......that you've never seen this before?


Yes, I've seen this. The thing is that usually those women don't stay single forever. If any man, that has any common sense and intelligence meets her, he better get a ring and take her to the nearest preacher. Well, that's what I'm gonna do if I see her.

But society sometimes tells us that the prettier a beautiful woman, the more sordid her personality is (e.g. Toni Childs from "Girlfriends".)

Many men, as much as we like to look at and pursue pretty women, are intimidated by them, because they think somebody that hot MUST be dating somebody. And if I find her, I'll be jumping for joy and doing more backflips than Dominique Dawes and Mary Lou Retton combined.
quote:
Originally posted by AudioGuy:
*I know I'm gonna "catch it" for this, but...*

I think that by virtue of the fact that there more women than there are men, limits the choices of women severely... If a woman is then "holding out" for a "Denzel the doctor" does that really make sense??


This is NOT the point, AG. No one is encouraging women to date only a Denzel. No one is saying Denzels are the only quality men. No one is saying that we want the right to hold out for a Denzel. WOMEN SHOULD HAVE THE OPTION OF STRIVING FOR A "DENZEL" WITHOUT HEARING A BUNCH OF FRIGGIN LIP ABOUT HOW WE NEED TO REFOCUS/REVISE/RETHINK BECAUSE WE DON'T DESERVE IT OR BECAUSE WE'RE NOT GIVING THE "LOWER-RUNG" OF BROTHAS A CHANCE OR WHATEVER OTHER REASON. The same way that men can strive for the prettiest available woman (or whatever it is that ddouble goes for since he takes offense to the idea that men put looks first). Let us want whatever the Hell it is we want! Sure, we may end up with something else when all is said and done, but this rush by Black men to immediately shoot down any of the Black woman's romantic/relationship aspirations is ridiculously overdone! Please phrase that in a way your brothers will understand because they are not trying to hear it coming from me.

quote:
I also think, based upon my observation - however limited it may be, that a man will date/marry a woman regardless of her station in life... she could be working on the fryer at Mickey D's, but if she's cute she has almost as good a shot at getting a mate as a sister with a phd.


Funny that ddouble would give your quote applause when he thinks this idea is off the mark.

quote:
Let a brother say "I'm in charge of the fries at Mickey D's" and see how far he gets - regardless of his looks!!


Why should we reduce ourselves down to taking up with whoever is cute?? We expect more because we're smarter. And because we have more responsibilities. Smile

quote:
So I say date who you want, but realize the limitations of your situations. (just call me JESSE lol )


Why do men feel compelled to even contribute this? Do you think there is a Black woman alive who does not "realize the limitations" of her situation? Because we talk about the limitations of our situation on quite a regular basis. Even when people swear blind that there are no limitations to our damn situation and it's all a myth, but that's another thread. Argh!
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
You keep waffling here.


I'm not waffling. I've been saying the same thing repeatedly. You are just not trying to read what is written.

quote:
Are you saying that you want to be able to fantasize about getting these men or are you honest to goodness really wanting the right to hold out for the status-symbol-trophy-husband?


Neither. *Sigh* Black women deserve to be able to consider the "cream of the crop" as a viable dating and marriage option without being lectured about lowering standards/"being more realistic"/etc.

I've broken it down into scenarios before, but apparently no one reads them or you can't see past the word "Denzel" without going off on a tangent. Last time.

Scenario A
Man: I want to date a woman who's pretty and has a six-figure job.
Society: Go head!

Scenario B
Woman: I want to date a man who's handsome and has a six-figure job.
Society: You're expecting too damn much! What's wrong with dating a janitor or a brotha who isn't cute? That's why you all can't find anybody!

Do you see the difference?? Do you see why that would bother a woman??

quote:
But the women who pine after these status-symbol-trophy-husbands-Lamborghini men (Denzel, Doctor, Lawyer types) then complain that "there are no men" when they can't find one DESERVE to be single.


Do you see how remarks like this fit exactly into the scenario above??

quote:
I get sick of women who make like the only choices are between a doctor and a fast food worker.


Totally irrelevant and for the umpteenth time, NO ONE has suggested that and I've actually specifically addressed that several times now. So put down your violin and cut the sob story.

quote:
And you can complain about a double standard all you want but I don't hear the guys belly aching about there not being any women ... There are a ton of women. They just have awful attitudes.


You don't here men complaining (actually you do, but whatever) about numbers because the numbers are on their side. There are more avialble Black women than there are available Black men. What in the Hell would you have to complain about numbers-wise?!? I'm not even gonna touch that last part.
Numbers don't mean a thing to me when I'm single as hell... as evidenced by the fact that I'm here typing this rather than doing something else. Numbers mean nada.

quote:

Scenario A
Man: I want to date a woman who's pretty and has a six-figure job.
Society: Go head!


Whatever...I've never heard this coming from anywhere... I don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.

quote:

But the women who pine after these status-symbol-trophy-husbands-Lamborghini men (Denzel, Doctor, Lawyer types) then complain that "there are no men" when they can't find one DESERVE to be single.


And stand by this statement. Because if you actually read what I wrote NO it doesn't fit the scenario you gave.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I'm not even saying that women should "lower" their standards.


Then what are you doing in this thread? The standards are what they are. The "cream" is what it is. Why do you give a shit what we consider the best to be unless you want us to change it BY LOWERING IT TO INCLUDE YOU AND YOUR PEERS? Isn't that your gripe? The cut-off is too high for your liking? Why should women give a shit what is to your liking with respect to the mates we choose??

See my point?

quote:
But my point is not that women need to "lower" their vision. They need to broaden/expand their vision.


That is bullshit semantics. There IS a hierarchy. The top is the top. PERIOD. Men put women in a hierarchy as well. Don't come encouraging women to "broaden" jack shit. We already do. We make a whole lot of compromises because of the plethora of men who are not about SHIT who are circulating in the dating pool. We make the MOST compromises when it comes to dating, so men need to go kick rocks somewhere before they start doling out "advice." We would not be in this piss-poor situation if it wasn't for the failings of Black men. Ugh.
Here's a list of people who probably do NOT earn 6 figures or a comparable salary

Albert Einstein
Add almost any college professor to this list -(even many at Ivy League Schools)
Most teachers/administrators in junior colleges
Teachers in elementary and secondary education
Most people in literature or the arts.
Etc. I could go on if a really tried but I have a life

But my point is not that women need to "lower" their vision. They need to broaden/expand their vision.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
Honest & AG -

The three of us have said the same thing to the ladies.


And the 3 of you are completely missing the point, as has been pointed out to all of you repeatedly by several different people, so I don't know what exactly you're patting yourselves on the back for.

quote:
No one is denying fantasy. But the reality is that everyone can't be a high social status, high income, buff, male idol.


Of course not! Otherwise the high social status, high income, buff male idol wouldn't be so valuable!! The reality is that women should be able to voice wanting one of these men without you and the rest of society coming in to talk us out of it... the same way that you can want a high social status, high income, sexy female idol and the world lets you "do you."

If we were all holding out for the cream, none of us would ever get married. At this point, Black women are not even holding out for the possibility of finding someone in the middle. We are reduced down to dating the damn slime just so we're not alone for the rest of our lives. And you all have a damn nerve to come and give advice about "being more realistic." It's like it's not okay for a Black woman to have ANY damn criteria without being shot down for "wanting too much."

White Men, Here I come!!
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
That's what I mean. With you it's either cream or slime.


"If we were all holding out for the cream, none of us would ever get married. At this point, Black women are not even holding out for the possibility of finding someone in the middle. We are reduced down to dating the damn slime just so we're not alone for the rest of our lives." (posted by Frenchy at 6:17PM)

Like I said, you aren't reading shit.

quote:
The world is not throwing gorgeous high earning women at me.

SO? I never said it was. Confused

quote:
Within the past year, I - a Doctor - dated a woman with only a high school diploma who dumped me for her convicted felon ex

That's unfortunate and deep, deep, deeeeeep underneath the disdain I feel for you right now, I am genuinely sorry to hear that. Razz But what does that have to do with the your point? It seems that she did exactly what you'd have all of us do: stop paying attention to the "cream of the crop" and go for other brothers. Seems her standards were quite broad, just as you advised. ohsnap
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:

quote:
The world is not throwing gorgeous high earning women at me.

SO? I never said it was. Confused


Remember this???:
quote:

...the same way that you can want a high social status, high income, sexy female idol and the world lets you "do you."


Frenchy, you don't read your own damned posts.

quote:

quote:
Within the past year, I - a Doctor - dated a woman with only a high school diploma who dumped me for her convicted felon ex

That's unfortunate and deep, deep, deeeeeep underneath the disdain I feel for you right now, I am genuinely sorry to hear that.... It seems that she did exactly what you'd have all of us do: stop paying attention to the "cream of the crop" and go for other brothers. Seems her standards were quite broad, just as you advised. ohsnap


OK. Now're you're putting college professors and artists on the same level as ex-cons.

I won't have this discussion with you anymore because I see how * twisted * you are upstairs and I might have to start throwing around a word that rhymes with "itch".

giveup

You win. I do not want to discuss this anymore.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:

quote:
The world is not throwing gorgeous high earning women at me.

SO? I never said it was. Confused


Remember this???:
quote:

...the same way that you can want a high social status, high income, sexy female idol and the world lets you "do you."


Frenchy, you don't read your own damned posts.


Man, you have GOT to be kidding me. The world lets you (you meaning men in general) WANT that type of woman without reprocussions. I didn't say that's what you actually GET!

quote:

quote:
Within the past year, I - a Doctor - dated a woman with only a high school diploma who dumped me for her convicted felon ex

That's unfortunate and deep, deep, deeeeeep underneath the disdain I feel for you right now, I am genuinely sorry to hear that.... It seems that she did exactly what you'd have all of us do: stop paying attention to the "cream of the crop" and go for other brothers. Seems her standards were quite broad, just as you advised. ohsnap


OK. Now're you're putting college professors and artists on the same level as ex-cons.[/quote]

YOU are the one who has been advocating that women "broaden" their idea of what the cream of the crop is and that we not go specifically for the man who makes the money or has the education. YOU are the one who took offense to the very idea that there even WAS a "cream of the crop." But I see when it involves you specifically, suddenly you have no problem with the "elitism" you derided.

quote:
I won't have this discussion with you anymore because I see how * twisted * you are upstairs and I might have to start throwing around a word that rhymes with "itch".


Give me a fucking break.

quote:
You win. I do not want to discuss this anymore.

That's cool with me.
I gave you a whole fucking list of educated professional men and none of them made the mark.

quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
What about your black artists? Sculptors? Writers? Painters? Engineers? Accountants? Scholars? Dentists? Community Activists? We have some of those you know? These aren't cream of the crop? And they're deserving men.
quote:
What about your black artists? Sculptors? Writers? Painters? Scholars? Community Activists? These aren't cream of the crop? And they're deserving men.


HB... for a lot of women (me included) these men are the cream of the crop! Dream man/men, in fact. eyes

Point is, whether they are doctors or artists, a lot of time the booty 'talks' to those men way before (or instead of) any of those similar talents in women. Flip the script, and ask yourself are any men actively seeking the same - women writers, artists, painters, etc, or do they expect booty + beauty + brain + bank balance ALL-in-one?
.
According to you, you're dating down to consider the men below

quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Here's a list of people who probably do NOT earn 6 figures or a comparable salary

Albert Einstein
Add almost any college professor to this list -(even many at Ivy League Schools)
Most teachers/administrators in junior colleges
Teachers in elementary and secondary education
Most people in literature or the arts.
Etc. I could go on if a really tried but I have a life

But my point is not that women need to "lower" their vision. They need to broaden/expand their vision.
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:

Point is, whether they are doctors or artists, a lot of time the booty 'talks' to those men way before (or instead of) those similar talents and in women. Flip the script, and ask yourself are any men actively seeking the same - women writers, artists, painters etc.


HELL. I AM. At least a woman with a mind. Someone reasonably attractive - not gorgeous or even fine - but most importantly someone that I can share with. I'm seeking a woman with a brain. Yes I am.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:

Point is, whether they are doctors or artists, a lot of time the booty 'talks' to those men way before (or instead of) those similar talents and in women. Flip the script, and ask yourself are any men actively seeking the same - women writers, artists, painters etc.


HELL. I AM. At least a woman with a mind. Someone reasonably attractive - not gorgeous or even fine - but most importsantly someone that I can share with. I'm seeking a woman with a brain. Yes I am


well big Up Ta Ya... coz that's the first freakin time I've ever heard a guy say that OUT LOUD! appl
If you want that, you'll find it. tfro
quote:
Originally posted by AudioGuy:
I also think, based upon my observation - however limited it may be, that a man will date/marry a woman regardless of her station in life... she could be working on the fryer at Mickey D's, but if she's cute she has almost as good a shot at getting a mate as a sister with a phd.

Let a brother say "I'm in charge of the fries at Mickey D's" and see how far he gets - regardless of his looks!!



bow

I can't add anymore to this argument, but I think this should be repeated as many times as necessary.
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
quote:
What about your black artists? Sculptors? Writers? Painters? Scholars? Community Activists? These aren't cream of the crop? And they're deserving men.


HB... for a lot of women (me included) these men are the cream of the crop! Dream man/men, in fact. eyes


eyes kiss eyes kiss

This is why guys like me wind up with white women.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by AudioGuy:
I also think, based upon my observation - however limited it may be, that a man will date/marry a woman regardless of her station in life... she could be working on the fryer at Mickey D's, but if she's cute she has almost as good a shot at getting a mate as a sister with a phd.

Let a brother say "I'm in charge of the fries at Mickey D's" and see how far he gets - regardless of his looks!!



bow

I can't add anymore to this argument, but I think this should be repeated as many times as necessary.


isn't this saying let's ditch classism, but it's OK to discriminate on looks? Like I said... for some men the booty calls before anything else ! And it could be argued that it implies... who gives a fck about her brain as long as she's a good fck. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
quote:
What about your black artists? Sculptors? Writers? Painters? Scholars? Community Activists? These aren't cream of the crop? And they're deserving men.


HB... for a lot of women (me included) these men are the cream of the crop! Dream man/men, in fact. eyes

Point is, whether they are doctors or artists, a lot of time the booty 'talks' to those men way before (or instead of) any of those similar talents in women.


AG, these are not talents, they're careers or occupations, or callings. That's the giant problem me and the other guys on this thread are having with this perception of a double standard. Women are looking for the different occupations listed throughout this thread. Their not looking for talent. But as I and others have said before, If that's what you want then that's what you get.


quote:
Flip the script, and ask yourself are any men actively seeking the same - women writers, artists, painters, etc,


No, men and women are not seeking the same thing! That's why this whole idea of a double standard is silly.


quote:
or do they expect booty + beauty + brain + bank balance ALL-in-one?


A lot of men are more into 'T' than 'A' + beauty is entirely subjective + there are many stupid men who can appreciate a stupid woman + I've never in my life met a man who cared in the slightest how much money a woman made.
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quote:
AG, these are not talents, they're careers or occupations, or callings. That's the giant problem me and the other guys on this thread are having with this perception of a double standard. Women are looking for the different occupations listed throughout this thread. Their not looking for talent. But as I and others have said before, If that's what you want then that's what you get.


lol you call the arts careers? A 'career' in the arts is more like unemployment! They are mind-sets and mindspaces not merely careers or occupations. Thanks for agreeing however that men aren't looking for cerebral talent more external 'talent'.
NOT ALL women are looking for occupations, but companions. Not all men are looking for booty uber alles, but a I'd say a heck of a lot are.

So... what are you looking for if not talent or a brain.... state your case.
.
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
NOT ALL women are looking for occupations, but companions.


We're all looking for companions. The disagreement here is how those potential companions are ranked and chosen.


quote:
Not all men are looking for booty uber alles, but a I'd say a heck of a lot are.


Why? Because we look at pictures of supermodels in g-strings?


quote:
So... what are you looking for if not talent or a brain.... state your case.
.


I already posted what men are looking for, but I'll sum it up: Flexability, Integrity, Loyalty, and a Giving Nature.

All other considerations are subjective and ultimately unimportant. But these four criteria a required for a man's long term health and happiness.

You'll notice that there is no mention of "brains, or beauty, or booty, or bank accounts".
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:

Actually AG, if she's got no brain then she can't be a good f*ck. laugh


good for you waving your sexist BS flag! that's a sicko comment if ever I heard one. hit


There is nothing sick or sexist about that comment. My experience is that good sex requires a certain amount of mental stimulation. However, that's off.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by AudioGuy:
I also think, based upon my observation - however limited it may be, that a man will date/marry a woman regardless of her station in life... she could be working on the fryer at Mickey D's, but if she's cute she has almost as good a shot at getting a mate as a sister with a phd.

Let a brother say "I'm in charge of the fries at Mickey D's" and see how far he gets - regardless of his looks!!



bow

I can't add anymore to this argument, but I think this should be repeated as many times as necessary.



DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!!
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:

Actually AG, if she's got no brain then she can't be a good f*ck.


Mea culpa DAMMIT!!
I was rushing out to Pilates and I thought it read a brain. Puts a different spin on things don't you agree.

quote:

I already posted what men are looking for, but I'll sum it up: Flexability, Integrity, Loyalty, and a Giving Nature.

I asked your criteria, not a generic 'men's' criteria.

quote:
All other considerations are subjective and ultimately unimportant.

huh? not convinced.

quote:
You'll notice that there is no mention of "brains, or beauty, or booty, or bank accounts".

guilty by omission laugh
.
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:

Actually AG, if she's got no brain then she can't be a good f*ck.


Mea culpa DAMMIT!!
I was rushing out to Pilates and I thought it read a brain. Puts a different spin on things don't you agree.


Apology accepted. Wink bsm


quote:
I asked your criteria, not a generic 'men's' criteria.


Same/same. These are my criteria. I think you'll find most men are the same in this regard. We are men, after all.



quote:
quote:
All other considerations are subjective and ultimately unimportant.

huh? not convinced.


quote:
You'll notice that there is no mention of "brains, or beauty, or booty, or bank accounts".

quote:
guilty by omission laugh
.



Sigh... giveup... kiss... tfro
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
This is NOT the point, AG. No one is encouraging women to date only a Denzel. No one is saying Denzels are the only quality men. No one is saying that we want the right to hold out for a Denzel. WOMEN SHOULD HAVE THE OPTION OF STRIVING FOR A "DENZEL" WITHOUT HEARING A BUNCH OF FRIGGIN LIP ABOUT HOW WE NEED TO REFOCUS/REVISE/RETHINK BECAUSE WE DON'T DESERVE IT OR BECAUSE WE'RE NOT GIVING THE "LOWER-RUNG" OF BROTHAS A CHANCE OR WHATEVER OTHER REASON. The same way that men can strive for the prettiest available woman...
We men strive for the woman who is the prettiest available... again, regardless of her station in life... Women, on the other hand, strive for the prettiest available and the mercedes...
quote:
Let us want whatever the Hell it is we want! Sure, we may end up with something else when all is said and done, but this rush by Black men to immediately shoot down any of the Black woman's romantic/relationship aspirations...
Frenchy... back away from the computer, these are just opinions - nobdy is claiming to be Dr. Phil here.
quote:
Why should we reduce ourselves down to taking up with whoever is cute?? We expect more because we're smarter. And because we have more responsibilities.
It is not a reduction!!

quote:
Why do men feel compelled to even contribute this?
I can't speak for anybody anybody else, but I contribute to this because it is a discussion forum.
quote:
Do you think there is a Black woman alive who does not "realize the limitations" of her situation?
Quite obviously, yes.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
What about your black artists? Sculptors? Writers? Painters? Engineers? Accountants? Scholars? Dentists? Community Activists? We have some of those you know? These aren't cream of the crop? And they're deserving men.


Have Black Women Gotten Out Of The Black Man's Reach?

Brother Honestbrother, Frenchy's argument is that whatever a woman's idea of a best pick is, she should be able to pursue such a man, if she so chooses. Whether her idea of a best pick is Denzel or Mr. T--that is her business. Women are not children that require special guidance or direction. Women are grown adults just as men are adults, responsible for making their own decisions.

Also, another explanation for why more women are demanding the right to be selective is that, traditionally, women didn't enjoy as much "independence" and "freedom" as they do today. Both men and women must accept, however, that times have dramatically changed. A woman no longer has to sit around and wait on whoever comes along that is willing to marry and create a life for her. Women can now develop standards and criteria as to what "types" of men they will accept and won't accept. And though some men will never admit it, this reality causes them great anxiety. They worry that women, particularly "super educated" Black women, are becoming too judgemental and unwilling to view the average Joe as acceptable partners.
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You are funny Ms. Rowe! You have attempted to guide & instruct the men here regarding our choices. You have attempted to tell us what we have to do be acceptable mates (more guiding!). Then you stop it off by posting:

quote:
...she should be able to pursue such a man if she so chooses, whether that be a Denzel or whomever--that is her business. Women are not children that require guidance or direction. Women are grown adults just as men are adults, responsible for making their own decisions.

Pot. Kettle. Black. lol
We understand the argument, but like I mentioned a few pages back, it sets up a catch-22. Develop whatever criteria you like, but don't blame us for the results of setting your criteria. Judging by some of the threads here, we are being convicted with flimsy evidence! laugh Does my friend at the Ford plant get no love? Do you even listen to him long enough to know he's a poet, mentor, and entrepreneur? That's a real brother I know, ready to get married & start a family. But because he's not in the "ideal package" today, he's still single. No lady here has explained (and the question has been asked multiple times, across multiple threads!) what does career choice or education have to do with being an ideal mate. Is a brother ignorant if he does not have a degree? Is a brother not worthwhile without a high-status career? How do know that the "Average Joe" doesn't have the core values & personality traits to make you happy?

P.S. Substance is more difficult to find in a mate, whether you're a man or woman. HonestBrother, relax. Sooner or later, some of the ladies will realize that you (and brothers like you) are keepers. Unfortunately, some of them will realize it right around the time you are no longer available! tfro Keep ya' head up!
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Have Black Women Gotten Out Of The Black Man's Reach?

Brother Honestbrother, Frenchy's argument is that whatever a woman's idea of a best pick is, she should be able to pursue such a man, if she so chooses. Whether her idea of a best pick is Denzel or Mr. T--that is her business. Women are not children that require special guidance or direction. Women are grown adults just as men are adults, responsible for making their own decisions.


Rowe, Frenchy is a grown adult who didn't say any of this. So why put words into her mouth? Second, hasn't someone been trying to instruct other people on what female beauty is?

We men contribute to the discussion because we're the ones who get acid stomach listening to the NEVER ENDING COMPLAINTS FROM BLACK WOMEN about how there are no men.
On that subject, didn't I just read a post in A Sista's Spot explaining that black men who desire white women do so because they despise black beauty?

As much as I want to be Afrocentric and agree wholeheartedly with the article, I have to say that at least some of us are with white women because we can't find black beauty.

My brother for example who is only an inch shorter than me and I'm 5'9" got tired of black women telling him he was too short. So he dates Asian women. They don't expect men to be taller than 6 feet.

YES. Date whoever you want. But you Sistas don't seem to realize that we as a group are on the verge of a severe crisis. Ya'll need to stop the belly aching and the nit-picking. It really is excessive. For real.

Yes men too can have unrealistic expectations of women. But you don't CONSTANTLY read and hear about them griping because they can't find big booty or whatever the crap it is.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
off Do you find it funny that it's usually a sister 5'5" and under that wants a 6 foot+ brother? Even with the tallest heels, they'll still be a few inches shorter! laugh Maybe they're hoping the tall brother's genes will offset their shorty genes when it's time to have children... lol

Night, night all hat


YES! If you read the personals ads online, you see 5'2" women asserting their right to a 6' tall man or taller. This is common.

Ladies, the nitpicking has to stop. It's becoming absurd. lol
I just dont get it.......

HB........Your brother date asians, because hes 5'8, and cant find a black beauty, that likes men that are 5'8? lol

Ok....sorry for laughing!!!!

Im realizing that brothers are the ones with the issues. Like i mentioned before....

"Shes too dark, too fat, too skinny, nappy hair"

We are not on a verge of a severe crisis......because a lot of 'these' same black women have, decided to do other things. We are simply following your lead.

You are not going to settle.....and neither are we.
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
I just dont get it.......

HB........Your brother date asians, because hes 5'8, and cant find a black beauty, that likes men that are 5'8? lol

Ok....sorry for laughing!!!!

Im realizing that brothers are the ones with the issues. Like i mentioned before....

"Shes too dark, too fat, too skinny, nappy hair"



Did any God damned body say anything like that? Did you hear me say anything like that?????

You sisters are just committed to believing that you're the ONLY victims among us.

NOOOOOOOO, It can NEVER EVER EVER be the case that a black woman makes a f*cked up decision. You give examples and people come rushing out of the woodwork to rationalize stupid behavior.

You all LECTURE US on what we should find beautiful. And I was even open to that. Then you can't take a lecture yourselves.

That's alright. I'm DONE. Pass my white woman.

Ya'll are so deaf, hardheaded, and insensitive when it comes to someone else's feelings....
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
I just dont get it.......

HB........Your brother date asians, because hes 5'8, and cant find a black beauty, that likes men that are 5'8? lol


For your information. That's true. And it's not funny. IT IS NOT FUNNY. It doesn't matter that there's a black woman out there who might like him. If you get stiffed enough times you give up.

MEN HAVE FUCKING FEELINGS TOO
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
I just dont get it.......

HB........Your brother date asians, because hes 5'8, and cant find a black beauty, that likes men that are 5'8? lol


For your information. That's true. And it's not funny. IT IS NOT FUNNY. It doesn't matter that there's a black woman out there who might like him. If you get stiffed enough times you give up.

MEN HAVE FUCKING FEELINGS TOO




So we all get stiffed...........i get stiffed because im dark skinned, but im told to settle, and grab a janitor.

Your brother gets stiffed because of his height.......and he moves on to asian women. (knowing that there are tons of black women.....that could careless about his height.............but hes looking for a black beauty, therefore he will never settle).

As the article brought out.....YOU men over look the average sista, because of her weight, etc.........and then want to complain.

But black women, have to settle.

HB i know men have feelings, but i personally feel that men can have their pick, there are tons of women out here.

You men just keep picking the same women.....over and over again. (looking for that black beauty)

Women have feelings as well, and to tell me to find a janitor, just to have a man......is just not fair.


Ohh and one more thing.........im 5'8, without heels. I was willing to date a man that was 5'6, but things didnt work out.

So yes........there are times, when i over look certain things.........but dont tell me that my future is dim, because i wont pick a janitor.
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
You are not going to settle.....and neither are we.


You don't want to "settle" for
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
What about your black artists? Sculptors? Writers? Painters? Engineers? Accountants? Scholars? Dentists? Community Activists? We have some of those you know? These aren't cream of the crop? And they're deserving men.


or for
quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Here's a list of people who probably do NOT earn 6 figures or a comparable salary

Albert Einstein
Add almost any college professor to this list -(even many at Ivy League Schools)
Most teachers/administrators in junior colleges
Teachers in elementary and secondary education
Most people in literature or the arts.
Etc. I could go on if a really tried but I have a life

But my point is not that women need to "lower" their vision. They need to broaden/expand their vision.


????????????????????

Fine. Then don't "settle". Oh I forgot Frenchy's wisdom:

quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
The standards are what they are. The "cream" is what it is. Why do you give a shit what we consider the best to be unless you want us to change it BY LOWERING IT TO INCLUDE YOU AND YOUR PEERS? Isn't that your gripe? The cut-off is too high for your liking? Why should women give a shit what is to your liking with respect to the mates we choose??


OK. I've had enough black woman AAA (Awful Ass Attitude) to last a lifetime. Ya'll can get the f*ck on and explore your options.

Don't settle.

giveup
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
because i wont pick a janitor.


HOW MUCH TIME DID I JUST SPEND DISCUSSING OPTIONS BESIDES JANITORS?

qty226, you don't know me personally, who I've chosen to date. My personal history might surprise you. I resent being lumped in with "YOU MEN" and being told about who I've rejected and why. Because you don't know.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
because i wont pick a janitor.


HOW MUCH TIME DID I JUST SPEND DISCUSSING OPTIONS BESIDES JANITORS?

qty226, you don't know me personally, who I've chosen to date. My personal history might surprise you. I resent being lumped in with "YOU MEN" and being told about who I've rejected and why. Because you don't know.



Damn HB........i was using a janitor, as a point of reference.

Im going to law school.....that doesnt mean, im looking to marry/date a doctor, lawyer etc.............i do know that there are tons of decent black men, in other professions. But let that be my choice.......

To tell a black woman, that she should only EXPECT, this or that, because we cant do any better.....is disheartening.

I didnt say YOU said anything.........

Im not trying to lump you with other men.......im just trying to express myself, and i dont want you to take this personally....

OK?
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
No lady here has explained (and the question has been asked multiple times, across multiple threads!) what does career choice or education have to do with being an ideal mate. Is a brother ignorant if he does not have a degree? Is a brother not worthwhile without a high-status career? How do know that the "Average Joe" doesn't have the core values & personality traits to make you happy?



I don't think they can answer those questions without sounding like a golddigger. I think what the women here are missing from the man's posting is the women are unwilling to 'grow with a brother'. That's why you see so many Black men in the military ranks [...among the most underpaid citizens in our society] married to other races. Those brides are willing to go up the 'rough side of the mountain' with a brother. ...that says alot about their character.
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
That's why you see so many Black men in the military ranks [...among the most underpaid citizens in our society] married to other races. Those brides are willing to go up the 'rough side of the mountain' with a brother. ...that says alot about their character.




Men in the military, have the highest infidelity rates!

*keep shooting yourself in the foot*


Whatever.....im done with this!! Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
That's why you see so many Black men in the military ranks [...among the most underpaid citizens in our society] married to other races. Those brides are willing to go up the 'rough side of the mountain' with a brother. ...that says alot about their character.




Men in the military, have the highest infidelity rates!

*keep shooting yourself in the foot*


Whatever.....im done with this!! Big Grin


where is the proof? Confused

is the rate higher than Professional athletes? Are Black women willing to be married toa cheater if the money is right? I thought there was a man shortage? are you sure this isn't gold digging??
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quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:

I don't think they can answer those questions without sounding like a golddigger. I think what the women here are missing from the man's posting is the women are unwilling to 'grow with a brother'. ... Those brides are willing to go up the 'rough side of the mountain' with a brother. ...that says alot about their character.


DING, DING, DING - We have another winner. I've expressed this in other threads. Everybody can't get the instant dream life (add perfect man/woman & stir Big Grin). Yes, it happens, but it's not the norm. Did anybody really read that Ruby Dee quote:

quote:
Ruby: "How to ride the rough waves in a relation long enough for the waters to get calm? When does it sink in that overcoming difficult times gets easier with practice? How do you drag some of the good feelings, good times vibrations into the stormy places? To love someone long and deep is a "consummation devoutly to be wished"!... It is day by day, one step at a time. It may not mean two bathrooms, but just some space, some privacy, some area to be alone. ...Unlike the wedding event, that takes place in a day, marriage is a long process that goes on at some level every day for the rest of your life....We have to learn how to live together... I thought I loved you, Ossie, when we got married, but as I see now, I was only in the kindergarten of the proposition. To arrive at love is like working on a double doctorate in the subject of Life." Source: joint biography, pages 430-431

Ruby: "It takes a long time to really be married. One marries many times at many levels within that marriage. If you have more marriages than you have divorces within the marriage, you're lucky and you stick it out." Source: First UU Church of Wausau

Ruby: "A trustworthy marriage has weathered temptation and anger and jealousy, resentment, self-righteousness and a little bit of selfishness. When you get over and get through that, then maybe you can see the light to love." Source: Ossie and Ruby: Is This the Love Affair of the Century? Ebony, 2/99


To me, it's about knowing that things will never be perfect. It's about finding someone you're willing to love & argue with. It's about allowing yourself & your partner to evolve. It's not about picking a ready made package off the shelf. Thanks again for those quotes HB!

I've seen qty226 say that she would like to find a serious partner, even while pursuing a law degree. That man will have to compromise, sacrifice, and grow with her if they are to have long-term success. Perhaps that blue collar man today is the Ph.D tomorrow like HonestBrother. He needs someone willing to grow with him too!

I know it's tough HB - you raise sincere, valid points, only to have them discarded or ignored because you're a man. Stiffen that chin like me & Raheem! tfro

P.S. qty226 - you might really need to leave Tampa! I know plenty of young brothers that would dig a sister like you. Sounds like your environment has you jaded... Frown

P.P.S. I think sometimes women do forget men have feelings as well. If you're too sensitive, you're soft or a punk (Even though sensitivity is supposed to be in lol). Couple that with the tendency of some women to always push the envelope of what they will say to a man and you have the tension present in this thread.
Lawd oh Lawd!

People ask me why I don't display much (if any) emotion when I'm in relationships and this thread is why. lol

Rationality folks, rationality. No one (well most no ones) wants someone they "have to carry". Thats a given. If you want a Denzel/Halle, go for it. But if Denzel/Halle don't want you back, suck it up and move on (or keep trying and get your heart broke again). Same goes for the average brother/sister. But one thing I've learned is this. Nothing will change. We are too set in our ways. If you see that man/woman with someone of another race, LET THAT SHIT GO!I dont have the time nor the energy to worry about someone I'm NOT FUCKING!If God/fate/karma/Shiva, determines you are going to be alone, you're going to be alone. Screw swimming against the tide. Shit, after all the battles about who's right, who's wrong, who should be with whom, we should'nt "be" with anybody. Relationships suck and mankind in general needs to die off and some other form of life take over.

*To the world....Yeah the old "heartless, emotionless" Gambit is back and this time I'm fucking staying. I don't want and don't need emotions clouding any future relationship I might get into. Fuck love, give me logic*

I'm out.....................
You Sistas want to be The Mothers of Civilization? Well it takes more than Denzels and Doctors to have civilization. It takes:

black artists
Sculptors
Writers
Painters
CONSTRUCTION WORKERS
Engineers
Accountants
Scholars
Dentists
Community Activists
Albert Einsteins
college professors
JANITORS
SOCIAL WORKERS
teachers/administrators in junior colleges
Teachers in elementary and secondary education
people in literature and the arts
Etc. Etc.

to have a civilization.
I.e., PUT UP OR SHUT UP!
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quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
That's alright. I'm DONE. Pass my white woman.


Don't run in that direction too fast HB. You'll get this same kind of crap from white women. Trust me! Big Grin From the lightest vanilla to the darkest chocolate, they're still women. They'll always be women, just like we'll always be men.

I'm guessing the answer is to de-code all of this language. But, no matter how many times I read back over this thread, I just can't pinpoint the moment when we all stopped speaking and hearing English. But one thing is certain. When ever that was, that's when it went from being a conversation to being a vendetta. We've been beating on each other ever since to no avail.

Maybe it's time to call a truce...
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
That's alright. I'm DONE. Pass my white woman.


Don't run in that direction too fast HB. You'll get this same kind of crap from white women. Trust me! Big Grin From the lightest vanilla to the darkest chocolate, they're still women. They'll always be women, just like we'll always be men.


As someone who has dated on both sides of the racial fence, I'll be the judge of where it's best to take my chances Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by xxGAMBITxx:
*To the world....Yeah the old "heartless, emotionless" Gambit is back and this time I'm fucking staying. I don't want and don't need emotions clouding any future relationship I might get into. Fuck love, give me logic*

I'm out.....................


Such cynicism coming from a face Soooo CUUUUTE. lol

Gambit, I love it when you join a discussion because your daughter's face brightens my day.
quote:




Dammit HB......you are so wrong for this. Frown

I never said this.......and i would never say this about black men. (well, maybe some.. sad)

I honestly love black men, but when you dont listen.....it pisses me off. (and yes, i know you feel the same.)

I dont have a problem with a blue collar brother....working hard to make ends meet. I've often said in my posts, that i look for other things, besides what he does for a living. Im working now, so that i can be an asset to him and my future children.

Im not a complete idiot.........i realize that i have had opportunities, that most black men will never have. I would never just turn my back on a black man, that i adore.......because of what he does for a living.

But i dislike it when im 'told' that i should look for a specific person, because thats the best that i can do...

My only other problem is, that most men look for that 'black beauty'....and a sista sometimes never gets to open her mouth.....before she is discounted. (just because of her looks)

What else do you want me to say.......i really dont think im being unreasonable. Frown

But your comments......made my tummy ache. sad
quote:
You have attempted to guide & instruct the men here regarding our choices. You have attempted to tell us what we have to do be acceptable mates.


"A Black Woman Desires Either Thugs or Ballers--WRONG!!!"

Again, I haven't instructed anyone on how to do anything. What I have done, however, was to provide on the Sistas Spot (a forum that has been specifically designed to host discussions of interest to women) photos that are alternative to the tasteless photos being posted in The Den--I thought the Sistas would appreciate seeing more dignified images of Black women, and more importantly, images of women with which they can more readily identify. Thus, those images were posted to show others the type of women that I (emphasis on I) find attractive, not to provide any specific instruction on how to pick women.

quote:
Develop whatever criteria you like, but don't blame us for the results of setting your criteria.


Brother, why must you automatically jump to the conclusion that the results will be unfavorable? Do you think that it is impossible for a woman to eventually find herself an adequate partner until she has been blessed with a man's opinion? Moreover, you seem to find satisfaction in believing making poor choices is something that is unique to women, specifically Black women. However, making poor choices is not something that only women do, it is something that ALL OF US have done (you included). Yes, men are also guilty of choosing women for shallow reasons. Do you think Donald Trump, for example, married Melania Knauss because of her brains and intellect??? Not likely. He married this woman because she is young and beautiful. And when her youth expires, she will be replaced for the same shallow reasons that all of his other wives have been replaced. Some may describe Trump's mate selection as making "poor choices," but ultimately, it is his life to live, not ours.

quote:
Does my friend at the Ford plant get no love? Do you even listen to him long enough to know he's a poet, mentor, and entrepreneur? That's a real brother I know, ready to get married & start a family.


I'm beginning to see why Sister Frenchy and others have abandoned this discussion. No one is making the argument that the men you've described are not "keepers" or worthy of love. Frenchy has not even discussed what her criteria is! In fact, no woman in this forum has yet to tell you that she values any of the type of men that you and Honestbrother have spent the last few pages accusing us of valuing. Therefore, your characterizations of her ideal man are largely based on stereotypes and generalizations, and applying these generalizations to her and any other Black woman on this site is unfair.
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quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
My brother for example who is only an inch shorter than me and I'm 5'9" got tired of black women telling him he was too short. So he dates Asian women. They don't expect men to be taller than 6 feet.


Then your brother needs to make "better choices." Wink Seriously though, Honestbrother, if your brother has been more successful dating Asian women, then I would encourage him to continue to do so.
Here's a helpful hint - If you see a thread in the Den started by RadioRaheem and you click it and pictures start to come up, click your Back button and leave the thread! You probably don't want to see what's in there!

Have you castigated the thread starter of Eye Candy in A Sista's Spot? If I or other men here think those photos are tasteless, should we post pictures to counter that? Most of us would say NO - Know why? We don't care - It's your fantasy. Look at whomever you like, posed however. Most importantly, we are not threatened by the images. We (Men at AA.org) know the images in the Den do not represent reality. The images must make you very uncomfortable, because you've lead the counter campaign. At least be honest like RadioRaheem. He owns up to posting some of the pictures just to elicit a rise out some of the members here (pun intended & unintended Wink ) and to make a point.

I never assumed the results would be unfavorable - that is your projection. I said don't blame us for the results. If you go fishing for salmon in a trout pond, it's not the trout's fault if you come home empty-handed. Search the threads here about the "man shortage". Read the content of posts from the ladies. Clearly, a criteria has been set & has not been met in the eyes of the ladies. Men have standards as well, we just don't gripe as much about our dating challenges. We don't gripe as much about our poor choices either. IF the men we described are keepers, why is there a "man shortage"? Because the criteria set is excluding them, that's why.

Your sisters have abandoned the discussion because they don't want to hear what we're saying. It's easier for it just to be our fault. That assessment requires no self-reflection. Did you read that Ruby Dee quote? That's what we want from our women.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
I'm beginning to see why Sister Frenchy and others have abandoned this discussion. No one is making the argument that the men you've described are not "keepers" or worthy of love. Frenchy has not even discussed what her criteria is! In fact, no woman in this forum has yet to tell you that she values any of the type of men that you and Honestbrother have spent the last few pages accusing us of valuing. Therefore, your characterizations of her ideal man are largely based on stereotypes and generalizations, and applying these generalizations to her and any other Black woman on this site is unfair.


Rowe, You are VERY correct here. No one gave any criteria . But if you noticed I did try to tease her (Frenchy's) criteria out of her. Maybe I did a poor job. But I would have loved to know her criteria.

What I found most interesting is that NO ONE - except Art Gurl - denied the criteria I was perhaps falsely imputing. That's what I was waiting for. A plausible denial. Frenchy went so far as to explicitly state that ALL the examples I gave were beneath her - I was a little shocked actually. What I got instead of a denial was people reinforcing with their own words the opposition between janitors and high status "cream". That made me think I was on to something.

So you ladies can give a lecture but you can't take one? Wink
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Rowe, the ONLY person to say "Wait a minute, I like some of these men" was Art Gurl. Don't you sistas in any way find that embarrassing?

I very much suspect that some of you ladies (who shall remain unnamed) are not being honest with yourselves or with us.

Once again, the whole point was to try to ascertain what the standards were and the imputed standards were never completely denied.

But of course, you're completely free to have whatever standards you want....
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Ahem... HonestBro... just a minute huh?
Please don't use me as a barb against the sistas on this site or what you think they want, blah blah.

We women all want different things - we are NOT monolithic. The common human desire is to find a mate, a companion, love, intimacy, friendship, etc. ideally a happy mix of all these things in one partner.

That I want a creative, artistic (let's not forget sensual and sexy as well, lol) guy is just what I want. Like I said a lot of other women want that too. But that kind of guy doesn't float every woman's boat. Why should any other woman want the same as what I want? And dammed if they do there's enough competition already, lol laugh

It doesn't matter if he is a janitor, a rubbish collector or the Dean in a university, if he is cute, sensitive, faithful, smart, loving guy, women's radar will FIND HIM!

No matter what attributes or incomes are on the male or female 'desirable mate' checklist, fate tends to jumble it all up and you meet infinite possibilities for relationships. There's a difference between opportunities and making a choices. Realistically, even the most cerebral and poetic garbage collector is unlikely to 'bump into' a sista with a PhD unless he is at that poetry spoken word night and the sista is there to listen to poetry. And I think the conversation will have been bubbling along a little while before any mention of PhD's and careers.
JMHO.
I'm not using you as a barb. I'm sorry if you feel that way because that was not my intention. Yes I do realize that different people want different things and won't necessarily be attracted to the same types. But the point I'm trying to make is that YOU, Art Gurl, ARE THE ONLY ONE AMONG THE WOMEN stepping forth to make these finer distinctions. The only one expressing a positive desire for ANY of the examples I gave. And I'm trying to figure out what to make of it. I have a hard time believing it to be insignificant and not worth commenting on. Perhaps you are simply more mature and in touch with yourself? Wink
lol now you are using charm as a 'weapon'! Wink

No I do understand the sistas frustrations. I have my own living here, lol - but we better not go there or I'll get into all sorts of trouble. Real and imagined. Big Grin

I think women here truly are trying to answer your question. Far be it for me to put words in their mouth. But the good thing is they are talking about it - and you guys are responding. So whether there is a bit of drama or not is in fact GOOD coz you are both chipping away at it. It being communicating. Smile

I think we are all a mix of reality and fantasy. My reality is that I want a man smart enough that I can learn from, and emotionally intelligent enough not to see every discussion as a contest. My fantasy is a Dijmon-artist-type guy lol lol who would probably have an ego the size of North America, and therefore make me miserable. Wink
What would happen if all our preconceptions were real? It would be a boring planet. We need surprises... poetic janitors, doctors with macabre humour, engineers who stargaze.... Smile
.
.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Rowe, the ONLY person to say "Wait a minute, I like some of these men" was Art Gurl. Don't you sistas in any way find that embarrassing?





HUH??????

What are you implying.......???

Why dont you just leave the sistas alone...........since we should be embarrassed!



Yanno....im done, i'll comment no more on this BS!!!