How do we define 'sexism'?

It's not sexist when a man indicates his preference either for a woman, or in attributes of a woman.

That's simply personal.

The same is true for being threatened by intellect greater than his.

That's simply personal.

The Million Man March was about men. It wasn't about excluding women. This the mentality that says women need to be able to go into men's locker rooms to have parity in their profession of sports reporting. At the same time, however, men may not go into women's locker rooms to perform the same function.

Sexism is doing well throughout our society. I don't know how to measure the difference.

Chauvinism used to be the yardstick.

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
It's not sexist when a man indicates his preference either for a woman, or in attributes of a woman.

That's simply personal.

The same is true for being threatened by intellect greater than his.

That's simply personal.

The Million Man March was about men. It wasn't about excluding women. This the mentality that says women need to be able to go into men's locker rooms to have parity in their profession of sports reporting. At the same time, however, men may not go into women's locker rooms to perform the same function.

Sexism is doing well throughout our society. I don't know how to measure the difference.

Chauvinism used to be the yardstick.

PEACE

Jim Chester

Obvious/ overt sexism isn't really tolerated in western society anymore, yet I think most of us would agree that we still live in a sexist society. In my view, the examples I gave are instances where sexism manifests itself subtly.

For example taking the man expecting to get a younger woman issue - that is sexist because the attitude is that the woman must somehow have more to offer a man (in this case youth) than the man offers the woman. An analogy would be the area of race where blacks tend to have to be better qualified than whites to get the same job - the idea being that blacks somehow have to make up for being black by having more to offer. I know this is longwinded but I think it's a useful analogy to illustrate the point I'm trying to make. Anyway hopefully anyone who is open minded will see what I am trying to say.

quote:

Originally posted by CLARE:

quote:

Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
It's not sexist when a man indicates his preference either for a woman, or in attributes of a woman.

That's simply personal.

The same is true for being threatened by intellect greater than his.

That's simply personal.

The Million Man March was about men. It wasn't about excluding women. This the mentality that says women need to be able to go into men's locker rooms to have parity in their profession of sports reporting. At the same time, however, men may not go into women's locker rooms to perform the same function.

Sexism is doing well throughout our society. I don't know how to measure the difference.

Chauvinism used to be the yardstick.

PEACE

Jim Chester

Obvious/ overt sexism isn't really tolerated in western society anymore, yet I think most of us would agree that we still live in a sexist society. In my view, the examples I gave are instances where sexism manifests itself subtly.

For example taking the man expecting to get a younger woman issue - that is sexist because the attitude is that the woman must somehow have more to offer a man (in this case youth) than the man offers the woman.

But isn't the reason why society doesn't frown upon older men going with younger women because females go through puberty earlier than males anyway? Many 14-year-old girls don't usually date 14-year-old boys; they date older boys, or at least date guys that are going through puberty at the same time they are, which usually are older.

But I agree with you on the race issue, where blacks have to have Herculean credits almost to get a prestigious job, where a white person just show up white.

One more thing, they did have a Million Woman March, and after that a Million Family March.

We are going to have to do something besides march; that's so 20th century. Marching without any other plans for progress, leads to worn-out shoes.

quote:

Originally posted by Huey:
But isn't the reason why society doesn't frown upon older men going with younger women because females go through puberty earlier than males anyway? Many 14-year-old girls don't usually date 14-year-old boys; they date older boys, or at least date guys that are going through puberty at the same time they are, which usually are older.

I disagree. I think that teenagers are more likely to date people their own age, and teenage boys/ men in their early 20s often date older girls/women. It's when men get older that some start focusing on younger women (perhaps when they start getting conscious of their own age!).

I think the earlier puberty issue (assuming this is correct) is balanced out by the fact that women tend to live longer than men. However, I am not keen on using 'nature' to justify male/ female relations.

Sometimes I end a disagreement with my girl by telling her to know her role, is that sexist?

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
Sometimes I end a disagreement with my girl by telling her to know her role, is that sexist?

I am not sure I understand the context of the disagreement, however if by telling her she should 'know her role' meant she should 'know her place' as a woman, then yes, I think that is sexist.

So any system in which we acknowledge our physical/spiritual/and intellectual differences as men and women is sexist?
I think it's sexist that I have to pull out chairs, open doors, fix the carboreutor, take out the trash, and ladies first. I think sexism is women wanting their cake and yada yada. I'm quick to give womem their due reverence, I just don't like when they don't know their role.

I treat women as equals(which they are) all the time...but they themselves will voluntarily defer themselves to a "lesser" position or role when things get tough and "let" the man jhandle the rough stuff.............

I would venture to state that the rate of sexism is the same in black America as it is in white. Maybe more in the black. Reason being we are generally less educated.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
Sometimes I end a disagreement with my girl by telling her to know her role, is that sexist?

Absolutely!

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
So any system in which we acknowledge our physical/spiritual/and intellectual differences as men and women is sexist?

If that system attempts to make essentialist, absolutist, normative claims that correspond to ones sex, I believe that it is sexist. Much of what we take as normal is a social construct, and is not universal.

quote:

I think it's sexist that I have to pull out chairs, open doors, fix the carboreutor, take out the trash, and ladies first.

Why do you have to do this? Is someone forcing you to do it?

quote:

I think sexism is women wanting their cake and yada yada. I'm quick to give womem their due reverence, I just don't like when they don't know their role.

As written, there appears to be implied a position/status of superiority with respect to women such that you can chastise her for not complying what you understand to be her "role". Unless she has voluntarily expressed her desire to adhere to some role, I do not think that anyone has the right to demand that she comply. That, again, is sexist to my mind.

Do you think it's sexist when female models can be in any shape (anorexic/stick-like, fitness model[muscle-toned yet still have womanly curves] or plus-sized)...but all male models are just one way, tall, square-jawed, athletically chiseled with sixpack abs? There are Moniques and Kim Coles to represent BBW models, but where are the Al Rokers to represent heavy set dudes?

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
Sometimes I end a disagreement with my girl by telling her to know her role, is that sexist?

Damn!

Damn!!!

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
Sometimes I end a disagreement with my girl by telling her to know her role, is that sexist?

Uhhmm yes!...because that is implying that she hasn't got the right to argue her point.

If she was arguing for argumnets sake then maybe you should ask her to "use logic" or "know when to give up arguing"...but what role exactly are women supposed to play in an argument if we genuinely feel that we are arguing over something justifyable? The womens role is to be quiet?

Also, I am personally big on doing the cooking and cleaning and having my man take car of the car and the trash...So I do practice the "traditional role" thing.

But I also think since I cook and clean (which is contributing to the relationship) that it earns me just as much of a right to speak my mind as the man...

The openning of the door thing...that comes out of Europe...just like women walking on the inside of the sidewalk...

If you are opening the door for me that means I am going in or out first...I am taking on any danger that is inside or outside of that door...I will take the "blows"..it isn't the role of a man IMO to send me out to make sure everything is clear so he can decide to or not to enter/exit into the situation I'm being sent to confront. Not very protective...You are supposed to go in/out first so you can make sure where you are bringing me/your family is safe.

P.S. Men walked on the outside of the sidewald in Europe because the nightly excrament...aka feces and urine were thrown out of the window...so it would land on the women intead of him...he walked towards the curb or street.

We are both contributing to the family/relationship, just in different ways. One way of contributing is not superior to the other IMO. Especially since we both work. We are equals and one person shouldn't be subservient to the other.

I this the buddhist chinese girl you spoke of in another thread that "celebrates" you?

quote:

Originally posted by CLARE:
...for example, I always feel that it is sexist when the age range a man stipulates for his ideal woman is no older than him/ has to be younger...

When Vivica Fox dated 50 cent, was that sexist? I am not playing "tit for tat" I ask because I really want to know.

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I think it was sexist when the Million Man March (1995) excluded women...

It may have very well been sexist... but it was also very necessary. Brothers for a long time now have been irresponsible in their dealings with each other and with the sisters. The MMM was intended to call brothers out and let them know. Even at very serious minded event like the MMM, brothers can be distracted - we needed to be focused in order to hear the message. No disrespect to my sisters, but I applaud Farrakhan for doing so - no one else has.

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I think it's sexist if a man is threatened by an intelligent woman.

I think it is only sexist if he acts upon his fear negatively.

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Are sexist attitudes more prevalent in the black community than the mainstream?

I think that sexism is prevalent in every facet of society. Sisters are traditionally more outspoken than their white counterparts - making them more of a target to those who are sexist.

I think it's sexist that women have this extremist agenda on issues of abortion, child support, and alimony. Men are practically held hostage. Child support is in alot of cases just ransom money. Alimony should almost be thrown out all together. Nobody thinks that over half a Man's livelyhood is a bit extreme?

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
I think it's sexist that women have this extremist agenda on issues of abortion, child support, and alimony. Men are practically held hostage. Child support is in alot of cases just ransom money. Alimony should almost be thrown out all together. Nobody thinks that over half a Man's livelyhood is a bit extreme?

In the African/Black community I know absolutely nobody who pays alimony... I've actually only heard about rich folks dealing with that as an issue. Because usually alimony is paid when women are used to a certain "lifestyle"...and the court enforces the former husband to amintain it... and I don't think they mean the "lifestyle of poverty"...

I know very few women who actually recieve consistant child support even though it is due to them and their child(ren). And from the last statistics I've seen about 50%+ of African/Back children are raise in a single parent household. Considering these factors isn't what you are saying is sexism is pretty much a non-issue...especially for "us"?

And isn't it a man's "role" to take care of his family anyhow?

Yes, alimony is pretty much a non-issue for us. As far as child support goes, I'm talking about the underlying belief that for whatever reason, ultimately the child belongs with his mother, if the system were less sexist, there would be alot less single mothers and alot more single dads.

Yes, it is ABSOLUTELY a man's ROLE to take care of his family.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
Yes, alimony is pretty much a non-issue for us. As far as child support goes, I'm talking about the underlying belief that for whatever reason, ultimately the child belongs with his mother, if the system were less sexist, there would be alot less single mothers and alot more single dads.

Yes, it is ABSOLUTELY a man's ROLE to take care of his family.

I still don't think that is sexist. The state of the African/Black family is completely different and has it's own threads.

We give birth to them anfter carrying them for 9 months, and breast feed them...men can wander away before they even are born...we can't. It's just nature.

It's just a social outcome of human reproduction for the child to be with the mother. Maybe if we had fertility gestations like seahorses their would be a lot more single fathers.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
Yes, alimony is pretty much a non-issue for us. As far as child support goes, I'm talking about the underlying belief that for whatever reason, ultimately the child belongs with his mother, if the system were less sexist, there would be alot less single mothers and alot more single dads.

Yes, it is ABSOLUTELY a man's ROLE to take care of his family.

If the father is willing, present, and stable, there is almost always the possibility of joint/shared custody. If this obtains, child support is usually amended to take this into consideration. Otherwise, if the father is not willing to take on such responsibilities, then he should be financially liable for the support of his child(ren).