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quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
Sister Oshun, notice there isn't as nearly as much controversy over hair in the brother's discussion about hair style choices. Oh the brothers are over there, chattin' it up, and happily posting pictures of themselves looking and feeling stress free and worry free. Get into the Sista's Spot, and here we go with the drama, shame, and condemnation.


Africa/Black women suffer racial AND gender oppression. Hence the difference in behavior(how many brothers wear perms now a days?) We also live in a patriarchal society where a woman's value is based more on her physical appearance(and it's proximity to the Euro standard).

quote:
I understand and can relate to both sides of the argument, however. And because I try to seek balance in a discussion, I'm not able to take one position over another. But I will make the observation that because it is socially acceptable for women to grow their hair at length, we carry the heaviest burden in terms of people expecting us to use our hair to make a political statement. Men have the choice to either keep their hair closely shaven or bald, and no one can readily determine or question the status of their consciousness (lucky them). A Black woman, on the other hand, gets a perm, and BAM!, she's an ignorant sellout. Later on, she decides to sport a fro, and WHAMO! she's credited for being pro-Black. It seems to me that women tend to be their own worst enemies.[QUOTE]

Who said a woman is a sellout for having a perm? If anything Rowe has eloquantly stated, and I agree with, the PRESSURE on a African/Black woman to change her hair phenotype to fit in with the western beauty standard is GREATER than that on males... and some succumb(understandably) particularly when they aren't consciously aware of the pressures on them. Nobody called a woman wearing a perm a sell-out, and nobody said that natural hair meant 'automatic consciousness'... In fact I said quite the opposite. If you would stop projecting, you may have realized you READ that.

[quote]~True, Rowe. 'Seems that way, doesn't it? And the very fact that it is a non-issue with the men, as well as with the native African woman speaks volumes. It shouldn't be an issue with African-American women, either.


I've been to Africa(four countries) In Africa hair and skin are a huge ISSUE. Colonialism and neo-colonialism/western/Amerikkkan imperialism are major issues, particularly when it comes to women. Bleaching and perming/weaving are issues... big issues. To discourage it in Ghana they do not allow the school girls to perm their hair until they graduate form 4(what we would refer to as high school). Arab and European imperialism has caused many of the same issues as here, some are even worse. Women burn and ruin their skin, scaring themselves for life by bleaching so they can be lighter and therefore 'more beautiful'. Patriarchal white supremacy is GLOBAL.

quote:
And I have absolute faith that had Madame Walker never laid an eye on a stringy-haired white woman, she would have STILL been creative enough to develop a hair care system for us. We know no bounds when it comes to hair creations, be it during Ancient Egyptian times to this VERY DAY. White women as muse and sole inspiration waaaaaaaaay back THEN or NOW for our creativity? Please! nono Whoever wants to own that untruth is free to do so, though. *shudder* But, they need to get a clue.~


Please give ONE example before colonialism(Arab and/or European) and slavery where African women in any society straightened their hair and/or added Asian hair to their head coincidentally with the outcome looking like Europeans and Arabs THAT THEY NEVER HAD CONTACT WITH.

I wouldn't be surprised if Maddame CJ walker would have came up with a hair care system like so many of the traditional herbalists from Africa have... But it's goal wouldn't have been to straighten and de-Africanize the hair.

Your denial is astounding. You just aren't comfortable dealing with global white supremacy(for whatever reason)... and your comments about continental African women makes me wonder if you even understand it.
I posted earlier:

~ Well, I think that question is better suited to those who may dye their hair blonde and the like. That hair color doesn't occur naturally to the black woman at all, and does to the white woman often. So that would be aspiring to a white standard of beauty for sure. But, the aspiration waters get pretty murky after that. From females that straighten their hair, and have always had a fondness for the long and straight look, I've heard FAR MORE references to aspiring to or the claiming of their real or suspected Indian Heritage. It's verbalized often. Aspiring to be like a white woman is hardly, if ever, verbalized. And that is EXACTLY, imo, what black women with long black hair look like to me ---- black females with some indian mixed into their African ancestry. And when I see black women who don't have the long hair, aspiring to have it, I see it as aspiring to have the hair that their black sistahs with naturally long straight hair have. This was witnessed throughout grade school. There was not much talk of having hair like Amy and Beth. So, I don't really see it as aspiring to a "white" standard, as white women are not the only female segment of the population with long, or straight hair. I see it as simply aspiring to be "feminine" as opposed to "boyish". Even when white women chop their hair off it's called a "boy cut", because it IS seen as LESS feminine. I don't think that would be any different for any race of women. The less hair, the more manly the style --- the more hair, the more feminine the style. White people don't have the monopoly on that.~


~And I'll add:

from WVU.edu


As early as the latter years of the nineteenth century, ethnologists cited the deep relationship between African Americans and Native Americans. James Mooney in 1897 noted: "It is not commonly known that in all southern colonies Indian slaves were bought and sold and kept in servitude and worked in the fields side by side with negroes up to the time of the revolution... Furthermore, as the coast tribes dwindled they were compelled to associate and intermarry with the negroes until they finally lost their identity and were classified with that race, so that a considerable proportion of the blood of the southern negroes is unquestionably Indian."37 In his 1937 doctoral dissertation, James Hugo Johnston asserted, "The end of Indian slavery came with the final absorption of the blood of the Indian by the more numerous Negro slave. But the blood of the Indian did not become extinct in the slave states, for it continued to flow in the veins of the Negro."38


In areas such as Southeastern Virginia, the "Low Country" of the Carolinas, and around Galphintown34 near Savannah, Georgia, communities of Afro-Indians began to arise. The term "mustee" came to distinguish between those who shared African and Native American ancestry from those who were a mixture of European and African. Even after 1720, black and red Carolinians continued to share slave quarters and intimate lives; many wills continued to refer to "all my Slaves, whether Negroes, Indians, Mustees, Or Molattoes."35 The depth and complexity of this intermixture are revealed in a 1740 slave code in South Carolina that ruled:

...all negroes and Indians, (free Indians in amity with this government, and negroes, mulattoes, and mustezoes, who are now free, excepted) mulattoes or mustezoes who are now, or shall hereafter be in this province, and all their issue and offspring...shall be and they are hereby declared to be, and remain hereafter absolute slaves.

Therefore, the largest numbers of Native American slaves in the early Southeast were women; there were as much as three to five times more Native women than men enslaved.29 Slave owners often desired African men to work the fields paired with Native American women to also work the fields as well as help around the house. John Norris, a South Carolina planter estimated the costs of setting up a plantation:

Imprimis; Fifteen good Negro Men at 45 lb each 675 lb.
Item: Fifteen Indian Women to work in the Field
at 18 lb each, comes to 270 lb.
Item, Three Indian Women as cooks for the Slaves
and other Household Business 55 lb.30
Historian J. Leitch Wright suggests that the presence of so many women slaves from the Southeastern Indian nations where matrilineal kinship was the norm helps to explain the prominent role of women in slave culture.


As Native American societies in the Southeast were primarily matrilineal, African males who married Native American women often became members of the wife's clan and citizens of the respective nation. As relationships grew, the lines of racial distinction began to blur, and the evolution of red-black people began to pursue its own course. Many of the people known as slaves, free people of color, Africans, or Indians were most often the products of an integrating culture.32 Some aspects of African American culture, including handicrafts, music, and folklore, may be Native American rather than African in origin. The cultures of Africans and Natives intertwined in complex ways in the early Southeast, and material culture, like social organization, often reflected the blending of these two cultures


During this period of transition, Africans and Native Americans shared the common experience of enslavement.25 In addition to working together in the fields, they lived together in communal living quarters, began to produce collective recipes for food and herbal remedies, shared myths and legends, and ultimately intermarried. Apart from their collective exploitation at the hands of colonial slavery, Africans and Native Americans possessed similar worldviews rooted in their historic relationship to the subtropical coastlands of the middle Atlantic.26 Considering historic circumstances, environmental associations, and sociocultural affiliations, the relationships among African Americans and Native Americans was much more extensive and enduring than most observers acknowledge. The intermarriage of Africans and Native Americans was facilitated by the disproportionate numbers of African male slaves to females (3 to 1) and the decimation of Native American males by disease, enslavement, and prolonged war against the colonists.

By the late years of the seventeenth century, caravans of Indian slaves were making their way from the Carolina backcountry to forts on the coast just as caravans of African slaves were doing on the African continent. Once in Charleston, the captives were loaded on ships for the "middle passage" to the West Indies or other colonies such as New Amsterdam or New England.15 Many of the Indian slaves were kept at home and worked on the plantations of South Carolina; by 1708, the number of Indian slaves in the Carolinas was nearly half that of African slaves. 16
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
Sister Oshun, notice there isn't as nearly as much controversy over hair in the brother's discussion about hair style choices. Oh the brothers are over there, chattin' it up, and happily posting pictures of themselves looking and feeling stress free and worry free. Get into the Sista's Spot, and here we go with the drama, shame, and condemnation.


Africa/Black women suffer racial AND gender oppression. Hence the difference in behavior(how many brothers wear perms now a days?) We also live in a patriarchal society where a woman's value is based ore on her physical appearance.

quote:
I understand and can relate to both sides of the argument, however. And because I try to seek balance in a discussion, I'm not able to take one position over another. But I will make the observation that because it is socially acceptable for women to grow their hair at length, we carry the heaviest burden in terms of people expecting us to use our hair to make a political statement. Men have the choice to either keep their hair closely shaven or bald, and no one can readily determine or question the status of their consciousness (lucky them). A Black woman, on the other hand, gets a perm, and BAM!, she's an ignorant sellout. Later on, she decides to sport a fro, and WHAMO! she's credited for being pro-Black. It seems to me that women tend to be their own worst enemies.[QUOTE]

Who said a woman is a sellout for having a perm? If anything Rowe has elaquantly stated, and I agree with, the PRESSURE on a African/Black woman to change her hair phenotype to fit in with the western beauty standard is GREATER... and some succumb. Nobody called a woman wearing a perm a sell-out, and nobody said that natural hair meant 'automatic consciousness'... In fact I said quite the opposite. If you would stop projecting, you may have realized you READ that.

[quote]~True, Rowe. 'Seems that way, doesn't it? And the very fact that it is a non-issue with the men, as well as with the native African woman speaks volumes. It shouldn't be an issue with African-American women, either.


I've been to Africa(four countries) In Africa hair and skin are a huge ISSUE. Colonialism and neo-colonialism/western/Amerikkkan imperialism are major issues. Bleaching and perming/weaving are issues... big issues.

quote:
And I have absolute faith that had Madame Walker never laid an eye on a stringy-haired white woman, she would have STILL been creative enough to develop a hair care system for us. We know no bounds when it comes to hair creations, be it during Ancient Egyptian times to this VERY DAY. White women as muse and sole inspiration waaaaaaaaay back THEN or NOW for our creativity? Please! nono Whoever wants to own that untruth is free to do so, though. *shudder* But, they need to get a clue.~


Please give ONE example before colonialism(Arab and/or European) and slavery where African women in any society straightened their hair and added Asian hair to their head coincidentally with the outcome looking like Europeans and Arabs THAT THEY NEVER HAD CONTACT WITH.

I wouldn't be surprised if Maddame CJ walker would have came up with a hair care system like so many of the traditional herbalists from Africa have... But it's goal wouldn't have been to straighten and de-Africanize the hair.

You denial is astounding. You just aren't comfortable dealing with global white supremacy... and your comments about continental African women makes me wonder if you even understand it.



~Get off the "hair thing". You're being ridiculous. I won't give white supremacy the credit for my hair choice, so therefore I don't acknowledge white supremacy itself? It ONLY manifests itself on top of the head of black women in America? Get a clue, please. Focus on concrete manifestations of global white supremacy, will you? Are you afraid to tackle a REAL issue? Afraid to get your feet dirty in the REAL trenches? Afraid to get your own flowing swinging curly goldy locks dirty? What in the HELL is your obsession with something that you don't even share (BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, NO LESS!) with the MAJORITY of black American women? Cut your own long curly hair off if you want to set an example. Put up or shut up. Your hypocrisy is astounding!~
quote:
~Get off the "hair thing". You're being ridiculous. I won't give white supremacy the credit for my hair choice, so therefore I don't acknowledge white supremacy itself? It ONLY manifests itself on top of the head of black women in America? Get a clue, please. Focus on concrete manifestations of global white supremacy, will you? Are you afraid to tackle a REAL issue? Afraid to get your feet dirty in the REAL trenches? Afraid to get your own flowing swinging curly goldy locks dirty? What in the HELL is your obsession with something that you don't even share (BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, NO LESS!) with the MAJORITY of black American women? Cut your own long curly hair off if you want to set an example. Put up or shut up. Your hypocrisy is astounding!~


Maybe you should take your own advice. You are the one who posted here directly towards me... Remember you opened with Sister Oshun just a few minutes ago?... I was responding. YOU may want to start a thread about another more important subject. My posting history speaks for itself.

You really need to read these books ...

Breaking the Chains of Psychological Slavery by Na'im Akbar

The united independent compensatory code/system/concept by Neely Fuller

The Isis Papers: The Keys to the Colors (Paperback)
by Dr. Frances Cress Welsing

Destruction of Black Civilization : Great... by Chancellor Williams

Yurugu by Dr. Marimba Ani

"If you do not understand White Supremacy (Racism), what it is and how it works, everything else...will only confuse you." - Dr. Frances Cress Welsing

"White Supremacy" is a global system of domination against people of color. This system attacks people of color, particularly people of African descent, in the nine major areas of people's activity which are:

1. economics
2. education
3. entertainment
4. labor
5. law
6. politics
7. religion
8. sex
9. war

-Dr. Neely Fuller
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
You really need to read these books ...

Breaking the Chains of Psychological Slavery by Na'im Akbar

The united independent compensatory code/system/concept by Neely Fuller

The Isis Papers: The Keys to the Colors (Paperback)
by Dr. Frances Cress Welsing

Destruction of Black Civilization : Great... by Chancellor Williams

Yurugu by Dr. Marimba Ani

"If you do not understand White Supremacy (Racism), what it is and how it works, everything else...will only confuse you." - Dr. Frances Cress Welsing

"White Supremacy" is a global system of domination against people of color. This system attacks people of color, particularly people of African descent, in the nine major areas of people's activity which are:

1. economics
2. education
3. entertainment
4. labor
5. law
6. politics
7. religion
8. sex
9. war

-Dr. Neely Fuller



~You really need to focus on something you can DO about global white supremacy. Again, who the hell cares to THIS EXTENT about the hair of black women in AMERICA. Can you be MORE ridiculous? READ BOOKS on the trivial subject???!!! Not on your life, dear. And you should get one.~
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
~You really need to focus on something you can DO about global white supremacy. Again, who the hell cares to THIS EXTENT about the hair of black women in AMERICA. Can you be MORE ridiculous? READ BOOKS on the trivial subject???!!! Not on your life, dear. And you should get one.~


quote:
~Get off the "hair thing". You're being ridiculous. I won't give white supremacy the credit for my hair choice, so therefore I don't acknowledge white supremacy itself? It ONLY manifests itself on top of the head of black women in America? Get a clue, please. Focus on concrete manifestations of global white supremacy, will you? Are you afraid to tackle a REAL issue? Afraid to get your feet dirty in the REAL trenches? Afraid to get your own flowing swinging curly goldy locks dirty? What in the HELL is your obsession with something that you don't even share (BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, NO LESS!) with the MAJORITY of black American women? Cut your own long curly hair off if you want to set an example. Put up or shut up. Your hypocrisy is astounding!~


Maybe you should take your own advice. You are the one who posted here directly towards me... Remember you opened with 'Sister Oshun' just a few minutes ago?... I was responding. YOU may want to start a thread about another more important subject. My posting history speaks for itself.

You STILL really need to read these books ...

Breaking the Chains of Psychological Slavery by Na'im Akbar

The united independent compensatory code/system/concept by Neely Fuller

The Isis Papers: The Keys to the Colors (Paperback)
by Dr. Frances Cress Welsing

Destruction of Black Civilization : Great... by Chancellor Williams

Yurugu by Dr. Marimba Ani

"If you do not understand White Supremacy (Racism), what it is and how it works, everything else...will only confuse you." - Dr. Frances Cress Welsing

"White Supremacy" is a global system of domination against people of color. This system attacks people of color, particularly people of African descent, in the nine major areas of people's activity which are:

1. economics
2. education
3. entertainment
4. labor
5. law
6. politics
7. religion
8. sex
9. war

-Dr. Neely Fuller


Before you can solve a problem, you must thoroughly understand it... Which you don't.
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
~Get off the "hair thing". You're being ridiculous. I won't give white supremacy the credit for my hair choice, so therefore I don't acknowledge white supremacy itself? It ONLY manifests itself on top of the head of black women in America? Get a clue, please. Focus on concrete manifestations of global white supremacy, will you? Are you afraid to tackle a REAL issue? Afraid to get your feet dirty in the REAL trenches? Afraid to get your own flowing swinging curly goldy locks dirty? What in the HELL is your obsession with something that you don't even share (BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, NO LESS!) with the MAJORITY of black American women? Cut your own long curly hair off if you want to set an example. Put up or shut up. Your hypocrisy is astounding!~


Maybe you should take your own advice. You are the one who posted here directly towards me... Remember you opened with Sister Oshun just a few minutes ago?... I was responding. YOU may want to start a thread about another more important subject. My posting history speaks for itself.

You really need to read these books ...

Breaking the Chains of Psychological Slavery by Na'im Akbar

The united independent compensatory code/system/concept by Neely Fuller

The Isis Papers: The Keys to the Colors (Paperback)
by Dr. Frances Cress Welsing

Destruction of Black Civilization : Great... by Chancellor Williams

Yurugu by Dr. Marimba Ani

"If you do not understand White Supremacy (Racism), what it is and how it works, everything else...will only confuse you." - Dr. Frances Cress Welsing

"White Supremacy" is a global system of domination against people of color. This system attacks people of color, particularly people of African descent, in the nine major areas of people's activity which are:

1. economics
2. education
3. entertainment
4. labor
5. law
6. politics
7. religion
8. sex
9. war

-Dr. Neely Fuller



~WRONG. I did NOT post to you. ROWE addressed you in her post which I referenced and posted in response to ROWE's post. Oh how, oh how did you MISS your oportunity to respond to HER THEN?

YOU have been (supposedly) done with the subject a couple of times now, but, no, you're rabidly obsessed. Intent on what? Getting me to change my mind about my hair? Fuggetaboutit, Curly-Locks. And I wouldn't be caught dead reading anything about something as ridiculous as "White Supremacy and the Black Woman's Hair." Is THAT the reason women aren't taken as seriously in politics as they can and should be? Because of the silly amongst us doing us a disservice by obsessing over the trivial and calling it intellectual conversation?~
My bad. I missed Rowe's post, and your posting style(where 'originally posted by' was left out) confused me. Rowe is my girl and I always try to respond.

Thanks to Rowe on another more interesting thread... I forgot about this book.


The central objective in decolonising the African mind is to overthrow the authority which alien traditions exercise over the African. This demands the dismantling of white supremacist beliefs, and the structures which uphold them, in every area of African life. It must be stressed, however, that decolonisation does not mean ignorance of foreign traditions; it simply means denial of their authority and withdrawal of allegiance from them.
- Chinweizu(Decolonizing The African Mind)

You may find the thread interesting...

Dr. Marimba Ani: Hypocrisy as a way of life - Rowe
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
My bad. I missed Rowe's post, and your posting style(where 'originally posted by' was left out) confused me. Rowe is my girl and I always try to respond.

Thanks to Rowe on another more interesting thread... I forgot about this book.


The central objective in decolonising the African mind is to overthrow the authority which alien traditions exercise over the African. This demands the dismantling of white supremacist beliefs, and the structures which uphold them, in every area of African life. It must be stressed, however, that decolonisation does not mean ignorance of foreign traditions; it simply means denial of their authority and withdrawal of allegiance from them.
- Chinweizu(Decolonizing The African Mind)

You may find the thread interesting...

Dr. Marimba Ani: Hypocrisy as a way of life - Rowe



~I seriously doubt it. Anything recommended by you is highly suspect, imo. This author you mention actually addresses my hair? SMDH. And she's to be taken seriously because....? And you're to be taken seriously for the same reason because.....?

And I didn't need to insert an "originally posted by" when I addressed Rowe, by name in my response. I addressed BY NAME the person who wrote it, get it? But you missed that the same way you missed the entire original post from her, huh? That's understandable. You did throw up the flag and leave the thread, afterall, due to....bad nerves, or some such claim.~
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
~I seriously doubt it. Anything recommended by you is highly suspect, imo. This author you mention actually addresses my hair? SMDH. And she's to be taken seriously because....? And you're to be taken seriously for the same reason because.....?


You are personalizing this WAY too much... which is telling. these books explain white supremacy in ALL it's mechanisms. This thread is about hair darling. Hence that is what was discussed. Nobody was talking about your hair.

quote:
And I didn't need to insert an "originally posted by" when I addressed Rowe, by name in my response. I addressed BY NAME the person who wrote it, get it? But you missed that the same way you missed the entire original post from her, huh? That's understandable. You did throw up the flag and leave the thread, afterall, due to....bad nerves, or some such claim.~


My bad again, honestly I only have skimmed some of your post, so therefore, when the QUOTE function isn't used, as it is by everyone else... It throws me off. Also, I OFTEN miss posts. I'm not omniscient/omnipotent; I'm human. Everyone does that. Roll Eyes

I do get frustrated when folks deny the essence of reality, but I notice by some of your comments that you (a) Kinda just like to argue for arguments sake (b) Don't fully understand global white supremacy.. So you no longer frustrate me. I thought you needed more information. I come here to learn and share. I forget that others have different motivations.

The thread I posted was started by someone else, and I have had minimal commentary on it. But as they say... you can only lead a horse to water... Roll Eyes

I do realize that many who are not comfortable being self critical have hostile reactions when the mechanisms of global white supremacy are discussed, especially if it points out possible personal contradictions.

Truth is sometimes bitter -Nigerian(Yoruba proverb)
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
~I seriously doubt it. Anything recommended by you is highly suspect, imo. This author you mention actually addresses my hair? SMDH. And she's to be taken seriously because....? And you're to be taken seriously for the same reason because.....?


You are personalizing this WAY too much... which is telling. these books explain white supremacy in ALL it's mechanisms. This thread is about hair darling. Hence that is what was discussed. Nobody was talking about your hair.

quote:
And I didn't need to insert an "originally posted by" when I addressed Rowe, by name in my response. I addressed BY NAME the person who wrote it, get it? But you missed that the same way you missed the entire original post from her, huh? That's understandable. You did throw up the flag and leave the thread, afterall, due to....bad nerves, or some such claim.~


My bad again, honestly I only have skimmed some of your post, so therefore, when the QUOTE function isn't used, as it is by everyone else... It throws me off. Also, I OFTEN miss posts. I'm not omniscient/omnipotent; I'm human. Everyone does that. Roll Eyes

I do get frustrated when folks deny the essence of reality, but I notice by some of your comments that you (a) Kinda just like to argue for arguments sake (b) Don't fully understand global white supremacy.. So you no longer frustrate me. I thought you needed more information. I come here to learn and share. I forget that others have different motivations.

The thread I posted was started by someone else, and I have had minimal commentary on it. But as they say... you can only lead a horse to water... Roll Eyes

I do realize that many who are not comfortable being self critical have hostile reactions when the mechanisms of global white supremacy are discussed, especially if it points out possible personal contradictions.

Truth is sometimes bitter -Nigerian(Yoruba proverb)



~If global white supremacy is pointing out any personal contradictions here, it is in your own mirror, hon. A light-skinned woman with long curly hair trying to convince ANYONE that their own hair isn't African enough or politically correct is CONTRADICTORY and HYPOCRITICAL. Cut your own hair off and take another picture (and don't forget the smile), and post it again and THEN we can talk PC hair, 'kay? Until then, I couldn't care less what a hypocrite has to say on the subject of any black woman's hair, let alone my own.

What my "personalizing" tells you is that I am not a weakminded person that you are going to be able to convince that something is wrong with her "politics". I don't know whom your hypocritical mojo has worked on in the past, but you can stop addressing me with the crap. If the books you recommend elaborate on white supremacy and all its mechanisms, fine. What's ridiculous is how you pick THIS ONE mechanism to fixate on, when you aren't physically capable of even RELATING to it on any REAL level!!! Again, cut off your golden flowing curls, then we'll talk about the effects of white supremacy as it relates to this Hair Snob topic, darling.

YOU don't fully understand the effects of global white supremacy if as serious and elaborate as you can get about the subject of it is to go on and on about the black woman's hair. No, I don't need ANY information about "White Supremacy and the Black Woman's Hair", let alone "MORE information", so spare me, and don't waste your own time on it. Don't present an arguable point and expect that it won't get argued for argument's sake. I don't know who has let you get away with that, but I ain't the one. If the arguing is still messing with your nerves, then you know what to do about it again.

Why comment on the other thread (Hypocrisy) only "minimally? Can't quite bring the topic around to hair or sexual preferences over there yet? Aaaawww. Keep trying, dear. But, please, do elaborate on some or all of the other manifestations of global white supremacy. Why do you hold back? This hair thing is your forte', huh? You're so limited.~
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
~I seriously doubt it. Anything recommended by you is highly suspect, imo. This author you mention actually addresses my hair? SMDH. And she's to be taken seriously because....? And you're to be taken seriously for the same reason because.....?


You are personalizing this WAY too much... which is telling. these books explain white supremacy in ALL it's mechanisms. This thread is about hair darling. Hence that is what was discussed. Nobody was talking about your hair.

quote:
And I didn't need to insert an "originally posted by" when I addressed Rowe, by name in my response. I addressed BY NAME the person who wrote it, get it? But you missed that the same way you missed the entire original post from her, huh? That's understandable. You did throw up the flag and leave the thread, afterall, due to....bad nerves, or some such claim.~


My bad again, honestly I only have skimmed some of your post, so therefore, when the QUOTE function isn't used, as it is by everyone else... It throws me off. Also, I OFTEN miss posts. I'm not omniscient/omnipotent; I'm human. Everyone does that. Roll Eyes

I do get frustrated when folks deny the essence of reality, but I notice by some of your comments that you (a) Kinda just like to argue for arguments sake (b) Don't fully understand global white supremacy.. So you no longer frustrate me. I thought you needed more information. I come here to learn and share. I forget that others have different motivations.

The thread I posted was started by someone else, and I have had minimal commentary on it. But as they say... you can only lead a horse to water... Roll Eyes

I do realize that many who are not comfortable being self critical have hostile reactions when the mechanisms of global white supremacy are discussed, especially if it points out possible personal contradictions.

Truth is sometimes bitter -Nigerian(Yoruba proverb)



~If global white supremacy is pointing out any personal contradictions here, it is in your own mirror, hon. A light-skinned woman with long curly hair trying to convince ANYONE that their own hair isn't African enough or politically correct is CONTRADICTORY and HYPOCRITICAL. Cut your own hair off and take another picture (and don't forget the smile), and post it again and THEN we can talk PC hair, 'kay? Until then, I couldn't care less what a hypocrite has to say on the subject of any black woman's hair, let alone my own.

What my "personalizing" tells you is that I am not a weakminded person that you are going to be able to convince that something is wrong with her "politics". I don't know whom your hypocritical mojo has worked on in the past, but you can stop addressing me with the crap. If the books you recommend elaborate on white supremacy and all its mechanisms, fine. What's ridiculous is how you pick THIS ONE mechanism to fixate on, when you aren't physically capable of even RELATING to it on any REAL level!!! Again, cut off your golden flowing curls, then we'll talk about the effects of white supremacy as it relates to this Hair Snob topic, darling.

YOU don't fully understand the effects of global white supremacy if as serious and elaborate as you can get about the subject of it is to go on and on about the black woman's hair. No, I don't need ANY information about "White Supremacy and the Black Woman's Hair", let alone "MORE information", so spare me, and don't waste your own time on it. Don't present an arguable point and expect that it won't get argued for argument's sake. I don't know who has let you get away with that, but I ain't the one. If the arguing is still messing with your nerves, then you know what to do about it again.

Why comment on the other thread (Hypocrisy) only "minimally? Can't quite bring the topic around to hair over there yet? Aaaawww. Keep trying, dear. But, please, do elaborate on some or all of the other manifestations of global white supremacy. Why do you hold back? This hair thing is your forte', huh? You're so limited.~


That's it, let out that demon. That self criticism is seen as poison by some, but it's really medicine. I've seen it time and time again. Folks writhe and twist and foam at the mouth rather than partake in self introspection. Even when they were never directly asked to do so... It's just that the ISSUE makes it a possibility.

I can understand how it wouldn't be comfortable that I am talking about this issue. But my understanding of it comes from empathy. Empathy of what my darker African Bantu phenotyped sisters face. Of course, since you are personalizing this as an attack on your perm, it would be hard for you to recognize this. I stated my opinion long before you mentioned your hairstyle hun. Get over yourself.

I never argue for arguments sake, but thanks for letting me know that's what you came here for. I'll avoid conversing with you in the future. Since you rarely post in subjects I find of interest. It won't be difficult.

BTW, I commented at length on the other thread. You just 'missed it'.... hat
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quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
yeah

This is a general question...

Why is discussing or rather mentioning the foundational issues when it aplies to the subject of the thread labelled as being 'judgemental' or 'divisive'?

Is it that people can't handle the truth?


Sister Oshun, girl, now I know you're not talking, because I've seen your hair. You don't have those tight, sister-girl curls like most Black women do. So the transition may not have been as traumatic for you as may have been for us. You're hair is almost straight! But let us consider the sister who has that strong, tightly-curled, and glorious crown of Mother Africa hair, ok. That is another matter entirely. You try tell that sister that she needs to leave the relaxer alone, and you're likely to get a mouthful.Big Grin



I must say that Oshun is one of the rare lighter hued sisters that "get it" she doesn't degrade or deny her own unique beauty to "get it", nor does she deny anyone else's pain to "get it" .... I admire her tremendously for that..... as we exist in a sea of women in denial.....

she is quite balanced and extraordinarily empathetic....

her loose curl and societies acceptance of her "look" hasn't blinded her to the realities of the dark skinned kinky haired women.... (in fact it was her who helped me with the correct phenotypical term of "bantu")..... a true statement to her love for her people....


but her loose curl and empathetic ability is a separate issue from what I believe is her point...

which still has not been addressed.... I feel it is a valid one..

terms such as "judgemental" and "divisive" are often thrown at those who simply point out the foundation of someone's inability to deal with colorism and its effects on us all.....

and wondering if it is just a matter of others not being able to deal with the reality of the situation....
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
~I seriously doubt it. Anything recommended by you is highly suspect, imo. This author you mention actually addresses my hair? SMDH. And she's to be taken seriously because....? And you're to be taken seriously for the same reason because.....?


You are personalizing this WAY too much... which is telling. these books explain white supremacy in ALL it's mechanisms. This thread is about hair darling. Hence that is what was discussed. Nobody was talking about your hair.

quote:
And I didn't need to insert an "originally posted by" when I addressed Rowe, by name in my response. I addressed BY NAME the person who wrote it, get it? But you missed that the same way you missed the entire original post from her, huh? That's understandable. You did throw up the flag and leave the thread, afterall, due to....bad nerves, or some such claim.~


My bad again, honestly I only have skimmed some of your post, so therefore, when the QUOTE function isn't used, as it is by everyone else... It throws me off. Also, I OFTEN miss posts. I'm not omniscient/omnipotent; I'm human. Everyone does that. Roll Eyes

I do get frustrated when folks deny the essence of reality, but I notice by some of your comments that you (a) Kinda just like to argue for arguments sake (b) Don't fully understand global white supremacy.. So you no longer frustrate me. I thought you needed more information. I come here to learn and share. I forget that others have different motivations.

The thread I posted was started by someone else, and I have had minimal commentary on it. But as they say... you can only lead a horse to water... Roll Eyes

I do realize that many who are not comfortable being self critical have hostile reactions when the mechanisms of global white supremacy are discussed, especially if it points out possible personal contradictions.

Truth is sometimes bitter -Nigerian(Yoruba proverb)



~If global white supremacy is pointing out any personal contradictions here, it is in your own mirror, hon. A light-skinned woman with long curly hair trying to convince ANYONE that their own hair isn't African enough or politically correct is CONTRADICTORY and HYPOCRITICAL. Cut your own hair off and take another picture (and don't forget the smile), and post it again and THEN we can talk PC hair, 'kay? Until then, I couldn't care less what a hypocrite has to say on the subject of any black woman's hair, let alone my own.

What my "personalizing" tells you is that I am not a weakminded person that you are going to be able to convince that something is wrong with her "politics". I don't know whom your hypocritical mojo has worked on in the past, but you can stop addressing me with the crap. If the books you recommend elaborate on white supremacy and all its mechanisms, fine. What's ridiculous is how you pick THIS ONE mechanism to fixate on, when you aren't physically capable of even RELATING to it on any REAL level!!! Again, cut off your golden flowing curls, then we'll talk about the effects of white supremacy as it relates to this Hair Snob topic, darling.

YOU don't fully understand the effects of global white supremacy if as serious and elaborate as you can get about the subject of it is to go on and on about the black woman's hair. No, I don't need ANY information about "White Supremacy and the Black Woman's Hair", let alone "MORE information", so spare me, and don't waste your own time on it. Don't present an arguable point and expect that it won't get argued for argument's sake. I don't know who has let you get away with that, but I ain't the one. If the arguing is still messing with your nerves, then you know what to do about it again.

Why comment on the other thread (Hypocrisy) only "minimally? Can't quite bring the topic around to hair over there yet? Aaaawww. Keep trying, dear. But, please, do elaborate on some or all of the other manifestations of global white supremacy. Why do you hold back? This hair thing is your forte', huh? You're so limited.~


That's it, let out that demon. That self criticism is seen as poison by some, but it's really medicine. I've seen it time and time again. Folks writhe and twist and foam at the mouth rather than partake in self introspection. Even when they were never directly asked to do so... It's just that the ISSUE makes it a possibility.

I can understand how it wouldn't be comfortable that I am talking about this issue. But my understanding of it comes from empathy. Empathy of what my darker African Bantu phenotyped sisters face. Of course, since you are personalizing this as an attack on your perm, it would be hard for you to recognize this. I stated my opinion long before you mentioned your hairstyle hun. Get over yourself.

BTW, I commented at length on the other thread. You just 'missed it'.... hat


~No, it's hard to recognize the empathy because it's not there, shug. If you TRULY empathized with a personal struggle that your bantu sister is having with removing her hair you wouldn't be in her face swinging your own. But, you don't get that, apparently. It's an attack on my perm because I happen to HAVE ONE, therefore I am in the express position to argue the point. Your attempt to belittle my point by repeatedly accusing me of "personalizing" is weak. I argue the point because I CAN. You argue your point because....? That's the disconnect for me, dear. You sit there with your "white washed" looks and have the audacity to criticize and judge black women and render them not worthy of friendship, political conversation, etc. because they won't give up what you aren't even willing to give up? Remove all visible traces of white supremacy from your own looks, the traces that you are just as able to do something about as black women with perms are able to do. Until you're willing to do that, your talk of empathy is a big JOKE, at best, and a big LIE, at worst, hon.~
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
~No, it's hard to recognize the empathy because it's not there, shug. If you TRULY empathized with a personal struggle that your bantu sister is having with removing her hair you wouldn't be in her face swinging your own. But, you don't get that, apparently.


Yah, I did that over the internet. 17 lol
Are you serious? Just because I don't empathize with your unnecessary personalization of a societal issue... doesn't mean I don't empathize with the masses about their/our struggle(s).

BTW I don't have empathy for you because you deny the essence of reality(the social context). I have very few issues with other sisters on the board, or in life.

quote:
It's an attack on my perm because I happen to HAVE ONE, therefore I am in the express position to argue the point. Your attempt to belittle my point by repeatedly accusing me of "personalizing" is weak. I argue the point because I CAN.


Let me get this straight, you admit personalizing it because you are defending your perm, and then say it's 'weak' for me to 'accuse you' of doing what you admit to; personalizing it because you as an individual have a perm... Ok, that's logical. 17

quote:
You argue your point because....? That's the disconnect for me, dear.


I argue my point because I care about something greater than myself and my own personal, self centered, individual interests. The betterment of African/Black people everywhere is primary, and the majority phenotype is disrespected in this society and globally, particularly when it comes to women because of gender oppression. This disrespect often becomes internalized. I argue 'the point' of always being aware how white supremacy is the societal context, and how that may effect our actions in all areas, including this one, because we do not always see how it permeates society. It's called 'the bigger picture'. Can you see beyond your own narrow self interests?

quote:
You sit there with your "white washed" looks and have the audacity to criticize and judge black women and render them not worthy of friendship, political conversation, etc. because they won't give up what you aren't even willing to give up? Remove all visible traces of white supremacy from your own looks, the traces that you are just as able to do something about as black women with perms are able to do.


Uhhmmm... I can't change my genes. My looks are natural. I have cut off my hair in the past, and will probably do it again... it grows back. I have and do wear braids and head wraps. This all has nothing to do with the societal reality of white supremacy and it's effects on the beauty standard... but you know that. That straw man argument is popular...

quote:
Until you're willing to do that, your talk of empathy is a big JOKE, at best, and a big LIE, at worst, hon.~


WTF am I supposed to do, a reverse Michael Jackson? lol I'm comfortable with my looks. But I'm not comfortable with the racism, colourism, and oppression of my people; and in particular, of my sisters. I'm also not going to pretend that 'personal' preferences are completely independent of societal pressures; particularly when those 'personal preferences' seem to oh so conveniently fall in line with the societal pressures that are anti-African... Not to mention that the majority just so happen to also display the same anti-African 'personal preference'.

Your anger is misdirected towards me because I am pointing out the contradictions in society that make you question your perm. It would be pro-active, rather than re-active if you directed that anger at the oppression of the racist society we live in.

How about attacking the message instead of the messenger, or is it that you don't have a leg to stand on? Maybe, you just like to have the last word, no matter how illogical and irrelevant. Yah, I think that's it. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:


How about attacking the message instead of the messenger, or is it that you don't have a leg to stand on? Maybe, you just like to have the last word, no matter how illogical and irrelevant. Yah, I think that's it. Roll Eyes


~And exacty what message would that be, GoldenCurlyLocks? A two-faced message? A double-standard message? A do-as-I-say-not-what-I-do message? I'm arguing the message with the messenger because you have nothing substantial to stand on as I see it. White supremacy exists. Stop pretending that I'm denying that. You do NOT have white supremacy to stand your argument upon. It's entirely too flimsy. I have no idea what the "strawman" thing is, but if it has anything to do with cleverly avoiding valid counterpoints, you're It.

Valid counter point No. 1:

Do you acknowledge the possibility that a black woman who straightens her hair because she admires the look on women PERIOD, or does this HAVE to be about the white woman? Could she aspire to have hair like Native American Indian women...the women who are more likely than not in her ancestry just as much as the white man is?

Valid Counter point No. 2:

Do you think that the men who aren't as attracted to women with short cuts, afros, feel this way because it's too much like their own hair, and therefore less feminine to them? Do you think that black women aren't fond of those cuts for the same reason, that being it resembles their man's hair too much?

Valid Counter point No. 3:

When physcially ill women (for instance, cancer patients) get distraught and devastated over the process of losing their hair and going bald, are they distraught because they have the same issues regarding hair that you attribute to black women, that being not enough pride in their heritage? I've seen every race of woman go through this process and it's a horrid experience for them. Is this indicative of racial pride issues, or could this be simply about not feeling pretty and feminine anymore? If it's about the latter when it comes to every other race of woman, why can't it be about that for black women who are hesitant to see their hair go?

Valid Point No. 4:

Are NATIVE African women just as guilty of Political InCorrectness when they straighten their hair?


Valid Counter Point No. 5:

Can the black woman who straightens her hair get a "pardon" if she does as you do, that being cutting her hair off "sometimes" or wearing a scarf now and then?


Valid Counter Point No. 6:

If we'd never laid eyes on women with straight hair, do you doubt that we would have discovered methods of straightening our hair. I mean, it's no giant leap of experimentation. It surely would have come about of our own accord with or without outside influence, like so many other things were discovered, invented, etc.. Would the straight hairstyle have been an okay thing to do in that case, or still somehow wrong? have you ever been to or heard of a Black Hair show? Trust, we don't need help in the hair creativity arena and MOST of the styles that black women wear are NOTHING like the styles that white women wear. Again, I'll point to another avatar of Rowe's. The women with the long red "braids" going down their backs. Is it weave? If so, did African-American women influence them? What about the red ochre and animal fat that they use on their hair and skin? Do they have deep-seated white supremacy issues with trying to be Unblack, or can we just attribute this to their creativity? Shouldn't they be cutting their hair off like other African women? Is it a slap in the face of politics when they don't cut it off?


Do you see "cosmetic" issues involved in politics where men are concerned?...where other races are concerned? There are sometimes some sexual preference issues involved with politics. There sometimes some ethnicity discrimination issues involved with politics. There are sometimes some gender issues involved with politics. But....the straightening comb?....I don't buy it.~

If we all donned afros, braids, and locs tomorrow, what would really change about our black community situation? More jobs? Our marriage rate would go up? The high school dropout rate for our son's would go down? Their would be less incarcerations? Less black on black crime? The aids infection rate among our women would go down? Children born out of wed-lock would cease? The rate of black men dating interracially would go down? Plainly put, HOW EXACTLY DOES THE BLACK WOMAN'S HAIR APPLY TO OUR COMMUNITY ILLS politically speaking or otherwise?

We black women are our own worst enemy. As if we don't have ENOUGH going on, we have to contend with each other over basic respect issues. I've said this before, though not on this disccussion board, but I believe that for all the talk of sisterhood, and sista this and sista that, what I've come to believe WHOLEHEARTEDLY is that black women ACTUALLY can not stand each other. No matter what's being shown on the surface, on the REAL, sisterhood is not there. And if we can't find a REAL reason to hate each other, we'll make one up. What's the quickest way to get a conviction for a black woman in a court of law? Give her an all black woman jury. Tried, tested, and true.

If you have a "system of hair logic" for determining whether or not a "sista" is worthy of of political convo, respect, friendship, go for it. I disagree with your "analytical" method of discernment. We can agree to disagree because the arguing is pointless. There's no way in hell I'll come around to your way of thinking, and I'm sure your mind is just as made up on your end. Do you. I'll do me.~
Wow, nice debate. Who knew that hair was so deep?

This point is interesting ==>
quote:
Valid Counter point No. 2:

Do you think that the men who aren't as attracted to women with short cuts, afros, feel this way because it's too much like their own hair, and therefore less feminine to them? Do you think that black women aren't fond of those cuts for the same reason, that being it resembles their man's hair too much?
I've never thought of this.

Still keeping my locs though. 4
As always i enjoy reading the vibrant exchange of ideas within the sista spot and try not to add my 2 cent out of respect for the space and am sticking to that in this situation... however i do think it is important to share information and different layers or textures to a conversation when possible... so i offer a piece i recently read on Farai Chideya's pop and politics site...

http://www.popandpolitics.com/2007/11/13/my-hair-my-self/
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:


How about attacking the message instead of the messenger, or is it that you don't have a leg to stand on? Maybe, you just like to have the last word, no matter how illogical and irrelevant. Yah, I think that's it. Roll Eyes


~And exacty what message would that be, GoldenCurlyLocks? A two-faced message? A double-standard message? A do-as-I-say-not-what-I-do message? I'm arguing the message with the messenger because you have nothing substantial to stand on as I see it.


Golden curly locks... I dont think so, my hair is very dark brown, almost black. Now it wouldn't be very nice or relevent for me to call you "fried, dyed, and laid to the side" would it?

quote:
White supremacy exists.


Yes, and effects the beauty standard that women(in particular because of gender oppression) are expected to live up to by the greater society, and it also gets internalized.

quote:
Stop pretending that I'm denying that.


You have repeatedly denied, excused, and danced around it's effects on the 'hair issue' and that it exists as a social context.

quote:
You do NOT have white supremacy to stand your argument upon. It's entirely too flimsy. I have no idea what the "strawman" thing is, but if it has anything to do with cleverly avoiding valid counterpoints, you're It.


You haven't given any valid counterpoints, just a bunch of defensive remarks to validate what you percieve as your 'personal choice'(somehow made in a vaccum devoid of societal conditions) to wear a perm, and a load of irrelevent(and not very creative or accurate) personal attacks.

quote:
Valid counter point No. 1:

Do you acknowledge the possibility that a black woman who straightens her hair because she admires the look on women PERIOD, or does this HAVE to be about the white woman? Could she aspire to have hair like Native American Indian women...the women who are more likely than not in her ancestry just as much as the white man is?


I already adressed this; why are you pretending like I didn't?. I'll re-quote my responses for you.

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Ok, you are missing the social context(colour caste system). We live in a majority European/white country, we live in a world where the European beauty standard is in effect for EVERYONE because of cultural(and physical, economic and political)imperialism...

The whole 'Indian' thing is aspiring to be less African. You see, in the global caste system European/White is at the top(with the Blonde haired/Blue eyes Northern European look holding the highest position), and African/Black is at the bottom(With dark skin and Bantu features holding the lowest position)... The other non-white people occupy varying positions in the caste system based on their approximation to the Northern European phenotype or the African/Bantu phenotype. So all the claiming of Indian heritage thing is an attempt at escape of the bottom of the colour caste system. It's still self hatred. It's also still hatred of the Bantu/African phenotype to chemically straighten hair that is not NATURALLY straight. White people dominate this globe currently(by force), every ethnic group has within it people who try to make themselves appear 'less their own ethnicity', or convercly 'more white'. These things were not done prior to Aryan/European domination and influence. Asians get eye surgeries. Indians from India use bleaching creams and wear coloured contact lenses... The list goes on and on.


Also, are you gonna tell me that the majority of African women on earth who perm their hair, have "Indian" heritage they aspire to "represent" by changing their natural phenotype... and that's supposed to be 'ok'... Give me a break.

quote:
Valid Counter point No. 2:

Do you think that the men who aren't as attracted to women with short cuts, afros, feel this way because it's too much like their own hair, and therefore less feminine to them? Do you think that black women aren't fond of those cuts for the same reason, that being it resembles their man's hair too much?


Also already adressed, I see you like to 'pretend'...

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Why is long hair 'feminine' to African women(or men) when, because of hair texture, unless it is locked, African hair isn't typically very long? Who and what set the standard of femininity being 'long hair'?

This is still the Euro beauty standard in effect. With the Euro female being the epitomy of 'femininity'. Why would an ethnic group of people aspire to a feminine ideal that does not naturally occur in the majority of it's population?

...You still aren't dealing with the root of why should the guys mind an Afro? It's the 'normal' hairstyle before slavery and colonialism? Should their attitude be corrected rather than catered too?...

You still haven't explained how the natural growth of an Afro became 'boyish' in African society... It used to be the norm no(and Afro or close cropped braid styles)? What events took place to change the norm into 'boyish'?

Africa/Black women suffer racial AND gender oppression. Hence the difference in behavior(how many brothers wear perms now a days?) We also live in a patriarchal society where a woman's value is based more on her physical appearance(and it's proximity to the Euro standard).


In Africa prior to colinization and slavery, men did not see afros or short hair on African women as 'too much like theirs', because African women's hair was/is like theirs. Men also wore braids themselves. This 'long hair is feminine' ideal was not our paradigm/standard. So how did the change in standard occur? When someone elses standard(read foregn invaders) of what is feminine and masculine in appearance(and other areas I might add) was imposed, on us by force... that's how.

quote:
Valid Counter point No. 3:

When physcially ill women (for instance, cancer patients) get distraught and devastated over the process of losing their hair and going bald, are they distraught because they have the same issues regarding hair that you attribute to black women, that being not enough pride in their heritage? I've seen every race of woman go through this process and it's a horrid experience for them. Is this indicative of racial pride issues, or could this be simply about not feeling pretty and feminine anymore? If it's about the latter when it comes to every other race of woman, why can't it be about that for black women who are hesitant to see their hair go?


Your 'cancer' example is mixing apples and oranges. Nobody is promoting 'baldness' for African or any women. I'll repost other points for clarity...

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Why is long hair 'feminine' to African women(or men) when, because of hair texture, unless it is locked, African hair isn't typically very long? Who and what set the standard of femininity being 'long hair'?

This is still the Euro beauty standard in effect. With the Euro female being the epitomy of 'femininity'. Why would an ethnic group of people aspire to a feminine ideal that does not naturally occur in the majority of it's population?...

Their(read non-African) hair groes naturally long and straight, but that is 'their' hair, not ours...


Loss of hair to the point of baldness because of health reasons would be tragic for anyone, male or female, to compare that to the stadards of beauty imposed on populations where that look does not naturally occur in the majority is disingenuous to say the least.

quote:
Valid Point No. 4:

Are NATIVE African women just as guilty of Political InCorrectness when they straighten their hair?


I never said any African, born anywhere in the diaspora was 'politically incorrect' for wearing a perm, but their level of consciousness about global white supremacy is suspect, as well as their ability to stand in defiance of it(not that these are an indication of any moral fault). I see them as victims. THIS HAS BEEN DONE TO US. What don't you understand about that? White surpemacy has caused an unconscious internalization of the Euro-beauty standard GLOBALLY by non-Europeans. I already adressed this so-called counterpoint too, very recently I might add, RIF...

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
I've been to Africa(four countries) In Africa hair and skin are a huge ISSUE. Colonialism and neo-colonialism/western/Amerikkkan imperialism are major issues, particularly when it comes to women. Bleaching and perming/weaving are issues... big issues. To discourage it in Ghana they do not allow the school girls to perm their hair until they graduate form 4(what we would refer to as high school). Arab and European imperialism has caused many of the same issues there that exist here, some are even worse. Women burn and ruin their skin, scaring themselves for life by bleaching so they can be lighter and therefore 'more beautiful'. Patriarchal white supremacy is GLOBAL.


The 'feminine ideal'(Euro beauty standard) imposed by outsiders, who had ILL INTENTIONS on the colonized and enslaved exists globally.

quote:
Valid Counter Point No. 5:

Can the black woman who straightens her hair get a "pardon" if she does as you do, that being cutting her hair off "sometimes" or wearing a scarf now and then?


That's just stupid. We aren't talking about personal 'pardons'. We are talking about the systemic effects of domination by someone(the oppressor) elses culture and their societal manifestations, wich are disfunctional. I know you want to make this a personal and individual conversation... but a systemic social issue can't be adressed that way. How about answering a question I posed long ago?

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Why would an ethnic group of people aspire to a feminine ideal that does not naturally occur in the majority of it's population?


quote:
Valid Counter Point No. 6:

If we'd never laid eyes on women with straight hair, do you doubt that we would have discovered methods of straightening our hair.


YES because there would be no urge(imposed by force) to change the natural phenotype.

quote:
I mean, it's no giant leap of experimentation. It surely would have come about of our own accord with or without outside influence, like so many other things were discovered, invented, etc.. Would the straight hairstyle have been an okay thing to do in that case, or still somehow wrong? have you ever been to or heard of a Black Hair show? Trust, we don't need help in the hair creativity arena and MOST of the styles that black women wear are NOTHING like the styles that white women wear. Again, I'll point to another avatar of Rowe's.


Once again, this has been adressed... and I suggest you be more specific about what 'counter point' you acutally claimed(which was ridiculous I might add)...

quote:
Originally posted by Black Butterfly:
And I have absolute faith that had Madame Walker never laid an eye on a stringy-haired white woman, she would have STILL been creative enough to develop a hair care system for us. We know no bounds when it comes to hair creations, be it during Ancient Egyptian times to this VERY DAY. White women as muse and sole inspiration waaaaaaaaay back THEN or NOW for our creativity? Please! Whoever wants to own that untruth is free to do so, though. *shudder* But, they need to get a clue.~


quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Please give ONE example before colonialism(Arab and/or European) and slavery where African women in any society straightened their hair and/or added Asian hair to their head coincidentally with the outcome looking like Europeans and Arabs THAT THEY NEVER HAD CONTACT WITH.


Since African history is thousands(really millions) of years old, if the 'straightenning' look was going to become popular outside of Euro-Arab imperialism/invasion... Why didn't it already occur? Maybe it was because we were comfortable with our phenotype? Your absolute (blind)faith in the ridiculous doesn't mean a thing in the face of absolute FACT. BTW, what you are suggesting is another denial of the effects and social reality of global white suprmacy. Please refrain from doing that if you don't want to be 'accused' of doing that.

ANd what about this aspect...

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Straightening hair is actually UNHEALTHY. Is it healthy and natural to use a chemical so harsh on our heads that it gives us chemical burns, just to have straight hair? Is it healthy to use a burning hot metal comb that scorches our hair and skin?


Why would the majority of a people put themselves throught this unhealthy(and painful) process just to change their racial phenotype? Is that an expression of 'self love' and 'racial/phenotypical pride'?

quote:
The women with the long red "braids" going down their backs. Is it weave? If so, did African-American women influence them? What about the red ochre and animal fat that they use on their hair and skin? Do they have deep-seated white supremacy issues with trying to be Unblack, or can we just attribute this to their creativity? Shouldn't they be cutting their hair off like other African women? Is it a slap in the face of politics when they don't cut it off?


Already been adressed.

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Why is long hair 'feminine' to African women(or men) when, because of hair texture, unless it is locked, African hair isn't typically very long? Who and what set the standard of femininity being 'long hair'?


Their hair is locked sweety. They never had to 'cut out a perm', and in no way are they mimicking the appearance of European or Arab phenotypes. Why are you giving such disingenous arguments? This is the STRAWMAN I was reffering to. It really makes you look silly and quite dishonest.

quote:
Do you see "cosmetic" issues involved in politics where men are concerned?...where other races are concerned? There are sometimes some sexual preference issues involved with politics. There sometimes some ethnicity discrimination issues involved with politics. There are sometimes some gender issues involved with politics. But....the straightening comb?....I don't buy it.~


I've adressed gender oppression and the worlwide colour caste system as well as class issues. You choose to pretend to think that the disrespect for the African phenotype isnt political, although it is a result of RACIAL oppression. You are free to remain dillusional.

quote:
If we all donned afros, braids, and locs tomorrow, what would really change about our black community situation? More jobs? Our marriage rate would go up? The high school dropout rate for our son's would go down? Their would be less incarcerations? Less black on black crime? The aids infection rate among our women would go down? Children born out of wed-lock would cease? The rate of black men dating interracially would go down? Plainly put, HOW EXACTLY DOES THE BLACK WOMAN'S HAIR APPLY TO OUR COMMUNITY ILLS politically speaking or otherwise?


Wow, no wonder you like Romulus so much... This is a HAIR ISSUE THREAD honey. All those issues mentioned have been discussed at length on other threads.(Theres that STAWMAN) I will say one thing. If the majority of African people did not express self hatred in all it's forms, and if women in particular rebelled against the foreign beauty standard imposed on us... We would have better self concepts and virtually wipe out the effects of the beauty standard and some of the gender effects of it on us.

Do you think that during the 'Black Pride' movement African/Black people were wearing their hair in it's natural state 'just because'? It was a political statement about SELF ACCEPTANCE.

quote:
We black women are our own worst enemy. As if we don't have ENOUGH going on, we have to contend with each other over basic respect issues.


Basic respect would have prevented you from attacking my NATURAL phenotype which is a non-issue...

quote:
I've said this before, though not on this disccussion board, but I believe that for all the talk of sisterhood, and sista this and sista that, what I've come to believe WHOLEHEARTEDLY is that black women ACTUALLY can not stand each other. No matter what's being shown on the surface, on the REAL, sisterhood is not there. And if we can't find a REAL reason to hate each other, we'll make one up. What's the quickest way to get a conviction for a black woman in a court of law? Give her an all black woman jury. Tried, tested, and true.


That's sad that you believe that. As I said earlier...

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
...we are at war, the beauty standard(hair issue) is just one of the psychological fronts(this battle is and internal one). We are not at war(externally) with each other though, we have a commen oppressor/exploiter/enemy.


You have been the one spewing hatred. You therefore may want to check yourself... but I doubt you can see beyond your own 'personal' and individual 'issues'. The bigger picture of combatting our shared oppression escapes you. All you are worried about is defending you perm. When 'your perm' isn't even what's being attacked. The fact that probably about 80% of African women in the U.S.(or any other urban area that has been effected by colonialism globally) sport a perm is no coincidence. It speaks volumes about what is imposed on us. No matter how much you choose to take it 'persoanlly' and deny it as a SOCIETAL issue.

quote:
If you have a "system of hair logic" for determining whether or not a "sista" is worthy of of political convo, respect, friendship, go for it.


I like how you twisted what I actually did say... that's cool, I'm used to your behavior by now. My posts speak for themselves, as does my everyday behavior.

quote:
I disagree with your "analytical" method of discernment. We can agree to disagree because the arguing is pointless. There's no way in hell I'll come around to your way of thinking, and I'm sure your mind is just as made up on your end. Do you. I'll do me.~



You fail to miss that this is not about 'changing your thinking'. I will do me, and that means I don't let bs fly.
Last edited {1}
Hmmm...

I have read a lot off this thread, I will only say a lot because of so much duplication (all the quoting). Off the top of my head as a black male, I have noticed a few different things.

1. there are a large percentage of black women with natural hair with white men. That means something, what I can not say.

2. there are a lot of black women who have their natural hair braided to appear similar to white women's hair. Again why, I can not say.

The bottom line is that hair does not say enough about a woman to draw a conclusion about them. The Phony-tail, the braided in, the short fro, the straitened, the loc'ed, ,the permed? Not enough to determine the consciousness of the wearer. You could blame it all on white supremacy, in that some may want to appear more euro or more afrique, but really is that the only choice? They may want to be comfortable and content.

You can draw conclusions based on the type of hair someone wears an you could be right, but you can just as easily be wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by Wiz:
Hmmm...

I have read a lot off this thread, I will only say a lot because of so much duplication (all the quoting). Off the top of my head as a black male, I have noticed a few different things.

1. there are a large percentage of black women with natural hair with white men. That means something, what I can not say.


I've noticed this, particularly on the East and West coast...and in Europe. I'm not sure what that's about either. 19
I think it has a lot to do with intelligence and being accepted.

In the black community, the walls are close together. Everyone has to beleive in God, everyone has to like MLK, everyone has to eat stuffing...

(Those are just examples, not that any of them are true, all that much) But is an easy community to be an outsider in, well be an outsider out of. Book smarts, especially ones that do not immediately transform into money are not really all that welcome. There are few black socialists or few black libertarians or few black wiccans, so few that they really do not have enough to be a real presence in a local community.

So a bookish black woman often wants a companion, there probably are not a lot of men black men in her immediate vicinity that fit the bill for her. And ones that are, are often like roosters because they recognize their own rareness and do not feel the need to settle down since they are so few of them and so many black and some white women available to them. So instead of competing for the favors of that rarer black man, they get with white men who are more than available to them.

And it is sometimes a money thing as well, wealthier black men, while there are a lot more of them than 30 years ago, there are a lot more wealthy black women than there are men, and they do not want to take care of a man or feel taken advantage of by a man, which often appear as the choices they are faced with.

Of course such ruminations hardly can explain all or perhaps not even most of the black women, with natural hair, engaging with white men. But those are my observations.
Ordinarily I wouldn't lift a post from one site to another but I saw this one on a natural hair website called nappturality.com and thought it was fascinating and worthy of sharing with the sistas. The sight encourages sistas to start with the BC (big chop), cutting out the permed portion of the hair and create a photo diary of the hair as it grows into its natural state...



"I'm a 28 yr old South African woman, living in Cape Town. I've been transitioning for 5 months and I believe that I'm finally ready to do the BC this December, just in time for the hot days of summer.

But this journey has been long and complicated and heavily influenced by the psyche of the environment that I find myself in. South Africa, particularly Cape Town, has had a long history of oppression of the physical - body and hair. In this country, I am classified as a "coloured" person, a term that I whole heartedly reject. It only means that I am part of that mixed-race group that the oppressive apartheid government could not define, so they created a whole new racial group just to keep their need for control going.

I guess I need to go back a bit to explain the origins of this diverse and beautiful group of people who have made Cape Town what it is today. Slavery in Cape Town dates back to 1658, when the Dutch East Indian company decided to have a refreshment station to provide supplies to the passing ships who participated in the Spice Trade. Soon the refreshment station grew, and the Dutch colonists requested that slaves be sent to help with the rapid growth of this station. The first two groups of slaves were from Angola, but the rest came from Indian Ocean countries such as Madagascar, mozambique, India, Sri lanka and various Indonesian islands. You can only imagine the diversity found in Cape Town when the slave trade was at its height, a diversity that has defined Cape Town until this day.

My own ancestry is indigenous Khoi-San, Black, European, and my maternal grandfather is Indian. I've been created with thick, thick curly coarse hair, something that my mother (with her more straight hair) has been trying to beat into submission for all of my childhood years. When apartheid became the law of the land in 1948, the government had a particular problem with mixed-race people, the descendants of slaves, because many of them looked white. So they started conducting tests on people who were border line cases: a pencil was inserted into the hair and if it fell out, you were classified as white, if it stayed in, you were "coloured". So you can only imagine the politics of hair that emerged from this kind of thinking. It was always better to have straight hair and be associated with whiteness.

My family ranges from white-looking to dark beauties. And yet, while this diversity should be celebrated, it is still more desirable to have straighter hair. This is where I have started my journey... my hair is far too thick to ignore, I can't relax it anymore. I can't continue to endure the sting and odour of chemicals every 8 weeks. I want out...

I know that this is only the beginning. I know I will get weird looks and stony silences. SO many people still need to change their thinking when it comes to beauty standards. Many "coloured" people have fully embraced their Africanness, but still too many revere their European bloodlines. WE need to wake up and realise that we are AFRIKAN, and to celebrate this. I'm making a start
"
fro There are many of us Black women here in this country affected by this hair syndrome as well i.e. the desire to have "white" hair or good hair. Tragically. Even today. I remember back in the day....60s & early 70's...having a natural was a sign of accepting and embracing YOUR blackness. There were STILL those who refused to let go of that "straigthening comb" but nevertheless there were PLENTY of us out there representing this New Love. I thought it was gonna LAST forever. But unfortunately, the eighties appeared...and the hip hop generation emerged and suddenly having "straight" hair or the "gerry curl" were the new crave among young people. Folks were wearing the shyte out of weaves....or sporting a curl [which eventually would turn "ashy" red for some from too much sun exposure]. I must admit I had a gerry curl and wore my hair very short to the head. It was easier cuz I had children to take care of...so it was a "time management" thing. I am soooo glad that the gerry curl craved is DEAD. The Black men who wore it [and some women too] were always seen with that famous "grease" stain around the collar from the activator...or the oily and unnatural look itself. Thankgod! It's somewhat GONE. But I still see [not very often] folks who STILL refuse to let it go. They wear it with SUCH pride. But not the same kind of PRIDE when naturals came out in the sixities....nope there will NEVER be that KIND of Black Pride about hair again....I don't think. Not in my lifetime anyway. And that's what makes it sooooooo tragic. Now you see a few of us sporting the natural...and there are many of the newer generation "trying" to sport it today BUT! For me.... It is just NOT the SAME! I guess there's no "SOUL". And you know, you just got to have SOUL...and young folks just don't know what that IS or what that MEANS. fro
I'll say this about the hair thing and then leave it alone because no one is going to change their already made up minds. Although there are probably some Black women who straighten their hair because they want to look like another race, not all Black women with perms feel that way. I relax my hair and I am definitely not trying to look white. It was never engrained in my mind that my naturally kinky/nappy hair needed to be fixed. My hair was relaxed when I was a little girl and I've been following that routine ever since. I don't have a problem with natural hair; in fact, I think natural styles are beautiful. But if I choose to straighten my hair that doesn't make me any less Black or any less conscious than a sista with locs. I've seen women with natural styles that have been died an unnatural color. I see that as a huge contradiction, but they are doing them just like I am doing me. Unless someone is a mind reader and knows with an absolute certainty what is going on inside my head, they can't say that I'm trying to look white. It's not about trying to look white, at least not for me. It's simply about personal preference.
I'm happy with my dreads. After the days when I used to wear braids and relaxers I decided just to go natural. I feel like it fits my personality.... I don't know if that makes sense. The fake stuff just isn't for me. I don't think every black woman who straightens her hair is trying to emulate white women, although undoubtedly many of them do. I've heard women say straight hair is more manageable... Although I don't really know what that means because I see plenty of sistahs with natural hair and they don't seem to have any problem wearing their hair. As a matter of fact, I think it'd be easier to run a pick through an afro or whatever than it would to press, relax, roll up, flat iron, and do whatever else it takes to get straight hair.
I_am_Mahogany said:
I relax my hair and I am definitely not trying to look white...

It was never engrained in my mind that my naturally kinky/nappy hair needed to be fixed...


Yet...

My hair was relaxed when I was a little girl and I've been following that routine ever since....

and one can notice this contradiction...

I've seen women with natural styles that have been died an unnatural color. I see that as a huge contradictione...

But not be aware of the above and below ones...

It's simply about personal preference.

which came about because...

My hair was relaxed when I was a little girl and I've been following that routine ever since....

fascinating...
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_Mahogany:

I'll say this about the hair thing and then leave it alone because no one is going to change their already made up minds. Although there are probably some Black women who straighten their hair because they want to look like another race, not all Black women with perms feel that way. I relax my hair and I am definitely not trying to look white. It was never engrained in my mind that my naturally kinky/nappy hair needed to be fixed. My hair was relaxed when I was a little girl and I've been following that routine ever since. I don't have a problem with natural hair; in fact, I think natural styles are beautiful. But if I choose to straighten my hair that doesn't make me any less Black or any less conscious than a sista with locs. I've seen women with natural styles that have been died an unnatural color. I see that as a huge contradiction, but they are doing them just like I am doing me. Unless someone is a mind reader and knows with an absolute certainty what is going on inside my head, they can't say that I'm trying to look white. It's not about trying to look white, at least not for me. It's simply about personal preference.



You know, what I found so compelling about the post of the young woman in south africa was her level of awareness about her history, her culture, and the politics of hair. It also underscored for me that black women in south africa are facing some of the same issues that black women in Cuba, Brazil, and USA are facing with regard to race, beauty, and self acceptance. So, for me, how you wear your hair is not so important as understanding the politics of hair. I think if a black woman finds a hairstyle that fits not only her face but also her lifestyle and makes her feel confident, whether thats locs, braids, twists, weaves, wigs, waves, curls, fros, bantu knots, texturizers or perms, it's all good.

No other group of women can rock these things with flava like we do 1.

But, when it all boils down to it, we do need to acknowledge how straight/permed/relaxed hair on west african phenotype black women came to be.

You, as an individual may not be trying to look white but the trend of pressing combs, lye based products, and other straightening techniques came about as a result of dissatisfaction with kinky tightly coiled african hair. If we black women are to be honest with ourselves about black beauty, then have to acknowlege the "politics of hair" in every country where black women are present no matter how we wear our hair. The history of permed/relaxed hair begins with the rejection of naps as something un-beautiful, something which needed to be made straight.

Now, I don't think there is any shame in saying I choose to wear weave but i understand the politics of hair

or

I choose to wear a perm but I understand the politics of hair

or

I choose to wear "golden honey" highlights but i understand the politics of hair.

but we still have to acknowledge that there is a "politics" surrounding our hair.


i'mma have to draw the line at asymmetrical burgundy clip-in pieces though Wink lol
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_Mahogany:

I'll say this about the hair thing and then leave it alone because no one is going to change their already made up minds. Although there are probably some Black women who straighten their hair because they want to look like another race, not all Black women with perms feel that way. I relax my hair and I am definitely not trying to look white. It was never engrained in my mind that my naturally kinky/nappy hair needed to be fixed. My hair was relaxed when I was a little girl and I've been following that routine ever since. I don't have a problem with natural hair; in fact, I think natural styles are beautiful. But if I choose to straighten my hair that doesn't make me any less Black or any less conscious than a sista with locs. I've seen women with natural styles that have been died an unnatural color. I see that as a huge contradiction, but they are doing them just like I am doing me. Unless someone is a mind reader and knows with an absolute certainty what is going on inside my head, they can't say that I'm trying to look white. It's not about trying to look white, at least not for me. It's simply about personal preference.



You know, what I found so compelling about the post of the young woman in south africa was her level of awareness about her history, her culture, and the politics of hair. It also underscored for me that black women in south africa are facing some of the same issues that black women in Cuba, Brazil, and USA are facing with regard to race, beauty, and self acceptance. So, for me, how you wear your hair is not so important as understanding the politics of hair. I think if a black woman finds a hairstyle that fits not only her face but also her lifestyle and makes her feel confident, whether thats locs, braids, twists, weaves, wigs, waves, curls, fros, bantu knots, texturizers or perms, it's all good.

No other group of women can rock these things with flava like we do 1.

But, when it all boils down to it, we do need to acknowledge how straight/permed/relaxed hair on west african phenotype black women came to be.

You, as an individual may not be trying to look white but the trend of pressing combs, lye based products, and other straightening techniques came about as a result of dissatisfaction with kinky tightly coiled african hair. If we black women are to be honest with ourselves about black beauty, then have to acknowlege the "politics of hair" in every country where black women are present no matter how we wear our hair. The history of permed/relaxed hair begins with the rejection of naps as something un-beautiful, something which needed to be made straight.

Now, I don't think there is any shame in saying I choose to wear weave but i understand the politics of hair

or

I choose to wear a perm but I understand the politics of hair

or

I choose to wear "golden honey" highlights but i understand the politics of hair.

but we still have to acknowledge that there is a "politics" surrounding our hair.


i'mma have to draw the line at asymmetrical burgundy clip-in pieces though Wink lol



I agree with Koco... well stated...

I would also add that it is important for the person to realize how the politics of hair has affected their "preferences".... or "choices"
I laughed when I saw the title of this thread...and I did because people seem to judge other people a lot based upon what they choose to do with their own head...which is just ridiculous to me.

It's their head...who are you to say what style they should and should not wear??? Isn't that doing exactly what various oppressors did to us? But especially in the current "corporate plantation" that seeks to obliterate any signs of "ethnicity?"

If you don't know your history, you will never UnderStand your present.

...and it amazes me how people talk about our history and fail to recognize how they perpetuate the same oppressions as that of the oppressors that would try to be "there" for us.

I don't judge other Black Women on how WE choose to wear our hair. While I realize that some Black Women are trying to run completely from who they are as Black Women via traditional European beauty standards, I don't let MySelf mark their experience either. Each person has got to find their own soul through their own journey.

Personally, I've worn every style you can think of: I've been "relaxed," curled up, wigged up, braided up in just about every design you can think of, weaved, bald - yes bald, and "all natural"....

All styles I rocked whenever and wherever I chose to...and I didn't let anybody give me any "grief" over MY hair or head. If I relaxed it - good, it was still my hair. If I curled it - good, it was still my hair. If I wore a wig or a weave, look I paid for it so yes, it was STILL my hair. If I braided it, it was still my hair. If I shaved it all off, dangit I could put it in the toilet if I wanted to - it was STILL MY HAIR and my shiny head looked good. If I wear it natural, it's still MY HAIR.

Politics of hair??? Please. There can be no "politics" about what I refuse to have people police. It's mine - I rule it. You do not. Period.

See what the real problem is, is that we have too many followers, and too many fraidy cats. Too weak to do what they like to do and be themselves, so they follow others and too afraid to tell others where to go if they don't like your brand of flavor.

I wish someone would tell me they can't "make nice" with me based off of my hair! That isn't a person I'd have for a friend or a job I'd take on, etc., if they'd be so shallow and really so arrogant.

Hair war? Hardly...Again, there can be no war about something that I refuse to let others fight me on.

...and good hair isn't about being anything other than Black. Good hair is about growing and maintaining hair that is healthy.

"Wisdom Is A Woman Who Can't Stand Non-Sense!"
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
What about the term "Politics of hair" do you find objectionable? Do you actually understand the term?


LOL! WOW!

Well, NegroSpiritual....

YES I UnderStand the PHRASE. What I find "objectionable" is the premise that my hair should cause such a stir for anybody given that it is MINE. While I'm well aware of the tactics that have been used historically against our Beauty, meaning Black Women, by no means does that mean that we have to live by that and play other's games when it comes to assessing the "standards of beauty" for US.

Again, there can be no argument behind what belongs to me and there can be no standards that take away from what naturally belongs to me.

Now I'd ask you: What about the PHRASE "It's mine - I rule it. You do not. Period...." do you find objectionable? Do you actually understand where your boundaries end and another's begins?

"Wisdom Is A Woman Laughin....(and it's still MINE)!"
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:

quote:
Originally posted by ShayaButHer:



LOL! WOW!


Confused Confused Confused wow?

Shaya said:
quote:
Now I'd ask you: What about the PHRASE "It's mine - I rule it. You do not. Period...." do you find objectionable? Do you actually understand where your boundaries end and another's begins?



I asked you because it was puzzling to me why you would react to the term "politics of hair" in the way that you did...

I'm further puzzled by the "i rule it you do not" statement, and the "boundary statement" since understanding "the politics of hair" does not imply "ruling" the hair of others? Confused


Let me try to clarify my question: What about the phrase "understanding the politics of hair" suggests "ruling" the hair of others? What about the term "the politics of hair" prompted a knee-jerk response of "it's mine. I rule it"????


I would venture to say the majority of posters in the thread declined to rule on "proper black hair styles".


oh, maybe your comments were in general and not directed specifically at any poster. And particularly not me since i stated in much the same way you did that whatever the style a sista rocks, it's all good...

i see... your comments were in no way directed toward me.

my bad

carry on.
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_Mahogany:

I'll say this about the hair thing and then leave it alone because no one is going to change their already made up minds. Although there are probably some Black women who straighten their hair because they want to look like another race, not all Black women with perms feel that way. I relax my hair and I am definitely not trying to look white. It was never engrained in my mind that my naturally kinky/nappy hair needed to be fixed. My hair was relaxed when I was a little girl and I've been following that routine ever since. I don't have a problem with natural hair; in fact, I think natural styles are beautiful. But if I choose to straighten my hair that doesn't make me any less Black or any less conscious than a sista with locs. I've seen women with natural styles that have been died an unnatural color. I see that as a huge contradiction, but they are doing them just like I am doing me. Unless someone is a mind reader and knows with an absolute certainty what is going on inside my head, they can't say that I'm trying to look white. It's not about trying to look white, at least not for me. It's simply about personal preference.



You know, what I found so compelling about the post of the young woman in south africa was her level of awareness about her history, her culture, and the politics of hair. It also underscored for me that black women in south africa are facing some of the same issues that black women in Cuba, Brazil, and USA are facing with regard to race, beauty, and self acceptance. So, for me, how you wear your hair is not so important as understanding the politics of hair. I think if a black woman finds a hairstyle that fits not only her face but also her lifestyle and makes her feel confident, whether thats locs, braids, twists, weaves, wigs, waves, curls, fros, bantu knots, texturizers or perms, it's all good.

No other group of women can rock these things with flava like we do 1.

But, when it all boils down to it, we do need to acknowledge how straight/permed/relaxed hair on west african phenotype black women came to be.

You, as an individual may not be trying to look white but the trend of pressing combs, lye based products, and other straightening techniques came about as a result of dissatisfaction with kinky tightly coiled african hair. If we black women are to be honest with ourselves about black beauty, then have to acknowlege the "politics of hair" in every country where black women are present no matter how we wear our hair. The history of permed/relaxed hair begins with the rejection of naps as something un-beautiful, something which needed to be made straight.

Now, I don't think there is any shame in saying I choose to wear weave but i understand the politics of hair

or

I choose to wear a perm but I understand the politics of hair

or

I choose to wear "golden honey" highlights but i understand the politics of hair.

but we still have to acknowledge that there is a "politics" surrounding our hair.


i'mma have to draw the line at asymmetrical burgundy clip-in pieces though Wink lol



I agree with Koco... well stated...

I would also add that it is important for the person to realize how the politics of hair has affected their "preferences".... or "choices"


Ditto @ NS's post & yeah
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
You know, what I found so compelling about the post of the young woman in south africa was her level of awareness about her history, her culture, and the politics of hair. It also underscored for me that black women in south africa are facing some of the same issues that black women in Cuba, Brazil, and USA are facing with regard to race, beauty, and self acceptance. So, for me, how you wear your hair is not so important as understanding the politics of hair. I think if a black woman finds a hairstyle that fits not only her face but also her lifestyle and makes her feel confident, whether thats locs, braids, twists, weaves, wigs, waves, curls, fros, bantu knots, texturizers or perms, it's all good.

No other group of women can rock these things with flava like we do 1.

But, when it all boils down to it, we do need to acknowledge how straight/permed/relaxed hair on west african phenotype black women came to be.

You, as an individual may not be trying to look white but the trend of pressing combs, lye based products, and other straightening techniques came about as a result of dissatisfaction with kinky tightly coiled african hair. If we black women are to be honest with ourselves about black beauty, then have to acknowlege the "politics of hair" in every country where black women are present no matter how we wear our hair. The history of permed/relaxed hair begins with the rejection of naps as something un-beautiful, something which needed to be made straight.

Now, I don't think there is any shame in saying I choose to wear weave but i understand the politics of hair

or

I choose to wear a perm but I understand the politics of hair

or

I choose to wear "golden honey" highlights but i understand the politics of hair.

but we still have to acknowledge that there is a "politics" surrounding our hair.


i'mma have to draw the line at asymmetrical burgundy clip-in pieces though Wink lol


That was truly food for thought...You know, every time I see a debate about natural versus chemically treated hair, I guess I get so caught up in defending my point that I've never really given much thought to the history or the politics behind it all.

Thank you negrospiritual! You've given me something to think about.

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