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Hey y'all. It's me....ole DogBreath again and I have been engaged in a very interesting conversation with some of our white brethren on another site. I challenged them a ways back about taking personal responsibility for what comes from their community....since they like to tell us to take responsibility for black crime and the high rate of illegitimacy in our black community.(Incidently, our rate last year was 69% or 398,000 or so illegitimate black babies. Their rate...white folk rate...was 24% or 564,000 or so illegitimate white babies. When I added those actual numbers in there, you know what they did...they went ballistic like they always do. Too funny, but I digresssssss.....HAHAHA!!) Anywhoo. I posted that Tim Wise piece about personal responsibility being a two way street. I challenged them to do something about the racism and the discrimination that comes from their community and that if they did that, we Negroes could spend more time concentrating on problems in our own community. usual...they got riled up like a bunch of stupid hornets buzzin' away. HAHAHA!!

Well, one of those white dudes stated that white people HAVE done their jobs because racism is "better" today than it was 40 or 50 years ago. I was like.....WHAT THE HELL???? You think it's "better" because a brotha doesn't have to worry about being kidnapped by a bunch of hooded cowards and lynched?? Please.

What do you guys think?? Better still, I'm going to post the thread I created to show you the madness in the white community.


Y'all think racism has gotten "better".....

Oh well.....
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Hmmmm ... this question walks a pretty fine line!! I can't decide if "better" would really be the appropriate word I would choose.

Today's racism is certainly not as blatant as yesterday's. More of us than not don't have to worry about lynch mobs busting in the door and taking us out to the nearest tree. Instead today we have police brutality still running rampant. Frown

I think there are more White people trying to be tolerant today than in yesteryear, and that actually equates to a better understanding or at least a willingness to understand which makes relations better. But, I also think that if, as people say, Black people today are still carrying around this 'slave mentality', then it would stand to reason that White people may still be carrying some kind of "massa mentality", which would explain their (subconscious) feeling of white superiority because so many of them will be the first ones to stand up and declare that they are "not a racist."

We've certainly come a long way. And it has been a process of give-and-take on both sides and everyone has been changed by the changes that have taken place. And it has been a benefit ... compared to what it was.

So, although white people have not "done their jobs" yet because the job isn't over by a long shot .... I might could go with "better." Smile

However ... I haven't clicked on the link yet to see what they were saying over there, so I may have a whole 'nother answer later on! Big Grin
I can't get past the metaphorical twisted idea that somehow, since the habitual wife-beater stops beating... the cessation of beatings in a relationship that is still abusive -- i.e. "there is still racism", they are willing to say (paying Lip Service) -- amounts to something that can be classified as "better".

So I'm with Ebony. Very poor, twisted and absurd choice of words.

DOGBREATH, I read through that thread when you first posted this. And the thing that struck me was how you tried to frame the discussion in terms of White Responsibility for eradicating the racism that still exist but they stayed stuck on the "it's better" idea to skirt any responsibility for the racism they claim they acknowledge as existing and real.

Not once did any one of them (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) ever speak in terms what to do about present-day racism. Oh but they wanted points for saying "I believe there is still racism." Which is just too funny.

What your thread has done has actually shown the whole responsibility thing in a new light (for me). Your counterparts on that forum were quick to say "it's better" but, it must be noted, that things are "better" not because of something they did. In fact, in a round about way, they're trying to take credit for something they had no parts in.

And it wasn't like White people en masse just changed their minds. It was by force of law... And, your counterparts there, no matter how they perceive you... they no doubt hardly show that their minds have changed that much - as demonstrated by the stats they like to compare and how when specific incidents or types of racism they hardly acknowledge that racism.

Of course, we've all been there and done that.

It is important, though, to be able to articulate what this more subtle racism today is. Just saying it's more subtle doesn't say much of anything about it or make it any more real. Not that matters much to a committed denier. But it helps makes your case.
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Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
I thought you didn't care about racism or racial discrimination.

OH YEAH! THAT'S RIGHT! You Black "I don't give a damn that racism still exists" types are only talking about WHITE racism. You're all to eager to point out "Black racism" or "racism against Whites".

....and again there is certainly more than enough blame that can be passed around.

Those are your beliefs and not mine. There are good, bad, and the ugly characteristics in every ethnic group!
It is laudable to try to help heal your sick enemy, particularly when the illness demonstrates itself in actively damaging you and all those who look like you.

We know that we also suffer from an illness caused by the same societal abomination, AND it demonstrates itself in actively damaging you and all those who look like you.

In both cases, the manifestations have decreased.

Someone once admonished the 'physician' to 'heal thyself'.

I am inclined to concentrate on healing myself.

Selfish of me.


Jim Chester
What I have found is that many whites come to the defense of white racism as a strategy to protect their individual images. They cannot or will not rationalize that the general rule of white people, which is encapsulated by the phrase or generalization (white people), does not and is not meant to imply ALL white people. Consequently, they interpret our attack on racism emanating from whites as a personal attack which they can only shield themselves from by defending the collective.

You cannot have a discussion on the collective impact of white racism without white individuals getting defensive. Indeed, that defensiveness, in this instance, is an acknowledgment of collective, if not individual, guilt, which, in turn, is an acknowledgment of responsibility. In short, the white people who are not racist or who are less racist than other and therefore feel they are racism void, are stained by association with the collective. Yet, when confronted with the issue of the racist effect of the white collective historically and its contemporary impact upon the present, whites that think they are not racist get angry not at racist whites past and present, but at blacks who have the audacity to EXPOSE this racism and its effect.

There are many white people who honestly do want to move past racism by pretending that it never happened (and they get angry with us for not pretending along with them...making them racist). However, they don't realize that blacks do not have the luxury of simply pretending that it never happened or happens when we must live with the effects upon our condition. It would be like a driver of a car being drunk and running over a pedestrian. It's a bad memory for the driver and the pedestrian, but the driver can pretend that it never happened and live his or her life. However, the pedestrian who now walks with a painful limp has the constant reminder of the transgression to live with as a reminder. The problem for the driver though is that every time he sees the limping pedestrian he will be reminded of his misdeeds, lest he can find rationalizations to deflect responsibility. So the driver then links the limp to the pedestrian not taking the personal responsibility to get proper medical treatment, which exonerates the driver psychologically and monetarily.
"It is laudable to try to help heal your sick enemy, particularly when the illness demonstrates itself in actively damaging you and all those who look like you.

We know that we also suffer from an illness caused by the same societal abomination, AND it demonstrates itself in actively damaging you and all those who look like you." by James Chester

.....The greater enemy to the Black community are the actions of the Black community itself!


...and no telling how many Black people Tookie Williams and/or his associates are responsible for killing over three decades.

Heck, in the early seventies, members of the Crips would hold up at gun point, Black men and women who wore Black leather jackets, the jackets owned by the victims.

Many such incidents took place at the Hollywood Bowl, and/or other social events, where under normal circumstances it would not even cross a concert goer's mind that they would be held up at gun point, shot, beaten, maimed, and/or killed, for their clothing, jewelry, wallet, Black leather jacket, etc., etc. while taking in a concert, etc., etc., during a family and friends outing.

It would not be any great loss to the Black community to have Tookie Williams and/or others who have been responsible for the deaths of numerous innocent Black men and women, over the years, put to death.

Mind you, Tookie Williams is on Death Row for killing a Korean family, and a Caucasian male.

If Tookie Williams were also on trial for the deaths of Black people, he is also responsible for killing, slim chance exists where there would be any reason for Tookie Williams, and/or his associates, to escape the Death penalty.

Agents Arrest 8 in Gang Sweep

Action is aimed at drug-related violence in Baldwin Village in southwest L.A. Seven more are detained on parole violations.

By Richard Winton, Times Staff Writer

November 11, 2005

The FBI and Los Angeles Police Department on Thursday arrested what authorities described as the leaders of a gang responsible for 28 murders over the last five years in and around a one-square-mile area of southwest Los Angeles.

Hundreds of heavily armored LAPD officers and FBI agents carrying 16 federal drug indictments stormed locations in the Baldwin Village area, arresting suspected members of the Black P-Stone gang.
The arrest capped more than a year of investigation in which authorities used informants to infiltrate the organization and make drug buys that were recorded secretly on videotape. All of the charges related to drug offenses, including conspiracy to distribute crack cocaine.

"This is a battle between good and evil. These are evil people. They are murderers. They are drug dealers. They poison these neighborhoods," Police Chief William J. Bratton said at a news conference. "We are making a major effort to disrupt and hopefully dismantle the leadership of one of the more prolifically violent gangs in the city of Los Angeles."

Bratton said the Black P-Stones have deep roots in a gritty section of low-slung apartment houses between La Brea Avenue and Crenshaw Boulevard south of Coliseum Street. Baldwin Village, for generations known as "the Jungle" for its rich assortment of tropical foliage, was the backdrop for portions of the crime film "Training Day."

Baldwin Village has long been an island of heavy gang activity in a larger community of middle-class and upper-middle-class neighborhoods that dot southwest Los Angeles at the foot of the Baldwin Hills, said Police Capt. James Craig, division commander for the southwest area.

Baldwin Village is less than a mile square, but the LAPD estimates that it is home to 700 to 800 gang members. Police Lt. Paul Vernon said that is an extraordinarily high ratio "” even for the city's highest-crime neighborhoods. "These are the guys who lure teenagers into the gang life," he said.

Over the last five years, Black P-Stone members have been involved in 800 street robberies and 1,500 aggravated assaults as well as the 28 murders, said Craig.

Bratton has been so concerned about crime in Baldwin Village that he selected the area as one of five neighborhoods to receive extra officers, who are pursuing small crimes such as trespassing in hopes of preventing more serious crimes. Craig said that this effort has reduced crime somewhat, but that officials expect a larger drop in the wake of the arrests.

The FBI and LAPD called the investigation "Operation Stone Cold." Detectives spent more than a year building cases against gang leaders with street nicknames such as "Briminal," "Blaster" and "Bandit."

Authorities said many of the cases are built around videotapes of gang members selling drugs to informants.

"We've worked to put them away for a very long time. Those arrested today face 40 years to life if convicted," J. Stephen Tidwell, assistant director in charge of the Los Angeles FBI office, said at a news conference announcing the arrests.

Authorities had arrested eight people as of 8 p.m. Thursday and were searching for eight others. An additional seven not listed on arrest warrants were detained for alleged parole violations and other charges.

Those arrested Thursday included: Shannon Thomas Adkins, known as "Big Stray Dogg," 31, of Los Angeles; Lorenzo Clay II, known as "Big Man," 32, of Hawthorne; Ronald Herbert Ellis, known as "Blaster," 40, of Los Angeles; Lawrence Eugene Hill Sr., known as "LB" and "Lil Black," 35; David Dermaine Jones, known as "Tall Blood" and "Popkorn," 29, of Los Angeles; Derek Pascascio, known as "PB" and "Quran Durant," 29, of Los Angeles; Aaron Westley Smith Sr., known as "Bandit," 31, of Los Angeles; James Womack IV, also known as "J-Berry" and "J-Bear," 32, of Inglewood.

Eight others remain fugitives: Carlos Merrel Broady, also known as "Wink," 28; Cornel Crosby Carnegie, known as "J.J.," 26; Mark Anthony Dacosta, known as "Marky Boy," 34; Jesse Lee Floyd III, known as "Jesse James," 49; Ronald Lionel Hill Jr., known as "Big Rat Boy," 26; Quentin Lamont Howard, known as "Briminal," 32; Richard Pecantte, known as "Richie," 37; and Ray Dannell Walker.

Mind you, this activity has been going on since the seventies, in the area commonly referred to as the "Jungle", other parts of South Central Los Angeles, and/or other Black parts of town, activity that has led to the death of numerous innocent Black people over the years, the victims and/or the assailants, being Black people.

The authorities intend to clean up Los Angeles County, the City of Los Angeles, and/or other cities across the U.S., because this is necessary to promote business development, make for a safer environment for families, etc., etc.

....and it is certain, that those who participate in this type of activity have been warned, way in advance. It would behoove those who have not been arrested, to quit while they are ahead. Should they continue to operate, they can't honestly say they have not been forewarned.

Any individual or group of individuals who choose to continue to be participants in this type of activity, will either conform to respect the rights of others, or policing authorities and the court system will make it very uncomfortable for those who choose to live such a life style, at the expense of the law abiding.

....and you have Black people who want to free Tookie Williams, Tookie Williams who has shown no remorse for his victims......

.....not to mention untold numbers of Black innocent victims killed or maimed, many no Thanks to the likes of Tookie Williams, other Black gang members, and/or his or their, criminal associates.

Michael Lofton


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First, 69% of approximately 39 million African Americans would be FAR more than 398,000; 69% would be more than half, well over half of 39 million . . .

As far as racism, I can't really see what has changed so much. I think it's basically the same when you take into consideration all of the hell that African Americans and people of color continue to go through in this country on a daily basis, especially, taking into consideration it's still dependent upon what part of the country and even what part of a given state for even what part of a given town or side of town or which industry or business or educational institution or bank/lending institution, or which media circuit . . .

The only thing that has truely changed is the tactics used to further America's racists' agendas.
Or should I put it this way, for every positive change in one instance or area, there is a negative that either remains or replaces it in another instance or area.
DogBreath... I've read some of the stuff from your debate over there some time ago. I ran across this and figured it would be of some interest:

QUESTION: How can you, as a man who was born in Oklahoma at a time when lynchings were common, and who later worked with Thurgood Marshall on Brown v. Board of Education, the landmark case that outlawed segregation in public schools, claim that we have made no progress in advancing the rights of African-Americans?

ANSWER: I'm not saying that! I'd jump out the window if I thought we had made no progress. What I am saying is that the changes have been superficial, and we are still a segregated society when it comes to schools and the neighborhoods where we live....
That was from the 90 year old and eminent historian John Hope Franklin. If C-SPAN makes a transcript, it would be great to have what he said today, voicing the same insight, on record.


...While Franklin's story itself is one of personal success, he is more ambivalent about the country's overall racial progress...

Today, Franklin is no less adamant in his insistence on the need for further progress in civil rights. While he recognizes that the country is on balance a better, more integrated place than it was on that Montgomery morning in 1965, he is also wary of any blanket conclusions regarding the state of American race relations. "The longer I live the more I am inclined to question the capability of the human race to be consistent in its judgment and unswerving in its commitment to lofty, constructive principles," he writes. "Racial discrimination and even racial segregation continue in blatant as well as subtle forms." There are more African Americans in professions and leadership positions than ever before, but there are also more African American men in prison than in college. Which, he asks, is a better measure of progress? To answer that question, Franklin decides, is the task confronting us today.
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The will for White folks (and others) to perpetuation their genetic seed WILL NEVER DIMINISH.

Today the LAW offers CONSEQUENCES if they or anyone else decides to act out upon what is in their minds to do in order to suppress Black folks.

It seems to me that we need to consider POWER and DEPENDENCY more than the question of "racism". What if the small number of Pakistanis in this country are "racists" and refuse to hire White folks in their "Blimpie" and "Subway" shops? Does this materially impact White folks in the big scheme of things?
More silly and stupid ass RHETORIC from you.

"WHAT IF..." WTF is that??

When you're going to propose that something be considered... Here's a thought! How about considering something that IS and not some hypothetical, devoid of any shade of reality and so far removed from being analogous type of RHETORICAL BULLSHIT!!!

Hmmm... One would think "THE SMALL NUMBER" would be a clue... But not for your DUMBASS!! You still have the nerve or rather the utter stupidity to actually ask this question with a straight cyber-face:
Does this materially impact White folks in the big scheme of things?

Ummm... Yeah, CON-Feed... SMALL NUMBERS always make BIG IMPACT in the BIG SCHEME of things. And Pakistanis really are inclined to discriminate against White people. Hell, every nationality of immigrant always does.

The first word they all learn fresh off the boat or plane is "Cracka!" no matter how much English they know. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Triple the sarcasm. Triple the boredom.

Dude, if you believe in TWO FRONTS, stop frontin'. If you really don't believe in TWO FRONTS. Stop Frontin'.

This is why the shit your say is nothing but RHETORIC. You can't say stuff that's real because you can't deal with stuff that's real. So, your M.O. is to make shit up as you go along.

What's up with the "WE NEED TO" stuff if you believe in TWO FRONTS? Like I said, STOP FRONTIN'.

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