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I did not even bother listening to the entire thing. The fact that people even question if anyone can use such a word, really shows how much the world has no respect for blacks at all(blacks included.)

Whenever I hear a person say the word, or give an exuse as to why they may use the word, I then say is it okay for me to call you a spic, cracker, honkey,wetback, ect?

Anyone non-black who says that should then be called by slurs that pertain to them. Lets see how they feel when they are refered to by a word such as the N-word.
I think the point she is trying to make, aphterthought, is that the "N" word is something that is neither funny, nor should be made fun of. On top of that although some (generally our youth) think that it's okay for blacks to say it (and to each other -- as a name, no less!!) ... others of us realize that it's really not "okay," considering the fact that the definition of it was meant to refer to Blacks as the lowest form of some kind of species or creature, since at the time, Blacks were not considered to be full human beings. And the fact of the matter is that that is still the definition today ... and that's why we can't figure out why today's generation would think its "okay" to use/say it!

I did my best to make it through the whole song. But it was a bit too disgusting for my tastes! Smile Sorry. :sad:
The quoted reference Michael gave didn't correlate to the topic at hand...but aside from that, there's nothing redeemable about the N-word, no matter how you spell it.

Saying there's a difference (other than spelling) between N*gger and N*gga, is saying to a woman there's a difference between b*tch and b*yatch.
I understand, but the song is a parody on the situation as it is, not as you'd like it to be.

I don't think it's ok for a select segment of our race to say that the other segment cannot define what it means to them. You think any variation of it is offensive. That's cool, but if someone else does not to then that's their choice in dealing with a word with a negative history.

If one black person says nigger is horrible and another says it's not when used in context, who is right?
quote:
Originally posted by aphterthought:
I understand, but the song is a parody on the situation as it is, not as you'd like it to be.

I don't think it's ok for a select segment of our race to say that the other segment cannot define what it means to them. You think any variation of it is offensive. That's cool, but if someone else does not to then that's their choice in dealing with a word with a negative history.

If one black person says nigger is horrible and another says it's not when used in context, who is right?


I think one answer to that question is, if my grandmother thinks it's offensive and you don't, then you are going to have a big problem with me if you say it in my grandmother's presence. A simple point of respect for others should dictate what kind of language you use around whom. How you feel about the word is one thing when you're in an environment away from those who have a problem with it. But way too often, people who have a problem with it have to put up with hearing it, and that shows the disrespect among many of its users.
quote:
Originally posted by aphterthought:
Q:If one black person says nigger is horrible and another says it's not when used in context, who is right?


A:The person who thinks it is horrible. Because it is. Period.

The only people who think it is ok are usually devoid of any knowledge of it's historical context. I find a lot of the youth think it is ok to use because they have never been called it by a European/White in an overtly discriminatory/oppressive manner/situation.

If they had, they would understand the malice behind it and would not want to hear ANYONE use it.
Here is a little experiement for you all. The next time someone calls you or decide to use the word Nigger or Nigga in your presence, you in turn use the word Bitch as they have used the word Nigger or Nigga and tell them, you used it in the same context they used Nigger or Nigga. Watch how they respond!

Remind them, that it does not matter what the word mean or the history of it, you know what it means to you and you will continue to use Bitch as they use Nigger or Nigga.

In my experiece, the Nigger or Nigga users did not like being called "Bitch" even after explaining to them that I used it in the same way they used Nigger or Nigga! "go figure" bang
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by aphterthought:
Q:If one black person says nigger is horrible and another says it's not when used in context, who is right?


A:The person who thinks it is horrible. Because it is. Period.

The only people who think it is ok are usually devoid of any knowledge of it's historical context. I find a lot of the youth think it is ok to use because they have never been called it by a European/White in an overtly discriminatory/oppressive manner/situation.

If they had, they would understand the malice behind it and would not want to hear ANYONE use it.


Yes it's a word with an inflammatory history, but it's still merely a word, much like "kill" and "rape". We can't start banning words because we don't like how they've been used. Is it ok to use the word "nigger" as a noun as I did in this sentence? Where does it end?

I firmly believe in the right to difference in opinion. To say that your interpretation should be the only one simply because you "know better" is a basic violation of the fundamental respect between parties. If I ended every argument by simply calling my opponent ignorant, I don't think we've gotten anywhere.
quote:
Originally posted by aphterthought:

Yes it's a word with an inflammatory history, but it's still merely a word, much like "kill" and "rape". We can't start banning words because we don't like how they've been used. Is it ok to use the word "nigger" as a noun as I did in this sentence? Where does it end?

I firmly believe in the right to difference in opinion. To say that your interpretation should be the only one simply because you "know better" is a basic violation of the fundamental respect between parties. If I ended every argument by simply calling my opponent ignorant, I don't think we've gotten anywhere.


Who said anything about "Banning" words...I'm assuming you mean a social ban, considering legally we can't force anyone not to use it, and to try to "legally" ban it would be ridiculous.

But since you brought it up all kind of social stigma is given to a myriad of public behaviors within the African/Black community, and human society in general. I guess we should ignore all of it.

We don't like hearing folks talk about our mamma's...but we are ok with referring to each other by the oppressor's label. How ironic.

BTW since you were asking for our opinions and then say that we can't say that we shouldn't use it.... What is your point bitch?(I'm using the term bitch in the manner Faheem just described, so you can't be offended or expect me to think that it is unacceptable social behavior to refer to you in such a manner.

If you weren't offended by me talking to you that way, somethin' is very wrong...

BTW, aren't their greater causes to defend than the use of prejorative racial language towards one another?
aphterthought ...

First of all, I just gotta ask ... exactly how young are you, sweetie? Confused

To take Faheem's thought a little farther (since it was actually my same thought before I read his post!) ... let's supposed someone were to refer to your favorite female (i.e. mom, sister, grandmother, aunt ... whomever) as "bitch" instead of her name. And everytime this person spoke of or to her, this is the name they used. Would you try to stop them? Or would it be okay? After all ... it's just a word, right?

It may be offense to you or her, but not to that person ... and, according to you, that individual would have a right to respect for his/her differing opinion, correct? So, think about it long and hard, and please honestly tell me how you think you would react to that.
quote:
BTW, aren't their greater causes to defend than the use of prejorative racial language towards one another?
Exactly, I call it DWELLING ON THE SUPERFICIAL. Of course, in relative terms.

But, if AphterThought wants to test out the theory of "It's Just A Word"... Go right up to your nearest board member here and see how it works.

And you know, don't complain about being Knocked The Fuck Out... "It's Just A Word!" lol
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

But since you brought it up all kind of social stigma is given to a myriad of public behaviors within the African/Black community, and human society in general. I guess we should ignore all of it.


I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything of the sort.

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
We don't like hearing folks talk about our mamma's...but we are ok with referring to each other by the oppressor's label. How ironic.


I'm not sure your example works. I could care less if someone decides to talk about another person's mother.

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
BTW since you were asking for our opinions and then say that we can't say that we shouldn't use it.... What is your point bitch?


Well I was under the impression, and I could be wrong, that those opinions were open for discussion as this is a discussion board. I'll go back and re-check.

Is it possible that an entire group of people could all completely miss a point? I can't honestly believe you think that referring to another person you don't know, out of context, as a bitch; and two people with a shared understanding referring to each other as "nigga" is the same thing. I wouldn't refer to anyone as something they found personally offensive, and I don't think I've said anything to the contrary.

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
BTW, aren't their greater causes to defend than the use of prejorative racial language towards one another?


quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Exactly, I call it DWELLING ON THE SUPERFICIAL. Of course, in relative terms.


I think I'm the only person who's NOT dwelling on the superficial. I never intended to debate a person's right to get offended over the word.
quote:
I think I'm the only person who's NOT dwelling on the superficial. I never intended to debate a person's right to get offended over the word.
Take at least a little responsibility would you?
You basically said "it's just a word."
You brought up this SUPERFICIAL topic.

So seriously, take some ownership. You said silly shit like:
Yes it's a word with an inflammatory history, but it's still merely a word, much like "kill" and "rape".

And your issues come completely to the fore when you say:
...I don't think we've gotten anywhere.

Where exactly where you trying to get?
If you have Fundamental Respect (Between Parties)?

This SUPERFICIAL ass topic would not be one if you had respect. This is not indicative of RESPECT:
If one black person says nigger is horrible and another says it's not when used in context, who is right?

There would be no such question if you had RESPECT. No one with RESPECT would be trying to question, pick or evaluate "who's right?" The opinions here are clear. RESPECT THEM and move on. This not a subject for debate if you have RESPECT.

If you had RESPECT this "parody" wouldn't be an issue or even of interest:
The song is a parody dealing with the fact that blacks can say it and whites can't...

Seriously? What is the issue here?
Who gives a fuck about the idea that WHITES CAN'T USE the N'WORD? Who cares if WHITES feel like they should be able to use it or find it hypocritical? or whatever your point in bringing up this SUPERFICIAL ass topic.

Who really gives a fuck about the Parody or the situation in real life? (That Blacks Can and Whites Can't)

No one here does (save you apparently). Doesn't seem like anyone gives a shit about how Whites feel about it. So please speak about something pertinent and meaningful - aka not SUPERFICIAL; aka an actual real issue of concern here - TO THE BOARD.

You wondered:
"Where does it end?"

Well, Slippery Slopes won't advance your hopes. Your very question is incredulous because you haven't even pointed to the next thing (word) bound to follow the use of this word YOU'RE concerned about (even though it would probably fallacious if you did).

quote:
I can think of no other reason than the desire to maintain a certain form of white privilege: the privilege of saying whatever we want, whenever we want, and feeling as though our right to lecture others on their behavior should logically take precedence over controlling our own.

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2005-05/25wise.cfm
So I guess there's some latent desire amongst WHITES to just call Blacks "niggers" all Willy Nilly just 'cause...

Let me rephrase that. I guess there's some latent desire, some Sense Of Entitlement Whites feel. They feel they should and they want to call Black folks "niggers" whenever they want.

Is that your point?
Is that where you're trying to get?

Please explain your fantasy with this SUPERFICIAL ass topic...
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
You basically said "it's just a word."
You brought up this SUPERFICIAL topic.

So seriously, take some ownership. You said silly shit like:
Yes it's a word with an inflammatory history, but it's still merely a word, much like "kill" and "rape".

And your issues come completely to the fore when you say:
...I don't think we've gotten anywhere.

Where exactly where you trying to get?
If you have Fundamental Respect (Between Parties)?


You missed the point, which is apparently a trend. When I talked about "getting somewhere" or "respect between parties" I wasn't talking about our discussion specifically. My point was that the poster simply stated "the word is bad, that's it" and my point was IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. You can't simply tell someone they're wrong, case closed, you're ignorant. Not in this country and certainly not on a DISCUSSION forum.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

This SUPERFICIAL ass topic would not be one if you had respect. This is not indicative of RESPECT:
If one black person says nigger is horrible and another says it's not when used in context, who is right?

There would be no such question if you had RESPECT. No one with RESPECT would be trying to question, pick or evaluate "who's right?" The opinions here are clear. RESPECT THEM and move on. This not a subject for debate if you have RESPECT.


Yet you have decided take it a step further and simply decide that I'm not only wrong, but should keep my mouth shut about it. The issue of wrong or right was brought into question by previous posters, not myself, who went ahead and deemed it WRONG to EVER use that word. Mine was simply a rebuttal.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

If you had RESPECT this "parody" wouldn't be an issue or even of interest:
The song is a parody dealing with the fact that blacks can say it and whites can't...

Seriously? What is the issue here?
Who gives a fuck about the idea that WHITES CAN'T USE the N'WORD? Who cares if WHITES feel like they should be able to use it or find it hypocritical? or whatever your point in bringing up this SUPERFICIAL ass topic.

Who really gives a fuck about the Parody or the situation in real life? (That Blacks Can and Whites Can't)

No one here does (save you apparently). Doesn't seem like anyone gives a shit about how Whites feel about it. So please speak about something pertinent and meaningful - aka not SUPERFICIAL; aka an actual real issue of concern here - TO THE BOARD.



Your arrogant, hostile, bitter, elitist, condescending attitude has apparently shielded YOU from any sense of the true definition of the word respect. I doubt you are capable of showing such a thing as respect to anyone who dares to show a differing view point than the one you're clearly set your heart upon. That's fine, but don't think for a second that it gives your opinion any greater weight. Further than that, I simply don't give a damn what you think is pertinent and meaningful nor do I feel I have to explain anything about me to you.
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It's gettin' kinda hot in here...

But I think we can agree that, like I said before, even when you use the word among your like-minded friends, if you're in public and others can hear you speak, you're offending them even if you aren't talking about them or to them.

More tellingly, though, the belief among some people today that the word is newly being embraced as a term of endearment for the first time is false. It has ALWAYS been used by blacks, in the exact same ways in which it's used now. Even during Jim Crow, and even during enslavement. Go to any bookstore and find any book of slave narratives. The ex-slaves use the n-word to describe blacks that they loved & respected (as well as those they didn't), just like we do today.

If centuries of this exact same usage has done nothing to remove the stigma of the word, then that's not going to change now in the hip hop era. And we can conclude as well, that if most of the enslaved Africans were traumatized into some degree of self-hate, and their use of the word is absolutely identical in all respects to the way so many of us today use it, then can there really be much difference in the current level of trauma and self-hate, among those who continue to use it the same ways they did? Seems like reason enough to stop using it...
Right on Vox. This word was created, designed, manufactured, contrived and customized by the white man specifically for the dispargement of the black man period! He has maliciously given this vile, scornful, dispicable and contemptuous lable for the sole purpose of heralding to the world-- 'here are the lowest of the low- a subhuman race of animal that does not deserve to be considered with any inkling of civility and but by the white man's grace, we are "allowed" to exist'! So masterfully clever in his calculated endoctrination of our collective will that we have given in, taken to and developed an affinity so great to this term that we now see an entire generation that actually "defends" the use of it. Just like a crack addicted fiend, all voices of sound rationale and reason take a back seat to our desperate desire to hold on to it and continue it's use.....totally abandoning any semblance of self respect, pride, dignity, consideration for others and regard for our ancestors. Hell, we are the ONLY people on the face of the earth who seem to delight at and enthrall in our self endulgent use of a term meant to spite and vilify us all! You NEVER here other races of people call each other by the terms that the white man fashioned for them!! Quenton Terrentino can repeat it in a movie over and over and over again and all we do is gloat about how good the movie was; record execs will allow it's use in hip hop music and our young people ride around with the volumn cranked and blasting it to the high heavens. You know, when Michael Jackson wrote a song with the lyrics "sue me, jew me and kike me" in it.......the jewish community made them take the gotdamned record OFF the damn shelves!!!! But in so far as a term designed for the continual mockery and disrespect of our people, we still have a generation coming up who think it's cool to call each other niggah. Now that's some sad ass chit! Oh, I won't be surprised at the day when everybody and his brother feel like they can run around spouting use of it. Damn, can we please wake the *u*k up??!! The KKK don't have to exist today. The neo-nazis either. We are doing a much better job at screwing ourselves than the kkk could ever do! Hell, if a people don't bother to respect themselves, how the hell can they expect anybody else to? And I don't just lay blame at the youth.....there are a whole lot of older, brainwashed, institutionlized, conditioned black people who still can't shake using the white man's weapons against themselves....whether it is crack, guns, welfare or the word niggah! I personally pledge to make every attempt to educate those brothers and sisters still 'caught up' in the white man's trappings. It has sometimes gotten me cursed out, but I hope one day that more of our people will join in and do the same. I am a firm believer that if we start to keep each other accountable, things will start to progress much faster for us. So if you are in Burger King, on the ball field, at the park, in church...oh yes in church to, and you start talking bout niggah this and niggah that,.....I'm going to say something to you. And I'm prepared to get my ass beat, but I'm ready to whip some as as well. Peace.
Your arrogant, hostile, bitter, elitist, condescending attitude has apparently shielded YOU from any sense of the true definition of the word respect.

RESPECT is your theme, not mine. You wanted to esteem some subjective (and irrelevant) notion of RESPECT. I guess it's obvious what you're objecting to. Oh poor, poor little presumed sense of your self.

Yet you have decided take it a step further and simply decide that I'm not only wrong, but should keep my mouth shut about it.

No. I'm saying your whole thread-theme is, as I said, SUPERFICIAL and really some silly shit that's IMMATERIAL and of no relevant concern... TO THE BOARD.

Perhaps you should take your issues and inquiry to a board where someone gives a fuck. But while you're here and as long as you stay, again:
Who gives a fuck about the idea that WHITES CAN'T USE the N'WORD? Who cares if WHITES feel like they should be able to use it or find it hypocritical?

What part of that didn't you understand?
Exactly what part do you find "hostile, bitter", etc., etc.? What makes it "hostile" to you? Because I stated the obvious?

Yes! Who gives a FUCK (on a Black BOARD) about what Whites think about the N-WORD?

Stand by your own stated principles, APHTER~
You said: I firmly believe in the right to difference in opinion. Well, you got the DIFFERENCE (and The Business) from me in clear, plain English. Now show some respect for my "right" to tell you what YOU want to talk about ain't about shit!

As I said, DWELLING ON THE SUPERFICIAL!
And, as for whatever Whites and advocates/sympathizers for Whites think on this issue... once more... WHO GIVES A FUCK!!!?

That's said so you can be clear.
So you can have your interpretation and even be curious, confused or otherwise concerned about other people's interpretations but those things are your issues. As for me and this board... WHO GIVES A FUCK what you think and what you're curiously curious about on this issue. What you think or find "interesting" via the "Parody" in no wise amounts to anything we should even dignify with a comment. To the extent anyone does, you should be happy. Because what you think on this matter is IRRELEVANT!

Don't let your ego get in the way of the TRUTH of the matter. What Whites think about the use of the N-Word is IRRELEVANT, especially with respect to how Blacks may or may not use it amongst themselves. The sooner White people and their sympathizers realize the boundaries of what is their business... the better.

So talk all you want to. But realize nobody here essentially GIVES A FUCK about what White people think on this matter and the whole BLACKS CAN, WHITES CAN'T situation.

So, if you are White (and you're bringing your White BULLSHIT... To The Board) then consider your issues on this issue as one of those things WE DON'T GIVE A FUCK about.

I doubt you are capable of showing such a thing as respect to anyone who dares to show a differing view point than the one you're clearly set your heart upon.

And I doubt you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth. As for what Whites think on this issue, again... WHO GIVES A FUCK!!?

What? Do you think Whites have "right" to an opinion that has to even be entertained, much less respected on this issue? There is no such automatic respect. This is not about an academic, abstract exercise, phenomenon or curiousity. The very nature of this issue makes White opinions IRRELEVANT!

Yes, you have a right to an opinion, but you also have an obligation (in truth, honesty and this RESPECT you talk about) to know when your opinion is totally fuckin' IRRELEVANT to the very subject matter.

IRRELEVANT = of no pertinent, applicable or appropriate concern or point

That's fine, but don't think for a second that it gives your opinion any greater weight.

In others words, you even know your shit here is IRRELEVANT. But you'll post it anyways... because of your issues.

I simply don't give a damn what you think is pertinent and meaningful nor do I feel I have to explain anything about me to you.

In other words, you are White or White-like or otherwise know you're on some BULLSHIT. Just let the truth be known. No need to hide or try to 'intellectualize' shit that's IRRELEVANT. Again, what Whites think about the N-Word doesn't amount to shit. As I said, there's this obligation for you (perhaps) or whoever (WHITE) to know, believe and practice the art of knowing when your opinion matters. It simply doesn't here. For obvious reasons...

You can't simply tell someone they're wrong, case closed, you're ignorant. Not in this country and certainly not on a DISCUSSION forum.

Where is the Rule Book for all these Arbitrary ass "You Can'ts" you come up with?

"Not in this country..."
Dude, this is America, yes! But if this board is a reflection of that American model... for democracy... then the MAJORITY (of Black folks) RULES here and there's nothing you can do about that. So, yes! The MAJORITY HERE, by the standards of "this country", can very well tell you you're IGNORANT and tell you to pound sand.

Now, if you have a problem with that because you don't feel like your views are equally "respected" or considered then you should reexamine what it is you think about "this country" because That Type Of Shit Happens Every~Day in "this country".

But get your VENT On, bruh!
Get your VENT ON!

"Not on a Discussion Board"
This isn't "a" Discussion Board. This is AA.org. The MAJORITY RULES here. If you don't like it, then, again... re-examine what it seems you "think" about this country.

There is no legally sanctioned EQUALITY OF OPINIONS in "this country". Every opinion isn't equally respected or given equal space or consideration. You have been free to speak. You have your Freedom Of Speech. But don't get that confused and conflate it to a right to have others even entertain, let alone "respect" your views.

NONE of that shit exist in "this country".
So, since you hold "this country" out as an example-model... then submit yourself to that model. Here where the MAJORITY is BLACK, White Views... White Ideas... White Concerns... White Curiousities... White Debate Angles are MARGINAL and MARGINALIZED. You, whether White or not... you with your White Analized Angles are sentenced to the pheriphery. Yours is Out Of The MAIN-BLACK-STEAM.

Now, HOW DO YOU FEEL? sck
More tellingly, though, the belief among some people today that the word is newly being embraced as a term of endearment for the first time is false.

Media generated. And you know that's all Whites know... What they hear in the media...

It has ALWAYS been used by blacks, in the exact same ways in which it's used now. Even during Jim Crow, and even during enslavement. Go to any bookstore and find any book of slave narratives. The ex-slaves use the n-word to describe blacks that they loved & respected (as well as those they didn't), just like we do today.

Well, I certainly grew up with it used (internally) as a general rhetorical term, an endearing-positive term or as a base negative term... None of which I particularly find problematic at face value.

If centuries of this exact same usage has done nothing to remove the stigma of the word, then... [that]... Seems like reason enough to stop using it...

Honestly, this is a False Causality error on your part. It presumes that the simple non-use by Blacks, themselves, can remove the stigma attached to the word. Well, Blacks never created the stigma in the first place.

What's problematic is the idea that rests on the assumption that the stigma needs Black to fuel it in order for it to keep on going. That's simply ridiculous. If you can acknowledge or rather postulate that Black Self-Hatred is self-regenerating by use of the word then you would have to also acknowledge that the stigma of Blacks in the minds of Whites is self-regenerated among Whites independently of what Blacks do.

That is how you are posing this Black Self-Hatred regeneration aren't you? Saying, in essence, by continuing to use the word self-hatred is somehow kept alive by the word and the fact that it reflects on the way our ancestors (due to the traumatic experiences they faced) internalized the hatred directed at them and turned it into self-hatred.

You're saying we inherited it from them and that pattern is unbroken. While that is abundantly true, what's not exactly squaring is the idea that the word, "n***r" in and of itself, amounts to a self-inflicted trauma or form of self-hate.

When it's used as a term of endearment, however problematic the term is LITERALLY, does not make the use of it as endearing a form of self-hate. That doesn't add up. I Endear You But I Hate You and Myself in the process.

Now, I have no problem with saying Let's Not Use That Word. Don't get me wrong about that. Nor do I care to grant anyone - Black, Red, White, Blue or polka-dot - the license to use the term whenever and however they want.

Like I said, I grew up hearing (and using it is rhetorical forms mostly). Yet, even with that, I don't use the term much at all now. So when I'm back around family and people who do use it, causally, I'm taken aback. Not necessarily offended (and I hardly ever am) but taken aback, because I prefer not to use it.

In the lived experience of people who use it in the circles of endearment there are so many other things that are "traumatic" or things that give rise to internalized self-hatred that is the N-Word was such a term of automatic, categorical hatred... the N-Word would, IMO, be last in line of the Indignities that oppress the soul of Black people in terms of those things organic to their(our) enviroments.

Again, IMO, this is DWELLING ON THE SUPERFICIAL.
And I maintain that your argument for its cessation just doesn't follow because of the False Causality problem in terms of where and who/what developed, maintains and perpetuates the stigma.

If Black people stopped using the N-Word tomorrow, I believe you would be hard pressed to say that such an action would make a dent much less Remove The Stigma (Of The Word). In truth, the Stigma really isn't about the word. The Stigma is beyond the word. The N-Word is just one of many ways that Stigma is expressed/conveyed.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Your arrogant, hostile, bitter, elitist, condescending attitude has apparently shielded YOU from any sense of the true definition of the word respect.

RESPECT is your theme, not mine. You wanted to esteem some subjective (and irrelevant) notion of RESPECT. I guess it's obvious what you're objecting to. Oh poor, poor little presumed sense of your self.

Yet you have decided take it a step further and simply decide that I'm not only wrong, but should keep my mouth shut about it.

No. I'm saying your whole thread-theme is, as I said, SUPERFICIAL and really some silly shit that's IMMATERIAL and of no relevant concern... TO THE BOARD.

Perhaps you should take your issues and inquiry to a board where someone gives a fuck. But while you're here and as long as you stay, again:
Who gives a fuck about the idea that WHITES CAN'T USE the N'WORD? Who cares if WHITES feel like they should be able to use it or find it hypocritical?

What part of that didn't you understand?
Exactly what part do you find "hostile, bitter", etc., etc.? What makes it "hostile" to you? Because I stated the obvious?

Yes! Who gives a FUCK (on a Black BOARD) about what Whites think about the N-WORD?

Stand by your own stated principles, APHTER~
You said: I firmly believe in the right to difference in opinion. Well, you got the DIFFERENCE (and The Business) from me in clear, plain English. Now show some respect for my "right" to tell you what YOU want to talk about ain't about shit!

As I said, DWELLING ON THE SUPERFICIAL!
And, as for whatever Whites and advocates/sympathizers for Whites think on this issue... once more... WHO GIVES A FUCK!!!?

That's said so you can be clear.
So you can have your interpretation and even be curious, confused or otherwise concerned about other people's interpretations but those things are your issues. As for me and this board... WHO GIVES A FUCK what you think and what you're curiously curious about on this issue. What you think or find "interesting" via the "Parody" in no wise amounts to anything we should even dignify with a comment. To the extent anyone does, you should be happy. Because what you think on this matter is IRRELEVANT!

Don't let your ego get in the way of the TRUTH of the matter. What Whites think about the use of the N-Word is IRRELEVANT, especially with respect to how Blacks may or may not use it amongst themselves. The sooner White people and their sympathizers realize the boundaries of what is their business... the better.

So talk all you want to. But realize nobody here essentially GIVES A FUCK about what White people think on this matter and the whole BLACKS CAN, WHITES CAN'T situation.

So, if you are White (and you're bringing your White BULLSHIT... To The Board) then consider your issues on this issue as one of those things WE DON'T GIVE A FUCK about.

I doubt you are capable of showing such a thing as respect to anyone who dares to show a differing view point than the one you're clearly set your heart upon.

And I doubt you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth. As for what Whites think on this issue, again... WHO GIVES A FUCK!!?

What? Do you think Whites have "right" to an opinion that has to even be entertained, much less respected on this issue? There is no such automatic respect. This is not about an academic, abstract exercise, phenomenon or curiousity. The very nature of this issue makes White opinions IRRELEVANT!

Yes, you have a right to an opinion, but you also have an obligation (in truth, honesty and this RESPECT you talk about) to know when your opinion is totally fuckin' IRRELEVANT to the very subject matter.

IRRELEVANT = of no pertinent, applicable or appropriate concern or point

That's fine, but don't think for a second that it gives your opinion any greater weight.

In others words, you even know your shit here is IRRELEVANT. But you'll post it anyways... because of your issues.

I simply don't give a damn what you think is pertinent and meaningful nor do I feel I have to explain anything about me to you.

In other words, you are White or White-like or otherwise know you're on some BULLSHIT. Just let the truth be known. No need to hide or try to 'intellectualize' shit that's IRRELEVANT. Again, what Whites think about the N-Word doesn't amount to shit. As I said, there's this obligation for you (perhaps) or whoever (WHITE) to know, believe and practice the art of knowing when your opinion matters. It simply doesn't here. For obvious reasons...

You can't simply tell someone they're wrong, case closed, you're ignorant. Not in this country and certainly not on a DISCUSSION forum.

Where is the Rule Book for all these Arbitrary ass "You Can'ts" you come up with?

"Not in this country..."
Dude, this is America, yes! But if this board is a reflection of that American model... for democracy... then the MAJORITY (of Black folks) RULES here and there's nothing you can do about that. So, yes! The MAJORITY HERE, by the standards of "this country", can very well tell you you're IGNORANT and tell you to pound sand.

Now, if you have a problem with that because you don't feel like your views are equally "respected" or considered then you should reexamine what it is you think about "this country" because That Type Of Shit Happens Every~Day in "this country".

But get your VENT On, bruh!
Get your VENT ON!

"Not on a Discussion Board"
This isn't "a" Discussion Board. This is AA.org. The MAJORITY RULES here. If you don't like it, then, again... re-examine what it seems you "think" about this country.

There is no legally sanctioned EQUALITY OF OPINIONS in "this country". Every opinion isn't equally respected or given equal space or consideration. You have been free to speak. You have your Freedom Of Speech. But don't get that confused and conflate it to a right to have others even entertain, let alone "respect" your views.

NONE of that shit exist in "this country".
So, since you hold "this country" out as an example-model... then submit yourself to that model. Here where the MAJORITY is BLACK, White Views... White Ideas... White Concerns... White Curiousities... White Debate Angles are MARGINAL and MARGINALIZED. You, whether White or not... you with your White Analized Angles are sentenced to the pheriphery. Yours is Out Of The MAIN-BLACK-STEAM.

Now, HOW DO YOU FEEL? sck


I'll tell you how I feel, bruh.

I feel you're little more than an loathesome and small individual with overcompensatory and laughable pseudo-intellectual delusions of grandeur whose clearly self-appointed role as the big bad enforcer of an Internet message board gives him some superflous sense of importance. As though some pathetic long-winded diatribe tantamount to a small child's temper tandrum against someone he doesn't even know has somehow gained him artificial stature amongst...snicker.... an internet group of all places.

I'm neither the least bit impressed not intimidated. What are you so upset about? Life got you down brother? Did something traumatic in your childhood stunt your emotional growth to the point you have to lash out on the internet? Don't take it out on me, little trooper.

You claim to speak for an entire board. What's your official role here, big guy? Who appointed you offical guage of what's important enough to talk about, hmm? I'd wager no one, save yourself speaking through your own inflated ego and massive personal issues. The town maniac, the big bad bully with an axe to grind for the "cause".

Then you took it a step further and called me white or white-like. Fuck you and your irrelevant opinion of me. I'm neither white nor white-like, I'm as "black" as you are (and no EbonyRose, I'm neither of the two rappers). I'm SO sorry that along the way you learned the idea that attacking whites and other blacks "white sympathizers" as you've labelled me, made you the leading authority on blackness.

I have no illusions about this country. You're certainly right about the fact that there's no legal rule allowing for the civil and tactful discussion of another person's differing opinion. I thank you for that check. So that end, let me further adjust myself. Fuck you opinions of the song, fuck your opinions of me, and futher fuck your opinions in general.

The song was of very little importance, my man, but WHO GIVES A FUCK? You do apparently, you angry angry little guy. Your emotion speaks volumes. Did "putting me in my place" relieve some of that tension? I certainly hope so. May I suggest other ways to relieve that stress. Perhaps take a couple aspirin and have a nap. Take a personal day off from work. Go exercise. I'm not your enemy, but feel free to write another paragraph about me if it helps your out.
While you're doing all the 'fuckin'... have a little intercourse with this:

Who gives a fuck about the idea that WHITES CAN'T USE the N'WORD? Who cares if WHITES feel like they should be able to use it or find it hypocritical?

Don't get sidetrack. Don't be INTIMIDATED.
Stay on task, bruh! Talk about your topic.

quote:
Your emotion speaks volumes.
Silly... This is the way I get down.
But let's talk about THIS COUNTRY again:

Dude, this is America, yes! But if this board is a reflection of that American model... for democracy... then the MAJORITY (of Black folks) RULES here and there's nothing you can do about that. So, yes! The MAJORITY HERE, by the standards of "this country", can very well tell you you're IGNORANT and tell you to pound sand.

Now, if you have a problem with that because you don't feel like your views are equally "respected" or considered then you should reexamine what it is you think about "this country" because That Type Of Shit Happens Every~Day in "this country"...

There is no legally sanctioned EQUALITY OF OPINIONS in "this country". Every opinion isn't equally respected or given equal space or consideration. You have been free to speak. You have your Freedom Of Speech. But don't get that confused and conflate it to a right to have others even entertain, let alone "respect" your views.

NONE of that shit exist in "this country".


C'mon let's talk about the BULLSHIT you want to invoke that doesn't hold up or amount to what you obviously hoped it would.


lol... You can tell me I'M "loathesome", "small individual","overcompensating","pseudo-intellectual", V, W, X and sometimes Y all day. And all I will do is laugh. Because when it comes to that and taking shit personal (like you have) I DON'T GIVE A FUCK about what you say.

But damn, you could have at least been a bit more creative. At least add some flair to your jabs.

Again, THIS IS HOW I GET DOWN!

quote:
You claim to speak for an entire board. What's your official role here, big guy? Who appointed you offical guage of what's important enough to talk about, hmm?
Stupid dude... The opinions listed here are obvious. You would never be talking about "NOT IN THIS COUNTRY" if you felt like THE BOARD, the majority of the board (i.e. those who commented here and, perhaps, you idea about the Consensus on the board period) agreed with you or thought you ideas were/are important on this issue.

That's why your weak ass wanted to invoke (God), COUNTRY & Discussion board hoping you could artificially create a SAFE SPACE for yourself.

APHTER, no one has to appoint me nor am I "self-appointed". I've only registered HOW I FEEL. You know, my opinion. Now obviously, after all this talk about RESPECTING the opinions of others you, more or less, gave... now you want to act like you have a problem with the concept.

No official title, power, etc. needs be granted me for me to say what's SUPERFICIAL. Again:
Who gives a fuck about the idea that WHITES CAN'T USE the N'WORD? Who cares if WHITES feel like they should be able to use it or find it hypocritical?

I suggest that if you no longer want to talk about your chosen subject that you don't waste your time and emotion is futile pursuits. Yes! Saying all that jazz about me only let's me know how your temper, etc., etc. is controlling what you say: The content, the context and every single word.

That's not at all a very flattering self-display coming from you Aphter... Notice, I was still able to talk about and address things you said - challenging your assumptions and, yes, the basis or legitimacy of your inquiry.

Obviously, you brought it up for a reason. You argued your point for a reason. You INVOKED that "this country" BULLSHIT for a reason. So why aren't you talking about a subject you have heretofore presented as "important"? Now your ass is all sidetracked talking about me... to no avail.

Again, THIS IS HOW I GET DOWN!
You've only entertained me while, in effect, showing how unimportant your topic is since you so quick and easy to abandon it.

As a final review:
IRRELEVANT = of no pertinent, applicable or appropriate concern or point

"What Whites think about the use of the N-Word is IRRELEVANT, especially with respect to how Blacks may or may not use it amongst themselves. The sooner White people... realize the boundaries of what is their business... the better."

quote:
I'm SO sorry that along the way you learned the idea that attacking whites and other blacks "white sympathizers" as you've labelled me, made you the leading authority on blackness.
It's not about "attacking Whites". It's the WEAK IDEAS... Weak Ideas Irritate My Ears! And since you mentioned it (and since it's an on-going theme):
Define and Detail the Meaning, Contours and Range (i.e. the diversity) Of BLACKNESS.

That would be an interesting and legitimate topic FOR THE BOARD. Saying, "Nmag~, you don't define Blackness," for one, doesn't say that you can. If the idea is that my supposed concept of Blackness (which I have not expressed here) is not acceptable because it's subjective and/or restrictive doesn't automatically legitimize whatever you want to call or insert as Blackness; because by definition (i.e. in the absence of an OBJECTIVE one, presented by you) you very own idea upon which you object to me/mine is subjective no matter how expanded your undisclosed view might be.

"I'm Black" doesn't equal BLACKNESS, IMO.

So, let's actually have a discussion on that instead of you embarrassing yourself or otherwise wasting you time tell me "fuck you" when... when it comes to that I don't give a half a fuck in the first place. Come with some LEGITIMATE substance then we can have a "civil" conversation, debate, etc.

But, thank you for your self-display of how UNimportant your N'Word topic is... Wink
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:



If centuries of this exact same usage has done nothing to remove the stigma of the word, then... [that]... Seems like reason enough to stop using it...

Honestly, this is a False Causality error on your part. It presumes that the simple non-use by Blacks, themselves, can remove the stigma attached to the word. Well, Blacks never created the stigma in the first place.

What's problematic is the idea that rests on the assumption that the stigma needs Black to fuel it in order for it to keep on going. That's simply ridiculous. If you can acknowledge or rather postulate that Black Self-Hatred is self-regenerating by use of the word then you would have to also acknowledge that the stigma of Blacks in the minds of Whites is self-regenerated among Whites independently of what Blacks do.

That is how you are posing this Black Self-Hatred regeneration aren't you?


No. I'm not implying any causality here. I'm surprised that you would edit out the middle 80% of the paragraph I posted, and quote the first half of the first sentence and the last 1/4th of the last sentence, to create a new sentence that I didn't say. I said, If centuries of this exact same usage has done nothing to remove the stigma of the word, then that's not going to change now in the hip hop era. What I said "seems like reason to stop using" the n-word happened several lines later, and I said it was the fact that we're continuing what centuries of history tells us is a self-defeating behavior. I never said that refusing to use the word would end it's stigma. Refusing to use the word will keep the stigma of the word intact, just like the continuous ignorant embrace of it will keep the stigma intact.

The use of the word by enslaved blacks is one of those things we did that evidenced our self-hate. The question is whether we want to continue, as a matter of a personal statement, to embrace the same symbols and incidentals of self-defeat that our enslaved ancestors did.

Today's free black ongoing use of the n-word is the verbal equivalent of today's consumption of those forced staples of the slave's diet: hog maws & chit'lins. This means that the n-word is the pig intestine of the English language. So just like I believe black people should not eat these things, I believe for similar reasons we should stop using the word. Why engage in behavior that was engaged in because of imposed self-hate? Even if you do have a shred of self-hate in you, why consciously, purposely engage in behavior that evidences it? And you're right, just because you don't use it doesn't mean you lack self-hate; just because you don't use it doesn't mean that the stigma of it won't live on, or that oppression won't continue. It also doesn't mean there aren't far more important things to work on.
Wait, wait wait.....taking shit personal??

You called me white or white-like and I took it personal? Interesting interpretation of the events. I see how you "get down" and again, I'm not impressed. I never claimed to define anyone's blackness and would never attempt such a feat. However, you not only attempted such a thing, you did so and clearly decided I wasn't worthy. Good.for.you.

Your continuing to ask me "WHO GIVES A FUCK" IS truly laughable. If these weak ideas irritate you so much, why not ignore the shit? Your choosing to adress me, and with so much added vitrol, only shows me how much you DO care.

The song isn't simply about what whites think about the word, IMO. In fact, it wasn't only a white rapper, but two rappers, a black (is he white-like too?) AND a white rapper playing off one another through parody. Next time I talk to him, I'll be sure to let him know his personal deficiencies as defined by Nmaginate.

My use of "country" and "discussion board" was very specific and not in any way an attempt to shield myself. It was a direct response to the stance of absolute wrongs and rights when dealing with something as subjective as an opinion and the challenge of that ideal.

I myself do not run around concerning myself with whites think of the word. However, the song momentarily caught my interest. Apparently, in a moment of weakness, I betrayed my "blackness" in thinking it was interesting. I'd apologize on behalf of myself and the other guy in the song, but I simply don't care enough to do so.

People didn't like the song? Didn't like the topic? Felt it was UNimportant? Please, get real. I'm well aware and believe me, I've had much worse things happen to me in my life. I didn't make the song and am making no money off of it. Trust me, I'll get over it. The one mistake I made was expecting some basic courtesy on this board and I will not make that mistake again.

In fact, I WAS quite over it until big bad boisterous Nmaginate decided he needed to clear ol' Afterthought right out of the thread. Overcompensate much, bruh? And for what, I wonder...

The next time I decide to post a topic on this board, I'll run it right by you alright? If for no other reason than to spare you the obvious pain it caused you.
quote:
Originally posted by aphterthought:
(and no EbonyRose, I'm neither of the two rappers)


Well, judging by some of your responses to Nmaginate, I can certainly see I originally erred in my thinking! Smile I apologize if I offended you.

I guess as my closing comment I would like to say that, you came on the board and posted the link to that song seemingly to gain an opinion by the members of the board about it. (Nmaginate notwithstanding) I think that most of us responded with our opinions in a non-hostile manner ... as a matter of honest discussion. It's just that those opinions were different from yours and, I believe, unanimously in the negative against the use of the word. Perhaps it was not the response you were looking for. But, everyone is entitled to their opinion ... and I, for one, have no problem respecting yours, and I would hope that you, in turn, are able to respect ours.

Nmaginate brings our the worst in everyone ... but, no, he is not the gatekeeper of the posts and opinions on this board. You can post here until MBM says you can't! Smile And he, unfortunately, doesn't say it nearly enough for my tastes! But, that's another thread! Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by aphterthought:
This song is getting some attention in my area. It's a parody by a black and white rapper named Illbotz about the word.
Aside from the obvious lack of originality, that song would get no airplay on my "radio station". That shit is CORNY...

As far as the n-word is concerned, why make a song about it? If the makers of that songs are truly righteous people, why even be concerned whether of not you can say the word? Why does the, I am assuming white, rapper feel the need to use it in the first place? Does he feel that he is missing out on some sort of "kindredness" with Black people?

The bottom line is this: anyone is "free" to use the english language as they please, but with freedom comes responsibility. Using the word can elicit some unintended consequences. In other words, if he (white rapper) or anyone else uses it in reference to me, expect a beatdown.
quote:
Why does the, I am assuming white, rapper feel the need to use it in the first place? Does he feel that he is missing out on some sort of "kindredness" with Black people?


Yes. Every time I hear an interview with a white rap artist or see a white comedian in front of a Black audience, this dead horse is revived momentarily with a set of jumper cables. That says to me that certain white folks are just itching to be able to call us that to our faces again without a requisite beatdown.

P.S. Welcome to the board, aphterthought. If you have a spare moment, skip on down to the New Member section. I'd like to know more about you (besides the fact that you aren't white... LOL)! Razz
quote:
Refusing to use the word will keep the stigma of the word intact, just like the continuous ignorant embrace of it will keep the stigma intact.
My point was that the stigma exist with or without Black people using the N-Word. That is, what Black people do as far as the N-Word is concerned has nothing to do with the Stigma...

And so you gripe about me "editing" your post but yet come back with the same essential response: THAT BLACK PEOPLE KEEP THE STIGMA "IN TACT".

Whether its False Causality or not (I couldn't think or a more precise way to characterize it, so "causality" may not be completely fitting), my point stands because you are trying to say Black people are in some ways responsible for a Stigma they didn't create, don't maintain much less perpetuate (on their own).

Your point just does not connect. PERIOD.
If and when Black folk use the N-Word in (quote... unquote) non-negative ways then, by definition, there is no Stigma that goes along with the word because there is no negative meaning conveyed. So, really, your point doesn't address the "That's My N***a!" rhetorical use of the term. In fact, it is inapplicable there.

I'm saying the STIGMA expressed in the Word, exist outside of the word. So, actually, I'm coming from a perspective close to Aphterthoughts, I presume. While I'm not saying "It's Just A Word", what I am saying is that there is more to the N-Word than the word itself and the word is only a manifestation-expression of a deep Stigma that is far beyond the word.

I've argued with certain self-professed COLORBLIND Whites, who posit that by refusing to use RACE designators (Black, White, etc.) that RACISM can be addressed, cured or lessened. They're idea is that it is RACE (using those designators in speaking about "race") that is keeping RACISM alive.

That same type of flawed thinking is what you are using here. Just as I argued that there would be "racism" (discrimination based on phenotypical, cultural traits) even without "RACE", I'm saying that the Stigma we see in the N-Word will persist regardless and there is no way you can quantify how (and if) Black people are contributing to "keeping the Stigma in tact".

The rhetoric sounds good but the reality that the Stigma would be there with or without Black self-hatred disproves your theory.

The N*GGER Stigma existed before there was a term, I would think. And it damn sure existed before Black people internalized it. So, I just don't see your point adding up.
quote:
If centuries of this exact same usage has done nothing to remove the stigma of the word,
That was the statement my response to you were based on.

There you are saying Black people using the word, perhaps in the Endearing way as a way to take the sting out of it, hasn't changed the Stigma. That's what I was saying was flawed and fallacious.

I was saying that you posed an impossible feat for Black use of the word to even begin to accomplish because Black people are not the source or the cause or even the thing perpetuating the stigma (for the most part).

quote:
Today's free black ongoing use of the n-word is the verbal equivalent of today's consumption of those forced staples of the slave's diet: hog maws & chit'lins. This means that the n-word is the pig intestine of the English language. So just like I believe black people should not eat these things, I believe for similar reasons we should stop using the word. Why engage in behavior that was engaged in because of imposed self-hate? Even if you do have a shred of self-hate in you, why consciously, purposely engage in behavior that evidences it?
Had you have said it like that before, I would have shut my damn mouth.... lol

No, seriously, that's an insightful way of putting it. And I think you for that vivid insight. Enuf said on that...

quote:
And you're right, just because you don't use it doesn't mean you lack self-hate; just because you don't use it doesn't mean that the stigma of it won't live on, or that oppression won't continue. It also doesn't mean there aren't far more important things to work on.
And that's exactly why I called it DWELLING ON THE SUPERFICIAL.

Really, the Stigma exist in the material, social and psychological conditions that really have little to do with the word "n*gger"... It's the fact that too many of our lives are in the "N*gger" predicament and circumstances. We can talk about that, as we often do, but the OPPRESSION that lives on, not only oppresses in physical terms it also oppresses the mind.

It seems to me that Black people have internalized concepts of being a "n*gger" to a degree that really has little to do with themselves. Again, as I see it, the negatives of "N*gger" that Black people use is just an utterance of the obvious -- perceived, real or a combination -- degraded (comparatively) experience.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

...really, your point doesn't address the "That's My N***a!" rhetorical use of the term. In fact, it is inapplicable there.


On the contrary, I think I addressed exactly that point, when I pointed out that this exact same type of usage has been common among blacks since well before emancipation.

quote:
quote:
So just like I believe black people should not eat these things, I believe for similar reasons we should stop using the word. Why engage in behavior that was engaged in because of imposed self-hate? Even if you do have a shred of self-hate in you, why consciously, purposely engage in behavior that evidences it?

Had you have said it like that before, I would have shut my damn mouth.... lol


Does that mean there's no need for me to respond to the rest of the post before that one? You've been hung up on MY use of the word "stigma" and black people's contribution thereof, but MY mention of that is only to the extent necessary to tell Aphterthought that s/he's wrong when he says the hip-hop generation's use of the n-word removes the sting of the n-word. I never said that we ADD to it or even contribute to it by using it so freely. All I'm saying is that it evidences ongoing self-hate and that embracing the same behavior that has always been self-hating is silly.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
Why does the, I am assuming white, rapper feel the need to use it in the first place? Does he feel that he is missing out on some sort of "kindredness" with Black people?


Yes. Every time I hear an interview with a white rap artist or see a white comedian in front of a Black audience, this dead horse is revived momentarily with a set of jumper cables. That says to me that certain white folks are just itching to be able to call us that to our faces again without a requisite beatdown.


It's because White people aren't used to having things they can't do in this society. Their white privelege makes them think they should have the right to do anything ...especially when it comes to this particular subject, because it's really strange for them to be told [i]they can't[i] do something by Black folks!
quote:
Originally posted by Michael:
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
In a nutshell, aphterthought, the stigma of the N-word will die when white supremacy dies.


.....but numerous Black people call each other the N-word on a daily basis, as if being called the N-word is some badge of honor!

....Sure can't blame this activity on white supremacy or racist Caucasians!


WHite supremacy permiates every fascet of society, it effects everything, including its VICTIMS.... Or does your dumb a** think we were/are walking around Africa calling each other the N word in mass. Oh, I forgot it developped from a West African anguage sub-group.

Get a clue White man.
quote:
VOX:

I never said that we ADD to it or even contribute to it by using it so freely.
This is not a genuine point. I can accept whatever part where I responded a little off because of what you were responding to (Aphterthought)... but the idea that we keep the Stigma intact is still ridiculous.

This is ridiculous and doesn't make your Stop Using The Word point:
Refusing to use the word will keep the stigma of the word intact, just like the continuous ignorant embrace of it will keep the stigma intact.

If or since the Stigma is intact either way?
Then what forwards your point about the value of stopping it (stop using the N-Word)? Since you related all of this to the Stigma?

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