quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
*Yeah i was more hostile in terms of how expressive I was of my resentment of black conservatives (house negroes)...until I learned that they are forever in awe of white people and can not be rehabilitated.....i'm kool now....i just feel sorry for ya'll.......

rotflmao

You were hostile because facts and substantiation were always provided and you could not refute it. This is why people like you become hostile and insulting. I'm not in "awe" of white people at all. No need to feel sorry for me. I can compete with any white person, or black, or Asian, etc. Thank you very much!!!


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
***Yeah, that is what people who do not have the balls to put in the work say to discredit those who have put in waaay more work. That is crystal clear to see through. Common sense is what tells you to get a Ph.D. in the first place....... bs

rotflmao

I have seen many people at work and in the university who have Ph.Ds and cannot walk and chew gum at the same time. So your assertion is completely wrong. Book smarts and common sense are competely mutually exclusive.


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
**Tell me where I used racism as an excuse EXCLSIVELY like you people like to portray....and tell me that you were able to overlook all the volumes I have written in regards to blacks attaining education and learning normal socialization of children as a basis for changing social conditions....you people are a trip in terms of what you choose to overlook.....find where in the f-k i eluded to racism as the sole problem of black people.....show your own damn comprehension skills in terms of what point you saw that in my posts.... bs



Not only are YOUR comprehension skills lacking, but also YOUR memory. This is throughout most of your posts. Anyone with a 3rd grade reading level would be able to decipher this. I too, have also pointed specifically here and at TBWT of cases where blacks attained high education and were for all practical purposes, middle class, in the late 1800's, early 1900s without any of the policies that you hold so dear and you insulted me and out down what I was saying. You really need to grow up, Kev, it's time.


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
*** Like I explained earlier....disagree with what you like but substantiate it.....do not come in here with vague rhetoric and think it will supercede facts..............and if you think your post is being twisted, learn to articulate more clearly and you may not have that problem...... bs

I do have opinions, like everyone else. But I do provide substantiation in the form of articles, statistics, and I will even post the URL where I obtained the information. But Kev, most people in here whether they agree with me or not, will be able to figure out what I am saying. It is really ONLY YOU who twists what I, and others whom you disagree with, are posting. So it's not a matter of my articulation, it is either a) your reading comprehension, or b) Your agenda, folks like you have the tendency to attack the messenger when you encounter facts you do not like, that's what liberalism is all about, or c) all of the above


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
***** Save the orgasm dude and read my post that rebutted such nonsense.....You people imply on other's behalf....I make direct statements and if they are not repeated verbatum, then it is just some shit YOU said.......... bs

rotflmao

Not having an orgasm, Kev, just stating a FACT. I don't imply on other people behalf. I state this is what I think te=hey mean, but they would be able to better explain it themselves.


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
**Let me ask you MOM, what in my life as I have described it makes YOU think i'm a victim or what is it I have said about my travels,accomplishments and upbringing is indicative of someone who was victimized? Do not get that confused with efforts of those who intended to victimize me but did not succeed. Please answer specifically where I indicated that........


It's throughout all your posts, Kev. That's what I cannot figure out. With all you have accomplished, you still seem to be a very angry, bitter man. This is the vibe I get from your posts, even your posts when discussing with people with whom your are in agreement with!!! Not saying it is, but it's just the feeling I get. And in my travels and experiences, people who are angry and bitter treat and talk to people the same way you do, regardless of ethnicity.
You see Kev, I am very content and secure within myself. So contrary to what you may believe, I am not out to prove to whites that I am different or whatever. I don't care what whites think or anyone else. I am going to be who I want to be. This is why I keep coming back!!!


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
*** Yes but did they do it as widespread as in the time where EQUAL opportunity was ATTEMPTED....or do you think blacks are supposed to have to acheive under the burden of jim crow to get theirs like they had to 100 years ago? Are you saying that should be the natural operating environment for black people?(jim crow conditions).....are black people actually SUPPOSED to have a burden of being black....or do you think they did not back then?.........please answer specifically


See, this is where you have blantantly twisted what I have said previously. You know yourself that I NEVER defended Jim Crow, or any sort of discrimination, NEVER!!! What I DID say is that many blacks were achieving under these adverse conditions AND if it could be done so then, it can be done TODAY. You know as well as I do that it is much easier today. This is what I said, and you know it!!! But you see, the people who achieved 100 years ago, took a personal and moral responsiblity upon themselves, something that is lacking in many black communities today. This is what you do not like. You would rather BLAME society for these ills, which as I have stated to you MANY, MANY times before, society does play a part, but not in the way you belive. Let's be honest, Kev!!!!


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
***No MOM (Independent Man).....you dismissed the works of reknown black academics as partisan BS....remember the JBHE timeline about the conservative (just like you claim you are) efforts to end affirmative action...and the resultant drops in black college enrollment.......that you dismissed as biased nonsense....oh how we forget.....I gave you a factual graphic and you looked the other way....what a black man!!!!! And a PhD. doesn't mean the world, but you just have to tell that to self-hating black people who think all blacks have limited comprehension skills like the stereotypes white promote and they worship......you have to give them a point of reference to overcome their inherent black inadequacy......trust me....... bs


Kev, I read you posts on JBHE and I find it very informing. But they do have a leftist slant. But there's also some good information and statistics conatined within that I would not be able to refute.

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
MOM (Independent Man), i'm glad you are back in action......but in light of the raised unemployment level of blacks and YOUR president filing a brief for a policy that i can clearly demonstrate as limiting black educational opportunity...and a war that was unjust and uncalled for and a country that is in a state of shambles.....do you still sing the praise of old white conservative racists that successfully limited the lives of your parents and mine via jim crow? Can you actually finally explain how conservatism is good for black folks?........I hope so for your sake bro..................


Thanks Kev!! First of all, like I have said many times, I am not a Bush supporter, not now, not yesterday, not tomorrow. So I don't know where you keep getting this from. I oppossed the war with Iraq, and I think we should get the hell out of there ASAP!!!
Yes I will explain how conservatism is good, not only for blacks, but everyone!!! I will keep it short.
-- personal responsibility. A person makes choices and what happens for the most part is based on the coices a person makes.

-- Moral responsiblity which includes a strong family. The decline of the black family has been more so since the advent of liberal social programs in the late '60s. This is a fact.

Liberalism says that people are not responsible for their actions. Liberalism says it's immoral to be moral. There's no such thing as a right and wrong. Liberalism is destruction. I don't have time to go into exquisite detail.

No Kev, most of those white conservatives you keep trying to link me with are dead. Many of them were Democrats. This is one reason why it took the GOP to pass the Civil Rights Act '64, more Republicans voted for it than did Democrats. This is a FACT.

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
*** Yeah...remember where you wanted to find out what college I worked at and wanted to forward my posts like a biitch...and when me and another brother told you guys end up missing for that kinda schit, you then went into the victim mode and eluded to calling the police? Wow....all that for a post in a forum....what a brave man.... bs bs bs

rotflmao
Well Kev I repeatedly told you that it would not be my style to turn you in. But obviously, you have something to hide because if you didn't, you wouldn't have responded in the way you did. As much as I disagree with ricardomath, I have respect for him. He posted his name, address, phone number and his university some time ago (I haven't posted much, but I still read). He has nothing to hide. I am not requesting you do the same.
Well Kev, I don't take threats against me lightly. Try making a threat like you did at an airport, even before 9/11, and see what happens. Anyway, it was rather comical to see you punk out and backtrack!! I wish I had that link!!!!

from another topic.....
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
and as so far as that jj johanson fool.....who gives a f-k if he doesn't want to be black....he's just baggage to the race....because he espouses that house negro shit and gets rubbed on the head.....and creates problems for other blacks who would break your f-king hand when one tries to rub them on the head.......hell, when a black person works on an organization with skinnin grinnin buck-dancing negroes, it becomes a problem when HE is not like them.......whites want to label you as having a bad attitude or being a bad employee....even though you are more qualified than them and the skinnin grinnin negroes......blacks like jj are lazy negroes who do not want to benefit from hard work...so they compromise their dignity and place themselves under whites like small puppies and get morsel hand-outs as their rewards.........I don't see how you pro-white types look at yourselves in the mirror without hating what you see.....well, you do.......
rotflmao
Nope, you may disagree with JJ Johnson, but he's not lazy. He's actually the CEO of the Sierra Times.
I got a laugh out of the skinn grinn buck-dancing negroes....That was funny!!!! But I sense this was laden with personal experience. So I see YOU were labeled with having a bad attitude...somehow I'm not surprised!!!! If you are in life the way you are on this forum, then you would be seen as a difficult person who is hard to get along with. But of course that's not your problem, it's always someone elses problem. Perhaps those people were as you stated. I don't know. I would gather to say that they were merely trying to get along. And since in life you are known by the company you keep, they most likely didn't want to associate with you. It doesn't matter how smart one is, if they cannot get along with people and have a negative, bad attitude, then it's counter-productive to keep them in the organization.

@ Vox
Hey man, thanks!!! (from another topic). Congrats on your Juris Doctor!!!!
But.....
The reason why I brought up Metzger, etc was because of the kinds of comments that Kev made....
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
White racists can always turn things around and get dumb apologist negroes to think in a way that makes them more controllable......no where is it mentioned what the remedy for observing and measuring things that occur by race. So despite all of that bullshiit rhetotic by the racist inbreds, how do you measure the effectiveness of outreach programs, targeted medical care for illnesses that disproportionately affect certain ethinicities and the level of inclusion or exclusion to a particular social entity based on race?

So it wasn't that I was trying to prove that opposition to Prop54 was bad because they supported it, I was trying to show that white racists did in fact oppose it as well.

Also on the Confederacy....I can't recall defending the Confederacy, I'm not saying I didn't, but what I did say was that I was not going to let that flag bother me. Most of the reason why neo-confederates want to fly the flag because they know it will piss blacks off. If you show them thay you're not affected by the flag, you have basically won the battle, and after a while it will not be an issue. This is where I think I was coming from.

I know we don't agree on some things, but also agree on some things, I have much respect for you.

thumbsup

[This message was edited by IndependentMan on October 14, 2003 at 10:04 AM.]
MOM posted,

Well Kev, I don't take threats against me lightly. Try making a threat like you did at an airport, even before 9/11, and see what happens. Anyway, it was rather comical to see you punk out and backtrack!! I wish I had that link!!!!


***Listen ....quit lying so gotdamn much....nobody threatened you.....me and this other brother said that people like you usually end up missing or found in a dumpster for atttempting to ruin the lives of others.....and no one backtracked on schit.....that statement STILL stands....they do still find that type in dumpsters or they end up missing....nothing has changed......so why in the f-k are you trying to present me as doing something as dumb as making a threat....give me some credit...if that were the case, who would announce it and give the person a chance to circumvent it? Now THAT is not common sense......


As so far as Prop54, I think in terms of what BLACK people desire.....I do not care what white people think and they have no bearing on my decisions..i make my own decisions plain and simple. Why is it the majority of blacks opposed it for the racial assessment reasons? Are they dumb? Please explain....It seems as if you black conservatives run counter to the majority of blacks on every issue...why is that?



And as so far as in life, I deal with people in a likewise manner....go figure.....I give people what they give me, just more of it....good or bad...


And as so far as thinking you are qualified to paint some psychological profile....save that schit....it is a waste of your time...and as so far as that common sense thing....well it is too bad that there are sooo many poor people with common sense only (whatever in the hell that is) and many many people living and doing much better with their book sense.......like I said, people who make that statement usually not packing much book sense so they try to mask the fact under some nebulous auspice called "common sense".....to each his own......but common sense doesn't seem to lift people from poverty.....because there is not such a thing....sense is sense.....because even the things we deal with informally had to be taught...and even if informally, there was still a book around to explain it....


Read the post about liberalism and inclusive policies.....I'm not giving a f-k about the morals of others.....I have them and was raised with them....people's value systems are a matter of personal choice....so I do not emulate the white man's self-righteous GOD complex and try to dictate to others what they should do or think.....I can just explain my justification for my own actions.


Once again, the conversation has gotten off of the policy issues...like Prop 54, there was never an explanation of the benefits of supporting it......just some personal take that dismisses the things that I listed such as measurement and awareness of distinct forms of racism practiced and proven to exist.....but I never expect an answer....just a diversion. You people are great at skirting direct questions



You really twisted that GOP and CRA of 64 thing around.....so why did black people become Dems widespread if the GOP passed it? That is a direct question because you are making it sound like blacks are illogical. please explain......directly..like I asked you to do with Prop 54.

You explained conservatism as good for blacks under the same premise that the pro-black nationalists do......try describing it from an operational standpoint. TRY to make a legislative comparison where beneficial things were passed on behalf of blacks by other blacks or sponsored by a conservative black...it has never happened and never will. Plus another direct question : Why is it the majority of black people do not embrace that racist nonsense at all? Is the race that dumb as a majority not to know what is in its best interest? Why is it when there are measurable adverse outcomes for blacks you conservs still support it? Please explain because i'm trying to figure out the Uncle Thom-as(es) and the Connerlys.......
Ah Kev, if TBWT was up, I could prove that you are in fact a documented LIAR, but it's not, so onto other things.

Also Kev, when someone says some of the things that you have such as "people end up missing for...", that is a threat, perhaps not in your mind, but legally it can be construed as a threat. Oh yes, you punked out like a bitch!!! It was HILARIOUS!!! "I got waaay to much goin for me than to...., I wouldn't really do anything like that...etc" You were all BIG and BAD prior!!!
rotflmao


It's old news about Civil Rights '64, I have not twisted anything. I think it's your convoluted mind that's twisted!!! LOL!
quote:
Orginally posted by Kevin41:
You really twisted that GOP and CRA of 64 thing around.....so why did black people become Dems widespread if the GOP passed it? That is a direct question because you are making it sound like blacks are illogical. please explain......directly..like I asked you to do with Prop 54.



Here are the FACTS you asked for, Kev.

The civil-rights bill of 1964 was enacted with strong bipartisan and bi-ideological (conservative and liberal) support. But, the credit for the civil-rights victory has gone almost exclusively to liberals and Democrats, particularly to Senator Hubert Humphrey (D, Minn.) in Congress, and to Presidents Kennedy and Johnson. However, much of the hard work of advancing the legislation was done by congressional Republicans "” conservative stalwarts including Everett McKinley Dirksen of Illinois, Charles Halleck of Indiana, William McCulloch of Ohio, Robert Griffin of Michigan, Robert Taft Jr. of Ohio, Clarence Brown of Ohio, Roman Hruska of Nebraska, and moderates such as Thomas Kuchel of California, Kenneth Keating of New York, and Clark MacGregor of Minnesota. All of these Republicans served as major leaders of the pro-civil-rights coalition either as floor managers or captains for different sections of the bill.

Although the Democrats controlled both houses of the Congress at the time, a much-higher percentage of Republicans than Democrats supported the civil-rights bill. For example, in the House, Republicans voted for civil rights by a margin of 79 percent to 21 percent, 136-35. The Democrats' margin was 153-91 or 63 percent to 37 percent.

However, the single-most-important vote for the legislation was the attempt to cut off the anti-civil-rights filibuster in the Senate. In order for the bill to pass, civil-rights supporters needed two thirds of the Senate to break a filibuster by the opposition. Republicans voted overwhelmingly to break the filibuster by 81.8 percent (27-6), but only 65.7 percent of the Democrats voted to end the filibuster (44-23). Thus, if only Republicans in the Congress had voted, any potential filibuster would easily have been overridden. But, if only Democrats had voted, the pro-civil-rights forces would not have been able to obtain the necessary two/thirds vote to break the filibuster and the civil-rights bill would have died. No Republicans in Congress, no civil-rights bill "” it is as simple as that.

Only a handful of Republicans opposed the civil-rights bill. The most prominent among them was Senator Barry Goldwater of Arizona, who became the party's presidential candidate in 1964. Interestingly, Goldwater had always been a strong supporter of racial equality and supported the Eisenhower civil-rights bills of 1957 and 1960 that strengthened voting rights for African Americans. As Lee Edwards noted in The Conservative Revolution: "As chief of staff of the Arizona National Guard he [Goldwater] had pushed for desegregation of the guard two years before President Truman desegregated the U.S. armed forces." Goldwater stated that workforce discrimination was "morally wrong," but worried that in the future the federal government might "require people to discriminate on the basis of color or race or religion" and, thus, in the end, opposed the bill.


As far as blacks and Democrats, that started in the '30s with the New Deal. But it was the Presidencies of JFK and LBJ that solidified Democratic support, particularly with LBJs signings of Civil Rights '64 and Voting Rights '65. But without getting thru both Houses of Congress, the bill never would've arrived on his desk to be signed.

There Kev, I always seem to answer you questions and without the personal speculations that you always respond with.

quote:
Orginally posted by Kevin41:
As so far as Prop54, I think in terms of what BLACK people desire.....I do not care what white people think and they have no bearing on my decisions..i make my own decisions plain and simple. Why is it the majority of blacks opposed it for the racial assessment reasons? Are they dumb? Please explain....It seems as if you black conservatives run counter to the majority of blacks on every issue...why is that?

You just contradcited yourself here...AGAIN. In one breath you say that you think in terms of what black people desire (Stalinist group think), then go onto say that you make your own decisions. So which is it?? Either you make your own decisions, or you base them on what the group thinks as a whole. They are mutually exclusive.
No they are not dumb, just mis-informed because of the manipulation of the left, the media, and black "leaders".

Since you are soo ignorant on Prop54, let's step through it and see what in it that you object too.

CLASSIFICATION BY RACE, ETHNICITY, COLOR, OR NATIONAL ORIGIN. INITIATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT.
Effective January 1, 2005, prohibits state, local governments from using race, ethnicity, color or national origin to classify current or prospective students, contractors, or employees in public education, contracting or employment operations. Does not prohibit classification by sex. Prohibition also covers persons subject to other operations of government unless Legislature finds compelling state interest, authorizes by two-thirds of each house, and Governor approves. "Classifying" defined as separating, sorting, or organizing persons or personal data. Exemptions include: law enforcement descriptions; prisoner and undercover assignments; action taken to maintain federal funding. Summary of estimate by Legislative Analyst and Director of Finance of fiscal impact on state and local governments: This measure would have a major fiscal impact of annual state savings potentially ranging from several million dollars in excess of $10 million beginning in 2015. Prohibition Against Classifying by Race by State and Other Public Entities
Section 32 is added to Article I of the California Constitution as follows:

Sec. 32. (a) The state shall not classify any individual by race, ethnicity, color or national origin in the operation of public education, public contracting or public employment.

(b) The state shall not classify any individual by race, ethnicity, color or national origin in the operation of any other state operations, unless the legislature specifically determines that said classification serves a compelling state interest and approves said classification by a 2/3 majority in both houses of the legislature, and said classification is subsequently approved by the governor.

(c) For purposes of this section, "classifying" by race, ethnicity, color or national origin shall be defined as the act of separating, sorting or organizing by race, ethnicity, color or national origin including, but not limited to, inquiring, profiling, or collecting such data on government forms.

(d) For purposes of subsection (a), "individual" refers to current or prospective students, contractors or employees. For purposes of subsection (b), "individual" refers to persons subject to the state operations referred to in subsection (b).

(e) The Department of Fair Employment and Housing (DFEH) shall be exempt from this section with respect to DFEH-conducted classifications in place as of March 5, 2002.
(1) Unless specifically extended by the legislature, this exemption shall expire ten years after the effective date of this measure.
(2) Notwithstanding DFEH's exemption from this section, DFEH shall not impute a race, color, ethnicity or national origin to any individual.


(f) Otherwise lawful classification of medical research subjects and patients shall be exempt from this section.

(g) Nothing in this section shall prevent law enforcement officers, while carrying out their law enforcement duties, from describing particular persons in otherwise lawful ways. Neither the governor, the legislature nor any statewide agency shall require law enforcement officers to maintain records that track individuals on the basis of said classifications, nor shall the governor, the legislature or any statewide agency withhold funding to law enforcement agencies on the basis of the failure to maintain such records.

(h) Otherwise lawful assignment of prisoners and undercover law enforcement officers shall be exempt from this section.

(i) Nothing in this section shall be interpreted as prohibiting action which must be taken to comply with federal law, or establish or maintain eligibility for any federal program, where ineligibility would result in a loss of federal funds to the state.

(j) Nothing in this section shall be interpreted as invalidating any valid consent decree or court order which is in force as of the effective date of this section.

(k) For the purposes of this section, "state" shall include, but not necessarily be limited to, the state itself, any city, county, city and county, public university system, including the University of California, California State University, community college district, school district, special district, or any other political subdivision or governmental instrumentality of or within the state.

(l) This section shall become effective January 1, 2005.

(m) This section shall be self-executing. If any part or parts of this section are found to be in conflict with federal law or the United States Constitution, the section shall be implemented to the maximum extent that federal law and the United States Constitution permit. Any provision held invalid shall be severable from the remaining portions of this section.
---------------------------------------------
In accordance to debating, line item and explain your objections.

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
You explained conservatism as good for blacks under the same premise that the pro-black nationalists do......try describing it from an operational standpoint. TRY to make a legislative comparison where beneficial things were passed on behalf of blacks by other blacks or sponsored by a conservative black...it has never happened and never will. Plus another direct question : Why is it the majority of black people do not embrace that racist nonsense at all? Is the race that dumb as a majority not to know what is in its best interest? Why is it when there are measurable adverse outcomes for blacks you conservs still support it? Please explain because i'm trying to figure out the Uncle Thom-as(es) and the Connerlys.......

Not everything can and will come from the government!!! I know you don't understand this. Part of what is being a conservative is less dependency from the government and more reliance on ones self. This is where it has to start, NOT FROM THE GOVERNMENT!!! Your leftist mindset is that everything is legislated from the government, this is why taxes do not bother most on this board. State ways don't change folk ways. Get it?? Probably not.

What racist nonsense are you refering to, Kev?? Prop 54?? I just posted the principles of Prop 54, please state the racist points in it and back it up with substantiation, not your personal rhetoric.

One more thing, Kev, no you did NOT prove Connerly benefitted from AA. What you did was post articles from the New York Times and San Francisco Chronicle, hardly objective news sources, and even in those articles their information was circumstantial. Not unless you can produce the actual document from whatever agency that handles those things, your information is circumstantial.

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
And as so far as thinking you are qualified to paint some psychological profile....save that schit....it is a waste of your time...and as so far as that common sense thing....well it is too bad that there are sooo many poor people with common sense only (whatever in the hell that is) and many many people living and doing much better with their book sense.......like I said, people who make that statement usually not packing much book sense so they try to mask the fact under some nebulous auspice called "common sense".....to each his own......but common sense doesn't seem to lift people from poverty.....because there is not such a thing....sense is sense.....because even the things we deal with informally had to be taught...and even if informally, there was still a book around to explain it....

So you're qualified to paint psychological profiles on others??? "self hatred, metally affilcated, etc" Just because you have a Ph.D??? Nigga Puleeze!!! Oh yeah this is from a person who told me that I shouldn't criticize anyones abilities unles I was at the post doctorate level of my research endeavors. How pompous!!!
It doesn't surprise me that you don't know what the hell common sense is!!! LOL!! Because you have none!!!!
rotflmao

Well I think I have posted my quota for the next couple of months or so!!!

Sergeant, keep hammerin' buddy!!! I enjoy your posts!!!!!!!

thumbsup
Name a Republican/conservative that died or even went to jail in the protest marches of the CRA?

Matter of fact just name one that marched?

You guys need to disconnect your brain from your butts. What about their voting records since?

I don't give a damn about either but tell the whole story.
IndependentMan,

Go and read what consitutes a threat......it is a direct statement to someone telling them what you are going to do to them....I said what happened to people who do things like you did....I never once said I would do it myself...I said what generally happens.....and as so far as a bitch is concerned, whose idea was it to go tell like a little punk bitch ass fag in the first place?.....if someone came at me anyway wrong....i'm not going to go tell anything like a punk...i'll handle it my dammy......so dogg...you are the one who was a little bitch needing adult assistance....not me.


As so far as Connerly...everyone knows he signed the contracts as a minority business....yes he made millions of of AA because before his time black men were not given gov't contracts period....do some reading. Why didn't he sue if they lied on him? Because the sorry azz confused negro benefitted and then like all of you....turn your back on the race. you are a shame to your parents and anyone else who endured jim crow. Where were you negro conservatives when King and Jesse and the rest were marching in the south?.....sitting on your punk coward wanna-be-white azzes waiting to benefit so you could philosophically disconnect when the movement was done......now that is bitch-like for a man for real........


As so far as Prop54, since you really seem to be acting like a dumb ass, i'll try again. How are people supposed to measure and monitor the effectiveness of outreach efforts? How are people supposed to measure the extent of racism and discrimination that exists? What is your alternative to analyzing racial data?


Since you say it is a dependency on gov't....when others receive subsidies, veterans receive preferances and the whole nine.....and Bush gives billion dollar contracts (your tax dollars)without bids to his cronies while national unemployment goes up and jobs disappear and schools are dilapidated without books, let me ask you..to what extent is the gov't supposed to work to fight racism and discrimination? You understand how they regulate pollution, food and drugs and other things that are harmful....what is their responsibility to check racism within the confines of its own nation? Do you think gov't has any responsibility or black people are just supposed to deal with it? Tell me please......

And yes I think in terms what the majority of the race thinks...because the race made efforts on my behalf where I was able to accomplish things that were not available to blacks WHOLESALE in the generation before me. That is much better than denying my race as a half-breed and then trying to adopt a white mindset so I can hopefully get liked by them "gud white folk" because I demonstrated to them that i don't think like those darkies.........Why would I turn my back on the things that got me down the road and can get others behind me the same results? So explain to me why 8% of negras with pro-white views even at the expense of their race are the smart ones? what makes them progressive and not just some bowed-head foot-shufflinf toms?
**This cat is a fool...he says get rid of the laws that provide opportunity for all....and HOPE and PRAY that diversity is acheived....what a moron.....

Ward Connerly's Crusade:
Should America Erase Race?


Ward Connerly wants to erase the notion of race from America's collective conscious. To do so, he's embarked on a state-by-state legislative crusade.

His experience has prepared him for the challenge. Connerly spearheaded California's Proposition 209, which banned race preferences in public employment, education and contracting. He was also instrumental in 1995 in getting a majority of board members at the University of California -- where he is a regent -- to ban the use of race in the school's admissions policy.

Connerly currently is focusing on eliminating affirmative action from the state of Michigan through a ballot initiative.

He is also leading the charge to enact California's Proposition 54, or Racial Privacy Initiative (RPI), which is scheduled to come before the state's voters October 7, 2003. The initiative will make it illegal to ask for race identification and is touted by RPI supporters as being able to "save our state budget over $10 million, end government's preferential treatment based on race and junk a 17th-century racial classification system that has no place in 21st-century America. RPI's passage will signal America's first step towards a color-blind society," according to RPI's Web site.

"I think the [Supreme Court's] affirmative action decision was a terrible decision," said Connerly from the Sacramento, Calif. office of his American Civil Rights Institute. "There are 23 initiative states and Michigan is one of those 23. If one is going to challenge a bad court decision, it seems to me you have to go to the place where the court decision took place. The beast really is Michigan."

The Supreme Court in a 5-4 decision supported the University of Michigan's use of race as one of several factors that can be considered in the admissions process, concluding that "diversity" is a compelling state interest. Connerly has said that he is an integrationist, supports gay rights and values diversity. Nonetheless, he believes that the government's support for affirmative action has a negative impact no matter what the reasons happen to be.

"The desirable path for achieving quote un-quote diversity is to make sure people have legal equal rights to compete, and then on the strength of that competition hope and pray that it ends up reflecting the multiplicity of this nation," said Connerly. "The whole concept of diversity is not well served by thinking that equates it with race preferences. Getting rid of preferences helps to get rid of the stigma that 'black' equals inferior, unqualified, disadvantaged."

An anti-affirmative-action Michigan ballot initiative was explored four years ago. Supporters, however, expected the Supreme Court to rule against the University of Michigan's affirmative action programs. But the justices only ruled unconstitutional the university's undergraduate system, which awarded points for an applicant's race.

Connerly launched his anti-affirmative-action initiative in Michigan on July 8. For an initiative to be placed on a Michigan ballot that will create or amend legislation, he must collect 254,206 signatures, which equals 8 percent of the votes cast for governor in the last gubernatorial election. To create a state constitutional amendment, he must gather 317,757 signatures. The signatures have to be gathered in a 180-day time frame, according to Michigan's bureau of elections.

Only Michigan's weather could stop his progress, Connerly said.

"It's pretty brutal in Michigan from November through March," Connerly said. "Beyond that I don't feel any discomfort."

Opponents of RPI and Connerly's stance on affirmative action say racial and ethnic data are essential to health care, law enforcement and criminal justice policy. The measure could strike the "race box" from many government forms by forbidding state and local governments from classifying students, contractors or employees by race, ethnicity, color or national origin. The measure exempts some data collected for medical research, descriptions of prisoners or criminal suspects, and cases where the federal government requires that agencies report racial data. They say studies on disparate medical treatment, incarceration rates and loan approvals for African Americans and whites would be threatened if voters approve RPI.


The crux of the issue is the definition of diversity and the proper way to value difference. Connerly argues that defining people by race or sexual orientation serves to segregate rather than create value for such uniqueness.

Hilary Shelton, Washington, D.C., bureau chief for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) said RPI simply provides a means to cover up the disparate ills suffered by communities of color.

"When you say we'll include everyone in the statistical data [without race] then you don't notice that unemployment in the African-American community is higher than it is in the white community," said Shelton. "You won't notice that colon cancer happens more often to black Americans than white Americans. If you don't notice those things then you have no responsibility to address them, so Ward Connerly is offering a cop out to not address those issues in our society."

Connerly counters by telling a story: He was sitting in a restaurant bar eating a hamburger and watching news anchor Soledad O'Brien on television when another customer, who recognized him, asked Connerly if O'Brien was African American. Co-host of CNN's "American Morning," O'Brien has a mixed background of Latino, Irish and African American. Connerly said he asked the man what particular characteristic he saw in her that caused him to question whether O'Brien was African American.

"He couldn't answer that question and I couldn't answer that question," said Connerly. "What is a black person? Is it skin color? We know it's not that because there are so many people who don't fit the bill. This whole debate about racial categories forces us to stop for a moment and ask about the legitimacy of categories. Are we defending the 'one drop' rule -- so that if there's any one feature that looks like 'black' then by golly you're a black person?"

Connerly, who said he himself is Irish, Native American and African American, contends that most African Americans come from mixed heritage yet are forced to identify as African American and live life like an African American instead of being "free" to realize their entire worth.

"We gain freedom by getting rid of all racial classifications in the public sphere," said Connerly. "If we get rid of racial classifications the labeling of inferiority would dissipate."

RPI opponents interviewed said they would herald the day race does not matter, but the present reality is that it does. Talking about making solutions colorblind when the problem is not colorblind is useless.

They also point to Connerly's supporters as proof that the real effort is to disregard the need communities of color face.

According to "Assault on Diversity: An Organized Challenge to Racial and Gender Diversity," a book written by Lee Cokorinos, Connerly's American Civil Rights Institute (ACRI) is heavily funded by conservative foundations:

The John M. Olin Foundation -- which funds conservative think tanks such as The American Enterprise Institute; The Heritage Foundation; The Manhattan Institute for Public Policy Research; and the Hoover Institute of War, Revolution and Peace -- gave ACRI $150,000 in 2000, $125,000 in 1999 and $225,000 in 1998.
The Sarah Scaife Foundation -- which The Washington Post reported in 1999 that along with other Scaife family foundations gave at least $340 million to conservative causes and institutions -- gave Connerly $75,000 in 2000, $175,000 in 1999 and $275,000 in 1998.
The Donner Foundation gave ACRI $110,000 in 1998.
The Bradley Foundation gave ACRI $150,000 in 2000 and $475,000 in 1998.
"[Connerly] is loaded," said Earl Ofari Hutchinson, syndicated columnist and president of the Inglewood, Calif.-based National Alliance for Positive Action, a racial and social-justice public-advocacy group and an RPI opponent. "He has more money than you can shake a fist at and he's been a pretty darn good salesman."
Cokorinos also chronicles Connerly's connection to California's conservative Republican Gov. Pete Wilson, writing that the two met when Connerly was working at the California Department of Housing and Community Development in 1968. Wilson, then a state assemblyman, hired Connerly in 1969. The two worked together off and on until 1991 when Wilson became mayor of San Diego, a U.S. senator and then governor in 1991.


Wilson eventually appointed Connerly to his regent post at the University of California.

"In 1993, immediately following the controversial appointment of one of his closest friends and biggest campaign financiers, Wilson made Ward Connerly -– a businessman with no experience in educational administration -– a regent, the board's only black member. Together, they pushed a resolution through the board that ended affirmative action in university admissions, employment practices and contracts. From the regents, Connerly went on in December 1995 to lead the campaign to qualify Proposition 209 for the [California] ballot," wrote Cokorinos.

Meanwhile Connerly, "apparently not eschewing so-called preferences entirely ... founded his own housing management consulting firm in Sacramento and listed it as 'minority owned.' " Cokorinos wrote.

Hutchinson contends that Connerly's RPI would be disastrous because "institutional discrimination works in defiance of the laws on the books, so as long as you have a society that is layered by race and textured with race that excludes everything."

Racial data works to ensure that people of color are included in the educational institutions and corporate institutions of the nation and without such data communities of color would lose services, Hutchinson said.

"You have to have some measure to quantify who is in the work force, who is getting stopped by police, documenting practices of employment discrimination -– if you don't have numbers, it's your word against theirs and your word does not hold as much weight as theirs," said Hutchinson.

Connerly contends RPI is the movement of the future and will become more popular as an increasing number of mixed-race people decline to choose one race over the other when they check the "race box."

"[The diversity movement should] get on the cutting edge of the phenomenon of people who are multicultural," said Connerly. "There is a growing population of people who are just now becoming aware of the fullness of their background and are choosing to defy racial categories."
Hello the Watcher,

"Are we talking about Ghettopoly anymore?" by The Watcher

Indeed. Much has been said that has absolutely nothing to do with the original topic. Out of all due respect, to the author, it would be best that every poster stick to the original topic!

I'm as much at fault as anyone else, as it relates to changing the subject matter.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 14, 2003 at 08:02 PM.]
Well Nmaginate,

Ghettopoly covers a lot of territory, meaning it is a game based on life in the Ghetto! Maybe this is the problem, meaning the so-called Black middle class are ashamed of where they came from, so much so that they refuse to invest in improving the quality of life in the "Hood".

Heck, if the Irish, the Jews, the Hispanics, etc., can turn a Ghetto into an affluent community, Black people can too. Heck, East Los Angeles used to be that barrio through, and through. In restrospect looking at East Los Angeles now, any visitor would be highly impressed, to see the many flourishing business enterprises run by Hispanic merchants, to move East Los Angeles several noches up from being the Barrio of extreme poverty, of a few years ago.

Black people, including the Black middle class, just choose to trash their own community. With this mindset, slim chance exists that Black people will ever move forward as opposed to taking huge steps backwards.

Even at the point of starvation there is absolutely nothing that any social welfare program can do for me, accept make a bad situation worse! Heck, to qualify an individual, a family, etc., must sell his, her, and/or their souls for funds that won't make ends meet.

A married woman can have any other male, but she must get rid of her husband to quality for welfare benefits. This reality most surely proves that Welfare is indeed a part of Ghettopoly.


"LOFTON is GHETTO!! LOFTON IS GHETTO!!" by Nmaginate

You bet I'm from the Ghetto, but at the same time, I'm proud of where I came from. Poverty, ignorance, being Ghetto, is the state of an individual's thoughts and/or actions. More so than me, you truly act Ghetto, in that although you may not live in the Ghetto, your actions are Ghetto!

Blaming everything on Caucasians has yet to put a dime in my pocket. Playing the dozens has yet to move me up from poverty. Yep, I'm from the Ghetto, and proud of where I came from. In spite of the very negative environment around me, I've managed to be successful, law abiding, respectful, honorable, etc.

This being said, any Black man or woman who makes something of his or herself, after being subjected to the very deadly environment of living in the Hood, deserves honorable mention, a "purple heart", a "bronze star", a long list of "atta boys or girls". More times than not, the Black male is doomed for failure, because his own Black community many times is against him.

___________________________________

It is well known that Nate Holden is a misfit, but yet the unintelligent voting Black middle class prove themselves to be just as ignorant! It is one thing to be from the Ghetto. It is another thing to be from Ghetto, and bend over backwards to support misfits, supporting the worst in Black people!

...But the so-called Black middle class will not hesitate to Give Praise to That Misfit in A no good disgraceful former Los Angeles City Councilman Nate Holden. If Nate Holden, the Baffoon, is voted into political office by Black folks one more time, Black folks should lose their right to vote!

"Holden to Seek State Office

Former councilman plans to run for Assembly seat being vacated by Herb Wesson because of term limits.

By Patrick McGreevy, Times Staff Writer

October 14, 2003

Months after being forced from office by term limits, former Los Angeles City Councilman Nate Holden announced Monday that he will run for a state Assembly seat in the March election.

Holden, 74, of Baldwin Hills, is seeking a return trip to Sacramento. He served four years in the state Senate before his 16-year stint on the City Council.

"I will bring to Sacramento some knowledge about how to get the job done and how to protect the interests of the people," said Holden, a Democrat.

Holden will run in the 47th Assembly District, which is represented by Speaker Herb Wesson (D-Culver City), who cannot run again because of term limits.

The district includes Baldwin Hills, the Crenshaw district, Culver City, Century City and Westwood.

Holden said experience is especially critical in Sacramento with the arrival of Gov.-elect Arnold Schwarzenegger, a newcomer to state government, and the departure of veteran legislators forced out by term limits.The former councilman said he has raised $70,000 for his candidacy.

Other candidates who have filed statements of intention to run in the Democratic primary for the 47th District include Canard E. Barnes, Karen Bass, Richard P. Groper, Rickey Ivie and Anthony Willoughby. No candidates have filed statements yet to run in the primary for any other party in the district."

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 14, 2003 at 09:56 PM.]
yeah Lofton,

Save the academic insults bro......
I teach at the bachelors, masters and doctoral level.....now I teach mainly online because I am tired of the classroom committment after a full day in my primary career.......go figure......so your canine could probably do better in one of my classes than you could....which still is not saying much. By the way, i'm contemplating applying for a Rhodes Scholarship in a year or two....my doctoral GPA was 3.9.....books have never been my problem....just self-loathing negras who make it harder on their own......so save your insults you f-king burnt-out, self-hating, apologist house negro wire-puller........


I am through trying to convince you self-hating negroes of anything.....you are a part of the "lost tribe"......

Instead, I will challenge you all to justify your stance on policy issues and fade the little tit-for-tat games that little b-tches play. I will be able to clearly demonstrate your white-oriented afflictions without ever saying one thing about you.....I mean look at your boy IndependentMan....he has still yet to ever tell me what is an alternative for affirmative action as a way to force inclusiveness in a racist society....or how does he plan to monitor racism, discrimination and outreach efforts had Prop 54 passed. to hell with me....i'm a non-issue....so we can quit the conversations about me....and see what makes YOU fellas so damn smart that you can attempt to tell me i'm dumb. As they say, "lets take it to the chalkboard"......but if you want to trade insults....my skin is thicker than leather....a word never made anyone bleed so they mean nothing......so set the tone bro...we can discuss issues or we can talk schit......i do not have a problem with either....and remember...profanity is only bad if it is indicative of the limits of one's vocabulary........
Well Kevin41,

"***So Lofton, the poverty stricken and welfare recipients are lumped in as a undesirable sector of society huh? They have a stigma based on their unfortunate situations according to you...man what the f-k is your problem?....hell someone in your family may have needed aid before or was poverty stricken....you really sound like a punk azz white racist fool at this point......" by Kevin41

...Ya right, as if to say, you don't throw your own garbage my direction, and/or others direction, you being the first to initiate an insult. One insult deserves another. From here on out though, I'm not going to stoop to your level. Your status is only worth something to those who are impressed.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

P.S.

"Are we talking about Ghettopoly anymore?" by The Watcher

Excuse My French, but indeed it is time that we drop our differences and get back to the topic at hand!

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 14, 2003 at 08:22 PM.]
Watcher, Mr. Lofton, I agree with you both!! I am as much at fault as well!!!

This one last refute on the self stroking professor.....


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
yeah Lofton,

Save the academic insults bro......
I teach at the bachelors, masters and doctoral level.....now I teach mainly online because I am tired of the classroom committment after a full day in my primary career.......go figure......so your canine could probably do better in one of my classes than you could....which still is not saying much. By the way, i'm contemplating applying for a Rhodes Scholarship in a year or two....my doctoral GPA was 3.9.....books have never been my problem....just self-loathing negras who make it harder on their own......so save your insults you f-king burnt-out, self-hating, apologist house negro wire-puller........


rotflmao
Ah another tid bit of self masterbation from the "professor". Fells good, huh Kev??? Only people with self esteem problems always have to lay out their credentials all the time, while at the same time belittling someone else. Hey Kev, like on TBWT, with all your credentials, making you look like you don't know what you're talking about on these forums is like taking candy from a little kid!!! And you keep comin' back for more!!! Makes for some good entertainment!!! It's also easy to prove what a contradictory LIAR you are as evidenced below....

I like Mr. Loftons come back....

quote:
Originally posted by Lofton:
...Ya right, as if to say, you don't throw your own garbage my direction, and/or others direction, you being the first to initiate an insult. One insult deserves another. From here on out though, I'm not going to stoop to your level. Your status is only worth something to those who are impressed.



See Kev, with all your education, etc, I (and most likely many others) view you as much as a low life as your buddy Rodney King, who incidently was just busted again for beating a woman.

Now this is HILARIOUS!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
Instead, I will challenge you all to justify your stance on policy issues and fade the little tit-for-tat games that little b-tches play.

rotflmao

What??? Let's look at your contradictory comments just in this thread!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
but when you refute me, stick to the topic and use my exact words...not YOUR version of what I said...


mmm, that's what I've been doing, Kev.

Then I responded with:

quote:

People like myself have always done this with you. Remember on TBWT, I did this, ramses357 (remember him???) did this?? It pissed you off, I'm sure you don't remember. Put you said that the basic style of debating was a "biitch tactic". So "there you go again". Suggesting that someone go to a style of debating which you couldn't stand before. You simply amaze me!!!!


Then you came back with.....

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
***No I said men using sarcastic azz female language to avoid facts was bitch-like in nature...and it still is....


Which one is it Kev, where did I or anyone else use sarcastic azz female language to avoid facts?? Please show me....You can't because I do not do that!!!!! If anyone is guilty of that, it's you!!!! And ALWAYS has been!!!
rotflmao
I told you the debating style of showing your exact wording and responding to such pisses you off, because you get to see first hand, how idiotic you sound. So, Kev, what I'm doing is a tit for tat game that bitches play??? This is what debating is all about on an internet forum. Where did I use sarcastic azz female language, Kev?? I can point out numerous places where you did!!! So then, are you a bitch, Kev??

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
As so far as Prop54, since you really seem to be acting like a dumb ass, i'll try again. How are people supposed to measure and monitor the effectiveness of outreach efforts? How are people supposed to measure the extent of racism and discrimination that exists? What is your alternative to analyzing racial data?

Did you say, sarcastic azz bitch comments?? I didn't expect you to read through the proposition. You're too lazy. You would much rather just criticize it with your personal rhetoric. You said it was racist. I asked to line item the proposition and state what you thought was racist....you didn't.

As far as the Connerly issue, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, you still have not proved a thing, well you have proved that you can insult and put down!!!!!
rotflmao


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
I am through trying to convince you self-hating negroes of anything.....you are a part of the "lost tribe"......

Can you give us the skinny on what makes someone "self-hating"?? Who gives you the authority to make that assesment? You're trying to convince??!!?? Wow, now that's funny!!!
rotflmao

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
I mean look at your boy IndependentMan....he has still yet to ever tell me what is an alternative for affirmative action as a way to force inclusiveness in a racist society....or how does he plan to monitor racism, discrimination and outreach efforts had Prop 54 passed. to hell with me....i'm a non-issue....so we can quit the conversations about me....and see what makes YOU fellas so damn smart that you can attempt to tell me i'm dumb. As they say, "lets take it to the chalkboard"......but if you want to trade insults....my skin is thicker than leather....a word never made anyone bleed so they mean nothing......so set the tone bro...we can discuss issues or we can talk schit......i do not have a problem with either....and remember...profanity is only bad if it is indicative of the limits of one's vocabulary........

rotflmao

Playing victim once again, Kev. I have outlined countless times my views on AA, you just didn't read them or IMO comprehend them. That's too bad. No, Kev, I don't come here to trade insults, that's for people who are very insecure and immature I would rather talk about the issues. But somehow I get the impression that you think you do not start the insults with people. Just like on jobs where you've been labeled as having a bad attitude, it was the fault of the white racists and "buck grinin' dancin' negroes", I think that's funny!!! Never the onus is on you, always someone elses fault. You're just too good I guess. Anyway Kev, I really hope someday you will find happiness, 'cause your one miserable muthafucka.

Watcher, again I aplogize, I enjoy your posts!!!

I'm done with this thread. I'm done with this board for a while.

Good day!!!
thumbsup

[This message was edited by IndependentMan on October 15, 2003 at 07:16 AM.]
rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao I just wanted to see if you put these little suckas side-by-side would it create some kind of collision course or an explosion. Don't pay this any attention. rotflmao
Independent Man posted,

Watcher, Mr. Lofton, I agree with you both!! I am as much at fault as well!!!

This one last refute on the self stroking professor.....



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
yeah Lofton,

Save the academic insults bro......
I teach at the bachelors, masters and doctoral level.....now I teach mainly online because I am tired of the classroom committment after a full day in my primary career.......go figure......so your canine could probably do better in one of my classes than you could....which still is not saying much. By the way, i'm contemplating applying for a Rhodes Scholarship in a year or two....my doctoral GPA was 3.9.....books have never been my problem....just self-loathing negras who make it harder on their own......so save your insults you f-king burnt-out, self-hating, apologist house negro wire-puller........

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ah another tid bit of self masterbation from the "professor". Fells good, huh Kev??? Only people with self esteem problems always have to lay out their credentials all the time, while at the same time belittling someone else. Hey Kev, like on TBWT, with all your credentials, making you look like you don't know what you're talking about on these forums is like taking candy from a little kid!!! And you keep comin' back for more!!! Makes for some good entertainment!!! It's also easy to prove what a contradictory LIAR you are as evidenced below....

I like Mr. Loftons come back....

****Independent Man...it is not self-stoking at all.....just the facts man....it is like when Jordan says he's good at basketball.....the haters who cannot shoot as well call it arrogant....but when we are all alone....we understand he's just putting out facts. BUT HEY...I WORK HARD TO BE ABLE TO MAKE THOSE FACTS....SO F-K WHOVER IS NOT UP BURNING THE MIDNIGHT OIL WITH ME

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Lofton:
...Ya right, as if to say, you don't throw your own garbage my direction, and/or others direction, you being the first to initiate an insult. One insult deserves another. From here on out though, I'm not going to stoop to your level. Your status is only worth something to those who are impressed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



See Kev, with all your education, etc, I (and most likely many others) view you as much as a low life as your buddy Rodney King, who incidently was just busted again for beating a woman.

Now this is HILARIOUS!!!


****Yes Independent Man.....I knew you would....hell I do not have issues with what race I am....and the MAJORITY of black people embrace my views with open arms......plus my mom and dad were married for 56 years before passed....now what makes you compare me to a man who hits women? Thats funny....based on your lack of concrete racial identity and pro-white views....i'm sure you are closer to being confused like Rodney before I am......it is obvious....WHAT HAPPENED TO STICKING TO THE POLICY DISCUSSION? WHY DO YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO RIDE SOMEBODY'S D-IK WHEN THEY HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT ME....BE A MAN....DON'T PIGGY-BACK OFF OF THE EFFORTS OF OTHERS ....IT IS A BITCH TRAIT....IT IS [B]****INDY MAN.....WHY ARE SKIPPING MY QUESTION ON PROP 54...HOW DO YOU PLAN TO MONITOR OR MEASURE RACISM, DISCRIMINATION OR PROGRESS AGAINST IT?LIKE YOU CAN'T GO IT ALONE. BUT THE RODNEY KING STATEMENT IN ITSELF IS AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR B-TCH DEMEANOR. THE CONVERSATION WASN'T BETWEEN ME AND YOU...BUY YOU JUMP IN LIKE HIS B-TCH BECAUSE YOU KNOW HE'LL PROTECT YOU IF FIGHT BREAKS OUT argue[/B]


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
Instead, I will challenge you all to justify your stance on policy issues and fade the little tit-for-tat games that little b-tches play.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What??? Let's look at your contradictory comments just in this thread!!!!


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
but when you refute me, stick to the topic and use my exact words...not YOUR version of what I said...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



mmm, that's what I've been doing, Kev.

Then I responded with:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

People like myself have always done this with you. Remember on TBWT, I did this, ramses357 (remember him???) did this?? It pissed you off, I'm sure you don't remember. Put you said that the basic style of debating was a "biitch tactic". So "there you go again". Suggesting that someone go to a style of debating which you couldn't stand before. You simply amaze me!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Then you came back with.....


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
***No I said men using sarcastic azz female language to avoid facts was bitch-like in nature...and it still is....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Which one is it Kev, where did I or anyone else use sarcastic azz female language to avoid facts?? Please show me....You can't because I do not do that!!!!! If anyone is guilty of that, it's you!!!! And ALWAYS has been!!!



****INDY MAN.....WHY ARE SKIPPING MY QUESTION ON PROP 54...HOW DO YOU PLAN TO MONITOR OR MEASURE RACISM, DISCRIMINATION OR PROGRESS AGAINST IT? AS SO FAR AS BITCHY...WHAT THE HELL DOES RODNEY KING HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?



I told you the debating style of showing your exact wording and responding to such pisses you off, because you get to see first hand, how idiotic you sound. So, Kev, what I'm doing is a tit for tat game that bitches play??? This is what debating is all about on an internet forum. Where did I use sarcastic azz female language, Kev?? I can point out numerous places where you did!!! So then, are you a bitch, Kev??

NAW...BUT I BET YOU KNOW WHO THE REAL B-TCH IS....TAKE A GUESS......


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
As so far as Prop54, since you really seem to be acting like a dumb ass, i'll try again. How are people supposed to measure and monitor the effectiveness of outreach efforts? How are people supposed to measure the extent of racism and discrimination that exists? What is your alternative to analyzing racial data?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Did you say, sarcastic azz bitch comments?? I didn't expect you to read through the proposition. You're too lazy. You would much rather just criticize it with your personal rhetoric. You said it was racist. I asked to line item the proposition and state what you thought was racist....you didn't.


***** SEE THE QUESTION ABOVE ABOUT PROP 54 PLEASE!!!

As far as the Connerly issue, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, you still have not proved a thing, well you have proved that you can insult and put down!!!!!

****CONNERLY TOOK THE CONTRACTS AS A MINORITY OWNED BUSINESS...WHY DO YOU THINK HE MADE THE INDIRECT COMMENT THAT EVERONE BENEFITS FROM THE AURA OF INCLUSION THAT AA PROVIDES?

READ BELOW AND AGAIN ASK WHY WOULD MULTIPLE SOURCES HAVE TO GET TOGETHER AND LIE ON THIS GUY? PLEASE ANSWER THAT QUESTION SPECIFICALLY:
In addition, a Jet article cited a story in the San Francisco Chronicle which stated that he had accepted $140,000 over the years in affirmative action contracts from the government. Though roughly half of his business did indeed come from the government, Connerly disputed that it was affirmative action money, telling Donna St. George of the Knight-Ridder/Tribune News Service, "I don't think there's a minority around who hasn't benefited from the climate of inclusion that affirmative action has fostered. But I have never gone after the preference." He mentioned that he never listed himself on minority rosters, nor did he apply for minority "set-asides." However, Ayres in the New York Times reported that Connerly had indeed listed his firm as minority-owned in order to "keep all the benefits of a government contract."


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
I am through trying to convince you self-hating negroes of anything.....you are a part of the "lost tribe"......
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Can you give us the skinny on what makes someone "self-hating"?? Who gives you the authority to make that assesment? You're trying to convince??!!?? Wow, now that's funny!!!

**WHAT MAKES A PERSON SELF-HATING IS WHEN THEY WORK TO DENY THEIR IDENTITY AS A BLACK PERSON....AND THEN ADOPT VIEWS THAT ARE LEGISLATIVELY ADVERSE TO BLACK PEOPLE AS A WAY TO PHILOSOPHICALLY DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROM THE BLACK MAJORITY BECAUSE THEY ARE REALLY NOT ABLE TO PHYSICALLY DO SO.....UNDERSTAND?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
I mean look at your boy IndependentMan....he has still yet to ever tell me what is an alternative for affirmative action as a way to force inclusiveness in a racist society....or how does he plan to monitor racism, discrimination and outreach efforts had Prop 54 passed. to hell with me....i'm a non-issue....so we can quit the conversations about me....and see what makes YOU fellas so damn smart that you can attempt to tell me i'm dumb. As they say, "lets take it to the chalkboard"......but if you want to trade insults....my skin is thicker than leather....a word never made anyone bleed so they mean nothing......so set the tone bro...we can discuss issues or we can talk schit......i do not have a problem with either....and remember...profanity is only bad if it is indicative of the limits of one's vocabulary........
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Playing victim once again, Kev. I have outlined countless times my views on AA, you just didn't read them or IMO comprehend them. That's too bad. No, Kev, I don't come here to trade insults, that's for people who are very insecure and immature I would rather talk about the issues. But somehow I get the impression that you think you do not start the insults with people. Just like on jobs where you've been labeled as having a bad attitude, it was the fault of the white racists and "buck grinin' dancin' negroes", I think that's funny!!! Never the onus is on you, always someone elses fault. You're just too good I guess. Anyway Kev, I really hope someday you will find happiness, 'cause your one miserable muthafucka.


***** YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION FROM A LEGISLATIVE OUTCOME PERSPECTIVE...PLEASE DO NOT SKIRT THE ANSWER...AND SINCE I'M SO DUMB, MAYBE YOU NEED TO LEARN TO EXPRESS YOURSELF CLEARER...AS THE SMARTER ONE HERE..IT IS YOUR DUTY TO REACH ALL OF THE STUDENTS, EVEN THE SLOW ONES LIKE ME....SO PLEASE EXPLAIN FROM A LEGISLATIVE OUTCOME PERSPECTIVE, ONCE AGAIN AND AS SO FAR AS A VICTIM....I'M SURE LABELING YOU AS BLACK VICTIMIZES YOU DAILY Big Grin

Watcher, again I aplogize, I enjoy your posts!!!

I'm done with this thread. I'm done with this board for a while.

Good day!!!

**** ALL DAYS ARE GOOD IF YOU HAVE YOUR HEALTH, STRENGTH AND MENTAL ABILITIES...
One more time.....

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
****INDY MAN.....WHY ARE SKIPPING MY QUESTION ON PROP 54...HOW DO YOU PLAN TO MONITOR OR MEASURE RACISM, DISCRIMINATION OR PROGRESS AGAINST IT? AS SO FAR AS BITCHY...WHAT THE HELL DOES RODNEY KING HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?
{/QUOTE]
No I haven't skipped you question. You just haven't read the proposition, that's your problem, not mine. Rodney King?? Just making a comparison he's a low life at one end of the spectrum and you are at the other. It's that simple.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kevin41:
NAW...BUT I BET YOU KNOW WHO THE REAL B-TCH IS....TAKE A GUESS......


Mmmmm, YOU!! rotflmao


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
However, Ayres in the New York Times reported that Connerly had indeed listed his firm as minority-owned in order to "keep all the benefits of a government contract."


Where's the evidence????? This guy can say that Connerly is a rapist as well, does it make him so??? I know it would in your mind.



quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
**WHAT MAKES A PERSON SELF-HATING IS WHEN THEY WORK TO DENY THEIR IDENTITY AS A BLACK PERSON....AND THEN ADOPT VIEWS THAT ARE LEGISLATIVELY ADVERSE TO BLACK PEOPLE AS A WAY TO PHILOSOPHICALLY DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROM THE BLACK MAJORITY BECAUSE THEY ARE REALLY NOT ABLE TO PHYSICALLY DO SO.....UNDERSTAND?


No, I do not understand. I can physically distance myself from black according to people who have different perceptions of what constitutes "black". If that were not so, many people wouldn't ask what my hertitage is. And I'm not into group thought, that is for weak minded people....like leftists, and you. I have the views that I have because I think they are right, and I am entitled to hold these views. UNDERSTAND??!!??


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
hell I do not have issues with what race I am....and the MAJORITY of black people embrace my views with open arms......


I don't have any issues with what race I am either, Kev. I am of the Human Race!!!!

Perhaps that's part of the problem with the black community today, that is if the MAJORITY embrace your views with open arms. Victimology. Yes you will be popular with the people who want to hear it, but it will not solve one problem. But hey, that's your right!!!!



quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
LIKE YOU CAN'T GO IT ALONE. BUT THE RODNEY KING STATEMENT IN ITSELF IS AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR B-TCH DEMEANOR. THE CONVERSATION WASN'T BETWEEN ME AND YOU...BUY YOU JUMP IN LIKE HIS B-TCH BECAUSE YOU KNOW HE'LL PROTECT YOU IF FIGHT BREAKS OUT


C'mon, Kev, you know me much better than to post this bs !!! I jumped in to show that she was not the only person that gets treated this way by you. I know that bothers you!!! And without you, I would not have been able to prove my point!!!! Thanks, Kev!!!!
You know I will stand up to anyone on this forum with the FACTS, and I will even acknowledge a good point in my detractors which I have and when I'm wrong, which I have. You should try that, Kev....ah, but you're too good for that. Being humble will get you further in life than being proud!!!!!



quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
ONCE AGAIN AND AS SO FAR AS A VICTIM....I'M SURE LABELING YOU AS BLACK VICTIMIZES YOU DAILY


No not at all!!! Being told I have to think a certain way gets to me more than anything else!!!



quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
**** ALL DAYS ARE GOOD IF YOU HAVE YOUR HEALTH, STRENGTH AND MENTAL ABILITIES...


AGREED!!!!!

I know you must have the last digs, Kev, so then, by all means!!!

Ciao!!!
Indy Man,

Quit eluding to your personal weaknesses as reflective of mine......for the record.....if one doesn't put their hands on me or bother my finances....they do not bother me period......hopefully you understand now so you can quit assigning me weaknesses based on some damn message board. Too bad you are not in person so you can see the difference in being expressive and being perturbed.

Again, why would the media lie on Connerly....multiple sources such as major newspapers......and since you believe as much and want to imply that the papers are lying....have you ever seen a reputable news source say that the other papers were lying on connerly and that he actually wasn't a minority business? I doubt it....too bad it is not worth actually procuring the documents from the appropriate government agency....I'm sure the San Francisco Chronicle and/or New York Times did themselves....because their credibility is/was on the line....especially in the recently heated climate of AA.


As so far as victimology....I haven't seen anything about my life that indicates that and you wouldn't either.....always been an overachiever....DESPITE RACISM.....I always felt they were not smart enough or worked hard enough to keep this brother down....a real victim mentality huh? But if acknowledging the realities of racism in america is victimology...then maybe you need to read what the definition of the word is.....racial profiling, redlining, linguistic profiling, employment discrimination are all realities black people face...if you choose to look the other way....fine.......I choose not to even though I've overcome a lot of those same obstacles......because despite all of the racist things that have been done to me....passed over promotions, denied jobs I was most qualified for, terminated on probationary jobs for speaking out against racist jokes, etc....I just kept learning...and knew one day the knowledge would bypass those intended to hold me back because I was not a bowed-head, foot shuffling Negro. And now that I have reached the level of knowledge I strived to attain....I can make more teaching online part-time in a year than their shiitty azz jobs offered in person taking their BS...not to mention my full time career.....so how you can see that obvious example of using knowledge as a tool of empowerment, independence and changing social and economic conditions as victimology.......beats the hell out of me......


And if blacks speaking out against racism and unfairness is victimology....what is a Negro who accepts their second-class treatment for"acceptance" (an imaginary concept at best). I once heard a white conservative say around the 2000 elections that "diversity and healing is not our business"....now who do you think they were referring to as being diverse and who if any race needs healing from past atrocities? It is crystal clear whom we are alluding to.......

And as so far as being a member of the human race.....that is a species thing, not an ethnic background thing as I am referring to...so as long as society still takes specific actions on the basis of race...then I must deal with reality....not what I would WANT race to be. I am sure you know what I mean......like the brothers used to tell you....black conservatives speak from a principle would they would LIKE conservatism to be.....but the way it is practiced by white males in this country really places blacks in as tokens....with no say so over the agenda........


So once again, how do you measure discrimination, outreach efforts and racial progress in terms of inclusion without racial data.....those issues are separate and apart from the exemptions that were to be placed in the prop if it has passed. please answer me specifically.

As so far as affirmative action, what do you suggest to put into place to see that fairness and inclusion is practiced? Or do you really believe the highest qualified black is always lower than the lowest qualified white...the UM case proved that to be wrong.

Also what about the resultant drops in black participation in gov't contracting...blacks pay taxes like everyone else...so we should be afforded a piece of the pie the good ole boy network likes to keep 100% white male....what are your remedies to see that fairness is there also.....or do you believe that blacks are not qualified or competitive from a business standpoint? Please answer these questions specifically in terms of what you propose as solutions for racism in the societal areas......
Connerly Interview Reveals Hypocrisy
Regent's past actions contradict 209
By Gurman Singh


Excerpts:

Perhaps the most devastating proof of Connerly's hypocrisy is that he has personally benefited from affirmative action. According to the May 8, 1995 edition of the San Francisco Chronicle, Connerly "received more than $1 million in state business during the past six years by signing up as a minority contractor, state records show." When asked about this obvious hypocrisy, Connerly acknowledged that his firm participated in the race-based program, but denied that it was affirmative action.

Connerly claimed that the state program was simply a "policy that requires that every contract ... to include participation of at least 15 percent minority businesses and 5 percent women." Well, Ward, that is affirmative action, and you profited from it. Moreover, the Chronicle states, "The other main part of Connerly's business, the Community Development Block Grants, are awarded under stringent federal affirmative action regulations." Despite his obvious use of affirmative action, Connerly has deceitfully declared, "I have never, ever in my life tried to take advantage of my race to get a benefit."

Ward Connerly's use of minority contracting guidelines proves that he is a cynical, sleazy liar, willing to exploit affirmative action for money but ready to destroy it at the behest of his white patrons. For all his talk of a color-blind society, Connerly has done nothing about the vicious racism in Texaco and Avis. If he's such a champion of a color-blind society, why doesn't he fight against white racism? Notably, Connerly, Wilson and all of the other anti-affirmative action zealots have failed to provide an alternative method to fighting white racism. But then, I'm assuming that they believe that such a thing as white racism even exists. Silly me.


**** Well well..........
Is The Game Over For Ghettopoly?
By Angela D. Johnson

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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October 16, 2003

Citing a violation of its merchant service agreement, Yahoo! has pulled the plug on Ghettopoly's Yahoo! Store. Listings for the product have also been removed from eBay.

"That news to me is good news," said Wayne Charness, SVP of Hasbro, marketer of the original Monopoly concept. While Charness says Hasbro did not request that Yahoo! shut down the Ghettopoly site, the company has sent a cease and desist order to David Chang, the game's creator.

Hasbro contends that Ghettopoly violates its intellectual property rights and is prepared to take legal action if sales continue. In Ghettopoly, traditional Monopoly house and hotel properties are replaced with crack houses and project developments. The money is counterfeit and the banker is a loan shark. Instead of "Get out of jail free" cards, "Ghetto Stash" cards have messages such as "You got your whole neighborhood addicted to crack: Collect $50 from each playa." The game also pokes fun at civil rights leaders such as Malcolm X and the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., who are referred to as Malcum X and Martin Luthor King.

Yahoo!'s merchant service agreement states that the company "reserves the right to refuse to host or continue to host any Store which it believes, in its sole discretion ... offers for sale goods or services ... that are illegal, obscene, vulgar, offensive, dangerous, or otherwise inappropriate."

Illegal or dangerous? Probably not. But many have found Ghettopoly offensive. Earlier this month, civil rights organizations such as the NAACP, Anti-Defamation League and the National Action Network launched protests against Urban Outfitters, the only bricks-and-mortar retailer known to carry the game. Shortly after, the store pulled the products from its shelves.

Discussion of Ghettopoly has reached local nightly news casts as well as blogs and message boards online. While some are thoroughly appalled by the game, others think what the game represents is no different than the images that are presented in rap videos.

For those who were troubled by the game, Yahoo! and eBay, two companies supporting the sale of the game online, replaced Urban Outfitters as a target of protest. eBay removed Ghettopoly product listings from its site on Monday.

Jennifer Caukin, senior manager, communications, at eBay said Ghettopoly "was not consistent with the spirit of our community."

Caukin was unsure as to whether the decision to remove the item was a response to complaints from users; however, she said, "It's not unusual where we would get feedback from our users letting us know about items they feel are offensive."

In the past, eBay has discontinued the sale of potentially offensive items such as Nazi paraphernalia or Black Americana items containing the word "n--ger" in the description. Earlier this year, eBay changed its policy to only allow the term when it is in the official title of the product being sold.

For now, sale of the game online has been halted; however Chang, through a message on the Ghettopoly Web site, has promised to fulfill outstanding orders. According to the site, the game is currently sold out, but Chang anticipates completing more than 10,000 unfilled requests on or around Dec. 10.

Neither Chang nor Yahoo! responded to requests for an interview. However, Chang has posted what he claims is the message he received from Yahoo. It reads in part: "It's been brought to Yahoo!'s attention that your Yahoo! Store has violated the terms of the Yahoo! Terms of Service and/or the Yahoo! Store Merchant Service Agreement ... As of this notice, your Store Ghettopoly has been placed into 'not open' status, which will allow you to finish any pending business. You may not accept new orders or republish your Store."

But for some, the game is not over. According to New York Newsday, activists including New York City Council member John Liu and Council Deputy Majority Leader Bill Perkins are asking for a formal apology from Chang and for proceeds from the sale of the game, which retails for $29.95, to be donated to charities serving minority communities.

"White people should be denouncing this and corporate America should be denouncing this," Perkins was quoted as saying in Newsday. "This is not just the responsibility of the victims but all of us should make sure this game is not on the market."
My vote is in


quote:
STOP THE MARKETING AND SELLING OF THE RACISTS GAME "GHETTOPOLY" IN U.S. STORES AND TO STOP DAVID CHANG (CREATOR) FROM PROFITING OFF POVERTY AND MISFORTUNE IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY !




We endorse the STOP THE MARKETING AND SELLING OF THE RACISTS GAME "GHETTOPOLY" IN U.S. STORES AND TO STOP DAVID CHANG (CREATOR) FROM PROFITING OFF POVERTY AND MISFORTUNE IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY ! Petition to U.S. CONGRESS.


Read the STOP THE MARKETING AND SELLING OF THE RACISTS GAME "GHETTOPOLY" IN U.S. STORES AND TO STOP DAVID CHANG (CREATOR) FROM PROFITING OFF POVERTY AND MISFORTUNE IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY ! Petition



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The STOP THE MARKETING AND SELLING OF THE RACISTS GAME "GHETTOPOLY" IN U.S. STORES AND TO STOP DAVID CHANG (CREATOR) FROM PROFITING OFF POVERTY AND MISFORTUNE IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY ! Petition to U.S. CONGRESS was created by Fed Up Consumers of Negative Stereotypes and written by Faye Grey. The petition is hosted here at www.PetitionOnline.com as a public service. There is no endorsement of this petition, express or implied, by Artifice, Inc. or our sponsors. For technical support please use our simple Petition Help form.
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protest now a federal issue
"The above animated film is a quality piece of work, that has received the best site reviews on the site, however "Who wants to marry a hoochie?" and "Meet the babies' mamas" got the most views.

It appears that our community is consumed with self hate. Granted that you will laugh at what is funny, however the prospective is a bit off (I think)."

More like self-hate, greed, and ignorance.
Not my type of humor, but someone out there is making a mint off of comedy skits based on the real to life perversion of Black people. It is certain somebody from our community helped to write the script for this. No amount of money would be worth me doing anything like this.

....but as usual there are people who act like this in the real, just tune in to one episode of BET, the WB, and/or revisit the sacreligious life style of many of Black America's preachers, deacons, cheap women, etc., and it wouldn't be difficult for any animation artist to create this.

As to Who Wants to Marry a Hoochie!

"Or just revisit the sacreligious life style of White American, Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans, Any Americans and it would not be difficult . . ." by sunnubian

The Above Quotation is Very Far From the Reality of it, Should the Reality be Visited. Can't have the highest rate of ethnic strife in the U.S., and at the same time be so committed to being religious, ethical, moral, constructive, trustworthy, ingenious, competent, etc. Caucasians, Koreans, Hispanics, etc., are not nearly as self destructive as Black people, no matter how the sunnubians attempt to make it seem that it is so!

It is a huge misnomer to believe that Caucasians, Hispanics, Asians, etc., are making complete fools of themselves and/or their people, over the media in a Bet, the WB, etc., in real life. If Caucasian preachers, deacons, etc., overwhelmingly used church tidings received in the name of deceit, like that of Black America, there would be no such institution as the University of Southern California, Loyola University, Cedars Sinai Hospital, the Red Cross, etc. You won't find Caucasians,Koreans, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Arabs, etc., starting a church on virtually every block, pitching tents to conduct religious ceremonies, converting that movie theater into a church, etc., at the expense of business development. Church emphasis over business development would kill off business development, the essense of free enterprise. The promotion of religious doctine over and above the slightest in business development, would kill off sources of tax revenue to pay for government services.

Heck, the huge places of worship, such as a West Los Angeles Church of God and Christ, here in Los Angeles, use the tidings of Black people to build a Cathedral in a West Los Angeles Church, while the building contractors, laborers, architects, engineers, wholesale houses, mortgage companies, escrow companies, etc., are composed of every other ethnic group but Black people. Mind you, the crime, homeless population, and unemployment rate of Black people is the highest in the U.S. The only idiots here are in fact Black people. No other ethnic group is going to finance any multi-million dollar endeavor unless they're getting a return on their investment, the return being:

A. Gainful employment opportunities for their people.

B. A lion's share of the profits.

C. The fruit of the effort to uplift the economic condition of their respective ethnic communities, etc.

_________________________________________

....And Again More Ignorance, This Time by Black Muslims, to Which These Individuals Face Up to 20 Years in Prison, and/or Huge Civil claims Against Their Personal Assets, for Treason Against the U.S.!

....But Wait, according to the contentions of the detractors in a sunnubian, or otherwise Caucasians, Koreans, Hispanics, etc., are well represented in this movement of Treason Against the U.S. too, as it pertains to taking a huge leap in the wrong direction!


"Two Plead Guilty in Terror-Cell Case
From Associated Press

October 17, 2003

PORTLAND, Ore. "” The final two defendants in an alleged Portland terrorist cell pleaded guilty Thursday and agreed to serve 18 years in federal prison.

Patrice Lumumba Ford and Jeffrey L. Battle were among seven Portland-area residents charged with plotting to wage war against U.S. troops in Afghanistan. Four others pleaded guilty earlier. The remaining suspect is thought to have been killed in a shootout in Pakistan.

Ford and Battle pleaded guilty to conspiracy to levy war against the U.S., which carried a maximum sentence of 20 years and a $250,000 fine.

The two men stood in the courtroom and Ford told U.S. District Judge Robert D. Jones, "I plead guilty." Battle then did the same.

Stanley Cohen, a lawyer representing Ford, said his client pleaded guilty because he doubted he could receive a fair trial.

"In this political climate, it is impossible for a black man, a Muslim, an activist to get a fair trial," Cohen said.

The pleas came during a hearing in which defense attorneys intended to challenge evidence gathered under the USA Patriot Act. Because of the pleas, those challenges were not heard.

In Washington, Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft said the pleas showed the worth of new law enforcement powers granted under the act.

In October 2002, agents nabbed Ford, Battle, brothers Ahmed Ibrahim Bilal and Muhammad Ibrahim Bilal and Battle's ex-wife, October M. Lewis, in what Ashcroft called a "defining day" in the fight against terrorism.

A sixth man charged along with them, Jordanian native Habis Abdulla Al Saoub, may have been among eight Al Qaeda suspects killed in an Oct. 2 shootout in Pakistan, officials in Washington said Thursday. The officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said they were waiting for a final identification.

In the spring, authorities arrested a seventh suspect, Maher "Mike" Hawash.

Prosecutors said the group plotted to join the Taliban in fall 2001 to fight against the U.S. armed forces then fighting in Afghanistan. The six male defendants traveled to China in a failed attempt to enter Afghanistan, according to court documents.

Prosecutors said Lewis wired $2,130 to her ex-husband while he traveled overseas. Lewis last month pleaded guilty to money laundering and agreed to testify against her former husband and Ford.

In September, the Bilal brothers pleaded guilty to charges including conspiring to help Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Both face up to 14 years in federal prison.

Hawash pleaded guilty in August to conspiring to aid the Taliban and agreed to testify against other suspects. He will serve at least seven years in federal prison."

"the scorn that some of us have for the black race proves that the residual behavior from slavery is still present....when many of us were convinced to think low of ourselves without seeing what forces placed us in the situation we were in.....they know damn well none of these behaviors are exclusive to blacks....but phrasing it as such makes them feel better about themselves......" by the various nay sayers...

Should Black America's Own Elected Leadership Use False Pretenses to Seek or Hold Elected Office Instead of Condemnation or Recall, These Very Disgraceful, Deceitful, Criminal, Unethical, Un-American, Incompetent, and/or Sleazy Individuals Receive a Multitude in Commendation and/or Community Support for Re-election to Public Service, by Black America's Own Heavily Democratic Voting Middle Class!

The Blatant Greed, Sleaze, and/or Ignorance of Black People in Positions of Authority, Prove This to be True!

.....but wait, due to over 400 years of slavery, Jim Crowe activity, some of which Black people have also enslaved or perpetrated "Jim Crowe" activity against other Black people,...this is as good an excuse as any to continue that downward spiral of ignorance, as described in the aforementioned material. There really is no excuse for being so self destructive, simple minded, sleazy, sacreligious, untrustworthy, treasonous, un-American, etc. Black people continue to be their own worst enemy, to which Black people cannot continue to blame their own incompetence on the vestibule of slavery past, without taking responsibility for their own actions to be constructive as opposed to being uncouth, unethical, immoral, disgraceful, sleazy, and/or blatantly self destructive!

...But Wait, Just Suppose Your Argument Has A Long Shot Possibility of Being True....Then Because Caucasians, Koreans, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Jews, the Hispanics, etc., Commit Violent Crime on Par With Black Folks, Therefore It Is Perfectly In Order for Black People to Senselessly Seriously Maim or Kill An Even Greater Number of Black People on a Daily Basis!

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 17, 2003 at 11:54 PM.]
....but as usual there are people who act like this in the real, just tune in to one episode of BET, and/or revisit the sacreligious life style of many of Black America's preachers, deacons, cheap women, etc., and it wouldn't be difficult for any animation artist to create this.

Or just revisit the sacreligious life style of white American, Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans, Any Americans and it would not be difficult . . .
thanks sunnubian,

you have to constantly remind this cat that those are PEOPLE behaviors that he assumes are BLACK behaviors...if he went to Portland oregon, he'd see white guys with lowriders, pants off their azzes, guns, drugs, weed, drinky-drink and all those things he vehemently proclaims that are in black communities across the country.........not that two wrongs make a right...it is just that he has to acknowledge ALL wrongs to be accurate in his assessment....if not, it just come across as racist or self-hating to emphasize one race's behavior.........
I just get so tired of seeing and hearing of all the negative images that people chose to force on only African American and African American communities. It seems that people forget the American part of African Americans - in that we are also Americans and some of us have adopted as well the negative behaviors that are American practices. It is wrong to assume that every Black person from a poor community is a drug addict, drug dealer, "cheap woman" or is someone without any morals. Every group, every race, every nation, every family always have and always will have a certain percentage of deviance. Who are we, African Americans that we should be so perfect as to not have people on drugs, criminals, "cheap women" -every otehr group or race, etc. has the same. We really or no different that anyone else (excluding the blanket image that propagandists force on us everyday). Why do we deserve so much criticism and hatred for the negative that some African Americans engage in? It is the racism and discrimination that forces African Americans throughout this country to be mainly populated together in predominately Black poor communities, otherwise you would see African Americans sparsely populated through out all American communities and the drug use, crime, and immorality would go largely unnoticed - at least no more than where any other Americans were concerned. But since most African American live in predominately Black communities that are also poor communities, the propagandists can go directly to one community, point out the negative and low and behold all the faces on deviates will be Black and this can be done over and over again, on community after another all across the country - Atlanta, Chicago, Detroit, New York, etc. Every time the media wants to talk about drugs, prostitution, crime, or anything else negative or immoral they head straight for a predominately Black city, a predominately Black town, a predominately Black community - making sure to bypass all the predominately white towns, and communties indulging in such activities leaving a false image of it somehow being only Black behavior. I think to have such a one track mind believing negative stereo-types of African Americans is not different that believing that because you know of some Black people that are crazy, you then assume that all Black people are crazy, and worse, because they are black and not because of whatever illness they may have; or its as insane as me being a person from the deep south, growing up before intergration believing that every white person I see wants to lynch me or make me a slave.
sunnubian,

the scorn that some of us have for the black race proves that the residual behavior from slavery is still present....when many of us were convinced to think low of ourselves without seeing what forces placed us in the situation we were in.....they know damn well none of these behaviors are exclusive to blacks....but phrasing it as such makes them feel better about themselves......
This came from another Black discussion board.
quote:
General - Racist creator of Ghettopoly wrote me!!! Subscribe
From: jusrhymz Oct-11 4:30 am
To: ALL (1 of 64)

56078.1

The bastard wrote me back. I noticed the civil responses got nothing out of him, so I got gully on his asian ass. All he had to say was....

To: jusrhymz@blackvoices.com
Subject: Re: I want to order 10 Games Sir
From: David Chang Add to Contacts
Date: Wed, Oct 8 2003 3:43:29 AM -0700 (PDT


Go fuck yourself you loser.

jusrhymz@blackvoices.com wrote:

SIKE

YOU RACIST ASIAN PIECE OF SHIT. How dare insult
my people, with a game you call "fun." You come
to this country my ancestors built for free,
and you disrespect black people who are trying
to rise back to power with this crap. You claim
to be insulting asians BUT WHERE IS THAT ASIANOPOLY GAME you sick
RACIST needle dick bastard?

I have an Idea.

"Chinkopoly" or "Slanteyeopoly"

We could use Massage Parlors instead of
crackhouses.

Asian Sweatshop Manufacturing Buildings instead of
hotels.

For pieces we can use...

Chop Sticks.

Done up Finger Nails since you all own nail
shops.

Asian prostitutes (lots of white boys use them
right).

and of COURSE my favorite

Atomic Bomb!

Properties will be ASIAN COLONIES of the
british, and some of the chance cards will say
shit like COLLECT 200 For Temporary Fuck from a
white man or some shit. If you want to insult
us, it's war then.





Obviously, if Chang though all of this was so funny, he would have laughed it off, but instead he said with a very hot head Go fuck yourself you loser.

Apparently it's not so funny, and he continues to try to sell the games.

Perhaps the tactic of bait and switch should continue? The law of two wrongs [not wongs] making a right.

>

... its time for Prosperity


> > >



An African American Board Game Of Wealth & Success.

The Dark Side of Ghettopoly, Which Speaks to the Rarity of Black Men Who have Not been subjects to Felony Penal Incarceration!

In addition, untold numbers of truly innocent Black men and women have been, still are, and/or continue to be, illegally incarcerated, due to:

A. Lack of competent representation, in a defense attorney, elected representative, and/or public outcry in behalf of those who are punished for crimes not committed.

B. Overzealous city or county prosecutors.

C. Biased juries.

D. A failing judicial system.

It is certain that anyone who is subjected to unwarranted, illegal incarceration would be extremely angry, and/or has the prospect of being extremely violent upon release from a "Pelican Bay", CIW, Corcoran, Chow Chilla, etc., as it relates to felony penal incarceration! A few years ago, corrupt Corcoran prison guards were exhonorated for inciting for their personal enjoyment, or gambling for entertainment, the very inhumane promotion of "human cock fights" between prison inmates


"A necessary evil?

Pelican Bay State Prison houses 'the worst of the worst' in the starkest isolation imaginable. but these 'supermax' units are turning inmates into mental cases.

By Vince Beiser

Special to The Times

October 19, 2003

It's quiet in pod C5, deep inside Pelican Bay State Prison's Security Housing Unit, home to about 1,200 of California's most violent offenders. There are no sounds from outside, because there are no windows"”only a skylight high overhead, through which gray daylight seeps into the bare quadrangle facing the pod's eight cells, stacked four on four. All that can be heard are a few subdued voices, and the occasional thunderous sound of a flushing toilet reverberating off the blank concrete walls.

This is not the crowded, clamorous kind of prison you see in the movies. The SHU, as it's known, is a starkly efficient place of electronically controlled doors and featureless concrete and steel. Occasionally, the monotony is punctured by bursts of noise and violence. Sometimes inmates scream at guards, other inmates, or themselves. Sometimes there is the clangorous racket of a recalcitrant prisoner being forcibly extracted from his cell. But most of the time, nothing happens. Almost nothing is permitted to happen. That's the idea of the SHU.

If you're an inmate in a regular prison"”even a maximum-security prison, which the other two wings of Pelican Bay are"”most days you can play basketball in the yard or cards in the day room, work in the laundry room or dining hall and take meals with the other men on your tier.

In the SHU, there are no jobs, no activities, hardly any educational programs and barely any human contact. You are locked in your 8-by-10-foot cell almost around the clock. You can't see the other prisoners in the cells adjoining yours, nor the guards watching from a central observation booth. Most of the time, all you can see through the fingertip-sized perforations in your cell's solid steel door is the wall of the eight-cell pod, the larger cage containing your cage. Guards deliver your meals. Once a day, the remote-controlled cell door grinds open, and you get 90 minutes to spend alone in a walled-in courtyard"”a place more like the bottom of a mine shaft than an exercise yard. It's an environment about as restrictive and monotonous as human minds can design"”and, perhaps, as human minds can tolerate.

Pelican Bay, which sprawls over 275 acres just south of the Oregon border, in a Tolkienesque region of misty mountains and ancient redwood forests, was among the first of a wave of new prisons equipped with ultra-restrictive "supermax" lockups that have proliferated nationwide in recent years. There are as many as 20,000 inmates housed in such facilities in at least 30 states.

California has three SHUs for men in its Pelican Bay, Corcoran and Tehachapi lockups, plus one for women in Valley State Prison in Chowchilla. They house about 3,000 convicts in all. But Pelican Bay is the one with the hardest cons and the harshest conditions, the end of the line for the inmates whom correctional officials call "the worst of the worst."

Like their counterparts in other states, California corrections officials say they need SHUs to control incorrigibly violent cons in the state's vast archipelago of prisons, teeming with nearly 160,000 inmates. While no one could argue with that goal, there are significant concerns about the tactic. For starters, it's not clear to what extent SHUs are indeed reducing prison violence.

More disturbingly, there's a growing worry that supermaxes"”long decried by prisoner advocates as dangerous to the mental health of inmates"”may be breeding danger for the general public.

Psychiatrists, activists and some correctional officials say the intense isolation of supermaxes is producing prisoners who are uncontrollably furious and sometimes violently deranged. Most of those prisoners will one day be set free. In the past three years, in fact, nearly 1,000 California SHU inmates at the end of their sentences were moved to less-restrictive prisons for just a few weeks, and then released.

And at least 403 inmates were paroled without even that intermediate step: They were taken straight from the solitary cells where they spent years marinating in their rage, handed $200 in gate money and put on a bus to rejoin the rest of us.

"T.C.," a Pelican Bay SHU inmate who, like most of the nearly two dozen current and former SHU prisoners interviewed for this article did not want his name published, wrote: "How does society expect a person to act once he has been released from the SHU, in most cases after spending years back here? There are things that happen here which people out there are never aware of; these things tend to build anger and hate in some persons, and if these persons don't have anyone to talk to, or complain to, that anger and hate continues to grow. If that person paroles, he's now a human time bomb waiting to release all that anger and hate, waiting to explode."

you can hardly blame prison authorities for liking the idea of supermaxes. Prison guards are spit on, screamed at and assaulted daily. Reducing the chances of being stabbed in the neck with a sharpened toothbrush is understandably a higher priority for them than fretting over how solitary confinement might change an inmate's mood.

But America's supermaxes have been denounced as inhumane by organizations from the ACLU to the United Nations. Fistfuls of lawsuits have been filed in recent years challenging conditions in supermaxes from California to Massachusetts. Some have succeeded in forcing changes. The latest, a suit on behalf of a Pelican Bay inmate charging that long-term SHU confinement constitutes cruel and unusual punishment, is slated to go to trial in December. So far, the courts have upheld the constitutionality of supermax-style imprisonment. But just because they're legal doesn't necessarily mean they're good policy. In fact, Democratic state Sen. Gloria Romero of Los Angeles, head of the Senate's Select Committee on the California Correctional System, has launched a campaign to investigate how supermaxes are affecting prisoners"”and the public.

No question the Pelican Bay SHU holds a great many extraordinarily malicious men. Most of California's top prison gang leaders are there, including such luminaries as Aryan Brotherhood shot-callers Paul "Cornfed" Schneider and Dale Bretches, the original owners of the dogs that mauled a San Francisco woman to death in 2001. The day before my visit there this year, a SHU inmate who was appearing in court stabbed his own lawyer with an ice pick-like shank he apparently had hidden in what a Pelican Bay spokesman referred to as his "keister."

There is considerable debate, however, about whether everyone in the SHU deserves to be there. No one is in the SHU for crimes they committed on the streets; you get sent there for doing something while you're in prison.

This works in two ways. The first is straightforward: If you violate prison rules"”say, being caught with drugs or for attacking another inmate"”you can be sent to the SHU for a set period of time as punishment.

The second is more ambiguous: Simply being declared a member or associate of a prison gang lands you in the SHU"”indefinitely. About half the state's SHU inmates are in for this reason. Aside from getting paroled or going certifiably insane, the only way a "gang-validated" inmate can be released from the SHU is by "debriefing""”confessing everything he knows about other gang members, which entails obvious risks"”or by convincing prison officials that he has been free from gang activity for six years.

"Prison gang members and associates are responsible for the largest percentage of violence in our institutions," says Steve Moore, the head of gang-related issues for the California Department of Corrections. "The idea is to extract those people from the general population."

Corrections officials and prisoners agree that California's half-dozen major prison gangs"”Nazi Low Riders, Aryan Brotherhood, Black Guerrilla Family and several Latino factions"”are behind a hefty chunk, though certainly not all, of the trouble in prisons statewide, from stabbings to drug dealing. And as the number of people cycling through the prison system has swelled in recent years, some of those gangs are believed to have begun forging increasingly close links with street gangs on the outside.

Activists and inmates, however, charge that the department's criteria for determining gang membership are overly broad, sending many undeserving inmates to supermax solitary. SHU inmates in Corcoran and Pelican Bay have staged two hunger strikes in the past two years over the issue, and Romero convened a hearing in September to investigate the corrections department's policy of identifying gang members. "I have very serious concerns about the validation process," Romero said at the hearing, held in Los Angeles. "In this time of constrained budgets, it's a good time to look at who is going into SHUs and whether they should really be there."

In response to these criticisms, Moore ordered a review of all gang validations. As of September, his office had looked at several hundred cases and found 17 that didn't pass muster.

Regardless of why prisoners are put in the SHU, perhaps the most pressing concern for the public is the inmates' mental states upon release. Dr. Stuart Grassian, a Boston psychiatrist who lectured at Harvard Medical School, has been studying the effects of solitary confinement for more than two decades, during which time he has examined more than 100 supermax prisoners, including 50 at Pelican Bay. His conclusion: Supermax prisons can literally drive inmates crazy.

"There are many scores of cases of people who never suffered psychiatric illnesses and developed them while incarcerated in supermaxes," he says. Other mental health professionals agree. "I've seen many prisoners with no history of mental illness who after some time in the SHU started cutting themselves," says Dr. Terry Kupers, an Oakland-based psychiatrist with decades of experience in prison work. "I've almost never seen self-mutilation among adult males anywhere else, but it's very common in SHUs." At the landmark Madrid v. Gomez federal trial in 1995 over conditions at Pelican Bay, even the prison's senior staff psychologist acknowledged seeing psychiatric deterioration among some SHU prisoners.

Supermax prisoners often develop similar symptoms, Grassian says. These include hallucinations; hypersensitivity to external stimuli; paranoia; panic attacks; hostile fantasies involving revenge, torture and mutilation; and violent or self-destructive outbursts, to the extent of gouging out one's eyes, smearing oneself with feces or biting chunks of flesh from one's own body.

Take Matthew Lowe, convicted of armed robbery, assault on a peace officer and grand theft auto. During his three years in the Pelican Bay SHU, Lowe never got to the point of biting off pieces of his sizable biceps, but in other ways he fits Grassian's diagnosis of a mentally ill inmate. Lowe is a big guy in baggy jeans and a motorcycle-shop sweatshirt, with a tiny soul patch on his chin and tattoos on his neck and fingers. At 38, he has spent most of his life behind bars, but he says his time in the SHU changed him in a way prison never had before.

"Them years of sitting in that little cell"”it did something to me, I don't even know what," says Lowe, sitting on a couch in his girlfriend's tidy bungalow in a blue-collar suburb of San Francisco. "I only had conversations with about five or six people in three years. I'd sit in there and just think about doing crazy [stuff] all the time, like Tim McVeigh-type [stuff]. Your average prison doesn't do that to you." After years of obsessively ruminating about blowing up buildings and shooting cops, Lowe was finally paroled last year. He was taken from his SHU cell, shifted to San Quentin for a few days and then let out onto the streets of Marin County.

So far, he's doing all right, working as a roof-gutter installer and going to AA meetings. But he scares himself with how jumpy and paranoid he has become. "So many times I've come so close to snapping since I got out," he says. "One time in a store, someone cut in front of me in line"”a 50-year-old guy, I don't think he even realized it. I had to catch myself, because my first thought was just to smash him."

penal solitary confinement was essentially invented in the united States. In the late 1700s, whips and stocks were the preferred tools of public punishment. But reformers argued that by isolating criminals, their consciences would naturally lead to repenting their evil ways.

In 1790, Pennsylvania opened the first prison designed for this purpose, dubbed a "penitentiary." Several American states and European nations soon followed suit. But the penitentiaries gradually fell out of favor as evidence began to mount that they were often driving inmates mad. As the Supreme Court observed in an 1890 ruling condemning the penitentiary system: "A considerable number of prisoners fell, after even a short confinement, into a semi-fatuous condition . . . and others became violently insane; others still, committed suicide; while those who stood the ordeal better were not generally reformed."

Still, solitary confinement continued to be used as a short-term punishment for inmates. But the idea of keeping large numbers of convicts permanently in such severe conditions didn't return until the 1980s, as America's prison population began mushrooming. Driven largely by tough anti-drug and "three-strikes"-type mandatory minimum sentencing laws, the number of Americans behind bars has quadrupled since 1980 to an all-time high of about 2 million today. In the same get-tough-on-criminals spirit, many states have also cut back educational programs, exercise facilities and other "perks" for prisoners. Violence grew apace. Desperate to restore order to the federal maximum-security lockup at Marion, Ill., authorities in 1983 put the entire facility on indefinite lockdown. Under the administrations of then-Gov. George Deukmejian and then-Corrections Department head James Rowland, California was among the first states to copy the concept, opening SHUs at Corcoran in 1988, and Pelican Bay in 1989.

Pelican Bay came under fire almost right away, both over alleged abuses by guards and conditions in the SHU. In the Madrid v. Gomez decision, U.S. District Court Judge Thelton Henderson ruled that there was a "pattern of brutality" by the guards. On whether the SHU itself was damaging to inmates' mental health, he ruled that while the SHU "may press the outer bounds of what most humans can psychologically tolerate" and could seriously exacerbate previously existing mental illnesses, there was not enough proof to show that it could drive a sane man mad.

Pelican Bay instituted several reforms as a result of the case, including creating a 127-bed psychiatric unit and beefing up its mental-health staff to a total of 79. As far as the prison was concerned, that took care of the problem. "We moved all of those with mental illnesses into the [psychiatric unit] after the Madrid decision," declares Rawland Swift, who, until recently, was the Pelican Bay spokesman. Certainly, the SHU's conditions aren't as extreme as those that so appalled the 1890 Supreme Court. Pelican Bay SHU inmates can talk to others in neighboring cells, receive letters and see visitors (through security glass) on weekends. Those who can afford them have TVs (though they can only watch during the day and must listen through earphones). Most occasionally leave their cells for brief excursions to court or for medical treatment.

A select number of SHU inmates even have cellmates, but most are housed alone, and the overwhelming bulk of their time is spent in a small concrete and steel box. It seems entirely possible that a good many SHU inmates are losing their grip on reality"”whether their keepers acknowledge it or not.

Prisoners are given mental-health attention if their guards"”hardly experts in such matters"”deem their behavior strange enough to warrant an examination. Swift told me that while seemingly troubled prisoners are often taken to the psychiatric unit for evaluation, the psychiatrists almost always send them back, saying, "He's got a behavioral problem, not a mental health problem." This echoes disturbingly a finding of the judge in the Madrid decision: "It is clear . . . that an overburdened, and sometimes indifferent, mental health staff is far too quick to dismiss an inmate as a 'malingerer' and thus deny him needed treatment."

Almost all of the inmates I interviewed (and at least one correctional officer who did not want to be named) said they had seen other prisoners suffer serious mental deterioration in the SHU"”screaming, banging on doors, cutting themselves. "I have seen plenty of people lose their sanity while in the SHU. I used to think that they were faking it . . . but once being around them for a while you could see that it was no act," writes Pelican Bay SHU inmate Otis Booker. "When you hear a guy holding a conversation with himself, or calling out cadences to exercises that he's not even doing or growling out animal sounds all day, you know something's not right."

Grassian estimates that as many as one-third of all supermax inmates are suffering some kind of psychiatric trouble"”most of which goes undiagnosed. "A guard may see a prisoner hiding under a blanket, obviously delusional, but as long as he's not screaming or throwing feces, he's OK as far as they're concerned," Grassian says.

All of which could help explain the case of Erik Scott January, convicted of armed robbery. His mother, Long Beach resident Laura Daniher, says that before he was sent to the Corcoran SHU in 1997, January had no history of mental health problems. After a couple of years in the SHU, though, he started raving about the evil spirits he saw dancing on the walls.

In a letter to her from mid-2001, January writes relatively lucidly for most of two pages, asking about her house and other chitchat"”and then mentions that he has been seeing things and experiencing other "strange occurrences." A few months later, another letter makes it apparent he has left reality far behind: "I am Tutankamen mother. . . . take a time to pray to your hi Hitler power of white skin because I need some hand in time I need hand time handtime . . . god is the sun I am the sun I am Satan I am Lucifer."

Vanessa Filley, a member of California Prison Focus, a San Francisco-based advocacy group, visited January early last year and found him "in a delusional state," suffering "visual hallucinations." In a letter to the warden asking that January be taken out of the SHU, Filley states that she was told by a Corcoran psychiatrist that January "is not dysfunctional to the point of forced intervention, therefore barring any specific behavior we can't do anything." At the time of this writing, January was still in the SHU.

certainly, shus don't drive everyone over the threshold of clinical insanity. But they may have dangerous effects short of that. What happens when you take a man who had antisocial and violent impulses to begin with, lock him in a cell by himself for five or 10 years, and then let him out?

"It's like keeping a dog that has bitten someone in a cage, kicking it and beating it all the time until it gets as crazy and vicious as it can be, and then one day you open the cage and run away," Grassian says. "Taking someone straight from the Pelican Bay SHU and sending them back to San Francisco or Los Angeles is about as dangerous a thing as you can do."

Even some corrections officials agree. "From my experience as a prison administrator, the prolonged confinement of inmates with little or no contact with others will only make people worse," Jerry Enomoto, a former California director of corrections, said when the Madrid lawsuit first hit the courts. (Current Department of Corrections director Ed Alameida did not respond to several requests for an interview.)

Some people, of course, are less affected by the SHU than others. But at best, it seems, coming out of the SHU often leaves prisoners dangerously ill-equipped to cope with the stress of being around other people.

"Tony" is a 30-year-old Latino and former gangbanger with a generous mustache and hair cropped so short you can see the scars on his head. He has done time in both the Corcoran and Pelican Bay SHUs. Since his parole last year, he has been living with his mom in a quiet Bay Area town and working as a diesel mechanic. On the spring afternoon I met him, an ancient little dog was asleep on a pillow in the front yard next to Tony's massive weight set.

Like Matthew Lowe, Tony was sent straight home from the SHU after a few days in San Quentin. "On my first day out, my mom took me to the grocery store," he says. "I blew up on a couple of people. There was some woman who came up about five feet behind me, and I turned and said, 'Don't stand so close to me!' " Months later, he still breaks out in hot sweats when he's out in crowds. The day before, he says he found himself moving warily away from an elderly woman standing behind him in line at the post office. "I'm not the same," he says. "Look at me, I'm paranoid of a 90-year-old lady in the post office. It's from being so isolated. No wonder people who've been in five or six years come out and kill people."

There have been at least a few hair-raisingly brutal crimes committed by convicts fresh out of supermaxes. In 1992, one day after getting out of the Pelican Bay SHU, Robert Lee Davenport, 24, kidnapped, beat and raped a woman in El Cerrito. In 1995, within a week of his release from the same facility, Robert Walter Scully, 36, killed a Sonoma County sheriff's deputy, took hostages and barricaded himself inside a house in a standoff with police before finally surrendering.

Judging from the media coverage and conversations with people who remember these cases, it doesn't seem that anyone made the connection, or pointed to the SHUs as possibly having contributed to crimes committed by former SHU inmates. Grassian says he has served as consultant on more than a dozen similar cases nationwide. There may be more crimes to add to this list, but no one keeps track of what happens to SHU inmates as a group after they are freed to their parole officers. They are just another former con.

According to Department of Corrections statistics, killings in California prisons dropped dramatically in the years immediately after the Corcoran and Pelican Bay SHUs opened. But the total rate of assaults in the state prisons has been rising since. As of 2000, the inmate-on-inmate assault rate was just as high as in the years before the SHUs opened, and the rate of armed assaults on staff was even higher. Despite its oppressive security, there were 221 assaults in the Pelican Bay SHU last year"”inmates assaulting guards when they are taken to court, for example, or by ingenious methods such as firing homemade blowguns though the perforations in their cell doors. More ominously, in the past two years federal prosecutors have charged more than a dozen members of two prison gangs with directing"”via letters and visitors"”scores of murders and attempted murders in prisons around the country from their cells in the Pelican Bay SHU.

Moore is aware of all this. But, he says, the SHUs are better than nothing. "We have much better investigative tools with the gang leaders in the SHUs," he says. "We know where they are. We can monitor them more closely. Will we ever totally stop them? No. But are we hindering them? Yes. And the best way we've found so far to do that is the SHU."

This is a common view among supermax supporters. Still, as a 1999 National Institute of Corrections report on these facilities points out, "There exists little or no hard data comparing such perceived impacts on entire systems versus the fiscal cost to gain such results." That's no small matter, considering how prodigiously expensive supermaxes are. Taxpayers forked over $218 million to build Pelican Bay, and spend $115 million every year to keep it running. It costs California about $28,000 per year to hold an average prisoner, but SHU inmates, with their elaborate security measures, cost substantially more. The Department of Corrections won't provide an exact figure, but most experts estimate the cost is as much as two or three times greater.

"We should definitely be looking at ways to reduce the number of inmates in SHUs," says state Sen. Romero, who visited Pelican Bay in June. "We may not like the fact that someone is a gang member, but is that a reason to throw them in this prison-in-a-prison? I'm not convinced of that, especially given the high costs." She aims to keep up pressure on the corrections department to modify its gang-validation policy, and to have more research done into what happens to SHU inmates after they are released.

It makes more sense, says Charles Carbone, an attorney with California Prison Focus, to deal with chronic violent offenders on a case-by-case basis, rather than shovel everyone who might be involved in violence into SHUs. "The purpose of the SHU can be served in each prison by administrative segregation," he says, referring to a type of solitary confinement that's not as restrictive and long. "But even then, those people should not be cut off from rehabilitative programs. In fact, they should get more. Cutting them off completely from all stimulation does nobody any good."

Psychiatrist Kupers, among others, believes the main cause of the surge in violence in the '80s was overcrowding and the idleness that resulted from programs being cut. "If you take everything away, prisoners become desperate, and therefore uncontrollable," he says. "Crowding, idleness and lack of rehabilitation cause violence. And no amount of supermaxes will stop that."

Even if you believe SHUs are necessary, Grassian says, they can be modified to make them more humane. In particular, Grassian recommends creating a transitional program to slowly reintroduce inmates to interaction with other people, something that happens in several other states. At present, with the exception of prisoners who are debriefed, the only pre-release preparation Pelican Bay SHU inmates are offered is a voluntary program that primarily consists of watching videos.

Making visits easier could also ease the transition, with prisoners housed in SHU facilities closer to home. Most experts agree that prisoners who maintain family ties generally do better after release. But Pelican Bay is a solid 14-hour drive from Los Angeles, its biggest single source of inmates; getting up there is a challenge for many families. "That visiting room is never full, even though there are over 1,000 people in the SHU," says Oakland resident Helen Grimes, who makes the trek almost every month to visit her son.

No such changes seem likely to happen soon, however. While the current state budget boosts corrections spending overall, it cut funds for inmate-related programs. Gov. Gray Davis understood well that most voters are not especially concerned about what happens to prisoners in SHUs or elsewhere. For them, the moral equation seems simple: Prisoners broke the law; let them suffer the consequences.

But most of the prisoners locked away in the maddening solitude of the SHUs will one day be freed to return to our midst"”some of them angrier, more impulsive and more unbalanced than ever. And we will all have to live with those consequences."

______________________________________

On the Corrupt Corcoran Prison Guards Exhonorated, and Other Improprieties!

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 20, 2003 at 12:03 AM.]
Ain't no body, like the majestic African body, all dressed up in chains and shackles. Afterall, that's what the African wore when he arrived here in 1619. All those chaines, shackles, alllllllllll that splendiferous NAKEDNESS. Slavery. Slavery. Slavery. 'Tis all it is. AFRICAN MEN. Whatever you did to get yourself into this SHU situation, was it worth it??????? You've been damn fools long enough. Be the MAJESTIC Man you are and were meant to be!! You're so handsome, when you have it allllll together. No one can compete. Your mother didn't bring you to this planet to get yourself into your situation. You shouldn't have been allowed to make HER cry. You didn't come to Earth all by yourself. Those labor pains were a *itch!!! WAKE-UP!!!!!!!
While I dont agree with Ghettopoly David Chang did make some valid points. He stated why there wasnt an outcry when black rappers used words like "chinky eyed" in their rap songs. He also stated that the game is called ghettopoly not blackopoly (since ghettos are not just black) so chinkopoly will not be a fair comparison. He also pointed out that theere were other races in the ghettopoly game including asians and whites but the media seemed to just focus on the black stereotypes. Lastly he admits hip hop inspired him.

To him I would say that if the Asian community spoke up a bit more then blacks would watch what they say in rap music and on tv. But like I said he brought up some good points.
What rapper made the racist remark "chinky eyed" when it came to referencing someone of East Asian descent? It sounds like Mr. Chang is trying to deflect critcism of his board game by attempting to shift focus on an issue that is non-existent. Mr. Chang was wrong and so was Urban Outfitters for putting that mess out.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
I would think "chinky-eyed" is a racist usage, regardless of what it referred to. To put it in perspective, imagine the term "niggery lips" used to describe pouty lips. Even if it's used to describe somebody white or Asian, and even if it's meant as a compliment to their full lips, I personally would have a problem with the term. The use of "chinky-eyed" is no different.

That doesn't give him the right to expect no protest about Ghettopoly, though. Just because the Asian community is not vocal about racial slights against them, doesn't mean that other people should be silent when Asians offend us.
quote:
He also stated that the game is called ghettopoly not blackopoly (since ghettos are not just black) so chinkopoly will not be a fair comparison.

Do you believe everything someone tells you?
You make it sound like David Chang is an honorable man... "he's just misunderstood", huh? Maverick?

Click over onto the GHETTOPOLY website and see if you see anyone else "in the ghetto" besides Black people (caricatures)...

Do you own or have you seen the game for yourself?
If not you can testify to the truth of it but the whole promotion makes Ghetto synonomous with Black. I know you're not gonna pretend like you can't see that?

And people really need to stop trying to include MUSIC & COMEDY into the equation when few have anything to say about the MOVIES... NO ASIANS complained about RUSH HOUR... I don't see him referring to that as an example like the "chinky eyed" thing.

And yes, if he or you are going to repeat that it showed be attributed to its source. Which rapper said it and/or what song?
Oh no not you again. Do you listen to hip hop yourself Nmaginate? If you watched BET's 106 and Park a year ago there was an Asian rapper named Jin who won a freestyle battle against a black rapper who made some racially insensitive remarks to Jin involving Chinese egg rolls. Granted he didnt complain but like I said if Asians spoke up... I have also heard several rappers use the word chinky eyed or slanted eyed in their raps to describe certain females. I will get you their names in due course but at the top of my head the only rappers I can remember by name using the words are a white rapper named Milkbone on a Death Row compilation album, Foxy Brown who may have been using it to describe herself but I will check on that and Chino XL who rhymed that he "could kill more slanted eyes than the Japanese Earthquake". But I guess that isnt enough proof for you Nmaginate is it? You probably want me to play the records for you until you are satisfied right? Better yet we can both stop being intellectually lazy and look it up in google or you yourself could ask David Chang where he heard those rhymes? Just a suggestion.

Good point on the ghettopoly term but couldnt one use a less obvious offensive title than chinkopoly?
Ah!!!

What race is CHINO XL?

And if FOXY BROWN used it referencing herself... WHERE IS THE OFFENSE?

AND you call 106 & Park "Rap Music" as in industry driven/created? Please!!!!!!!!!!!

Just say that you have something against rap music and be done with it. I doubt very seriously that anyone on this board is "happy" with the state of affairs with rap music but to demonize it and to create the false impression that BLACKS are constantly disrespecting others (which is what most would gather from the original context here) then you need to be EXPOSED for the FRAUD you are!

All of those references that you could think of would not qualify in the way you originally projected them.

You are about as bad a WHITE RACIST because you don't see that there are always stereotypical portrayals of people in the media and entertainment...

Comedians BLACK & WHITE (and otherwise) talk about RACE and use stereotypes of both their own and other races as a NORM... There are NO exceptions (by race).

MOVIE either big-screen or broadcast do also.

Essentially, I doubt anyone in this country would ever speak up if it wasn't for the long tradition of Black people standing up... Seems to me others would just about take it lying down save maybe Native Americans.

And to cite a White Rapper as one to use a 'questionable' race reference in the context we're talking about completely shatters your credibility... Maverick!
quote:
Better yet we can both stop being intellectually lazy and look it up in google or you yourself could ask David Chang where he heard those rhymes? Just a suggestion.


You brought it up because you believe everything you here. The responsibility falls on you. I asked you to support your claims or what you decided to parrot.

I'm not like you, so even if I did ask Chang that doesn't mean I will believe everything he says verbatim.

HAVE YOU EVER LISTEN TO COMEDIANS OF ALL RACES TALK ABOUT RACE?

What part of the movies where White people try to act "Black" (stereotypically so) have you missed? How many commercials doing the same have you missed?

Certainly, as much as WHITE PEOPLE and others would like to believe Black people are not that uptight about racial references otherwise you would here a lot more protest if we were trying to make an issue out of every little thing to come along.

Maverick,
I can't help your ignorance... and your gullibility.
Nmaginate,

the great "other than black" defenders are at it again....when it is all said and done, we'll find out that they were all warped white people satisfying some sick fetish they have....I have to give black people the benefit of the doubt....but then the connerly's, elders, hamblins, sowell, armstrongwilliams are batting in that neighborhood of pathological, illogical delusional, unrealistic thinking.......these cats could defend toliet paper against schit because one is brown and the other is white.......they are something else.....
I would think "chinky-eyed" is a racist usage, regardless of what it referred to. To put it in perspective, imagine the term "niggery lips" used to describe pouty lips. Even if it's used to describe somebody white or Asian, and even if it's meant as a compliment to their full lips, I personally would have a problem with the term. The use of "chinky-eyed" is no different.

I don't see why this makes Maverick a hip-hop hater. I don't see why it makes ME a hip hop hater. or a "other-than-black-sympathizer." I don't understand why this is hard to understand. If niggery-lipped would be offensive, then chinky-eyed would be, as well. This is a side issue, but if we can't grasp this, then what's the point?

Maverick... did you say that Miilkbone was signed to Death Row?!?!?!?! I wondered whatever happened to him. And I'm from Jersey & didn't even know. And Chino XL is African-American & Puerto Rican.
quote:
Ghettopoly is a game that the NAACP has identified as insensative to minorities. Hasbro has issued the owner of Ghettopoly a cease and decist order because they belive they have prioritory rights. Urban Outfitters, the single national retailer of the game pulled the games off of their shelves and have decided it would not be in their best interest to reorder them. Yahoo, and ebay both have disallowed the game from being sold on their respective sites.

Presently you are sponsoring 'board games' at About.com, after careful examination it has been determined that the forum moderator for "Board Games" discussions is promoting [Ghettopoly]. Of all of the threads in his forum, most discussions average 2 posts. However, for Ghettopoly, he has posted four of his own messages to one thread, he has deleted one [and only] very serious objection to the game, he has opened a poll about the game that has a supposid participation of over 700 votes. The major problem with the poll is, the whole forum doesn't get that much participation all together. Clearly, he should have know the poll was being stuffed. In order to vote you must be registered, so it just doesn't make sense that that many 'new' people would sign up just to vote but only half of 1% choose to comment about it, it just doesn't make sense. Lastly, the moderator has also closed a[nother] discussion that he apparently felt didn't go in the direction of where he wanted it to go. I invite you to visit the site and view the evidence for yourself and come to your own conclusions. I've done my homework, the game boards forum only has about 4 regular members, and an additional 3 occasional members. The overwhelming majority of the threads are orginated by the moderator most of which only has 2 replys. Frankly, I can't image paying to sponsor such a low interest area but that is your business.

I am writing [to] you because I see your sponsorhip of the game board forum at About.com as sponsorship of what they are promoting, most specifically racism in the form of the promotion of Ghettopoly by the forum's moderator. Therefore I am requesting that you reconsider your sponsorship, perhaps until such time that the forum is moderated in a reasonable fashion.


This letter will be forwared to the NAACP, and posted on no less than 5 African American Discussion Boards in two weeks if your sponsorship on the Game Board forum at About.com is unchanged.




The above letter was sent to the two sponsors of the 'board game' forum on About.com one hour ago. (now I got two weeks to find 4 other AA boards, Big Grin)

>

... its time for Prosperity


> > >



An African American Board Game Of Wealth & Success.

quote:
And Chino XL is African-American & Puerto Rican.

Thank you.

I was under the impression that he was Puerto Rican and perhaps Asian (mixed)...

VOX,
I would exactly want to know what the point is here. Perhaps you can tell me?

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