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I've been monitoring this debate, and apparently, both of you are trying to convey a similar message: Be more realistic. Black women: you can't have the Denzel look-alike with a six figure salary. And Black men: You can't have the tiny-figured Halle Berry look-alike who waits on you hand and foot. So I have a question for readers. Do you all think this culture's obsession with mega super stars has interferred with everyday people's interest in the opposite sex? Perhaps our standards are not too high, but have been influenced by someone else's standards.

A quick example: While in High school, the program "Martin" had just began its first season, and somehow, our class got on the topic of the female characters ("Gina" and "Pam") being played by actresses Tisha Campbell and Tashina Arnold. One of the boys in the class raved about how "ugly" he thought the character Pam was compared to Gina. My geomtry teacher, a African-American woman, who sported a natural, told him that if you saw Pam walking down the halls of this high school, every dude in here would be after her. She said the problem is the entertainment industry inflates the viewers standards of what is beautiful.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
You guys are all completely missing the point of qty's post (and all the others posts like hers that have come before). Do none of you see the disparity between the two standards she pointed out? It doesn't strike any of you as ODD that it is fine and even considered "rational" for a Black man to want the best looking woman available ("Who wouldn't choose a video girl over a 200 lb woman?" was the gist of the quote, I believe), but a Black woman is immediately scolded (as we see from the posts immediately following qty's post) for wanting anything "too fancy." She must be open to the buck-toothed, hump-backed janitor, but it's "just common sense" for the Black man to only want the Halle Berry and Beyonce look-a-likes. All of that was lost on you all?

The point is NOT that "janitors aint shit" or however else things were apparently interpreted. It's the double standard.



Exactly !!! thanks
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
Two things:
1 - Gambit, I wasn't talking to you. Turn that frown upside down.

2 - HonestB, you're still missing it, baby. Hee hee. It is not that men are going out and dating these "perfect women," it's that it's perfectly okay for them to want that and the same is not true for us. THAT is the double standard. It works like this:

In front of a man stands Halle Berry and a random Plain Jane.

Man: I choose Halle!
Crowd Reaction: Naturally! Who wouldn't?

In front of a woman stands Denzel and a random Plain Joe.

Woman: I choose Denzel!
Crowd Reaction: That's what's wrong with you all. What makes you think you are worthy of dating a Denzel? You all are focused on the wrong things and need to be open to all types of Black men and stop trying to go for the Denzels. Why does a brotha have to have all of this stuff before you will look at him? What happened to growing with a brotha? And if Denzel cheats on you, you deserve it and I'm gonna laugh because that is what you get going after those types of desireable men.



thanks
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Do you all think this culture's obsession with mega super stars has interferred with everyday people's interest in the opposite sex? Perhaps our standards are not too high, but have been influenced by someone else's standards.


thanks

We're going back and forth 'debating' whether it is right or wrong to desire scenarios that will rarely if ever happen.

The average brotha dating Beyonce

The average sista dating Denzel

Double standard or not, these scenarios are fantasies... Media Creations.

* Dear Sistas and Brothas, let's get REAL * tfro
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
I still believe the "few good mates" argument is overblown & overhyped. People because of their preferences and flaws (recognized & unrecognized), sabotage many of their relationships. People should have:

Realistic expectations
Honest self-assessment
Objectivity in assessing a relationship
Willingness to forgive (themselves & others)
Adaptability


Too many people have rigid views of themselves, others, and relationships. Who knows, that single mom or blue collar man may surprise you!



thanks thanks
For God's Sake! Denzel and Halle are only examples. The double standard plays out in normal everyday life!

"What makes you think you deserve to date an attractive attorney?"
"That's what you get for dating a 'pretty boy'?"
"Who wouldn't choose the girl with the big butt over the brainiac? It's only natural to go after what is visually appealing!"

Etc.

This is NOT about specifically dating Denzels and Halles. This is NOT about lowering dating expectations. It's not about speicifcally dating anyone at all really. It is an observation of WHAT IS.

And I reject the idea that because these "ideal mates" are not who most of us end up with that there is no damage done. It is tremendously harmful to place these mental barriers on only women for having any sort of ambition for a mate. It's nothing more than another way to beat up on women and give men a pass. Most of us do not end up as atronauts and doctors, but we would never say it's fine to discourage kids from dreaming of that future because they must remain "in reality."

Sexism has NO defense. 99% of my grief would be relieved if men would spend as much time trying to counsel and advise each other rather than the opposite sex. IMO, 99% of men would quickly change their views if they were advising another man on the very same subject.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
"What makes you think you deserve to date an attractive attorney?"
"That's what you get for dating a 'pretty boy'?"
"Who wouldn't choose the girl with the big butt over the brainiac? It's only natural to go after what is visually appealing!"


Frenchy, I think I hear ya. But the "attractive attorney" or "doctor" and the "pretty boy" may be just other versions of "Denzel": widespread cultural ideals of what we're "supposed to want".

I don't ever hear people setting their sights for the attractive engineer or mathematician or dentist. Much less the ambitious and intelligent young janitor.

And I love Brainiacs - especially if they're cute - notice I said "cute" - not necessarily "fine"....
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
What if "the total package" is just a fantasy too?


I think we all know that the "perfect" partner doesn't exist. But there is certainly a hierarchy of mates: men or women who are more suitable or the most desireable, etc. It's that "cream of the crop" within the gender that I mean.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
I think we all know that the "perfect" partner doesn't exist. But there is certainly a hierarchy of mates: men or women who are more suitable or the most desireable, etc. It's that "cream of the crop" within the gender that I mean.


And how is that determined? And why?


thanks

You read my mind. What makes the "Doctor" or "Lawyer" the so called cream of the crop? I've dated a few of those and I know they aren't all that.

Anyway I thought the original issue was black women being bashed for wanting anything "too fancy" as opposed to the bucktoothed janitor. I think it went something like

quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
a Black woman is immediately scolded (as we see from the posts immediately following qty's post) for wanting anything "too fancy." She must be open to the buck-toothed, hump-backed janitor...


So are you saying that the "fancy" choices are confined to "pretty boys", "Lawyers", and "Doctors" and that all that's left over are "buck-toothed, hump-backed janitors"? There's nothing else?

Baby, I was the cream of the crop even when I was a young ambitious janitor Razz
Oh Lord, here we go again. I thought this was cleared up already.

quote:
What makes the "Doctor" or "Lawyer" the so called cream of the crop?


The same combination of factors that make "girls with a phat ass" the cream of the crop for men. AGAIN, this is not about these particular individual men or women and their merits. It is about the right for both genders to strive for "The (Percieved) Best."

And I NEVER said there was only the cream of the crop and everyone else was shit. In fact, I went out of my way to repeatedly point that out even though it was irrelevant to my point.

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