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quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael:
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
In a nutshell, aphterthought, the stigma of the N-word will die when white supremacy dies.


.....but numerous Black people call each other the N-word on a daily basis, as if being called the N-word is some badge of honor!

....Sure can't blame this activity on white supremacy or racist Caucasians!


WHite supremacy permiates every fascet of society, it effects everything, including its VICTIMS.... Or does your dumb a** think we were/are walking around Africa calling each other the N word in mass. Oh, I forgot it developped from a West African anguage sub-group.

Get a clue White man.


...for the Oshun Ausets of the world. ....last time I checked, I have years of experience of being Black to which I could care less as to what you think of me. You are in no way an ingredient to my success!

The many hardships faced during my life have come from the disgracefulness, the treason, the greed, the sleaze of Black people, and not "the Bush Administration or any racist Caucasian"!


....same response. Continuing to blame our own stupidity and ignorance on white supremacy is useless. No other ethnic group spends so much time dwelling on such nonsense. This being who truly fits that description of being ignorant, backwards, perverted.

Most other ethnic groups are too busy making it possible for all kinds of opportunities, so much so, they just don't have time to cry about, "I'm being held down by a group of racist Caucasians, etc., etc., etc."

....and the biggest deterent to the advancement of Black is not racism, but rather the ineptness of our own community to move forward to protect our own interests.


.....but numerous Black people call each other the N-word on a daily basis, as if being called the N-word is some badge of honor!

....Sure can't blame this activity on white supremacy or racist Caucasians!


Sincerely,

Michael Lofton
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
VOX:

I never said that we ADD to it or even contribute to it by using it so freely.
This is not a genuine point. I can accept whatever part where I responded a little off because of what you were responding to (Aphterthought)... but the idea that we keep the Stigma intact is still ridiculous.

This is ridiculous and doesn't make your Stop Using The Word point:
Refusing to use the word will keep the stigma of the word intact, just like the continuous ignorant embrace of it will keep the stigma intact.

If or since the Stigma is intact either way?
Then what forwards your point about the value of stopping it (stop using the N-Word)? Since you related all of this to the Stigma?


Fine, Nmaginate: you've found me out. All these years I've tried to hide it, but you've laid it bare: I feel that the n-word is stigmatic. I feel that the use of it would keep it stigmatic, and that the non-use of it would keep it stigmatic. It brings me great shame to walk around believing such a thing, which is why I would go to such lengths to lie and obfuscate in discussion threads about it, and engage in ridiculous arguments about it. Know any good support groups? Roll Eyes
Well, I'm mainly being sarcastic; it's just that when you label a fairly obvious, straightforward, unarguable point "ridiculous," it sounds like you're being accusatory in some way. I know u're not, because you have a way of just coming out and saying what's on your mind, and you haven't come out and said anything like that. But the post is more out of annoyance on my part than actual suspicion of being accusatory.

quote:
but the idea that we keep the Stigma intact is still ridiculous.


What's ridiculous here? An action either adds to a stigma, removes a stigma, or has no effect whatsoever on a stigma. There is no 4th choice. If you don't believe that it adds to the stigma, and you don't believe it removes it, then you must agree with me that it has no effect. Since there is no 4th choice, for you to call the "no effect" conclusion ridiculous while you simultaneously believe that it neither adds to nor subtracts from the stigma, doesn't really make much sense.

The previous post was me being sarcastic, obviously, annoyed because you're creating fairly pointed debate out of what seems a 100% totally unarguable, inevitable conclusion (provided you agree that A & B are false), and I don't understand why.
Simply, if you feel there is "No Effect" then your conclusion that the word shouldn't be used, as I suggested, has little or no support.

So there is no 100% Unarguable statement you've made. Even your Slave Diet argument which, while a clear articulation of your earlier point about not carrying on "negative" traditions, presumes that Slave Diets were completely composed of foods not fit for human consumption -- as in nothing within their diets were healthy for them to eat. Such an analogy or illustration is lacking because it doesn't account for things that were "positive". Such an analogy rests on making the N-Word, "negative" in and of itself regardless of it's use and the Stigma that is independent of the use of the word.

While that may be how you see it and how you feel about it (it's negative or "bad" regardless), by way of your own analogy, you have failed to illustrate how the N-Word is inherently "negative", regardless of its use. Just like you didn't account for good or positive food items in the Slave Diet (and/or lifestyle) you did not account for things with respect to the use of the N-Word that are not exactly evidence of self-hatred -- e.g. If I'm endearing towards you, my choice of word-terms, isn't exactly evidence of self-hatred or a manifestation of trauma. It is, first and foremost, evidence of, perhaps, a poor choice of Terms Of Endearment. Really, nothing more or nothing less.

See? You're not judging the actions in such a case, you're saying using the word, in and of itself, is tantamount to self-hatred. Well, the actions when it comes to "Endearment" don't exactly bear that out, however tragicly odd we may find the use of that would in such cases.

Now, classify the clause "Keeping The Stigma Intact". Does it suggest that we, by way of using the N-Word:
Choice 1 = Add To Stigma;
Choice 2 = Help To Remove The Stigma; or
Choice 3 = Have No Effect On Stigma

Which one is it? I don't see it being Choice #3. So, yes, the more you continue, all you do is say even more ridiculous stuff to compensate for other ridiculous things you've said.

Your points are not connecting.
That is, unless you can say how this statement:
Refusing to use the word will keep the stigma of the word intact, just like the continuous ignorant embrace of it will keep the stigma intact.

... connects or rather supports this one:
If centuries of this exact same usage has done nothing to remove the stigma of the word, then that's not going to change now in the hip hop era. And we can conclude as well, that if most of the enslaved Africans were traumatized into some degree of self-hate, and their use of the word is absolutely identical in all respects to the way so many of us today use it, then can there really be much difference in the current level of trauma and self-hate, among those who continue to use it the same ways they did? Seems like reason enough to stop using it...

Now, your latter quoted statement is INTACT. No edits. But, ironically, the first sentence while it doesn't exactly sound like it was about the "NO EFFECT" idea... that sentence is in a paragraph that ends with SEEMS LIKE REASON ENOUGH TO STOP.

But you would have me believe those thoughts, even in the same paragraph, are somehow unconnected and one not really meant to support the other.

"I'm surprised..."

I bet you are.
quote:
Originally posted by Michael:...for the Oshun Ausets of the world. ....last time I checked, I have years of experience of being Black to which I could care less as to what you think of me. You are in no way an ingredient to my success!


I surely didn't expect you to care. Anyone who bashes their own people because of the circumstances we are in, created by someone else I might add, couldn't care what one of his own kind thinks of him.

Srrry for calling you a white man(if you aren't one) but when it quacks like a duck, I can't help but think it's one.

quote:
The many hardships faced during my life have come from the disgracefulness, the treason, the greed, the sleaze of Black people, and not "the Bush Administration or any racist Caucasian"!


OK, remember that the next time you get pulled over for driving while African/Black. It's your own fault!...lol

I can tell how much you love your people and humanity in general! By the way they are Europeans nto Caucasians. The people in the Caucas mountains are now Muslims... Albeit white skinned Europeans, but still considered 'the enemy' by the Amerikkkan Imperialists.

quote:
Continuing to blame our own stupidity and ignorance on white supremacy is useless. No other ethnic group spends so much time dwelling on such nonsense. This being who truly fits that description of being ignorant, backwards, perverted.

Most other ethnic groups are too busy making it possible for all kinds of opportunities, so much so, they just don't have time to cry about, "I'm being held down by a group of racist Caucasians, etc., etc., etc."


If you don't understand the system of white supremacy, I don't expect you to understand it's effects, on the perpatrators or it's victims. It establishes a colour caste system with white at the top end of privilege and guess who on the bottom? I guess it is hard for you to understand why THE MOST OPRESSED under a system would complain and want said system to be destroyed. I said a system, perpetrated by a few elite European elites is holding down the masses of humanity, some to a greater degree than others. Like I said...get a clue.

quote:
....and the biggest deterent to the advancement of Black is not racism, but rather the ineptness of our own community to move forward to protect our own interests.[/URL]


PLEASE! Only a person completely ignorant of the history of our struggle globally would believe such a thing. If you are an African/Black person, you suffer from the same internalized self hate that those who use the N word display, you just express yours differently.

quote:


And numerous people express their self hate by trying to blame the oppressed for their own oppression...and by distancing themselves from the oppressed group they are a part of. If YOU aren't trying to dismantle the system of white supremacy and organize our community to do so, you are part of the problem and working for the enemy.
Where in my posts did I say that "no effect" on the n-word's stigma is the reason not to use the n-word? The effect, pro, con, or non, of black use of the n-word on whether the n-word carries a stigma is not the reason I gave for why we should stop using the word. That wouldn't make any sense. If I were you, and I came up with an interpretation of somebody's post that was this absurd, I would consider that maybe I'm misinterpreting before I concluded that as the correct interpretation.

Briefly:

1. Aphterthought implied that someone could choose to use the word causally in non-offensive ways as a way to "dealing with a word with a negative history."

2. Knowing that there's a common belief in the hip-hop generations (my age & younger) that if they choose to take the word and make it their own, they can rob it of its negativity, I said that this was false, because blacks have used it as our own for centuries, quiet as that's kept, but its negativity burns as heavily as ever.

Note that there is no causality implied or intended in this statement. I did not say that our use is THE REASON why the stigma burns heavily. I said that the fact that it burns heavily despite our historical use rebuts the argument that our use will remove the stigma.


3. I then said that, since blacks who suffered the psychological burdens of enslavement & Jim Crow used the term, and since that use was likely due to such psychological burdens, we should, if anything, make a conscious effort to stop using the word.

After you go back and confirm this as the chronology of this part of our discussion, I trust you will no longer believe that I said that we should stop using the word because to stop using it will eliminate the stigma. If you still do, then I guess we'll have to leave it at that, because I can think of way worse, way more consequential things for you to falsely believe. Peace...
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael:...for the Oshun Ausets of the world. ....last time I checked, I have years of experience of being Black to which I could care less as to what you think of me. You are in no way an ingredient to my success!


I surely didn't expect you to care. Anyone who bashes their own people because of the circumstances we are in, created by someone else I might add, couldn't care what one of his own kind thinks of him.

Srrry for calling you a white man(if you aren't one) but when it quacks like a duck, I can't help but think it's one.

quote:
The many hardships faced during my life have come from the disgracefulness, the treason, the greed, the sleaze of Black people, and not "the Bush Administration or any racist Caucasian"!


OK, remember that the next time you get pulled over for driving while African/Black. It's your own fault!...lol

I can tell how much you love your people and humanity in general! By the way they are Europeans nto Caucasians. The people in the Caucas mountains are now Muslims... Albeit white skinned Europeans, but still considered 'the enemy' by the Amerikkkan Imperialists.

quote:
Continuing to blame our own stupidity and ignorance on white supremacy is useless. No other ethnic group spends so much time dwelling on such nonsense. This being who truly fits that description of being ignorant, backwards, perverted.

Most other ethnic groups are too busy making it possible for all kinds of opportunities, so much so, they just don't have time to cry about, "I'm being held down by a group of racist Caucasians, etc., etc., etc."


If you don't understand the system of white supremacy, I don't expect you to understand it's effects, on the perpatrators or it's victims. It establishes a colour caste system with white at the top end of privilege and guess who on the bottom? I guess it is hard for you to understand why THE MOST OPRESSED under a system would complain and want said system to be destroyed. I said a system, perpetrated by a few elite European elites is holding down the masses of humanity, some to a greater degree than others. Like I said...get a clue.

quote:
....and the biggest deterent to the advancement of Black is not racism, but rather the ineptness of our own community to move forward to protect our own interests.[/URL]


PLEASE! Only a person completely ignorant of the history of our struggle globally would believe such a thing. If you are an African/Black person, you suffer from the same internalized self hate that those who use the N word display, you just express yours differently.

quote:


And numerous people express their self hate by trying to blame the oppressed for their own oppression...and by distancing themselves from the oppressed group they are a part of. If YOU aren't trying to dismantle the system of white supremacy and organize our community to do so, you are part of the problem and working for the enemy.


So you see it for what it is huh Oshun? The hatred for blacks is obvious, whether he is white or black....it doesn't matter because I lump self-hating blacks right in with the klan and any other group that resents any form of pro-black thought or stance on a issue that favors the black majority....i guess people like this who hide behind keyboards make me really dog the chit out of the bootlickers I meet in person.....especially in the workplace...I know negroes who decry affirmative action where i have worked and I had to remind them that AA resulted in them being a part of a protected class which made them HAVE to hire black people because the place was so lilly....once I demonstrate to them why that is some stupid counterproductive schit to believe, then they turn into something personal, like how I express myself as a way to take their coward puzzy azzes off the subject of discussion.....the white man took their blackness and left them as a weasel of an animal.......my goodness!!
VOX?
How do you or rather why do you propose to Stop Using It if you actually feel it will have NO EFFECT?

What's the purpose and reason then?
What? Just to disassociate with things that remind or reflect "Slave (Diet) Behavior"? And you would want to discontinue and disassociate with that on what basis? For what reason... if you don't presume there will be any EFFECT?

Seriously... Discontinue those old Slave Dietary items is for what? Does it or does it not have an EFFECT on the health of African-Americans (getting rid or moderating diets littered with those foods)?

Seriously. Seriously, are arguments, even your argument, against the old Slave Dietary foods just about discontinuing old slave habits or does it have an underlying or overriding health concern component to it?

Is that not the same type of underlying and/or overriding concern you have over The N-Word? Why talk about SELF-HATRED and TRAUMA if you honestly believe discontinuing the use of the N-Word wouldn't be, as you seem to say, a Personal Statement that's "symbolic" of, in essence, a healing or victory over the "self-defeat" that's been with us throughout our traumatic experiences in this country.

You believe "the N-Word is the Pig Intestines of the English Language" because you, no doubt, find Pig Intestines to not only be gross but unhealthy and/or just not fit for human consumption. So, given your argument is that we shouldn't consume or tolerate a verbal diet of Pig Intestines via the N-Word, if we were to adopt a NO N-Word policy... you know you would, no doubt, feel that it would have a positive EFFECT and/or would be a positive signal/symbol... or at least not the negative one. That indicates that discontinuing the use of the N-Word would have an EFFECT, not NO EFFECT at all.

That, IMO, is an honest depiction of your views, in total -- properly connected.

quote:
...for you to call the "no effect" conclusion ridiculous while you simultaneously believe that it neither adds to nor subtracts from the stigma, doesn't really make much sense.
And you are talking about what? I said:

...I don't see it being Choice #3. So, yes, the more you continue, all you do is say even more ridiculous stuff to compensate for other ridiculous things you've said.

Choice #3, again, was the NO EFFECT clause. So, logically, I wasn't calling the NO EFFECT idea "ridiculous", in and of itself. As I have been saying, your thoughts here are not connecting and it seems you would like to leave them as disconnected as if they really are in your mind and, most importantly, in your overall opinion here.

Things you have said are not unrelated to each other. Sentences within a paragraph are supposed to be related to each other. Normally, one sentence builds off of another (relationship) -- i.e. one sentence is said to lend support to those either before or after it.

So, revisiting your thoughts from that initial post I responded to... and the fully examining Slave Diet Analogy... it is ridiculous to act like you view discontinuing a tradition or symbol of "self-hate" like the N-Word as something that would have NO EFFECT on the Stigma, at least in terms of how we relate to it.

Again, are Pig Intestines suppose to be discontinued or taken out of diets just because? Just because they were Slave foods? Just because they were Slave foods that symbolized the debasement of our ancestors -- because they got the scraps?

Or, being honest... is there not an element of improved health involved in the anti-Slave Diet argument?
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quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael:...for the Oshun Ausets of the world. ....last time I checked, I have years of experience of being Black to which I could care less as to what you think of me. You are in no way an ingredient to my success!


I surely didn't expect you to care. Anyone who bashes their own people because of the circumstances we are in, created by someone else I might add, couldn't care what one of his own kind thinks of him............. by Oshun Auset"

....the rest of your diatribe deserves no response!


.....Closer to the reality Black people bash themselves.


"Sorry for calling you a white man(if you aren't one) but when it quacks like a duck, I can't help but think it's one.....Oshun Auset"

...again it is not important to me as to what you may think of me, because I have already proven my loyalty to the Black community!

In spite of anything you may say about me to infer that I'm an uncle Tom, etc., I sleep soundly every night, my conscience is clear, I don't have this set of problems, that these disgraceful so-called university educated misfits from our own community face.

.......A set of problems brought on by sleaze, greed, ignorance, treason, etc.,

....as for these individuals, they are about to receive some serious punishment for betraying South Central Los Angeles, Compton, themselves, etc.

...and if it acts like a thief, or truly commits criminal acts, eventually it will be wearing prison stripes, or be sued for every asset owned!


King/Drew Doctor Got Free Care
The neurosurgeon, who has resigned, received $10,644 in surgeries and tests, audit finds. He repaid the county as part of confidential deal.
By Tracy Weber and Charles Ornstein
Times Staff Writers

June 3, 2005

Weeks before the highest-paid doctor at Martin Luther King Jr./Drew Medical Center was allowed to retire, auditors found that he had racked up nearly $11,000 in surgeries and medical tests that he didn't pay for and, month after month, exaggerated the hours he worked.

Dr. George E. Locke, former chairman of neurosciences, resigned in February after reaching a confidential deal with Los Angeles County, which owns the hospital. He has since joined the medical staff at Fountain Valley Regional Hospital and Medical Center in Orange County.

As part of the deal, Locke repaid Los Angeles County in full for the medical services he received while employed at King/Drew, according to a private memo sent to the county Board of Supervisors on Thursday. The January audit estimated that his two personal surgeries and dozens of medical tests cost $10,644.

The county also agreed to provide a "neutral response" to any inquiries from Locke's prospective employers, according to the memo from Fred Leaf, chief operating officer of the county Department of Health Services.

Locke's attorney, Lawrence Silver, called the audit "erroneous" and said Locke had medical insurance through the county that would have covered the medical treatments. "Apparently King failed to process the claim on a timely basis, and the insurer refused to pay because the hospital made a late claim," Silver said in an e-mail Thursday.

Locke, a longtime King/Drew leader who had worked there since 1974, was featured in a five-part Times investigation in December detailing a variety of failings at the public hospital in Willowbrook, just south of Watts.

The Times investigation found several instances in which Locke's timecards showed him working more hours than he apparently had, including a 24-hour period in which he reportedly worked or was on-call for 26 hours.

During the 2003 and 2004 fiscal years, Locke earned more than $1 million, including his hospital salary and a stipend he received from King/Drew's affiliated medical school, records show.

Los Angeles County Supervisor Mike Antonovich, who criticized Locke's productivity last year, said in a statement that he was "very concerned that deals were made" with Locke and called on the Medical Board of California to investigate him.

The neurosurgeon is among several hospital employees who have been allowed to resign in recent months after auditors accused them of wrongdoing.

Dr. William Long, an orthopedic surgeon, resigned last year after auditors alleged that he had falsified his timecards and referred insured King/Drew patients to his private practice. Long has denied the allegations and said the county had dropped them before he resigned.

Dr. Lawrence D. Robinson Jr., the former head of pediatrics at King/Drew, resigned under pressure in April after auditors determined that he had been working in his private practice in Lancaster while being paid to be at King/Drew. Robinson has said the moonlighting allegations resulted from misunderstandings and innocent mistakes.

Dr. Thomas Garthwaite, director of the county health department, said he supported holding employees accountable for their actions but that it was often much more expensive to terminate staffers than to allow them to resign.

He declined to say why Locke was not fired or reported to prosecutors.

"There are trade-offs," he said. "There is an enormous expense to defend personnel actions, especially dismissals."

County health department auditors, in their report about Locke, determined that he did not pay for 40 services, including laboratory and other tests valued at $4,430. He also received spinal surgery in July 2000 and carpal tunnel surgery in November 2004 "” costing $6,214 "” without paying for them.

A physician who reviewed Locke's medical records for the auditors also questioned the quality of care received by Locke from physicians that reported to him. During his carpal tunnel surgery, Locke was given five sedatives that would have been "significant in their dosing" for any patient, but particularly for Locke, who the reviewer said was "elderly and relatively thin."

The reviewer also questioned why Locke, 70, was given a potent "sedative, hypnotic agent" after the surgery, according to the audit.

The medication "is probably a documentation error because if it is not a documentation error, then Dr. Locke was without proper monitoring and oxygen for 30 minutes," the reviewer said, according to the audit.

The doctors involved with Locke's care have been disciplined, county health department spokesman John Wallace said.

Despite his sedation and instructions to limit his activities for 24 hours, Locke billed for 19.5 hours of on-call pay that day "” including the hours after the surgery, the audit said.

Locke later repaid the county for those hours, according to the memo sent to supervisors Thursday.

Auditors also investigated allegations that Locke had billed for additional hours that he did not work.

The auditors randomly selected a nine-month period, January through September 2003, and compared the hours Locke logged on his timecards with records of card-key use for the parking lot he used, according to the audit. They were unable to corroborate all of the hours he reported.

Auditors found that Locke arrived at the hospital one to four hours after he indicated on his timecard. On some dates there was no record of his entering the parking lot.

County officials said that tracking employee hours in this way was not foolproof because the gate, at times, is left open.

County rules require physicians to be working at the hospital during the hours logged on their timecards.

At the Fountain Valley hospital where Locke now is on staff, Natalie Maton, director of business development, says the hospital applies "strict criteria and a careful review process" to every doctor who applies to be on staff.

"Dr. George Locke is a member in good standing of the medical staff," appointed on May 4, 2005, she said.

Copyright 2005 Los Angeles Times"

********************************

I presume these individuals, Dr. Lawrence D. Robinson Jr., Dr. William Long, Dr. George E. Locke are going say they've been set up, or it's all the fault of racist Caucasians....

....while they steal, lie, play games, etc., at the expense of the indigent, the poverty stricken, the sickly, the destitute, the elderly, children, the seriously injured, etc., etc.

.....nope, these individuals are doing it to themselves. It is a no brainer that each of these individuals are going to lose their license to practice medicine. If I had of done this, make no mistake I would be facing felony criminal indictment. These individuals are going to pay a heavy price for stealing from those in poverty in South Central Los Angeles, Compton, etc., etc. Personally, I don't have any sympathy for them, nor should I, because each of these individuals have shown the height of disrespect for the Black community.

.....as far as being understandable, this message is very clear, and the connections are easy to grasp. The only connections these individuals deserve is a long stretch sharing a prison cell with "Bubba the Booty Bandit", and/or be sued for all their assets.

Brentwood Burke, no good Merv Dymally, etc., etc., had to know about this foolishness, because it is common knowledge to many individuals on the "street", which is how "Killer/Butcher" King County Hospital got its name.

Racist Caucasians, etc., etc., had absolutely nothing to do with giving this disgraceful place, or even giving Killer/Butcher King alias. The people who live in the neighborhood gave Killer/Butcher King its name.

.....but as usual, it must all be the fault of racist Caucasians. Can't convince the people who live in South Central that this is true, because just as surely as the sun shines, that Black middleclass in our own sleazy, greedy, criminal, treasonous, worthless Black doctors and nurses committed the atrocities at "Killer/Butcher" King all by themselves.

If anything, the Caucasian owned newspaper, in the Los Angeles Times, and other media forms have come to the rescue, to expose corrupt activity, that our own so-called elected representatives, the Los Angeles Sentinel, and so-called Black middleclass should have blown the whistle on years ago.

The atrocities of Killer/Butcher King have been going since the seventies. But as usual, no good Merv Dymally, Brentwood Burke, Kevin Murray, the so-called Black churches, the Black owned Sentinel...the so-called Largest Black Newspaper on the West Coast, etc., etc., have been too busy protecting their friends in "high places", than to serve the people as an elected official is sworn under oath and mandated by law to do, or any competent journalist would have a journalism duty to perform, or any clergyperson to being a true Christian, or moral, and/or ethical duty to fulfill!

".....And numerous people express their self hate by trying to blame the oppressed for their own oppression...and by distancing themselves from the oppressed group they are a part of. If YOU aren't trying to dismantle the system of white supremacy and organize our community to do so, you are part of the problem and working for the enemy." by Oshun Auset

Unlike your contention, these individuals are an enemy to themselves. Can't find any rational reason to blame this on racism, Michael Lofton, or otherwise, because if it acts like a thief, creeps like a thief, gets caught stealing as a thief, then Oh Well......, and you can end this phrase in any light that you see it.

Now, I ask, who truly hates Black folks? These individuals, meaning the Black doctors, nurses, elected officials, etc., must hate themselves, because their reputation, livelihood, and/or career are definitely on the line.


For those of good moral character, the truly law abiding, etc., such as the victims, and/or a Michael Lofton, each of us can still hold our head high, because there is power in playing it straight in the great U.S. of A.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton
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Seriously, If people across all races become destimagtized to the N-word, then everyone should then destigmatize words such as chink,cracker,wetback,gook ect. Y'all get my drift???

See how this idea would fly with people who defend the usage of the N-word...

People don't understand how much the defending of a slur towards blacks, shows the current state of blacks. The fact that there are a million ways to refer to blacks(mostly negative) shows how people of African descent are valued- as humans.

I don't know why any person with an ounce of self-respect would use such a word. I can't take any person who uses the n-word to refer to black people seriously.

If black people are really concerned about racism and being seen as fully human, and get rid of the negative things associated with being of African descent then they need to stop the shit and stop using slurs, and defending those that use it.
Nmag, The "stigma" we're talking about is the bitter, painful feeling many of us feel when we hear the word. Period. Whatever other stigma you're talking about (racial stigma? stigma about being black?), that same pain is not felt when we hear ourselves described as "black," or "African-American." We were talking about the stigma that makes the n-word one of the two most offensive words in the language, by a lot of people's reckoning.

Maybe that's where the confusion in this discussion is coming from, because otherwise I don't understand what your porblem is with what I'm saying.

I just had a conversation with a friend of mine this evening that reminded me of the topic of this thread, and of the reason I believe we need to stop using the n-word. We were talking about how, when a person is trying to overcome certain long-term major problems in their lives, certain habits that were formed as a result of those major problems should be consciously avoided. Even if the major problem persists, conscious practice against the incidentals is essential, especially once you become conscious of them. So yes, there's a certain "symbolic" element to it, but it's also a point of control. You may not be able to control the most ingrained subconscious tendencies, but the habits that you are consciously aware of, your awareness gives you the opportunity to fight it. I believe this is extremely important. It has worked in my life, and hopefully, if she takes my advice, it'll have some impact on hers as well.

And yes, Nmaginate, there's a "health" benefit to such a practice as well. Obviously. In the case of the person with low self-esteem, battling against habits that flow from it seems to me like good common sense. Do you have an argument against it? Or why it wouldn't work?

Again, my point about the impact of the use on the n-word's stigma is not the issue re: why stop using it. The stigma associated with the word will always be there, and frankly, I think it SHOULD always STAY there. That's not the point. And as for this "paragraph/single point" nonsense... What are you, Ironho now? Do you get on Kevin41 when he raises all of his points in a single block of text? Here, how about if I edit it for you...

quote:
If centuries of this exact same usage has done nothing to remove the stigma of the word, then that's not going to change now in the hip hop era.

And we can conclude as well, that if most of the enslaved Africans were traumatized into some degree of self-hate, and their use of the word is absolutely identical in all respects to the way so many of us today use it, then can there really be much difference in the current level of trauma and self-hate, among those who continue to use it the same ways they did? Seems like reason enough to stop using it...


Better?
quote:
And as for this "paragraph/single point" nonsense... What are you, Ironho now? Do you get on Kevin41 when he raises all of his points in a single block of text?
HUH?

I made no such point like IRONHO...
Why would I have reason "to get on KEVIN"?
He has not tried to act like his words in one paragraph, in one post, etc. were not related.

quote:
And yes, Nmaginate, there's a "health" benefit to such a practice as well. Obviously. In the case of the person with low self-esteem, battling against habits that flow from it seems to me like good common sense. Do you have an argument against it? Or why it wouldn't work?
Obviously, the idea of What STIGMA we were talking about (in terms of the parameters of it) was not the only thing we - YOU - got confused over.

I am in no wise arguing against NOT using the N-Word. I was clear in saying I don't use it or prefer it. I simply made the point that you saying both Using Or Not Using the N-Word would not have an EFFECT on the Stigma was a disingenuous idea, on your part, and inconsistent with what your overall, overriding thoughts conveyed. That was really it.

So, since you are clear now that you believe there will be HEALTHY BENEFITS and related this to Conscious Efforts to "FIGHT" old, bad habits... then you really have to be honest and note how your NO EFFECT stance was not really the what you were saying. You were definitely saying and are saying there will be an EFFECT. A positive one.

Otherwise this is worthless: "It has worked in my life."

So why do you say things and claim them to be your position when they are not? That's really all I have questioned, that and you commenting with this thrust but denying it when particular parts of your argument are questioned.

Please note: Your conclusions can be correct even when your premises are not.

I was saying some of the things you were saying and how you were saying them was not making your point and were, possibly, working against it -- whether I was exactly right or wrong in representing what you said or not.

So, fundamentally, I'm not at all arguing against your thrust of your point: To Get Rid Of The N-Word. But in all honesty, it doesn't help make you point when you're being less than honest about the points in opposition to yours.

Every use of the N-Word is not tantamount to self-hatred or the revisiting of trauma or even "unhealthy". I think it's safe to say ALL the foods within Slave Diets were not "bad" nor even the lifestyles adapted/adopted as a result of Slavery.

I just think it's important to be honest.
But I found the idea of Refusing To Use The N-Word JUST BECAUSE (of Slavery's heritage)... and then you saying Not Using it would have NO EFFECT to be contradictory. Now that grew out of, perhaps, some other "confusion" but I don't know why your views wouldn't be consistent throughout.
Every use of the N-Word is not tantamount to self-hatred or the revisiting of trauma or even "unhealthy". I think it's safe to say ALL the foods within Slave Diets were not "bad" nor even the lifestyles adapted/adopted as a result of Slavery.


Every use of the N-word, IS evidence of self hatrade. It has little to do with slavery's heritage but all to do with the fact that it is a SLUR...


Defending the usage of a slur is racist. Trying to destimagize a slur, does not help race relations one bit. It only trivializes the meaning of the word- which means people are simply trivalizing the worth of people of African descent. Why continue to use another word to describe people of African descent- there are a lot of them.

Anyone with any knowledge of the word knows what it means, and trying to integrate it into everyones vocabulary is absurd!!!

Like I said before, if we are to accept that the N-word is just a word,and that it's not a big deal. Then I propose this: we as people should try to Destimagtize other slurs, such as chink, gook, wetback, cracker, ect. Lets start... On y va!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Sweetwuzzy:
Every use of the N-Word is not tantamount to self-hatred or the revisiting of trauma or even "unhealthy". I think it's safe to say ALL the foods within Slave Diets were not "bad" nor even the lifestyles adapted/adopted as a result of Slavery.


Every use of the N-word, IS evidence of self hatrade. It has little to do with slavery's heritage but all to do with the fact that it is a SLUR...


Defending the usage of a slur is racist. Trying to destimagize a slur, does not help race relations one bit. It only trivializes the meaning of the word- which means people are simply trivalizing the worth of people of African descent. Why continue to use another word to describe people of African descent- there are a lot of them.

Anyone with any knowledge of the word knows what it means, and trying to integrate it into everyones vocabulary is absurd!!!

Like I said before, if we are to accept that the N-word is just a word,and that it's not a big deal. Then I propose this: we as people should try to Destimagtize other slurs, such as chink, gook, wetback, cracker, ect. Lets start... On y va!!!


Well said, Sweetwuzzy,

Indeed there is no excuse for using the N-word, profanity, or any other degrading or inflammatory label, and this link speaks volumes as to the consequences of using the N-word
SWEETWUZZY:
quote:
Defending the usage of a slur is racist.
Get it right. I'm not defending the use of it.

quote:
Trying to destimagize a slur, does not help race relations one bit.
HUH??
If you're directing your comments to me, I never posed anything under the idea of RACE RELATIONS, let alone something to "help" them.

quote:
Anyone with any knowledge of the word knows what it means, and trying to integrate it into everyones vocabulary is absurd!!!
Ha! Ha! I know that couldn't be directed at what I said. This sounds like some paranoia gone wild. But, clearly, it's just KNEE-JERK!

quote:
Like I said before, if we are to accept that the N-word is just a word,and that it's not a big deal. Then I propose this: we as people should try to Destimagtize other slurs, such as chink, gook, wetback, cracker, ect. Lets start...
Magical words. IF you had examined WHAT I SAID BEFORE then you wouldn't mis-associate what I said with some silly shit like, "It's Just A Word."

What are you talking about?
Who are you actually talking to?
If you are an African/Black person, you suffer from the same internalized self hate, that those who use the N word display, you just express yours differently. [Particularly if you don't understand and ultimately seek the destruction the system of White Supremacy.]


...And numerous people express their self hate by trying to blame the oppressed for their own oppression...

...If YOU aren't trying to dismantle the system of white supremacy and organize our community to do so, you are part of the problem and working for the enemy.



Had the Bump That! cool
(Please excuse the add-on)
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

So, since you are clear now that you believe there will be HEALTHY BENEFITS and related this to Conscious Efforts to "FIGHT" old, bad habits... then you really have to be honest and note how your NO EFFECT stance was not really the what you were saying. You were definitely saying and are saying there will be an EFFECT. A positive one.

And EFFECT, YES. BUT NOT AN EFFECT ON THE STIGMA OF THE N-WORD. The stigma of the n-word is irrelevant to the benefit of abandoning a self-hating practice. Why do you take things out of context like that? You see where I said "there would an effect," and you see where I say "there wouldn't be an effect on the stigma of the n-word," and you split them and combine parts to find a contradiction? The effect I say it would have is on something other than whether the n-word continues to be seen as a bad word. There is no contradiction. Self-deflating practice dies, word still seen as bad.

If women don't call themselves "dames," it has no effect on how we view the word "dame." But it might have some effect on their own views toward themselves as women. I see no logical flaw in believing that there's an effect on one thing but not another. You seem to see in that a contradiction, but it's pretty self-evident to me That you continue to maintain this confusion of YOURS is a bit odd. Butchu still my ni-- uhh, brotha!!
No confusion, VOX. Save my confusion over your original argument.

You went from telling APHTER that the N-Word shouldn't be used in the presence of those who are categorically offended by it, at face value. Then, to the point I responded to, you switched gears and, instead of taking the "Let's Respect Each Others Views" approach, you retreated, I presume back into your own very personal view that the N-Word should never be used by anyone, under any circumstances for any reason. Not only that but you used particular statements that really didn't make your case.

Part of the confusion, to the extent there was/is, comes from how you switched gears and jumped to your conclusion. Me, I don't think your argument is weakened by overextending and exaggerating things. Nowhere did you establish that Blacks calling each other the N was exactly what you seem to say it is: self-deflating practices indicative of self-hatred and self-inflicted trauma.

True. Those may be your feelings about the term, regardless of context, but that hardly establish even with the Slave Diet Analogy that the N is all or any of that in the endearing context. Again, you did not illustrate how that was so in the endearing context.

When it's used as a term of endearment, however problematic the term is LITERALLY, does not make the use of it as endearing a form of self-hate. That doesn't add up. I Endear You But I Hate You and Myself in the process.

The fact that some can use it as a Term Of Endearment, no matter how you feel about it, is evidence that there is no such stigma, in those context(s), with them. It is as you basically acknowledged before: The N-Word Stigma is something that is evident within the way different people view the word. How you jump to calling it self-hating, categorically... again, was unsubstantiated and betrayed the very "respect others" principle you put out there earlier.

That is to say when two Black people use the N as endearment amongst themselves around no one who would be offended, however distasteful it is to you, how can you call it "self-hating" when ostensibly their showing each other love? That is where you have violated your own principle. You seek to impose your will, your interpretation based on your personal revulsion onto others where you have no business or right to. Such an instance, again, is not in public for you to hear. Your idea seems to be no more than Knee-Jerk in that instance. And it's that kind of idea that filtered in on what I commented on.

See? I was "confused" as to the point you were trying to make. You said, "Hey, Black people have been saying this for a while even as a term of endearment." But then take a leap and proclaim all of those expressions, apparently, at all times were forms of self-hate. And that's something you did not establish.

When you clarified your position with the Slave Diet Analogy, I then had a handle on what you were trying to say. It wasn't quite clear before. But after you said that, I was clear on your position. I knew you had departed the earlier notion of Respect Those Who May Be Offended (and wasn't going to reciprocate that in reverse).

As I pointed out, though very compelling because the vivid picture it paints, the Slave Diet Analogy is not without it's flaws. Anyway... the thing is, no matter how individuals see or use the N... I think your earliest proposition was the most sound and reasonable. As the Michael Dyson thread suggests, a compromise can be reached on those grounds alone and perhaps far quicker with far more with that approach instead of receding into unproveables and very subjective or inane absolutist ideas (i.e. [every] use of the N is a sign of self-hatred).

It just seems to me (and the contradictions I saw or imputed) by reaching as you did, it didn't help your argument because the appeal to Stop Using The N-Word was solid on the basis of not using it within the earshot of anyone who might be offended. Only someone completely unreasonable would disagree with that, IMO.

The problem comes

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