As usual I'm trying to figure out things at a basic, fundamental, "Can you Break-It-Down For ME!" kind of level. So, I was wondering... Just how can you tell?

In light of the Rush Limbaugh Fiasco with soooo many people saying that his comments may have been "racial" but not "racist", I want to know exactly how do you know when somebody is. (Note that plenty of Whites feel that mentioning race equates to racism when it comes to Blacks making certain statements...)

I mean... Does anyone ever really expect a "racist" to say, "For the record, I am a racist!"??

Like a lot of things we are good at saying what something is not and do a very poor job of defining/describing what something is - racist acts/statements in this case. Also, there seems to be some ~AVERSION~ , some hesistation by a lot of people of using the term RACIST.

Personally, I'm more concerned about institutional racism and think UseFul Bigots like Rush are... well Useful Distractions from the real underlying issues. It seems that that's all most people think racism consist of - some one single, solitary, isolated somebody (and every now and then a group) saying or doing something racially offensive.

-----------------------------------------

I also would like to hear some thoughts on the idea of Calling for His Resignation...

Actually, I want to juxtapose that - the idea that White people in positions of influence/power "shouldn't" say those kind of things - with the notion that we have as African-Americans that Whites always try to "choose" our leaders.

Are they the same? Why or why not?
Original Post
Nmaginate, I won't address your questions right now, but I'm with you; I'm far more concerned with institutional racism than clowns like Limbaugh.

Remove the institutional barriers to capital, remove the institutional mindset that Black=inept or criminal, remove the institutional belief that Black children can't succeed, educationally, remove the Black held belief that the "Whiteman's ice is colder" (another form of institutional racism); and Limbaugh (and those of his ilk, both Black and White, will fade from view.
Blaq people will NEVER get out of the condition we are in as long as we are waiting for white people to accept us. We must get beyond that mind state. As long as we complain "when are they going to change, why don't you like us" we will forever be in the bagg we are in.

Rush L. is an idiot on 2 levels.
1.He knows nothing about the NFL. Donovann McNabb is a good qb. If no one beleives me name 5 better current qb's. He has been to the Pro Bowl twice, and Philly has been in the last 2 NFC championships. So the claim that he is overated is overated.

2. Maybe this one is no so stupid.. But I think he knew exactly what he was doing.. Why would ESPN hire him anyway?

I am more mad at Michael Irving and the other dude on the panel, why did they not say anything?

McNabb was right, he said even if the camera man had to put down the camera and get in limbaughm grill, he should have done it.

I cannot expect much from M. Irving, being a Maimi "grad" though..
BLAQFIST??? Did you see CountDown when it happened?

It doesn't sound like it. I watch it and was watching it when it happened. There was no, "Rush! You're a Fat A$$ Racist" responses but his comment didn't go unchallenged. Matter of fact, Tom Jackson basically defended McNabb in football terms the way you did, though I don't remember his exact words. (see my post on the other thread)
What makes a comment about race in sports, education, etc. racist is whether or not there is a claim that says one race doesn't possess the capacity, mentally or otherwise or the skill to do some important task.

For something to qualify as racism it has to be a 'put down' and particularly one that implies one's own race does it better AND that whatever it is ...is integral to the whole scheme of things.

White Men Can't Jump, for instance, is more of a stereotype than a malicious put down because the same Black person that says that will be the biggest fan of the Brent Barry's and will quickly embrace a 'positive' stereotype of Whites being good outside shooters.

Dusty Baker's comments... What was demeaning towards Whites in his comments? What critical baseball skills or ability did he say that Whites lacked that Blacks and Hispanics were suppose to have? "Taking the heat"? What does that have to do with the ability to play baseball skills-wise? What does that has to do with understanding how to play that game?

Rush Limbaugh's comments are very different in that respect. Though he singled out one player, he spoke in general terms about basically all Black quarterbacks because society and/or the media somehow in his mind needed proof that a Black quarterback (not necessarily McNabb) could "succeed".

Right there he is casting doubt on whether Blacks have the capacity to play the quarterback position and at the very least the Black McNabb without media hype. That was, in fact, and intended a put down. "I hate to have to say this..." Yeah right!

He basically said Blacks, or McNabb, need a "handout" from the media via lack of criticism or graciously granted (over)hype in order to be considered good quarterback(s).

There's no defense for his statements.
BTW, Isiah Thomas' Larry Bird comments would be Black racist/prejudicial comments, IMO, and perhaps the only one comparable to Rush's. But even that falls short of implying that Whites can't play or aren't good or capable.

So let's be clear about what we're talking about.
Tom Jackson., did offer a retort, but not the one I would have given.. I am sick and tired of having to take the racial high ground while crackers take it to the gutter all the time.

Michael Irving sat there like a not on a freakin logg. The stupid niggah. I am sorry ya'll but this has got me a little worked up.
In all honestly though we have got to start calling eachother out also. Isaihs comments while maybe true, should not be said in public. black people do get away w/ alot of race issues that white people could not get away w/.

the whole "white men caint jump" needs a muzzle on it also.
quote:
Isaihs comments while maybe true, should not be said in public. black people do get away w/ alot of race issues that white people could not get away w/.

I don't understand this. If we can get away with "more" then how can we feel like Whites views can't be tolerated?

Maybe I'm just coming up with a one-sided rationale to justify some of the Black statements but seriously... are we talking about equivalent statements or not? How so?
Great topic Nmaginate! Thanks!!

quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

. . . but I'm with you; I'm far more concerned with institutional racism than clowns like Limbaugh.

Remove the institutional barriers to capital, remove the institutional mindset that Black=inept or criminal, remove the institutional belief that Black children can't succeed, educationally, remove the Black held belief that the "Whiteman's ice is colder" (another form of institutional racism); and Limbaugh (and those of his ilk, both Black and White, will fade from view.


What is "institutional racism" though? Isn't it just the collective behaviors of individual racists? All of a sudden you string together racism from Rush Limbaugh with his conservative peers in radio (Savage, Hannity, Reagan, O'Reilly, North, Liddy et al) - and it seems you have the foundation of an institutional attitude about black folks permeating through talk radio. IMO, let's not understate the impact of individual acts of racism.


There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela
quote:
Originally posted by blaqfist:

Isaihs comments while maybe true, should not be said in public. black people do get away w/ alot of race issues that white people could not get away w/.



Well, I grew up in Boston and can appreciate the bias toward white athletes that Isaiah talked about. In baseball - Fred Lynn is the wonder boy, yet Jim Rice is an "angry black man". It even still pisses me off that there is a "Ted Williams Tunnel" in Boston when who had a greater impact on sports in Boston than Bill Russell (11 Championships as both a player and coach, 5 time NBA MVP, 12 time All-Star)?

I'm not sure about this one. Most of the time when blacks talk about racial inconsistencies in this country it is framed as complaining or "racial". White folks cry that "if I said that . . ." Whatever . . . Roll Eyes

BTW - if the racial scales of justice were even in this country I'd be much more concerned about black folks "getting away" with things vis-a-vis race.


There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela
You're right MBM... But, at least what I'm saying is that the knee-jerk, reflex response to those individual racists foster the idea that only some isolated extreme person hold those views.

I understand how they represent their millions of listeners who hold the same views but that too foster the idea that all racism is a conscious and focused, conspiratorial engagement. That's the alibi of those that don't feel they are racist when their views aren't as extreme of a particular conscious, everyday effort.

I just re-read (or read more) of PBS RACE - The POWER Of ILLUSION. This link precisely paints how even "good" White people who would never say the things Rush and Sean say are complicit in institutional racism. It represents a lot of the things we know but is laid out in a pretty persuasive manner, IMO.

{{ One of the things about understanding racism is to understand it has a material reality. }}
quote:
What are some difficulties in addressing inequality?

In this country we have an ambivalence about wanting to hold on to an ideal - the notion of equality - but not in such a way that it fundamentally changes white privilege.

A lot of the ways that we've thought about race, and certainly the way we think about it now, is that the country is basically fine. So whites can say, "I'm for integrated schools, but I don't want my children going to integrated schools. I'm for the idea of integrated schools. I like that idea, but I don't like the reality."
MBM...

Alright, take off your Love of Black People hat for a second. I know... you could never do that but I want you honest, objective critique on the criterion I tried to make with respect to the comments Blacks have made. Honestly, in terms of logic and truth do you think I'm off base.

I mean... are we really talking about racism when Blacks speak about race in the media. (Was Isiah's statement made directly in the media? Or merely surfaced from a second-hand source. Not doubting that he said it.)

BTW, I hated Bird. I couldn't stand him playin' against my Dr. J. 76ers!
If Rush doesn't like McNabb, then just say you don't like McNabb. Race shouldn't have to be a measuring stick for a person's skill levels.

And if he's actually serious about questioning the ability of black QBs performing well in an NFL game, then he's 15 years too late.

Has he forgotten about Super Bowl XXII? Doug Williams, QB of the Washington Redskins? Super Bowl MVP? Defeated the Denver Broncos 42-10. And they were behind 10-0, it was a come from behind victory.

Super Bowl XXII was or is my generation's version of Joe Louis victory over Max Schmeling or Jesse Owens defeating the Nazis in the 1936 Olympics with four gold medals.


Nuff said.
@Huey....have you ever heard of Tiger Woods? Venus and Serena Williams?....They are the closest thing to Jesse Owens, not Doug Williams...
quote:
Originally posted by ThaWatcher:
Can someone refresh my memory as to what Isiah said about Bird?

Isiah said that if Bird was Black that he would be "just another player" insinuating that Bird was overrated/overhyped.

That's all I can remember. Dunno if it surfaced through the grapevine or if it was taken from a direct interview with a reporter after a game or something but it most assuredly was said when they were both playing...
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

Isiah said that if Bird was Black that he would be "just another player" insinuating that Bird was overrated/overhyped.



I guess Larry got the last laugh though didn't he? brosmile


There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela
quote:
Originally posted by ThaWatcher:
Can someone refresh my memory as to what Isiah said about Bird?


I think it was during the 1986 NBA Eastern Conference Playoffs, where the Celtics beat the Detroit Pistons to go on to the Finals, which they beat the Lakers that year.

Anyway, Isaiah of the Pistons said something about Bird after the Celtic became victorious, obvious he was upset his team lost, and also at the media's alleged over-praising of Bird for his basketball skills on the court, he said something like, "If Bird wasn't white, he'd be just another black guy in the NBA."

I hope that helps.
Both statements (Isiah's and Rush's) could be perceived a myriad of ways...I guess its all about who's doing the perceiving...Personal experience is usually the determining factor of perception....It's really hard (almost impossible) to interpret statements objectively when race is involved.....
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

I mean... are we really talking about racism when Blacks speak about race in the media.


IMO, most of the time, no. It amazes me how sensitive whites are to any kind of racially tinged statements or bias when it might be directed toward them - yet obviously can be so extraordinarily obtuse about their own racism.


There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela
...the NBA employed double standards on bigotry. In 1987, after the Boston Celtics beat the Detroit Pistons in the seven-game East finals due to Larry Bird's fantastic performance, Isiah Thomas remarked that, sure, Bird was good, but, "If Bird was black, he'd be just another good guy." He said this to confirm his then-teammate Dennis Rodman's racist comments. Never one to miss out on media publicity, Rodman whined that Bird was "overrated" and received media praise and attention only "because he is white."

1


2
quote:
Originally posted by ThaWatcher:
@Huey....have you ever heard of Tiger Woods? Venus and Serena Williams?....They are the closest thing to Jesse Owens, not Doug Williams...


@ThaWatcher...I know about Tiger and congratulations to him. Have you heard of Doug Williams? He was around BEFORE Tiger Woods or Serena and Venus Williams.

In fact, Althea Gibson and Arthur Ashe (R.I.P to both) were around before the Williams sisters.

I said Doug Williams because no other black quarterback before him ever appeared in the Super Bowl, let alone the starting quarterback in the Super Bowl.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

...the NBA employed double standards on bigotry. In 1987, after the Boston Celtics beat the Detroit Pistons in the seven-game East finals due to Larry Bird's fantastic performance, Isiah Thomas remarked that, sure, Bird was good, but, "If Bird was black, he'd be just another good guy." He said this to confirm his then-teammate Dennis Rodman's racist comments. Never one to miss out on media publicity, Rodman whined that Bird was "overrated" and received media praise and attention only "because he is white."



Don't white folks say this about blacks every day? "The only reason why he got that job was because he's black". Etc. Etc. What is offensive about Thomas' words? They acknowledge a racial double standard in America that shouldn't surprise anyone.


There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela
quote:
Personal experience is usually the determining factor of perception....It's really hard (almost impossible) to interpret statements objectively when race is involved.....

I don't by that personal experience bull...

According to info. I've read and living in the Mid-West as my personal experience backdrop, the Avg. White person lives in 80% plus White communities versus 50% for Blacks even in the most concentrated areas which, of course, aren't nearly as numerous. So it's a complete crock to think that all those Whites that may hardly ever come into contact with Blacks, let alone in a situation where Blacks are their social equals (job position wise)... it's ridiculous to think they all have personal one-on-one experience with Blacks that inform their opinions.

My wife comes home seems like once a week telling me about some ignorant a$$ stereotypes one of her fellow employees has of Blacks.

And that anecdote tells you exactly that some of that junk is just hearsay. And some of it made up. Especially that damn memo that must have been sent all around the country that whenever a Black person gets a job over a White person that its because of some unfair AA measure.

Read that piece from PBS then come back and talk to me.
@Huey...Doug Williams was "one and done"....I don't mean to take anything away from his victory, but equating him with Jesse Owens is a stretch....
@Nmag
If personal experience isn't the major influence of perception then what is? Why is it that 2 can have different perceptions of the same event?
quote:
Don't white folks say this about blacks every day? "The only reason why he got that job was because he's black". Etc. Etc. What is offensive about Thomas' words? They acknowledge a racial double standard in America that shouldn't surprise anyone.

MBM, I want you to be objective. Just because White people say it doesn't make it fair game for Blacks... (nothing personal)

But does that in any way demean Whites to the point whether it goes to the core of their ability or capacity to play or compete on that level?

Al Campanis (?) suggested that Blacks didn't have what it took to be Baseball Managers, right??

Doesn't that promote the racist idea that Blacks are not intelligent beings? Something in line with racist slavery teaching?

Where is that element in any of the Black statements? Huh ThaWatcher??

I suggest there is an objective way to look at this. So again I beg to differ with you, Watcher.
Watcher...

Be for real. There are a lot of White people that see stuff on TV and expect that to be what Black folks are like. I've had untold number of Whites who told me I looked like Mike Tyson or some Black person in the Media, definitely suggesting that they have limited experience with Black people.

So... in starting your search... look at the media then look at history and the perceptions that are formed from a distance.

You need to do some reading.

There are plenty of second hand stories like the one I said about my wife that are the basis of what a lot of White people submit as the reasons why they feel that way. And let me say... their stories for the most part aren't about them being offended by something Blacks have done to them...

Historically... what "personal experiences" caused White racist attitudes that brought us SLAVERY and JIM CROW?

Think!
Nmag, I'm not talking about the every incident of racism or stereotyping in US history. I'm talking about the average joe who watches ESPN. One man can look at Rush's comment and say "yeah that's true" and another man can hear it and say "what an idiot". The "it's true" person has probably experienced, seen, or heard about and incident of the media pumping somebody up because of color. The "what and idiot" person has never experienced, seen, or heard about the media overhyping and individual of color....the determining factor is personal experience....Don't you have to experience racism to know that it exists? That's really how you know if a person is racist...they make you experience it (or you perceive it)....that's the only way to truely "know"...
quote:
If personal experience isn't the major influence of perception then what is?

That's the question I was answering directly with my last post.

What are you now acting like you didn't say that?

And your question there ask about "perceptions"... A person doesn't have to have direct personal contact with another person to form an impression - aka a perception.

As to experiencing racism to know what it is...
That's what I would like to ask most White people who will at once say there is no racism cause they don't see it but they damn sure will tell you what it is.

Answer the question!! What did Blacks do to Whites to foster their perceptions that turned into racism via slavery and Jim Crow?
quote:
Why is it that 2 can have different perceptions of the same event?

Vantage point! And that doesn't have to include active participation.

Auto wreck...
Bystanders and the actually drivers are gonna have different views.

When people here about it or see it on the news they will formulate opinions/impressions/perceptions eventhough they were no where near it, especially if one of the parties involved had a "reputation" that proceeded them.

That's were history comes in.
*******************************************

Also what does the word PREJUDICE mean to you? And how does it relate to RACISM, "personal experience" and perceptions?

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on October 02, 2003 at 01:14 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by ThaWatcher:
@Huey...Doug Williams was "one and done"....I don't mean to take anything away from his victory, but equating him with Jesse Owens is a stretch....


No, it's not. Jesse's victory diminished the thought of Nazi "white" supremacy (at least) in sports. Plus, months after Al Campanis of the Dodgers said that blacks weren't qualified to be baseball managers or owners, people were questioning if the Washington Redskins have a chance in beating the Denver Broncos in the Super Bowl with a black quarterback. Maybe more similar to Jackie Robison than Jesse Owens since baseball and football are both team sports.
quote:
@nmag
If you want to get into Jim Crow and US slavery then post another thread....

You can do that... I was answering your question/opinion which you and I know you can't sustain.

The question is about the "experience" based "reality" of race perceptions not about Slavery and Jim Crow per se and you know that. You're just a sad excuse for someone with an argument. Can't defend it so you come up with tactics to avoid the scrutiny of your ridiculous ideas.
Nmag...I could post "the sky is blue" and you'd find some way to argue that point. If you want to debate Rush's statement (which I thought we were doing) then fine...Jim Crow can wait til another day...
Dude..

I started the thread!!!!

What's the title!!!!????????
quote:
If you want to debate Rush's statement (which I thought we were doing) then fine...Jim Crow can wait til another day...
Spoken like a true Escape Artist!

Ahh... What's the title/subject?

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on October 02, 2003 at 01:37 PM.]
Okay...If you want to go back to the original topic "How do you know if a person is racist", my answer is this: Either they do something that you that is "racist" (however you personally define it), you perceive as "racist", or someone tells you "so-and-so is racist" and you believe it....the only way that you can truely "know" is if you have a definition of racism, and you believe that you've experienced/perceived it.
quote:
If personal experience isn't the major influence of perception then what is?

I answered that question one that you have promoted more than once here. I did so by saying the following... which, btw, goes very far into how we define racism of which most would say is based on non-experiential prejudice. Otherwise, we're talking oxymoron. Prejudice by definition has nothing to do with "personal experience"...
quote:
A person doesn't have to have direct personal contact with another person to form an impression - aka a perception. (We all have "perceptions" of TV personalities though we have NEVER met them.)

As to experiencing racism to know what it is...
That's what I would like to ask most White people who will at once say there is no racism cause they don't see it but they damn sure will tell you what it is.

Answer the question!! What did Blacks do to Whites to foster their perceptions that turned into racism via slavery and Jim Crow?

Watcher...

You seem to be retreating from your once firm premise:
quote:
Personal experience is usually the determining factor of perception...

Why is that?

At first you were certain that RACISM and views on race were products of "personal experience" and that "perceptions" about race/racism are all filtered through this ambiguous "personal experience" that implies that those perceptions are specifically informed by "personally experienced" racism.

Now you're softening and saying that views about racism can be either EXPERIENCED or PERCEIVED...???
quote:
the only way that you can truely "know" is if you have a definition of racism, and you believe that you've experienced/perceived it.

Let's re-examine your initial premise by doing a little word substitution. Since you have basically equated what might have been one's actual experience with what might have only been one's perception... We will replace the word "experience" with the word "perception".
quote:
Personal perception is usually the determining factor of perception...

If personal perception isn't the major influence of perception then what is?

Does really make sense huh??

Well... you shouldn't be so hard on yourself. You tried! Eek

According to you, one would have to have a race "experience" before you have a definitive race "perception"... unless I don't know what the hell you meant by DETERMINING FACTOR and MAJOR INFLUENCE.

Logically... your whole aSSumption falls apart! thumbsup

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on October 02, 2003 at 02:21 PM.]
Poor Watcher,

Man you don't have a clue...as an online instructor students do not have a clue who you really are, especially with that plain azz slave name given to me generations ago.......I get papers on affirmative action that indicate they REALLY think i'm white....you get everything from blacks are getting something and are unqualified to quotas for blacks and even diversity is bad and not really necessary for competitiveness.......bro start to read some broad social literature daily. You will see what is REALLY going on across the racial landscape.......

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