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Originally posted by Khalliqa:
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Originally posted by Rowe:
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Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
yeah

This is a general question...

Why is discussing or rather mentioning the foundational issues when it aplies to the subject of the thread labelled as being 'judgemental' or 'divisive'?

Is it that people can't handle the truth?


Sister Oshun, girl, now I know you're not talking, because I've seen your hair. You don't have those tight, sister-girl curls like most Black women do. So the transition may not have been as traumatic for you as may have been for us. You're hair is almost straight! But let us consider the sister who has that strong, tightly-curled, and glorious crown of Mother Africa hair, ok. That is another matter entirely. You try tell that sister that she needs to leave the relaxer alone, and you're likely to get a mouthful.Big Grin



I must say that Oshun is one of the rare lighter hued sisters that "get it" she doesn't degrade or deny her own unique beauty to "get it", nor does she deny anyone else's pain to "get it" .... I admire her tremendously for that..... as we exist in a sea of women in denial.....

she is quite balanced and extraordinarily empathetic....

her loose curl and societies acceptance of her "look" hasn't blinded her to the realities of the dark skinned kinky haired women.... (in fact it was her who helped me with the correct phenotypical term of "bantu")..... a true statement to her love for her people....


but her loose curl and empathetic ability is a separate issue from what I believe is her point...

which still has not been addressed.... I feel it is a valid one..

terms such as "judgemental" and "divisive" are often thrown at those who simply point out the foundation of someone's inability to deal with colorism and its effects on us all.....

and wondering if it is just a matter of others not being able to deal with the reality of the situation....


thanks hug
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
I have to disagree with this, because wearing the hair straight doesn't exempt a Black woman from feeling the effects of racism and colorism. Regardless of the way a Black woman wears her hair, she must deal with the of experiences racism in her community, whether she wants to or not.


This is true, hairstyle doesn't 'exempt' anyone, but the effects are different, as you pointed out...

My friend, who is actually very dark, and beautiful in general(inside and out), get's an entirely different treatment by men now that her hair is short and natural. She used to have pretty long permed hair... past her shoulders, and would receive many a compliment on it... and that frequent 'you are pretty to be so dark' crap. Now that she has a short natural, she is barely approached, and there is no other change to her appearance. I realize I'm in a somewhat racially backwards area... but the effects for her socially have been drastic... and heart wrenching for her.

quote:
I think a lack of empathy on the part of some participants becomes apparent when those of us who are particularly strong-willed and socially rebellious, refuse to accept that not everyone can psychologically handle the fears and anxieties that inevitably come after making a decision to go completely natural. Simply because some of us may have the courage and rebellious will to follow through on this decision does not mean that everyone does. And if going natural were not "that big of a deal", then would certainly see everyone doing it, but we don't.


But how is discussing and/or mentioning the underlying issues doing this? If anything, I think what Khalliqa laid out, needs to be discussed more. White supremacy and how it functions intra/inter-racially(and it's mechanisms) needs to be discussed in whatever area applicable... No? The rebellious folk are rebellious because they understand the system...no? How can we spread understanding if it is a taboo topic?
fro The first thing I gonna do is FIND that book "400 Years Without A Comb" and get the author's name and pass it on to sistas here who haven't read it. It is dynamic! And true some sistas are DIVIDED when it comes to HAIR and COMPLEXION. Instead we should be PROUD. CUZ no other CULTURE of women can PRODUCE an array of BEAUTIFUL children....like flowers...hence the phrase: flower child. We have been CONDITIONED to react this way. The first thing some of us do when children are born is look at the grade of hair. It's brainwashing from the European...this hair thang. They did it the French Quarters [like they did in Europe's brothel] with the mulatto women who raised their girls to cater to the French man and be his "debutant" whore NEVER his wife....and on the island the hair/color division it's done as well. So much that they had to announced to the people NOT to use the bleaching cream cuz it is so toxic and dangerous. Light-skin means BETTER cuz EVERYBODY with this mentality not only really want to be like MASSA but want LOOK like him/her too. The hair. The skin color. How can you HATE someone and want to be like "him/her" at the same time? And as SMART as we ARE why is it that is the same OLD BACKWARDS ASS perspective that if you're black STEP BACK, if you're BROWN stick around BUT! If you're LIGHT....you're ALRIGHT! cuz you're almost WHITE! Sistas [and brothas] NEED to STOP this. RIGHT NOW! massa did'nt care what color slave women were or how nappy their hair was when he was RAPING them.... I come from a salt and pepper family [we all do] some kinfolk with light skin, some kinfolk with dark skin....MASSA DON'T CARE the shade of black folks cuz they're still NIGGAHS to him. We need to EMBRACE WHO WE ARE....and that means OUR HAIR too. Cuz I have NEVER been my HAIR. NEVER! I have taught my girls the same thing so when whitegirl comes up to them and say "can I touch "it." Like "it" is something that fell to the earth unnatural....I taught them to say....Heck NAWL... I'm not a "thing"....I'm a human being!" And they never ask them that again. So ladies, with our newer generation of young girls....we have a LOT of WORK to do! Especially if we are to pass black is beautiful pride on to the next legacy of blackfolks, that is. fro
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
I have to disagree with this, because wearing the hair straight doesn't exempt a Black woman from feeling the effects of racism and colorism. Regardless of the way a Black woman wears her hair, she must deal with the of experiences racism in her community, whether she wants to or not.


This is true, hairstyle doesn't 'exempt' anyone, but the effects are different, as you pointed out...

My friend, who is actually very dark, and beautiful in general(inside and out), get's an entirely different treatment by men now that her hair is short and natural. She used to have pretty long permed hair... past her shoulders, and would receive many a compliment on it... and that frequent 'you are pretty to be so dark' crap. Now that she has a short natural, she is barely approached, and there is no other change to her appearance. I realize I'm in a somewhat racially backwards area... but the effects for her socially have been drastic... and heart wrenching for her.

quote:
I think a lack of empathy on the part of some participants becomes apparent when those of us who are particularly strong-willed and socially rebellious, refuse to accept that not everyone can psychologically handle the fears and anxieties that inevitably come after making a decision to go completely natural. Simply because some of us may have the courage and rebellious will to follow through on this decision does not mean that everyone does. And if going natural were not "that big of a deal", then would certainly see everyone doing it, but we don't.


But how is discussing and/or mentioning the underlying issues doing this? If anything, I think what Khalliqa laid out, needs to be discussed more. White supremacy and how it functions intra/inter-racially(and it's mechanisms) needs to be discussed in whatever area applicable... No? The rebellious folk are rebellious because they understand the system...no? How can we spread understanding if it is a taboo topic?



~Do you think that the:

-Difficulty in transitioning, and...

-The loss of attractiveness to men


Do you think that these things can have anything to do with just simply feeling more feminine with long hair, rather than without? I mean, for example, don't cancer/chemo patients go through the same thing (black, white, red, yellow) when they lose their hair? I've seen them specifically react to the hair loss and it's very traumatizing for them, and doesn't have any ties to ethnic pride.

Maybe some men feel pretty much the same way about it. Especially a black man. Does he see another short afro, or shaved head, just like his own, yet on his woman....does he find that desirable?~
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
If anything, I think what Khalliqa laid out, needs to be discussed more. White supremacy and how it functions intra/inter-racially(and it's mechanisms) needs to be discussed in whatever area applicable... No? The rebellious folk are rebellious because they understand the system...no? How can we spread understanding if it is a taboo topic?


I'm not opposed to discussing the causes of Black womens' (and mens') negative thoughts and attitudes about the texture of our hair. However, merely discussing the causes are obviously not effective in getting some people to make the transition. For some people, the fear of disapproval and unacceptance is stronger than their will to change. Therefore, merely telling people, in a judgemental tone, that they are "in denial" about who they are, and so forth, is not very motivating. It's like expecting a fat person to stop eating beaause you called them fat. BTW: I'm not accusing you of being a judgemental person, I am speaking in general. Smile

In other words, if you were to ask your sister-girlfriend what motivated her to cut her long Black hair for a short natural, I'm sure it wasn't someone who was being a hair snob/hair-judger towards her. By the way, what was your friend's motivation for transitioning to a natural? Did she ever tell you? What was her inspiration?
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Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
I have to disagree with this, because wearing the hair straight doesn't exempt a Black woman from feeling the effects of racism and colorism. Regardless of the way a Black woman wears her hair, she must deal with the of experiences racism in her community, whether she wants to or not.


This is true, hairstyle doesn't 'exempt' anyone, but the effects are different, as you pointed out...

My friend, who is actually very dark, and beautiful in general(inside and out), get's an entirely different treatment by men now that her hair is short and natural. She used to have pretty long permed hair... past her shoulders, and would receive many a compliment on it... and that frequent 'you are pretty to be so dark' crap. Now that she has a short natural, she is barely approached, and there is no other change to her appearance. I realize I'm in a somewhat racially backwards area... but the effects for her socially have been drastic... and heart wrenching for her.

quote:
I think a lack of empathy on the part of some participants becomes apparent when those of us who are particularly strong-willed and socially rebellious, refuse to accept that not everyone can psychologically handle the fears and anxieties that inevitably come after making a decision to go completely natural. Simply because some of us may have the courage and rebellious will to follow through on this decision does not mean that everyone does. And if going natural were not "that big of a deal", then would certainly see everyone doing it, but we don't.


But how is discussing and/or mentioning the underlying issues doing this? If anything, I think what Khalliqa laid out, needs to be discussed more. White supremacy and how it functions intra/inter-racially(and it's mechanisms) needs to be discussed in whatever area applicable... No? The rebellious folk are rebellious because they understand the system...no? How can we spread understanding if it is a taboo topic?



~Do you think that the:

-Difficulty in transitioning, and...

-The loss of attractiveness to men


Do you think that these things can have anything to do with just simply feeling more feminine with long hair, rather than without? I mean, for example, don't cancer/chemo patients go through the same thing (black, white, red, yellow) when they lose their hair? I've seen them specifically react to the hair loss and it's very traumatizing for them, and doesn't have any ties to ethnic pride.

Maybe some men feel pretty much the same way about it. Especially a black man. Does he see another short afro, or shaved head, just like his own, yet on his woman....does he find that desirable?~


Great questions Sister Butterfly.
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
~Do you think that the:

-Difficulty in transitioning, and...

-The loss of attractiveness to men


Do you think that these things can have anything to do with just simply feeling more feminine with long hair, rather than without? I mean, for example, don't cancer/chemo patients go through the same thing (black, white, red, yellow) when they lose their hair? I've seen them specifically react to the hair loss and it's very traumatizing for them, and doesn't have any ties to ethnic pride.

Maybe some men feel pretty much the same way about it. Especially a black man. Does he see another short afro, or shaved head, just like his own, yet on his woman....does he find that desirable?~


Why is long hair 'feminine' to African women when, because of hair texture, unless it is locked, African hair isn't typically very long? Who and what set the standard of femininity being 'long hair'?

This is still the Euro beauty standard in effect. With the Euro female being the epitomy of 'femininity'. Why would an ethnic group of people aspire to a feminine ideal that does not naturally occur in the majority of it's population?
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Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
Why is long hair 'feminine' to African women when, because of hair texture, unless it is locked, African hair isn't typically very long? Who and what set the standard of femininity being 'long hair'?

This is still the Euro beauty standard in effect. With the Euro female being the epitomy of 'femininity'. Why would an ethnic group of people aspire to a feminine ideal that does not naturally occur in the majority of it's population?


Good question Sister Oshun. Now we're getting to the nitty gritty this discussion is getting good.
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Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
~Do you think that the:

-Difficulty in transitioning, and...

-The loss of attractiveness to men


Do you think that these things can have anything to do with just simply feeling more feminine with long hair, rather than without? I mean, for example, don't cancer/chemo patients go through the same thing (black, white, red, yellow) when they lose their hair? I've seen them specifically react to the hair loss and it's very traumatizing for them, and doesn't have any ties to ethnic pride.

Maybe some men feel pretty much the same way about it. Especially a black man. Does he see another short afro, or shaved head, just like his own, yet on his woman....does he find that desirable?~



Why is long hair 'feminine' to African women when, because of hair texture, unless it is locked, African hair isn't typically very long? Who and what set the standard of femininity being 'long hair'?



~ munchI think it starts really early in life when mamma is plaiting the hair and putting barrettes on the ends and little brother is in the kitchen sitting still while daddy takes the clippers to his 'fro. We learn it early, and it sticks. I don't think it occurs to black mothers to cut their daughters hair off the same way the son's is cut. Thus, the feminine and masculine hairstyle is born.

African hair may not typically be as long as other hair, but IF IT DOES happen to grow long, that would be okay, right?....or should it still be cut off? Couldn't your friend with the long hair have braided it instead of cutting it off? Braids are ethnic, no? Even just as ethnic as locs? And maybe would have been a lot less traumatizing for her transition. The guys who thought her attractive with the long straight hair, surely wouldn't have minded long braids....which is a big difference from a short afro. When the guys stopped paying attention to her, did they start paying attention to you more? Just curious. munch~



This is still the Euro beauty standard in effect. With the Euro female being the epitomy of 'femininity'. Why would an ethnic group of people aspire to a feminine ideal that does not naturally occur in the majority of it's population?




~ munchWell, I think that question is better suited to those who may dye their hair blonde and the like. That hair color doesn't occur naturally to the black woman at all, and does to the white woman often. So that would be aspiring to a white standard of beauty for sure. But, the aspiration waters get pretty murky after that. From females that straighten their hair, and have always had a fondness for the long and straight look, I've heard FAR MORE references to aspiring to or the claiming of their real or suspected Indian heritage. It's verbalized often. Aspiring to be like a white woman is hardly, if ever, verbalized. And that is EXACTLY, imo, what black women with long black hair look like to me ---- black females with some indian mixed into their African ancestry. And when I see black women who don't have the long hair, aspiring to have it, I see it as aspiring to have the hair that their black sistahs with naturally long straight hair have. This was witnessed throughout grade school. There was not much talk of having hair like Amy and Beth. So, I don't really see it as aspiring to a "white" standard, as white women are not the only female segment of the population with long, or straight hair. I see it as simply aspiring to be "feminine" as opposed to "boyish". Even when white women chop their hair off it's called a "boy cut", because it IS seen as LESS feminine. I don't think that would be any different for any race of women. The less hair, the more manly the style --- the more hair, the more feminine the style. White people don't have the monopoly on that.~

Do you think that "cutting" is any more natural than "straightening" or "coloring"? munch~
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Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:



~ munchWell, I think that question is better suited to those who may dye their hair blonde and the like. That hair color doesn't occur naturally to the black woman at all, and does to the white woman often.


blonde can occur in other ( blks too)races besides whites. it is just rare and im not talking about albinos either.



quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:


Why would an ethnic group of people aspire to a feminine ideal that does not naturally occur in the majority of it's population?


but blonde hair doesnt occur in the majority of the yt population. blonde hair and blue eyes are rare genes for even yt ppl. so by following your logic, it still doesnt explain why blonde hair means beauty for yts.
fro Long hair doesn't mean feminine but because Massa's Ms. Ann didn't know what to do with that mess of hers...she forced slave girls/servants to brush it a hundred times a night or paid her brothel sisters to help her keep it desirable for her "tricks" cuz it was too tangly for her to handle herself. Left on her own, Ms. Ann's hair was mostly in a bun or ponytail...cuz she had no vision about her hair until she noticed the Amerindian girl's long beautiful locs. And did what Massa always do...copied the style especially when she realized Massa liked it [he was always raping Amerindian girls and as a trophy brought back the hair].

As we all know, African women especially Egyptians wore wigs...cuz why? It was tooooo DAMN hot to have all that LONG hair in Africa. A lot of Egyptian women shaved their heads and wore wigs during special events. Or wore braids, twists, locs sometimes during the rare cooler months. It was NEVER a hair thang for African women. NEVER. They adorned the head with amazing headdress i.e crowns and used their hair to weave in beautiful tinkets, beads, gems, etc to glorify whateva Goddess they were worshipping at the time. This hair thang in terms of verfication of beauty is a "MASSA" invention. Cuz why? Don't have anything of significance to verify human worth other than what "he" perceive is worthy and so far it is HAIR and white skin. Cuz why? Massa know or think this is something African/Black women don't have. Wrong! For African people in general, it has always been what's underneath the hair: Knowledge. Culture. Brilliance. Can Massa say the same? Hell No. They just have HAIR. Even during war, some Europeans used to dye their hair RED [I forget which country] cuz they felt it made them more vicious. This hair fetish is massa-made. Cuz Massa have used HAIR to formulate critizism to those who they consider do not fit the criteria of worth. SOOOO silly. Isn't it? But this conditioning works all over the world with many women [with long hair] buying into this psychotic perspective. Now many black women go NUTS over Asian hair, Yak Yak hair, Indian hair cuz they want to be perceived as worthy, desirable and feminine. Not!

For young black girls who struggle over identity, it is crucial to give them a HEALTHY outlook about their hair [I know I've said this before but it's important]. Long hair is Massa mass media of conditioning. Making women believe that they are not dynamic, desirable or feminint [sp] just cuz they do not have that long hair is just asine and pitiful. While it's true there are MANY black women with long hair....but the ridiculous stigma behind it makes the concentration/focus of hair more important than the concentration/focus of having good character. And having good character is far better than having "good" hair. I have found over the years that good hair and its meaning equate: long untangled hair but in reality for many it really is: RI.DIC.ULOUS. and self-hating but at the same time a VERY serious concern in our community. fro
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:
~Do you think that the:

-Difficulty in transitioning, and...

-The loss of attractiveness to men


Do you think that these things can have anything to do with just simply feeling more feminine with long hair, rather than without? I mean, for example, don't cancer/chemo patients go through the same thing (black, white, red, yellow) when they lose their hair? I've seen them specifically react to the hair loss and it's very traumatizing for them, and doesn't have any ties to ethnic pride.

Maybe some men feel pretty much the same way about it. Especially a black man. Does he see another short afro, or shaved head, just like his own, yet on his woman....does he find that desirable?~



Why is long hair 'feminine' to African women when, because of hair texture, unless it is locked, African hair isn't typically very long? Who and what set the standard of femininity being 'long hair'?



~ munchI think it starts really early in life when mamma is plaiting the hair and putting barrettes on the ends and little brother is in the kitchen sitting still while daddy takes the clippers to his 'fro. We learn it early, and it sticks. I don't think it occurs to black mothers to cut their daughters hair off the same way the son's is cut. Thus, the feminine and masculine hairstyle is born.


Ok, I'm not sure if I can give all the background necessary, but you seem to be looking only at the micro-cosm, and not the macro-cosm. NOBODY is saying that the hair should be a low bald cut for women... I'm talking about NATURAL hair. If African NATURAL hair is left to it's own means, it rarely is defined as 'long'. I've heard and seen what would better qualify as 'full' or even 'big'... but 'long' indicates the ability for the hair to 'fall' and pass the shoulders, which is not indicative of the typical African hairtype. BTW, what you have described skipps a lot of other 'learned' behavior(like the pressing of hair in the kitchen ect.) It also skips past the socio-political realities of GLOBAL white supremacy... How and why do you want to remove the conversation from those realities? How is that even possible? Are you doing this on purpose?

quote:
African hair may not typically be as long as other hair, but IF IT DOES happen to grow long, that would be okay, right?....or should it still be cut off?


I am one of the few who has long hair... Long curley hair, but that is because of genetic admixture. The FACT remains that the majority of the African/Black female population on the GLOBE does not have my hair type, so it is odd and very strange indeed for it to be the 'feminine ideal'. Before genetic admixture, which is a result largely of the very negative and dehumanizing historical processes of slavery and colonialism/imperialism, this was not the case.

quote:
Couldn't your friend with the long hair have braided it instead of cutting it off? Braids are ethnic, no? Even just as ethnic as locs? And maybe would have been a lot less traumatizing for her transition.


She cut her hair off because she cut of her chemical relaxer. She no longer wanted to have the unhealthy and racially debasing product attatched to her body. She never wore braids because she never like the thought of having 'additional hair' attatched to her hair. Of course, there is no aversion to others having braids... but they aren't her thing...

See the issue is, she had/has very little self esteem/image issues, and because the step to accepting her African hair texture was just a logical progression for her, she didn't even realize how much 'rejection' she was going to recieve because of deciding to go natural. It was somewhat of a shock for her. She literally heard what I call the 'hair speech' one time and cut off her perm, she didn't need much convincing because she already was somewaht of a socially/politically aware person. She is more 'in shock' with how ignorant people are around her. Far more than she noticed before.

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The guys who thought her attractive with the long straight hair, surely wouldn't have minded long braids....which is a big difference from a short afro.


You still aren't dealing with the root of why should the guys mind an Afro? It's the 'normal' hairstyle before slavery and colonialism? Should their attitude be corrected rather than catered too? Plus, who really wants a guy who likes you for 'long hair'? Talk about Eurocentric and shallow! We could have a mini discussion on the type of braid styles that are dominant pre and post colonialism...with the current prefference of micro-braids being a vary similar look to 'long straight hair')...

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When the guys stopped paying attention to her, did they start paying attention to you more? Just curious. munch~


Unfortunately, because I am light with curley hair I have always recieved more attention from the Eurocentric and shallow. One thing that is really interesting is that when she wears a head scarf, she get's way more attention. It's just when she doesn't, and they can see her natrural hair texture that it's a 'problem'.

quote:
quote:
This is still the Euro beauty standard in effect. With the Euro female being the epitomy of 'femininity'. Why would an ethnic group of people aspire to a feminine ideal that does not naturally occur in the majority of it's population?




~ munchWell, I think that question is better suited to those who may dye their hair blonde and the like. That hair color doesn't occur naturally to the black woman at all, and does to the white woman often. So that would be aspiring to a white standard of beauty for sure. But, the aspiration waters get pretty murky after that. From females that straighten their hair, and have always had a fondness for the long and straight look, I've heard FAR MORE references to aspiring to or the claiming of their real or suspected Indian heritage. It's verbalized often. Aspiring to be like a white woman is hardly, if ever, verbalized. And that is EXACTLY, imo, what black women with long black hair look like to me ---- black females with some indian mixed into their African ancestry. And when I see black women who don't have the long hair, aspiring to have it, I see it as aspiring to have the hair that their black sistahs with naturally long straight hair have.


Ok, you are missing the social context(colour caste system). We live in a majority European/white country, we live in a world where the European beauty standard is in effect for EVERYONE because of cultural(and physical, economic and political)imperialism. I agee that African women who dye their hair blonde are trying harder to fit the Euro-beauty standard(albeit unconsciously)... But the whole 'Indian' thing is aspiring to be less African. You see, in the global caste system European/White is at the top(with the Blonde haired/Blue eyes Northern European look holding the highest position), and African/Black is at the bottom(With dark skin and Bantu features holding the lowest position)... The other non-white people occupy varying positions in the caste system based on their approximation to the Northern European phenotype or the African/Bantu phenotype. So all the claiming Indian heritage thing is an attempt at escape of the bottom of the colour caste system. It's still self hatred. It's also still hatred of the Bantu/African phenotype to chemically straighten hair that is not NATURALLY straight. White people dominate this globe currently(by force), every ethnic group has within it people who try to make themselves appear 'less their own ethnicity', or convercly 'more white'. These things were not done prior to Aryan/European domination and influence. Asians get eye surgeries. Indians from India use bleaching creams and wear coloured contact lenses... The list goes on and on.

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This was witnessed throughout grade school. There was not much talk of having hair like Amy and Beth. So, I don't really see it as aspiring to a "white" standard, as white women are not the only female segment of the population with long, or straight hair. I see it as simply aspiring to be "feminine" as opposed to "boyish".


You still haven't explained how the natural growth of an Afro became 'boyish' in African society... It used to be the norm no(and Afro or close cropped braid styles)? What events took place to change the norm into 'boyish'?

quote:
Even when white women chop their hair off it's called a "boy cut", because it IS seen as LESS feminine.


Yes, because their hair groes naturally long and straight, but that is 'their' hair, not ours...

quote:
I don't think that would be any different for any race of women. The less hair, the more manly the style --- the more hair, the more feminine the style. White people don't have the monopoly on that.~


Yes, NOW because of white supremacy being global... but what about before European beauty standards were global... a.k.a., before non-whites and Africans in particular where oppressed? This standard derives from racial oppression and cultural imperialism. THAT'S why it's a negative.

quote:
Do you think that "cutting" is any more natural than "straightening" or "coloring"? munch~


Cutting off a perm is definately 'more natural'... Even wearing short hair is natural for African women. There is no damage to the skin, ect. Straightening hair is actually UNHEALTHY. Is it healthy and natural to use a chemical so harsh on our heads that it gives us chemical burns, just to have straight hair? Is it healthy to use a burning hot metal comb scorches our hair and skin? There are natural hair dyes like Henna to make hair shiny and colour grey... But to lighten one's natural hair colour entails the use of harsh chemicals also. Cutting the permed hair off to go natural is far more 'healthy' than the alternatives... Physically more halthy and psychologically more healthy. If our hair was natural from jump, there would be no cutting necessary right?
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quote:
Originally posted by ladyj:
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:



~ munchWell, I think that question is better suited to those who may dye their hair blonde and the like. That hair color doesn't occur naturally to the black woman at all, and does to the white woman often.


blonde can occur in other ( blks too)races besides whites. it is just rare and im not talking about albinos either.


These 'Blacks' are an obscure genetic occurance from remote pacific islands like Vanuatu. Why the heck would the mojority of African even know aboutt them? Why are we referrencing genetically rare populations when it comes to socio-political issues that derive from slavery and colonialism?

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:


Why would an ethnic group of people aspire to a feminine ideal that does not naturally occur in the majority of it's population?


but blonde hair doesnt occur in the majority of the yt population. blonde hair and blue eyes are rare genes for even yt ppl. so by following your logic, it still doesnt explain why blonde hair means beauty for yts.


I dealt with this in my explanation of the ideals set of the olour caste system.
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
issue four: why is there such a need to justify or minimize the effects of white folx proselytizing the straight haired/wavy haired woman as the standard and its effects on black women? only people I know who do that are crackas and negroes...


The justifications are erking me too... It's either a form of denial or something fishy is goiong on. Maybe it's youth...
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
issue four: why is there such a need to justify or minimize the effects of white folx proselytizing the straight haired/wavy haired woman as the standard and its effects on black women? only people I know who do that are crackas and negroes...


The justifications are erking me too... It's either a form of denial or something fishy is goiong on. Maybe it's youth...


Sister Oshun, notice there isn't as nearly as much controversy over hair in the brother's discussion about hair style choices. Oh the brothers are over there, chattin' it up, and happily posting pictures of themselves looking and feeling stress free and worry free. Get into the Sista's Spot, and here we go with the drama, shame, and condemnation. I understand and can relate to both sides of the argument, however. And because I try to seek balance in a discussion, I'm not able to take one position over another. But I will make the observation that because it is socially acceptable for women to grow their hair at length, we carry the heaviest burden in terms of people expecting us to use our hair to make a political statement. Men have the choice to either keep their hair closely shaven or bald, and no one can readily determine or question the status of their consciousness (lucky them). A Black woman, on the other hand, gets a perm, and BAM!, she's an ignorant sellout. Later on, she decides to sport a fro, and WHAMO! she's credited for being pro-Black. It seems to me that women tend to be their own worst enemies.
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Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
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Originally posted by ladyj:
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Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:



~ munchWell, I think that question is better suited to those who may dye their hair blonde and the like. That hair color doesn't occur naturally to the black woman at all, and does to the white woman often.


blonde can occur in other ( blks too)races besides whites. it is just rare and im not talking about albinos either.


These 'Blacks' are an obscure genetic occurance from remote pacific islands like Vanuatu. Why the heck would the mojority of African even know aboutt them? Why are we referrencing genetically rare populations when it comes to socio-political issues that derive from slavery and colonialism?.


i was only clarifying the myth that only yts have blonde hair.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:


Why would an ethnic group of people aspire to a feminine ideal that does not naturally occur in the majority of it's population?


but blonde hair doesnt occur in the majority of the yt population. blonde hair and blue eyes are rare genes for even yt ppl. so by following your logic, it still doesnt explain why blonde hair means beauty for yts.


I dealt with this in my explanation of the ideals set of the olour caste system.[/QUOTE]

ok
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Originally posted by Rowe:
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Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
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Originally posted by Khalliqa:
issue four: why is there such a need to justify or minimize the effects of white folx proselytizing the straight haired/wavy haired woman as the standard and its effects on black women? only people I know who do that are crackas and negroes...


The justifications are erking me too... It's either a form of denial or something fishy is goiong on. Maybe it's youth...


Sister Oshun, notice there isn't as nearly as much controversy over hair in the brother's discussion about hair-style choices. Oh the brothers are over there, chattin' it up and happily posting pictures of themselves looking and feeling stress free and worryfree. Get into the Sista's Spot, and here we go wit the drama, shame, and condemnation. I understand and can relate to both sides of the argument, however, and because I try to seek balance in a discussion, I'm not able to take one position over another. But I will make the observation that when it comes to Black womens' hair, we seem to carry the heaviest burden in terms of people expecting us to use our hair to make a political statement. Men have the choice to either keep their hair closely shaven or bald and no one can readily question or challenge the status of their consciousness (lucky them). A Black woman, on the other hand, gets a perm, and BAM!, she's an ignorant sellout. Later on, she decides to sport a fro, and WHAMO! she's credited for being pro-Black. It seems to me the women tend to be their own worst enemies.

thanks
which was my whole point in the 1st place.
btw, i think blk men getting those close cuts every week and wearing doo rags to make waves is for the same type of reasons as blk women straightening their hair. its just the blk woman gets all the negativity and condemnation for her choices.
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Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:


Ok, I'm not sure if I can give all the background necessary, but you seem to be looking only at the micro-cosm, and not the macro-cosm. NOBODY is saying that the hair should be a low bald cut for women... I'm talking about NATURAL hair. If African NATURAL hair is left to it's own means, it rarely is defined as 'long'. I've heard and seen what would better qualify as 'full' or even 'big'... but 'long' indicates the ability for the hair to 'fall' and pass the shoulders, which is not indicative of the typical African hairtype. BTW, what you have described skipps a lot of other 'learned' behavior(like the pressing of hair in the kitchen ect.) It also skips past the socio-political realities of GLOBAL white supremacy... How and why do you want to remove the conversation from those realities? How is that even possible? Are you doing this on purpose?


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~My bad. Yes, we learned to smooth, soften, straighten out our hair. We discovered that when we do this, our hair goes from "full" or "thick" or "big" or "hard" to "soft" and "smooth" and "straight" enough to "fall" like the hair of everybody else unlike us. I can imagine a generation of freed slaves going back to Africa with this newfound way of styling their hair and meeting with much hostility, or at least uncertainty, from family in the homeland. Yes, they learned from those whose way was supreme across the land. If they'd never met or come across the white man, this change may never have occurred. If we don't like the full, thick, big, hard style of hair, we learned not to like it from those whose way is supreme. In the homeland where we knew no different, there was nothing to not like about our hair. Even today I see pictures of African school girls in school uniforms (crisp white shirts, crisp navy skirts), shaved heads, they look just fine and content....and I think there is NO WAY that a class of African-American school girls would be or feel the same way about having their heads shaved. It would be such a culture-shock. Like the African model you all were talking about on another thread. She looks just fine and content with her shaved head. But, take an African-American model, like one of the Tyra's girls from this season that actually had that happen to her for her "makeover" look --- she was devastated. But, it's clear that she's getting more and more used to it as time passes. I don't know if she feels more pro-black than she did before or if the experience has moved her to the next "level" of heritage appreciation, though. Maybe she'll share that. At any rate, I have now officially moved these realities into the conversation.


Now, to answer your question, I don't think that African women DO think of long hair as feminine, as evidenced by their style of cutting it off a lot. African-American women DO think of long hair as feminine and, again, I think that we get that early on in life from THIS culture that does NOT tend to cut or shave a young girls head as is done in Africa. I don't think that it even ever occurs to African-American women to do that. Because we learned a bad thing?.... this grow-your-hair thing? Okay. How to unlearn it, though? The ONLY way that would collectively work is if our counterparts (African American men) collectively unlearned it right along with us (African American women), and learned to find us just as attractive with the African style as African men find their African women. Almost everyone hopes to attract a mate, and makes moves towards that end --- not away from it. Maybe we shouldn't CARE whether or not they are attracted to us or not, but that's just not being very realistic. A nation full of women like your friend getting the new and unfavorable attention, or no attention at all, from the men, and we'll be well on our way to extinction. If they want what they feel is attractive and feminine and we're not it, they WILL go elsewhere. The African-American woman is not going to sit by and let that happen just so that she can prove her appreciation for her African heritage, especially when she doesn't even like the "full, thick, big, hard" look herself.~
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I am one of the few who has long hair... Long curley hair, but that is because of genetic admixture. The FACT remains that the majority of the African/Black female population on the GLOBE does not have my hair type, so it is odd and very strange indeed for it to be the 'feminine ideal'. Before genetic admixture, which is a result largely of the very negative and dehumanizing historical processes of slavery and colonialism/imperialism, this was not the case.



~It's not odd nor strange at all. Many rare things are sought after. Matter of fact, aren't rare things the MOST sought after? And you don't HAVE to have long curly hair and be representative of the genetic admixture. You could always cut it off or down low to a 'fro. Have you ever done that? If so, did the attention that you get from men decrease any?~
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quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
For some reason discussion of the origins of feelings of hair inferiority are taken as an attack on someone who is considering going natural....

issue one: spotting a stranger and judging her-
ummm no... unless there is something weird about her like she got on booty shorts in the winter... I really don't give women on the street that kind of mental time out of my day...


issue two: if I were asked to stop and consider most sisters who wear their hair with chemicals I would say most are doing so out of inferiority complexes...

issue three: women who are just playing around with their hair and have surpassed or overcome euro beauty influences... are rare... as we never went through collectively as black women in America a period where natural hair was THE BEAUTY NORM.... to assume that there are just as many women who have gone through this stage is deceptive... and telling

issue four: why is there such a need to justify or minimize the effects of white folx proselytizing the straight haired/wavy haired woman as the standard and its effects on black women? only people I know who do that are crackas and negroes...


issue one: co workers and associates acting noticely different towards a person when they see a blk woman with a straight hair when she has dreads.

issue two: i would say there are more resaons to why a blk woman would wear straight hair/weaves. i personally wouldnt automatically assume that she feels inferior. no one is denying that blk women CAN feel inferior and our type of beauty is not showcased as much yts or not at all.

issue three: maybe i am just an optimist because i dont think its that rare for a woman to overcome european beauty influences. it is wrong to get to know a person first before judging?

issue four: no one is justifying or minimizing YTs influence on beauty. atleast i know i wasnt.
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~Couldn't your friend with the long hair have braided it instead of cutting it off? Braids are ethnic, no? Even just as ethnic as locs? And maybe would have been a lot less traumatizing for her transition.~


She cut her hair off because she cut of her chemical relaxer. She no longer wanted to have the unhealthy and racially debasing product attatched to her body. She never wore braids because she never like the thought of having 'additional hair' attatched to her hair. Of course, there is no aversion to others having braids... but they aren't her thing...

See the issue is, she had/has very little self esteem/image issues, and because the step to accepting her African hair texture was just a logical progression for her, she didn't even realize how much 'rejection' she was going to recieve because of deciding to go natural. It was somewhat of a shock for her. She literally heard what I call the 'hair speech' one time and cut off her perm, she didn't need much convincing because she already was somewaht of a socially/politically aware person. She is more 'in shock' with how ignorant people are around her. Far more than she noticed before.


~Well, do you feel the same way that she does about the racially debasing products, towards your own hair? I mean, you proudly wear the racially debasing evidence of the genetic admixture right on top of your head on a daily basis, with a smile. You don't feel compelled to remove it as much as possible? Does that make your friend more socially/politically aware than you are?

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~The guys who thought her attractive with the long straight hair, surely wouldn't have minded long braids....which is a big difference from a short afro.~


You still aren't dealing with the root of why should the guys mind an Afro? It's the 'normal' hairstyle before slavery and colonialism? Should their attitude be corrected rather than catered too? Plus, who really wants a guy who likes you for 'long hair'? Talk about Eurocentric and shallow! We could have a mini discussion on the type of braid styles that are dominant pre and post colonialism...with the current prefference of micro-braids being a vary similar look to 'long straight hair')...



~You act as if these men today are by some miracle the EXACT SAME MEN from "before slavery and colonialism" days. Men don't live to be 600 - 800 years old anymore. The afro was never as "normal" to African-American men today as it was to African men THEN. And if we seek to "correct" their bad attitude towards short hair, we must not stop there. It's also shallow of them to prefer big breasts and big butts, big thighs. They're shallow like that. If they don't like you for what they "see" of you FIRST, you hardly get the chance to let them know you as a person. That's just the way it is, mostly.~

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~When the guys stopped paying attention to her, did they start paying attention to you more? Just curious. ~


Unfortunately, because I am light with curley hair I have always recieved more attention from the Eurocentric and shallow. One thing that is really interesting is that when she wears a head scarf, she get's way more attention. It's just when she doesn't, and they can see her natrural hair texture that it's a 'problem'.


~Again, could this not be because it too much resembles their (men) OWN hair and it turns them OFF?~

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~ Well, I think that question is better suited to those who may dye their hair blonde and the like. That hair color doesn't occur naturally to the black woman at all, and does to the white woman often. So that would be aspiring to a white standard of beauty for sure. But, the aspiration waters get pretty murky after that. From females that straighten their hair, and have always had a fondness for the long and straight look, I've heard FAR MORE references to aspiring to or the claiming of their real or suspected Indian heritage. It's verbalized often. Aspiring to be like a white woman is hardly, if ever, verbalized. And that is EXACTLY, imo, what black women with long black hair look like to me ---- black females with some indian mixed into their African ancestry. And when I see black women who don't have the long hair, aspiring to have it, I see it as aspiring to have the hair that their black sistahs with naturally long straight hair have.


Ok, you are missing the social context(colour caste system). We live in a majority European/white country, we live in a world where the European beauty standard is in effect for EVERYONE because of cultural(and physical, economic and political)imperialism. I agee that African women who dye their hair blonde are trying harder to fit the Euro-beauty standard(albeit unconsciously)... But the whole 'Indian' thing is aspiring to be less African. You see, in the global caste system European/White is at the top(with the Blonde haired/Blue eyes Northern European look holding the highest position), and African/Black is at the bottom(With dark skin and Bantu features holding the lowest position)... The other non-white people occupy varying positions in the caste system based on their approximation to the Northern European phenotype or the African/Bantu phenotype. So all the claiming Indian heritage thing is an attempt at escape of the bottom of the colour caste system. It's still self hatred. It's also still hatred of the Bantu/African phenotype to chemically straighten hair that is not NATURALLY straight. White people dominate this globe currently(by force), every ethnic group has within it people who try to make themselves appear 'less their own ethnicity', or convercly 'more white'. These things were not done prior to Aryan/European domination and influence. Asians get eye surgeries. Indians from India use bleaching creams and wear coloured contact lenses... The list goes on and on.



~And the Aryan/European woman does a list of things to look less Aryan/European: breast implants, butt implants, lip injections, tanning salons, tanning sprays and body makeup. Again, we ALL make moves towards being attractive to a mate and they (men/another supreme dominating majority) dictate EXACTLY what is and is not attractive and we (women) proceed to fall in line with whatever, towards that end..~

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~This was witnessed throughout grade school. There was not much talk of having hair like Amy and Beth. So, I don't really see it as aspiring to a "white" standard, as white women are not the only female segment of the population with long, or straight hair. I see it as simply aspiring to be "feminine" as opposed to "boyish".~


You still haven't explained how the natural growth of an Afro became 'boyish' in African society... It used to be the norm no(and Afro or close cropped braid styles)? What events took place to change the norm into 'boyish'?


~It didn't become boyish in African society. It still IS the norm there, no? No events, to my knowledge, have taken place to change that norm.~
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~Even when white women chop their hair off it's called a "boy cut", because it IS seen as LESS than feminine.~


Yes, because their hair groes naturally long and straight, but that is 'their' hair, not ours...


~No, it's seen as less feminine because the style is what MEN wear on a regular basis. It's their (white women) taking of a (white) man's hairstyle as their own. Thus it's called a woman's "boy cut".~

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~I don't think that would be any different for any race of women. The less hair, the more manly the style --- the more hair, the more feminine the style. White people don't have the monopoly on that.~


Yes, NOW because of white supremacy being global... but what about before European beauty standards were global... a.k.a., before non-whites and Africans in particular where oppressed? This standard derives from racial oppression and cultural imperialism. THAT'S why it's a negative.


~Yes. Nothing about oppression is positive. The standard was born there, but it didn't HAVE to live on from one generation to the next. It does because men, in general, reign supreme. I believe just as many white women strive to be the "ideal" tanned, blonde white woman as there are African-American women that strive to be less African. When the Asian women that you mentioned bleach their skin, it's about what the men find attractive and has little to do with enslaved Africans. When women in (Japan? China?) were binding up their feet and folding them in half from CHILDHOOD, that had precious little to do with enslaved Africans in the Americas. It was all about their men finding little feet to be sexy. But, you want to put it on the (African American) women and tell them that they hate themselves. I say they're just not strong enough in "self" to just say, "I don't CARE what the men in my community find attractive. If I'm not it, then so be it!" ~
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~Do you think that "cutting" is any more natural than "straightening" or "coloring"? ~


Cutting off a perm is definately 'more natural'... Even wearing short hair is natural for African women. There is no damage to the skin, ect. Straightening hair is actually UNHEALTHY. Is it healthy and natural to use a chemical so harsh on our heads that it gives us chemical burns, just to have straight hair? Is it healthy to use a burning hot metal comb scorches our hair and skin? There are natural hair dyes like Henna to make hair shiny and colour grey... But to lighten one's natural hair colour entails the use of harsh chemicals also. Cutting the permed hair off to go natural is far more 'healthy' than the alternatives... Physically more halthy and psychologically more healthy. If our hair was natural from jump, there would be no cutting necessary right?


~You're missing the point. The women aren't going through all of that JUST to have straight hair. They're going through all of that in order to be ATTRACTIVE to a mate. If black men despised smooth, straight hair on a black woman, TRUST, those products would cease to be produced. You'll never convince an entire population of black women to say "What the hell! Just cut it all off! I don't even care anymore! If they want Amy and Maria, and Suki, let them have them! I'm ALL about appreciating my ancestors!"

Not even half of us will do it. Nor a third. Because it doesn't take *alladat* to prove social awareness. I don't think that you answered this before: Do you think that ethnic pride has anything to do with the devastation and trauma that women go through when they lose their hair through illness/chemotherapy? Don't you think that women are just "attached" to their hair as women --- and not attached to it as a "race"? To what do you attribute other women's hesitation and fear of losing their hair, and can the same attributes apply to a black woman's hesitation and fear of losing her hair, or does this just HAVE TO ABSOLUTELY be about her self-hatred, in your opinion?~
quote:
Originally posted by ladyj:
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
issue four: why is there such a need to justify or minimize the effects of white folx proselytizing the straight haired/wavy haired woman as the standard and its effects on black women? only people I know who do that are crackas and negroes...


The justifications are erking me too... It's either a form of denial or something fishy is goiong on. Maybe it's youth...


Sister Oshun, notice there isn't as nearly as much controversy over hair in the brother's discussion about hair-style choices. Oh the brothers are over there, chattin' it up and happily posting pictures of themselves looking and feeling stress free and worryfree. Get into the Sista's Spot, and here we go wit the drama, shame, and condemnation. I understand and can relate to both sides of the argument, however, and because I try to seek balance in a discussion, I'm not able to take one position over another. But I will make the observation that when it comes to Black womens' hair, we seem to carry the heaviest burden in terms of people expecting us to use our hair to make a political statement. Men have the choice to either keep their hair closely shaven or bald and no one can readily question or challenge the status of their consciousness (lucky them). A Black woman, on the other hand, gets a perm, and BAM!, she's an ignorant sellout. Later on, she decides to sport a fro, and WHAMO! she's credited for being pro-Black. It seems to me the women tend to be their own worst enemies.

thanks
which was my whole point in the 1st place.
btw, i think blk men getting those close cuts every week and the doorags to make waves are the same things as blk women straightening their hair. its the blk woman gets all the negativity and condemnation for her choices.



~Why didn't I just say what you two said? Excellence in a nutshell. appl My reply post looked WAY to chaotic even for me, so I had to break it up, LadyJ, into...I lost count...anyway, didn't mean to hijack. Big Grin~
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
issue four: why is there such a need to justify or minimize the effects of white folx proselytizing the straight haired/wavy haired woman as the standard and its effects on black women? only people I know who do that are crackas and negroes...


The justifications are erking me too... It's either a form of denial or something fishy is goiong on. Maybe it's youth...


Sister Oshun, notice there isn't as nearly as much controversy over hair in the brother's discussion about hair style choices. Oh the brothers are over there, chattin' it up, and happily posting pictures of themselves looking and feeling stress free and worry free. Get into the Sista's Spot, and here we go with the drama, shame, and condemnation. I understand and can relate to both sides of the argument, however. And because I try to seek balance in a discussion, I'm not able to take one position over another. But I will make the observation that because it is socially acceptable for women to grow their hair at length, we carry the heaviest burden in terms of people expecting us to use our hair to make a political statement. Men have the choice to either keep their hair closely shaven or bald, and no one can readily determine or question the status of their consciousness (lucky them). A Black woman, on the other hand, gets a perm, and BAM!, she's an ignorant sellout. Later on, she decides to sport a fro, and WHAMO! she's credited for being pro-Black. It seems to me that women tend to be their own worst enemies.


~ munchRowe, I wonder if there is even this level of controversy surrounding the subject among African women in Africa. Do you happen to know the consensus? For instance, the woman on your previous avatar --- I believe she wore a blue and gold clothe --- her hair definintely appears to have been straightened by some means, yet I doubt her African pride gets challenged. And the woman in your present avatar ---- the one holding the baby --- appears to definitely have been set on rollers. 19hmmmm. Are they "westernized" to a fault?...less African?...simply because they idulge in the hairstyle versatility that is available? Or is this [allegation of self-hatred] just something that African-American women seem to have issues with, from what you've seen or experienced? munch~
quote:
Originally posted by Kocolicious:
fro Long hair doesn't mean feminine but because Massa's Ms. Ann didn't know what to do with that mess of hers...she forced slave girls/servants to brush it a hundred times a night or paid her brothel sisters to help her keep it desirable for her "tricks" cuz it was too tangly for her to handle herself. Left on her own, Ms. Ann's hair was mostly in a bun or ponytail...cuz she had no vision about her hair until she noticed the Amerindian girl's long beautiful locs. And did what Massa always do...copied the style especially when she realized Massa liked it [he was always raping Amerindian girls and as a trophy brought back the hair].

As we all know, African women especially Egyptians wore wigs...cuz why? It was tooooo DAMN hot to have all that LONG hair in Africa. A lot of Egyptian women shaved their heads and wore wigs during special events. Or wore braids, twists, locs sometimes during the rare cooler months. It was NEVER a hair thang for African women. NEVER. They adorned the head with amazing headdress i.e crowns and used their hair to weave in beautiful tinkets, beads, gems, etc to glorify whateva Goddess they were worshipping at the time. This hair thang in terms of verfication of beauty is a "MASSA" invention. Cuz why? Don't have anything of significance to verify human worth other than what "he" perceive is worthy and so far it is HAIR and white skin. Cuz why? Massa know or think this is something African/Black women don't have. Wrong! For African people in general, it has always been what's underneath the hair: Knowledge. Culture. Brilliance. Can Massa say the same? Hell No. They just have HAIR. Even during war, some Europeans used to dye their hair RED [I forget which country] cuz they felt it made them more vicious. This hair fetish is massa-made. Cuz Massa have used HAIR to formulate critizism to those who they consider do not fit the criteria of worth. SOOOO silly. Isn't it? But this conditioning works all over the world with many women [with long hair] buying into this psychotic perspective. Now many black women go NUTS over Asian hair, Yak Yak hair, Indian hair cuz they want to be perceived as worthy, desirable and feminine. Not!

For young black girls who struggle over identity, it is crucial to give them a HEALTHY outlook about their hair [I know I've said this before but it's important]. Long hair is Massa mass media of conditioning. Making women believe that they are not dynamic, desirable or feminint [sp] just cuz they do not have that long hair is just asine and pitiful. While it's true there are MANY black women with long hair....but the ridiculous stigma behind it makes the concentration/focus of hair more important than the concentration/focus of having good character. And having good character is far better than having "good" hair. I have found over the years that good hair and its meaning equate: long untangled hair but in reality for many it really is: RI.DIC.ULOUS. and self-hating but at the same time a VERY serious concern in our community. fro


What about the spiritual aspect of long hair? A lot of women believe long hair is feminine because of how they accept scriptures from the Bible.
Originally posted by Ms. Glazed Sugar:
quote:
What about the spiritual aspect of long hair? A lot of women believe long hair is feminine because of how they accept scriptures from the Bible.


fro That is a concept written by MAN...not God. If it were so true, LONG hair would be PROVIDED for every woman at birth. Personally, I reject the definition of femininity from a social/psychological pattern of thought. Cuz massa used the "bible" to also justify SLAVERY. And to me, what was SAID in the BIBLE about OUR worth was definitely UNTRUE. So the real question for me, is do they also believe cuz it was written in bible/or any other religious document that women were born to be subjegated by MEN? fro
Sister Oshun, notice there isn't as nearly as much controversy over hair in the brother's discussion about hair style choices. Oh the brothers are over there, chattin' it up, and happily posting pictures of themselves looking and feeling stress free and worry free. Get into the Sista's Spot, and here we go with the drama, shame, and condemnation. I understand and can relate to both sides of the argument, however. And because I try to seek balance in a discussion, I'm not able to take one position over another. But I will make the observation that because it is socially acceptable for women to grow their hair at length, we carry the heaviest burden in terms of people expecting us to use our hair to make a political statement. Men have the choice to either keep their hair closely shaven or bald, and no one can readily determine or question the status of their consciousness (lucky them). A Black woman, on the other hand, gets a perm, and BAM!, she's an ignorant sellout. Later on, she decides to sport a fro, and WHAMO! she's credited for being pro-Black. It seems to me that women tend to be their own worst enemies.[QUOTE]

~True, Rowe. 'Seems that way, doesn't it? And the very fact that it is a non-issue with the men, as well as with the native African woman speaks volumes. It shouldn't be an issue with African-American women, either.

And I have absolute faith that had Madame Walker never laid an eye on a stringy-haired white woman, she would have STILL been creative enough to develop a hair care system for us. We know no bounds when it comes to hair creations, be it during Ancient Egyptian times to this VERY DAY. White women as muse and sole inspiration waaaaaaaaay back THEN or NOW for our creativity? Please! nono Whoever wants to own that untruth is free to do so, though. *shudder* But, they need to get a clue.~

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