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Originally posted by Huey:
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Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
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Originally posted by Huey:
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Originally posted by Shango67:
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I'm not sure whats your motives everywhere I see you you are finding ways to align with Hispanics against Blacks. Isn't East Harlem, Spanish Harlem?

My motives???

For one, I NEVER USE THE TERM HISPANIC. Secondly, I am a Pan African that wants to see ALL Black AFRICANS empowered regardless of their place of birth, language, or religion.

And yes, I live in Spanish Harlem with folks that look like these people


Do you not consider these men Black African?


Of course, I do. The real question is do THEY consider themselves Black African?


How many Black Americans consider themselves African?
The ones who don't, are very ignorant about their own history and geography. The slaves didn't get here by Greyhound.


I know, but unfortunately a great many of our brothers and sisters don't see themselves as African at all. I've known Black friends and relatives who have vehemently denied being African when I remind them of their heritage when they talk bad about Africans. "I'm not an African, I'm an America. I was born and raised here in America." "I don't know none of them motherfuckers over there in Africa. I don't know nobody in a damn hut." Stuff like that.

African-Americans like us are the minority in my real life experiences. Most African-Americans from all that I've seen and read are almost throughly Westernized.
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Originally posted by ricardomath:
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Originally posted by Afro Saxon:
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Originally posted by Afro Saxon:
I'm not sure why this cracker is allowed on the forum. He never adds anything of value and is simply annoying.

I find you very presence here offensive and find the idea that you allowed to disrespect Blacks on a Black forum distastful in the extreeme. Ignoring you wouldn't change any of that. If you are to be here you need to stay in your place. I do not know what is wrong with MGM.


You can find me offensive all you like, just as I find you offensive. Too bad.

Unlike you, I don't go around whining and crying like a little baby asking that somebody be banned from the site when somebody disagrees with me.

But I'm sure that this is a developemental stage that you will grow out of some day as you mature.


Listen first and foremost you are from Iowa,second look at your picture you clearly on the bottom wrong of white society. There no level intellectually or socially that you've graced that I have not surpassed. You should not be here plain and simple, it isn't whining, it stating a fact. It is not about agreement or disagreement, it is about a cracker getting out of his place. When you feel you have the right to come to a Black site and get snarky with Blacks you have clearly over stepped your bounds. You do not belong here, you are not Black and have no investment in our progress or community. You are simply a troll and here to disrupt.
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Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
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Originally posted by Huey:
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Originally posted by Shango67:
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I'm not sure whats your motives everywhere I see you you are finding ways to align with Hispanics against Blacks. Isn't East Harlem, Spanish Harlem?

My motives???

For one, I NEVER USE THE TERM HISPANIC. Secondly, I am a Pan African that wants to see ALL Black AFRICANS empowered regardless of their place of birth, language, or religion.

And yes, I live in Spanish Harlem with folks that look like these people


Do you not consider these men Black African?


Of course, I do. The real question is do THEY consider themselves Black African?


How many Black Americans consider themselves African?

Most African American consider themselves Black. I never heard a Black American deny there African roots on the same level as a Hispanic. This is why your motive are questionable, you know Latino's seperate themselves from Africa/Blackness to a far greater extent than Black Americans, but you come here pretend other wise. Why? Something is suspect. I think you are like most looking to be a "different" kind of Black.
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Originally posted by Shango67:
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I'm not sure whats your motives everywhere I see you you are finding ways to align with Hispanics against Blacks. Isn't East Harlem, Spanish Harlem?

My motives???

For one, I NEVER USE THE TERM HISPANIC. Secondly, I am a Pan African that wants to see ALL Black AFRICANS empowered regardless of their place of birth, language, or religion.

And yes, I live in Spanish Harlem with folks that look like these people


Do you not consider these men Black African?


All Hispanics do not look like them, many Latino's in Spanish Harlem are likely devoid of African blood. To me moving to Spanish Harlem tells something. Harlem proper s the birthplace of American Pan Africanism yet you chose to live in Spanish Harlem a place with significant less influence in that area. Harlem was a incubator for many independent Black thinkings; Garvey, X, so on and so forth, yet you move to Spanish Harlem amoungst people who never had an interest in that. The Spanish exhibit Iberian imperialistic thought,moving there doesn't make anymore of a pan Africanist than one who is anti immigration against those who are largely not Black at all.
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Originally posted by Afro Saxon:
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Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
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Originally posted by Huey:
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Originally posted by Shango67:
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I'm not sure whats your motives everywhere I see you you are finding ways to align with Hispanics against Blacks. Isn't East Harlem, Spanish Harlem?

My motives???

For one, I NEVER USE THE TERM HISPANIC. Secondly, I am a Pan African that wants to see ALL Black AFRICANS empowered regardless of their place of birth, language, or religion.

And yes, I live in Spanish Harlem with folks that look like these people


Do you not consider these men Black African?


Of course, I do. The real question is do THEY consider themselves Black African?


How many Black Americans consider themselves African?

Most African American consider themselves Black. I never heard a Black American deny there African roots on the same level as a Hispanic.


Considering themselves Black isn't the same thing as considering themselves African. Many Black people consider ourselves Black but don't identify with Africa.

And yes, there is a denial of Black ancestry in parts of Hispanic society, especially in Brazil. But there is African denial amongst African-Americans and there is also a history of support of Black causes by Hispanic-Americans and in Latin America.


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This is why your motive are questionable, you know Latino's seperate themselves from Africa/Blackness


This is just you claiming this. You haven't shown anything to prove that there is a mass anti-Black sentiment amongst Hispanics.

Also, you're making this out to be an "Either you're pro-Black and against Hispanics or with Hispanics and against African America" issue. You're speaking as if Blacks and Hispanics are antithetical.

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to a far greater extent than Black Americans, but you come here pretend other wise.


1) Far greater extent? Light-skinned African-Americans have been the wealthy class and frontrunners of African-American movements since the 19th century. There is a huge industry for hair straightening and skin-lightening products fueled by African American consumption. Our movie industries portray light-skinned Black women as the desired protagonist and dark-skinned Black women as stereotypical interlopers and antagonists. Most of us want nothing to do with Africa. We are just as influenced by White Supremacist influences as Hispanic Mestizos.

2) Latin America has a history of colonialism perhaps even deeper than the US and Canada. Mestizo racism against Black Latinos did not appear out of thin air, a racial caste system was set up by the White Spaniards (who largely still rule Latin America) and lasts to this day.

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Why? Something is suspect.


Why are you annointing Obama as the King of Black America? Since when has does not voting for Obama = hatred of African America? What COINTELPRO mole sent you here to equate Black Liberation with the corporate and imperialist interests of the Democrats that Obama is pushing?

What's your angle?

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I think you are like most looking to be a "different" kind of Black.


And you're basing this on what? I'm a very pro-Black person (to the point where I've had members accuse me of being a "Black Separatist", which I'm not) and I also support solidarity movements with other communities of Color. I consider myself purely Black (even though I'm light-skinned) and I don't support Black figures (or any figures) who are in alignment with the White Supremacist and imperialist Wall Street/Washington Consensus. Obama, Wall Street's sweetheart, is part of that complex yet you are here acting as if he is MLK or Malcolm reincarnate by treating non-votes for him as declarations of anti-Black hatred. As if Obama (a politician loved by corporate America and the military-industrial complex) is the summation of African American Liberation and Empowerment.

What's your angle?
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Originally posted by Vito:
A recent national study found that between 15-20% of white Americans hold seriously racist attitudes towards blacks. That same survey found that with Hispanics, it was between 33-66%.


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I'll post the site where I found it soon, but the survey was about serious racist attitudes. It asked questions like, do you find so and so hard to get along with. Do you think so and so group is generally honest? And on and on.


Well, it's been several days now since you said that you were going to post this national study.

Are you going to post it or not?
*Damn. Why do I always have to come in and save the day?!?!*
----------------

Deep Divisions, Shared Destiny - A Poll of Black, Hispanic, and Asian Americans on Race Relations

New America Media, Poll, Posted: Dec 12, 2007


The nation's first multilingual poll of Black, Hispanic and Asian Americans has uncovered serious tensions among these ethnic groups, including mistrust and significant stereotyping, but a majority of each group also said they should put aside differences and work together to better their communities.

The poll, which was released today during a news conference at the National Press Club, was sponsored by New America Media (NAM) and nine ethnic media outlets who are founding members of the organization.

"This extraordinary poll reveals some unflattering realities that exist in America today," said Sandy Close, Executive Editor and Director of NAM, the nation's first and largest collaboration of ethnic news media. "The sponsors of the poll strongly believe the best way to move forward is by identifying the problems and initiating a dialogue that can bring ethnic groups closer together in their fight for equality and against discrimination."

Broadly, the poll of 1,105 African-American, Asian-American and Hispanic adults found that the predominantly immigrant populations - Hispanics and Asians - expressed far greater optimism about their lives in America, concluding that hard work is rewarded in this society. By contrast, more than 60% of the African Americans polled do not believe the American Dream works for them. Blacks also described themselves as more segregated from the rest of America than the other groups.

The poll found that friction between ethnic and racial groups, which at times has erupted into highly-publicized incidents around the country, is clearly rooted in the mistrust that the groups harbor towards each other, as well as the sentiment that other groups are mistreating them or are detrimental to their own future. For instance, 44% of Hispanics and 47% of Asians are "generally afraid of African Americans because they are responsible for most of the crime." Meanwhile, 46% of Hispanics and 52% of African Americans believe "most Asian business owners do not treat them with respect." And half of African Americans feel threatened by Latin American immigrants because "they are taking jobs, housing and political power away from the Black community."

Moreover, the three groups seem more trusting of whites than of each other. The poll found that 61% of Hispanics, 54% of Asians and 47% of African Americans would rather do business with whites than members of the other two groups.

"The poll reaffirms that while race relations between ethnic groups and whites grab the headlines, there are also serious racial problems between minority groups in America," said Sergio Bendixen, who is an expert on Hispanic and multilingual polling. "Blacks feel they are left out of the American Dream and are being displaced by newcomers, and each group buys into the negative stereotypes about the other two. What's clear is the need to dissolve this friction. The poll results show that the overwhelming majority of ethnic Americans want that positive outcome."

Specifically, the poll also found that:

A majority of Hispanics and a significant percentage of Asians believe in the concept that every American has an equal opportunity to succeed. By contrast, the majority of Black respondents – 66 percent – disagreed with that notion.
Blacks overwhelmingly believe the criminal justice system favors the rich and powerful; most Hispanics and an even larger majority of Asians disagree.
A large majority of each group believes that they should put aside their differences and work together on issues affecting their communities; they also say the country would be better if more from all three groups were inpositions of authority at universities, businesses, media and government.
All three groups are optimistic about the future. Strong majorities of each group believe that racial tensions will ease over the next 10 years.
Further, Ms. Close said the poll found "a shared appreciation" for each group's cultural and political contributions. "Hispanics and Asians recognize that African Americans led the fight for civil rights and against discrimination, forging a better future for the other groups," she said. "Asian Americans and African Americans say Hispanic culture has enriched the quality of their lives. African Americans and Hispanics perceive Asian Americans as role models when it comes to family and educational values."

Poll respondents sent mixed messages to the ethnic media, which many depend on for news about their community. While criticizing the ethnic media's coverage of race relations, particularly other groups outside their own community, all three groups maintained that the ethnic media must play a vital role by strengthening inter-group communication and helping to break negative stereotypes.

The ethnic media is embracing their challenge to do better. "The poll is part of our campaign to address mutual misunderstandings, of which there are many," said Sok Jeong, editor of the Korea Times. "The poll is a call to action for ethnic media to expand coverage of our mutual communities and help our readers gain a better understanding of the other ethnic groups."



Read entire article.
MASKING HISPANIC RACISM: A CUBAN CASE STUDY

Dr. Miguel A. De La Torre

I am a recovering racist, a product of two race-constructed societies.[1] Exilic Cubans see themselves as white and the Island's inhabitants as mostly black. A major issue which will arise in a post-Castro Cuba is intra-Cuban race relations, an issue mostly ignored because of the myth proclaiming Cubans as non-racists. I propose to debunk this myth. Any serious discourse on intra-Cuban reconciliation must unmask the hidden tension existing between seemingly white Exilic Cuba and black Resident Cuba.

Gender, race and class oppressions do not exist in isolated compartments, nor are they separate categories of repression. They are created in the space where they interact and conflict with each other, a space I will call machismo. The understanding of machismo requires a full consideration of sexism, heterosexism, racism, ethnocentrism and classism. All forms of oppression are identical in their attempt to domesticate the Other. The sexist, who sees women playing a lesser productive role than men, transfers upon the non-elite male Other effeminate characteristics, placing him in a feminine space for "easy mounting." Their subjugation (not just in body) establishes the selfhood of the macho.

Race is not a biological factor differentiating humans, rather, it is a social construction whose function is the oppression of the Object-Other for the benefit of the Subject. Racism against the Cuban's Others, Amerindians, Africans, Chinese and any combination thereof, is normalized by the social structures of both Resident and Exilic Cubans. Because domination of a group of people by another is usually conducted by the males of the dominant culture, it becomes crucial to understand the construction of this domination as seen through the eyes of the oppressor. Our patriarchal structure projects unto my "darker" Other the position occupied by women regardless of the Other's gender. For this reason, it is valid to explore Cuban racism as a form of machismo. Although an examination of racism toward the Taíno and Asian aspects of our culture would prove profitable, this article will solely concentrate on African oppression.

Cuba's African population was constructed as non-machos and designated to serve those with power and privilege. By 1524, as Diego Columbus' term as viceroy came to an end, there were more African slaves in the Caribbean than Taínos. The end of Amerindian enslavement in Cuba ushered in African slavery. By examining the differences between Cuban and North American slavery, I propose to debunk the construction of Cuban racism and show how it is a manifestation of machismo. But before demonstrating how the engendering of black Cuban bodies constitutes machismo, I will first briefly review history from the underside of the African experience. Then I will investigate how Cuban blacks are constructed. And finally I will unmask the historical hoax of denying the existence of Cuban racism. By exploring what was and is done to black and/or bi-racial Cubans, we expose one aspect of the underling tension preventing reconciliation between today's Resident and Exilic Cubans.

Initially, few African slaves inhabited the Island, due to Cuba's lack of precious metals and a stagnant economy.[2] But by the 1640's, a socio-political change took place as semi-feudal settlements in Cuba gave way to plantation agriculture. It was upon sugar that Cuba was constructed. It was because of sugar, that liberation was denied. The expansion of sugar production propelled the rapid growth of the slave labor in the colony and the rise of capitalism in Spain. Hence, slavery occurred in the peripheral economy due to the development of capitalism in the European center. By the 1830's, Cuba, the "jewel of the Spanish Crown," had become the largest single producer of cane sugar in the world.

Slave labor and its accompanying white racism in Cuba created profit for the elite. After the Haitian revolution, planters turned Cuba into the world's sugar bowl. These actions turned planters into princes with titles of nobility. Prior to the 1790's, the English grew rich through the slave trade. But England's abolition of the slave trade led to the creation of direct La Habana-Africa-La Habana routes, allowing the merchants of La Habana to accumulate wealth by filling the void as slave traders. Since Cuba's economy was dependent on slaves, this insured the loyalty of sugar oligarchies to the Crown during the early wars of national independence, least they jeopardize their privileged positions.[3] These wars failed due to the revolutionaries' inability to overcome the privileged oligarchies who remained militarily, psychologically and economically dependent on Spain.

Legal slavery ended in the Caribbean when Cuba abolished slavery in 1886; however, abolition did not mean an end to racism or exploitation. Under "freedom" former slaves were hired only during peak seasons, and left to themselves during el tiempo muerto (the dead time - off peak seasons lasting from June through November). Slavery, the source of labor for sugar-producers, was replaced with the rural proletarization of black Cubans. For Montejo, a former slave, life remained the same. He was still confined to the plantation, lived like an animal in the barracón and submitted to the white master. Thus, he wrote, "Some plantations were still the way they were under slavery; the owners still thought they owned the blacks."[4]

Throughout Cuban history, whenever the indigenous black population threatened to exceed the white population, a process known as blanqueamiento (whiting) occurred whereby land was freely given to white Spaniard families who would leave Spain and come to live on the Island. Characteristic of Spanish colonial policy was the constant and steady emigration of poor whites from Spain. Martí stands out among late-nineteenth-century thinkers who rejected blanqueamiento.

Martí went further than any of his white contemporaries in affirming the equality of the races.[5] He became a non-black voice who identified with the oppressed blacks. He attempted to die to his "whiteness" in order to create Cuba Libre, free from racist social structures, and his response to slavery was forceful.[6] In an era where most whites believed in the inferiority of blacks, Martí continuously stated that racism was a "sin against humanity." In the articles Basta (Enough) and Mi raza (My Race) he proposes that there is no such thing as race.

Although Martí cannot be considered a postmodern thinker, he does view race as a social construction which allows one group to oppress another. Calling race categories "razas de librería" (bookstore races), he refused to make a connection between inferiority and slavery, for as he points out, "blue-eyed, blond-haired Gauls were sold as slaves in the Roman marketplace." Similar to Gates, Martí insisted that race classifications are entirely artificial constructions. To be Cuban meant "más que blanco, más que mulato, más que negro" (more than being white, more than being a mulatto, more than being black).

Later generations of Cuban whites would take this definition to claim that no racism existed, for if there is no race then there can be no racism. But undermining his own work, Martí's views included forms of evolutionism. In his notes for a projected book, La raza negra, he insisted blacks must rise to the levels of whites through both education and intermarriage. He spoke of a "savage element" in blacks that prevented them from fully participating in civilized culture. With time, Martí thought, blacks would embrace Western culture and reject their African heritage.[7] Unfortunately, these comments were cited by Cuban sociologist Fernando Ortiz in order to continue the very racism Martí fought so hard to eliminate.

Ortiz capitalized on the black's "savage element" in his observation of the polarization of Cuban society. In his work, Contrapunteo cubano del tabaco y el azúcar (Cuban Couterpoint: Tobacco and Sugar), he expresses the normative gaze of white Cuba. For Cuba's white supremacy, the existing polarity can be termed as "the Cuban counterpoint," where:

Tobacco and sugar contradict each other in economics and in the social. Even rigid moralists have taken them under consideration in the course of their history, viewing one with mistrust and the other with favor.[8]


According to Ortiz, sugar was introduced to the Americas by Christopher Columbus during his second voyage; likewise Columbus introduced tobacco to Europe. In reality, it was not until 1523 when La Casa de la Contratación of Seville provided the financial backing needed to transplant the sugar industry from its base in the Canary Islands to Cuba. Half of the Cuban Island, like sugar, is sweet, refined, odorless and white. The other half, like tobacco, is raw, pungent, bitter, aromatic and dark. Tobacco requires constant care, sugar can look after itself. Tobacco poisons, sugar nourishes. Within the spiraling smoke of a good Cuban cigar exists something revolutionary. The tobacco's consuming anarchical flames protest oppression. Sugar, on the other hand, contains neither rebellion nor resentment. It is calm, quiet, beyond suspicion. Sugar is the work of the gods, a scientific gift of civilization. Tobacco is of the devil, a magic gift of the savage world.[9]

Tobacco does not change color, it is born black and dies with the color of its race. Sugar changes color, it is born brown and whitens itself; it is syrupy mulatta that being blackish is abandoned to popular taste; later it is bleached and refined so that it can pass for white, travel the whole world, reach all mouths, and bring a better price, climbing to dominating categories of the social ladder.[10]


Those who write Cuban history reconstruct it so as to blame Africans for their numerous massacres. These massacres over real and alleged revolts and conspiracies occurred in 1792, 1793, 1795, 1814, 1844 and 1912.[11] After the war for independence an attempt was made by the Cuban-African community to reclaim their machismo. By 1910, black mambises (Cubans who fought for independence) were mobilizing to petition the government for their rightful share.[12] Fighting for Cuba Libre, les dio ala a los negros (made blacks uppity). The creation of El Partido Independiente de Color (The Independent Party of Color) served as the political vehicle to force the government to seriously consider its rhetoric of racial equality and provide equal opportunities in power, employment and services.[13] Instead, el partido was outlawed. Blacks were indiscriminately rounded up, jailed or killed. For a black person to question the white government was sufficient grounds for death. Even if the person was fortunate enough to escape brutal treatment, the knowledge that violence could arbitrarily occur again pervaded the relationship between blacks and whites.

Blacks openly protested in 1912, immediately leading the white elites to label the protest as a "race war," between "white civilization" and "black barbarism." The 1912 "race war" is generally ignored in the official re-membering called Cuban history. Yet thousands of black Cubans, mostly unarmed, were deliberately butchered by white Cubans, mostly for "resisting arrest" (a Latin American euphemism for the assassination of captured prisoners). This was not a race war. It was a race massacre. No trace of the rumored uprising could be found, no cache of arms was ever discovered, no demonstration occurred outside of Oriente, no white woman was ever raped or cannibalized (contrary to newspaper accounts), and no destruction of valuable property occurred. Yet, thousands of white Cuban volunteers were given arms and paid by the government to rove across the nation putting down the revolt in any way possible.[14] Suárez, a witness to the massacre wrote:

All the bitterness, all the hatred, all the ancestral prejudice of the white race against the black, were let loose. While the machine guns of the government troops were mowing down thousands of colored men, not alone those in arms, but the peaceful inhabitants of towns and villages . . . the larger cities and even in the Capital of the Republic: white men armed to the teeth went about ordering any and every black man to withdraw from the streets and public places on pain of death, and the mere color of his skin was sufficient reason to send a man to prison on the charge of rebellion.[15]

The "success" of the massacre resulted in settling the black question for the remainder of this century. The massacre of Afro-Cubans who challenged those with power and privilege annihilated future social protest by terrifying the surviving blacks into conformity. The Cuban world view became once again white because the black voice was effectively silenced.

Viewing history from the underside reveals racism as an inherent part of Cuban history, existing prior to and after the 1959 revolution. In a curious way, the Cuban construction of "black" bodies differs significantly from its construction in the United States. For example, Cubans "see" Adam Clayton Powell Jr. as white, Jesse Jackson as mulatto and Sidney Poitier as black. In the United States, a two-tier construction of race exists, "white" or "black." The "one-drop rule" constructs all non-whites as black.[16] Most countries of Latin America have a three-tiered or multi-tiered construction of race. It consists of white, mestizo (blended) and black. Cuba, unlike other Hispanic countries, perpetuated the mid-nineteenth century Spaniard notion of clase de color (class of color). Like the United States we construct a two-tiered racial system, white and black. But Chinese (and Amerindians) are categorized as white while negros (blacks) include pardos (mulatos) and morenos (blacks).[17] Unlike North America, we decide who is negro by the "visible" genotype, not by the "one-drop rule." Visible African ancestry includes, but is not limited to skin color, facial features (nose and lip size) and hair texture (possessing pelo malo, "bad hair"). When possible, such features were best kept hidden. For example, blacks were routinely arrested by the Ministry of the Interior of the Castro regime if they appeared in public with their hair styled naturally. These arrests ended after 1972 when Angela Davis, with her hair in an "Afro," visited the Island as Castro's guest.

The de-Africanization of Cuban culture drew support from negros finos (refined blacks) and blacks who passed for whites. Negros finos represented upwardly mobile blacks who, seeing themselves as whites, attempted to escape segregation within Cuba's power structures by cultural assimilation. Light-skinned black Cubans with few African features could legally pass for white by breaking kinship ties, marrying strategically, learning socially acceptable behavior and legitimizing their desired status by judicious bribes intended to correct "official" documents. Money in Cuba has always been able to "whiten" people, at least up to a point. For example, Cuba's military dictator in the 1950's, Fulgencio Batista y Zaldívar (nicknamed el mulato lindo, the darling mulatto boy) claimed to be white, even though he was of Afro-Chinese descent. He was the second most powerful man on the Island (after the United States Ambassador) but was rejected by Cuba's white upper-class who (black)balled his application to Cuba's most elite social club, the Havana Yacht Club.

Cuban racism is rooted in the belief that we are not racist, even though the primary criterion of social classification is color. Our first response to the accusation of racism is its denial. We may quote the Venezuelan proverb "Aquí todos somos café con leche; unos más café, otros más leche (Here we are coffee and milk; some more coffee, other more milk)." Yet leche has access to employment, state services, power, wealth and privilege, while café is disenfranchised. Leche is rich, civilized, intelligent and modern, while café is poor, savage, ignorant and primitive. The lighter the café, the closer to becoming a macho.[18] Such popular slogans, constructed to describe the Americas' multi-culturalism, mask an indigenous racism.

While white Cubans "re-cognized" the presence of nonwhites, people of color had to shape their behavior according to white expectations, unable to assert their own culture.[19] Café con leche's hidden agenda is to whiten the Africans. As Fanon points out, "Not only must the black man be black; he must be black in relation to the white man."[20] According to Sathler and Nascimento:

Whether it be mestizaje, cosmic race, harmony of races, or racial miscegenation, there is always the assumption that a pure type will be the organic result of such a mixture. The result of such a mixture is an acceptable "whiter" ethnic group that, by definition, excludes Natives and Africans.[21]


José Vasconcelos, the Mexican philosopher and statesman is credited with constructing the utopian concept of The Cosmic Race as a way of combating the prevalent positivism of his time which advocated the destruction of Mexican culture because of the belief in the evolutionary superiority of Anglos. While we Hispanic Theologians celebrate the defense of Latin American culture over against Eurocentrism, we need to recognize that philosophers like Vasconcelos still upheld positivism's hierarchical view on race.

Cuba's prized myth of racial equality contains two components. First, it credits the masters for the abolition of slavery.[22] Thus, slave owners are somehow redeemed from the sin of slavery and the slaves rendered dependent upon their masters' generosity. The second component of thought asserts that racial equality was achieved in the military forces while fighting against Spain. Martí hoped the shared struggle of the liberating army would eliminate racial discrimination and serve as a catalyst for the entire Cuban society. White Cubans maintain, quite forcefully, that Martí's hope became a reality.[23]

This myth of racial equality was validated through the appointment of a few blacks to positions of prestige.[24] Maceo, Cuba's greatest general, became "proof" that racism had ceased to exist in Cuba. White Cubans excused themselves from restitution for slave exploitation, branded any organization protesting racial discrimination as itself a racist group, vilified black consciousness as a threat to national unity and portrayed Cuban whites as superior to Anglos, living the abomination of Jim Crow.[25]

Our Cuban racism is somehow humanized by comparing it with the racism of the United States. Thus, when white Cubans came to Jim Crow's Miami in 1959, we found a racially segregated system. We reminded Anglos that since 1887 no one could be excluded in Cuba from public service for racial reasons. By 1889 in Cuba discrimination in theaters was disallowed and blacks could not be barred from cafés and bars. In that same year black children were accepted in state schools on the same basis as whites. Unlike Miami, blacks did not need to sit in the back of the bus or drink from different water fountains. This superficial comparison to Cuba's racial ethos concluded by assuming that racism existed in the United States but not Cuba.[26]

We also maintained Iberian slavery was somehow more benevolent. Our blindness to our own racism caused Cuban racial reforms to be conducted through paternalistic prisms. Blacks became "the children" of the country, needing guidance. This erasure of race is true for the present Exilic Cuban community where blacks simply "do not exist" in the eyes of the emerging middle class, as well as in the Resident Cuban community where census information on race has been "lost" lest they show their lack of representation in the upper levels of the Cuban political hierarchy.[27]

During the early 1920's, Bernardo Ruiz Suárez, a black Cuban, traveled to the United States to investigate the myth that Cuban racism was more benign than North America's. He agreed that North American racism was more salient. In the United States, the power structures openly incorporated inequality, while Cuba hid its inequalities behind the illusion of a color-blind society. Yet Suárez believed that the North American black church would eventually provide spiritual resistance to Jim Crow's cruelty, spurring the African-American community into action, a prediction which came true forty years later in the Civil Rights Revolution. Black Cuba did not have its own Christian churches to serve as sacred spaces from whence to assert a distinct identity and a legitimizing ethos. Suárez believed therefore, that Cuban blacks did not have the political possibilities available to African-Americans in the United States.[28] If white Cubans admit to the existence of racism, we pass it off as a product of the United States' influence. No doubt as Cuba became politically and economically dependant on the United States, racial tension was aggravated. However, we hide our racist complicity by blaming North America. Esteban Montejo, born a slave in Cuba and witness to the United States' invasion, is a voice from the underside of Cuban history. He agrees the racist influence of the United States upon Cuba was real. While constructing the Cuban Republic, Montejo observed:

The Americans came out with this theory that if you give Negro power and educate him, he'll turn round and harm the whites. So they segregated the Negroes completely.[29]

Yet, he refuses to place total blame upon the North Americans. He continues:

The rest of the Cubans kept quiet and did nothing . . . Later everyone said that the Americans were the real villains. I agree, they were the biggest ones, but remember that the white Creoles were just as guilty, because they let themselves be buggered about on their own soil, all of them, from colonels down to cleaners.[30]

In reality, the United States' occupation became an excuse for Cuba's whites to strengthen their own, long inherited racist structures. Blacks were told to be silent and show unity so that the North Americans would quickly depart. Yet after their departure, nothing was done to address the conditions of black Cubans. Lourdes Casal, a black Cuban professor of psychology and a poet wrote:

It is the opinion of this writer that Cuban home-grown racism, with the "improvements" added to it by the strong U.S. penetration during Republican times, was more virulent and insidious than most writers on the issues have been willing to admit. The normative system of values at the core of the definition of nationhood was egalitarian, and integrationist but the practices were blatantly racist.[31]


We refuse to lay claim to our own, most racial proverb, "Juntos pero no revueltos; cada cosa en su lugar. (Together but not scrambled, everything in its place)." Blaming the United States does not absolve Exilic Cuban racism. So also, Resident Cubans are not absolved by constructing racism as a residual effect of the former bourgeoisies.

Castro always answers questions concerning race in a typical Cuban fashion, by comparing it to the United States, and suggesting the latter is worse than the former.[32] But Carlos Franqui, a personal friend of Fidel Castro who served as the former propaganda chief of the Movimiento 26 de Julio, says of Castro's racial myopia:

In all conscience, based on the knowledge I have of Fidel on a personal basis, I must say that Fidel Castro is not a discriminator in a segregationist sense. He is not the type of person who would discriminate against a black man just because his skin is black. By the same token, I do not believe Fidel to be a machista in the sense that he would discriminate against a woman because she is female, or against a Chinese because he is Chinese. That is not where Fidel's problem lies. Fidel's limitation - great limitation! - is in incapacity to understand what it has meant and continues to mean to be black in Cuba. He is equally incapable of understanding what it means to be a worker, to be a peasant, or to be a woman! And this has to do with a profound problem of bourgeois and petit-bourgeois revolutionaries who entertain a deeply paternalistic outlook on revolution. It is the problem of those who, having neither emerged from nor lived among the people, come into positions of leadership and nonetheless believe themselves capable of really identifying with the ordinary man.[33]

This Castro "limitation" is not limited to Castro. The whole Cuban community, both Resident and Exilic, suffers a similar "limitation." We white Cuban people suffer from what Moore calls "a paternalistic superiority complex."[34]

Undergirding the construction of race is the perception that blacks are non-machos.[35] Quoting various anthropologists of his time (i.e., Klemm), Ortiz classifies humans into two groups: active or masculine, and passive or feminine. Using morphology, he decided that African skulls reveal feminine characteristics.[36] Machismo manifested as racism can be observed in the comments of the nineteenth century Cuban theologian José Augustín Caballero, who wrote, "In the absence of black females with whom to marry, all blacks [become] masturbators, sinners and sodomites" (italics mine).[37] Until emancipation, the plantation ratio of males to females was 2:1, with some plantations imbalances reaching 4:1.[38] Usually, black women lived in the cities and towns. Hence, slave quarters, known as barracónes, consisted solely of men, creating the reputation of their non-macho roles as voiced by Caballero.

Blacks, it was claimed, could be strong as mules, but they could not be men for they lacked the means of proving their manhood. The reality of Cuba's plantations made it impossible for black men to carry out their "masculine" responsibility of providing for or protecting their family. Yet, for the black man to willingly place himself in the female position was also unacceptable. In 1902, during a wave of arrests of black Cubans on suspicion of practicing African-based religions, several from the Abakuá society were executed for alleged homosexual activities.[39] Skewed sex ratios made black males the targets of the white master who as bugarrones could rape them. The wives and children of the male slave were also understood to be the master's playthings.[40]

Paradoxically, while the African man is constructed as a non-macho, he is feared for the potential of asserting his machismo, particularly with white Cuban women. White women who succumb to the black man, it was thought, are not responsible for their actions because they were bewitched through African black magic.[41] Thus, attraction becomes witchcraft and rape. Likewise, the seductive negra (Negress) is held responsible for compromising the virtues of the white men.[42] A popular Cuban saying was "there is no sweet tamarind fruit, nor a virgin mulatto girl." Fanon captures the white Caribbean's sentiments when he wrote:

As for the Negroes, they have tremendous sexual powers. What do you expect, with all the freedom they have in their jungles! They copulate at all times and in all places. They are really genital. They have so many children that they cannot even count them. Be careful, or they will flood us with little mulattoes . . . One is no longer aware of the Negro but only of a penis; the Negro is eclipsed. He is turned into a penis. He is a penis. (italics mine)[43]

The African-Cuban may be a walking penis, but a penis that lacks potency. White Cubans project their own fears and forbidden desires upon the African-Cuban through a fixation with the black penis which threatens white civilization. The black penis is kept separate from power and privilege that come only to Cubans constructed as white. Casal documents this white Cuban fixation with the black penis in recounting oral history of blacks being hung on lamp posts by their genitals in the central plazas throughout Cuba during the 1912 massacre of blacks.[44] The massacre was fueled by news reports of so-called black revolt leading to the rape of white women. This peculiar way of decorating the lamp posts perfectly express the sexual mythology created by Cuban white racism.

Today, Cuban blacks are concerned that national reconciliation Miami-style may reimpose silence. They fear any attempt by Exilic Cubans to radically change the present government in La Habana lest it creates a one way empowerment of white Cubans once again.[45] Our hope for intra-Cuban reconciliation must confront Cuban white supremacy. If not, national "reconciliation" would only be among white Cubans on both sides of the Florida Straits, excluding black Cubans. In contrast, Latino Theology must use a macro-structural analysis and call for the dismantling of systemic white racism and elitism constructed to oppress the descendants of Africans.



Entire article.
-Originally quoted/posted by Romulus-

Poll respondents sent mixed messages to the ethnic media, which many depend on for news about their community. While criticizing the ethnic media's coverage of race relations, particularly other groups outside their own community, all three groups maintained that the ethnic media must play a vital role by strengthening inter-group communication and helping to break negative stereotypes.

The ethnic media is embracing their challenge to do better. "The poll is part of our campaign to address mutual misunderstandings, of which there are many," said Sok Jeong, editor of the Korea Times. "The poll is a call to action for ethnic media to expand coverage of our mutual communities and help our readers gain a better understanding of the other ethnic groups."


~Great article appl~
RACISM REARS IT'S UGLY HEAD IN MEXICO.



The Mexican government released a series of five stamps in June that depict Memin Penguin, an exaggerated black character from a comic book series started in the 1940s that is still published in Mexico. Associated Press file photo by Dario Lopez-Mills

--------------------------------------


Mexico's President Vicente Fox is having a tough year.

During the much-publicized Minuteman Project in Arizona last March, Fox's arrogant comments and dismissive attitude didn't win him too many fans north of the border. Then in May, while making yet another speech about how America couldn't function without illegal immigrants from Mexico, Fox managed to insult African Americans in the process. He claimed that illegals do the work that "not even black people want to do," implying that African Americans make up the lowest rungs of society.

About a month later came the unveiling of Mexico's latest series of postage stamps, featuring none other than a black character like something out of a minstrel show. Needless to say, Fox found himself on the defensive yet again -- with good reason.

It turns out that racism in Mexico, both against blacks and dark-skinned indigenous Indians, has a long history. Mexico's colonial past has left its mark on modern-day society. Prejudice toward "pureblood" Indians from those who are "mixed-blood" (Spanish and Indian) is rife. Almost uniformly, people who are darker-skinned and of Indian descent make up the peasantry and working classes, while lighter-skinned, Spanish-descent Mexicans are in the ruling elite. Fox himself comes from that background, as his appearance makes evident.

This inequality may explain in part why the majority of immigrants coming into the United States fall into the darker-skinned category. Beyond the failure of the Mexican government to sustain a decent economy, darker-skinned Mexicans have a difficult time getting work because of job discrimination. According to the Web site IndigenousPeople.net, "sixty percent of Indians over 12 years of age are already unemployed, and of those who work, most earn less than the minimum wage of about $2.50 a day." The same story notes that Mexico City's top restaurants don't allow patrons to bring along Indian domestic workers for fear of tarnishing their business image.

'Color Continuum'

Mexico's racial dynamics are perhaps best summed up by Steve Sailer in his article, "Where Did Mexico's Blacks Go?" He writes that "[w]hat Mexico does have instead of a color line is a 'color continuum.' There are no sharp racial divides, yet the rule for social prestige remains 'the whiter the better.'"

With this in mind, the popularity of the "Memin Pinguin" postage stamp series in Mexico starts to make sense. In fact, the flat-nosed, thick-lipped, bug-eyed, shucking and jiving Memin Pinguin is one of Mexico's most beloved comic strip characters. He's a children's character from a 1945 comic book that's still published in Mexico today. The cartoonist, Sixto Valencia Burgos, describes Memin as "this funny little kid. And nice. And generous. Oh, and black, too."

Fox's spokesman Rubén Aguilar vehemently denied that the character was racist, even going so far as to make the absurd claim that the series served to "combat racism and promote family values." Foreign Relations Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez chimed in with his own defense of the Mexican comic strip and had the gall to accuse critics of showing a "a total lack of respect for our culture."

But Americans were unmoved. The White House issued a statement saying that the stamps had "no place in today's world," and the ubiquitous Jesse Jackson demanded that the stamps be withdrawn from the market. He also vowed to lead a demonstration at Mexican consulates unless Fox apologized. Leaders of the NAACP, the National Council of La Raza and the National Urban League also spoke out against the stereotypical stamps.

Similar to U.S. Caricatures

Far from it being a "cultural misunderstanding," as members of the Mexican government term it, Americans know all too well what Memin Pinguin represents, as such caricatures originated in their own backyard. According to David Pilgrim, curator of the Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia at Ferris State University in Big Rapids, Mich., the character is "consistent with what we in the United States would refer to as a pickaninny image."

But such stereotypes have long been banished to the realm of collectibles in this country, and rightfully so. Long before the overreach of political correctness, people worked to rid the nation of some truly ugly elements. This was a product of political struggle on the part of African Americans and others who fought for an integrated society. So naturally most Americans recoiled in disgust when the offending stamp was revealed.

But in Mexico the stamps have been selling out, with lines out the door of local post offices. In fact, the Mexican postal service defended the series vigorously, calling Memin Pinguin a "nice, little motor-mouth who, thanks to his good humor and particular way of seeing the world, wins the hearts" of the other characters. Isn't that special?

Mexicans themselves seem perplexed by all the hoopla. In a society where such terms of endearment as guero (blond) for Caucasians or fair-skinned Mexicans and negro (black), negrito (blackie) or moreno (brown) for darker-skinned Mexicans are standard, the Memin Pinguin stamps are simply par for the course.

So is it reasonable to suggest that the struggles that have been waged by African Americans have not filtered down south of the border? Both countries have a legacy of slavery, but different pathways led to the divergent populations that exist today.

Slave Trade in Mexico

Although the study of slavery tends to focus exclusively on the United States, it was widely practiced in the ancient world and later by various people around the world, including of course Europe. It was the Spanish slave trade that first brought Africans to Mexico, as early as 1520. Although slaves were initially treated more like personal servants and Christianized before their arrival, the Spanish crown soon expanded the practice into a full-blown slave trade. The population of blacks grew to outnumber the Spanish and eventually reached 200,000. With Mexico's independence in 1829, slavery was finally abolished after almost 300 years.

But slavery had taken its toll on the remnants of African culture, and intermarriage with indigenous people, and to a lesser extent with the Spanish, created a population of mixed-bloods, or mulattos. The descendants of these people continued to intermarry, which may be why the contemporary Afro-Mexican population is relatively small.

The two areas where the most blacks in Mexico live are the Costa Chica and the state of Veracruz. Like the indigenous people in the area, Afro-Mexicans are mostly campesinos or peasant farmers. Because the Mexican government does not use "race" in its census data, it's difficult to gauge population, but Afro-Mexicans appear to be short of both political and economic power. Compared to the legion of African American faces among the rich and famous, Afro-Mexicans are relatively invisible in popular culture, except of course for derogatory figures such as Memin Pinguin.

Despite the backdrop of slavery, many Mexicans are in denial about this aspect of their history. Colin A. Palmer, in an article titled "A Legacy of Slavery," recounts one such conversation in which a Mexican student insisted that Africans came to Mexico only as fugitive slaves from North America or Cuba. Yet at one time, Palmer notes, Mexico "probably had more African slaves than any other colony in the Western Hemisphere." And unlike the United States, where people have openly confronted their past, Mexico has yet to come to terms with its history. Maybe this is why gross misrepresentations of blacks such as Memin Pinguin are considered harmless. If racism never existed in Mexico, then how could this caricature be racist?

Factional Attitudes

Then there's the factional attitude of various Latin Americans toward each other -- often partly based on the color continuum. These prejudices have traveled along with their purveyors to the United States and are well known by those who rub shoulders with Latino workers. My stepfather and his brother work in construction, and over the years they have noticed the hostility between Mexicans and the mostly darker-skinned Hondurans. They often refuse to work together and must be segregated by job. Although hardly politically correct, this bigotry is overlooked because it's perpetrated by one brown person against another. The truth is, racism transcends any one group, and when one looks beyond the white-vs.-black paradigm, discrimination is between degrees of brown.

Americans schooled in the ways of racial sensitivity can be shocked to travel abroad and witness the real world. My mother and I were in Hong Kong during the late 1980s and ran across something astounding: a toothpaste called "Darkie" (since changed to "Darlie.") On the front of the tube was a drawing of an Uncle Tom-like character from the Old South. We were so flabbergasted at the offensive find that we had to buy a tube to bring back and show our friends. But it was left in our hotel room, destined to be only a crazy story.

Unfortunately, Memin Pinguin is no crazy story and the proof is staring us all in the face. It's just too bad that it doesn't seem to bother our Mexican neighbors.

Entire article.
Asian Racism: Cold Truths Are Beginning to Surface

Entire article.The human race, according to a Chinese legend, was created by a divine potter who left his clay figure of a man too long in the kiln. When it came out burned and black, he threw it away as far as he could - and it landed in Africa. The second one he pulled out too soon: It was too white. So he threw that one away, more gently, and it landed in Europe. Now he knew the correct timing. The third man was a gorgeous yellow, and from him the East Asian races descended.

Such fanciful tales are found in many cultures. They assert the primitive, if understandable, proposition that one's own skin color is best. Until recently, many white Westerners have presumed that they are more guilty of such racial prejudices than are the other races of Asia and Africa.

Research is only now showing what Westerners living in the Third World had guessed: that the formation of racial perceptions, stereotypes and prejudices is common to all civilizations.

An important breakthrough was the publication this spring of a book about Chinese race perceptions by a Dutch anthropologist, Frank Dikotter. In "The Discourse of Race in Modern China," he shatters conventional notions about China's being relatively free of racism.

Like India and Japan, China may be charged with "internal colonialism," but it has not attacked other countries or subjugated other races in modern times - not in the wholesale manner European nations have used. This fact may have protected China from accusations of racism. Yet hundreds of young Africans studying in the People's Republic of China have reported ingrained racism.

Only 90 years ago, the reformist luminary Kang Youwei advocated "Improver of the Race" medals for whites or yellows volunteering to marry blacks in order to purify mankind. Such attitudes developed before the first Chinese-Western encounter. Europe did not introduce anti-black racism into China.

Mr. Dikotter tells how ugly the Chinese found the "ash white" skin and indelicate hairiness of Europeans. Their large genitals were also noted with disapprobation, and perhaps with envy. As for blacks, they were described in earlier centuries as even uglier - as animals, devil-like and horrifying. "Yellow and white are wise," a Chinese poem ran, "Red and black are stupid . . . "

In Japan, a black, Harvard-educated anthropologist, John Russell, is publishing research showing that Japanese prejudice against Africans and American blacks is similar to what these groups experience in the West.

The famous advertisements in Indian newspapers for fair-skinned spouses show that the higher value placed on light skin is widespread. This does not excuse racism. It does suggest that we should define it more tightly while seeking to defeat it from a wider base.

Of course, not everyone acts on these perceptions in the same way. Mr. Dikotter is careful to note that racial prejudice in China has never led to anything like the Nazis' genocidal killings in Europe or the apartheid system of South Africa.

But in telling themselves not to act inhumanly toward other races, Westerners have assumed that the very perception of another race as physically different is to be shunned. In fact, none of us can avoid such perceptions, and the sooner we admit them and talk about them the better.

Mr. Dikotter and Mr. Russell are beginning to melt the ice that had kept this natural aspect of human relationships refrigerated for so long.

Mr. Wilson is a London-based writer on Asian affairs. He contributed this comment to the International Herald Tribune.
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
~ Eek Dayum! It's a good thing to take all of it into consideration. The more you know, the less chance of "surprise" and the better the ability to specifically address. But, DAYUM! Eek~


That's why people shouldn't allow themselves to be coerced into believing everything people like oshun, ricardo, rowe, and any of these other fascist, elitist, separatist, anti-christian, anti-American asses say--pushing propagandized dogma like they're getting paid time and a half.

They don't believe in being open-minded and unbiased on their own until someone forces them to. They tell half truths and expect everyone to blindly follow suit. Them days iz over....
quote:
Originally posted by Romulus Burnett:
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
~ Eek Dayum! It's a good thing to take all of it into consideration. The more you know, the less chance of "surprise" and the better the ability to specifically address. But, DAYUM! Eek~


That's why people shouldn't allow themselves to be coerced into believing everything people like oshun, ricardo, rowe, and any of these other fascist, elitist, separatist, anti-christian, anti-American asses say--pushing propagandized dogma like they're getting paid time and a half.

They don't believe in being open-minded and unbiased on their own until someone forces them to. They tell half truths and expect everyone to blindly follow suit. Them days iz over....


~Which is why I can respect that and you and your political opinions on that basis.~
quote:
Originally posted by Romulus Burnett:
MASKING HISPANIC RACISM: A CUBAN CASE STUDY

Dr. Miguel A. De La Torre

I am a recovering racist, a product of two race-constructed societies.[1] Exilic Cubans see themselves as white and the Island's inhabitants as mostly black. A major issue which will arise in a post-Castro Cuba is intra-Cuban race relations, an issue mostly ignored because of the myth proclaiming Cubans as non-racists. I propose to debunk this myth. Any serious discourse on intra-Cuban reconciliation must unmask the hidden tension existing between seemingly white Exilic Cuba and black Resident Cuba.

[/URL]



hmmmmmmm 19 Wonder what kind of relations President Obama might establish with Cuba?
Race is not a biological factor differentiating humans, rather, it is a social construction whose function is the oppression of the Object-Other for the benefit of the Subject.---article

I 'plucked' this gem, because it is the definition of 'race' rather than the often-asked-for definition of 'racism'.

I learned from Lerone Bennett's 'Before the Mayflower' 5th Edition that slavery made Cuban population more than 50% people of (unknown) African ancestry.


Thanks for the article.

HOTEP

Jim Chester
quote:
Deep Divisions, Shared Destiny - A Poll of Black, Hispanic, and Asian Americans on Race Relations
---article

Thanks for this article also.

I try not to waste my time reading the writings of a person who talks in terms of 'race relations' seven years into the 21st century.

This is a concept created by Booker T. Washington at the close of the 19th century as a method for co-existing, and finding favor, with European-Americans.


HOTEP

Jim Chester
This myth of racial equality was validated through the appointment of a few blacks to positions of prestige.[24] Maceo, Cuba's greatest general, became "proof" that racism had ceased to exist in Cuba. White Cubans excused themselves from restitution for slave exploitation, branded any organization protesting racial discrimination as itself a racist group, vilified black consciousness as a threat to national unity

~Deja vu`? Insert "Obama" and "reparation". Are we close to making a case for reparations and we just don't know it, but the powers that be DO know it? Would a strategic placement of a black man in the most powerful position in this United States render the "case" DISMISSED due to "proof" to the contrary, as evidenced by said placement and also the strategic placements of others to the other Important United States Positions? The difference between those who "make it" and those who don't boiling down to the "bootstraps" vs. the "sneaker laces"? The lazy and the go-getters? 19 ObamaMania....t-shirts, hats, coffee mugs, Obamagirl. Set-up?

Sugar, Rice, Cotton....black sweat..black blood....black death for the end result of white wealth.

Clearly a case can be made for reparations. Is it a Republican Administration "secret" that we are close and we just don't know it?

And let's talk econ. What is the REAL diffence between stimulating the economy with a gazillion dollar$ being given to "the masses" ---- the difference between that and giving it specifically to slave descendants? Would we not stimulate the economy? Haven't they made a point of making it known that we do more "materialistic spending" than anyone else? Or, why can't LESS THAN a gazillion be given out for "stimulus" so that a PORTION can be given in slave reparations, which would also result in "stimulus"?~
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ac9311:
I would love nothing more than to see employers doing the perp walk.

Whether we like it or not, boundaries are decided as a result of war. Colonialists also took indian lands and called it Mexico.


quote:

And you seem to have little problem with that given your nationalist/nativist rants. With your land logic, Whites have every right to rule over South Africa and Palestinians have no right to any land in Israel.


No, I do have a problem with someone claiming rights to someone else's land just because they want it. No where in any of my statements did I say that I was cool with an entire country being taken by anyone.

Whether we like it or not. Borders on this entire world have changed throughout history. And they still do to this day. It is what it is. That doesn't mean I agree or like it.

I just find it funny how people like you always want to say that the U.S. took Mexican land, but you never want to consider the fact that Spain took Indian land and renamed it Mexico.

If you can't see that you and I are talking about the same thing then I don't know what else I can say to make you understand that. You asked for proof that id theft does involve illegal aliens. I gave you that.

I made a point to give you data dating back several years and as recent as Janurary of this year. Now you want to redirect the converstation and tell me that I am ok with white people taking African land or Palestinian land. I have never insinuated that or even said that.

If I did, please show me the quote in which I did. If I am wrong about something when I debate someone, I will admit I was. I have no problem being a man and saying "I was wrong. Thanks for giving me the correct information".

But I will not stand for someone making false accusation's about what I say. Furthemore I am in no way a nationalist. If I am expected to abide by the laws of the land in which I live where ever in the world that is. Then I expect everyone else to. If not let the authorities do their job, Enforce the law.

I went to school with Sioux indian children from reservations in South Dakota. I was friends with them
and saw up close and personal what they went through. How they were made to feel. It wasn't much different from what I was going through.

I lived in Japan and Okinawa for 6 years and saw how Americans treated the locals like we owned their country. I lived in Japanese neighborhoods, in which Americans walked around among the locals looking down their noses at them. African Americans were no exception. They did the same thing. I didn't like that either.

I have worked with and have continental African friends, who get treated like they are aliens by African Americans.

I have lived with, went to school and work with Latinos and continue to do so today. I don't care if either group votes for Obama, Hillary or anyone else. That is their right.

They just like us can vote for whomever they want to. If that's Hillary or Obama, I hope they get the president that they want.

Everything written on this and any board is based on peoples personal experiences, something they've seen and or read. That's it.

So, before you start telling people how they think, you may want to pay close attention to what they are actually trying to convey to you.
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
This myth of racial equality was validated through the appointment of a few blacks to positions of prestige.[24] Maceo, Cuba's greatest general, became "proof" that racism had ceased to exist in Cuba. White Cubans excused themselves from restitution for slave exploitation, branded any organization protesting racial discrimination as itself a racist group, vilified black consciousness as a threat to national unity

~Deja vu`? Insert "Obama" and "reparation". Are we close to making a case for reparations and we just don't know it, but the powers that be DO know it? Would a strategic placement of a black man in the most powerful position in this United States render the "case" DISMISSED due to "proof" to the contrary, as evidenced by said placement and also the strategic placements of others to the other Important United States Positions? The difference between those who "make it" and those who don't boiling down to the "bootstraps" vs. the "sneaker laces"? The lazy and the go-getters? 19 ObamaMania....t-shirts, hats, coffee mugs, Obamagirl. Set-up?

Sugar, Rice, Cotton....black sweat..black blood....black death for the end result of white wealth.

Clearly a case can be made for reparations. Is it a Republican Administration "secret" that we are close and we just don't know it?

And let's talk econ. What is the REAL diffence between stimulating the economy with a gazillion dollar$ being given to "the masses" ---- the difference between that and giving it specifically to slave descendants? Would we not stimulate the economy? Haven't they made a point of making it known that we do more "materialistic spending" than anyone else? Or, why can't LESS THAN a gazillion be given out for "stimulus" so that a PORTION can be given in slave reparations, which would also result in "stimulus"?~


That's exactly right. One of the biggest problems facing continued black rise is the rise of the black middle class and their moving out to white communities. I am not arguing that black folks are wrong for doing this....not at all. What I am noting is that actions create reactions. Blacks moving into Middle Class white America means that these are the blacks the white folks see. They see blacks living as well as them. They see blacks with jobs just as good as theirs. They see black kids in their children's schools. So their perception becomes that blacks have made it. They rarely get to see the black concentration camps of poverty in the inner cities. They are not privy to all the statistics on black rates of poverty, wealth and so forth, relative to their own. If you add a black president to that mix....then all the policies aimed at African Americas becomes seen as black favoritism and anti white discrimination even more than they have been in the past. It becomes harder for whites to rationalize, in their mind, the need for racial set asides and programs targeted for blacks when they see blacks doing as well and better than them......and "for Christ sake.....the President is a Black man". This will only increase resistance to black programs and polices going forward. You know this is the case because when Obama won Iowa all kinds of white folks came out talking about how this implied the death of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and divisive racial politics.

People need to go back and revisit the Reparations issue at the Conference on Racial Equality in Durban South Africa back in 2001. I think that they allowed the trans atlantic slave trade to be officially called "A crime against humnity"....for which there is no statute of limitations for such events. I can recall the momentum coming out of that meeting and how all the black leaders came back fired up......then 911 hit and any talk of that made blacl leaders seem unpatriotic and Anti American. The country needed to COME TOGETHER because it was attacked and the reparations issue was too divisive. Anyone remember that? I initially thought it plausable that 911 was a conspiracy against reparations...among other things.
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
One of the biggest problems facing continued black rise is the rise of the black middle class and their moving out to white communities. I am not arguing that black folks are wrong for doing this....not at all. What I am noting is that actions create reactions. Blacks moving into Middle Class white America means that these are the blacks the white folks see. They see blacks living as well as them. They see blacks with jobs just as good as theirs. They see black kids in their children's schools. So their perception becomes that blacks have made it. They rarely get to see the black concentration camps of poverty in the inner cities. They are not privy to all the statistics on black rates of poverty, wealth and so forth, relative to their own.

Good Analogy. I never thought about it in such simplistic terms. I would like to add that blacks moving to the suburbs has been occuring for about 40 years now.

With that being said, you not only have white people who have never had any interaction with black people from the inner city. You now have at least two generations of black people who have little to no interaction with people from the inner city on a regular basis.

I think that is where some of the division comes from within the black community.

quote:

If you add a black president to that mix....then all the policies aimed at African Americas becomes seen as black favoritism and anti white discrimination even more than they have been in the past. It becomes harder for whites to rationalize, in their mind, the need for racial set asides and programs targeted for blacks when they see blacks doing as well and better than them......and "for Christ sake.....the President is a Black man". This will only increase resistance to black programs and polices going forward.


That's why Obama is the perfect black man at this time in history. He was reared as a white guy with black skin (I am not trying to slander him).

Maybe the way around the issues you present is for him to make his case for the poor in general.

Create a position for John Edwards and let him drive the program in a very visibly fashion. Helping the poor has clearly become his passion.

Noah, I like the your perspective on things.
quote:
Originally posted by ac9311:
No, I do have a problem with someone claiming rights to someone else's land just because they want it. No where in any of my statements did I say that I was cool with an entire country being taken by anyone.

Whether we like it or not. Borders on this entire world have changed throughout history. And they still do to this day. It is what it is. That doesn't mean I agree or like it.


Well, to rant about "illegal immigration", one has to accept and agree with the premise that this land is rightfully owned in the first place. Otherwise the argument against 'illegal immigration' falls apart because there is no logical basis for 'legal immigration'.

quote:
I just find it funny how people like you always want to say that the U.S. took Mexican land, but you never want to consider the fact that Spain took Indian land and renamed it Mexico.


I think about that too. But at this point nothing can be done about it unless the Native Americans or Mestizos of Mexico decided to rename it back to its original Aztec name. Yes, both the US and Spain took Indian land, which is one of my main problems with immigration laws. It's based on the colonial carving up of land.

quote:
If you can't see that you and I are talking about the same thing then I don't know what else I can say to make you understand that. You asked for proof that id theft does involve illegal aliens. I gave you that.


I didn't think that no 'illegal aliens' did ID theft, but I thought it was a pretty rare thing among them. And I provided an article which showed that it is rare amongst undocumented immigrants and is much more common among middle class citizens.

quote:
I made a point to give you data dating back several years and as recent as Janurary of this year. Now you want to redirect the converstation and tell me that I am ok with white people taking African land or Palestinian land. I have never insinuated that or even said that.


I didn't say you are, I said that the logical conclusion would force you to have to be okay with it. If you believe some people are "illegal immigrants" that means you have to agree with colonial border laws in the first place. And to do that, you also have to agree with other colonial border laws such as the border laws of Israel and South Africa. That's what you would have to be okay with to be logically and ethically consistent in being against 'illegal immigration'.

quote:
But I will not stand for someone making false accusation's about what I say.


I'm not accusing you of saying anything, I simply pointed out the logical conclusion of conservative immigration beliefs:

quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
With your land logic, Whites have every right to rule over South Africa and Palestinians have no right to any land in Israel.


By "land logic" I'm referring to your logic on some immigrants being 'illegal'. If some Mexican immigrants are "illegal", then Israel has to be right as well with its territory laws.


quote:
Furthemore I am in no way a nationalist. If I am expected to abide by the laws of the land in which I live where ever in the world that is. Then I expect everyone else to. If not let the authorities do their job, Enforce the law.


Just because something is the law does not make it right. It used to be the law that Blacks were not allowed to sit at the front of the bus or drink from the same water fountains as Whites. Some citizens made illegal actions by disobeying those laws. But few people today would consider them "criminals". I feel the same way about immigration. "Legal" != "morally right/justified" in my opinion. A lot of bad things are legal and a lot of good things are illegal.

quote:
I went to school with Sioux indian children from reservations in South Dakota. I was friends with them
and saw up close and personal what they went through. How they were made to feel. It wasn't much different from what I was going through.

I lived in Japan and Okinawa for 6 years and saw how Americans treated the locals like we owned their country. I lived in Japanese neighborhoods, in which Americans walked around among the locals looking down their noses at them. African Americans were no exception. They did the same thing. I didn't like that either.

I have worked with and have continental African friends, who get treated like they are aliens by African Americans.

I have lived with, went to school and work with Latinos and continue to do so today. I don't care if either group votes for Obama, Hillary or anyone else. That is their right.

They just like us can vote for whomever they want to. If that's Hillary or Obama, I hope they get the president that they want.

Everything written on this and any board is based on peoples personal experiences, something they've seen and or read. That's it.


It was interesting to hear some of your life experiences (I really mean it, I'm not being a smart-ass Smile), and it's good to reflect on such experiences when talking about immigration. Whether they will admit it or not, many people do have a big problem with immigration simply because it's Brown people sneaking across (not saying you're one of those people basing their dislike of the border situation on race).

quote:
So, before you start telling people how they think, you may want to pay close attention to what they are actually trying to convey to you.


I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, but respectfully I can't see how you can argue that some immigration is "illegal" without agreeing with colonialist conceptions of territory.
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
This myth of racial equality was validated through the appointment of a few blacks to positions of prestige.[24] Maceo, Cuba's greatest general, became "proof" that racism had ceased to exist in Cuba. White Cubans excused themselves from restitution for slave exploitation, branded any organization protesting racial discrimination as itself a racist group, vilified black consciousness as a threat to national unity

~Deja vu`? Insert "Obama" and "reparation". Are we close to making a case for reparations and we just don't know it, but the powers that be DO know it? Would a strategic placement of a black man in the most powerful position in this United States render the "case" DISMISSED due to "proof" to the contrary, as evidenced by said placement and also the strategic placements of others to the other Important United States Positions? The difference between those who "make it" and those who don't boiling down to the "bootstraps" vs. the "sneaker laces"? The lazy and the go-getters? 19 ObamaMania....t-shirts, hats, coffee mugs, Obamagirl. Set-up?

Sugar, Rice, Cotton....black sweat..black blood....black death for the end result of white wealth.

Clearly a case can be made for reparations. Is it a Republican Administration "secret" that we are close and we just don't know it?

And let's talk econ. What is the REAL diffence between stimulating the economy with a gazillion dollar$ being given to "the masses" ---- the difference between that and giving it specifically to slave descendants? Would we not stimulate the economy? Haven't they made a point of making it known that we do more "materialistic spending" than anyone else? Or, why can't LESS THAN a gazillion be given out for "stimulus" so that a PORTION can be given in slave reparations, which would also result in "stimulus"?~


That's exactly right. One of the biggest problems facing continued black rise is the rise of the black middle class and their moving out to white communities. I am not arguing that black folks are wrong for doing this....not at all. What I am noting is that actions create reactions. Blacks moving into Middle Class white America means that these are the blacks the white folks see. They see blacks living as well as them. They see blacks with jobs just as good as theirs. They see black kids in their children's schools. So their perception becomes that blacks have made it. They rarely get to see the black concentration camps of poverty in the inner cities. They are not privy to all the statistics on black rates of poverty, wealth and so forth, relative to their own. If you add a black president to that mix....then all the policies aimed at African Americas becomes seen as black favoritism and anti white discrimination even more than they have been in the past. It becomes harder for whites to rationalize, in their mind, the need for racial set asides and programs targeted for blacks when they see blacks doing as well and better than them......and "for Christ sake.....the President is a Black man". This will only increase resistance to black programs and polices going forward. You know this is the case because when Obama won Iowa all kinds of white folks came out talking about how this implied the death of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and divisive racial politics.

People need to go back and revisit the Reparations issue at the Conference on Racial Equality in Durban South Africa back in 2001. I think that they allowed the trans atlantic slave trade to be officially called "A crime against humnity"....for which there is no statute of limitations for such events. I can recall the momentum coming out of that meeting and how all the black leaders came back fired up......then 911 hit and any talk of that made blacl leaders seem unpatriotic and Anti American. The country needed to COME TOGETHER because it was attacked and the reparations issue was too divisive. Anyone remember that? I initially thought it plausable that 911 was a conspiracy against reparations...among other things.


~Sep 1, 2001

Reparations
Listen Now: [7 min 15 sec]

Real MediaExplain these links
All Things Considered, September 1, 2001 · NPR's Philip Martin reports on the growing debate among Ivy League colleges on the merit of reparations for the legacy of slavery. (NPR is offering extensive Web coverage of the racism conference.)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1128357
~This woman recently discovered that her family wealth is attributed to owning the MOST slaves in her area at the time. She is ashamed, and working to right the wrong. I also listened to her on NPR. She sounded extremely sincere in diligent in her efforts and she's learning and growing as she goes. She had a particularly interesting exchange with her black camera woman [one of her efforts is a film - which is now finished] when they actually went to a Ghana Homecoming. Ghana locals gave her something to think about. I'll look for the link to that radio interview. Here is an article on her.~


The DeWolf Family Burden

01:00 AM EST on Sunday, February 3, 2008

By Paul Davis

Journal Staff Writer

Katrina Brown, above, at the cemetery in Bristol where six generations of DeWolfs are buried. At right, Thomas Norman DeWolf, author of Inheriting the Trade: A Northern Family Confronts Its Legacy as the Largest Slave-Trading Dynasty in U.S. History.


The Providence Journal / FRIEDA SQUIRES
For much of his life, Thomas Norman DeWolf successfully avoided the thorny issues of race, inequality and white privilege.

When blacks rioted in Los Angeles in the '60s, he left a troubled public school for an all-white private one. He graduated from a Christian college and moved to Bend, Ore., a town that is "95 percent white."

"I grew up watching Leave it to Beaver," says the former businessman and county commissioner. On Sundays he went to church; in the summer he lived at the beach.

Then, in 2001, he joined nine distant cousins on a life-changing journey.

The organizer, Katrina Browne, had made a startling discovery while at seminary school: their ancestors, the DeWolfs of Bristol, had dominated the nation's slave trade for 50 years.

"Everyone has secrets," says DeWolf in his powerful new memoir, Inheriting the Trade: A Northern Family Confronts Its Legacy as the Largest Slave-Trading Dynasty in U.S. History.The DeWolfs had a big one: From 1769 to 1820, the clan's fathers, sons and grandsons trafficked in human beings. They sailed ships filled with rum and guns from Bristol to West Africa, where they purchased African captives on the coast. The captives were then shipped to plantations that the DeWolfs owned in Cuba or were sold at auction in such ports as Havana and Charleston, S.C.

The family owned 47 ships and transported 10,000 Africans into New World slavery. That represented about 60 percent of all slave voyages from Bristol.

When the United States outlawed the practice in 1808, the DeWolfs broke the law and shipped slaves from Africa to Cuba.

Business was good. With money from the trade and privateering, the DeWolfs opened a bank, an insurance company and a rum distillery on the Bristol waterfront. By one account, a quarter of the town's residents did business directly with the family. In 1812, the DeWolfs owned more ships than the U.S. Navy.

They weren't alone. As scholars have shown, Rhode Islanders, many of them in Newport and Providence, financed more than 1,000 slave voyages and transported more than 100,000 Africans across the terrible Middle Passage.

FOR YEARS THE story of the North's involvement in the trade has been ignored, played down or forgotten, a victim of what one historian calls "Northern amnesia."

DeWolf's book, published last month by Beacon Press, is part of a growing effort to recover that past.

Much of the book chronicles the making of Katrina Browne's documentary film, the similarly titled Traces of the Trade, a Story from the Deep North.

The film follows Browne, the author, and eight other DeWolf descendants, ranging from sisters to seventh cousins, as they retrace the steps of the Triangle Trade.

The film, which has been shown in Rhode Island several times, won national attention last month when it premiered at the Sundance Film Festival.

Both the film and book start with a key event: the Fourth of July parade in Bristol.

Gathering in 2001, the DeWolf descendants, dubbed "The Family of Ten," watch from the sloping lawn of Linden Place, a mansion built by George DeWolf with money made from the slave trade and his Cuban plantation, Arca de Noe, or Noah's Ark.

They examine slave shackles from the estate of Capt. James DeWolf, a U.S. senator charged with murdering a slave. And they pore over passages from family letters, including one dated July 4, 1795: ". . . bought nine prime slaves, one woman and eight men. Paid for them tobacco, rum, hats, bread, mackerel . . . ."

The emerging picture bears little resemblance to the romanticized family portrait that the cousins grew up with. The DeWolfs, they were told, were "upright Yankees" and leading citizens "” ministers and bishops, philanthropists and professors, artists and architects.

What to do with this new portrait?

"Don't soil the DeWolf name, that's the message I'm getting," says Holly Fulton, a Peabody, Mass., school teacher.

Dain Perry, a financial planner from Boston, imagines a sign on a local street announcing, "You are entering Bristol, the historic center of U.S. slave trading." Another cousin finds it "chilling" that her ancestors beat and whipped people.

THE GROUP grapples with another burden, too.

Browne asks them to read an article on white privilege, defined by author Peggy McIntosh as "an invisible packet of unearned assets," a weightless knapsack jammed with "special provisions, maps, passports, codebooks, visas, clothes, tools and blank checks."

The cousins, nearly all of them Ivy League graduates, do not argue with McIntosh's thesis.

"I know how to dress, talk, act and use the body language of the ruling class and the powers that be," says Elizabeth Sturges Llerena, a New York artist and teacher. "I don't get stopped, watched, harassed or beaten by the police. I am on the inside track instantly."

DeWolf, then 47, begins to squirm; he's a long way from Bend, Ore. Hurt by an economic slump, he has lost a movie theater and restaurant and is now working as a county commissioner.

He is between things, in limbo, facing issues he avoided for years.

"This is heavier than I expected," he says. "The impact of race is so much greater than I ever realized .... If I were black, I think I'd be angry "” not only at what took place over the past few hundred years, but at white people who don't have a clue what's going on today."

Before they leave for Africa, the group hears from Keith Stokes, a black historian and executive director of the Newport County Chamber of Commerce. "Race relations are difficult to talk about," he warns. But don't forget, he adds: 11.5 million Africans came to the New World as slaves. They worked in New England ports and on Southern plantations.

"This is the foundation of the creation of North America."

IN GHANA, things begin to unravel.

Reeling from oppressive heat and pointed questions, the cousins bicker. Tempers fray.

At first, their collective guilt is assuaged by two professors at the University of Ghana. Every civilization practiced slavery, they say. And African chiefs sold slaves to the European traders. But the trade, they add, was driven by European demand.

It's not a topic many Ghanaians want to discuss, says Prof. Kofi Anyidoho. "It's not a pleasant story. Each time we tell it, people weep. If you tell it truly, people have to cry." He continues: "Slavery is the living wound under a patchwork of scars. The only hope of healing is to be willing to break through the scars to finally clean the wound properly and begin the healing."

In Bristol, the cousins had been nearly invisible. But in Ghana they arrive during Panafest, a huge celebration of African independence and culture. Some of their efforts to reach out were rebuffed.

"Are you not ashamed of coming here?" asks a student. Another insists that the family apologize for the deeds of their ancestors. A Ghanaian woman working with the film crew asks, "If you are trying to ease racial tensions, why are you having this conversation in Ghana, when the problem is really in America?"

At one point the family tours the dank rooms of two of Africa's largest slave forts. At Cape Coast Castle, they crowd into a dungeon for a scene in Browne's film. Suddenly, the camera lights fail and the room turns black, suffocating, airless.

DeWolf can see nothing as he sits inside a space that once held up to 200 men.

"For the first moment in my life I have an inkling of what total despair feels like," he says. "Unimaginable horror envelopes me, pierces me. Tears stream down my cheeks."

DeWolf, of course, is not a slave. For a moment, he feels terror. But then he realizes he can never know the real horror of the place, or comprehend the loss and despair felt by millions of African men, women and children ripped from their homes.

The realization makes him even more miserable.

"I feel worse, more alone than I have ever felt in my life. Yet I am only scratching the surface of the scar."

IN CUBA, the group visits abandoned slave quarters and former sugar mills. "You should not feel the weight of history," counsels Natalia Bolivar, an Afro-Cuban scholar. "You're not living in the Inquisition."

But the cousins cannot shake their past. More than 100 slaves worked on one DeWolf plantation in 1818.

The DeWolfs, they learn, gave their plantations optimistic names: New Hope, Good Hope, Mount Hope. The slaves did not share in that optimism. In 1821, two ran away from one of the plantations. After they were caught, they were placed in heavy irons for four days and given "twenty-four lashes on the naked bottom ...."

When the trip ends, the family meets for a final time in Bristol to answer some tough questions. What do they owe society? What should they do? Can racism be erased?

"This project has so opened my eyes to things I've simply been blind to," says Thomas DeWolf during a break at the Sundance Film Festival. "It is a spiritual quest for me, but not in the traditional sense. People really need to examine their own lives and see the ways in which we perpetuate inequality."

The book and film come at a time when both race and gender have surfaced in the presidential campaign. DeWolf tackles both in his book, along with religious intolerance.

Although the book serves as a behind-the-scenes look at the film, it also offers something the film does not: a long deep look at one man's interior journey. Mildly interested in the trip at first, DeWolf charts his every discomfort as he confronts harsh truths about his family, America and himself. At one point, he holds his head in his hands.

DeWolf, who dreamed of writing as a teenager, took notes on the initial trip but did not start working full-time on the book until 2 1/2.

Seven years later, the cousins are part of an effort to reach a racial conciliation through public discussions and education. DeWolf is convinced that four things must happen first: awareness of the issue, an apology, some kind of reparations, and forgiveness from the harmed party. Legislators in New Jersey, Alabama, Maryland, North Carolina and Virginia have apologized or expressed "profound regret" for their role in slavery and the slave trade. Rhode Island should too, says DeWolf.

In the final pages of his book, DeWolf explains his philosophy this way:

"In recounting my journey with nine distant cousins, my intent is to stimulate both reflection and serious conversation. There are no simple answers. But if we don't confront these challenging issues, we will resolve nothing." By speaking out, he says, "we finally break through the scars to clean the living wound properly and begin the healing . . . together."

pdavis@projo.com
http://thestory.org/

click on "listen" ... top left side. Fascinating story! Like I said, she gets an awakening in Ghana, and from her AA camera woman, at that!

...and listen out for an eeeeeerie "family children's rhyme" about two of the family's child slaves. A rhyme that she's only just now making sense of.


....and here's the website for the film.~

http://www.tracesofthetrade.org/about.html
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You can't compare an Illegal Alien with a U.S. Citizens. How can anyone support one's violation of the Law, and willfully invading our Country. That's even unfair to those who try to enter legally.

However, I have seen more people of African Decent participating in Demonstrating by Illegals for Illegal Alien Causes than I have seen Hispanics participating in demonstration by Blacks for Black Causes.

How many Hispanics or Asians do you know that shop at African American Businesses? But I know you know some who shop at Hispanic and Asian Businesses. You can't justify your position by denying the facts.

leart
quote:
Originally posted by leart:
You can't compare an Illegal Alien with a U.S. Citizens. How can anyone support one's violation of the Law, and willfully invading our Country. That's even unfair to those who try to enter legally.

However, I have seen more people of African Decent participating in Demonstrating by Illegals for Illegal Alien Causes than I have seen Hispanics participating in demonstration by Blacks for Black Causes.

How many Hispanics or Asians do you know that shop at African American Businesses? But I know you know some who shop at Hispanic and Asian Businesses. You can't justify your position by denying the facts.

leart


Leart, check my 2nd post in this topic I question African immigrants having same attitudes as Hispanics towards AA's.

It would be interesting to hear the typical stereotypes Africans have of African Americans. I have always felt we are on our own among other minorities.
quote:
Originally posted by leart:
You can't compare an Illegal Alien with a U.S. Citizens. How can anyone support one's violation of the Law, and willfully invading our Country.


How did this become about undocumented immigrants? The thread is mainly about US citizens, and the stereotypes and hatred expressed against them by some on this board.

quote:
That's even unfair to those who try to enter legally.


In what way is a Haitian entering this country illegally unfair to a Cuban who enters legally?
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:

How did this become about undocumented immigrants? The thread is mainly about US citizens, and the stereotypes and hatred expressed against them by some on this board.



Confused Confused Confused


This thread is about the current lack of a political coalition with Hispanic and Asian voters and all the reasons that might be viable or might not be viable. It is you who is projecting "hatred". nono
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:

How did this become about undocumented immigrants? The thread is mainly about US citizens, and the stereotypes and hatred expressed against them by some on this board.



Confused Confused Confused


This thread is about the current lack of a political coalition with Hispanic and Asian voters and all the reasons that might be viable or might not be viable. It is you who is projecting "hatred". nono


Maybe you haven't been reading all of the comments.
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:

How did this become about undocumented immigrants? The thread is mainly about US citizens, and the stereotypes and hatred expressed against them by some on this board.



Confused Confused Confused


This thread is about the current lack of a political coalition with Hispanic and Asian voters and all the reasons that might be viable or might not be viable. It is you who is projecting "hatred". nono


Maybe you haven't been reading all of the comments.



yes, find a post which can be interpreted as "hate" and not just somebody expressing a point in a strong manner. And when you are on the white and hispanic or asian boards,make sure you are pointing out instances of "hatred" against african americans, ok? flowers
Africans who are snobbish toward African Americans are a different situation. They (Africans) are trying to establish or affirm to the American Public that they are of a different Class of People than most African Americans, and they don't want to be misidentified.

Most African living in this Country are from well-to-do African Families, they didn't just hop a Freighter and became a Stow-away. Many came on Student, or Guest Visas, and remained here when their Visa's expires, and this is true with many illegals.

leart
Black people have forged their own stake in this country on blood and sweat. I dont know how hispanics treat blacks in those 3rd world countrys. I have a high opinion of Cuba and I know they arent racist towards blacks. As far as mexico and all those other countrys with christianity as their main belief, (Whiteman/God image) are unjust towards people of african descent. I knew a dominican family, they were dark as me but claimed they were white(lol) they think they are white. They are messed up the latin culture is backwards, when it comes to the human relations. There is no coalition between blacks and hispanics , they think they are better than blacks. Here in New york , the black and hispanic caucus is going to take place in Albany , ny the capital of New York state. Coming from New york , we dont trust them , dont turn your back they are known for using knives. I love anyone who shows me love no matter the color or the race. I think Obama , transends all of the petty racial and social bickering between the races, I think he's on the right path, and we all need to follow him. He could never do worse then that racist bush.
I think you are confused. It's all about Illegal Aliens and the pressure that those coming across the Southern Border put on the American Socioeconomic Structure, and the disporportionate affect it has on low income people, who are mostly African American. What do you think the Friction between the Hispanic, Asians, and African American is all about? You must be living in another world.

These Hispanics are from countries where they are the dominate Ethnic Group, but rather than improve the situation in their own Country where they are a Monolith, they decide to come to another Country and Depress the Wages, destroy the Health Care system, the Educational systems, and make life worse for every poor person in the Country they invaded.

leart
quote:
Originally posted by leart:

These Hispanics are from countries where they are the dominate Ethnic Group, but rather than improve the situation in their own Country where they are a Monolith, they decide to come to another Country and Depress the Wages, destroy the Health Care system, the Educational systems, and make life worse for every poor person in the Country they invaded.


This is Bullshit!

Mad
quote:
Originally posted by leart:
I think you are confused. It's all about Illegal Aliens and the pressure that those coming across the Southern Border put on the American Socioeconomic Structure, and the disporportionate affect it has on low income people, who are mostly African American. What do you think the Friction between the Hispanic, Asians, and African American is all about? You must be living in another world.

These Hispanics are from countries where they are the dominate Ethnic Group, but rather than improve the situation in their own Country where they are a Monolith, they decide to come to another Country and Depress the Wages, destroy the Health Care system, the Educational systems, and make life worse for every poor person in the Country they invaded.

leart



I agree with everything in your post. Bravo. I do not believe it is the intent of Mexicans to make life worse for every poor person in the U.S., but, this is certainly the outcome.

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