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Send humans to mars, at a cost of trillions of dollars or place money and effort is solving the problem of racial economic and social inequality? Which is a more worthy pursuit and goal and why?

I find it hard to fathom how a righteous person could object to reparations or any other means of expediting the repair of racial economic gaps born from centuries of slavery and apartheid, yet, not object to spending trillions on sending projectiles and humans to Mars.

Black people should vehemently reject having our tax dollars spent on such activity, while the continued economic and social problems of this nation, manifesting from a history of discrimination, continue.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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Noah The African in America
Vita vya panzi (ni) furaha ya kunguru. War among grasshoppers delights the crow. Msema kweli hana wajoli. The speaker of truth has few friends. ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( Noah The African in America
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I'm all for sending unmanned robotic missions to mars and elsewhere in the solar system on a mission to increase human knowledge, science, and exploration. Such missions are relatively cheap, and do little to impare other objectives.

But sending humans to mars? Then the mission is no longer about science. The mission then becomes, "How do we keep the meat alive, and how much are we willing to spend to do it?" Eek

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The Nuclear Resister
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Cauca, Colombia

I'm gonna stray a little from the topic of this post, but I think more money should be spend on environmental studies. I think we should worry more about our own planet than "neighboring" planets.

Money spent in environmental engineering research, public health, and other related areas will directly benefit a lot more people than the few politicians and NASA employees that benefit from this.

My $.02 (BTW, I'm not a hippie brocool)

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Napoleon Bonaparte
00Negro,

You're from JHU? Cool! I was a grad student there once upon a time. That's where I got my PhD from. (It was the only place that would take me, but that's another story.)

Is Steve Muller still the Prez there? He tried to get me kicked out of the math dept once. He didn't like what we did to his desk... rotflmao

Are there still protests out at the JHU Applied Physics Lab? When I was there we had a CD out there on the roof every Jan 15 for MLK's birthday. Ages 6 to adult. The cops had to bring us down with cherry pickers.

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The Nuclear Resister
School of the Americas Watch
miserable failure



Cauca, Colombia



[This message was edited by ricardomath on January 14, 2004 at 08:07 PM.]
God help 'em if they ever have to step out of the space suits. What if they turn GREEN or something? We'll have to discover some derogatory NAMES for THEM!! Maybe Green-iggers, Marsiggers, Mooniggers. The body is going to have to adjust to the NEW ENVIRONMENT or lack thereof. It's gonna be a hot mess!!

***********
The petty bourgeoisie are the first to sell out. When they obtain status their lives generally lose both content and significance. - Black Consciousness
What is the benefit/cost analysis of such adventures? To date, I aware of only a few human benefits of space exploration. Yes, I am aware that now we have satellites orbiting the earth that improves our ability to communicate and pick up hundreds of channels on TV, live even. However, that is more related to rocket science, I would think. I am sure there are other little known benefits as well.

I think the primary benefit is for "trekies" or people who like to fantasize about life imitating art and going were no man has gone before. Not that I am against such, its just that the timing is so wrong. I believe that earth should get its house in order, equalize the distribution of wealth and strive to make humans work together for communal goals as opposed to always competing with one and other. When such has been accomplished, then a federation of nations can jointly work on the goals of space exploration, in the spirit of cooperation. Today, our primary motive might simply PRESTIGE born from being the FIRST to do it. It is about status and status is a competition driven phenomenon that hoards resources and allocating them away from the masses, just so that the few can become elite.

What would people think if Nigeria came out and said it will try to send humans to Mars? The first thing that people would think is that it is absurd, due to the fact that the nation has so much poverty, the money could be better spent. Well, why does the USA have so much money? A large part of the reason why was built off the same phenomenon that created so much racial inequality in this nation and world. Yet, It is not a priority of interest of the elites to fix the aftermath or opposite resultant of their wealth creation.

Norland...that was funny. How about "red sand N1ggers" Big Grin

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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Noah The African in America
The reason being is that MONEY is the biggest motivating factor in our socioeconomic system. I could argue... "Why do you think money will help us reach Mars"? If you can come up with a valid correlation between money and reaching the goals of space exploration, then I dare say that you could create the same correlation about reaching the goals of racial equality. However, that assumes that you are objective and unbiased.... which you likely are not.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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Noah The African in America
The "American Way" is to throw money at a problem until it goes away- and it usually makes the problem worse (ie prisons, welfare etc). We don't need more money to change the world, we need a "renewing of the mind"....I'm all for building a colony on the moon- I don't think that a man can make it to Mars but you never know unless you try....
Try using that philosophy in your own life. Why do you need more money? Why do you strive for more money? Why do employers throw money at you to solve problems and perform tasks for them? Why is money a valid instrument for problem solving in the private sector, but invalid in the public sector? If money has been thrown at problems and the problems have failed to be solved, it is more likely do to a poor planning, poor oversight, poor funding or a combination thereof. It is simply asinine to conclude that there is no correlation between money and problem solving in this nation.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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Noah The African in America
It doesn't have to be an either/or situation. Race reconciliation does not have to come at the expense of space exploration. The resources required for both are as different as the methods employed to achieve either endeavor. Moreover a cost benefit analysis would have to extend beyond a simple listing of inventions that stemmed from space exploration. We should think about all the industries and their socioeconomic impacts that resulted from space technology.From telecommunications to food processing. Each of which have utilized low-skill labor just as often as the more obvious high skill professions.
Frankly, we need to spend more on "trekkie" science and get away from depending so much on low skill service and manufactoring industries for employment. That can't happen unless high skill jobs are created by developing hotbeds for new technologies like ocean and space exploration.
Nations like Nigeria are only improving like they are because they are devoting resources to next generation technology like a completely wireless communication network. Nigeria would only benefit from pushing revenue from the oil industry into a space program. that would stop a lot of the brain drain that has led to so many Nigerian engineers and mathematicians seeking employment in American Labs.
First of all, when resources and funds are finite, that allocation of those funds is a zero sum game. The more that goes to one area proportionally reduces what can go to one or more other areas. So your proposition of either or is simply false to the degree that it suggest that one goal is not effected by the other.

Furthermore, reconciliation of race has already taken place in the minds of white folk. Black people have not and will not reconcile race until social and economic equality or parity is reached.

As far as your theory goes about the economic benefit of space exploration, you failed to make your case. Science creates automation and efficiencies that increase productivity and reduce the need for workers in the long run. Thus, although it may be true that some jobs related to space discoveries were created, you failed to mention the jobs that were eliminated. Remember that this nation reached the theoretical full employment rate, many times before we went into space. Thus, space exploration did not created new jobs, while others jobs were being phased out due to new technologies and productivity gains.

What you also ignore is that amount of money that must be spent dealing problems that result from a disequilibria of wealth and resources. It cost 25,000 dollars a year for each person in prison. Not to mention the court cost for crimes and the higher prices and insurance premiums that must be paid to offset the prevalence of theft, much of which come from the poor. Furthermore, the billions that must be spent to secure our homeland from people unhappy about our double standards and arrogance in world politics and policy.

Thus, promoting a more equitable society and world would actually pay for itself in the long run. This is a more immediate and needed concern today, than is some yet unknown benefit that could come 50 years from now as a result of ramping up spending on space exploration.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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Noah The African in America
I like your response but here is where I differ.
If we follow your theory to completion, the same way you contend new categories of jobs simply replaced or even reduced the supply of "old" jobs with space exploration. One can also contend "new more productive" efforts at reconciliation replaced or even decreased the effectiveness of "old" efforts of race reconciliation.
For instance, the civil rights movement presumably through integration sought "equality" for AA through equal access. But it really caused the diffusion of black power by destabilizing the black community through the loss of the black middle class to white communities. Hence the old effort which produced spacially intact black communities with full economic representation of all classes was given up for the new "integration" effort which left the community in shambles and has to this point primarily benefitted the black middle class.
I don't necessarily believe that or that this is a zero sum game.
Resources in the case of any social endeavor are actually infinite or nearly so. Primarily because we are talking about human behavior, which is more qualitative than quantitative. There may be a finite number of dollar bills or even classes of behavior but there is an almost infinite number of combinations of the behaviors found therein. It is possible to do nothing at all and be productive. Your example of the prison industrial complex is perfect, except you assume the criminal response mechanism of allocating resources is actually necessary or in fact offsets the prevalence of crime. There are many criminal responses of the poor that are simply ignored for good reason. The blind eye turned to these crimes are doubly effective by actually allowing the poor to supplement their income in ways not possible in a legit econ.system. Black market services like illegal and unregistered cosmetology shops actually benefit the poor and society.
The larger point is a social endeaver like Racial reconciliation does not have to necessarily cost anything at all. We can "simply" change our behavior. Whereas space exploration has actual discernable and direct costs that don't change simply because we want them too.
What you have essentially noted is the theory that every action eventually will produce an equal and opposite reaction. This is also Newtonian law of physics, which applies due to the universe being matter and energy and that includes our design and workings as human physical entities or objects.

Assuming that this theory is true, there can never truly be progress. As one thing is gained another is lost. The allusion of progress takes place when the opposite reaction can be conserved into the future, thereby allowing the benefit to manifest in the present, without having to deal with the corresponding cost. Also, the burden of the cost can be shifted from the entity that is receiving the benefits, thus progressing one entity, while regressing another or other entities.

Newton also noted that any object in a state of equilibrium that is removed from equilibrium by an outside force would require an equal and opposite outside force to restore equilibrium. The forces that pushed black and white people out of equilibrium with each other require and equal and opposite force to restore it. Energies need to be redirected in an equal and opposite way to the way they have been directed over the last 400 years. Energies and resources manifest in our society via the conduit of money. Thus, creating equilibrium requires a commitment of dollars.

A closed system is characterized by finiteness. Finiteness will always result in a zero sum game in regards to allocation of any finite resource that is being rationed due to scarcity. Money in this nation is finite at any given point in time and the allocation of money, at constant value, will always be a zero sum game.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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Noah The African in America
quote:
Originally posted by ThaWatcher:
More money doesn't aleviate problems Noah, as a matter of fact it sometimes causes more problems! I submit that a "renewing of the mind" would be more beneficial to our social problems than any amount of money. I wonder why this conversation comes up anytime NASA goes on a mission?....
ThaWather,

"THIS" conversation comes up... All The Time!
It has nothing to do with NASA. "This" conversation has been presented when the $87 billion was first proposed for Iraq... and any other issue...

POLITICAL SCIENCE 101
Politics and government is about:
_____
  • WHO decides WHO gets WHAT! _____

    So money - and resources by any other name - is ALWAYS the topic of conversation here. Sorry if our Black PRIORITIES are not in-line with those of those you seem to rather esteem here. Asking, wondering, questioning why this is an issue is all too revealing about you, Watcher...

    I will "SUBMIT" that the reason why "Throwing Money" at a problem in this U.S.A. when it comes to Black People has been problematic in its half-hearted application and ill-conceived planning.

    It goes without saying that the aspect of problems that impact the African-American community have never been addressed with adequate funds and, most importantly, under that primary if not singular control of the African-American community.

    So, as always, before you use so shallow cliche' type of a principle... why don't you ask yourself the question why that is the case.

    MONEY... too much money is NOT! the problem.

    Like Noah suggested... I'm sure you have areas in you personal life where "too much" money really makes things difficult for you to manage and instead of "fixing" problems (for you) "all that money" only goes to cause "more" problems. Roll Eyes

    Yes! And I bet it's the "money's" fault whenever it doesn't do what you intended! Roll Eyes
  • While I believe that we should be exploring the universe around us, I think that we should be exploring how we can uplift portions of our society that are still left out of what is suppose to be the American Dream whatever that is now a days.

    Granted this money that will be spend 10 or 20 years down the road but can anyone say that the money could still not be used for something more worth while like education, health care or some other social issue.
    Explore space??? Not until we've resolved the issues here on this planet. The money spent on a fantastic voyage, would be better spent on our home grown problems, like healthcare, education, border issues, etc., not to mention racial equality/parity.

    Besides, to be honest, if a ship ever makes it to Mars, I really don't want it coming back. There is just too much out there in the universe that we know nothing about. They could bring back something that could wipe out all of mankind. Hasn't anyone seen the Andronomous(sp?) Strain?

    Hope ... Let's just stay put and work on here.
    Andromeda Strain is a good movie, probably one of the best that takes a look at what happens when we bring stuff back to earth without knowing what to expect if it got out into the open air.

    Of course you know the whole premise evolved around a secret government facility that no one knew anything about.....hmmmm, I wonder? naw those things don't really exist in the real world its just science fiction fro
    Hey watcher, what does not have to theoritically occur is pure theory that ignores the reality of human prejudice and competition for status. The practical reality is that it does amount to one or the other.

    Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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    Noah The African in America
    Noah the African,
    I fall back on my assertion that social endeavers are predicated on human behaviors and interactions, which are for all intents and purposes infinite in their supply. Our imagination and ability for insight is qualitative in nature and are consequently not confined by the laws of physics Newton espoused. I understand what you have said thus far to mean--we have quantified the human experience through "the conduit of money." I disagree not in so much that we have not tried but rather that in trying we have attempted to do the impossible and thus failed. Social endeavors such as racial reconciliation which are based on qualitative things such as the human experience require as much or as little resources as we arbitrarily assign to them. In physics, with gravity for instance, regardless of the semantics I use to describe the attraction between to two objects the energy exchanged is neither arbitrary or a "decision." To bring it back to space travel versus racial reconciliation. The allocation of finite resources "required" for Racial reconciliation is an arbitrary decision whereas the resources required for space flight are not arbitrary. As such the two endeavors should not be compared or weighed against each other, for it is possible apply any price tag to one and not the other.For example one can ask why we put any resources into any scientific endeavor as long as the "social" condition of poverty exists.I think you would agree the two are possibly related but not necessarily in causal manner. Instead we canstrive to accomplish both, so long as the "social endeavor" taps into the infinite supply of humanity's potential.
    quote:
    Originally posted by ThaWatcher:
    We can play "What I would do if I had those billions all day long" (as most people do when they see a news report with a huge dollar amount). As an poster above mentioned, we don't have to sacrifice space exploration for racial equality. We don't have to forsake one to advance the other....
    First, who are you talking to?

    Second, I agree with that but what you tend to say and emphasize, I think, shows where you heart is at. Words mean something both with what you say or don't... and HOW you say them.
    quote:
    WATCHER:

    What makes you think that money is able to solve the problem of racial equality?
    Could you explain the reasoning behind that question? What is "the problem of racial equality" by your estimation? Why would you propose or suppose that anyone thinks that money "solve" it as you seem to imply some in once-in-for-all type of measure?

    Is that realistic? Are you assuming that Noah and/or others are being unrealistic?

    ___________________________
    quote:
    we don't have to sacrifice space exploration for racial equality.
    Again, we see where you emphasis lie. (on space exploration).

    I mean... are you really suggesting that there is some full throttle (or hell even a 1/2 or 1/4 or 1/32 throttle) attempt to really address "racial equality"?

    C'mon WATCHER!
    I hope you're just treating this in a academic fashion (as in an abstract matter of principle - i.e. something DIVORCED and devoid of reality. You know... just making a point.)

    The problem with that is that such a point is DIVORCED from reality.

    It's funny though... when it comes to issues essentially talking about allocating particular funds to African-Americans you hear very little "WE CAN DO BOTH" type of arguments in the sense of full thrust/throttle efforts to meet the demands and challenges of an African-American Initiative along with whatever else there is. All the talk is about how "selfish", unfair, if not "racist" it is for there to be a particular FUND, program, etc. EXCLUSIVELY for a "Black" program.

    So, Watcher... spare me the great concern you have for "racial equality". Roll Eyes
    Remember, you want us to stop making things "racial"...

    And, if I got you wrong... here's the thing!
    Why don't explain what it is you would like to see done on the 'racial equality' front! brosmile

    Or is that too upFRONT?
    Does that FRONT you off?
    ... and does that show that you are FRONTING?
    Here's a question for you, WATCHER:

    When was the last time there was a 'bold' annoucement and unveiling of a "RACIAL EQUALITY EXPLORATION" - i.e. a plan that would ADVANCE our society if not mankind in that area?

    BTW, I'm not talking about Town Hall Meetings...
    I'm talking about FUNDING the [social] scientist to put their years of hard work and study to use in a practical sense to address 'The Final Frontier'...
    *********************************
    quote:
    The practical reality is that it does amount to one or the other.

    TO THAWATCHER:

    upfro Yeah! What Noah said!

    If you disagree, demonstrate how it is otherwise via policies such as Iraq, etc. where it was not only African-Americans that felt that that $87 bil could have been better spent...

    Show me were there is equal or at least significant proportional funding of other initiative(s) that where high on the public agenda/demands at the same time.

    I'm asking you to support your Cliches' with some substance. You seem pretty sharp... it should be an easy task for you.

    I await your thoughtful response.
    Whether or not we like it the largest social program we have is the criminal justice system. The allocation of resources in this manner is actually part of the problem. The best well intentioned programs do not measure up to the informal networks of support we had that were in large part free.
    Right now the primary source of mental health treatment for children is the delinquency system. People actually bring their children to court seeking their placement on "probation." We're basically just asking for the government to turn our children into criminals. That has got to stop. The best mental health programs are preventative and that prevention doesn't come from a government agency offering "counseling" or "services." It comes from the informal networks of support that have no price tag but somehow we have traded for "programs" from the government. In essence it comes down to our culture and the assumption that it can be commodified or somehow duplicated by the government or private sector. Grandma instructing Mama on how to parent is much better than 22 year old white girl caseworker instructing a parenting class for young mothers.
    It requires that we fix the basic systems we have which are breaking up those invaluable traditions and that fixing has little to do with money in some cases and more to do with our mindset.
    Ambigouslight, while you are talking about fixing things have more to do with a change of mind than it do money, most of those who are entrenched in the criminal justice system are poor. There is a correlation between poverty and crime when the have-nots has to live amongst those that have and are shown through various images in all the different forms of media that they are poor. The poor in this country are some of the most educated poor people you will find in the world, thus the poor here understand when they are being exploited and abused. There has been a loss of hope for sometime in America, and because of that when someone makes it out of poverty the method they used to rise out of poverty is seen as a road out. Therefore you have young Black men and women turning to sports, drugs rap etc.. Because more often than not it has been proven that these methods are the only real meritocratic systems.

    It is unconscionable that a nation would spend billions of dollars to travel to the moon, or another planet while poverty is still a reality and the benefits of spending money on space endeavors are far less beneficial to our society than spending it on the men and women here. What was the benefit from past travels to the moon that has translated to a benefit for humanity? World governments are involved competition to say they were the first to do this or that. However, none are interested in saying we were the first to end poverty, first to correct past injustice and do right by our citizens. Going to the moon and to Mars means absolutely nothing to Black folk.

    -------------------------
    "We got to organize ourselves, We got to mobilize and there can't be no confusion in our collective solution, If not for ourselves, then for our kids, because we know who our enemy is!"

    DPZ "for the hood"

    More to come later!

    Your Brother Faheem
    .
    quote:
    Noah the African,
    I fall back on my assertion that social endeavers are predicated on human behaviors and interactions, which are for all intents and purposes infinite in their supply. Our imagination and ability for insight is qualitative in nature and are consequently not confined by the laws of physics Newton espoused. I understand what you have said thus far to mean--we have quantified the human experience through "the conduit of money." I disagree not in so much that we have not tried but rather that in trying we have attempted to do the impossible and thus failed. Social endeavors such as racial reconciliation which are based on qualitative things such as the human experience require as much or as little resources as we arbitrarily assign to them. In physics, with gravity for instance, regardless of the semantics I use to describe the attraction between to two objects the energy exchanged is neither arbitrary or a "decision." To bring it back to space travel versus racial reconciliation. The allocation of finite resources "required" for Racial reconciliation is an arbitrary decision whereas the resources required for space flight are not arbitrary. As such the two endeavors should not be compared or weighed against each other, for it is possible apply any price tag to one and not the other.For example one can ask why we put any resources into any scientific endeavor as long as the "social" condition of poverty exists.I think you would agree the two are possibly related but not necessarily in causal manner. Instead we canstrive to accomplish both, so long as the "social endeavor" taps into the infinite supply of humanity's potential



    Our thoughts are the process of energy, which is a physical property subject to the laws of physics. It is the electrical impulses in our body that create thought, which in turn results in behavior and activity. Thus, any physical properties are subject to Newton's laws.

    Racial reconciliation is what you are exposing that I am exposing, but I am not. What I am exposing is equality and I expose the conduit to that equality to be creating equal and opposite energies directed at lifting black people up, to offset the energies that put black people down. This will not create racial reconciliation because it will piss off whites. However, it will promote equality and ensure that every debit is offset by its corresponding debit.

    Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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    Noah The African in America
    Faheem
    I agree wholeheartedly that we do not allocate enough resources to combat poverty.

    However I disagree with you on where those resources should come from. Poor people ARE NOT poor because of the space program. With or without the space program there has always been poverty as long as we competed for resources and chose to exploit each other. As such its not so much what we do but rather how we think (or don't think).
    We are poor primarily because of how our labor, education and justice systems are each respectively structured and administered. We believe the response to poverty is the incarceration of poor people for instance. We have criminalized whole sets of behavioral responses that can hardly be described as maladaptive or disruptive to society. Money will not change the fact that we CHOOSE to incarcerate the homeless for j-walking or sleeping on park benches. We CHOOSE to let the government tell Black women they need a license from a white cosmetologist to braid hair for a living. Every poor person in jail shouldn't necessarily be there. All the resources we put into creating barriers for the survival of the impoverished are really the problem.
    For the most part we educate people for a minumum of 12 years to take low-skill service&manufactoring jobs that require training moreso than education-thus garunteeing an underclass that will always be a part of the working poor. If we're going to put that much energy into educating people we need to provide opportunities for them to use the skills provided by that education. That means the applications and resulting high skill jobs that come with scientific fields of inquiry like space travel have an intrinsic and operational value in themselves.
    I have also already stated a cost benefit analysis requires more than a listing of inventions that came as a result of space travel. I would also contend as a Black person, traveling between the stars does mean something. It also means something to the thousands of McNair Scholars and black engineers/scientists who are training and working to make this endeavor possible. The families that depend on these individuals would also disagree with your contention that space travel means nothing to our people. While the media may not report on how diversified our professional workforce is you can trust there are more black "trekies" than you realize. Black people should be at the front of the line pushing for scientific endeavors like space travel. It only means more opportunities for high level jobs instead of fighting amongst ourselves for the scraps yt decides to throw us every once and a while.
    Ambigouslight, I like your writing style and articulation. I forgot to welcome you to the board. Welcome aboard. I believe you and I will agree on more than we disagree on this issue and in the future but our disagreement here stems from understanding one another.

    I am not espousing that the space program is the cause of poverty, I am saying as Noah original thesis did that it is a waste to spend the kind of money they are allocating for the space program while poverty is still a problem. I know and understand that there are many black families that eat off the dollars and resources allocated for the space program but they are an exception to the rule. Most black people, who live in poverty, look at this money and ask how this government could allocate so much money, (tax dollars mind you and even the poor pay taxes,) to going into space while we starve and live in unheated residence. I once wrote on this board "The Black man and woman in America is a nation of people; a stolen and lost nation, but a nation none the less. The U.S. just destroyed Iraq in thirty days and has allocated close to $80 billion to rebuild Iraq. The Black man and woman in America was terrorized and destroyed for well over four hundred years. How much do you think it would take to rebuild a nation that was destroyed and bombed for four hundred years if it takes $80 billion to rebuild a nation destroyed in thirty days? This speaks to exactly what I am saying here, this government continues to spend money on programs and places while ignoring the big elephant in its living room.

    -------------------------
    "We got to organize ourselves, We got to mobilize and there can't be no confusion in our collective solution, If not for ourselves, then for our kids, because we know who our enemy is!"

    DPZ "for the hood"

    More to come later!

    Your Brother Faheem
    Noah (nice exchange)
    I think we've reached an impasse on the matter. I do not believe the human mind or its processes are entirely based on biochemical reactions. I tend to believe there's a spiritual piece that's mistakenly underrated. Elements of our intellect like memory and insight defy the confines of time itself. We are only slowed by the physical reaction of our physical bodies. If one thinks about it in that way, one can further conclude there are no limits to our imagination or mental abilities. As such I believe we are capable of creating better social systems without allocating all our physical resources to their perpetuation.
    "I'm all for sending unmanned robotic missions to mars and elsewhere in the solar system on a mission to increase human knowledge, science, and exploration."-Ricardo

    The only problem is they, that is, Europeans are only interested in advancing their understanding of human knowledge (and how it is acquired), their concept of science, and exploring other planets in order to advance and cement their superiority. Supposedly, when the first man landed on the moon, the astronaunt was careful to place an 'American Flag' on the moon's surface. Why was it important to do this? Because it obnoxiously announces to the world that Europeans (The True American) were the FIRST to travel to the moon, as if anyone else on the planet had any interest in going there in the first place. And, as if this behavior and thinking wasn't digusting enough, they then return to Earth expecting global admiration and praise.

    When we thoroughly examine the pattern of behavior of Europeans, we see that being FIRST is a dominate theme in the culture. We see it over and over again, especially when they are interpreting their understanding of history (Columbus is the "first" to discover the "New" World, which was by the way, already old before the first European landed on it). The reason for the emphasis on being first is because in terms of the human development, they were the LAST to evolve into civilization. It is a psychosis that develops out of deep-seated feelings of insecurity, spiritual bankruptcy, and cultural inadequacy.

    Therefore, I am not at all surprised that for Europeans "discovering" and "exploring" other planets would take precedence. Unfortunately, however, I don't think Mars is capable of supporting their self-destructive lifestyles, biological diseases, and incurable social habits. Let us hope (and pray for the Spirit of the Universe), that they don't ever get the opportunity to advance their objectives to the fullest extent. The outcome is surely to be more devasting than we could ever imagine.

    [This message was edited by Rowe on January 15, 2004 at 03:42 PM.]

    U.S. Eyes Space as Possible Battleground


    Sun Jan 18, 2:27 PM ET

    By Jim Wolf

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush (news - web sites)'s plan to expand the exploration of space parallels U.S. efforts to control the heavens for military, economic and strategic gain.

    Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld long has pushed for technology that could be used to attack or defend orbiting satellites as well as a costly program, heavily reliant on space-based sensors, to thwart incoming warheads.

    Under a 1996 space policy adopted by then-President Bill Clinton that remains in effect, the United States is committed to the exploration and use of outer space "by all nations for peaceful purposes for the benefit of all humanity."

    "Peaceful purposes allow defense and intelligence-related activities in pursuit of national security and other goals," according to this policy. "Consistent with treaty obligations, the United States will develop, operate and maintain space control capabilities to ensure freedom of action in space, and if directed, deny such freedom of action to adversaries."

    No country depends on space and satellites as its eyes and ears more than the United States, which accounted for as much as 95 percent of global military space spending in 1999, according to the French space agency CNES.

    "Yet the threat to the U.S. and its allies in and from space does not command the attention it merits from the departments and agencies of the U.S. government charged with national security responsibilities," a congressionally chartered task force headed by Rumsfeld reported 10 days before Bush and he took office in 2001.

    Theresa Hitchens of the private Center for Defense Information said the capabilities to conduct space warfare would move out of the realm of science fiction and into reality over the next 20 years or so.

    "At the end of the day it will be political choices by governments, not technology, that determines if the nearly 50- year taboo against arming the heavens remains in place," she concluded in a recent study.

    Outlining his election-year vision for space exploration last week, Bush called for a permanent base on the moon by 2020 as a launch pad for piloted missions to Mars and beyond.

    One unspoken motivation may have been China's milestone launch in October of its first piloted spaceflight in earth orbit and its announced plan to go to the moon.

    "I think the new initiative is driven by a desire to beat the Chinese to the moon," said John Pike, director of GlobalSecurity.org, a defense and space policy research group.

    Among companies that could cash in on Bush's space plans are Lockheed Martin Corp., Boeing Co. and Northrop Grumman Corp., which do big business with the National Aeronautics and Space Administration as well as with the Pentagon.

    The moon, scientists have said, is a source of potentially unlimited energy in the form of the helium 3 isotope -- a near perfect fuel source: potent, nonpolluting and causing virtually no radioactive byproduct in a fusion reactor.

    "And if we could get a monopoly on that, we wouldn't have to worry about the Saudis and we could basically tell everybody what the price of energy was going to be," said Pike.

    Gerald Kulcinski of the Fusion Technology Institute at the University of Wisconsin at Madison estimated the moon's helium 3 would have a cash value of perhaps $4 billion a ton in terms of its energy equivalent in oil.

    Scientists reckon there are about 1 million tons of helium 3 on the moon, enough to power the earth for thousands of years. The equivalent of a single space shuttle load or roughly 30 tons could meet all U.S. electric power needs for a year, Kulcinski said by e-mail.

    Bush's schedule for a U.S. return to the moon matches what experts say may be a dramatic militarization of space over the next two decades, even if the current ban on weapons holds.

    Among other things, the Pentagon expects to spend at least $50 billion over the next five years to develop and field a multi-layered shield against incoming missiles that could deliver nuclear, biological or chemical weapons.

    Ultimately, this shield -- first proposed by President Ronald Reagan and dubbed "Star Wars" by critics -- may include space-based interceptors, the first weapons in space, as opposed to sensors that guide weapons.

    Last year, the Pentagon's Missile Defense Agency obtained $14 million for research on basing three or more missile interceptors in space by the end of the decade for tests.

    The plan would field satellites armed with multiple "hit-to-kill" interceptors capable of destroying a ballistic missile through a high-speed collision shortly after its launch, according to Wade Boese, research director of the private Arms Control Association. Such a system could also function as an anti-satellite weapon.

    No decision has been made yet to deploy space-based interceptors as part of the U.S. missile defense program "although we are conducting research and development activities in that area," a Defense Department official said Friday.

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=5&u=/nm/20040118/ts_nm/space_weapons_dc

    Plowshares Actions
    The Nuclear Resister
    School of the Americas Watch
    miserable failure



    Cauca, Colombia

    I think the European is looking for another Planet to live on before he completely destroys this one for the next billion years. Racial equality has nothing to do with it, because the only "race" existing on this new planet will be them and them only; even though it might be only be a new Adam and Eve thing. If he's lucky, he might have a "ligitimate" mate. Even that could go wrong (which for him could be "right"). Hope he gets to take some non-radiated food with him; rocks don't make a staple diet.

    ***********
    The petty bourgeoisie are the first to sell out. When they obtain status their lives generally lose both content and significance. - Black Consciousness
    There is no initiative America CAN take to achieve equality for African Americans in American society. Be it money, politics (law),or social. The application of equality is in the hands of the "several States." The assurance of the basis for equality is in the hands of the federal government.

    The road to "equality" runs right through the heart of African America. We are the authority for our identity. We are compromised ONLY because we WILL NOT take a position in our society that empowers us. America fills that socio-political vacuum with whatever it chooses.

    American chooses color, race, and disenfranchisement.

    We lose.

    We remain our own worst enemy.

    PEACE

    Jim Chester

    You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

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