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Go to Hell - Mugabe's Reply to US Quit Call

Cape Argus (Cape Town)
NEWS
April 16, 2003
Posted to the web April 16, 2003

By Basildon Peta


President Robert Mugabe's ruling party has told the United States to "go to hell" over its statement that Mugabe should step down and hand over power to a transitional government pending new elections.

Zanu-PF said it was the US that should have a transitional government and new elections because George Bush "was not elected".

"Instead of shouting instructions for Mugabe to step down, it's the Americans themselves who need a transitional government to hold fresh elections and replace the unelected Bush," Zanu-PF information secretary Nathan Shamuyarira said yesterday.

"If the Americans don't want to accept our legitimacy, it is their own problem. They can go to hell. There will be no new elections here."

Reports from Washington yesterday quoted the State Department as urging Zimbabwe's neighbours to step up pressure on Mugabe to hand over power to a transitional government, paving the way for new elections.

"What we're telling them is there has to be a transitional government in Zimbabwe that leads to a free and fair, internationally supervised election," a senior official was quoted as saying.

"That is the goal. He (Mugabe) stole the last one; we can't let that happen again," the unnamed official said. "It has to be internationally supervised, open, transparent, with an electoral commission that works."

He would not say whether Washington had received positive reactions to its call, but said generally southern African neighbours were increasingly aware of the problems posed by Mugabe's rule.

"The neighbourhood - meaning southern Africa - is realising that this is not going well, this is breaking bad," the official said. "The food situation is going to get nothing but worse, the economic scene is disastrous."

The official noted that Zimbabwe's economy was crippled by hyperinflation and an unemployment rate of 80% and Zimbabweans were fleeing in droves to become refugees in Botswana, Mozambique and South Africa.

In addition, the situation was hurting the economies of other countries in the region, as potential investors steered clear.

"The neighbourhood is starting to realise that there is a downside to giving aid and protection to Comrade Bob," the official said, using a nickname for Mugabe.

"There is stuff happening, there is stuff happening behind the scenes," the official added, declining to elaborate.

But Shamuyarira said America's urging of Mugabe to quit was unacceptable. The next parliamentary elections in Zimbabwe would be in 2005, followed by a presidential election in 2008.

Any notion of bringing forward these dates would not see the light of day.

Shamuyarira said the only way to resolve the crisis was for the US and European Union to accept the results of last year's

presidential election and "work with President Mugabe's elected government".

The elections had been recognised as free and fair by African and Southern African Development Community observers.

"The only group that flatly refused to acknowledge the election was the European Union. We refused to be bound by the EU's racist position.

"If the Americans want to follow the EU, then it's their problem," Shamuyarira said.

The US Assistant Secretary for African affairs, Walter Kansteiner, is visiting Botswana and South Africa later this month, partly to discuss the situation in Zimbabwe.

Zimbabwe has failed to respond to appeals for reform from the Commonwealth and its situation has worsened since suspension, says an internal report by secretary-general Don McKinnon, leaked in London yesterday.
 
 BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE.
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President Robert Gabriel Mugabe. Gee, what a benevolent leader and all-around nice guy.....

quote:
President Robert Gabriel Mugabe is the last of the old African nationalists who rode to power on the colonial winds of change. This year, after months of upheaval in which his two-decade-long grip on government was at last loosened, he flouted the rule of law and Zimbabwe slid into the worst economic decline of its history. The country has never prospered under Mugabe. Hopes for a surge of growth after its 1980 independence from Britain soon faded with an outburst of bloody unrest in Matabeleland, homeland of the Ndebele tribe in Zimbabwe's southwest. In reply, Mugabe sent in a brigade of his notorious North Korean-trained troops "” mostly from his own Shona tribe "” who went on a two-year rampage, torturing and killing thousands of civilians.


Read all about it

quote:
Tobacco farming, which until two years ago brought in a third of Zimbabwe's foreign currency reserves, is now running at just 30% of capacity. Zimbabwe desperately needs this money to pay for imports like fuel and machinery. More than 100,000 farm workers have lost their jobs, pushing unemployment above 60%. As the economy has shriveled "” down 12% this year, according to government figures "” price controls on basic foodstuffs have left supermarket shelves empty. Most remarkably, the country now has two interest rates: a lower rate for exporters and "productive" companies and a much higher one for everybody else.

Read some more...

Bankins
If you refuse to meet their interest then all they have to say is that your election is illegitimate and your leader is a dictator that has to be removed out of office. Was there a U.N personnel watching Zimbabwean elections? What information does Britain and U.S have to say that MUGABE didn't win? This is absolute bullying, the same that is going on in the Middle East.

What Africans need is to liberate African countries from foreign powers and intervention. Africans in general and Zimbabwe in particular should be proud of MUGABE. If other leaders have got one tenth of his courage, Africa would have move some steps forward. Some individuals could do the liberation or a larger group of people, the latter is called REVOLUTION. This liberation is important because it is those foreign powers who put the dictators in power in Africa, by helping them rig elections and selling them weapons of mass destruction on credit, to oppress the citizens and at the detriment of the latter. Iraq is a good example!

There will also be some brainwashed elements willing to destabilize African countries and the efforts of others. They should be ignored! We have to start something, a base on which future black generations will continue to move forward. That is how white people do. Africa's well being will be reflected on all black race.

" Seek knowledge from history and learn from it to be humble enough."
What amazes me is despotic rulers like Mugabe are cheered and defended......

However, you will accuse Republicans and the Bush administration of favoring the rich and big businesses with tax cuts and lucrative contracts, while ignoring the poor folks and doing nothing for the black community.

But when Robert Mugabe does it, Favoring the rich....,
quote:
Most remarkably, the country now has two interest rates: a lower rate for exporters and "productive" companies and a much higher one for everybody else.

.....while doing nothing for the poor...,
quote:
More than 100,000 farm workers have lost their jobs, pushing unemployment above 60%. As the economy has shriveled "” down 12% this year.....

...You want call him courageous!!

There is absolutely no excuse for a country like Zimbabwe to have 60% unemployment. Many of you want to impeach Bush over 6% unemployment!!

So don't hand me that crap about brainwashing!!

Only a fool would defend Mugabe's leadership. I feel very sorry for you, Lipati.

Bankins
I too find it amazing that many black people support evil despot dictators and terrorists. When a person shows that they rejoice or excuse a dictator's or terrorist's evil like UBL and Saddam, then I regard anything they have to say as words of an IDIOT!

They don't know the fundamental difference of right and wrong. REVENGE and HATE supersedes good acts of a government or leaders, as long as Mugabe takes revenge on white people it does not matter how Black people fair under his regime, 60% unemployment and starvation is fine with them, backwards ahz people with old, outdated and broke ideas such as Socialism, Communism, Collectivism and stuck in 17 CE stagnant and intolerant religion with no hope of ever updating or correcting it's doctines are nothing but anvils to the human race.

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.

[This message was edited by JuneBug on April 18, 2003 at 08:46 AM.]
Irrespective of his political idealogies, or the means he wishes to go about ruling his country, who in hell gives the USA a right to change a regime and interfere with international politics? The U.S. government is a terrorist one (supplying financial and military aid to Israel, 'nuff said) yet no one can make alterations to their government. Who's intitiating wars and bloodshed at the moment? A "peaceful" government?
quote:
who in hell gives the USA a right to change a regime and interfere with international politics?


The People of the USA, Congress gave the President that power.

And if you Arabs continue to bring that Islamic terrorists shiyt over to our shores, more regime changes in the Middle East are ahead! Syria will be next if it does not stop occupying Lebenon and start jailing terrorists instead of making a home for them and change it's backward view of the world.

Keep fukin with us and find out.

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Junebug, you're right on the nose. The sad thing is that anything B Bankins had to say in his last post even NEEDED to be said.

Lipati, I REALLY, REALLY wish you would wake up. In what ways exactly do you figure the black people in Zimbabwe will be better off once his policies have reached their goals?


Call me what you want. I don't give a fuck what you think of me!! What I know I live it, poverty, despotism, and oppression not YOU, and I don't need to justify anything to delusional people in AmeriKKKa. So you go on believing the crap, the biased news your xenophobic and racist government feed you and I'll believe what I SEE, what I LIVE! If hypocrites, anti-MUGABE people like you cared so much about human rights abuses, you would have made sure that a majority of farmers in Zimbabwe were NATIVES and that wealth was evenly distributed. Now you're angry because MUGABE kicked neocolonialism in the ass. More AfriKan nations will follow MUGABES'S lead. Europeans must be content with their own natural resources so that they can stop exploiting people in 3rd world countries. It's about time. Yes, MUGABE, has my support as world wide from people aware of these deceptive tactics to continue the exploitation of Black people.

" Seek knowledge from history and learn from it to be humble enough."
Like Malcolm X said, "We's" sick...amazing how blacks can support imperialistic actions abroad while geting their own civil rights and educational/professional opportunities rolled back on here. They are willing to fight abroad but not fight for equality here.....simply amazing...and Junebug, when
9-11 becomes a regular way of life here....just keep your enthusiasm level the same.........if it does happen, i will not be phased one bit......as Noah would say, every action brings about a reaction....go figure
it's IMMATURE when Arab/Muslim world constantly blame Jews and America for all of their problems. Instead of demonstrating against their corrupt governments for lack of available opportunities, freedoms and resources, the Arab and Muslim are so mentally immature and warped by religion they accept with glee the lies of dictators, Islamic facsists who maintain power through shifting blame from themselves onto Israel, America and Western culture.

America will not pacify the Arab/Muslim facsist by ignoring their immoral behavior and childish accusations. It's Immature that Arabs and Muslims violently protest a war to liberate the people of Iraq, whining about the hundreds of innocents who were accidentally killed, while maintaining silence during the torture and murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis under Saddam for 30 plus years. Apparently, Arabs love depot rulers like Saddam proven by the fact there is not one damn Arab democracy. Arabs love Dictators and Devils to rule over them!

Of course, the murder of one million Black Africans by the Muslim regime in Sudan is totally irrelevant because the Koran excuses it, infidels don't have rights.

You see, types like you AQ have absolutely NO moral ground to be so damn sanctimonious, kiss my grits!

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.

[This message was edited by JuneBug on April 18, 2003 at 11:35 AM.]
quote:
Originally posted by ArabianQueen:
posted April 18, 2003 10:47 AM
You're unbelievably pathetic ... so is American politics with its "let's change it freedom fries." How immature! No wonder the world is in turmoil. And remember two years ago what happened to your shores when you f*cked with an Arab?




Yeah, and let's see what happens to Arabs the next time it happens!!! The people here will want blood....and they will GET IT!!! I'm sure you don't remember, but the reason why the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour is because they thought America was a bunch of push overs. Well afterwards I think it was the Emporer himself who said, "I think we have awoken the sleeping GIANT!!"

So go ahead, f*ck with us!!!
quote:
Originally posted by IndependentMan:
Yeah, and let's see what happens to Arabs the next time it happens!!! The people here will want blood....and they will GET IT!!!... So go ahead, f*ck with us!!!

This sort of rhetoric is a threat to mankind!

You raged against what was done to civilians on 9/11, but herald the pain you are inflicting or wish to inflict on MANY citizens around the world. How very two-faced all of you hawks out there are! Give me a break!!

" Seek knowledge from history and learn from it to be humble enough."
quote:
Originally posted by Lipati:
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
Junebug, you're right on the nose. The sad thing is that anything B Bankins had to say in his last post even NEEDED to be said.

Lipati, I REALLY, REALLY wish you would wake up. In what ways exactly do you figure the black people in Zimbabwe will be better off once his policies have reached their goals?


Call me what you want. I don't give a fuck what you think of me!! What I know I live it, poverty, despotism, and oppression not YOU, and I don't need to justify anything to delusional people in AmeriKKKa. So you go on believing the crap, the biased news your xenophobic and racist government feed you and I'll believe what I SEE, what I LIVE! If hypocrites, anti-MUGABE people like you cared so much about human rights abuses, you would have made sure that a majority of farmers in Zimbabwe were NATIVES and that wealth was evenly distributed. Now you're angry because MUGABE kicked neocolonialism in the ass. More AfriKan nations will follow MUGABES'S lead. Europeans must be content with their own natural resources so that they can stop exploiting people in 3rd world countries. It's about time. Yes, MUGABE, has my support as world wide from people aware of these deceptive tactics to continue the exploitation of Black people.




Instead of jumping on me about what you think I think about you, why don't you take a look at my question and answer it. The only way you can successfully tell me off is by effectively presenting me with info (or an idea) that effectively challenges or rebuts what I've said. I asked you a specific question: "how will black people in Zimbabwe be better off once Mugabe's policies have reached their goals?"

If you can show me info that shows how you think we'll be better off under what he's doing, then we've accomplished something. If not, and you just support Mugabe just because whatever, regardless of what his policies will do to our people, then you can use all the exclamation points and invectives against me that you want. You're still wrong, and you still advocate the suffering of our people.
quote:
Call me what you want. I don't give a fuck what you think of me!! What I know I live it, poverty, despotism, and oppression not YOU,


And you will die in it with your backward and self-destructive mentality. Hate America all you want with your attitude no one will have enough pity for you and save you from your own ignorance!

I have absolutely no pity for you and don't come back with that "I don't want your pity" because if that is the case, stop waving your pitiful lifestyle as if it is a badge of honor! It aint shiyt!


The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.
Junebug,

Look at history and you will see that most people have a reason to hate america to some extent or another.

I saw a poster that said, "show me a black man who is not somewhat angry and i'll show you a fool or a corpse"....i mean think about it....blacks are dying on behalf of this country for an industry that does not even include us and at the same time are getting their educational opportunities limited when they come back. don't you think some smaller companies of color could have been included in the contracts given to clean up in Iraq? think about it, there are qualified blacks in every industry you can name....and black people do pay taxes.....so since when blacks request social programs they are called dependent and beggars and all....how about if they WORK to MAKE some of their own tax dollars back........

and you talk about her life ain't shit....what about a negro who benefitted from liberal policies and gains in the past, become the first negro in their family to escape jim crow azzz poverty and then tries to cop, "the white man's posture" with that conservative bullshit as if they can speak from the premise of privelege, wealth and inclusion.......now THAT is what is really pitiful......
All the Liberal Democrats want to do is keep you and me on the Plantation, their Socialist Plantation at that!

Look, it aint really about Liberals and Conservatives it is about INDEPENDENCE. Conservatives don't always have it right neither do Liberals and both have good ideas. Leave it up to Independent voters like me, the swing voter to make the right decisions.

If you want to be a faithful slave to a Liberal ideology just because they threw us a few crumbs, be my guest but Liberals are not in vogue right now because they will appease and excuse the Islamic fascists movement in the world today. I will vote G-Dub AGAIN!

When the Democrats put up someone worth voting for and vows not to turn America into some kind of Euro style Socialist government then I will vote for that candidate.

Nevertheless, we need to do what is right and in my eyes right now, speaking as an independent voter, Liberals are not the right people who should be running things right now. If Bush screws up enough and the Democrats put somebody up worth voting for, then I will vote Democrat but as long Bush keeps putting his West Texas Boot up the Ahz'z of Backward Arab Terrorists and Dictators then I will continue back G-Dub, my Dogg!

Democrats are no better than Republicans when it comes to Black concerns, they day you wake up to that will be a day of your INDEPENDENCE. Remember, Democrats are about you and me being DEPENDENT, on THEM, not about US being INDEPENDENT and SELF RELYING. Republicans really don't give a damn about Black issues but at least they are not trying to fool us and use our vote to make ALL of US DEPENDENT on the Socialist Government they want to install and put the UN as some kind of government above America to boot, naw, hell naw!

I will burn this Muthafukka Down before ANYONE turn this government into some kind of Socialist State and a subject of UN Authority!

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.
Bro,

you blacks can speak for your damn self when it comes to that plantation shit....academically, philosophically, financially or otherwise am I bound to anything or anyone. even our chrstian religion with its "be a good slave origin"....i read and examine but never get absorbed into that ideological box or any other one....


and yes, the conservative/liberal thing is a farce....but i must say, when a black takes it upon himself to disavow the mindset of the majority of their own race as backwards, stupid, slave thinking and cannot even justify their own political philosophy in terms of why they agree to things that have clear detremental policy outcomes on blacks, then they are the problem and the slave thinker, not me for bringing it to their attention. so maybe you need to read this link and see how the black conservative's thinking transcends logic and borders on psychological thinking in terms of how it is an attempt to disavow and distance themselves from the majority of their people.....from ward connerly who made millions off of AA contracts to clarence thomas who grew up in dire poverty and refuses to acknowledge AA helped escalate him to the highest levels of acheivement that this country knows, (yes, if you grew up pissing in an outhouse most likely you could not afford to go to yale) then there is a problem on THEIR part, not mine

and as so far as the arab terrorists.....no WMD, no Sadaam, no Osama....that is all just a bunch of american propoganda bullsh-t to get you flag waving loyalists distracted why other countries get gutted for their resources and you do not check your 401k to see how it has been depleted and Cheney and the oil/energy crooks rob people blind and take your tax dollars and give their homies contracts. Tax cuts to stimulate the economy? yeah right...that just lines the pockets of the rich while the rest can buy themselves a club outfit or something.


And iv'e been independent bro, all my life...i had Dr. in front of my name since my early thirties....and have made cash in other places unsupervised by whitey or anyone else...but my reality is what drives my views....because while enduring racist bullsh-t, progressing and still speaking my mind and being resented by colonized assimilationst, apologist negroes....I had a chance how to see how it really goes...and as so far as AA, negroes have been programmed all wrong.....being involved in higher education over the last 20 years as a student or part-time professor, i see how black opportunities are being curtailed while mediocre white students are just skating through......so don't tell me shit about independence, because not only do i not believe the shi-t whites feed us on TV, only a small number of blacks seem to have not been programmed, remain competitive and successful without compromising their values or the self-interest of the black masses.....and that is who i deal with...the rest of them....black and white can finish living out their mental afflictions and lack of self-adequacy without my intervention. And since every right your black azz and mine have gained for the last 40 years had to be forced through legislation from a liberal, inclusive slant, please tell me how the two parties are the same....that is what i hear all the time but it is never explained to me. so i guess you can start with anti-lynching laws, integration, voting rights, affirmative action, racial profiling, hate crimes, redlining and tell me what the majority black opinion is on each of these topics and which party seemed to be more aligned with black majority thought.....
quote:
and as so far as the arab terrorists.....no WMD, no Sadaam, no Osama....that is all just a bunch of american propoganda bullsh-t to get you flag waving loyalists distracted why other countries get gutted for their resources and you do not check your 401k to see how it has been depleted and Cheney and the oil/energy crooks rob people blind and take your tax dollars and give their homies contracts. Tax cuts to stimulate the economy? yeah right...that just lines the pockets of the rich while the rest can buy themselves a club outfit or something.



That sounds like a bunch of Liberal Propaganda to me. Aye man Democrats do the same shiyt so are you as independent as you say you are? Sound like a loyal Liberal to me.

Here is my beef with Black Conservatives, they do not seem very jealous for Black People, in fact here is a list of my concerns but I can come up with a similar lists for Democrats too. This I posted here on AA.org about a year ago. G-Dubb is still my Dogg as long as he Keeps His Boot where it's been Wink

I don't vote Democrat just because 95% of Black people do. Frankly Democrats do not have black concerns as a high priority. Being part of the majority does not make it right, YOU as a black man should know this. I'm not part of a Monolith Collective like many black folks would like us to be, that is part of the problem. We are not Independent of the Democratic Party and that is why the Democrats take us for granted they know they don't have to do nothing special to get our vote. They can send their catch dogs like Sharpton and Jesse to Scare up the Black Vote. We vote them in with 95% of our vote and we black folk get ignored.

Oh yeah, my list regarding Black Conservatives. Sorry Bankins, I know you did not like this list but this is the perception of what most black people see in Black Conservatives.

quote:
1. Black Conservatives are not trying to change Black thought but appear to be USED by White Conservatives to proclaim White Conservative ideas in Black Face.

2. It appears that each and every idea a Black Conservative have were adopted from White Conservatives.

3. Black conservatives do not involve themselves with Black oriented organizations. Such as the NAACP and the Urban League. If Black Conservatives want to be the catalyst for change in the Black Community, it must be done from inside the Black community. If you are not willing to rub elbows with those in the Black Community then Black Conservative will never make any impact on Black thought. And viewed with disgrace by Black people in general.

4. Black Conservatives rarely speak out in the interest of Black people.

5. White Conservatives take Black Conservatives for granted i.e. JC Watts. Republicans did not even take care of the ONLY BLACK REPUBLICAN IN WASHINGTON, that was shameful and personally it hurt my trust in Republicans in general. Blacks see no advantage being a Black Conservative.

6. Black Conservatives appear of not doing much in the Black community.

7. In general Black Conservatives never Blame White America for the horrible Wrongs done to Black America, they appear to be apologist for them or silent. There are examples on this board, when I laid out my argument regarding Affirmative Action not one self-proclaimed Black Conservative had a thing to say. Black Conservatives do not give credit to Black issues when they are righteous but remain silent. However, Colin Powell stood before White Conservatives at a Republican Convention and told them like it was and got booed by White Republicans. I was so proud of Colin that I went out and bought his book.
BB I did see your topic about how the Black Farmer was and is being screwed, I who have black family who are still in the farming business appreciated it and was surprised that you had any interest in that subject. That was a rarity indeed from one who claim to be Black a Conservative.

8. Black Conservatives appear to be White apologists.

9. When racist shiyt hits the fan against Black people Black Conservatives are nowhere to be found.

10. Black conservatives need to get that word conservative off the label because to most black people the word conservative have racist connotations. Conservative means to leave things as they were, black people want CHANGE.

11. Black Conservatives rarely take white people to the woodshed when they say stupid things but remain silent but will jump all over black people over trivial matters.

12. Black Conservative appear to be empty of ideas that focus on helping the Black community.

13. Black Conservatives appear to be ashamed of being Black.



Wink

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.
No problem Junebug....

I'm quite comfortable with my Conservative opinions, and proud of them. It's Liberals who have the unfortunate position of explaining their failed ideas.

You are entitled to whatever belief is comfortable with you. As you know, I responded to that list back then, and I never took offense against you for it.

You and Vox are among the few on this forum I respect. That will not change because you don't agree with me.

What drives me nuts is the constant postings that white/black/Conservative/Republican/rich is evil and greedy. But this country is not Iraq or Zimbabwe. I don't believe there has ever been 60% unemployment among the black community at any time in this country.

But just read some of the postings from the "enlightened ones" here and you would think we are still in chains working the cotton fields!

America is not perfect, and life here can surely be improved. That won't happen with Socialistic leaning Liberals who want this country to emulate Europe. I have actually heard Liberal Congresspersons in interviews say the USA is too powerful and has more than the rest of the world, and that is unfair!!

To me, this is scary comming from people who took an oath to uphold the Constitution. These people must never again control the Executive and Legislative branches of our government.

Also, last years elections, plus the successful execution of the war against terrorism vindicates everything I've posted here and on other forums. For now, my party is making the right calls and mostly doing the right things.

Black America has a choice; Continue to embrace the Civil Rights Industry crowd and find racism and discord in every snowflake, continue to be used by white liberal politicians who take full advantage of that discord.....

...Or actively participate in the growth and development of this wonderful country and enjoy the successful fruits of that labor!!

And since so many posters here love to use quotes of wisdom, how about this.....

"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for life."

Bankins

[This message was edited by B Bankins on April 18, 2003 at 06:31 PM.]
Lipati...

First of all, the elections were witnessed not only by the U.N. but by observers from at least 10 different countries!! Including this one. The only country who sat on the fence about the rampant irregularities involving that election was South Africa ... and even that was way after the fact!! Eek

Secondly, Mugabe is a pig. And while his idea of land reform was noble and may have been coming from principle that was very much justified and long overdue, the fact of the matter is that he is a murderer, a torturer of hundreds of people. Most of these people are not those White farmers, but his own people, his own citizens ... fellow Africans who happen to know agree with his political policy.

To say that you give your support and admiration to a man who has been responsible for tearing the skin from the backs of fellow human beings with whips and canes, mothers being raped in front of their husbands and children, electrical shock being administered to the breasts and tesiticles of countless men and women, having them drink their own urine, people being arrested and tortured with no charges being brought against them, etc., etc., etc., means there is something lacking in your own sense of human decency. I know you are an angry and upset individual. That is obvious, but, I should hope that when you gave your devotion to a man guilty of such crimes against humanity earlier in this thread, you inadvertantly mis-spoke!

I am all for Black Power, but as the ruler of a country, to make such policy changes without having an intelligent plan of action on how to do it, is just plain old ignorant. Mugabe is a stupid man. He wanted to be great. He wanted to be admired and innovative. What he has become is violent, dictative ruler of a country whose people are starving and dying by the day. Whose people cannot find jobs, who have no gas or energy, who's economy is non-existent. He is the ruler of a crippled and broken land. And it is all his fault. The worst part is, he still has no plan to make what he has done right. To fix what he has done and make his country prosper. But he still finds the time to order more tortures and killings. He still finds the time to blame others for the mistakes he has made.
Hello mr. JuneBug, and Mr. Bankins,

"What amazes me is despotic rulers like Mugabe are cheered and defended......

However, you will accuse Republicans and the Bush administration of favoring the rich and big businesses with tax cuts and lucrative contracts, while ignoring the poor folks and doing nothing for the black community.

But when Robert Mugabe does it, Favoring the rich....," Well said Mr. Bankins

If I were you, I wouldn't waste any more time, or energy, debating the pros and cons of being a conservative, etc., with Kevin41. As for Kevin41, Lipati, and/or others who continue to place the blame of misfortune of Black people, even in instances where Black people are or have been their own worst enemies, it would behoove those who are truly rational to refrain from responding to such foolishness. It is definitely a huge misnomer to blame the plight and total destruction of Black people on:

A. Racism.

B. Every Caucasian dead or alive, that walks or has walked the planet.

C. Any combination of A or B.

The many truly innocent, and kind Black people thoughout the planet who are or have been:

D. Mis-educated and/or egregiously mis-represented by the elite and/or educated class within the ranks of the "Whos, Whos" of the leadership and/or lesser rankings of Black people within the U.S. and other territories around the world.

E. Robbed or raped.

F. Deceived, cheated, and/or lied to.

G. Maimed or killed.

....face these very deadly and counter-productive virtually daily experiences not at the hands or thoughts of Caucasians, but rather through the mis-deeds, mis-guided thoughts, and/or disgraceful actions of you guessed it, other Black people.

Good topic though. Just shows that there are other places around the world to which other Black people praise misfits, and condemn those worthy of praise.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on April 22, 2003 at 10:49 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by JuneBug:
And you will die in it with your backward and self-destructive mentality. Hate America all you want with your attitude no one will have enough pity for you and save you from your own ignorance!

I have absolutely no pity for you and don't come back with that "I don't want your pity" because if that is the case, stop waving your pitiful lifestyle as if it is a badge of honor! It aint shiyt!

If you are black, and you agree with overt racist policies, check your thinking. You would rather help the right-wingers drag the U.S down than paying attention to the concerns and SUFFERING of your brothers and sisters in the Diaspora!? Go on, keep adding to the list of enemies of AmeriKKKa terrorism recruits. People like you have already evoked a worldwide anti-AmeriKKKan sentiment that is unprecedented. Do you really feel safer now that the sick bastards who pull the strings of your government toppled an almost defenseless regime and pissed off a billion Muslims and the whole world at the same at the same time? Motherland has suffered a great disaster due to the Atlantic Slave Trade and colonialism. A significant number of dictators in Africa have been placed in power by the U.S and Europe and then maintained by them, such as: Mobutu here or Amin and Bokassa. Progressive governments have been removed by external forces such as Lamumba's, Sakara's, Toure's, Nkrumah's. If Africa is to blame for political and economic backwardness, then it is the fault of the West. I'm certainly not going to stop blaming them for that when they are making the world a horrible and more dangerous place for me and my people.

" Seek knowledge from history and learn from it to be humble enough."

[This message was edited by Lipati on April 19, 2003 at 08:21 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
_Lipati_...

First of all, the elections were witnessed not only by the U.N. but by observers from at least 10 different countries!! Including this one. The only country who sat on the fence about the rampant irregularities involving that election was South Africa ... and even that was way after the fact!! Eek

Secondly, Mugabe is a pig. And while his idea of land reform was noble and may have been coming from principle that was very much justified and long overdue, the fact of the matter is that he is a murderer, a torturer of hundreds of people. Most of these people are _not_ those White farmers, but his own people, his own citizens ... fellow Africans who happen to know agree with his political policy.

To say that you give your support and admiration to a man who has been responsible for tearing the skin from the backs of fellow human beings with whips and canes, mothers being raped in front of their husbands and children, electrical shock being administered to the breasts and tesiticles of countless men and women, having them drink their own urine, people being arrested and tortured with no charges being brought against them, etc., etc., etc., means there is something lacking in your own sense of human decency. I know you are an angry and upset individual. That is obvious, but, I should hope that when you gave your devotion to a man guilty of such crimes against humanity earlier in this thread, you inadvertantly mis-spoke!

I am all for Black Power, but as the ruler of a country, to make such policy changes without having an intelligent plan of action on how to do it, is just plain old ignorant. Mugabe is a stupid man. He wanted to be great. He wanted to be admired and innovative. What he has become is violent, dictative ruler of a country whose people are starving and dying by the day. Whose people cannot find jobs, who have no gas or energy, who's economy is non-existent. He is the ruler of a crippled and broken land. And it is all his fault. The worst part is, he still has no plan to make what he has done right. To fix what he has done and make his country prosper. But he still finds the time to order more tortures and killings. He still finds the time to blame others for the mistakes he has made.


Whatever...Some African countires make the mistake of calling foreigners to judge the faireness of their elections. If mugabe hard not implemented the land reform in Zimbabwe, he would still be the best ally of the West. The latter would have validated the election in Zimbabwe. Is that too difficult to see?

" Seek knowledge from history and learn from it to be humble enough."

lipati...

Your response is whatever?? Confused Confused Yeah, okay. Roll Eyes Well, I guess that in itself proves enough of my point!! Eek

But, while you're at it, you can add this bit of knowledge (or possibly lack thereof) of U.S.-African relations. The U.S. and African countries have never shared the "busom buddy" type of relationship. Other than the Clinton Administration, I can't think of another one that even said they cared, let alone showed any kind of real and earnest attempt to call Africa a friend!!

The stance and sanctions currently being imposed by the U.S. on Zimbabwe are done more as a follower than a leader of trying to correct the problems that country is currently facing. Britian opposes (and is currently more concerned with) what Mugabe is doing and we're backing them as it relates to the human rights violations happening there. Yes White people are upset with what has happened to the White people there, but I can assure you, as far as the U.S. gov't. is concerned, it's not our problem, and we really, deep down inside don't care. Eek And never have.

So please don't think for a moment that Mugabe's "land reform" is the sole reason for the economic sanctions and occasional ravings of Bush on the subject. The only reason we are as involved as we are with Zimbabwe is because other countries with a shred of decency are recognizing that Mugabe's actions are destablizing more than his country, more than his people, and even more than the immediate region. He's a crazy man getting crazier by the minute ... and he needs to be stopped because he is a dangerous psychopath .. and is becoming out of control!
Junebug,

When it comes to the stance of what black people deem appropriate or in our self-interest is what drives my decision, not some damn party tag. And to keep it on a simple level, policy outcomes are the thing, measurable end results. When outcomes result in reduced professional and educational opportunities or loss of services or programs, there is nothing some negro who sees taking these kinds of losses okay....plain and simple. So we can fade the issue of whether i'm independent or not...I get mine on my own, but I do not operate or see myself as a seperate entity from the majority of black people.......our interests and reality coincide.....so if that makes me not independent, well so be it......


So yeah, maybe Lofton is right...it is probably a waste of time talking to me...because whenever I see anything that tends to be detremental to black people, I do not agree with or even consider agreeing with that particular issue. I can listen well, but to rationale and not apologist rhetoric......and for those who decry past gains that were established through policy efforts, they should be the ones who present viable alternatives that rival or exceed the outcomes of the intiatives they decry....that is fair enough...until then, they're just sitting on the sidelines blowing hot smoke out of their azzes with no intent of being beneficial to black people as a whole, just their dammie........
What amazes me is that flag flying all up in the house. What exactly is the celebration; that 160,000 days ago, our ancestors were "forced into glory"? All I see leaders anywhere do, is get zillions of innocent folks cooked up, fried, laid to the side, to further their objectives. Another thing that amazes me is the idolization folks place upon these leaders, don't care what color they are, who they are. Right now, when I see any religious human praying to God, it's a cause for severe regurgitation for me. I can't believe the destruction humans do to humans. It's getting ridiculous and has been for ions.
There are national interests and world interest too, that is in our best interest, Black interest that is.

Yes, I share many of the points you make regarding our self-interest.

But I do not share many of the same interests that the Democratic Party stands for.

Socialism, Big government, High taxes, weak military, weak National Security, appeasement for the Radical Islamic movement , these issues can help us and hurt us depending how they are handled. These issues, if handled correctly will also benefit Black people all over the world. This is not the time for the Democratic Party and I hope they stay out of power for the next 3 presidential terms unless the Democrats open their eyes and plan with long term geopolitical insight. At this point I don't see it. I do appreciate some of what the Democratic Party stands for but the issues I think are most important the Liberals are on the opposing side at this point.

I wish I could speak more frankly because what I really would like to say would offend some. Perhaps, I will send you something off line but I wish the truth gets out on what really is the biggest threat toward human freedom and the real threat of thought control and domination of the world, what I speak of is real.

I really don't know what the answer is but an experiment is going on in Iraq as we speak. If the experiment in Iraq does not work, I hope the free world tries repeatedly until it is successful.

I will find a more diplomatic way to say what has to be said, I think we are living in a very critical time in human history, not just for Black people but for all.

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.
EbonyRose,

We can spend a lot of time talking about the rights and wrongs of Mugabe regime and how he has destroyed the Zimbabwe economy but we should not miss this point. Land reform and ownership takes precedence over any other issue. No land means basically No Nation. I have been in countries in Europe where it is illegal for a Foreigner to own any land, you must be a blood national of the country to own any land. This goes to show the sanctity of Land. A few other examples about how are other nations relate to land. Palestine-Arabs mourn about loss of land to Jewish settlers and are ever in confrontation with the Jews. During the Second World War countries that were on the losing side in Europe had large portions of their land annexed and given to their neighbors as punishment for supporting the third Reich. The point is nothing is more important than acquiring back our land. They should not stand between us and our land. You condemn Mugabe human rights violations but do not condemn the British government killing of millions of Africans/Zimbabweans through INVASION, CASTRATION, MASSACRE AND SLAVERY. How long are we Africans and all people of African descent going to pretend not to see whom our Real tormentors are..

" Seek knowledge from history and learn from it to be humble enough."

[This message was edited by Lipati on April 20, 2003 at 12:17 AM.]
Lipati:

I really enjoy reading your posts. I don't know a lot about what's going on in Zimbabwe or about Mugabe. I've heard and read snippets here and there about the situation though. I know that it's about land and about the redistribution of it to the native people there. I also remember reading that recently, Bush passed some type of ruling to impose sanctions on Zimbabwe.

Please continue to expound.
Lipati, I agree with your statement regarding the land reform. Again, I must say that Mugabe was not demonized until he implemented his land reform. Now they are bringing up these things he is doing to the people. He didn't just start doing these things when he kicked out all of the European farmers, but the European nations didn't care until he threatened them by taking back land which rightfully belongs to the people of Zimbabwe.
Knowing the propaganda campaigns England and the U.S. have launched against various leaders of the past that have threatened European dominance, one looking at this situation might be skeptical of the U.S. and their motives.

You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom.
Malcolm X, 1965
Well Junebug,

If you see the present state of the economy and financial infrastructure, potential global military destabilization, national security threats here based on actions abroad and the systematic rollback of educational and professional opportunities that blacks utilize as a new norm that satisfies you and what you wish for a continuation of, then I might as well shut the hell up.


I don't know....I must be missing the whole concept of what the hell a black person is supposed to be...I thought we were supposed to get ours without ever compromising our dignity or value system, always think in terms of the race as a whole and not our damn selves as individuals and never ever ever, under any means disagree with anything that gave someone black that was less fortunate a leg up on life, give a damn what non-blacks thought about it.

It seems like quite a few of us do not quite see it that way on a consistent basis.....Our motivation comes and goes based on the level of self-benefit only....and that is pretty messed up....based on the amount of things that others have done on behalf of every black in america, whether that person realizes they benefitted from those efforts or not.


Well, every since allot of people became elated when W got his flaky election decision, things cannot be considered to be great..I mean, look at the job losses and the overall crash of the economy and stock markets....I think W1 & W2 have had the exact same number of job losses together that was created during Clinton's two terms....about 2.5 million...that can be interpreted any way you like...as so far as the deficit, I wonder if taxes will go up...kinda "read my lips" style....because I inagine the war will have to be paid for and still maintain existing programs, Social Security....just think if that would have gotten involved with Enron...it was proposed.

But at this point, there is no need for the liberal/conservatibe yadi yadi on the part of black people any more. Black people are smart enought to see what is their own best-interest, the masses do not need a few prize negroes telling them they all do not know how to think....and politically, no matter where a piece of legislation comes from.....black people are smart enough to comprehend what in the hell is an adverse policy outcome.

So putting all those labels aside, there is a concept of one being pro-black in their thinking....but before one assigns themselves that label.....they should really be able to explain the logic and rationale for their slant on the issues beyond their personal opinions and based more on some tangible favorable outcome on behalf of the black masses and not a few individuals like themselves.
I guess what I'm about to say is going to disappoint you Brah. I'm broader than my race, you?


My identity and personal worth are not primarily determined by my ethnicity, I'm more diverse than my race.

quote:
I don't know....I must be missing the whole concept of what the hell a black person is supposed to be...I thought we were supposed to get ours without ever compromising our dignity or value system, always think in terms of the race as a whole and not our damn selves as individuals and never ever ever, under any means disagree with anything that gave someone black that was less fortunate a leg up on life, give a damn what non-blacks thought about it.



What you are implying is that people have worthwhile views because of their ethnicity, Black ideas, White ideas and Asain ideas, that one's individual thoughts and actions are determined by racial heritage.

This is exactly the basis held by slave-owners and the Nazis'. They too believed that an individual's thoughts and actions are determined by racial heritage. No thank you I will think and believe as a free agent.

That Kevin is the fundamental difference between us. I would rather be free to question what is encouraged by the majority of my race to accept, simply because I share the same ethnicity. My ethnicity is not the central factor that determines who I am.

I am certainly jealous for my people, but that does not imply that I am not diverse in my thoughts and actions that include supporting my race. I am a man of action who conduct business, volunteer, who give money and time and work hard in supporting my race but within my own sensibilities, my ethnicity do not own me.

As I said I do believe that socialism, big government, high taxes, weak military, weak national security, appeasement for the Radical Islamic movement are against our own benefit issues which I and Democrats are on different sides, that's how I see it. That is not abandoning black people. I am a big advocate of creating a black business and education culture; I'm for black financial independence, which I think can never be attained through the Democratic Party or any Party. The Democrats, want people dependent on big government, I will not support that. The last time I checked, 35 cents out of each tax dollar is sent back to the public, this is not the most efficient use of our tax dollars, there are other and better ways to handle the country's business and all those ideas are not owned by the Democratic Party.

Trust me, I am a man of action moved by jealousy for my people, just because I am not a loyal Liberal or Democrat does not reflect badly on me or anyone else. I am moved to work to be more independent from the negative circumstances we find ourselves in. However, big government, high taxes, weak military and poor national security and pacifying those who vow to destroy us are not to our overall benefit.

It's about thinking "out of the box", we as black people should realize this we have been doing the same thing for the last 20 years and have not accelerated out of some of our worse circumstances, actually in many repects we are doing worse or have not improved.

For example, about 49 percent of U.S. murder victims are black, over 95 percent of them killed by other blacks.

More than 80% of black children are born into single parent families, the overwhelming majority of single parents are female which increases the possiblity of poverty and juvenile delenquence and under acheivment.

On the 2000 National Assessment of Educational Progress reading assessment national test that gauges states academic progress, 40 percent of white fourth graders scored at or above proficient, compared to only 12 percent of their African American peers.

In math, African American achievement also lagged"”35 percent of white fourth graders scored at or above proficient, and just five percent of African Americans scored as high achievers.
The racial achievement gap is real, and it is not shrinking.


The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.

[This message was edited by JuneBug on April 20, 2003 at 09:34 PM.]

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