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quote:
Originally posted by AudioGuy:
I also think, based upon my observation - however limited it may be, that a man will date/marry a woman regardless of her station in life... she could be working on the fryer at Mickey D's, but if she's cute she has almost as good a shot at getting a mate as a sister with a phd.

Let a brother say "I'm in charge of the fries at Mickey D's" and see how far he gets - regardless of his looks!!



bow

I can't add anymore to this argument, but I think this should be repeated as many times as necessary.
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
quote:
What about your black artists? Sculptors? Writers? Painters? Scholars? Community Activists? These aren't cream of the crop? And they're deserving men.


HB... for a lot of women (me included) these men are the cream of the crop! Dream man/men, in fact. eyes


eyes kiss eyes kiss

This is why guys like me wind up with white women.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by AudioGuy:
I also think, based upon my observation - however limited it may be, that a man will date/marry a woman regardless of her station in life... she could be working on the fryer at Mickey D's, but if she's cute she has almost as good a shot at getting a mate as a sister with a phd.

Let a brother say "I'm in charge of the fries at Mickey D's" and see how far he gets - regardless of his looks!!



bow

I can't add anymore to this argument, but I think this should be repeated as many times as necessary.


isn't this saying let's ditch classism, but it's OK to discriminate on looks? Like I said... for some men the booty calls before anything else ! And it could be argued that it implies... who gives a fck about her brain as long as she's a good fck. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
quote:
What about your black artists? Sculptors? Writers? Painters? Scholars? Community Activists? These aren't cream of the crop? And they're deserving men.


HB... for a lot of women (me included) these men are the cream of the crop! Dream man/men, in fact. eyes

Point is, whether they are doctors or artists, a lot of time the booty 'talks' to those men way before (or instead of) any of those similar talents in women.


AG, these are not talents, they're careers or occupations, or callings. That's the giant problem me and the other guys on this thread are having with this perception of a double standard. Women are looking for the different occupations listed throughout this thread. Their not looking for talent. But as I and others have said before, If that's what you want then that's what you get.


quote:
Flip the script, and ask yourself are any men actively seeking the same - women writers, artists, painters, etc,


No, men and women are not seeking the same thing! That's why this whole idea of a double standard is silly.


quote:
or do they expect booty + beauty + brain + bank balance ALL-in-one?


A lot of men are more into 'T' than 'A' + beauty is entirely subjective + there are many stupid men who can appreciate a stupid woman + I've never in my life met a man who cared in the slightest how much money a woman made.
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quote:
AG, these are not talents, they're careers or occupations, or callings. That's the giant problem me and the other guys on this thread are having with this perception of a double standard. Women are looking for the different occupations listed throughout this thread. Their not looking for talent. But as I and others have said before, If that's what you want then that's what you get.


lol you call the arts careers? A 'career' in the arts is more like unemployment! They are mind-sets and mindspaces not merely careers or occupations. Thanks for agreeing however that men aren't looking for cerebral talent more external 'talent'.
NOT ALL women are looking for occupations, but companions. Not all men are looking for booty uber alles, but a I'd say a heck of a lot are.

So... what are you looking for if not talent or a brain.... state your case.
.
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
NOT ALL women are looking for occupations, but companions.


We're all looking for companions. The disagreement here is how those potential companions are ranked and chosen.


quote:
Not all men are looking for booty uber alles, but a I'd say a heck of a lot are.


Why? Because we look at pictures of supermodels in g-strings?


quote:
So... what are you looking for if not talent or a brain.... state your case.
.


I already posted what men are looking for, but I'll sum it up: Flexability, Integrity, Loyalty, and a Giving Nature.

All other considerations are subjective and ultimately unimportant. But these four criteria a required for a man's long term health and happiness.

You'll notice that there is no mention of "brains, or beauty, or booty, or bank accounts".
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:

Actually AG, if she's got no brain then she can't be a good f*ck. laugh


good for you waving your sexist BS flag! that's a sicko comment if ever I heard one. hit


There is nothing sick or sexist about that comment. My experience is that good sex requires a certain amount of mental stimulation. However, that's off.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by AudioGuy:
I also think, based upon my observation - however limited it may be, that a man will date/marry a woman regardless of her station in life... she could be working on the fryer at Mickey D's, but if she's cute she has almost as good a shot at getting a mate as a sister with a phd.

Let a brother say "I'm in charge of the fries at Mickey D's" and see how far he gets - regardless of his looks!!



bow

I can't add anymore to this argument, but I think this should be repeated as many times as necessary.



DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!!
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:

Actually AG, if she's got no brain then she can't be a good f*ck.


Mea culpa DAMMIT!!
I was rushing out to Pilates and I thought it read a brain. Puts a different spin on things don't you agree.

quote:

I already posted what men are looking for, but I'll sum it up: Flexability, Integrity, Loyalty, and a Giving Nature.

I asked your criteria, not a generic 'men's' criteria.

quote:
All other considerations are subjective and ultimately unimportant.

huh? not convinced.

quote:
You'll notice that there is no mention of "brains, or beauty, or booty, or bank accounts".

guilty by omission laugh
.
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:

Actually AG, if she's got no brain then she can't be a good f*ck.


Mea culpa DAMMIT!!
I was rushing out to Pilates and I thought it read a brain. Puts a different spin on things don't you agree.


Apology accepted. Wink bsm


quote:
I asked your criteria, not a generic 'men's' criteria.


Same/same. These are my criteria. I think you'll find most men are the same in this regard. We are men, after all.



quote:
quote:
All other considerations are subjective and ultimately unimportant.

huh? not convinced.


quote:
You'll notice that there is no mention of "brains, or beauty, or booty, or bank accounts".

quote:
guilty by omission laugh
.



Sigh... giveup... kiss... tfro
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
This is NOT the point, AG. No one is encouraging women to date only a Denzel. No one is saying Denzels are the only quality men. No one is saying that we want the right to hold out for a Denzel. WOMEN SHOULD HAVE THE OPTION OF STRIVING FOR A "DENZEL" WITHOUT HEARING A BUNCH OF FRIGGIN LIP ABOUT HOW WE NEED TO REFOCUS/REVISE/RETHINK BECAUSE WE DON'T DESERVE IT OR BECAUSE WE'RE NOT GIVING THE "LOWER-RUNG" OF BROTHAS A CHANCE OR WHATEVER OTHER REASON. The same way that men can strive for the prettiest available woman...
We men strive for the woman who is the prettiest available... again, regardless of her station in life... Women, on the other hand, strive for the prettiest available and the mercedes...
quote:
Let us want whatever the Hell it is we want! Sure, we may end up with something else when all is said and done, but this rush by Black men to immediately shoot down any of the Black woman's romantic/relationship aspirations...
Frenchy... back away from the computer, these are just opinions - nobdy is claiming to be Dr. Phil here.
quote:
Why should we reduce ourselves down to taking up with whoever is cute?? We expect more because we're smarter. And because we have more responsibilities.
It is not a reduction!!

quote:
Why do men feel compelled to even contribute this?
I can't speak for anybody anybody else, but I contribute to this because it is a discussion forum.
quote:
Do you think there is a Black woman alive who does not "realize the limitations" of her situation?
Quite obviously, yes.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
What about your black artists? Sculptors? Writers? Painters? Engineers? Accountants? Scholars? Dentists? Community Activists? We have some of those you know? These aren't cream of the crop? And they're deserving men.


Have Black Women Gotten Out Of The Black Man's Reach?

Brother Honestbrother, Frenchy's argument is that whatever a woman's idea of a best pick is, she should be able to pursue such a man, if she so chooses. Whether her idea of a best pick is Denzel or Mr. T--that is her business. Women are not children that require special guidance or direction. Women are grown adults just as men are adults, responsible for making their own decisions.

Also, another explanation for why more women are demanding the right to be selective is that, traditionally, women didn't enjoy as much "independence" and "freedom" as they do today. Both men and women must accept, however, that times have dramatically changed. A woman no longer has to sit around and wait on whoever comes along that is willing to marry and create a life for her. Women can now develop standards and criteria as to what "types" of men they will accept and won't accept. And though some men will never admit it, this reality causes them great anxiety. They worry that women, particularly "super educated" Black women, are becoming too judgemental and unwilling to view the average Joe as acceptable partners.
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You are funny Ms. Rowe! You have attempted to guide & instruct the men here regarding our choices. You have attempted to tell us what we have to do be acceptable mates (more guiding!). Then you stop it off by posting:

quote:
...she should be able to pursue such a man if she so chooses, whether that be a Denzel or whomever--that is her business. Women are not children that require guidance or direction. Women are grown adults just as men are adults, responsible for making their own decisions.

Pot. Kettle. Black. lol
We understand the argument, but like I mentioned a few pages back, it sets up a catch-22. Develop whatever criteria you like, but don't blame us for the results of setting your criteria. Judging by some of the threads here, we are being convicted with flimsy evidence! laugh Does my friend at the Ford plant get no love? Do you even listen to him long enough to know he's a poet, mentor, and entrepreneur? That's a real brother I know, ready to get married & start a family. But because he's not in the "ideal package" today, he's still single. No lady here has explained (and the question has been asked multiple times, across multiple threads!) what does career choice or education have to do with being an ideal mate. Is a brother ignorant if he does not have a degree? Is a brother not worthwhile without a high-status career? How do know that the "Average Joe" doesn't have the core values & personality traits to make you happy?

P.S. Substance is more difficult to find in a mate, whether you're a man or woman. HonestBrother, relax. Sooner or later, some of the ladies will realize that you (and brothers like you) are keepers. Unfortunately, some of them will realize it right around the time you are no longer available! tfro Keep ya' head up!
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Have Black Women Gotten Out Of The Black Man's Reach?

Brother Honestbrother, Frenchy's argument is that whatever a woman's idea of a best pick is, she should be able to pursue such a man, if she so chooses. Whether her idea of a best pick is Denzel or Mr. T--that is her business. Women are not children that require special guidance or direction. Women are grown adults just as men are adults, responsible for making their own decisions.


Rowe, Frenchy is a grown adult who didn't say any of this. So why put words into her mouth? Second, hasn't someone been trying to instruct other people on what female beauty is?

We men contribute to the discussion because we're the ones who get acid stomach listening to the NEVER ENDING COMPLAINTS FROM BLACK WOMEN about how there are no men.
On that subject, didn't I just read a post in A Sista's Spot explaining that black men who desire white women do so because they despise black beauty?

As much as I want to be Afrocentric and agree wholeheartedly with the article, I have to say that at least some of us are with white women because we can't find black beauty.

My brother for example who is only an inch shorter than me and I'm 5'9" got tired of black women telling him he was too short. So he dates Asian women. They don't expect men to be taller than 6 feet.

YES. Date whoever you want. But you Sistas don't seem to realize that we as a group are on the verge of a severe crisis. Ya'll need to stop the belly aching and the nit-picking. It really is excessive. For real.

Yes men too can have unrealistic expectations of women. But you don't CONSTANTLY read and hear about them griping because they can't find big booty or whatever the crap it is.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
off Do you find it funny that it's usually a sister 5'5" and under that wants a 6 foot+ brother? Even with the tallest heels, they'll still be a few inches shorter! laugh Maybe they're hoping the tall brother's genes will offset their shorty genes when it's time to have children... lol

Night, night all hat


YES! If you read the personals ads online, you see 5'2" women asserting their right to a 6' tall man or taller. This is common.

Ladies, the nitpicking has to stop. It's becoming absurd. lol
I just dont get it.......

HB........Your brother date asians, because hes 5'8, and cant find a black beauty, that likes men that are 5'8? lol

Ok....sorry for laughing!!!!

Im realizing that brothers are the ones with the issues. Like i mentioned before....

"Shes too dark, too fat, too skinny, nappy hair"

We are not on a verge of a severe crisis......because a lot of 'these' same black women have, decided to do other things. We are simply following your lead.

You are not going to settle.....and neither are we.
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
I just dont get it.......

HB........Your brother date asians, because hes 5'8, and cant find a black beauty, that likes men that are 5'8? lol

Ok....sorry for laughing!!!!

Im realizing that brothers are the ones with the issues. Like i mentioned before....

"Shes too dark, too fat, too skinny, nappy hair"



Did any God damned body say anything like that? Did you hear me say anything like that?????

You sisters are just committed to believing that you're the ONLY victims among us.

NOOOOOOOO, It can NEVER EVER EVER be the case that a black woman makes a f*cked up decision. You give examples and people come rushing out of the woodwork to rationalize stupid behavior.

You all LECTURE US on what we should find beautiful. And I was even open to that. Then you can't take a lecture yourselves.

That's alright. I'm DONE. Pass my white woman.

Ya'll are so deaf, hardheaded, and insensitive when it comes to someone else's feelings....
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
I just dont get it.......

HB........Your brother date asians, because hes 5'8, and cant find a black beauty, that likes men that are 5'8? lol


For your information. That's true. And it's not funny. IT IS NOT FUNNY. It doesn't matter that there's a black woman out there who might like him. If you get stiffed enough times you give up.

MEN HAVE FUCKING FEELINGS TOO
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
I just dont get it.......

HB........Your brother date asians, because hes 5'8, and cant find a black beauty, that likes men that are 5'8? lol


For your information. That's true. And it's not funny. IT IS NOT FUNNY. It doesn't matter that there's a black woman out there who might like him. If you get stiffed enough times you give up.

MEN HAVE FUCKING FEELINGS TOO




So we all get stiffed...........i get stiffed because im dark skinned, but im told to settle, and grab a janitor.

Your brother gets stiffed because of his height.......and he moves on to asian women. (knowing that there are tons of black women.....that could careless about his height.............but hes looking for a black beauty, therefore he will never settle).

As the article brought out.....YOU men over look the average sista, because of her weight, etc.........and then want to complain.

But black women, have to settle.

HB i know men have feelings, but i personally feel that men can have their pick, there are tons of women out here.

You men just keep picking the same women.....over and over again. (looking for that black beauty)

Women have feelings as well, and to tell me to find a janitor, just to have a man......is just not fair.


Ohh and one more thing.........im 5'8, without heels. I was willing to date a man that was 5'6, but things didnt work out.

So yes........there are times, when i over look certain things.........but dont tell me that my future is dim, because i wont pick a janitor.
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
You are not going to settle.....and neither are we.


You don't want to "settle" for
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
What about your black artists? Sculptors? Writers? Painters? Engineers? Accountants? Scholars? Dentists? Community Activists? We have some of those you know? These aren't cream of the crop? And they're deserving men.


or for
quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Here's a list of people who probably do NOT earn 6 figures or a comparable salary

Albert Einstein
Add almost any college professor to this list -(even many at Ivy League Schools)
Most teachers/administrators in junior colleges
Teachers in elementary and secondary education
Most people in literature or the arts.
Etc. I could go on if a really tried but I have a life

But my point is not that women need to "lower" their vision. They need to broaden/expand their vision.


????????????????????

Fine. Then don't "settle". Oh I forgot Frenchy's wisdom:

quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
The standards are what they are. The "cream" is what it is. Why do you give a shit what we consider the best to be unless you want us to change it BY LOWERING IT TO INCLUDE YOU AND YOUR PEERS? Isn't that your gripe? The cut-off is too high for your liking? Why should women give a shit what is to your liking with respect to the mates we choose??


OK. I've had enough black woman AAA (Awful Ass Attitude) to last a lifetime. Ya'll can get the f*ck on and explore your options.

Don't settle.

giveup
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
because i wont pick a janitor.


HOW MUCH TIME DID I JUST SPEND DISCUSSING OPTIONS BESIDES JANITORS?

qty226, you don't know me personally, who I've chosen to date. My personal history might surprise you. I resent being lumped in with "YOU MEN" and being told about who I've rejected and why. Because you don't know.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
because i wont pick a janitor.


HOW MUCH TIME DID I JUST SPEND DISCUSSING OPTIONS BESIDES JANITORS?

qty226, you don't know me personally, who I've chosen to date. My personal history might surprise you. I resent being lumped in with "YOU MEN" and being told about who I've rejected and why. Because you don't know.



Damn HB........i was using a janitor, as a point of reference.

Im going to law school.....that doesnt mean, im looking to marry/date a doctor, lawyer etc.............i do know that there are tons of decent black men, in other professions. But let that be my choice.......

To tell a black woman, that she should only EXPECT, this or that, because we cant do any better.....is disheartening.

I didnt say YOU said anything.........

Im not trying to lump you with other men.......im just trying to express myself, and i dont want you to take this personally....

OK?
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
No lady here has explained (and the question has been asked multiple times, across multiple threads!) what does career choice or education have to do with being an ideal mate. Is a brother ignorant if he does not have a degree? Is a brother not worthwhile without a high-status career? How do know that the "Average Joe" doesn't have the core values & personality traits to make you happy?



I don't think they can answer those questions without sounding like a golddigger. I think what the women here are missing from the man's posting is the women are unwilling to 'grow with a brother'. That's why you see so many Black men in the military ranks [...among the most underpaid citizens in our society] married to other races. Those brides are willing to go up the 'rough side of the mountain' with a brother. ...that says alot about their character.
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
That's why you see so many Black men in the military ranks [...among the most underpaid citizens in our society] married to other races. Those brides are willing to go up the 'rough side of the mountain' with a brother. ...that says alot about their character.




Men in the military, have the highest infidelity rates!

*keep shooting yourself in the foot*


Whatever.....im done with this!! Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
That's why you see so many Black men in the military ranks [...among the most underpaid citizens in our society] married to other races. Those brides are willing to go up the 'rough side of the mountain' with a brother. ...that says alot about their character.




Men in the military, have the highest infidelity rates!

*keep shooting yourself in the foot*


Whatever.....im done with this!! Big Grin


where is the proof? Confused

is the rate higher than Professional athletes? Are Black women willing to be married toa cheater if the money is right? I thought there was a man shortage? are you sure this isn't gold digging??
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quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:

I don't think they can answer those questions without sounding like a golddigger. I think what the women here are missing from the man's posting is the women are unwilling to 'grow with a brother'. ... Those brides are willing to go up the 'rough side of the mountain' with a brother. ...that says alot about their character.


DING, DING, DING - We have another winner. I've expressed this in other threads. Everybody can't get the instant dream life (add perfect man/woman & stir Big Grin). Yes, it happens, but it's not the norm. Did anybody really read that Ruby Dee quote:

quote:
Ruby: "How to ride the rough waves in a relation long enough for the waters to get calm? When does it sink in that overcoming difficult times gets easier with practice? How do you drag some of the good feelings, good times vibrations into the stormy places? To love someone long and deep is a "consummation devoutly to be wished"!... It is day by day, one step at a time. It may not mean two bathrooms, but just some space, some privacy, some area to be alone. ...Unlike the wedding event, that takes place in a day, marriage is a long process that goes on at some level every day for the rest of your life....We have to learn how to live together... I thought I loved you, Ossie, when we got married, but as I see now, I was only in the kindergarten of the proposition. To arrive at love is like working on a double doctorate in the subject of Life." Source: joint biography, pages 430-431

Ruby: "It takes a long time to really be married. One marries many times at many levels within that marriage. If you have more marriages than you have divorces within the marriage, you're lucky and you stick it out." Source: First UU Church of Wausau

Ruby: "A trustworthy marriage has weathered temptation and anger and jealousy, resentment, self-righteousness and a little bit of selfishness. When you get over and get through that, then maybe you can see the light to love." Source: Ossie and Ruby: Is This the Love Affair of the Century? Ebony, 2/99


To me, it's about knowing that things will never be perfect. It's about finding someone you're willing to love & argue with. It's about allowing yourself & your partner to evolve. It's not about picking a ready made package off the shelf. Thanks again for those quotes HB!

I've seen qty226 say that she would like to find a serious partner, even while pursuing a law degree. That man will have to compromise, sacrifice, and grow with her if they are to have long-term success. Perhaps that blue collar man today is the Ph.D tomorrow like HonestBrother. He needs someone willing to grow with him too!

I know it's tough HB - you raise sincere, valid points, only to have them discarded or ignored because you're a man. Stiffen that chin like me & Raheem! tfro

P.S. qty226 - you might really need to leave Tampa! I know plenty of young brothers that would dig a sister like you. Sounds like your environment has you jaded... Frown

P.P.S. I think sometimes women do forget men have feelings as well. If you're too sensitive, you're soft or a punk (Even though sensitivity is supposed to be in lol). Couple that with the tendency of some women to always push the envelope of what they will say to a man and you have the tension present in this thread.
Lawd oh Lawd!

People ask me why I don't display much (if any) emotion when I'm in relationships and this thread is why. lol

Rationality folks, rationality. No one (well most no ones) wants someone they "have to carry". Thats a given. If you want a Denzel/Halle, go for it. But if Denzel/Halle don't want you back, suck it up and move on (or keep trying and get your heart broke again). Same goes for the average brother/sister. But one thing I've learned is this. Nothing will change. We are too set in our ways. If you see that man/woman with someone of another race, LET THAT SHIT GO!I dont have the time nor the energy to worry about someone I'm NOT FUCKING!If God/fate/karma/Shiva, determines you are going to be alone, you're going to be alone. Screw swimming against the tide. Shit, after all the battles about who's right, who's wrong, who should be with whom, we should'nt "be" with anybody. Relationships suck and mankind in general needs to die off and some other form of life take over.

*To the world....Yeah the old "heartless, emotionless" Gambit is back and this time I'm fucking staying. I don't want and don't need emotions clouding any future relationship I might get into. Fuck love, give me logic*

I'm out.....................
You Sistas want to be The Mothers of Civilization? Well it takes more than Denzels and Doctors to have civilization. It takes:

black artists
Sculptors
Writers
Painters
CONSTRUCTION WORKERS
Engineers
Accountants
Scholars
Dentists
Community Activists
Albert Einsteins
college professors
JANITORS
SOCIAL WORKERS
teachers/administrators in junior colleges
Teachers in elementary and secondary education
people in literature and the arts
Etc. Etc.

to have a civilization.
I.e., PUT UP OR SHUT UP!
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quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
That's alright. I'm DONE. Pass my white woman.


Don't run in that direction too fast HB. You'll get this same kind of crap from white women. Trust me! Big Grin From the lightest vanilla to the darkest chocolate, they're still women. They'll always be women, just like we'll always be men.

I'm guessing the answer is to de-code all of this language. But, no matter how many times I read back over this thread, I just can't pinpoint the moment when we all stopped speaking and hearing English. But one thing is certain. When ever that was, that's when it went from being a conversation to being a vendetta. We've been beating on each other ever since to no avail.

Maybe it's time to call a truce...
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
That's alright. I'm DONE. Pass my white woman.


Don't run in that direction too fast HB. You'll get this same kind of crap from white women. Trust me! Big Grin From the lightest vanilla to the darkest chocolate, they're still women. They'll always be women, just like we'll always be men.


As someone who has dated on both sides of the racial fence, I'll be the judge of where it's best to take my chances Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by xxGAMBITxx:
*To the world....Yeah the old "heartless, emotionless" Gambit is back and this time I'm fucking staying. I don't want and don't need emotions clouding any future relationship I might get into. Fuck love, give me logic*

I'm out.....................


Such cynicism coming from a face Soooo CUUUUTE. lol

Gambit, I love it when you join a discussion because your daughter's face brightens my day.
quote:




Dammit HB......you are so wrong for this. Frown

I never said this.......and i would never say this about black men. (well, maybe some.. sad)

I honestly love black men, but when you dont listen.....it pisses me off. (and yes, i know you feel the same.)

I dont have a problem with a blue collar brother....working hard to make ends meet. I've often said in my posts, that i look for other things, besides what he does for a living. Im working now, so that i can be an asset to him and my future children.

Im not a complete idiot.........i realize that i have had opportunities, that most black men will never have. I would never just turn my back on a black man, that i adore.......because of what he does for a living.

But i dislike it when im 'told' that i should look for a specific person, because thats the best that i can do...

My only other problem is, that most men look for that 'black beauty'....and a sista sometimes never gets to open her mouth.....before she is discounted. (just because of her looks)

What else do you want me to say.......i really dont think im being unreasonable. Frown

But your comments......made my tummy ache. sad
quote:
You have attempted to guide & instruct the men here regarding our choices. You have attempted to tell us what we have to do be acceptable mates.


"A Black Woman Desires Either Thugs or Ballers--WRONG!!!"

Again, I haven't instructed anyone on how to do anything. What I have done, however, was to provide on the Sistas Spot (a forum that has been specifically designed to host discussions of interest to women) photos that are alternative to the tasteless photos being posted in The Den--I thought the Sistas would appreciate seeing more dignified images of Black women, and more importantly, images of women with which they can more readily identify. Thus, those images were posted to show others the type of women that I (emphasis on I) find attractive, not to provide any specific instruction on how to pick women.

quote:
Develop whatever criteria you like, but don't blame us for the results of setting your criteria.


Brother, why must you automatically jump to the conclusion that the results will be unfavorable? Do you think that it is impossible for a woman to eventually find herself an adequate partner until she has been blessed with a man's opinion? Moreover, you seem to find satisfaction in believing making poor choices is something that is unique to women, specifically Black women. However, making poor choices is not something that only women do, it is something that ALL OF US have done (you included). Yes, men are also guilty of choosing women for shallow reasons. Do you think Donald Trump, for example, married Melania Knauss because of her brains and intellect??? Not likely. He married this woman because she is young and beautiful. And when her youth expires, she will be replaced for the same shallow reasons that all of his other wives have been replaced. Some may describe Trump's mate selection as making "poor choices," but ultimately, it is his life to live, not ours.

quote:
Does my friend at the Ford plant get no love? Do you even listen to him long enough to know he's a poet, mentor, and entrepreneur? That's a real brother I know, ready to get married & start a family.


I'm beginning to see why Sister Frenchy and others have abandoned this discussion. No one is making the argument that the men you've described are not "keepers" or worthy of love. Frenchy has not even discussed what her criteria is! In fact, no woman in this forum has yet to tell you that she values any of the type of men that you and Honestbrother have spent the last few pages accusing us of valuing. Therefore, your characterizations of her ideal man are largely based on stereotypes and generalizations, and applying these generalizations to her and any other Black woman on this site is unfair.
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quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
My brother for example who is only an inch shorter than me and I'm 5'9" got tired of black women telling him he was too short. So he dates Asian women. They don't expect men to be taller than 6 feet.


Then your brother needs to make "better choices." Wink Seriously though, Honestbrother, if your brother has been more successful dating Asian women, then I would encourage him to continue to do so.
Here's a helpful hint - If you see a thread in the Den started by RadioRaheem and you click it and pictures start to come up, click your Back button and leave the thread! You probably don't want to see what's in there!

Have you castigated the thread starter of Eye Candy in A Sista's Spot? If I or other men here think those photos are tasteless, should we post pictures to counter that? Most of us would say NO - Know why? We don't care - It's your fantasy. Look at whomever you like, posed however. Most importantly, we are not threatened by the images. We (Men at AA.org) know the images in the Den do not represent reality. The images must make you very uncomfortable, because you've lead the counter campaign. At least be honest like RadioRaheem. He owns up to posting some of the pictures just to elicit a rise out some of the members here (pun intended & unintended Wink ) and to make a point.

I never assumed the results would be unfavorable - that is your projection. I said don't blame us for the results. If you go fishing for salmon in a trout pond, it's not the trout's fault if you come home empty-handed. Search the threads here about the "man shortage". Read the content of posts from the ladies. Clearly, a criteria has been set & has not been met in the eyes of the ladies. Men have standards as well, we just don't gripe as much about our dating challenges. We don't gripe as much about our poor choices either. IF the men we described are keepers, why is there a "man shortage"? Because the criteria set is excluding them, that's why.

Your sisters have abandoned the discussion because they don't want to hear what we're saying. It's easier for it just to be our fault. That assessment requires no self-reflection. Did you read that Ruby Dee quote? That's what we want from our women.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
I'm beginning to see why Sister Frenchy and others have abandoned this discussion. No one is making the argument that the men you've described are not "keepers" or worthy of love. Frenchy has not even discussed what her criteria is! In fact, no woman in this forum has yet to tell you that she values any of the type of men that you and Honestbrother have spent the last few pages accusing us of valuing. Therefore, your characterizations of her ideal man are largely based on stereotypes and generalizations, and applying these generalizations to her and any other Black woman on this site is unfair.


Rowe, You are VERY correct here. No one gave any criteria . But if you noticed I did try to tease her (Frenchy's) criteria out of her. Maybe I did a poor job. But I would have loved to know her criteria.

What I found most interesting is that NO ONE - except Art Gurl - denied the criteria I was perhaps falsely imputing. That's what I was waiting for. A plausible denial. Frenchy went so far as to explicitly state that ALL the examples I gave were beneath her - I was a little shocked actually. What I got instead of a denial was people reinforcing with their own words the opposition between janitors and high status "cream". That made me think I was on to something.

So you ladies can give a lecture but you can't take one? Wink
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Rowe, the ONLY person to say "Wait a minute, I like some of these men" was Art Gurl. Don't you sistas in any way find that embarrassing?

I very much suspect that some of you ladies (who shall remain unnamed) are not being honest with yourselves or with us.

Once again, the whole point was to try to ascertain what the standards were and the imputed standards were never completely denied.

But of course, you're completely free to have whatever standards you want....
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Ahem... HonestBro... just a minute huh?
Please don't use me as a barb against the sistas on this site or what you think they want, blah blah.

We women all want different things - we are NOT monolithic. The common human desire is to find a mate, a companion, love, intimacy, friendship, etc. ideally a happy mix of all these things in one partner.

That I want a creative, artistic (let's not forget sensual and sexy as well, lol) guy is just what I want. Like I said a lot of other women want that too. But that kind of guy doesn't float every woman's boat. Why should any other woman want the same as what I want? And dammed if they do there's enough competition already, lol laugh

It doesn't matter if he is a janitor, a rubbish collector or the Dean in a university, if he is cute, sensitive, faithful, smart, loving guy, women's radar will FIND HIM!

No matter what attributes or incomes are on the male or female 'desirable mate' checklist, fate tends to jumble it all up and you meet infinite possibilities for relationships. There's a difference between opportunities and making a choices. Realistically, even the most cerebral and poetic garbage collector is unlikely to 'bump into' a sista with a PhD unless he is at that poetry spoken word night and the sista is there to listen to poetry. And I think the conversation will have been bubbling along a little while before any mention of PhD's and careers.
JMHO.
I'm not using you as a barb. I'm sorry if you feel that way because that was not my intention. Yes I do realize that different people want different things and won't necessarily be attracted to the same types. But the point I'm trying to make is that YOU, Art Gurl, ARE THE ONLY ONE AMONG THE WOMEN stepping forth to make these finer distinctions. The only one expressing a positive desire for ANY of the examples I gave. And I'm trying to figure out what to make of it. I have a hard time believing it to be insignificant and not worth commenting on. Perhaps you are simply more mature and in touch with yourself? Wink
lol now you are using charm as a 'weapon'! Wink

No I do understand the sistas frustrations. I have my own living here, lol - but we better not go there or I'll get into all sorts of trouble. Real and imagined. Big Grin

I think women here truly are trying to answer your question. Far be it for me to put words in their mouth. But the good thing is they are talking about it - and you guys are responding. So whether there is a bit of drama or not is in fact GOOD coz you are both chipping away at it. It being communicating. Smile

I think we are all a mix of reality and fantasy. My reality is that I want a man smart enough that I can learn from, and emotionally intelligent enough not to see every discussion as a contest. My fantasy is a Dijmon-artist-type guy lol lol who would probably have an ego the size of North America, and therefore make me miserable. Wink
What would happen if all our preconceptions were real? It would be a boring planet. We need surprises... poetic janitors, doctors with macabre humour, engineers who stargaze.... Smile
.
.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Rowe, the ONLY person to say "Wait a minute, I like some of these men" was Art Gurl. Don't you sistas in any way find that embarrassing?





HUH??????

What are you implying.......???

Why dont you just leave the sistas alone...........since we should be embarrassed!



Yanno....im done, i'll comment no more on this BS!!!
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Rowe, the ONLY person to say "Wait a minute, I like some of these men" was Art Gurl. Don't you sistas in any way find that embarrassing?




HUH??????

What are you implying.......???

Why dont you just leave the sistas alone...........since we should be embarrassed!



Yanno....im done, i'll comment no more on this BS!!!

It's not too late for a denial ya know...

Embarrassed that there are brilliant and ambitious young black men (artists, writers, scholars, etc.) that none of you sistas saw fit to step up to the plate and claim as your own when I dangled that out as a possibility...

That's BS????
Ok Frenchy...as usual I will be the sole voice to agree with your statement that there is a double standard. And as you have said, we are talking about WHAT IS

For example:

Woman has sex with lots of me = whore
Man has sex with lots of women = stud

I saw a report that said that men and women's have different brain so women look at things in the long term were as men look at the short term. I think we often forget we are creatures of nature. I'm not trying to make an excuse for this behavior but just trying to better understand it.

It was said that men don't care about certain aspects of women i.e. their careers, education etc. And I would say that men should take these things into consideration. But looks are a first priority for a lot of men...and sometimes the only priority.

But in one post it, and as I said earlier, this is a natural thing. Do or should we expect men and women to look at things in the same manner? Men are from Mars Women are from Venus.

In my view, it appears that men don't have but need to have better and more mature criteria for choosing a mate also.
I will respectfully disagree with portions of your post. To suggest men only view things in the short term is suspect. To further assert that looks rule over all is suspect. Many of us said that core values & personality carry the day. The physical is the initial attractor, but not the permanent attractor. What that means is a less attractive women with personality has to work a little harder to get a guy to stick around to notice those core values. The same applies for men. Is that fair? Maybe not, but it's honest.

A person can have degrees, status, & wealth and still be lousy in relationships. So choosing by those criteria guarantees nothing.

No one said the ladies do not deserve "doctors or Denzel's" (we know it's metaphor & hyperbole, so stop telling us that ladies!) or dream men. They do! We are trying to understand what is ultimately important to ladies in finding a mate. And yes, there are some commonalities that can be brought forth. Once those common core qualities are stated (because they haven't been!), maybe we can have honest, sincere discussion & assessment of the criteria.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
A person can have degrees, status, & wealth and still be lousy in relationships. So choosing by those criteria guarantees nothing.

No one said the ladies do not deserve "doctors or Denzel's"


I also want to be clear that many of the examples I put out are people with ADVANCED degrees who are making serious contributions to the world but who might make $40,000-$90,000 versus $100,000-$150,000/yr - and some of them ARE Doctors but not MDs. It's just that these people deal in the world of ideas/knowledge and don't have monetary gain or more conventional types of prestige/status as a motivator. I was deliberately trying to gauge the female response to a group of very educated and ambitious professionals who were not high-end wage earners - but who earn a substantially better living than a janitor. I was also trying to bring in other qualities (talent, drive, ambition, creativity, intelligence, etc.) besides obvious wealth/power/ status that might be desireable in a mate.

So far, ONLY Art Gurl has expressed any interest.

This is not very different from Rowe posting pics of African Models and asking us guys what was wrong with us for having such a limited notion of female beauty. It's all well and good when us guys are being upbraided for being severely shortsighted.

The sad thing is that I was inclined to agree with Rowe. But I'm not feeling the same vibe from the other side on this issue. And I find it extremely disturbing that all I'm getting back from Sistas is "I'm not settling for Janitors" and "these aren't cream of the crop" types of answers. Because the residual feeling is that the only value attached to an ideal mate is purely monetary. I.e. Quality=high end paying job? Can it be that the women aren't demanding quality mates or the right to pursue whoever they like so much as the right to be greedy without the accusation of being gold diggers? Wink

I don't know the answer to this question but I repeat: no one but Art Gurl has issued a denial. Every one else has hemmed and hawed, remained silent, or for some mysterious reason expressed outrage that I should even go there. Why? And if that isn't a serious double standard, what is?

And isn't it embarrassing that I threw out a slate of what I would consider some of the finest out there and the sistas take a whiff and say no thanks?
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Hang in there HB - we are clearly stating our desire for an honest dialogue (if that wasn't clear before) about criteria in choosing a Black man. Yes, we have presented uncomfortable theories & questions. We may get uncomfortable answers & counter-theories, once we actually get some substantive ones. Now the ball is in the ladies' court. Let's see what happens. Maybe a new thread is in order...
quote:
Here's a helpful hint - If you see a thread in the Den started by RadioRaheem and you click it and pictures start to come up, click your Back button and leave the thread!


I don't need to click on every thread to know what to expect.

quote:
The images must make you very uncomfortable, because you've lead the counter campaign.


Considering the media already bombards us with images of Black women as sluts and hoes, yes I do find these images offensive, and I do become uncomfortable looking at them. I imagine it's the same feeling that you may get whenever you turn on the news to see yet another Black man being handcuffed and hauled off to jail. My purpose for visiting African-America.org, and other progressive venues, is to get away from these demonizing images of Black people. Because I chose not to participate in the discussion Eye Candy for Sandye, I created a thread entitled Are Women Being Socially Conditioned To Be Attracted To Emasculate Men , which was created to challenge some women's ideas of masculinity, based on the pictures that I viewed in the Eye Candy for Sandye thread. Perhaps you should review it.

quote:
If the men we described are keepers, why is there a "man shortage"? Because the criteria set is excluding them, that's why.


There are certain occupations that this society values more than others. Janitor, maintenance man, trash man, and mail clerk are not those occupations. Whether the people who fill such positions are "good people" is irrelevant. These are not occupations that this society values. Perhaps it is because these occupations require very little skill, education, and they pay much less than occupations that require specialized skills and years of educational preparation. In London, for example, teachers are highly valued and very well paid, and their professional status is equivalent to that of a physician in the United States. Do I think that is unfair. YES. Can I do anything about it. NO.

Lastly, some aspects of our society have dramatically changed, while others have (and perhaps always will) remain the same. Though women are now capable of working and educating themselves, they are still expected to increase their wealth and status via marriage. Therefore, realistically speaking, what are the odds of a woman who has a Ph.D, and who is perhaps directing a staff at a major hospital, having anything in common with the local janitor? What would they discuss on a daily basis? This is not an issue of whether or not janitors are "good" or "bad" people, but of realistic compatibility.

Plese consider reading the article Women and The African-American Male-Female Relationship Dilemma: A Counseling Perspective by Patricia Davis-Bethea located in AA.org's Relationship Forum in order to get a better understanding of Black women's concerns in this respect.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
YOU, Art Gurl, ARE THE ONLY ONE AMONG THE WOMEN stepping forth to make these finer distinctions. The only one expressing a positive desire for ANY of the examples I gave.


Brother Honestbrother, please review these comments to see that the women participating in this thread have been supporting your arguments all along. Perhaps you have chosen to read only what you want to read?

quote:
Originally Posted by Rowe
Do you all think this culture's obsession with mega super stars has interferred with everyday people's interest in the opposite sex? Perhaps our standards are not too high, but have been influenced by someone else's standards.


quote:
Originally Posted By Frenchy
And I would take a nice, respectful Plain Joe over a Denzel any day of the week.


quote:
Originally posted by Vox (Taken From the Eye Candy For Sandye Thread):
Rowe, why don't you post some pictures of what YOU see as attractive males. I'm curious what Rowe's "eye candy" looks like.

I appreciate looking at all types of men, from all races and ethnic groups. I recently saw two very distinctive-looking Asian men who I thought were attractive. It all depends. However, I do usually go for what most people describe as the "intellectual" type (e.g., wears distinctive-looking eyewear, dresses conservatively, trench coat, brief case, etc. You know, Malcolm X looking type brothas, I suppose.

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I've read every thread you've referenced - I like to see what people have to say, even when I disagree with them frequently. I don't write anybody off (which has been my underlying point with this topic, BTW).

quote:
There are certain occupations that this society values more than others. Janitor, maintenance man, trash man, and mail clerk are not those occupations. Whether the people who fill such positions are "good people" is irrelevant. These are not occupations that this society values. Perhaps it is because these occupations require very little skill, education, and they pay much less than occupations that require specialized skills and years of educational preparation. In London, for example, teachers are highly valued and very well paid, and their professional status is equivalent to that of a physician in the United States. Do I think that is unfair. YES. Can I do anything about it. NO.


Yes, you can do something about it. You can stop being a sheep and following the popular sentiment of "society". Roll Eyes You don't know what you have in common with a blue collar worker unless to take the time to find out. You've made some very dangerous assumptions about the intellect of people in these jobs. Degrees do not ensure a high level of intelligence. Some of the dumbest people I know have MBAs, CPAs, and other advanced degrees & designations. I also know some high school graduates that could run circles around most of the posters at AA.org on a number of topics discussed here. But, continue assuming, it's your loss.

BTW, do you know any handymen or janitors? Those positions pay better than you know - maybe you have only seen people employed by your school system (they are likely underpaid). In the private sector, that work is usually outsourced. Many times, those handymen and janitors have a stake in the company.

quote:
Considering the media already bombards us with images of Black women as sluts and hoes, yes I do find these images offensive, and I do become uncomfortable looking at them. I imagine it's the same feeling that you may get whenever you turn on the news to see yet another Black man being handcuffed and hauled off to jail.



I represent me, not the Black race when I make my decisions. If you want to carry the impossible burden of trying to convince others that you're not like "those" Black folk, knock yourself out. Again, you have projected "hoes" & "sluts" on those pictures.

We're still waiting to see some of those criteria & standards for mates explicitly stated!!
I too await that list. Though I'm married, I've always wondered what it was the sisters were looking for. They tend to get rather vague. I remember those long walks to a table of sisters"”while in the "club""”and introducing myself. First question: "What do you do?" I was always dismissed. After a while I stopped, but I still wondered. Have you noticed that even the sisters without collage degrees have "high standards?"

Also, to Honest Bro, Thank you for this:

"Yes qty226 you are right. You are a black woman. You are the mother of civilization. And hence always right. And Pure. Your actions are always good and wise. Black women have the SOLE claim to racial victimhood. Queens without Kings ... We are only black men. We are not Kings. We are slime. Janitors who clean up the slime they love so much. We are N-I-G-G-A-Z: Never-Innocent-Gorillas-Getting-Ass-(in)-Zoos. Never up to any good. Lazy. Poor and incapable of earning 6 figures - which is what it takes to adequately support the black woman and provide the things she deserves. We are stupid. Liars. Having deep criminal tendencies. We have no love for or devotion to our children. Instead we LOVES us some white woman because of our vileness and low self-esteem. Black women deserve much better than us. They deserve the cream of the crop...."

And to qty226, especially, this:

"That is bullshit semantics. There IS a hierarchy. The top is the top. PERIOD. Men put women in a hierarchy as well. Don't come encouraging women to "broaden" jack shit. We already do. We make a whole lot of compromises because of the plethora of men who are not about SHIT who are circulating in the dating pool. We make the MOST compromises when it comes to dating, so men need to go kick rocks somewhere before they start doling out "advice." We would not be in this piss-poor situation if it wasn't for the failings of Black men. Ugh."

You see, I didn't know I was a failure...until my sisters told me...(Thank God my wife didn't think so!)
quote:
Instead we LOVES us some white woman because of our vileness and low self-esteem. Black women deserve much better than us. They deserve the cream of the crop...."

you posted it so I have to comment....not every black man dates a white woman due to the above.
My guy has dated black women, hispanic women and white women.
When he was in college he found a few issues where sistas did not want to date him coz he was black not brown, and he was a studious type. Now, he has a degree and a career, is older, works out, and has lots of life experience and he can date whoever he wants. He does get approached by women from time to time. The first question they ask is what do you do? When he's in a good mood, he just laughs and walks away. Coz he is NOT impressed. Women who ask that as the first question are in effect just asking, "hi, tell me what's in your bank account and what car do you drive, before I even bother talking to you". And that sucks. I don't see that as an AA.org sistas' style, but it does seem to happen an awful lot over there. Frown
.
quote:
Originaly posted by HonestBrother:
Yes qty226 you are right. You are a black woman. You are the mother of civilization. And hence always right. And Pure. Your actions are always good and wise. Black women have the SOLE claim to racial victimhood. Queens without Kings ... We are only black men. We are not Kings. We are slime. Janitors who clean up the slime they love so much. We are N-I-G-G-A-Z: Never-Innocent-Gorillas-Getting-Ass-(in)-Zoos. Never up to any good. Lazy. Poor and incapable of earning 6 figures - which is what it takes to adequately support the black woman and provide the things she deserves. We are stupid. Liars. Having deep criminal tendencies. We have no love for or devotion to our children. Instead we LOVES us some white woman because of our vileness and low self-esteem. Black women deserve much better than us. They deserve the cream of the crop...."


Folks, I want to be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that the above was intended as a PARODY. A parody of what seems to be an all too common complaint among women. I was in no way claiming to represent the actual views of a real person. But to our ears you ladies do sorta sound like this at times even if you don't use the actual words. Wink

Art Gurl, I realize there are many legitimate reasons to date interracially. The statement above was a spoof. In fact, your guy friend's experience sounds very familiar to me because I've lived it in my own life.

quote:
Originally posted by Thayfen:
You see, I didn't know I was a failure...until my sisters told me...(Thank God my wife didn't think so!)


But the sistas need to reread this statement. It's profound. And an experience had by all too many hard working black men. Again I have a Ph.D., several other degrees (one from an Ivy League school) and I've had sistas treat me like I'm not shit.

Lastly, even when I was a 20 year old janitor, I took philosophy books with me on my lunch break and I loved Mozart and classical music: You don't know what you have in common with someone simply based on their job title, folks.
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quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originaly posted by HonestBrother:
Yes qty226 you are right. You are a black woman. You are the mother of civilization. And hence always right. And Pure. Your actions are always good and wise. Black women have the SOLE claim to racial victimhood. Queens without Kings ... We are only black men. We are not Kings. We are slime. Janitors who clean up the slime they love so much. We are N-I-G-G-A-Z: Never-Innocent-Gorillas-Getting-Ass-(in)-Zoos. Never up to any good. Lazy. Poor and incapable of earning 6 figures - which is what it takes to adequately support the black woman and provide the things she deserves. We are stupid. Liars. Having deep criminal tendencies. We have no love for or devotion to our children. Instead we LOVES us some white woman because of our vileness and low self-esteem. Black women deserve much better than us. They deserve the cream of the crop...."


Folks, I want to be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that the above was intended as a PARODY. A parody of what seems to be an all too common complaint among women. I was in no way claiming to represent the actual views of a real person. But to our ears you ladies do sorta sound like this at times even if you don't use the actual words. Wink

Art Gurl, I realize there are many legitimate reasons to date interracially. The statement above was a spoof. In fact, your guy friend's experience sounds very familiar to me because I've lived it in my own life.

quote:
Originally posted by Thayfen:
You see, I didn't know I was a failure...until my sisters told me...(Thank God my wife didn't think so!)


But the sistas need to reread this statement. It's profound. And an experience had by all too many hard working black men. Again I have a Ph.D., several other degrees (one from an Ivy League school) and I've had sistas treat me like I'm not shit.

Lastly, even when I was a 20 year old janitor, I took philosophy books with me on my lunch break and I loved Mozart and classical music: You don't know what you have in common with someone simply based on their job title, folks.


off
HB, just curious, but how did you jump from janitor to doctor? That's a catapultic leap.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
off
HB, just curious, but how did you jump from janitor to doctor? That's a catapultic leap.


And this is precisely the point the sistas are missing. Because I'm brilliant, man... You never know what kind of potential you're going to find within your humble janitor laugh


I feel you, HB.....we both have humble beginnings ( I was a nursing assistant while in college) and I am kinda still in it...residency is a long trip. But I'm happy and there is light at the end of the tunnel.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
off
HB, just curious, but how did you jump from janitor to doctor? That's a catapultic leap.


And this is precisely the point the sistas are missing. Because I'm brilliant, man... You never know what kind of potential you're going to find within your humble janitor laugh


Wow, HB. You humility preceeds you. Roll Eyes laugh
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I never claimed to be humble ... All I know is that the only sista who believed in me when I was a janitor was my mom and I had doubts about her sometimes ... A little arrogance is the only way a brother can survive out here.


Tell me about it. Actually I would use the word confidence, but then again I've never met any shy arrogant people.

Btw, do you know how much does a landscaper makes? Would they be considered as a "blue collar" worker or "white collar" worker? I'm just curious because there's a movie coming out this weekend called Something New starring Sanaa Latham, I think. It's about a black female professional who falls in love with a white male landscaper.

The movie looks interesting.
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
Btw, do you know how much does a landscaper makes? Would they be considered as a "blue collar" worker or "white collar" worker? I'm just curious because there's a movie coming out this weekend called Something New starring Sanaa Latham, I think. It's about a black female professional who falls in love with a white male landscaper.


Blue Collar vs. White Collar can be very misleading when it comes to salaries. Some so-called blue collar jobs can earn more than some white collar jobs. For example, a construction worker - especially a skilled one - can earn more than some desk jobs.

I think the distinction is more about the nature of the work. Blue collar is manual labor. It's physical. So I'd call a landscaper blue collar definitely.

But everyone knows that a white landscaper is worth more than a brother who works in a white skyscraper. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
the only sista who believed in me when I was a janitor was my mom and I had doubts about her sometimes ...

lol I know that's not funny, but it is. Wink

The last few responses reminded me of two extremely cool work friends from way back, Jenny & Malclom.
I used to work with Jenny and one day she introduced me to one of the Reps/Suppliers called Malcolm. Nice guy, he had his own partnership in a retail office supply store. He also had a great sense of humour and was very left wing. Malcolm was 40+ when I met him. Both had had divorces and each had a teenage child. Malcolm hated elitism of any kind, so every tme anyone asked what he 'did' for a living he'd deliberately say he was a delivery boy delivering office supplies. Big Grin He would love to see the reactions from people, which ranged from "oh sure", to "at your age?" [speech bubble: what a loser] etc. etc. lol Jenny and Malcolm got married about 2 years after they met and as far as I know are still happily together.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
You've made some very dangerous assumptions about the intellect of people in these jobs. Degrees do not ensure a high level of intelligence. Some of the dumbest people I know have MBAs, CPAs, and other advanced degrees & designations.


I've made no assumptions about anyone's intelligence. I've given you possible explanations as for why some occupations are less valued than others. And though you and I may have encountered people from all walks of life who we thought were "dumb," our society still rewards people for continuing their education. Why else have many of AA.org's members (myself included) pursued advanced degrees? And before you give me the speech about how "college isn't for everyone," the fact still remains that the more education and specialized skills that one has, the more opportunities that one has at her or his disposal.

quote:
We're still waiting to see some of those criteria & standards for mates explicitly stated!!


Many veteran AA.org members are already familar with my family values and criteria for marriage. They know that I'm old school. I believe that only men should work and woman should stay home and manage the family and household. Both the man and woman should never work simutaneously, especially if there are young children involved (review my family and children discussions for reasons why).

Presently, in the Black community, however, the roles have completely reversed. And ultimately, this is the real reason why our relationships and communities are suffering. Black women are running Black communities. Black women are paying the bills, paying for mortgages, car notes, and day care expenses practically on their own, while the men sit around complain about "why can't you just give a brotha some slack?" No one seems to want to discuss this matter though. We'd rather be distracted from this issue by having trivial ongoing squabbles that have anything to do with the status of our communities. Brother Honestbrother posted a topic awhile ago encouraging people to discuss what we should do to rebuild our communities. Only one person responded to thread, but the problems aren't going anywhere. Women making poor mate choices does not take away from the fact that a disproportionate number of Black men are not pursuing higher education (compared to Black women), are crowding jails, and are not fully benefitting from what society has to offer. Period. Therefore, it doesn't matter what our criteria is, none of these can be met until we deal with these issues.

But for those who must know, here are my personal criteria:

Finances/Education

  • Advanced degree and/or earns enough to independently support a family, including sending children to private schools and financing college tuitions.

  • Has a very strong appreciation for education.

  • Has good credit, manages money well, pays bills ON TIME.

  • Is well read, not illiterate.

    Personal Development

  • Has strong convictions about the state of the Black community. Takes full responsibility for it, doesn't shift blame onto the women or punkishly uses women as scapegoats for what is happeining in his community.

  • Holds very traditional values.

  • Believes men should take responsibility for their communities, men should have leadership roles in the community.

  • Is compassionate, has a strong take-charge character, is loving, caring, has integrity, and is dedicated and committed to a cause.

    Health/Spirituality

  • Very health conscious. Eats very little meat product or dairy.

  • Believes prevention is the best medicine.

  • Has a very natural and organic way of living (spiritually conscious).

  • Prefers foods that are as close to their natural state as possible.
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    • "The point is NOT that "janitors aint shit" or however else things were apparently interpreted." (-Frenchy, 1/19/06, 6:10 PM, Page 2)

    • "And I would take a nice, respectful Plain Joe over a Denzel any day of the week. But that's not the issue." (-Frenchy, 1/19/06, 7:32 PM, Page 2)

    • "I am not talking about the merits of a blue collar man. There's nothing wrong with a janitor or whatever else. I've expressed that several times now." (-Frenchy, 1/20/06, 5:43 PM, Page 2)

    • "This is NOT about specifically dating Denzels and Halles. This is NOT about lowering dating expectations. It's not about speicifcally dating anyone at all really. It is an observation of WHAT IS." (-Frenchy, 1/21/06, 6:55 AM, Page 3)

    • "I think we all know that the "perfect" partner doesn't exist." (-Frenchy, 1/21/06, 2:36 PM, Page 3)

    • "And I NEVER said there was only the cream of the crop and everyone else was shit. In fact, I went out of my way to repeatedly point that out even though it was irrelevant to my point." (-Frenchy, 1/22/06, 4:04 PM, Page 3)

    • "I don't give a shit what makes a particular woman the "cream of the crop" to a man. I'm only saying that there is such a thing as the "cream of the crop" and that is what I am referring to when I talk about each gender being allowed to pursue "the best" freely without being admonished to settle for something less." (-Frenchy, 1/23/06, 12:12 AM, Page 4)

    • "This is NOT the point, AG. No one is encouraging women to date only a Denzel. No one is saying Denzels are the only quality men. No one is saying that we want the right to hold out for a Denzel. WOMEN SHOULD HAVE THE OPTION OF STRIVING FOR A "DENZEL" WITHOUT HEARING A BUNCH OF FRIGGIN LIP ABOUT HOW WE NEED TO REFOCUS/REVISE/RETHINK BECAUSE WE DON'T DESERVE IT OR BECAUSE WE'RE NOT GIVING THE "LOWER-RUNG" OF BROTHAS A CHANCE OR WHATEVER OTHER REASON." (-Frenchy, 1/23/06, 5:41 PM, Page 4)


    quote:
    We're still waiting to see some of those criteria & standards for mates explicitly stated!!

    Then you need to open up a new thread, D. Because that has never been what THIS thread was about. What you hope to gain from that, I don't know, because it will be a repeat of this thread. Women will answer the question about the ideal and men will shoot it down, like this:

    quote:
    But my point is not that women need to "lower" their vision. They need to broaden/expand their vision.

    Denzel/Doctor/Lawyer is tunnel vision.


    quote:
    I'm glad my mom wasn't such an elitest. Otherwise, I might not be here! Maybe I'm an exception, but my non-Denzel, non high-status dad did a HELL of a job as a father (and my Mom's pretty happy too!).


    quote:
    Women who think they're "lowering" standards by dating people on the list above DESERVE to be single


    quote:
    This is why guys like me wind up with white women.


    Etc.

    And this is when we are not even articulating what it is exactly we are looking for/hoping for. The mere suggestion of wanting the best possible mate brings out this filthy crap. Just like I said all the way back on Page 2. I would certainly not participate in any discussion where I actually detailed what I'm looking for in a mate, just so people could glide right over what I actually say and launch into their histrionics. Perhaps the other ladies want to go down that road.

    With love,
    French hat
    quote:
    Originally posted by Frenchy:
    [And this is when we are not even articulating what it is exactly we are looking for/hoping for. The mere suggestion of wanting the best possible mate brings out this filthy crap. Just like I said all the way back on Page 2. I would certainly not participate in any discussion where I actually detailed what I'm looking for in a mate, just so people could glide right over what I actually say and launch into their histrionics. Perhaps the other ladies want to go down that road.

    With love,
    French hat


    You can have whatever standards you want and at this point I've lost interest in the discussion. But I deny that the statements you point out, taken within the original context, constituted "filthy crap". But whatever.... I'm done.
    quote:
    And this is when we are not even articulating what it is exactly we are looking for/hoping for. The mere suggestion of wanting the best possible mate brings out this filthy crap. Just like I said all the way back on Page 2. I would certainly not participate in any discussion where I actually detailed what I'm looking for in a mate, just so people could glide right over what I actually say and launch into their histrionics. Perhaps the other ladies want to go down that road.


    First, thanks for the love. kiss Nothing wrong with a spirited discussion! I think any set of criteria can be subject to analysis. Getting to the base reasons for preferences can be very enlightening. I'm curious about the women's preferences here & what drives those preferences. I do recognize that challenging a person's values & beliefs is the quickest way to create tension, but it's also a good way to garner understanding.

    This discussion can be whatever the participants choose to make it.

    Sincerely with heart
    quote:
    Originally posted by folobatuyi:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Rowe:
    I would have, if you didn't think wearing dress up clothes was gay. Smile


    Oh boy, Rowe is flirting!


    What's the matter! Didn't I give you some lovin a few days ago? Huh? I should have warned you that I'm too much woman to be satisfied with just one man. Big Grin
    Hello, Max here! I just wanted to make sure I understand what Frechy is saying:

    When black men lust after Halle Berry-types, they are not reprimanded, because it is expected/accepted-practice for black men to aspire to have a woman like Halle without any REAL justification.

    But...

    When black women lust after Denzel-types (even when the black women who ARE justified in wanting someone like him), they're harshly criticized as being materialistic, shallow and hated-on for overlooking that funky-ass chimney-sweeper with the "heart of gold".

    If this is the double standard that Frenchy is talkin about..then that's kinda fucked up.

    Oh yeah, Pam from Martin is HOT. I always wanted to give her a ride on my long, slippery tongue. Razz
    In regards to Black men in America, I love and support Black men 100% and I always have. I am a bi-racial woman (mother is black father is white) and I have always been attracted to Black men only, now in the past year I did go out on dates with White men and they are okay but, I just prefer the Black man no other race of men can compare. No, I don't want a black thug but, I wouldn't want a white thug either. Black folks love to keep stereo type stuff going. Sisters have alway been very critical of things I as a lightskin, slim, long hair (did I mention "Good hair") Smile have experienced the negotive comments all my life and I have to be the most down to earth person anyone has ever met. My thing is ladies just look at it this way when you see a brother with a White woman; just think he was looking for you but he couldn't find ya so he settled. Brothers stop lumping all of the sisters together we aren't all loud, controlling, bossy and have attitudes. The only time I have a problem with a Black man dating a White woman is when I know that he only dates White women because he thinks they are better. We as Black woman truly need to start dating out of our race more and stop focusing on what the Black man is doing, they will always come back home ladies we are Queens. There are tons of White men out there who would love to date Black women but, we are so busy starring Brothers with White women down we miss them. I moved from NY a year ago where there were tons of wonderful Black men to date to Phoenix, Arizona where there are 5 Black men and 4 are gay and met and married my handsome, a great man,sexy intelligent, well rounded, caring, great cook did I say HOT husband and yes he is Black. We married after only 6 months and we are the best thing to ever happen to eachother. Another words all is not lost if you want a good Black man they are out there but check yourself first be honest with you and love you. The same with Brothers know what the hell you want and go for it, if you want to date White woman go the hell on but don't turn your back on all sisters just because you dated a few bad apples.
    I think after my experiences i would be very careful of dating anyone. In my experience, for a black man, being a loving man that has a good heart does not really matter.

    I've even had this told to me directly and with actions. That to me speaks volumes. I have never dated a white woman and don't find them attractive ( as they would have to look like a sista ) however i will keep my options open for a foreign sista.

    BTW, i read this thread and I like all shades of sistas but i've always gravitatied to more of the dark chocolate variety.

    HonestBrotha, have you even got to know a sista from other countries? Like France or Brazil or Trinidad? The problem is this culture.
    quote:
    Originally posted by LovNThySoul:
    I think after my experiences i would be very careful of dating anyone. In my experience, for a black man, being a loving man that has a good heart does not really matter.

    I've even had this told to me directly and with actions. That to me speaks volumes. I have never dated a white woman and don't find them attractive ( as they would have to look like a sista ) however i will keep my options open for a foreign sista.

    BTW, i read this thread and I like all shades of sistas but i've always gravitatied to more of the dark chocolate variety.

    HonestBrotha, have you even got to know a sista from other countries? Like France or Brazil or Trinidad? The problem is this culture.


    i like how you like the dark chocolate Wink

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