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I was looking at the board game created by one of the new members, Our Empowerment, and was impressed by its well thought out concept and presentation. It looks like something you would want to play with your family and friends.

On the other hand... I received an email from a friend this week about another board game, created by a young Chinese entreprenor and was shocked and disgusted.

www.ghettopoly.com

(I can't seem to get the hang of posting a link here! Frown)
Original Post
quote:
Originally posted by isistah:
I was looking at the board game created by one of the new members, Our Empowerment, and was impressed by its well thought out concept and presentation. It looks like something you would want to play with your family and friends.

On the other hand... I received an email from a friend this week about another board game, created by a young Chinese entreprenor and was shocked and disgusted.

http://www.ghettopoly.com

(I can't seem to get the hang of posting a link here! Frown)


First of all, allow me to thank you again for the love that you express in your welcome to me in the Nubie area.

I too got an email today speaking about gettopoly, except my attention was more drawn to the fact that a national retailer (Urban Outfitters) would stock the game.

What's interesting to note is that for the most part, the overwelming majority of Blacks see no humor in it at all.

In fact, on a White radio station discussion board apparently one of the listeners who was also a disscussion board member, won a gettopoly game, she was appeared happy to win but not so happy with her prize.

One of the other posters, when asked if he would buy the game, retorted "... buy it, hell no I'm a steal one!" hahahaha

NPR did a story on it, it didn't favor the publisher either, they had a very hard time trying to be 'balanced' in their reporting.

So apparently many Whites are embarassed by and at this too.

Although I don't know how his sales are doing, I can tell you by the look of the game, unless he has an uncle in the game printing business, he spent a pretty penny producing it.
Words from another site, I think is fitting for this thread.



quote:
From: Healer2K Oct-5 2:19 pm
To: KIND_uh_SHOOK unread (2 of 27)

55495.2 in reply to 55495.1

Thank you so much for posting about this outrage! Chicago's NBC5 news played part of an audio-recorded interview with the game's creator David T. Chang of Philadelphia. He said something to the effect that the game wasn't meant to offend anyone and that its harmless, "After all... its just a game." What it is, is CASH MONEY in this punk's pocket, making money by promoting stereotypes of different races of people. But he spits in the face of Black people worst of all, by having a racist caricature of a Black person on the cover of the game.

If the game is harmless, and is meant to make fun of stereotypes of numerous racial groups, why didn't David Chang A TAIWANESE IMMIGRANT put a racist caricature of a Chinese person eating rice on the cover? I wrote to him asking him that, but he never replied. His email address was on the Ghettopoly website just a couple of days ago, but I see he's removed it since then. Maybe because of my email? Not sure. Anyway... it was davidchang@ghettopoly.com

When you write your letters of complaint to the "customercare" address, CC: it to the "davidchang" address as well.


I am sure that David T. Chang can go to a Klan website and find gookopoly or chinkopoly. I am sure people of Asian descent would be offended by such a game, although no one would hear any protest of outrage about it; all the other minorities leave that to us and after social change has come about because of all the outrage and hell that black people in this country have raised, then the other minorities step in or step up to a place that has been made by others.
quote:
Originally posted by whatzgoingon:
has the NAACP become a strictly reactive organization instead of the proactive organization they once were?

Or is this just my "warped" outlook on African American affairs?




I don't think your outlook is warped at all. Looking at that game, I wondered just what exactly constitutes a hate crime.
quote:
Originally posted by isistah: ... Looking at that game, I wondered just what exactly constitutes a hate crime.


Tomorrow there is going to be a protest at Urban Outfitters' (I called them and they told me about the protest,) headquarters.

In my opinion, in keeping with your message as quoted above, the hate crime committed by Gettopoly and their accomplice should pay a dear price, most specifically,

For Urban Outfitters:

1) Appologize nationally (perhaps that will happen tomorrow)

2) Create a scholorship fund ($1 million) to promote excellence in urban (aka getto).

3) Fire every single person that was responsible for procuring the game, marketing the game, and selling the game. Someone along the line should have said something prior to it reaching the display.


As for gettopoly,

He should write a book on "The Evils of Racism" and give one to every person that he sold the game to.

Then sell the book and give all of the sales proceeds to his local "Urban League"!!

>

... its time for Prosperity


> > 

This came from a florida news paper in response to NAACP rally call to action.

quote:


Mark Morris, a spokesman for Hasbro Inc., the company that owns Monopoly, said it sent Chang a cease and desist letter in June. Chang has not responded to the company, Morris said.



Hasbro has the right to sue Chang for the damage it caused to its '...opoly' name,[apparently they have a monopoly on opoly in the game biz Smile].

Futhermore, if Chang is somewhat connected to Hasbro, even if they use the same printer, there appears to be some form of collusion, association, defacto permission, if you will.

That is why I have contacted Hasbro and asked them to file suit against Gettopoly forthwith.


All Hasbro, Inc. Products
Stacey Roberts
Hasbro, Inc
Sroberts@hasbro.com
401-727-5318




Since Chang thinks this is all satire, fun and games, let him play with 'Legal Touble' a version of Touble (the board game) that involves fools getting busted because they failed to think before they act.
What makes a crime be considered as a hate crime?
The FBI defines a hate crime (aka bias crime) to be "a criminal offense committed against a person, property or society which is motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender's bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientatio, or ethnicity/national origin." 1 Thus:
If a thug beats up a randomly selected victim, the assault would not be considered a hate crime.
If a person assaults a friend or acquaintance out of anger, the assault would not be a hate crime.
If a thug beats up a victim who is a stranger and was selected because of their race, it would be a hate crime.
If a person delivers a hate speech denigrating all Jews, or Afro-Americans, or gays, then this would not be considered a hate crime anywhere in the United States, because no criminal act has occurred. Hate speech is protected under the First Amendment.
However, existing federal legislation does not recognize as hate crimes those criminal acts which specifically target women, the disabled and homosexuals.
Official definitions of hate crimes:
Typical hate crime laws criminalize the use of force, or the threat of force, against a person because they are a member of a specific, protected group. 2 Four definitions of the term "hate crime" are:
Hate Crimes Statistics Act (1990): "crimes that manifest evidence of prejudice based on race, religion, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, including where appropriate the crimes of murder, non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, aggravated assault, simple assault, intimidation, arson, and destruction, damage or vandalism of property." ( Public Law 101-275)
Bureau of Justice Administration (BJA; 1997): "hate crimes--or bias-motivated crimes--are defined as offenses motivated by hatred against a victim based on his or her race, religion, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or national origin."
Anti-Defamation League (ADL): A hate crime is "any crime committed because of the victim's actual or perceived race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, gender [male or female] or sexual orientation." 3
National Education Association (NEA): "Hate crimes and violent acts are defined as offenses motivated by hatred against a victim based on his or her beliefs or mental or physical characteristics, including race, ethnicity, and sexual orientation." 4
The word "perceived" is important, because many vicious assaults are based in error on the incorrect belief that the victim is Jewish, gay, or a member of some other group that the perpetrator hates.
Traditional hate crime legislation protects persons because of "his race, color, religion or national origin," as in the case of the 1969 federal hate crimes law. (18 U.S.C. Section 245). Most state laws now include additional protected groups. Some laws are restrictive and only protect a member of a group if she/he is involved in specific activities. For example, the current (1969) federal law only applies if the crime happens when a person is attending a public school or is at work or participating in one of four other "federally protected activities."

Existing state and federal hate crime laws:
The ADL reports (as of 2001-SEP-21) that: Seven states have no hate crime law (Arkansas, Hawaii, Indiana, Kansas, New Mexico, South Carolina, and Wyoming) 12
Twenty states have laws that do not include sexual orientation as a protected group (AL, AR, CO, GA, ID, MD, MI, MS, MO, MT, NC, ND, OH, OK, PA, SD, TX, UT, VA, WV) 13
Twenty-four states and the District of Columbia have laws that do protect people on the basis of their sexual orientation. (AZ, CA, CT, DC, DE, FL, IL, IA, KY, LA, ME, MA, MN, NE, NV, NH, NJ, NY, OR, RI, TN, VT, WA, WI) 13

On 2000-JUL-4, Kentucky became the latest state to have hate crime bill signed into law which protects persons of all sexual orientations.
The 1969 federal hate crime law: Covers race, color, religion and national origin only.
Does not include sexual orientation, gender or disability status.
Only applies if the victim of a crime is engaged in one of six federally protected activities.
quote:
Originally posted by obvious_1:
This may be a case of any publicity is good publicity. Since the media got involved sales of ghettopoly has increase drastically. It is reported that if you want a copy there is now a long waiting list. Frown


The waiting list only implies that there were alot of sales, I pressed them (Urban Outfitters) a few different ways for sales figures, they refused to give them.

When they said they took them off the display floor and are not ordering any more, does that sound like they returned games to the publisher or like they sold each and every last one?

If you go to the gettopoly web site, they say sold out, but yet they don't tell you how many sold, clearly if you struck success you want to tell how much of a success it was (like Mc Donalds).

I've read a number of articles that were written on the game, initially Chang was very happy to get interviewed, later he became very defensive, now he grants no interviews. I believe the defensive attitude was because sales were cold and the heat was on his racist behind.

Let's be pratical if you put out a product, regardless of how much people hate it, if your primary motivation was money and if you are making money, would you stop selling it?

I believe Gettopoly is out of business (for many reasons,) and I believe Chang has a lot of unsold games on his hands, furthermore I believe he is in a whole load of trouble which might cost him far more than any income he may have gotten from his sales.

Could you image what his parents are going through in the neighborhood, at their family buiness.

As for the waiting list my guess is many on the list are people that just want to make sure that as soon as the game is stocked again the protest is back on, they don't intend on actually purchasing the game, the game cost $32. that's not playdough. Smile
quote:
Originally posted by sunnubian:
What makes a crime be considered as a hate crime?
The FBI defines a hate crime ....


Those are their type of hate crimes; and therefore their responsility to prosecute.

However, I believe the type of hate crime experienced in the mass marketing of Gettopoly by Urban Outfitters in America is a hate crime perpetrated on Blacks that must be prosecuted by Blacks.

African Americans need not have anyone validate what we know and feel is an affront against us.
If they organizations are so outraged, why do these groups and people mobilize now, and not protest entertainers like 50 Cent, Snoop Dogg, or whoever else.

Why do our "leaders" get defensive when an "outsider" reenforces these stereotypes, but sit by and let our own get away with it? Where do you think this immigrant got most of these ideas about what "ghetto" is? All you have to do is turn on the TV and watch the latest video.

We willingly export this representation of our community through the music and entertainment throughout the world. We get all hot and bothered when someone from the outside tries to cash in on these images, but we seem to turn a blind eye to when it is done within the community.

In fact, I feel that these actions by our "heroes" and "idols" do more damage to enforcing stereotypes within OUR community than influencing outsiders because our black youth (and the not so young) get the idea mostly from PEERS and not the white media that this is what being a black American is about. This is partly why it is so hard for our children with the talent to make it sometimes cannot due to enormous peer pressure imposed on these young impressionable minds that to reject these images means you are not down (i.e. you don't act the part, so you must want to be white, etc).

That's enough ranting for me today.
Kevin41, we usually agree on most issues, but your last post, "What the hell makes you think blacks are so simple that f-king entertainers are heros?", we part company.

While it does not apply to all Black folk, or maybe even most, but just about everything our youth wear is first seen on videos. The type of vehicles they aspire to drive, along with the accouterments, it straight from songs and videos. Heck, the postures and "culture of hardness" are from the entertainment industry. It's sad, but true.

If you ask any school age child to name his/her heroes, a large percentage will name athletes or other entertainers, not for their contributions to the community, but for their ability to entertain.

Again, while most of us are far more thinking and/or aware, a significant portion of our community identify our heroes based on what the media shows us.

BTW, and a big BTW, this is not exclusive to the Black community, White young are similarly influenced.
It is certain that Kobe Bryant Wishes He had spent his time:

A. At home with his wife.

B. Playing Monopoly, or Ghettopoly,

than to be faced with the very real threat of:

C. Long prison time.

D. Losing all rights to past, present, and/or future lucrative endorsements.

E. Losing every dime worked for as a result of civil lawsuit for damages.

just by acting in real life, like one of the characters depicted in Ghettopoly!

________________________________________________

"Detective: Bryant Forced Woman to Have Sex
By Elliott Teaford, Steve Henson and Alan Abrahamson

Times Staff Writers

October 10, 2003

EAGLE, Colo. -- EAGLE, Colo. "” A sheriff's detective testified Thursday that the 19-year-old resort worker accusing Kobe Bryant of rape told police that the Los Angeles Laker star placed his arms around her neck and forced her to have sex, despite her protests and tears.

Eagle County Sheriff's Detective Doug Winters, questioned during an extraordinary preliminary hearing many believed wouldn't occur, testified that the woman said Bryant repeatedly asked her not to tell anyone about the encounter and made her promise to do so before letting her leave his room at an Edwards, Colo., resort.

The hearing included riveting testimony from Winters and contentious questioning from Bryant attorney Pamela Mackey, lasting more than five hours before it was continued until next Wednesday. Judge Fredrick Gannett will ultimately determine whether Bryant will be charged with felony sexual assault.

According to statements the woman gave Winters, her encounter with Bryant began with some mutual flirting during a tour of the resort. Bryant then invited her to his room, where he asked to see a tattoo on her ankle and invited her to join him in a hot tub.

The woman declined his offer, telling Bryant her shift was about to end and she wished to go home. Bryant then hugged her, which led to consensual kissing, the detective testified.

After she turned away from him to leave the room, Bryant grabbed her around the neck from behind with his arms. He pulled down her underwear, pushed her against a chair and raped her from behind, the detective testified. She told Winters she broke into tears after twice telling Bryant to stop.

After the woman agreed to promise not to tell anyone what happened, Bryant insisted that she kiss his penis before allowing her to leave. The woman ran downstairs to the lobby, meeting a bellman who had seen her with Bryant during the tour of the hotel. It was the bellman who first heard the woman's story.

Bryant, who did not testify in the proceedings, has said the two had consensual sex, but has proclaimed: "I am innocent" of the charges.

Mackey, his attorney, aggressively challenged Winters' testimony and seemingly every tidbit of evidence, including three photographs presented by Deputy District Attorney Gregory Crittenden. One photograph showed a small bruise on the accuser's left jaw; the other two were of vaginal injuries the prosecution said were the result of the rape.

In her cross-examination, Mackey brought the proceeding to a halt when she suggested that the woman's injuries might also be "consistent with a person who has had sex with three different men in three days."

Judge Gannett immediately "” and angrily "” called for a recess, emptying the courtroom and telling attorneys from both sides to meet him in his chambers.

Mackey was scolded earlier by Gannett when she used the accuser's name six times during her cross-examination.

She told the judge she would write herself "a big note" not to use the name again. Countered Gannett: "Or I could get you a big muzzle."

Mackey continued to press the detective, particularly about the bruises on the woman's neck. Winters said he did not know when she suffered the bruising and did not initially see the injuries.

"She talks (about) how Mr. Kobe Bryant grabbed her neck and choked her," Mackey said to Winters. "You looked at her neck to see?"

After Winters said he had indeed examined the woman for injuries, Mackey asked if he could see the bruises.

"Not from the front, no," Winters said.

"Not a red mark?" Mackey asked.

"That's correct," he said.

"Not a scratch?" she asked.

"That's correct," he said.

Some legal experts had predicted that the defense would waive the public hearing and go directly to trial. They had speculated that such lurid testimony in open court would be damaging to Bryant's defense.

Bryant, who had been in Hawaii at Laker training camp, arrived at the Eagle County Justice Center in a white SUV, part of a three-vehicle convoy. He walked inside through a metal detector. He took off a necklace before walking through.

With him were his attorneys, Mackey and Hal Haddon. Bryant did not speak to people outside.

Cameras were not allowed in the courtroom.

The charges stem from an incident June 30 at a resort in Edwards, where Bryant's 19-year-old accuser was employed. The next day she told police he had assaulted her.

Bryant, 25, has been free on $25,000 bond. If convicted, he faces a sentence of four years to life.

The Lakers have stood by Bryant, who had arrived a day late to the team's Hawaii training camp because of an undisclosed illness. He practiced with teammates for several days, but did not play in the Lakers' first two exhibition games.

There was no word about when he would rejoin the team, although he vowed last week to play this season.

Bryant's lawyers could have waived the hearing, avoiding the airing of potentially damaging testimony. Gannett had denied an earlier defense request to force the accuser to testify.

There were some 300 reporters and camera crews stationed in Eagle, with TV satellite trucks parked in a lot "” at $555 a space "” near the court.

Heightened security was evident. Everyone involved in the case, including Bryant, his accuser and attorneys on both sides, has been threatened by e-mail, letter or telephone.

Armed guards were outside the Eagle County Justice Center, and only one entrance was open.

Henson and Abrahamson reported from Eagle, Colo.; Teaford from Los Angeles."

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton
We knew the name of Mike Tyson's accuser, where she was from and more. What's so special about this 19 year old chick accusing Kobe? Her Royal Highness' White-ness???? She had NO BIZNESS steppin' into Kobe's room after hours or otherwise. Personally, I'm O.J.'d out. Marcia Clark has stepped into the Kobe picture. Gawd!!!! No mo' fo' me. I wish Kobe the best! May he have learned his lesson; and may he have taught his fellow brethren.
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
what the hell makes you think blacks are so simple that f-king entertainers are heroes?


Kev,

I have to ask. Do you ever talk to black people who don't live in Suburban America? Who lived below the poverty line? Who grew up without a father, surrounded by drugs, violence and a sense of hopelessness? Forgive for saying so, but you seem to be very naive about what really goes in "in the hood."

I understand the need to want to highlight the positives that black America has achieved; but you cannot ignore the reality that most of us face in this country. The black middle class is growing, yes, and that is fine, but we cannot ignore the reality that for a majority of black people in this country, things are getting worse.

The way you describe your childhood is NOT how the typical black child grows up in this country, and reading your description makes me understand a little in understanding why you seem so offended by posts about the difficulties that black America faces from within.

You can stay in suburbia and imagine what you need to justify your perspectives and fit everything into your little boxes, or you can go out and really see now many black people who didn't grow up like you may see life.

Of course, you are a grown man and you don't have to do anything at all, because, after all, it's only an internet message board.
No bro,

You are buying into stereotypes of some as a broad generalization of all.....i go everywhere black people are hoods, projects, suburbs and even where rich blacks are....i am a black without a certain demographic....it allows me to have a broad perspective....i am sure I have been as many places as you and most others in here.....yeah a lot of people did not have my childhood...but in the hood it is not that blanket as picture of despair that you paint....I knwo plenty of people in the hoods that hold families together, demand that their kids produce and have kids who acheive just like anywhere else....but they, like myself are masked by the media's constant reinforcement of a "black life"......so no bro....I do what it takes to get people going and not just bask in black inadequacy...i am fully aware of the black condition....but more than most i understand and teach social science to get black people to see the link between knowledge and changing social conditions....i also know that the income gap between educated and non-educated blacks is bigger than that same gap for any other group, therefore making education more valuble for blacks than it is anyone else. yes bro.....my thing is to get them out of LA and into colleges(black) so they can get a different percpetion of themselves than what people keep trying to establish as their norm......so no bro......do not not try to base anything on my nievete...because i'm the kinda brother that goes everywhere and carry what is needed...whther it is my laptop to teach or my strap to regulate...and that does not just pertain to black people....because unlike most blacks....i have seen whites demonstrate the very same pathological behaviors blacks do....they are not as highlighted and celebrated by their own like we are......
Well said whatzgoingon,

"I have to ask. Do you ever talk to black people who don't live in Suburban America? Who lived below the poverty line? Who grew up without a father, surrounded by drugs, violence and a sense of hopelessness? Forgive for saying so, but you seem to be very naive about what really goes in "in the hood."

I understand the need to want to highlight the positives that black America has achieved; but you cannot ignore the reality that most of us face in this country. The black middle class is growing, yes, and that is fine, but we cannot ignore the reality that for a majority of black people in this country, things are getting worse.

The way you describe your childhood is NOT how the typical black child grows up in this country, and reading your description makes me understand a little in understanding why you seem so offended by posts about the difficulties that black America faces from within.

You can stay in suburbia and imagine what you need to justify your perspectives and fit everything into your little boxes, or you can go out and really see now many black people who didn't grow up like you may see life.

Of course, you are a grown man and you don't have to do anything at all, because, after all, it's only an internet message board." by Whatzgoingon

The Real Tragedy is Not So Much the Fact that A Korean Merchant is Making a Financial Killing Off of Ghettopoly, but Rather it is a fact of Life That Much of the Inflammatory Material Truly Goes On!

Kevin41 is just too pompous to have so much as a clue to the essense of your message. You may as well say, your message just went over his head. I wouldn't waste my time if I were you.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 10, 2003 at 08:17 PM.]
You just refuse to even try to understand what I am saying, don't you?

Paint me with whatver brush you need to to so it can make sense in your world because it is clear to me not that if it doesn't fit into Kevin41's viewpoint, it is clearly wrong and whoever said it the white man's pawn.

You sit in surburbia and sweeze your eyes tightly together and cover your ears and humm a happy tune while some of us are knee deep in the core of our community, the places you seem to not want to talk about, trying to instill some disipline and respect and pride and self esteem along with education so these kids can get past these obsticles you refuse to acknowledge are there.

So then a bigger percentage of our future 9children) can really be prepared for any and all the realities of life will bring instead of the few black kids who were blessed to be raised with middle class values.

Who's really the pawn in this game of life?
Lord, Dear God, may African people only be ALLOWED to GROW UP and LIVE THEIR LIVES from wherever they STARTED LIFE.

To hell with Gettopoly, Mr. Chang and any other Changs along the line. DON'T BUY THE CRAP!!!

Hi Kev; Hi Watz! Two brothers who were just exchanging views is how I saw this. That's all anyone does; hopefully, without hostile reprimand thumbsup.
Lofton,

Just because you can keep the V+ and Gnd wires apart please do not feel like you are qualfied to say what I cannot comprehend. You going waaay the hell above your head homie......but you fellas need to observe the neighborhood fom a micro-perspective and learn of the quietly kept best secrets. There are more of us doing beneficial things than one would like to know about....especially if it would help change the social perception, give the kids a blueprint to follow and not let racists and self-hating blacks bask in the misfortunes of others the way they do now. All that bullshit Lofton posts is masked as concern but it is nothing but celebrating the misfortunes and failures of others....so he can feel better about his own life.....thats why he bitches and moans but never has any suggestions to correct the very things he whines about.....what he should do is start taking some actions of his own to improve the situations he complains about......so while others are telling me what the f-k I do not realize, maybe they could travel along and start donating their time, money and knowledge to offset the things they seem to see as "just how it is"......I have...and why do black people think there is some kinda f-king mystery to the "hood"...puleeze, even if I had NEVER been around impoverished people (which I have......seen crackhouses, shoot-outs, ducked bullets from drive-bys, prosititues, drug dealers, drug labs and the whole nine in BOTH white and black impoverished areas)all I have to do is watch BET and look at that urban bullshit as it is normalized in the minds of kids through videos and the whole nine....but i'm a highly educated brother that has traveled all over and do not seperate myself from any strata of blacks.....thats how we grew up in Texas...raised that way.....always help the poor and work with them..from education, food, clothes and any other type of assistance you can name. I have friends who have their own medical clinics and I have friends that have not looked for a job in ages and some that have done time......I treat them all the same because unlike fake azz shallow azz blacks, I treat people based on how they treat me, not who they are or what they do......and believe me, even if that was the case...a black person does not have to identify with some stupid azz ghetto element to be an "authentic" black person...you can just research social science and understand the social implications of poverty and lack of education.....all those things you people seem to think are a mystery are nothing but pathological behaviors associated with a lack of educational and economic opportunities which leads to poverty for ANYONE.....so instead of me not going anywhere, It seems like many of us have never left our neighborhoods or urban enclaves to see what happens to poor people outside of them.......do not make class distinctions race distinctions....because they are not....only the systematic factors that relegated black people to theirs are race issues....but poverty and violence is not exclusive to blacks...and it is no great mystery that the greater society is masked from.....so quit acting like it is....please
whatzgoinon,

man you just don't get it do you......Don't limit my perspectives with what YOU think my experiences have been. I know how the gap from poverty is bridged into the middle and upper classes. I went to a black college with people who were damn near illiterate and kids of sharecroppers who did not even have shoes sometimes....these same people are now upper middle-class with unlimited opportunities for their children. The same with that urban crew....came up out of the hood from poverty and doing very very well at the present time based on the intake of knowledge that is proprietary in nature. Just because a person grows up middle class does not mean he is shielded from the rest of the world...you see in my eyes...there is getting an education....and being an educated person.....a person with an education has met degree requirements...an educated person is just as enlightened outside of the classroom and is viable anywhere....whether they are competing in the classroom...or carrying an AK in a really dangerous area to peel the cap of anyone trying to endanger them....their cognitive abilities remain the same and they think in terms of survival.....man I have been places in a couple of cities here in Cally and Fla and Tx that had nicknames such as "little vietnam"...go figure...but that does not make me any blacker than if I stayed in a library and read about those same places.......matter of fact, after teaching graduate public policy courses.....my research using entities like the National Urban Policy Institute has given me more perspective than even if I took my .45 out to kill gangbangers for terrorzing the hood my damn self. That social research (much performed by blacks)articluates the particulars of an impoverished existence and the social ramifications of is in more detail than if you rode around in the hood every day for 20 years. It is that level of observation and analysis that provides input for change.....not just identifying as a "hood rat" and thinking its a badge of honor because it made you tough...hell a 6-year old can fire a gun so there is nothing tough about it........so in additon to that research, read the JBHE.com site and look at all the material that describes the black social/economic conditon in america, the state of the efforts to combat it and what social and economic factors contribute to it or defeat it.....and if you read those two things along....you'll see between that type of info and my own social and educational experiences, i probably have a better take on things than most people who wake up in those conditions everyday....I know what caused those conditions, what they consist of and what rectifies them......and what people fail to realize.....you do not have to step out in front of a car to see if it'll hurt you....you know it will based on observation and other's experiences will tell you to what extent you would get hurt if you did step out in front of it......the same with any other phenomenon.....if one is a student of life..and I really find it amusing that I was able to put Dr. in front of my name as young lad..and not find it difficult at all to do so, but my people always think that the simple shit was a strain for me to learn.....simply amazing........blk folks got to give each other more credit and quit thinking we're are all locked in some ghetto or beourgeise ideological box.......that is not the case....some of us fit in and understand no matter where you place us.......
How is it you don't want anyone to put you in a box, yet that is the first thing you seem to do once some one disagrees with your perspective? Can't have it both ways.

I only keep commenting on your background because it is the only way I can justify your posts, because your perspective is either looking at it from a distance or just ignoring what you see. My point in calling you out about looking at things from suburbia is not that because you were born in a middle class family that you can't be down. It is that you seem to look at issues from middle class standards with middle class values and expect that all black people and all black families share those values. It is hard for you to understand that generations of people living as subhuman in mainstream (white) society could actually internalize mainstream society's generalizations of them. Your pride is getting in the way of your judgment.

If you don't believe that these kids look up to hip hop artists more than the do a doctor or a teacher, or you don't believe that the psychological aspects of being black in America are keeping us down much more then "the man," then what else can I call it but naiveté? If you believe that I am dwelling on the negative, then I am guilty. Until the majority of black people in this country are above the poverty line, until the number of black males in prison is much smaller than the number in college; until the number of healthy nuclear families far outweighs the number of single parent households; until things are much brighter for our community than they are now, I will continue to dwell on the negative. Just because a few of us have made it does not help me feel we have turned the corner.

All the books and all the research in the world cannot prepare you for what black children face in our communities today.

Blaming Mr. Charlie isn't enough anymore. Comparing our transgressions to other groups isn't going to cut it either. As valid as both perspectives are, the more we dwell on the outside manipulation of our image or our low positions in society and ignore the factors within ourselves that help keep us down, the longer we will stay where we are AS A WHOLE.

Until people are ready for some radical changes to occur, things will continue to be status quo with the black community. Some of our "leaders" and the older people out there who saw how bad it used to be are satisfied in how slowly things are moving. They believe the formula of the 60's is still viable. It's not, and the younger generation is suffering because our leaders are scared to move forward less then lose their place a the end of the line.

It's time to change the strategy folks. It ain't working no more.
Hello WhatzGoingOn,

"Until people are ready for some radical changes to occur, things will continue to be status quo with the black community. Some of our "leaders" and the older people out there who saw how bad it used to be are satisfied in how slowly things are moving. They believe the formula of the 60's is still viable. It's not, and the younger generation is suffering because our leaders are scared to move forward less then lose their place a the end of the line.

It's time to change the strategy folks. It ain't working no more." by whatzgoingon

With the exception of me, and a limited few, you are speaking the truth, and these very serious issues should be of importance to anyone who's interest is to improve the quality of life in the Black community.

Kevin41, is definitely pompous, and your message continues to elude him. This is strongly evidenced by his habit of comparing the shortcomings of a Caucasian community, with that of any Black community, to which in any event the Caucasian community, is not facing extinction, like that of Black America.

If I were you, I would not waste any more effort, or valuable time with the likes of Kevin41.

You are one of a few of a few people on this message board who has anything worthwhile to say, which truly relates to issues that should be of concern to Black people.

One of several examples to prove that the incompetence of Black people more so than any wrongdoing on the part of Caucasian America, make an already bleak picture even bleaker!

"Board Affirms Decision; King/Drew Training of Surgeons to Halt June 30

By Charles Ornstein and Tracy Weber

Times Staff Writers

October 11, 2003

An accreditation council on Friday upheld its decision to strip Martin Luther King Jr./Drew Medical Center of its ability to train aspiring surgeons, throwing into doubt the hospital's ability to function as a trauma center.

The Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education ordered the program to close as of June 30, quashing the hopes of doctors and administrators who had pleaded for a reconsideration.

Outside experts said the decision "” which is final "” will have a devastating effect on the hospital in Willowbrook, just south of Watts, and the largely poor, minority population it serves.

It is "almost inconceivable" for a busy urban hospital to lose its ability to train surgeons, said Dr. Paul Lin, surgery program director at George Washington University Hospital in Washington, D.C.

"It's a major blow, without question," said Dr. Jeffrey H. Peters, surgery program director at Los Angeles County-USC Medical Center. "It would be a rare trauma program that functions without a residency."

King/Drew's trauma center treats nearly one-quarter of the county's gunshot and stabbing victims and 11% of those involved in car accidents, assaults and other life-threatening injuries.

Surgery residents reacted with anger, saying that about 30 of them will be forced to find other hospitals where they can complete their five-year curriculum.

"We are shocked and we are in utter disbelief," said resident Dr. Almaas Shaikh, making a statement on behalf of her colleagues. "It is an abysmal display of the failure of leadership and lack of accountability that have allowed these circumstances to occur."

On Friday, the union representing the residents condemned officials at the hospital and Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, which runs the 18 training programs at King/Drew. The union accused them of underestimating the threat to the program's future, leaving residents to believe their positions were secure.

"Either they didn't get how serious it was or they were deliberately distorting how serious it was," said Josh Rutkoff, area director for the Joint Council of Interns and Residents. "I'm not sure which is worse."

Surgery isn't the only doomed training program at King/Drew. Last fall, the accreditation board revoked approval for the hospital's radiology residency program, a decision that also will take effect June 30. That means the county also has to find placements at other facilities for 14 radiology residents.

The accreditation council first indicated it would summarily withdraw approval for the surgery program in August. The immediate reason cited was that the program was training more residents than it was allowed.

But the surgery residency already was on probation because the council previously had found that trainees were not provided enough surgical experience, faculty research was inadequate and the curriculum did not follow recommended guidelines.

The hospital asked the council to reconsider the revocation, but on Friday the council upheld the withdrawal.

Dr. Thomas Garthwaite, director of the Los Angeles County Department of Health Services, which owns the hospital, agreed that "there are multiple failures at various levels." He called the accrediting council's decision "disappointing, but not unexpected."

King/Drew cannot apply to start a new surgery residency at the hospital because its overall graduate medical education program received an unfavorable rating by the accrediting council in 2000. The hospital had another review last month and is awaiting the results.

If it receives a favorable rating, it plans to seek approval for a new surgery program, said Walter Strong, vice president of university affairs at the Drew school. That process could take months.

Without the surgery residents, experts said, the county probably will have to spend much more money to hire more skilled surgeons from outside to take over at the 233-bed hospital.

Residents, typically recent medical school graduates being trained in specialties, earn less than $45,000 a year because they are still being trained, whereas more senior doctors can cost the county $100,000 to $150,000 each.

Even with a substantial budget increase, it will be difficult for King/Drew to recruit enough surgeons willing to cover trauma shifts 24 hours a day, seven days a week, said Dr. Bruce Stabile, chairman of the surgery department at Harbor-UCLA Medical Center.

He said it's a "huge concern" that the loss of King/Drew's surgery program will end up overwhelming surrounding hospitals, including Harbor-UCLA.

Garthwaite said he thought the hospital's existing surgeons could handle many of the operations now performed by residents.

"What we're paying the surgeon to stand and look over and supervise the resident, it won't cost any more for them to perform the surgery," he said.

But Garthwaite acknowledged that doctors might balk at the added tasks.

County Supervisor Yvonne Brathwaite Burke, whose district includes the hospital, said she had hoped the surgery program would get another chance.

Officials moved quickly to replace the facility's leadership and correct problems identified by the accrediting council, she said. "I'm very disappointed," she added."

Discussing the criminal wrongdoing of a Rush Limbaugh, Hugh Grant, Marv Albert, Michael Milken, Tommy Lee, etc., will not improve the quality of life, relating to Black America. Heck, these individuals are far removed from the community of Black America.

"None of that matters because white privilege is a fact of life in America, and the white man's rights must always be respected--even when he's wrong."

It is a given that white privilege exists. It is a given that Korean privilege exists. It is a given that Hispanic privilege exists. Plain and simple, every ethnic group seeks to protect their own first and foremost, the exception being Black people. White privilege is not causing the death of countless Black people, because Black People are the primary perpetrators! Substandard educational facilities within our community is not the fault of Caucasians, but rather those in positions of leadership who choose not to serve our community. Martin Luther King, A.K.A. "Butcher King County Hospital", A.K.A. "Killer King Hospital", is not being shut down because of Caucasian privilege, but rather blatant improprieties perpetrated by Black people in positions of authority. Because of the incompetence of our own doctors, administrators, etc., Caucasian doctors will be called in to raise the quality of performance at "Killer King". Can't say that Black people have not been given the opportunity to run the hospital, because they have.

In this instance Caucasians are not being summoned to the rescue because of privilege, but rather because of the blatant incompetence, and/or very substandard performance of Black doctors, administrators, nurses, etc. Mind you, these individuals failed not only themselves, but the entire community.

"It's time to change the strategy folks. It ain't working no more." by WhatzGoingOn

Very true, because should anyone show competency in what they do, the quality of work, and/or performance will speak for itself. Heck, there would be no point in summoning any outsider, to make the necessary reforms had Black America' own doctors, administrators, nurses, etc., done their jobs, as opposed to shirking their responsibilities.

If you are highly competent, you can keep Caucasians, and/or anyone else in check, as opposed to being placed in check, due to your own incompetence. There in no substitute for competency. Should Black people expect earned privileges on the level of Caucasians, Hispanics, Jews, Koreans, etc., then Black people must raise their level of competency.

This being said it would not matter as to what anyone thinks of you, because in the final analysis, being the best that you can be, is what counts,....not drama, not making excuses as to why not, not privilege, and definitely not playing the blame Caucasian America, and/or others, when Black people must also be held accountable!

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 11, 2003 at 09:05 PM.]
Nobody is blaming schit on "Mr. Charlie" as you put it.....if you read my posts over the history of the time I have been here.....my posts consist of acknoweldging both the racist landscape of america and what needs to be done in terms of normal socialization of black kids and education to change social conditions. YOU people like to say that someone spends their time blaming the white man when the white man has never stop me from accomplishing more than the majority of white people themselves have......so that in itself would be contradictory in nature. But just because I succeeded DESPITE racism, i'm not going to be like the average successful negro and act like it no longer exists. What you people fail to look at is specific things such as attacks on affrimative action and the results of educational disenfranchisement and also to what extent the pathological behaviors black people exhibit are residual effects of the systematic poverty THIS country relegated blacks to for several generations via jim crow. People are quick to make f-ked up behaviors exclusive to black people......while never acknowledging the exclusive f-ked up social experiences we have had here.........I think the formulas of the 60's do still work...I really think that the race as a whole is not as socially conscious as it was in the 60's therefore not affecting as many people in a positive manner. I think the attainment of a few material goods which has always been the basis of self-adequacy in america made many lose focus and start to compromise their values. At that point the social breakdown began. I do not think it was not because the programs were not effective....hell, between 1985-2000 the number of black college graduates DOUBLED......that has to be a basis for social progress and economic viability.it just needs to be more widespread.....so when people are ready to socialize their children normally, turn off that BET bling-bling bullshit, force academic acheivement on their kids...the rest will take place....look at the social makeup of the educated of ANY race....they are less likely to be poor, less likely to be unwed parents, less likely to not have health care, etc....until we change our priorities and quit compromising long-term viability for instant gratification...we will have the problems we do today........
and by the way whatzgoingon....I do not care if anyone disagrees with me...I just have a problem when people do not tell me why they disagree....if they can break it down and refute it from a factual premise, then i'll change into their way of thinking...a learning person has to be humble or they will never become learned because they think they know every gotdamn thing...I have a problem with that "just because" dialogue that wasn't even allowed as a kid....so when conservatives and all come in wih bullschit you ask them to substantiate on a policy outcome basis and they cannot, what in the hell would make me look at them with any validity anyway? So whenever you ask them about their ant-affirmative action stance and Prop 54 favor and explain to them what the detremental results would be, THEY are the ones that skirt the f-king answer and start telling you what kind of person you are and how all black people do not have to think alike....which is true...but I do not accomodate stupidity on the part of others...plain and simple.....so no one has to agree with schit I say, but please do not insult my intelligence...thats all I ask.......
Yeah Lofton,

I figured you would excuse whites for anything and everything they do....hell you overlooked the PW types talking about hanging blacks with nooses and what the rope should be made of........so why don't you quit bitching and moaning and start offering suggestions to correct all you find so wrong with black people....are you capable? can your thinking extend beyond castigation of a race? try it.....but i doubt like hell if you can.......
I have to say, I am not offended by this game. I would not give some piece of cardboard that much power. If you look at the game, he has alot of things that are in the ghetto on the board. There is always a liquor store in the ghetto. There are drug dealers in the hood. I think the problem some people have is that the game isn't falsifying facts. He didn't make these things up, he definitely took alot of license with somethings, so what? Is that what defines a race? It is just a game.
That game doesn't bring new racism to light, it reminds us of current racism and sexism. It talks about pipms and hoes, we call our women hoes and being a pimp is a great thing these days (look at 50 cent & Snoop). All of a sudden, he's the enemy? We need to sneak up on a mirror, then we'll see the enemy.
End of the day, that taiwanese businessman is out for cash. When people don't buy the game, he'll stop. He's no racist, he said he's going to do other games like Redneckopoly. We need to realize a few things. He is reminding us pf issues that already exist. We take care of our problems and that game won't exist.

whip
Hello whipwrex,

"We need to sneak up on a mirror, then we'll see the enemy.

End of the day, that taiwanese businessman is out for cash. When people don't buy the game, he'll stop. He's no racist, he said he's going to do other games like Redneckopoly. We need to realize a few things. He is reminding us pf issues that already exist. We take care of our problems and that game won't exist." by whipwrex

I could not agree more. If this perverted and/or self destructive activity did not exist, this Taiwanese businessman would have little basis for the game. There is a very slim chance that this game would even exist, because such a perception would be next to impossible to create. Couldn't have conceived or perceived such an idea based upon life in Taiwan, because this lifestyle is very removed from the way of life of the Taiwanese.

Just like the sale of illicit narcotics or for that matter any other business endeavor, without a steady supply of customers the business could not remain solvent.

Hopefully, something positive comes from this discussion, in the interest of cleaning up our own backyard, so that games such as Ghettopoly would amount to a fictious set of circumstances, as opposed to the reality of life in the inner-city!

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton
Nobody is disputing that none of these things exist in the so called "ghetto," everyone is merely offended that once again someone is shining a spotlight only on the so called "ghetto" as if none of these things exist anywhere else. There is nothing going on in the so called ghetto that is not happening anywhere else, but as long as the racist propaganda machines only hold a micro-scope over only the so called ghetto, then it gives the misconception that the negatives only happens in the so called ghetto which has become in recent decades predominately Black in a lot of areas and this then fuels the stereo-types that we all have to deal with in one way or another. We know that a board game is not going to be the undoing of the entire African American race, I guess it just never ceases to be disheartening that another minority who's people were not too long ago suffering the same racism and abuse in this country would have a desire to pour salt into our wounds.
If this perverted and/or self destructive activity did not exist, this Taiwanese businessman would have little basis for the game. There is a very slim chance that this game would even exist, because such a perception would be next to impossible to create. Couldn't have conceived or perceived such an idea based upon life in Taiwan, because this lifestyle is very removed from the way of life of the Taiwanese.

Well why does he not have a sell little girls into sexual slavery board game for his native country. These things exist his his community and in every community and he made a concious decision not to make a board game depicting all the negatives of his community.
Well sunnubian,

"Nobody is disputing that none of these things exist in the so called "ghetto," everyone is merely offended that once again someone is shining a spotlight only on the so called "ghetto" as if none of these things exist anywhere else." by sunnubian

The Drug Addiction to Pain Killers by a Rush Limbaugh is not leading to the extinction of the Caucasian community! Furthermore Rush Limbaugh is not hanging on to life as a result of his addiction to pain killers, like the many "walking dead to the curb" Black people who are addicted to Crack, Heroin, PCP, and/or other illicit drugs! Furthermore, it is certain that the neighbors of Rush Limbaugh do not fear for their safety, fear for the safety of any family member, and/or perceive any loss of their personal possessions due to theft, burglary, armed robbery, prostitution, etc., to finance a drug addiction, like that of the typical drug addict of the inner-city

This is not to say that criminal activity does not occur in other communities. You miss the point. The only community to which such perverted and/or self destructive activity is very pronounced, pronounced to the point of the community facing extinction as a result of all of the above is in fact the Black community.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 11, 2003 at 09:07 PM.]
sunnubian,

Don't waste your time....they specialize in celebrating black failure and minimizing white failure......you know when they put those pictures of a white Jesus in our churches, many of us was convinced that the white man can do no wrong and that we are all evil...you know...like they taught us when we were slaves...that God is in the white man's image....thatis why these negroes live in deference to him....wow...the remnants of slavery live on.......
"Like I said earlier" by Kevin41

Your views, thoughts, etc., are meaningless, and inappropriate when one considers the reality of it. It is certain that the many victims, and/or survivors of this foolishness do not share your viewpoint, as it relates to placing the blame of many senseless deaths on Caucasians, when by and large the perpetrators are in fact other Black people!

The Reality of Ghettopoly in the Black Community, to Which Rush Limbaugh, nor Caucasian America are responsible for this foolishness. To say or even infer that Caucasians are senselessly blowing each others brains out, like that of the Black community is far from the reality of it.

It is certain that the victims and their surviving family members are not blaming Caucasians for this very deadly activity, perpetrated by Black people.


"Besieged by Violence, Family Grieves Again

By Cara Mia DiMassa

Times Staff Writer

October 12, 2003

For the family gathered at the small one-story home in South Los Angeles, the scene was far too familiar.

Outside, children rode bikes and played on their great-grandparents' porch, blissfully unaware. Inside, adults sat stony-faced, trying to comprehend how yet another member of their family could be snatched away by gun violence.

Letisha Stephens, 25, was driving on the Artesia Freeway in North Long Beach when passengers in another car opened fire on her black SUV and at least three other vehicles Saturday before 12:30 a.m. Police said one of the vehicles was the shooters' intended target.

Stephens, the mother of two girls, ages 3 and 6, was the only person wounded, according to police. Family members said doctors at Long Beach Memorial Medical Center told them that Stephens, shot in the head, was brain-dead. No arrests had been made as of late Saturday.

Already, Stephens' name was being added to a litany of relatives gunned down on Los Angeles-area streets. Her uncles, Tyrone and Jesse. Cousins Terrance, Corey, Ja'mee.

In all, said Charlotte Austin-Jordan, Stephens' aunt, 13 members of the extended family have been killed since the late 1970s.

At the family home Saturday, Shalon Allen, 27, Stephens' cousin, closed her eyes and shook her head, a napkin wet with tears wadded in her right hand.

"Not again," she cried. "Not again, not again."

Other family members described, from experience, the onslaught of emotions that will, inevitably, come next. They spoke of how to keep faith when there is no hope. They described the awkwardness the mother of a dead child often feels when she is asked how many children she has. They told Stephens' mother, Cheryl Allen, 42, about the pit of loneliness that will undoubtedly envelop her on holidays and birthdays.

Allen listened stoically to their advice. "I'm preparing myself for what's going to happen," she said. "I'm dealing with it. Day by day. That's all I can do."

But a few minutes later her demeanor changed. Tears welled up. Her head turned away. "It's a little too much for me now," she said softly.

Members of the family said they had scant information about the circumstances of the shooting. Stephens had been returning home with a female friend from a roller rink in Cerritos. That woman jumped into Stephens' lap and guided the car to a stop near the Atlantic Avenue offramp after the shooting, they said. And they said the woman had spent most of Saturday being questioned by police.

Cheryl Allen said that a man "” a family friend who had accompanied Stephens to the rink and lived near her in Los Angeles "” had also been shot at by the assailants. His pickup was pierced by 13 bullets, she said.

Long Beach police said they believe that the shooters were in a white SUV with chrome rims. Officer Jana Blair said they think other people witnessed the shootings and asked anyone with information to call homicide investigators at (562) 570-7244.

Austin-Jordan thinks her niece was an innocent victim of a random, horrible act.

"I just don't get it," she said. "I don't know what frame of mind, what mentality you can have to pull upside somebody and just open fire. Her children could have been in the car."

Austin-Jordan became an activist after her own daughter, Ja'mee, was killed in 1988. She lost a second child in 1996, and since then has spent much of her time helping young offenders and counseling families who have lost children to violence.

But Saturday she wondered whether those efforts were in vain. "Am I doing enough?" she asked. "Is it worth it? When is it going to stop? When are people going to realize what is going on in our community?"

Definitions straight from most any dictionary-

Genocidal: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group.


Racism:

1. a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

2. racial prejudice or discrimination.

As reality would have it, genocidal surely fits. Since the victims, and the perpetrators are in fact Black people, the only racial prejudice that exists in this instance, is hatred or the practice of destructive racism by the community of Black America, itself!

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 12, 2003 at 10:09 AM.]
It's obvious that PEOPLE don't give a crap what's happening in YOUR COMMUNITY. It is TIME for AFRICAN MEN in LOS ANGELES to get together and let these retarded, shooting, muthas know that they're not GOING TO TAKE IT ANY DAMN MORE. Since you're complaining all the damn time, why don't you do it????? Get some of the Smartest Muthas you know and get to steppin'!!!!! Organize all of them and take charge.

If this was happening in the European Communities, you know they'd have SOMETHIN'-SOMETHIN' for every AFRICAN in LOS ANGELES. Those jokas know how to B-A-R-B-E-Q-U-E!!! You all had better learn some cooking lessons from the pros. Tell those African, killin' males, the person they're shooting might be a relative. They know how we've all been separated throughout the Diaspora throughout the WORLD. They SHOULD NEVER RAISE THEIR HANDS TO FIRE ANYTHING AT ANYONE EVER. Either shake hands in love or keep on steppin'. Mr. Lofton, O-R-G-A-N-I-Z-E or please shut up!!! We all have enough problems of our own dealing with retardation of all kinds; African and European and all the damn colors in-between. By the way, there's only ONE RACE; HUMAN. It's COLORS folks have trouble dealing with. I say to that TOUGH CHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! soapbox
"It's obvious that PEOPLE don't give a crap what's happening in YOUR COMMUNITY. It is TIME for AFRICAN MEN in LOS ANGELES to get together and let these retarded, shooting, muthas know that they're not GOING TO TAKE IT ANY DAMN MORE. Since you're complaining all the damn time, why don't you do it????? Get some of the Smartest Muthas you know and get to steppin'!!!!! Organize all of them and take charge.

If this was happening in the European Communities, you know they'd have SOMETHIN'-SOMETHIN' for every AFRICAN in LOS ANGELES. Those jokas know how to B-A-R-B-E-Q-U-E!!! You all had better learn some cooking lessons from the pros. Tell those African, killin' males, the person they're shooting might be a relative. They know how we've all been separated throughout the Diaspora throughout the WORLD. They SHOULD NEVER RAISE THEIR HANDS TO FIRE ANYTHING AT ANYONE EVER. Either shake hands in love or keep on steppin'. Mr. Lofton, O-R-G-A-N-I-Z-E or please shut up!!! We all have enough problems of our own dealing with retardation of all kinds; African and European and all the damn colors in-between. By the way, there's only ONE RACE; HUMAN. It's COLORS folks have trouble dealing with." by Norland

Well Norland, the above very calloused and inappropriate response is a reflection on you and not me. It is certain that the victims would not share your viewpoint. I'm not about to shut up. Seems to me someone else has lost their composure, and it is not......Michael Lofton

"You don't have any composure to lose. You've lost your African mind, plain and simple" by Norland

I'm not African, and neither are you! The only individuals who have lost their mind are the perpetrators, and in this case you!

Michael Lofton
"Either shake hands in love or keep on steppin'. Mr. Lofton, O-R-G-A-N-I-Z-E or please shut up!!!"

I don't have to lift a finger in the interest of organizing any movement to stop this senseless killing. Besides, numerous organizational efforts already exist, to which the rate of Black on Black killing has only accelerated. Plain and simple, Black people will either get with the program, or they will be fodder for the system, meaning prison inmates, guinea pigs for surgical experimentation, or become human fertilizer after their human remains decompose to dirt.

It is not my responsibility to direct the lives of anyone presumed to be an adult, and/or those who should know the difference between right and wrong.

One thing is certain, these individuals will end up in prison, and/or more Black people will be killed, killed either by police officers whose duty is to protect and serve, killed by those who exercise there U.S. Constitutional right to bear arms as a means of self defense, and/or killed by those of Black America who choose to be disgraceful.

Former New York Police Chief William Bratton, who heads the Los Angeles Police Department, in conjunction with the rank and file of the LAPD, intend to rid Los Angeles of this non-sense to make Los Angeles a world class city.

South Central Los Angeles is now considered to be an important piece of real estate by Hispanics, Caucasians,a few Black people, Koreans, a consortium of Real Estate Developers, etc., to which any misfit who has no respect for the property right of others will be removed from South Central Los Angeles, one way or another, be it through penal incarceration, human remains in a pine box, or killed by Los Angeles police officers, whose duty is to serve, defend, and protect the residents of the City of Los Angeles.

It would every Black man or woman who plans to ride this tide of success to abide by the law, or face the stiff consequences, as it pertains to still jail time and/or death. At the rate that Black on Black criminal activity has consumed Black life, few if any Black people will be a part of the re-gentrification process within South Central Los Angeles.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 12, 2003 at 06:47 PM.]
Lofton posted,

I don't have to lift a finger in the interest of organizing any movement to stop this senseless killing. Besides, numerous organizational efforts already exist, to which the rate of Black on Black killing has only accelerated. Plain and simple, Black people will either get with the program, or they will be fodder for the system, meaning prison inmates, guinea pigs for surgical experimentation, or become human fertilizer after their human remains decompose to dirt.


*** Not only do you not have to, just go ahead and admit you had no f-king intentions of doing so in the first place.

**Which once again tends to lend credence to the theory that you are either an antagonistic white or a self-hating negro who relishes in the misfortunes of black people and are glad they occur daily so you can do so.......


Take a good look at who you grew up to be Lofton and ask yourself.......what went wrong?
Kevin, this dude's from another planet. I'll bet he posts from some psycho ward; if not, he NEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDSSSSSSS to be committed, quick, fast and in a hurry!!! upset He's ROBOTIC. Spews the same hateful crap all the time. Must be a member of some cult or something. He sure can make one cuss up a bluestreak. I'd hate to meet him face-to-face. I'd really forget I was a woman and wouldn't care one iota. It would be OOONNNNNN! broscream
Well Norland,

"I'd hate to meet him face-to-face. I'd really forget I was a woman and wouldn't care one iota. It would be OOONNNNNN!" by Norland

Could of fooled me, I thought you were a sailor! The business owners of Ghettopoly need look no further than this message board to find supportive material in real life for the game. As for the comments of either you or Kevin41, I could care less as to what you think of me, because believe it or not, neither of you are an ingredient to my success.

The comments of a few individuals to the contrary will not change the fact that Black America's own elected leaders, preachers, and those who defend such sleaze are about as worthless as worthless can be!

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 12, 2003 at 11:00 PM.]
Ain't nothin' wrong with being a sailor. They're protecting your black/white/polka-dot butt right now. You need some of their "fire power" in Los Angeles evidentally, to keep those loose African cannons in check!!! You should try cussin', it's a great release, you robotic, angry sucka. Out of great respect to MBM, I haven't cussed at all. I use "sound-alikes". In person, you'd hear the real deal!! Loud and clear!!!! Stodgy Africans aren't cute to Norland. There's a whole bunch of nastiness under that pontificating persona folks of your kind try to exhude. I wasn't born yesterday, and I'm not ready for the nursing home just yet. You're not god-like to me and I don't give a hoot what you think of me either. Now, we're even!!! bs
I swear, I think sometimes think that Kevin41 and Lofton are the same sycophantic person. I think both of you annoy one another so much because you are the mirror image of one another.

Both of you generalize everything to fit in your perception of reality of Black America and neither of you seem able to think outside of your own perspectives. Life isn't straight black and white, it is full of gray areas and both of you don't seem to be able to understand that.

Black people aren't the curse of American society that Mr. Lofton seems to need to paint us out to be, and we aren't the perpetual victims that Kevin41 seem to have to cling to either. I find both these narrow-minded perceptions extremely insulting. Black people are a lot more complex than either of you give us credit for, Both your ways of thinking feeds right into the liberal and conservative frame of minds your respective Caucasian masters have conditioned you for.

You both are perfect examples of why black people do not have more political power in this country. It's right there for the taking, yet we can't seem to grab it for holding down your brother. You are either doggedly left or far right and it makes it so easy for both parties to take you for granted because they don't have to think, much less act at all to win your political backing, and it's votes that they are after. NEITHER party really gives a shit about you or your particular perspectives. They only want your vote and until we as a whole stop being so simple in our thinking and learn to manipulate the SYSTEM to our benefit, it will always be this way.

Our forefather changed the philosophy of the Democratic Party because they desperately need our votes. We made the political parties change because it was clear they need us as much as we needed them. Why can't we do it again? Both these parties know that they have everlasting loyalty when it comes to their black voters and they only need to throw a bone your way every now and again to get your tail wagging and keep you content.

Willie Lynch may not have been a real person, but you both are the examples that the philosophy behind it certainly is, and it is still working to perfection.

And you wonder why a immigrant can come over here and make a fortune off our image AND the predictable response.

I have a headache.
you too.....

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
How can YOU call someone worthless? What is your basis for doing so? by Kevin41

Easily, and with good reason. Unlike you, I'm not pompous. I'm not going to make good anything that is truly rotten. Nor will there ever be the time that I will make excuses for such activity, as you would prefer to do. Anyone who defends the activity as described below, and/or similar activity that is very common place in the Black community, is worthless. More so than not, it is a known fact that many Black people do in fact idolize this foolishness. The number of people who give praise to this foolish exceed by leaps and bounds the number of people who condemn this very disgraceful and treasonous activity.

Apathy on the part of the Black community, specifically as applied to the Black middle class, make it easy for the Daryl Sweeneys, the Yvonne B. Burkes, the Lou Byrds, the Reverend Jesse Jacksons, the Kweisi Mfumes, the Reverend Murrays, the Congressman Walter Tuckers, The Carpetbagging Prostitute Seeking Kevin Murrays, the blatant Bafoons in Los Angeles City Councilman Nate Holdens, the Cocaine smoking Marian Barrys, etc., to exist. There is no mystery that these misfits from within our own community are in fact disgraceful. Such an existance is supported with the blessing of middle class Black America! This being said, those who fit the description are indeed worthless!

This is not to say that the Hispanics, and/or other ethnic groups do not have their own set of disgraceful individuals, because they do! However, by and large the Hispanics are more politically active, they will challenge the leadership who are proven to be criminal, unethical, etc. In comparison more times that not, those who are criminal and/or unethical are kept in office by the community of Black America itself. The few people, such as myself who would challenge this very disgraceful and treasonous type of activity, are not enough to overcome the many supporters in our own Black community, who would prefer to make heroes out of misfits!

_______________________________________________

It would be very easy to come to the conclusion that an incompetent elected official, lawyer, judge, no good breaking up solid Black families for profit Black social workers, placing infants of probation no good Black probation officers, police officer, preacher and/or other influentual individual can do more harm than any gangmember, or gang set. While that small time criminal or gangmember may negatively impact the lives of a few individuals, an elected offical, preacher, lawyer can destroy the lives of many.

With the stroke of a pen, an elected official, lawyer, no good probation officer, no good social worker, and/or judge can take legally acquired property, disparage human life, etc., with far more ease, and at the same time attempt to make the act legitimate,....that is if those who witness such an act fail to challenge or contest such activity!

________________________________________________

"Mayor Accused of Giving Relative Sweet Tow Deal
Ex-supporters criticize Lynwood official for pact with father-in-law. The mayor says it's legal.

By Richard Marosi

Times Staff Writer

October 13, 2003

For years, Raul Varela was just another Lynwood tow truck driver circling the streets for sputtering cars. He owned three trucks, parked them outside his house and dispatched drivers from a room behind his garage.

Today, Raul's Towing Service boasts a 3,000-square-foot facility remodeled with city funds. Varela bills Lynwood as much as $500 for each towed car. And soon he may get to store the cars at a city yard.Varela's tow truck operation began hooking deals after Fernando Pedroza, his son-in-law, was elected in November 2001 to the City Council of this working-class city in southeast Los Angeles County. Pedroza, with his two then-allies on the council, gave Varela the exclusive rights to remove abandoned vehicles in the city, placing Pedroza's father-in-law in the driver's seat in the local tow truck wars. Previously, the city had not paid for such services.

The move was stunning, some say, even by Lynwood standards. In 2001, former Councilman Paul Richards, who was recalled in September, voted for a $1-million consulting contract for his sister. And council members have used their city-issued credit cards for expensive dinners, trips to beach resorts and other questionable purchases, triggering an investigation by the Los Angeles County district attorney's office.

Pedroza, during his campaign, promised to do away with family deal-making, vowing on videotape never to approve a contract benefiting his relatives.

The videotape is being used in a recall effort by some former Pedroza supporters who say the onetime plastics salesman betrayed them.

Pedroza, who became mayor in 2002, said he has not broken his promise. Legally speaking, his father-in-law is not a family member, he said. Conflict-of-interest laws prevent him from voting only on contracts for his wife or children, Pedroza said in an interview at his City Hall office.

"I have kept my promise. I said no sweetheart deals. I haven't had a family member receive a sweetheart deal," he said.

Varela did not return phone calls seeking comment.

Former supporters said they had thought Pedroza would clean up city government but now believe that he is practicing the same kind of nepotism that he criticized Richards for. Fathers-in-law, they said, are an integral part of a family, especially among Latinos. Pedroza didn't break the law, but he broke his promise, they maintained.

"He knows his father-in-law is family," said Joaquin Mesinas, a UPS driver and one of many Lynwood residents with roots in the Mexican state of Oaxaca. "I'm really disappointed in the guy. It just shows you what kind of a person Fernando is."

Mesinas and other former Pedroza supporters said the mayor is heavily influenced by Varela, who they said often accompanies the son-in-law to meetings with other politicians and community leaders.

Before his tow truck business became a success, Varela was better known as the president of United Families of Lynwood, a nonprofit organization providing various community services, including beautification projects, the distribution of low-flow toilets and yard work for senior citizens. Pedroza, who helps run the organization, drew much of his early political support from members.

But some former volunteers said they now believe that United Families was merely a vehicle for Pedroza's rise to political power, with Varela acting as orchestrator and beneficiary. They say the organization was used to raise Pedroza's profile and to cast him as a man of the community.

When Varela's son-in-law became mayor, "look how good" Varela's life became, said Miguel Figueroa, a former volunteer for United Families.

Pedroza denied that his father-in-law influences his affairs or that the nonprofit was a platform for the future mayor's political ambitions.

The organization, he said, has at least 20 volunteers and continues to provide services. "United Families helps seniors wholeheartedly," Pedroza said. "It does not get involved in politics. It involves people who want to donate their time to help seniors in need."

Varela first made a move for city business in 2001. He was still operating his tow truck company out of his house, with an eye toward expanding to a city-owned site on Wright Road, backing up to the Long Beach Freeway.

Varela's was not the only business that wanted the property. A construction company had offered $131,000 in a proposal that would not have cost the city any money, according to city documents. The firm, W.A. Rasic Construction, offered to buy the site, which included a run-down industrial building, as is.

Pedroza and his then-allies on the council "” Arturo Reyes and Ramon Rodriguez "” instead let Varela purchase the property for $195,000, giving him a $125,000, 3% city loan. The council also gave Varela a no-interest $70,000 loan to improve the building, according to documents. Varela does not have to repay the construction loan if he remains in business for five years.

During the meeting at which the deal was discussed, Pedroza said his vote would not constitute a conflict of interest because Varela was not a "blood" relative.

Nine months after approving the land deal, Pedroza and his council allies made Varela the city's exclusive tow service provider.

Until then, such cars had been disposed of by five other Lynwood tow operators whom the city did not have to pay. Varela, who pays Lynwood a franchise fee "” 20% of the amount he bills the city "” has netted $56,000 under the arrangement.

Tow truck industry experts said the setup is unusual, because tow truck companies usually get stuck with the cost of towing and disposing of abandoned vehicles. Rick Bays, president of the California Tow Truck Assn., said no other municipality that he is aware of pays a company to tow such cars. Usually the task is a condition of the permit for operating in the city.

"In 33 years, I've never heard of anyone with that kind of a sweetheart deal," said Bays of the Lynwood situation.

Pedroza has backed another measure that could help his father-in-law. Last month, he voted to expand the city's corporate yard, which will have room for a 66-vehicle tow yard.

City officials have not said whether Raul's Towing will use the site, and the expansion may now be shelved because a power shift on the five-member council has left Pedroza without a majority.

But critics say Pedroza still wants his father-in-law to have access to the site.

At a recent meeting, when Councilman Reyes tried to ask city officials if Raul's Towing would be using the new yard, Pedroza cut Reyes off, telling him he was "blabbering." Reyes and Rodriguez are no longer allies of Pedroza.

The mayor denied that the city would accommodate his father in-law's business. He said confiscated vehicles, not abandoned ones, would be stored at the tow yard.

His critics don't believe him and are gathering signatures to launch the recall drive. "He was supposed to be against corruption and nepotism, and he's doing the same thing "” even worse," said Eddy Hernandez, a construction worker and a leader of the recall effort."

_______________________________________

Indeed, Ghettopoly, Willie Lynch, or any other similar adjective, is alive and well in the Black community, namely because the Black middle class more so than the Black underclass promote this activity. The typical Black middle class choose to protect their friends, to play it safe, and in some instances to receive "Kick backs" and/or gratuities for themselves. Any exposure or any act to contest this activity would mean that the so-called Black middle class will have to take a stand to criminally indict, sue for damages, or expose disgraceful activity perpetrated by perhaps a family member, a relative, a close friend, a neighbor, etc.

It is an insult, and afront to the entire Black community for the majority of those who call themselves middle class, to support this very treasonous, perverted, and counter-productive activity.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 13, 2003 at 07:14 PM.]
You know Norland,

The Internet is a place for refuge for people like Lofton. I would love to meet a cat like him in person.....and i'm sure they exist.....but they are usually sheepish and cowardly in person, so you'd never know. I have worked with some self-hating blacks who castigated everything considered pro-black by blacks......after ripping them a new one.....they avoid a brother like the plague....I have even seen them turn the other way......so you can best believe, for every ounce of unsubstantiated nonsense I have to ingest here, I really make them pay in real life............
quote:
The business owners of Ghettopoly need look no further than this message board to find supportive material in real life for the game.
LOFTON, I'M GONNA ASK YOU NICELY TO EXPLAIN...

You're good at Linking and Quoting... So provide quotes of statements from post on "this message board" that reflect what's promoted in GHETTOPOLY.
Are you saying that there is a Ghetto mentality on this message board? Or are you generalizing and saying ALL Blacks are "ghetto"?

NAME the posters that support:
quote:
"Buying stolen properties, pimpin hoes, building crack houses and projects, paying protection fees and getting car jacked..."

Lofton... upset

fool
soapbox

Those are about the nicest things I can say about a COWARD like you. It's one thing to demonize people who hold a different ideological perspective than you but it's down right %$*@(@^@*(^$^@ to completely disrespect those who disagree with you by saying they are "real life" examples of Ghettopoly.

LOFTON... do yourself a favor and stop hiding behind the cloak that you are addressing things that are problematic and just say you are A COWARDLY, RACIST BASTARD!! (and your skin color doesn't matter, although I doubt you can be honest about that either.)
whatzgoingon,

I have always lead by example in terms of success and showing others how to do the same...as an educator I have helped many on the path to success also. I also devote money and encourage others to give payroll deductions to organizations such as UNCF like I have since around 1988. I am sure as an individual I have affected many in a positive way, so f-k your example of comparing me to Lofton who has probably never done shit for black people but spew hatred towards them......hell I know what I do for my race....and this guy says he doesn't have to life a finger to do jack-shit, yet rails on black people daily because it is easy and lazy in nature.....I resent you for even fixing your mouth to say some asinine bullshit like you just did. Okay, I have seen black people perform at the pinnacle of excellence..and I have seen them suffer the worse of social ills. And your reference to me being trapped with a middle class view is bullschit also......because what you fail to realize, I did not come from somewhere like this shallow azz place where substance is based on material possessions......I come from a place where black people do not hate each other and have a much less degree of social separation based on economics.....and as so far as me seeing blacks as being victims....how in the f-k could I have received a doctorate before 35 and do so? How in the f-k could I see blacks as victims when I have been around black people who are the epitome of achievement FOR ANY RACE........You really need to not speak on my behalf because you make a real azz out of yourself in the process....but just because I am successful, I'm not supposed to turn my back on black people and pretend like they do not have problems they face daily.....and if you would like me to, I can post daily social research from black academic journals so you can see everything I talk about is very substantiated from the standpoint of social occurrence and legislative intent.

And as so far as politics, I do not really give a f-k about left, right or center....because white people look out for each other period....and no matter what everyone calls or subdivide themselves into....they are all non-whites and are viewed and treated as such. I do not politicize social issues...I have a no-stance approach to them. I am for any political action that increases educational and economic opportunities for blacks. I also believe in any kind of policy that the black majority finds inclusive in nature. This support is given after distinct policy analysis is performed to determine if beneficial legislative outcomes exist. So before you try to assign me the simplistic azz mindset of some damn buffoon that runs off at the mouth.....you may need to review the history of my posts from JBHE and you'll see the kind of topics I am concerned with. And once again, unless someone is leading by example and providing time, money , effort and other resources....then they are just blowing hot smoke out of their azzes....and for the Negro who likes to take the counter-to-black-majority view without being able to explain their stance in terms of being beneficial to blacks generally across the board is a damn fool who will always have their dialogue limited to informal forums where credibility is not an issue......So in the future, instead of assigning me the mindset that allows YOU to assign YOURSELF the perception of me you would like to have, ask me directly. I'll be glad to tell you and anyone else how I see things......with justification for those very views....until then, keep my damn name out of your mouth because you obviously don't know what the hell you are talking about...as you try to stick me in the file folder as some categorical Negro you THINK you have assessed correctly....
Kev,

YOU are the one who originally compared me to Lofton and other people you disagree with, with no basis at all except that I disagreed with your worldview, which is where I lost most of my respect for your opinions. It seems to you, if it doesn't sound the same, it must be counter-productive. Every one of your posts directed toward me have been full of generalizations and opinion laden rhetoric and you have not produced ONE fact in the entire dialogue, so don't ask of me what you are not willing to do yourself. Go back and read them if you don't believe me. Only simple minded people and people with agendas think one way. We know Lofton's agenda. What's yours?

And before you say it, I am surrounded by PhD's and many of them are as simple minded as the next person, which is part of the problem.

As far as you giving money to UNFC, so do lots of whites and corporations who don't give a f"”k about what really goes on in the community, so that doesn't impress me. How about showing your face in the community as a mentor or a big brother or volunteering or doing some proactive action to fix our community instead of throwing money at the problems or offering scholarships to middle class student with a solid foundation or those who were lucky enough to get out of the hood. Maybe setting a good example from a distance isn't enough. Get your hands dirty and TALK to these kids and you will see where I get my opinions on the psychology of black America. I for damned sure ain't relying on research journals, though these journals are helping me to understand the behavior a lot better.

But you would rather keep portraying blacks as victims who can't achieve because the mighty white people won't let us. Instead of trying to fix issues that are at the core of some of our problems ALONG with the racist element of this society, you want to look at racism as the SOLE cause of everything that is wrong within community. It seem the establishment, for all the ills in our community and are afraid of looking closely at our problems less you find out that what the whites said is true, black people are dumb and can't make it without the white man's support. I honestly believe this is what is in the bottom of the hearts of some of these liberal, oh it's not your fault, it's society's fault, it's the white man's fault, it's the media's fault, etc, etc. This drives me just as nuts as the black ultra conservatives like Lofton who believe that blacks are essentially worthless and have only achieved what we have because of white society, and they are exception to the rule. Neither of you really believe in us!

You are not helping the future generations by coddling them and excusing self responsibility to lift ourselves up. Our of our situation. What makes you think that after 400+ years whites are finally going to see the light and make right what was wrong? You are only making our problems a self-fulfilling prophecy. Since you got your PhD before you were 35, research theories called "Chosen Trauma "or "Learned Helplessness"or "Image Theory" Read them carefully, though I am sure you will twist them somehow to misinterpret it as me claiming that racism doesn't exists or some of your other totally baseless, opinion laden, simplistic black or white views of me, as you have done in previous posts.

I stand by everything I said about you and Lofton, as both of you have the same generalizing, narrow minded reaction to anything that doesn't fit into your system is disregarded and generalized. Oh, and mirror image means that your image is reflected only backwards. Think about it for a minute . . .

Since you seem very willing to throw out your educational credentials, I am a Master's Degree student at 25 who will graduate in Conflict Analysis and Resolution May and will have either a PhD in the same field or Public Policy or a JD (more likely) or possibly a PhD and a JD well before I am 30. So it is not like I don't have tons of research on the psychology, sociology, economics, anthropology, cultural studies, etc. of numerous groups under my belt. This is why I told you in earlier post that it was okay if you didn't understand my plan now, because you would soon. And I am not posturing; I am simply letting you know that I am far from, as you phrased it, "blowing hot smoke out of (my) azz."


And if I am indeed the "Negro who likes to take the counter-to-black-majority view without being able to explain their stance in terms of being beneficial to blacks generally across the board is a damn fool who will always have their dialogue limited to informal forums where credibility is not an issue," you are right. I have no definitive plan as to what black need to do to move on, but I'm working at it. But I will ask you, what data can you produce to explain why the black middle class is expanding, but why is it that the black (poor) seem to be getting poorer, health care, education, crime, single parent households, drug use, etc seem to be getting worse in the black community as the black middle class gets richer? Is that a product of this "plan" is working so well for us black folks?

Or is the goal just to get a bigger, richer black middle class?
Well Nmaginate,

You're good at Linking and Quoting... So provide quotes of statements from post on "this message board" that reflect what's promoted in GHETTOPOLY.

Are you saying that there is a Ghetto mentality on this message board? Or are you generalizing and saying ALL Blacks are "ghetto"? by Nmaginate

Anyone who would defend the likes of the many true misfits, in Black America's own no good elected officials, preachers of sleaze, the many snake oil saleman, etc., in our own community would definitely fit right in there with Ghettopoly, and/or any sequels thereof. If this fits you, then you can answer your own question!

As for the rest of your comments I could care less as to what you think of me. Should anyone of you choose to challenge me I have yet to run from a fight. This being said, you can under estimate me if you so choose, but I'm not about to kiss up, bow down, say "Uncle", etc., to anyone be it Black, Caucasian, Korean, Kevin41, ricardomath, Norland, you, or anyone else!

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

"Buying stolen properties, pimpin hoes, building crack houses and projects, paying protection fees and getting car jacked,....and if you throw in the Black middle class....breaking up the Black family for profit no good Black social workers...no good Black foster parents, Black probation officers placing minors including infants on probation, carpetbagging game playing sleazy using false pretenses to hold elected office Black elected officials, and/or last but not least the so-called educated Black middle class bend over backwards to support this foolishness. No need to fabricate this, because this information is very real.

Heck, let the sequels to Ghettopoly roll, because the Ghetto mentality goes beyond the gang members, pimps, prostitutes, etc. Believe it or not, some of the so-called university educated of Black America, are "educated fools", which is the worst in anything criminal. Some of the gangmembers, small time criminals, petty boosters, would be considered as saints when standing side by side, with this truly criminal educated class of Black America.

I've already proven myself. Fist fighting will not resolve this problem, because this disgraceful activity is well entrenched in the habits of many of the Black middle class and not the Black underclass. This being said I will not waste any more of my valuable time with this merry-go-round, with the likes of Nmaginate, Kevin41, Norland, or any other detractor.

Yo Crip, Yo Crippette, Yo Blood, Yo Bloodette, I hope this message reaches you, because many of you who have been in the system can relate to what I'm referring to. The so-called Black middleclass, especially as it applies to the misfit set, would prefer to blame all the criminal acts that occur within the inner-city on the underclass, the gang community, etc.

Nothing can be farther from the truth. The biggest thieves, criminals, etc., wear business attire. In many instances, when it comes to common sense, some of these individuals in spite of possessing a university degree, prove through their own disgraceful actions, that in real life they must be Baffoons! To think that Ghettopoly is referring to just the underclass, and cannot be applied to those of Black America who hold that university degree, but whose actions are truly criminal, is about as unrealistic, as unrealistic can get!

Speaking of Getting the Picture, the so-called educated class better get busy, because more so than the underclass this is a reflection on their inability to:

A. Obey the law.

B. Be ethical and responsible.

B. Be moral.

C. Do under others as you would expect them to do under you.

D. Respect the lawful rights of others.

E. Prove that they have any ethnic sense, as opposed to exhibiting the height of treason, and/or diarrhea of the mouth when it comes to making excuses for their own criminal and unethical wrongdoing!

No need for me to be any plainer than this, because I'm definitely making headway with this message!

"As always, YOU fly off at the MOUTH and say SCHIT you can't back-up! And I'll say it again, in case you missed it... ANYTIME YOU WANT TO STEP." by Nmaginate

Seems to me, the Nmaginates, the Kevin41s, the Norlands, need to check their own habit of flying off at the mouth, and/or making statements that they cannot backup!

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 13, 2003 at 09:45 PM.]
quote:
You're good at Linking and Quoting... So provide quotes of statements from post on "this message board" that reflect what's promoted in GHETTOPOLY.

Are you saying that there is a Ghetto mentality on this message board? Or are you generalizing and saying ALL Blacks are "ghetto"?

NAME the posters that supports:

"Buying stolen properties, pimpin hoes, building crack houses and projects, paying protection fees and getting car jacked..."


Maybe if I ask you twice you will answer the [bold] question DIRECTLY!

As for your "fight" invitation... Bring It On!
Don't Talk About It! Be About It!

Maybe you can get Chang to put that in his next game. Or maybe... the "My heart don't pump no Kool-Aid!" or lines like that.

Anyway... I think you get the picture.

As always, YOU fly off at the MOUTH and say SCHIT you can't back-up! And I'll say it again, in case you missed it... ANYTIME YOU WANT TO STEP!
whatzgoingon,


Where in the f-k do you keep getting at the point where I see blacks as victims? puleeze tell me. quit saying that stupid schit when i keep eluding to black excellence DESPITE racism, not because it doesn't exist. Is it because I acknowledge the reality that many blacks face despite my own damn success? hell i was an EE by the age of 22 and went places blacks or whites could only dream of and have worked with technologies 15 yrs ago that still haven't come to frutition outside of the R&D arena. Guess what? My application still said AA candidate....not due to my lack of qualifications....but because of this racist azz country would fade a brother based on his complexion ALONE.....and by the way, I was in a Masters program by the age of 23....so i'm not impressed by nothing....not even myself....really not myself or anyone else, black or white...matter of fact i'm going back one day because I still haven't been challenged..and by the way..the UNCF schools are the black schools without money that does help poor kids and even those who need remedial bridge courses because their high schools did not adequately prepare them for college. and in case you did not grasp the concept...the growing middle class matriculates from the poor.....like I said earlier...i know PhD's whose parents were sharecroppers...the epitome of social progress....and as so far as the explanation of the growing middle class...read JBHE and read the quantitative data that demonstrates this fact. Look at the economic indicators of the late 80's thru 2000. You are an academic so it will not take you long to see where I am coming from. And as so far as comparing you to lofton, I mentioned that in the sense that you emulated his behavior: you told me about myself without refuting my points...stay off of the personal aspects of the discussion and damn what I do in terms of those who disagree with me...tell me why the things Ipost themselves lack merit and I can deal with it....but I doubt if that is going to happen........because as much as i emphasize education, you saying that i feel racism is the SOLE cause of anything is bullshit......go back and read my posts as you told me to....where have I ever said that racism was the exclusive cause of anything.......read my posts about the lack of educational attainment or the bling bling ,mentality that makes us screw our priorities up where emphasis on material bullschit is placed above investment in ourselves. Don't speak on my behalf the way you WANT to see things as being a part of my philosophy. I can speak on my own behalf....so unless you extract my direct post as what I say or think.....you are just participating in biased speculation...plain and simple.......so I do not have a problem with anyone in here...but when you refute me, stick to the topic and use my exact words...not YOUR version of what I said...and i'm kool with it....because if you are anyone else can tell me how I think is BS....i am willing to scratch it and adopt what you explain to me..........
Wow, whatzgoingon, I have been reading your posts througout and have much respect for you. Though, I am a "conservative", I do not think blacks are worthless, but I am not going to sugar coat the real problems facing the black community for expediency.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way about the "professor". He has done to me exactly what he has done to you. We go back to the TBWT days where he was much more hostile and intolerant. I wish it was still around because I would prove it by providing a link.

quote:
Originally posted by whatzgoingon:
And before you say it, I am surrounded by PhD's and many of them are as simple minded as the next person, which is part of the problem.


Yes, just because one has a PhD does not mean that one has common sense. This individual is always telling us what his credentials are from his education to his career. This is all well and good, but does not have anything to do with this board or the discussion at hand.

quote:
Originally posted by whatzgoingon:
But you would rather keep portraying blacks as victims who can't achieve because the mighty white people won't let us. Instead of trying to fix issues that are at the core of some of our problems ALONG with the racist element of this society, you want to look at racism as the SOLE cause of everything that is wrong within community. It seem the establishment, for all the ills in our community and are afraid of looking closely at our problems less you find out that what the whites said is true, black people are dumb and can't make it without the white man's support. I honestly believe this is what is in the bottom of the hearts of some of these liberal, oh it's not your fault, it's society's fault, it's the white man's fault, it's the media's fault, etc, etc. This drives me just as nuts as the black ultra conservatives like Lofton who believe that blacks are essentially worthless and have only achieved what we have because of white society, and they are exception to the rule. Neither of you really believe in us!


This is what I have been saying all along. These types have an excuse for everything that's wrong instead of looking where the problem actually lies. If this is the case then the problem will never be solved. The first step for an person with a substance abuse problem, be it alcohol or drugs, to address their problem is to admit they have one. If you cannot admit to having a problem, it will never be soleved. I really do not think Mr. Lofton is anti-black. I think he is frustrated from dealing with put down artists like Kevin41, et al. JMO, Mr. Lofton can speak very well for himself.

quote:
Originally posted by whatzgoingon:
YOU are the one who originally compared me to Lofton and other people you disagree with, with no basis at all except that I disagreed with your worldview, which is where I lost most of my respect for your opinions. It seems to you, if it doesn't sound the same, it must be counter-productive. Every one of your posts directed toward me have been full of generalizations and opinion laden rhetoric and you have not produced ONE fact in the entire dialogue, so don't ask of me what you are not willing to do yourself. Go back and read them if you don't believe me.


Yes, again you are exhibiting the same frustrations that I've had with this person. He is a master at twisting what you post, deliberately mis-interpreting your opinions, ah yes, of course the personal attacks, and un-substantiated allegations......When I asked him to produce substantiation he once told me to go find it myself!!! Usually he would come back with personal attacks, putdowns, all sorts of things he could not prove even if he wanted to. But the thing that's always amazed me about him is what he is a master of, he accuses others of doing.......

quote:
Originally posted by whatzgoingon:
though I am sure you will twist them somehow to misinterpret it as me claiming that racism doesn't exists or some of your other totally baseless, opinion laden, simplistic black or white views of me, as you have done in previous posts.

LOL!!! Gee Kev, a lot of people pick up on your tactics!!! LOL!!! Where's TBWT when you need it!!!! Oh yes, he used to blatantly lie and get caught!!! Thanks, Kev!!!


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
but when you refute me, stick to the topic and use my exact words...not YOUR version of what I said...


I am actually Laughing Out Loud reading this. This man is a professional victim if I have ever seen one for sure!!!! My first encounter with him on TBWT he came out with personal attacks, insults, etc, I thought at first it was a joke, it turned out this is his style!! I mean, it got so bad for him, he even wished harm on my family!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
i know PhD's whose parents were sharecroppers...the epitome of social progress....


And yes, so do I, and they did this over 100 years ago without any assistance from the government you so love (that's the epitome of social progress!!!). They did it on their own accord, as I'm sure the people you know did. I am boldong this so you will not be able to twist what I just stated.

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
I can speak on my own behalf....so unless you extract my direct post as what I say or think.....you are just participating in biased speculation...plain and simple.......so I do not have a problem with anyone in here...

People like myself have always done this with you. Remember on TBWT, I did this, ramses357 (remember him???) did this?? It pissed you off, I'm sure you don't remember. Put you said that the basic style of debating was a "biitch tactic". So "there you go again". Suggesting that someone go to a style of debating which you couldn't stand before. You simply amaze me!!!!
But, Kev, don't you always participate in biased speculation?? Even when it was suggested that you extract exactly what was posted?? But you never did that. It was much easier for you to twist, speculate, insult, put down, "I have a PhD, I'm so smart, you just a self hating azz who needs to be educated, etc, etc, etc" You get the point, I'm sure!!! I can see, Kev, you haven't changed one iota!!!

Now this a kicker!!!! LOL!!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
you told me about myself without refuting my points...stay off of the personal aspects of the discussion and damn what I do in terms of those who disagree with me...



whatz, you did a superb job in refuting his points and you did not get personal. You were merely responding to the personal attacks he leveled on you, and you were very professional about it. Kudos to you for it and being just 25!!! Maybe the 40 something "professor" can learn a thing or two from you!!! AHHHHH, what am I saying, he has a PhD, he knows everything. He couldn't possibly learn anything from people he sees that he's above!!! He is the most pompous, arrogant person I have encountered on any internet forum!! It's a wonder that he holds Jesse Jackson and Bill Clinton in such high regard....he's just like them!!!!

Continue you objective posts on this forum. I know you will not agree with a lot of my views, that's ok. But I wanted to tell you that you are a much needed breath of fresh air on the board!!!!!

You will go very far in life, keep up the EXCELLENT WORK!!!!!

thumbsup

[This message was edited by IndependentMan on October 13, 2003 at 09:36 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
LOFTON, I'M GONNA ASK YOU NICELY TO EXPLAIN..._

NAME the posters that support:
quote:
"Buying stolen properties, pimpin hoes, building crack houses and projects, paying protection fees and getting car jacked..."




Umm... Actually, I have to confess. It's me that Lofton is talking about. I support pimpin' hoes. Lofton should know; I've had his ass out there turning tricks for me for the past few years. As long as he gives me my damn money, we have no problems!

(Why do I suspect this post is gonna end up being quoted on one of those conservative sites?)
Well Vox,

"Umm... Actually, I have to confess. It's me that Lofton is talking about. I support pimpin' hoes. Lofton should know; I've had his ass out there turning tricks for me for the past few years. As long as he gives me my damn money, we have no problems!" by Vox

"Buying stolen properties, pimpin hoes, building crack houses and projects, paying protection fees and getting car jacked,....and if you throw in the Black middle class....breaking up the Black family for profit no good Black social workers...no good Black foster parents, Black probation officers placing minors including infants on probation, carpetbagging game playing sleazy using false pretenses to hold elected office Black elected officials, and/or last but not least the so-called educated Black middle class bend over backwards to support this foolishness. No need to fabricate this, because this information is very real." by Lofton

I like the second version more, because it is more in tune with reality!

I don't have to go there, meaning PW, the American Republicans, etc., because most everything here is already being seen elsewhere. You did it all by yourself, which does not include my input. This being said, perhaps you are one of the few who puts himself out on the "Stroll"! Did you get your money yet?

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton
Well Nmaginate,

"LOFTON.... Get your azz back on that corner and make that money for you Big White Pimp!

You know you're known for that 2-for-1 special!

Well BLOW me down!"

The only community or group of individuals being pimped or hustled daily is in fact the Black community. The Black community is the most economically deprived, unrepresented and/or misrepresented community there is. This being said the brunt of the joke, which is actually no joke, and/or the anger should not be directed at Michael Lofton, but rather those from within our community who promote this. .....And guess who the pimps are, Black America's own no good sleazy preachers, poverty pimping game playing elected officials, etc.

As usual this does not upset you, Kevin41, Norland, etc., because evidently, each of you condone it! Must be a "Hell" of a nightmare to know that in real life you are being pimped daily by Black people, and not Caucasian America.

Or perhaps you are not angry as of yet, because reality has not hit you where it hurts, meaning the unwarranted loss of your assets, the loss of a family member for profit by the greedy, being illegally incarcerated, petitioning any gaming playing Black elected official for redress...yet all petitions for redress fall on deaf ears.

But wait, according to your belief, which is truly a misnomer, Ghettopoly only applies to the underclass, meaning gangmembers, whinos, pimps, the poverty stricken, whores, welfare recipients, carjackers, to the curb drug addicts, felons, prison inmates, Bubba the Booty Bandit's sexual partner, rapists, child molesters, etc.!

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 13, 2003 at 11:39 PM.]
Independent Man posted in the process of jocking someone else and not providing his own independent thoughts:

Wow, whatzgoingon, I have been reading your posts througout and have much respect for you. Though, I am a "conservative", I do not think blacks are worthless, but I am not going to sugar coat the real problems facing the black community for expediency.

**No one does MOM.....you and your type like to take the dialogue that people use and twist it for your own weak azz argument. Learn to refute people using their original dialogue and not some convoluted bullshit that is indicative of YOUR interpretation.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way about the "professor". He has done to me exactly what he has done to you. We go back to the TBWT days where he was much more hostile and intolerant. I wish it was still around because I would prove it by providing a link.

*Yeah i was more hostile in terms of how expressive I was of my resentment of black conservatives (house negroes)...until I learned that they are forever in awe of white people and can not be rehabilitated.....i'm kool now....i just feel sorry for ya'll.......


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by whatzgoingon:
And before you say it, I am surrounded by PhD's and many of them are as simple minded as the next person, which is part of the problem.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, just because one has a PhD does not mean that one has common sense. This individual is always telling us what his credentials are from his education to his career. This is all well and good, but does not have anything to do with this board or the discussion at hand.

***Yeah, that is what people who do not have the balls to put in the work say to discredit those who have put in waaay more work. That is crystal clear to see through. Common sense is what tells you to get a Ph.D. in the first place.......


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by whatzgoingon:
But you would rather keep portraying blacks as victims who can't achieve because the mighty white people won't let us. Instead of trying to fix issues that are at the core of some of our problems ALONG with the racist element of this society, you want to look at racism as the SOLE cause of everything that is wrong within community. It seem the establishment, for all the ills in our community and are afraid of looking closely at our problems less you find out that what the whites said is true, black people are dumb and can't make it without the white man's support. I honestly believe this is what is in the bottom of the hearts of some of these liberal, oh it's not your fault, it's society's fault, it's the white man's fault, it's the media's fault, etc, etc. This drives me just as nuts as the black ultra conservatives like Lofton who believe that blacks are essentially worthless and have only achieved what we have because of white society, and they are exception to the rule. Neither of you really believe in us!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is what I have been saying all along. These types have an excuse for everything that's wrong instead of looking where the problem actually lies. If this is the case then the problem will never be solved. The first step for an person with a substance abuse problem, be it alcohol or drugs, to address their problem is to admit they have one. If you cannot admit to having a problem, it will never be soleved. I really do not think Mr. Lofton is anti-black. I think he is frustrated from dealing with put down artists like Kevin41, et al. JMO, Mr. Lofton can speak very well for himself.

**Tell me where I used racism as an excuse EXCLSIVELY like you people like to portray....and tell me that you were able to overlook all the volumes I have written in regards to blacks attaining education and learning normal socialization of children as a basis for changing social conditions....you people are a trip in terms of what you choose to overlook.....find where in the f-k i eluded to racism as the sole problem of black people.....show your own damn comprehension skills in terms of what point you saw that in my posts....

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by whatzgoingon:
YOU are the one who originally compared me to Lofton and other people you disagree with, with no basis at all except that I disagreed with your worldview, which is where I lost most of my respect for your opinions. It seems to you, if it doesn't sound the same, it must be counter-productive. Every one of your posts directed toward me have been full of generalizations and opinion laden rhetoric and you have not produced ONE fact in the entire dialogue, so don't ask of me what you are not willing to do yourself. Go back and read them if you don't believe me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, again you are exhibiting the same frustrations that I've had with this person. He is a master at twisting what you post, deliberately mis-interpreting your opinions, ah yes, of course the personal attacks, and un-substantiated allegations......When I asked him to produce substantiation he once told me to go find it myself!!! Usually he would come back with personal attacks, putdowns, all sorts of things he could not prove even if he wanted to. But the thing that's always amazed me about him is what he is a master of, he accuses others of doing.......

*** Like I explained earlier....disagree with what you like but substantiate it.....do not come in here with vague rhetoric and think it will supercede facts..............and if you think your post is being twisted, learn to articulate more clearly and you may not have that problem......


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by whatzgoingon:
though I am sure you will twist them somehow to misinterpret it as me claiming that racism doesn't exists or some of your other totally baseless, opinion laden, simplistic black or white views of me, as you have done in previous posts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


LOL!!! Gee Kev, a lot of people pick up on your tactics!!! LOL!!! Where's TBWT when you need it!!!! Oh yes, he used to blatantly lie and get caught!!! Thanks, Kev!!!


***** Save the orgasm dude and read my post that rebutted such nonsense.....You people imply on other's behalf....I make direct statements and if they are not repeated verbatum, then it is just some shit YOU said..........


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
but when you refute me, stick to the topic and use my exact words...not YOUR version of what I said...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I am actually Laughing Out Loud reading this. This man is a professional victim if I have ever seen one for sure!!!! My first encounter with him on TBWT he came out with personal attacks, insults, etc, I thought at first it was a joke, it turned out this is his style!! I mean, it got so bad for him, he even wished harm on my family!!!!


**Let me ask you MOM, what in my life as I have described it makes YOU think i'm a victim or what is it I have said about my travels,accomplishments and upbringing is indicative of someone who was victimized? Do not get that confused with efforts of those who intended to victimize me but did not succeed. Please answer specifically where I indicated that........

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
i know PhD's whose parents were sharecroppers...the epitome of social progress....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And yes, so do I, and they did this over 100 years ago without any assistance from the government you so love (that's the epitome of social progress!!!). They did it on their own accord, as I'm sure the people you know did. I am boldong this so you will not be able to twist what I just stated.


*** Yes but did they do it as widespread as in the time where EQUAL opportunity was ATTEMPTED....or do you think blacks are supposed to have to acheive under the burden of jim crow to get theirs like they had to 100 years ago? Are you saying that should be the natural operating environment for black people?(jim crow conditions).....are black people actually SUPPOSED to have a burden of being black....or do you think they did not back then?.........please answer specifically

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
I can speak on my own behalf....so unless you extract my direct post as what I say or think.....you are just participating in biased speculation...plain and simple.......so I do not have a problem with anyone in here...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


People like myself have always done this with you. Remember on TBWT, I did this, ramses357 (remember him???) did this?? It pissed you off, I'm sure you don't remember. Put you said that the basic style of debating was a "biitch tactic". So "there you go again". Suggesting that someone go to a style of debating which you couldn't stand before. You simply amaze me!!!!


***No I said men using sarcastic azz female language to avoid facts was bitch-like in nature...and it still is....even though lots of black men wear earrings bigger than their girl's...........and have normalized allot of female tendacies based on the fact that they being brought up by females.......and never learn what a man is like in their developmental years........i understand their behavior.....they do not know what it is to be totally masculine in their demeanor.....



But, Kev, don't you always participate in biased speculation?? Even when it was suggested that you extract exactly what was posted?? But you never did that. It was much easier for you to twist, speculate, insult, put down, "I have a PhD, I'm so smart, you just a self hating azz who needs to be educated, etc, etc, etc" You get the point, I'm sure!!! I can see, Kev, you haven't changed one iota!!!

***No MOM (Independent Man).....you dismissed the works of reknown black academics as partisan BS....remember the JBHE timeline about the conservative (just like you claim you are) efforts to end affirmative action...and the resultant drops in black college enrollment.......that you dismissed as biased nonsense....oh how we forget.....I gave you a factual graphic and you looked the other way....what a black man!!!!! And a PhD. doesn't mean the world, but you just have to tell that to self-hating black people who think all blacks have limited comprehension skills like the stereotypes white promote and they worship......you have to give them a point of reference to overcome their inherent black inadequacy......trust me.......


Now this a kicker!!!! LOL!!!!!


***No THAT was the kicker I mentioned above.................


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
you told me about myself without refuting my points...stay off of the personal aspects of the discussion and damn what I do in terms of those who disagree with me...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



whatz, you did a superb job in refuting his points and you did not get personal. You were merely responding to the personal attacks he leveled on you, and you were very professional about it. Kudos to you for it and being just 25!!! Maybe the 40 something "professor" can learn a thing or two from you!!! AHHHHH, what am I saying, he has a PhD, he knows everything. He couldn't possibly learn anything from people he sees that he's above!!! He is the most pompous, arrogant person I have encountered on any internet forum!! It's a wonder that he holds Jesse Jackson and Bill Clinton in such high regard....he's just like them!!!!

***naw bro....all he did was gibe HIS opinions......and I don't know everything...unlike you MOM, i've learned how little I do know...but still allot compare to others who think they do....but I still need to continue my education....formally and informally.......like the rest of the race does.......and those were not personal attacks....just a request of him to explain why he finds the facts soooo wrong......

Continue you objective posts on this forum. I know you will not agree with a lot of my views, that's ok. But I wanted to tell you that you are a much needed breath of fresh air on the board!!!!!

You will go very far in life, keep up the EXCELLENT WORK!!!!!

*** I agree, the brother will probably go far...but that has nothing to do with right now......and the issues that we are discussing..........hell, black conservatives ( the real azz lickers) go far also....by working against the best interest of their own race....is that something to be proud of? Ward thinks so......

MOM (Independent Man), i'm glad you are back in action......but in light of the raised unemployment level of blacks and YOUR president filing a brief for a policy that i can clearly demonstrate as limiting black educational opportunity...and a war that was unjust and uncalled for and a country that is in a state of shambles.....do you still sing the praise of old white conservative racists that successfully limited the lives of your parents and mine via jim crow? Can you actually finally explain how conservatism is good for black folks?........I hope so for your sake bro..................
Independent Man posted,


I am actually Laughing Out Loud reading this. This man is a professional victim if I have ever seen one for sure!!!! My first encounter with him on TBWT he came out with personal attacks, insults, etc, I thought at first it was a joke, it turned out this is his style!! I mean, it got so bad for him, he even wished harm on my family!!!!

*** Yeah...remember where you wanted to find out what college I worked at and wanted to forward my posts like a biitch...and when me and another brother told you guys end up missing for that kinda schit, you then went into the victim mode and eluded to calling the police? Wow....all that for a post in a forum....what a brave man.... Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Lofton:

I don't have to go there, meaning PW, the American Republicans, etc., because most everything here is already being seen elsewhere. You did it all by yourself, which does not include my input.


Uh...Lofton,

I've seen no indication that anybody from P&P follows your links over here to see what you are trying to show people, except for me and ocaisionaly VDiamond.

As for everythingblack.com, the post of yours that I responded to there is one that you made just today. Except for that post, you haven't posted there since June. You only have 4 threads there in all, I believe.

But don't worry, Lofton. I'm still supporting the recall at P&P, and I'm still going to vote for you as Governor of P&P.

Just keep making those links, Lofton!

One Big Forum!!!
Support the recall!!!
Vote Lofton 2004 for Governor of P&P!!!
A Man of Vision!!! The Man With the Plan!!!
Make P&P the Portal to the World Wide Forum (WWF)!!!



Illegal, noun:

A term used by the descendents of European Immigrants to refer to descendants of Native Americans


Plowshares Actions
The Nuclear Resister
School of the Americas Watch


Cauca, Colombia


quote:
But wait, according to your belief, which is truly a misnomer, Ghettopoly only applies to the underclass, meaning gangmembers, whinos, pimps, the poverty stricken, whores, welfare recipients, carjackers, to the curb drug addicts, felons, prison inmates, Bubba the Booty Bandit's sexual partner, rapists, child molesters, etc.!

LOFTY! Tell me why those gud White folks are crying about their "American" jobs being taken by American companies taking "their" jobs overseas?

Now, tell me who's being PIMPED!

Tell me who is being PIMPED when those gud White folks happily march to war for their Flag and Country and only the Elite and well connected reap the benefits of No-Bid contracts while them poor patriotic gud White folks' sons die for a war concocted with false pretenses...

Ahh... the National Debt!! Who's being PIMPED!? Universal Health care! Who's being PIMPED!?

Anyway... YOU ARE INCAPABLE OF ANSWERING SIMPLE QUESTIONS...

Tell me how any member here or rather how you know any of us don't:
A. Obey the law.

What laws do you know any of us have broken? How do you know how "moral" we are? How many of us do you know personally to make such judgements?

And what the HELL is this about?
C. Do under others as you would expect them to do under you.

UNTO??? Was that what you meant to say or are you on some other trip?

ACCORDING TO MY BELIEF...
You don't know how I regard Ghettopoly and who I think it applies to.

Sorry... LOFTY!!
I'm not into generalizations like that so I don't and wouldn't be assigning any behaviors as indicative of the Black "underclass", "middle-class" or whatever.

Just be a man and say you are RACIST and think ALL Black people engage in self-destructive behaviors quit trying to act like you're making a serious intellectual point.

BTW... What class are you in? You claim to be Black! So isn't your ass in a class that's authentically Ghettopoly Fabulous?

LOFTON is GHETTO!! LOFTON IS GHETTO!! Big Grin
I knew that's why you felt so comfortable on that corner in them high-heels with them fish-nets on! winkgrin
LOFTON POSTED,

Ghettopoly only applies to the underclass, meaning gangmembers, whinos, pimps, the poverty stricken, whores, welfare recipients, carjackers, to the curb drug addicts, felons, prison inmates, Bubba the Booty Bandit's sexual partner, rapists, child molesters, etc.!



***So Lofton, the poverty stricken and welfare recipients are lumped in as a undesirable sector of society huh? They have a stigma based on their unfortunate situations according to you...man what the f-k is your problem?....hell someone in your family may have needed aid before or was poverty stricken....you really sound like a punk azz white racist fool at this point......
Well Kevin41,

....I see you haven't missed a beat, with your pompous, profane, how did you make it to being a university professor,....who more than likely teaches at Southwest J.C. Be truthful for once, there is not a reader on this board or any other board who would hold it against you for admitting that you are not that highly rated professor that you profess to be.

MOM cased it right, you are pompous, arrogant, Dr. do Little discombobulated fake wouldn't have you teaching my canine how to roll over on his back, excuse for a professor.

As for welfare, even in poverty, homeless, etc., nobody in my family has ever been interested in welfare, because more so than not, the greedy instead of the needy get assisted.

Slim chance that anyone in poverty would be living in the suburbia, without a heavy dose of welfare subsistance. This being said, there is more of a chance that such an individual would live in the Ghetto. This is not to say, that any such individual is criminal, because prosperity is not guaranteed to anyone. Ghettopoly covers a lot of territory, meaning it is a game based on life in the Ghetto! Maybe this is the problem the so-called Black middle class are ashamed of where they came from, so much so that they refuse to invest in improving the quality of life in the hood. Heck, if the Irish, the Jews, the Hispanics, etc., can turn a Ghetto into an affluent community Black people can too. Heck, East Los Angeles used to be that barrio through, and through, but look at it now, and the visitor would be highly impressed. Black people, including the Black middle just choose to trash their own community. This being the mindset, slim chance exists that Black people will ever move forward as opposed to taking huge steps backwards.

Even at the point of starvation there is absolutely nothing that any social welfare program can do for me, except make a bad situation worse! Heck, to qualify one must sell his or her soul for funds that won't make ends meet.

A married woman can have any other male, but she must get rid of her husband to quality for welfare benefits. This reality most surely proves that Social Welfare is indeed a part of Ghettopoly.

...as for Nmaginate, sounds to me like you have a guilty conscience. So you are in essence saying on you own accord that you are a real to life example of Ghettopoly!

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 14, 2003 at 09:47 PM.]
Kev,

Your quote: "Where in the f-k do you keep getting at the point where I see blacks as victims?"

My quote: "Since you got your PhD before you were 35, research theories called "Chosen Trauma "or "Learned Helplessness "or "Image Theory" Read them carefully, though I am sure you will twist them somehow to misinterpret it as me claiming that racism doesn't exists or some of your other totally baseless, opinion laden, simplistic black or white views of me, as you have done in previous posts."

Since you want facts and can't seem to understand why I keep saying that you are trying to turn the black community into perpetual victims please read again what I posted last time and follow directions. That is, unless you really want to continue this pointless bickering and don't really want to learn something that may alter your perceptions. I will take time our to go home and get my books and give you titles, authors, theories and journals where you can read about these theories but since you got your PhD before you were 35 and are an academic, I didn't think it would be such a problem in obtaining this info. I must warn you though, most of the theories don't use the black community as their primary example, so you may have to think objectively and creatively to make it make sense with out community's issues, but I assume because you got a PhD at 35, you should be able to handle it. Then again . . .

Lets start with this, because addressing the other stuff you posts and going back and linking your posts that highlight your behavior towards others and me takes up too much space an getting off topic. I will get to it a little later.

You know Kev, many people have disagreed with me on this board, but it is only you and one other poster that has disrespected me with your unsubstantiated, broad, generalizing comments, and this is why you keep getting it with both barrels.

Let's not forget how this latest back and forth between us got started:

Your quote: "what the hell makes you think blacks are so simple that f-king entertainers are heroes?"

I'm still waiting for the facts to back up this stupid ass comment. Did you say it because you meant it or because you saw my handle and wanted to cause some trouble? And I'm supposed to think you are an authority on what's going in the black community?

Do some reading so you and get some of those facts you say you want and get back to me.
LOFTON...

You are a REAL-TO-LIFE LOSER!!!

You're NOT intelligent! You're psychoatic! You're a weirdo! You're a chump who can't back up a word you say!

You're a broken record!

You a real to life walking POSTER BOY for the American Psychological Society's "Mental Disorders of the 21st Century"!!

You a freakin' JOKE! Maybe one day someone with some intelligence and no deep-seated racist, insecure animous against Black people will validate you. Lord knows that the whole point of you dragging AA.org into almost every conversation you have on other websites.

You want someone to say he Lofton,
"You're good enough..." Big Grin
"You're smart enough..." Big Grin Big Grin
"And, DAMMIT, people like you!" broscream
bs
(you know none of that is true! lol But keep on saying to yourself... maybe you eventually feel good about yourself.)

Now LOFTON...
Don't go out and commit any hate crimes because "you're being picked on"! You have never backed away from a fight... Yeah, we know!! You punk ass always took off RUNNING straight forward.

Why did you make Carl Lewis jealous? (Punk ass!)

You keep acting like my grade school classmate that said he was a "Black Russian" - aka Crusher Kruchev-Diddy! - during the Reagan years when he thought there was going to be certain NUKE-KLEE-URR war and wanted to side with the Big Bad "Evil Empire"...

You freakin' bum! Take yourself back to LOSERS-R-US.com where the padded rooms are custom made! Eek

Mann... LOFTY, you are too entertaining. I hope you win the P&P recall! Will Gary Coleman or A. Huffington be your running (emphasis on RUNNING) mate! Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
*Yeah i was more hostile in terms of how expressive I was of my resentment of black conservatives (house negroes)...until I learned that they are forever in awe of white people and can not be rehabilitated.....i'm kool now....i just feel sorry for ya'll.......

rotflmao

You were hostile because facts and substantiation were always provided and you could not refute it. This is why people like you become hostile and insulting. I'm not in "awe" of white people at all. No need to feel sorry for me. I can compete with any white person, or black, or Asian, etc. Thank you very much!!!


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
***Yeah, that is what people who do not have the balls to put in the work say to discredit those who have put in waaay more work. That is crystal clear to see through. Common sense is what tells you to get a Ph.D. in the first place....... bs

rotflmao

I have seen many people at work and in the university who have Ph.Ds and cannot walk and chew gum at the same time. So your assertion is completely wrong. Book smarts and common sense are competely mutually exclusive.


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
**Tell me where I used racism as an excuse EXCLSIVELY like you people like to portray....and tell me that you were able to overlook all the volumes I have written in regards to blacks attaining education and learning normal socialization of children as a basis for changing social conditions....you people are a trip in terms of what you choose to overlook.....find where in the f-k i eluded to racism as the sole problem of black people.....show your own damn comprehension skills in terms of what point you saw that in my posts.... bs



Not only are YOUR comprehension skills lacking, but also YOUR memory. This is throughout most of your posts. Anyone with a 3rd grade reading level would be able to decipher this. I too, have also pointed specifically here and at TBWT of cases where blacks attained high education and were for all practical purposes, middle class, in the late 1800's, early 1900s without any of the policies that you hold so dear and you insulted me and out down what I was saying. You really need to grow up, Kev, it's time.


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
*** Like I explained earlier....disagree with what you like but substantiate it.....do not come in here with vague rhetoric and think it will supercede facts..............and if you think your post is being twisted, learn to articulate more clearly and you may not have that problem...... bs

I do have opinions, like everyone else. But I do provide substantiation in the form of articles, statistics, and I will even post the URL where I obtained the information. But Kev, most people in here whether they agree with me or not, will be able to figure out what I am saying. It is really ONLY YOU who twists what I, and others whom you disagree with, are posting. So it's not a matter of my articulation, it is either a) your reading comprehension, or b) Your agenda, folks like you have the tendency to attack the messenger when you encounter facts you do not like, that's what liberalism is all about, or c) all of the above


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
***** Save the orgasm dude and read my post that rebutted such nonsense.....You people imply on other's behalf....I make direct statements and if they are not repeated verbatum, then it is just some shit YOU said.......... bs

rotflmao

Not having an orgasm, Kev, just stating a FACT. I don't imply on other people behalf. I state this is what I think te=hey mean, but they would be able to better explain it themselves.


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
**Let me ask you MOM, what in my life as I have described it makes YOU think i'm a victim or what is it I have said about my travels,accomplishments and upbringing is indicative of someone who was victimized? Do not get that confused with efforts of those who intended to victimize me but did not succeed. Please answer specifically where I indicated that........


It's throughout all your posts, Kev. That's what I cannot figure out. With all you have accomplished, you still seem to be a very angry, bitter man. This is the vibe I get from your posts, even your posts when discussing with people with whom your are in agreement with!!! Not saying it is, but it's just the feeling I get. And in my travels and experiences, people who are angry and bitter treat and talk to people the same way you do, regardless of ethnicity.
You see Kev, I am very content and secure within myself. So contrary to what you may believe, I am not out to prove to whites that I am different or whatever. I don't care what whites think or anyone else. I am going to be who I want to be. This is why I keep coming back!!!


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
*** Yes but did they do it as widespread as in the time where EQUAL opportunity was ATTEMPTED....or do you think blacks are supposed to have to acheive under the burden of jim crow to get theirs like they had to 100 years ago? Are you saying that should be the natural operating environment for black people?(jim crow conditions).....are black people actually SUPPOSED to have a burden of being black....or do you think they did not back then?.........please answer specifically


See, this is where you have blantantly twisted what I have said previously. You know yourself that I NEVER defended Jim Crow, or any sort of discrimination, NEVER!!! What I DID say is that many blacks were achieving under these adverse conditions AND if it could be done so then, it can be done TODAY. You know as well as I do that it is much easier today. This is what I said, and you know it!!! But you see, the people who achieved 100 years ago, took a personal and moral responsiblity upon themselves, something that is lacking in many black communities today. This is what you do not like. You would rather BLAME society for these ills, which as I have stated to you MANY, MANY times before, society does play a part, but not in the way you belive. Let's be honest, Kev!!!!


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
***No MOM (Independent Man).....you dismissed the works of reknown black academics as partisan BS....remember the JBHE timeline about the conservative (just like you claim you are) efforts to end affirmative action...and the resultant drops in black college enrollment.......that you dismissed as biased nonsense....oh how we forget.....I gave you a factual graphic and you looked the other way....what a black man!!!!! And a PhD. doesn't mean the world, but you just have to tell that to self-hating black people who think all blacks have limited comprehension skills like the stereotypes white promote and they worship......you have to give them a point of reference to overcome their inherent black inadequacy......trust me....... bs


Kev, I read you posts on JBHE and I find it very informing. But they do have a leftist slant. But there's also some good information and statistics conatined within that I would not be able to refute.

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
MOM (Independent Man), i'm glad you are back in action......but in light of the raised unemployment level of blacks and YOUR president filing a brief for a policy that i can clearly demonstrate as limiting black educational opportunity...and a war that was unjust and uncalled for and a country that is in a state of shambles.....do you still sing the praise of old white conservative racists that successfully limited the lives of your parents and mine via jim crow? Can you actually finally explain how conservatism is good for black folks?........I hope so for your sake bro..................


Thanks Kev!! First of all, like I have said many times, I am not a Bush supporter, not now, not yesterday, not tomorrow. So I don't know where you keep getting this from. I oppossed the war with Iraq, and I think we should get the hell out of there ASAP!!!
Yes I will explain how conservatism is good, not only for blacks, but everyone!!! I will keep it short.
-- personal responsibility. A person makes choices and what happens for the most part is based on the coices a person makes.

-- Moral responsiblity which includes a strong family. The decline of the black family has been more so since the advent of liberal social programs in the late '60s. This is a fact.

Liberalism says that people are not responsible for their actions. Liberalism says it's immoral to be moral. There's no such thing as a right and wrong. Liberalism is destruction. I don't have time to go into exquisite detail.

No Kev, most of those white conservatives you keep trying to link me with are dead. Many of them were Democrats. This is one reason why it took the GOP to pass the Civil Rights Act '64, more Republicans voted for it than did Democrats. This is a FACT.

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
*** Yeah...remember where you wanted to find out what college I worked at and wanted to forward my posts like a biitch...and when me and another brother told you guys end up missing for that kinda schit, you then went into the victim mode and eluded to calling the police? Wow....all that for a post in a forum....what a brave man.... bs bs bs

rotflmao
Well Kev I repeatedly told you that it would not be my style to turn you in. But obviously, you have something to hide because if you didn't, you wouldn't have responded in the way you did. As much as I disagree with ricardomath, I have respect for him. He posted his name, address, phone number and his university some time ago (I haven't posted much, but I still read). He has nothing to hide. I am not requesting you do the same.
Well Kev, I don't take threats against me lightly. Try making a threat like you did at an airport, even before 9/11, and see what happens. Anyway, it was rather comical to see you punk out and backtrack!! I wish I had that link!!!!

from another topic.....
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
and as so far as that jj johanson fool.....who gives a f-k if he doesn't want to be black....he's just baggage to the race....because he espouses that house negro shit and gets rubbed on the head.....and creates problems for other blacks who would break your f-king hand when one tries to rub them on the head.......hell, when a black person works on an organization with skinnin grinnin buck-dancing negroes, it becomes a problem when HE is not like them.......whites want to label you as having a bad attitude or being a bad employee....even though you are more qualified than them and the skinnin grinnin negroes......blacks like jj are lazy negroes who do not want to benefit from hard work...so they compromise their dignity and place themselves under whites like small puppies and get morsel hand-outs as their rewards.........I don't see how you pro-white types look at yourselves in the mirror without hating what you see.....well, you do.......
rotflmao
Nope, you may disagree with JJ Johnson, but he's not lazy. He's actually the CEO of the Sierra Times.
I got a laugh out of the skinn grinn buck-dancing negroes....That was funny!!!! But I sense this was laden with personal experience. So I see YOU were labeled with having a bad attitude...somehow I'm not surprised!!!! If you are in life the way you are on this forum, then you would be seen as a difficult person who is hard to get along with. But of course that's not your problem, it's always someone elses problem. Perhaps those people were as you stated. I don't know. I would gather to say that they were merely trying to get along. And since in life you are known by the company you keep, they most likely didn't want to associate with you. It doesn't matter how smart one is, if they cannot get along with people and have a negative, bad attitude, then it's counter-productive to keep them in the organization.

@ Vox
Hey man, thanks!!! (from another topic). Congrats on your Juris Doctor!!!!
But.....
The reason why I brought up Metzger, etc was because of the kinds of comments that Kev made....
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
White racists can always turn things around and get dumb apologist negroes to think in a way that makes them more controllable......no where is it mentioned what the remedy for observing and measuring things that occur by race. So despite all of that bullshiit rhetotic by the racist inbreds, how do you measure the effectiveness of outreach programs, targeted medical care for illnesses that disproportionately affect certain ethinicities and the level of inclusion or exclusion to a particular social entity based on race?

So it wasn't that I was trying to prove that opposition to Prop54 was bad because they supported it, I was trying to show that white racists did in fact oppose it as well.

Also on the Confederacy....I can't recall defending the Confederacy, I'm not saying I didn't, but what I did say was that I was not going to let that flag bother me. Most of the reason why neo-confederates want to fly the flag because they know it will piss blacks off. If you show them thay you're not affected by the flag, you have basically won the battle, and after a while it will not be an issue. This is where I think I was coming from.

I know we don't agree on some things, but also agree on some things, I have much respect for you.

thumbsup

[This message was edited by IndependentMan on October 14, 2003 at 10:04 AM.]
MOM posted,

Well Kev, I don't take threats against me lightly. Try making a threat like you did at an airport, even before 9/11, and see what happens. Anyway, it was rather comical to see you punk out and backtrack!! I wish I had that link!!!!


***Listen ....quit lying so gotdamn much....nobody threatened you.....me and this other brother said that people like you usually end up missing or found in a dumpster for atttempting to ruin the lives of others.....and no one backtracked on schit.....that statement STILL stands....they do still find that type in dumpsters or they end up missing....nothing has changed......so why in the f-k are you trying to present me as doing something as dumb as making a threat....give me some credit...if that were the case, who would announce it and give the person a chance to circumvent it? Now THAT is not common sense......


As so far as Prop54, I think in terms of what BLACK people desire.....I do not care what white people think and they have no bearing on my decisions..i make my own decisions plain and simple. Why is it the majority of blacks opposed it for the racial assessment reasons? Are they dumb? Please explain....It seems as if you black conservatives run counter to the majority of blacks on every issue...why is that?



And as so far as in life, I deal with people in a likewise manner....go figure.....I give people what they give me, just more of it....good or bad...


And as so far as thinking you are qualified to paint some psychological profile....save that schit....it is a waste of your time...and as so far as that common sense thing....well it is too bad that there are sooo many poor people with common sense only (whatever in the hell that is) and many many people living and doing much better with their book sense.......like I said, people who make that statement usually not packing much book sense so they try to mask the fact under some nebulous auspice called "common sense".....to each his own......but common sense doesn't seem to lift people from poverty.....because there is not such a thing....sense is sense.....because even the things we deal with informally had to be taught...and even if informally, there was still a book around to explain it....


Read the post about liberalism and inclusive policies.....I'm not giving a f-k about the morals of others.....I have them and was raised with them....people's value systems are a matter of personal choice....so I do not emulate the white man's self-righteous GOD complex and try to dictate to others what they should do or think.....I can just explain my justification for my own actions.


Once again, the conversation has gotten off of the policy issues...like Prop 54, there was never an explanation of the benefits of supporting it......just some personal take that dismisses the things that I listed such as measurement and awareness of distinct forms of racism practiced and proven to exist.....but I never expect an answer....just a diversion. You people are great at skirting direct questions



You really twisted that GOP and CRA of 64 thing around.....so why did black people become Dems widespread if the GOP passed it? That is a direct question because you are making it sound like blacks are illogical. please explain......directly..like I asked you to do with Prop 54.

You explained conservatism as good for blacks under the same premise that the pro-black nationalists do......try describing it from an operational standpoint. TRY to make a legislative comparison where beneficial things were passed on behalf of blacks by other blacks or sponsored by a conservative black...it has never happened and never will. Plus another direct question : Why is it the majority of black people do not embrace that racist nonsense at all? Is the race that dumb as a majority not to know what is in its best interest? Why is it when there are measurable adverse outcomes for blacks you conservs still support it? Please explain because i'm trying to figure out the Uncle Thom-as(es) and the Connerlys.......
Ah Kev, if TBWT was up, I could prove that you are in fact a documented LIAR, but it's not, so onto other things.

Also Kev, when someone says some of the things that you have such as "people end up missing for...", that is a threat, perhaps not in your mind, but legally it can be construed as a threat. Oh yes, you punked out like a bitch!!! It was HILARIOUS!!! "I got waaay to much goin for me than to...., I wouldn't really do anything like that...etc" You were all BIG and BAD prior!!!
rotflmao


It's old news about Civil Rights '64, I have not twisted anything. I think it's your convoluted mind that's twisted!!! LOL!
quote:
Orginally posted by Kevin41:
You really twisted that GOP and CRA of 64 thing around.....so why did black people become Dems widespread if the GOP passed it? That is a direct question because you are making it sound like blacks are illogical. please explain......directly..like I asked you to do with Prop 54.



Here are the FACTS you asked for, Kev.

The civil-rights bill of 1964 was enacted with strong bipartisan and bi-ideological (conservative and liberal) support. But, the credit for the civil-rights victory has gone almost exclusively to liberals and Democrats, particularly to Senator Hubert Humphrey (D, Minn.) in Congress, and to Presidents Kennedy and Johnson. However, much of the hard work of advancing the legislation was done by congressional Republicans "” conservative stalwarts including Everett McKinley Dirksen of Illinois, Charles Halleck of Indiana, William McCulloch of Ohio, Robert Griffin of Michigan, Robert Taft Jr. of Ohio, Clarence Brown of Ohio, Roman Hruska of Nebraska, and moderates such as Thomas Kuchel of California, Kenneth Keating of New York, and Clark MacGregor of Minnesota. All of these Republicans served as major leaders of the pro-civil-rights coalition either as floor managers or captains for different sections of the bill.

Although the Democrats controlled both houses of the Congress at the time, a much-higher percentage of Republicans than Democrats supported the civil-rights bill. For example, in the House, Republicans voted for civil rights by a margin of 79 percent to 21 percent, 136-35. The Democrats' margin was 153-91 or 63 percent to 37 percent.

However, the single-most-important vote for the legislation was the attempt to cut off the anti-civil-rights filibuster in the Senate. In order for the bill to pass, civil-rights supporters needed two thirds of the Senate to break a filibuster by the opposition. Republicans voted overwhelmingly to break the filibuster by 81.8 percent (27-6), but only 65.7 percent of the Democrats voted to end the filibuster (44-23). Thus, if only Republicans in the Congress had voted, any potential filibuster would easily have been overridden. But, if only Democrats had voted, the pro-civil-rights forces would not have been able to obtain the necessary two/thirds vote to break the filibuster and the civil-rights bill would have died. No Republicans in Congress, no civil-rights bill "” it is as simple as that.

Only a handful of Republicans opposed the civil-rights bill. The most prominent among them was Senator Barry Goldwater of Arizona, who became the party's presidential candidate in 1964. Interestingly, Goldwater had always been a strong supporter of racial equality and supported the Eisenhower civil-rights bills of 1957 and 1960 that strengthened voting rights for African Americans. As Lee Edwards noted in The Conservative Revolution: "As chief of staff of the Arizona National Guard he [Goldwater] had pushed for desegregation of the guard two years before President Truman desegregated the U.S. armed forces." Goldwater stated that workforce discrimination was "morally wrong," but worried that in the future the federal government might "require people to discriminate on the basis of color or race or religion" and, thus, in the end, opposed the bill.


As far as blacks and Democrats, that started in the '30s with the New Deal. But it was the Presidencies of JFK and LBJ that solidified Democratic support, particularly with LBJs signings of Civil Rights '64 and Voting Rights '65. But without getting thru both Houses of Congress, the bill never would've arrived on his desk to be signed.

There Kev, I always seem to answer you questions and without the personal speculations that you always respond with.

quote:
Orginally posted by Kevin41:
As so far as Prop54, I think in terms of what BLACK people desire.....I do not care what white people think and they have no bearing on my decisions..i make my own decisions plain and simple. Why is it the majority of blacks opposed it for the racial assessment reasons? Are they dumb? Please explain....It seems as if you black conservatives run counter to the majority of blacks on every issue...why is that?

You just contradcited yourself here...AGAIN. In one breath you say that you think in terms of what black people desire (Stalinist group think), then go onto say that you make your own decisions. So which is it?? Either you make your own decisions, or you base them on what the group thinks as a whole. They are mutually exclusive.
No they are not dumb, just mis-informed because of the manipulation of the left, the media, and black "leaders".

Since you are soo ignorant on Prop54, let's step through it and see what in it that you object too.

CLASSIFICATION BY RACE, ETHNICITY, COLOR, OR NATIONAL ORIGIN. INITIATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT.
Effective January 1, 2005, prohibits state, local governments from using race, ethnicity, color or national origin to classify current or prospective students, contractors, or employees in public education, contracting or employment operations. Does not prohibit classification by sex. Prohibition also covers persons subject to other operations of government unless Legislature finds compelling state interest, authorizes by two-thirds of each house, and Governor approves. "Classifying" defined as separating, sorting, or organizing persons or personal data. Exemptions include: law enforcement descriptions; prisoner and undercover assignments; action taken to maintain federal funding. Summary of estimate by Legislative Analyst and Director of Finance of fiscal impact on state and local governments: This measure would have a major fiscal impact of annual state savings potentially ranging from several million dollars in excess of $10 million beginning in 2015. Prohibition Against Classifying by Race by State and Other Public Entities
Section 32 is added to Article I of the California Constitution as follows:

Sec. 32. (a) The state shall not classify any individual by race, ethnicity, color or national origin in the operation of public education, public contracting or public employment.

(b) The state shall not classify any individual by race, ethnicity, color or national origin in the operation of any other state operations, unless the legislature specifically determines that said classification serves a compelling state interest and approves said classification by a 2/3 majority in both houses of the legislature, and said classification is subsequently approved by the governor.

(c) For purposes of this section, "classifying" by race, ethnicity, color or national origin shall be defined as the act of separating, sorting or organizing by race, ethnicity, color or national origin including, but not limited to, inquiring, profiling, or collecting such data on government forms.

(d) For purposes of subsection (a), "individual" refers to current or prospective students, contractors or employees. For purposes of subsection (b), "individual" refers to persons subject to the state operations referred to in subsection (b).

(e) The Department of Fair Employment and Housing (DFEH) shall be exempt from this section with respect to DFEH-conducted classifications in place as of March 5, 2002.
(1) Unless specifically extended by the legislature, this exemption shall expire ten years after the effective date of this measure.
(2) Notwithstanding DFEH's exemption from this section, DFEH shall not impute a race, color, ethnicity or national origin to any individual.


(f) Otherwise lawful classification of medical research subjects and patients shall be exempt from this section.

(g) Nothing in this section shall prevent law enforcement officers, while carrying out their law enforcement duties, from describing particular persons in otherwise lawful ways. Neither the governor, the legislature nor any statewide agency shall require law enforcement officers to maintain records that track individuals on the basis of said classifications, nor shall the governor, the legislature or any statewide agency withhold funding to law enforcement agencies on the basis of the failure to maintain such records.

(h) Otherwise lawful assignment of prisoners and undercover law enforcement officers shall be exempt from this section.

(i) Nothing in this section shall be interpreted as prohibiting action which must be taken to comply with federal law, or establish or maintain eligibility for any federal program, where ineligibility would result in a loss of federal funds to the state.

(j) Nothing in this section shall be interpreted as invalidating any valid consent decree or court order which is in force as of the effective date of this section.

(k) For the purposes of this section, "state" shall include, but not necessarily be limited to, the state itself, any city, county, city and county, public university system, including the University of California, California State University, community college district, school district, special district, or any other political subdivision or governmental instrumentality of or within the state.

(l) This section shall become effective January 1, 2005.

(m) This section shall be self-executing. If any part or parts of this section are found to be in conflict with federal law or the United States Constitution, the section shall be implemented to the maximum extent that federal law and the United States Constitution permit. Any provision held invalid shall be severable from the remaining portions of this section.
---------------------------------------------
In accordance to debating, line item and explain your objections.

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
You explained conservatism as good for blacks under the same premise that the pro-black nationalists do......try describing it from an operational standpoint. TRY to make a legislative comparison where beneficial things were passed on behalf of blacks by other blacks or sponsored by a conservative black...it has never happened and never will. Plus another direct question : Why is it the majority of black people do not embrace that racist nonsense at all? Is the race that dumb as a majority not to know what is in its best interest? Why is it when there are measurable adverse outcomes for blacks you conservs still support it? Please explain because i'm trying to figure out the Uncle Thom-as(es) and the Connerlys.......

Not everything can and will come from the government!!! I know you don't understand this. Part of what is being a conservative is less dependency from the government and more reliance on ones self. This is where it has to start, NOT FROM THE GOVERNMENT!!! Your leftist mindset is that everything is legislated from the government, this is why taxes do not bother most on this board. State ways don't change folk ways. Get it?? Probably not.

What racist nonsense are you refering to, Kev?? Prop 54?? I just posted the principles of Prop 54, please state the racist points in it and back it up with substantiation, not your personal rhetoric.

One more thing, Kev, no you did NOT prove Connerly benefitted from AA. What you did was post articles from the New York Times and San Francisco Chronicle, hardly objective news sources, and even in those articles their information was circumstantial. Not unless you can produce the actual document from whatever agency that handles those things, your information is circumstantial.

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
And as so far as thinking you are qualified to paint some psychological profile....save that schit....it is a waste of your time...and as so far as that common sense thing....well it is too bad that there are sooo many poor people with common sense only (whatever in the hell that is) and many many people living and doing much better with their book sense.......like I said, people who make that statement usually not packing much book sense so they try to mask the fact under some nebulous auspice called "common sense".....to each his own......but common sense doesn't seem to lift people from poverty.....because there is not such a thing....sense is sense.....because even the things we deal with informally had to be taught...and even if informally, there was still a book around to explain it....

So you're qualified to paint psychological profiles on others??? "self hatred, metally affilcated, etc" Just because you have a Ph.D??? Nigga Puleeze!!! Oh yeah this is from a person who told me that I shouldn't criticize anyones abilities unles I was at the post doctorate level of my research endeavors. How pompous!!!
It doesn't surprise me that you don't know what the hell common sense is!!! LOL!! Because you have none!!!!
rotflmao

Well I think I have posted my quota for the next couple of months or so!!!

Sergeant, keep hammerin' buddy!!! I enjoy your posts!!!!!!!

thumbsup
IndependentMan,

Go and read what consitutes a threat......it is a direct statement to someone telling them what you are going to do to them....I said what happened to people who do things like you did....I never once said I would do it myself...I said what generally happens.....and as so far as a bitch is concerned, whose idea was it to go tell like a little punk bitch ass fag in the first place?.....if someone came at me anyway wrong....i'm not going to go tell anything like a punk...i'll handle it my dammy......so dogg...you are the one who was a little bitch needing adult assistance....not me.


As so far as Connerly...everyone knows he signed the contracts as a minority business....yes he made millions of of AA because before his time black men were not given gov't contracts period....do some reading. Why didn't he sue if they lied on him? Because the sorry azz confused negro benefitted and then like all of you....turn your back on the race. you are a shame to your parents and anyone else who endured jim crow. Where were you negro conservatives when King and Jesse and the rest were marching in the south?.....sitting on your punk coward wanna-be-white azzes waiting to benefit so you could philosophically disconnect when the movement was done......now that is bitch-like for a man for real........


As so far as Prop54, since you really seem to be acting like a dumb ass, i'll try again. How are people supposed to measure and monitor the effectiveness of outreach efforts? How are people supposed to measure the extent of racism and discrimination that exists? What is your alternative to analyzing racial data?


Since you say it is a dependency on gov't....when others receive subsidies, veterans receive preferances and the whole nine.....and Bush gives billion dollar contracts (your tax dollars)without bids to his cronies while national unemployment goes up and jobs disappear and schools are dilapidated without books, let me ask you..to what extent is the gov't supposed to work to fight racism and discrimination? You understand how they regulate pollution, food and drugs and other things that are harmful....what is their responsibility to check racism within the confines of its own nation? Do you think gov't has any responsibility or black people are just supposed to deal with it? Tell me please......

And yes I think in terms what the majority of the race thinks...because the race made efforts on my behalf where I was able to accomplish things that were not available to blacks WHOLESALE in the generation before me. That is much better than denying my race as a half-breed and then trying to adopt a white mindset so I can hopefully get liked by them "gud white folk" because I demonstrated to them that i don't think like those darkies.........Why would I turn my back on the things that got me down the road and can get others behind me the same results? So explain to me why 8% of negras with pro-white views even at the expense of their race are the smart ones? what makes them progressive and not just some bowed-head foot-shufflinf toms?
**This cat is a fool...he says get rid of the laws that provide opportunity for all....and HOPE and PRAY that diversity is acheived....what a moron.....

Ward Connerly's Crusade:
Should America Erase Race?


Ward Connerly wants to erase the notion of race from America's collective conscious. To do so, he's embarked on a state-by-state legislative crusade.

His experience has prepared him for the challenge. Connerly spearheaded California's Proposition 209, which banned race preferences in public employment, education and contracting. He was also instrumental in 1995 in getting a majority of board members at the University of California -- where he is a regent -- to ban the use of race in the school's admissions policy.

Connerly currently is focusing on eliminating affirmative action from the state of Michigan through a ballot initiative.

He is also leading the charge to enact California's Proposition 54, or Racial Privacy Initiative (RPI), which is scheduled to come before the state's voters October 7, 2003. The initiative will make it illegal to ask for race identification and is touted by RPI supporters as being able to "save our state budget over $10 million, end government's preferential treatment based on race and junk a 17th-century racial classification system that has no place in 21st-century America. RPI's passage will signal America's first step towards a color-blind society," according to RPI's Web site.

"I think the [Supreme Court's] affirmative action decision was a terrible decision," said Connerly from the Sacramento, Calif. office of his American Civil Rights Institute. "There are 23 initiative states and Michigan is one of those 23. If one is going to challenge a bad court decision, it seems to me you have to go to the place where the court decision took place. The beast really is Michigan."

The Supreme Court in a 5-4 decision supported the University of Michigan's use of race as one of several factors that can be considered in the admissions process, concluding that "diversity" is a compelling state interest. Connerly has said that he is an integrationist, supports gay rights and values diversity. Nonetheless, he believes that the government's support for affirmative action has a negative impact no matter what the reasons happen to be.

"The desirable path for achieving quote un-quote diversity is to make sure people have legal equal rights to compete, and then on the strength of that competition hope and pray that it ends up reflecting the multiplicity of this nation," said Connerly. "The whole concept of diversity is not well served by thinking that equates it with race preferences. Getting rid of preferences helps to get rid of the stigma that 'black' equals inferior, unqualified, disadvantaged."

An anti-affirmative-action Michigan ballot initiative was explored four years ago. Supporters, however, expected the Supreme Court to rule against the University of Michigan's affirmative action programs. But the justices only ruled unconstitutional the university's undergraduate system, which awarded points for an applicant's race.

Connerly launched his anti-affirmative-action initiative in Michigan on July 8. For an initiative to be placed on a Michigan ballot that will create or amend legislation, he must collect 254,206 signatures, which equals 8 percent of the votes cast for governor in the last gubernatorial election. To create a state constitutional amendment, he must gather 317,757 signatures. The signatures have to be gathered in a 180-day time frame, according to Michigan's bureau of elections.

Only Michigan's weather could stop his progress, Connerly said.

"It's pretty brutal in Michigan from November through March," Connerly said. "Beyond that I don't feel any discomfort."

Opponents of RPI and Connerly's stance on affirmative action say racial and ethnic data are essential to health care, law enforcement and criminal justice policy. The measure could strike the "race box" from many government forms by forbidding state and local governments from classifying students, contractors or employees by race, ethnicity, color or national origin. The measure exempts some data collected for medical research, descriptions of prisoners or criminal suspects, and cases where the federal government requires that agencies report racial data. They say studies on disparate medical treatment, incarceration rates and loan approvals for African Americans and whites would be threatened if voters approve RPI.


The crux of the issue is the definition of diversity and the proper way to value difference. Connerly argues that defining people by race or sexual orientation serves to segregate rather than create value for such uniqueness.

Hilary Shelton, Washington, D.C., bureau chief for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) said RPI simply provides a means to cover up the disparate ills suffered by communities of color.

"When you say we'll include everyone in the statistical data [without race] then you don't notice that unemployment in the African-American community is higher than it is in the white community," said Shelton. "You won't notice that colon cancer happens more often to black Americans than white Americans. If you don't notice those things then you have no responsibility to address them, so Ward Connerly is offering a cop out to not address those issues in our society."

Connerly counters by telling a story: He was sitting in a restaurant bar eating a hamburger and watching news anchor Soledad O'Brien on television when another customer, who recognized him, asked Connerly if O'Brien was African American. Co-host of CNN's "American Morning," O'Brien has a mixed background of Latino, Irish and African American. Connerly said he asked the man what particular characteristic he saw in her that caused him to question whether O'Brien was African American.

"He couldn't answer that question and I couldn't answer that question," said Connerly. "What is a black person? Is it skin color? We know it's not that because there are so many people who don't fit the bill. This whole debate about racial categories forces us to stop for a moment and ask about the legitimacy of categories. Are we defending the 'one drop' rule -- so that if there's any one feature that looks like 'black' then by golly you're a black person?"

Connerly, who said he himself is Irish, Native American and African American, contends that most African Americans come from mixed heritage yet are forced to identify as African American and live life like an African American instead of being "free" to realize their entire worth.

"We gain freedom by getting rid of all racial classifications in the public sphere," said Connerly. "If we get rid of racial classifications the labeling of inferiority would dissipate."

RPI opponents interviewed said they would herald the day race does not matter, but the present reality is that it does. Talking about making solutions colorblind when the problem is not colorblind is useless.

They also point to Connerly's supporters as proof that the real effort is to disregard the need communities of color face.

According to "Assault on Diversity: An Organized Challenge to Racial and Gender Diversity," a book written by Lee Cokorinos, Connerly's American Civil Rights Institute (ACRI) is heavily funded by conservative foundations:

The John M. Olin Foundation -- which funds conservative think tanks such as The American Enterprise Institute; The Heritage Foundation; The Manhattan Institute for Public Policy Research; and the Hoover Institute of War, Revolution and Peace -- gave ACRI $150,000 in 2000, $125,000 in 1999 and $225,000 in 1998.
The Sarah Scaife Foundation -- which The Washington Post reported in 1999 that along with other Scaife family foundations gave at least $340 million to conservative causes and institutions -- gave Connerly $75,000 in 2000, $175,000 in 1999 and $275,000 in 1998.
The Donner Foundation gave ACRI $110,000 in 1998.
The Bradley Foundation gave ACRI $150,000 in 2000 and $475,000 in 1998.
"[Connerly] is loaded," said Earl Ofari Hutchinson, syndicated columnist and president of the Inglewood, Calif.-based National Alliance for Positive Action, a racial and social-justice public-advocacy group and an RPI opponent. "He has more money than you can shake a fist at and he's been a pretty darn good salesman."
Cokorinos also chronicles Connerly's connection to California's conservative Republican Gov. Pete Wilson, writing that the two met when Connerly was working at the California Department of Housing and Community Development in 1968. Wilson, then a state assemblyman, hired Connerly in 1969. The two worked together off and on until 1991 when Wilson became mayor of San Diego, a U.S. senator and then governor in 1991.


Wilson eventually appointed Connerly to his regent post at the University of California.

"In 1993, immediately following the controversial appointment of one of his closest friends and biggest campaign financiers, Wilson made Ward Connerly -– a businessman with no experience in educational administration -– a regent, the board's only black member. Together, they pushed a resolution through the board that ended affirmative action in university admissions, employment practices and contracts. From the regents, Connerly went on in December 1995 to lead the campaign to qualify Proposition 209 for the [California] ballot," wrote Cokorinos.

Meanwhile Connerly, "apparently not eschewing so-called preferences entirely ... founded his own housing management consulting firm in Sacramento and listed it as 'minority owned.' " Cokorinos wrote.

Hutchinson contends that Connerly's RPI would be disastrous because "institutional discrimination works in defiance of the laws on the books, so as long as you have a society that is layered by race and textured with race that excludes everything."

Racial data works to ensure that people of color are included in the educational institutions and corporate institutions of the nation and without such data communities of color would lose services, Hutchinson said.

"You have to have some measure to quantify who is in the work force, who is getting stopped by police, documenting practices of employment discrimination -– if you don't have numbers, it's your word against theirs and your word does not hold as much weight as theirs," said Hutchinson.

Connerly contends RPI is the movement of the future and will become more popular as an increasing number of mixed-race people decline to choose one race over the other when they check the "race box."

"[The diversity movement should] get on the cutting edge of the phenomenon of people who are multicultural," said Connerly. "There is a growing population of people who are just now becoming aware of the fullness of their background and are choosing to defy racial categories."
Hello the Watcher,

"Are we talking about Ghettopoly anymore?" by The Watcher

Indeed. Much has been said that has absolutely nothing to do with the original topic. Out of all due respect, to the author, it would be best that every poster stick to the original topic!

I'm as much at fault as anyone else, as it relates to changing the subject matter.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 14, 2003 at 08:02 PM.]
Well Nmaginate,

Ghettopoly covers a lot of territory, meaning it is a game based on life in the Ghetto! Maybe this is the problem, meaning the so-called Black middle class are ashamed of where they came from, so much so that they refuse to invest in improving the quality of life in the "Hood".

Heck, if the Irish, the Jews, the Hispanics, etc., can turn a Ghetto into an affluent community, Black people can too. Heck, East Los Angeles used to be that barrio through, and through. In restrospect looking at East Los Angeles now, any visitor would be highly impressed, to see the many flourishing business enterprises run by Hispanic merchants, to move East Los Angeles several noches up from being the Barrio of extreme poverty, of a few years ago.

Black people, including the Black middle class, just choose to trash their own community. With this mindset, slim chance exists that Black people will ever move forward as opposed to taking huge steps backwards.

Even at the point of starvation there is absolutely nothing that any social welfare program can do for me, accept make a bad situation worse! Heck, to qualify an individual, a family, etc., must sell his, her, and/or their souls for funds that won't make ends meet.

A married woman can have any other male, but she must get rid of her husband to quality for welfare benefits. This reality most surely proves that Welfare is indeed a part of Ghettopoly.


"LOFTON is GHETTO!! LOFTON IS GHETTO!!" by Nmaginate

You bet I'm from the Ghetto, but at the same time, I'm proud of where I came from. Poverty, ignorance, being Ghetto, is the state of an individual's thoughts and/or actions. More so than me, you truly act Ghetto, in that although you may not live in the Ghetto, your actions are Ghetto!

Blaming everything on Caucasians has yet to put a dime in my pocket. Playing the dozens has yet to move me up from poverty. Yep, I'm from the Ghetto, and proud of where I came from. In spite of the very negative environment around me, I've managed to be successful, law abiding, respectful, honorable, etc.

This being said, any Black man or woman who makes something of his or herself, after being subjected to the very deadly environment of living in the Hood, deserves honorable mention, a "purple heart", a "bronze star", a long list of "atta boys or girls". More times than not, the Black male is doomed for failure, because his own Black community many times is against him.

___________________________________

It is well known that Nate Holden is a misfit, but yet the unintelligent voting Black middle class prove themselves to be just as ignorant! It is one thing to be from the Ghetto. It is another thing to be from Ghetto, and bend over backwards to support misfits, supporting the worst in Black people!

...But the so-called Black middle class will not hesitate to Give Praise to That Misfit in A no good disgraceful former Los Angeles City Councilman Nate Holden. If Nate Holden, the Baffoon, is voted into political office by Black folks one more time, Black folks should lose their right to vote!

"Holden to Seek State Office

Former councilman plans to run for Assembly seat being vacated by Herb Wesson because of term limits.

By Patrick McGreevy, Times Staff Writer

October 14, 2003

Months after being forced from office by term limits, former Los Angeles City Councilman Nate Holden announced Monday that he will run for a state Assembly seat in the March election.

Holden, 74, of Baldwin Hills, is seeking a return trip to Sacramento. He served four years in the state Senate before his 16-year stint on the City Council.

"I will bring to Sacramento some knowledge about how to get the job done and how to protect the interests of the people," said Holden, a Democrat.

Holden will run in the 47th Assembly District, which is represented by Speaker Herb Wesson (D-Culver City), who cannot run again because of term limits.

The district includes Baldwin Hills, the Crenshaw district, Culver City, Century City and Westwood.

Holden said experience is especially critical in Sacramento with the arrival of Gov.-elect Arnold Schwarzenegger, a newcomer to state government, and the departure of veteran legislators forced out by term limits.The former councilman said he has raised $70,000 for his candidacy.

Other candidates who have filed statements of intention to run in the Democratic primary for the 47th District include Canard E. Barnes, Karen Bass, Richard P. Groper, Rickey Ivie and Anthony Willoughby. No candidates have filed statements yet to run in the primary for any other party in the district."

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 14, 2003 at 09:56 PM.]
yeah Lofton,

Save the academic insults bro......
I teach at the bachelors, masters and doctoral level.....now I teach mainly online because I am tired of the classroom committment after a full day in my primary career.......go figure......so your canine could probably do better in one of my classes than you could....which still is not saying much. By the way, i'm contemplating applying for a Rhodes Scholarship in a year or two....my doctoral GPA was 3.9.....books have never been my problem....just self-loathing negras who make it harder on their own......so save your insults you f-king burnt-out, self-hating, apologist house negro wire-puller........


I am through trying to convince you self-hating negroes of anything.....you are a part of the "lost tribe"......

Instead, I will challenge you all to justify your stance on policy issues and fade the little tit-for-tat games that little b-tches play. I will be able to clearly demonstrate your white-oriented afflictions without ever saying one thing about you.....I mean look at your boy IndependentMan....he has still yet to ever tell me what is an alternative for affirmative action as a way to force inclusiveness in a racist society....or how does he plan to monitor racism, discrimination and outreach efforts had Prop 54 passed. to hell with me....i'm a non-issue....so we can quit the conversations about me....and see what makes YOU fellas so damn smart that you can attempt to tell me i'm dumb. As they say, "lets take it to the chalkboard"......but if you want to trade insults....my skin is thicker than leather....a word never made anyone bleed so they mean nothing......so set the tone bro...we can discuss issues or we can talk schit......i do not have a problem with either....and remember...profanity is only bad if it is indicative of the limits of one's vocabulary........
Well Kevin41,

"***So Lofton, the poverty stricken and welfare recipients are lumped in as a undesirable sector of society huh? They have a stigma based on their unfortunate situations according to you...man what the f-k is your problem?....hell someone in your family may have needed aid before or was poverty stricken....you really sound like a punk azz white racist fool at this point......" by Kevin41

...Ya right, as if to say, you don't throw your own garbage my direction, and/or others direction, you being the first to initiate an insult. One insult deserves another. From here on out though, I'm not going to stoop to your level. Your status is only worth something to those who are impressed.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

P.S.

"Are we talking about Ghettopoly anymore?" by The Watcher

Excuse My French, but indeed it is time that we drop our differences and get back to the topic at hand!

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 14, 2003 at 08:22 PM.]
Watcher, Mr. Lofton, I agree with you both!! I am as much at fault as well!!!

This one last refute on the self stroking professor.....


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
yeah Lofton,

Save the academic insults bro......
I teach at the bachelors, masters and doctoral level.....now I teach mainly online because I am tired of the classroom committment after a full day in my primary career.......go figure......so your canine could probably do better in one of my classes than you could....which still is not saying much. By the way, i'm contemplating applying for a Rhodes Scholarship in a year or two....my doctoral GPA was 3.9.....books have never been my problem....just self-loathing negras who make it harder on their own......so save your insults you f-king burnt-out, self-hating, apologist house negro wire-puller........


rotflmao
Ah another tid bit of self masterbation from the "professor". Fells good, huh Kev??? Only people with self esteem problems always have to lay out their credentials all the time, while at the same time belittling someone else. Hey Kev, like on TBWT, with all your credentials, making you look like you don't know what you're talking about on these forums is like taking candy from a little kid!!! And you keep comin' back for more!!! Makes for some good entertainment!!! It's also easy to prove what a contradictory LIAR you are as evidenced below....

I like Mr. Loftons come back....

quote:
Originally posted by Lofton:
...Ya right, as if to say, you don't throw your own garbage my direction, and/or others direction, you being the first to initiate an insult. One insult deserves another. From here on out though, I'm not going to stoop to your level. Your status is only worth something to those who are impressed.



See Kev, with all your education, etc, I (and most likely many others) view you as much as a low life as your buddy Rodney King, who incidently was just busted again for beating a woman.

Now this is HILARIOUS!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
Instead, I will challenge you all to justify your stance on policy issues and fade the little tit-for-tat games that little b-tches play.

rotflmao

What??? Let's look at your contradictory comments just in this thread!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
but when you refute me, stick to the topic and use my exact words...not YOUR version of what I said...


mmm, that's what I've been doing, Kev.

Then I responded with:

quote:

People like myself have always done this with you. Remember on TBWT, I did this, ramses357 (remember him???) did this?? It pissed you off, I'm sure you don't remember. Put you said that the basic style of debating was a "biitch tactic". So "there you go again". Suggesting that someone go to a style of debating which you couldn't stand before. You simply amaze me!!!!


Then you came back with.....

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
***No I said men using sarcastic azz female language to avoid facts was bitch-like in nature...and it still is....


Which one is it Kev, where did I or anyone else use sarcastic azz female language to avoid facts?? Please show me....You can't because I do not do that!!!!! If anyone is guilty of that, it's you!!!! And ALWAYS has been!!!
rotflmao
I told you the debating style of showing your exact wording and responding to such pisses you off, because you get to see first hand, how idiotic you sound. So, Kev, what I'm doing is a tit for tat game that bitches play??? This is what debating is all about on an internet forum. Where did I use sarcastic azz female language, Kev?? I can point out numerous places where you did!!! So then, are you a bitch, Kev??

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
As so far as Prop54, since you really seem to be acting like a dumb ass, i'll try again. How are people supposed to measure and monitor the effectiveness of outreach efforts? How are people supposed to measure the extent of racism and discrimination that exists? What is your alternative to analyzing racial data?

Did you say, sarcastic azz bitch comments?? I didn't expect you to read through the proposition. You're too lazy. You would much rather just criticize it with your personal rhetoric. You said it was racist. I asked to line item the proposition and state what you thought was racist....you didn't.

As far as the Connerly issue, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, you still have not proved a thing, well you have proved that you can insult and put down!!!!!
rotflmao


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
I am through trying to convince you self-hating negroes of anything.....you are a part of the "lost tribe"......

Can you give us the skinny on what makes someone "self-hating"?? Who gives you the authority to make that assesment? You're trying to convince??!!?? Wow, now that's funny!!!
rotflmao

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
I mean look at your boy IndependentMan....he has still yet to ever tell me what is an alternative for affirmative action as a way to force inclusiveness in a racist society....or how does he plan to monitor racism, discrimination and outreach efforts had Prop 54 passed. to hell with me....i'm a non-issue....so we can quit the conversations about me....and see what makes YOU fellas so damn smart that you can attempt to tell me i'm dumb. As they say, "lets take it to the chalkboard"......but if you want to trade insults....my skin is thicker than leather....a word never made anyone bleed so they mean nothing......so set the tone bro...we can discuss issues or we can talk schit......i do not have a problem with either....and remember...profanity is only bad if it is indicative of the limits of one's vocabulary........

rotflmao

Playing victim once again, Kev. I have outlined countless times my views on AA, you just didn't read them or IMO comprehend them. That's too bad. No, Kev, I don't come here to trade insults, that's for people who are very insecure and immature I would rather talk about the issues. But somehow I get the impression that you think you do not start the insults with people. Just like on jobs where you've been labeled as having a bad attitude, it was the fault of the white racists and "buck grinin' dancin' negroes", I think that's funny!!! Never the onus is on you, always someone elses fault. You're just too good I guess. Anyway Kev, I really hope someday you will find happiness, 'cause your one miserable muthafucka.

Watcher, again I aplogize, I enjoy your posts!!!

I'm done with this thread. I'm done with this board for a while.

Good day!!!
thumbsup

[This message was edited by IndependentMan on October 15, 2003 at 07:16 AM.]
Independent Man posted,

Watcher, Mr. Lofton, I agree with you both!! I am as much at fault as well!!!

This one last refute on the self stroking professor.....



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
yeah Lofton,

Save the academic insults bro......
I teach at the bachelors, masters and doctoral level.....now I teach mainly online because I am tired of the classroom committment after a full day in my primary career.......go figure......so your canine could probably do better in one of my classes than you could....which still is not saying much. By the way, i'm contemplating applying for a Rhodes Scholarship in a year or two....my doctoral GPA was 3.9.....books have never been my problem....just self-loathing negras who make it harder on their own......so save your insults you f-king burnt-out, self-hating, apologist house negro wire-puller........

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ah another tid bit of self masterbation from the "professor". Fells good, huh Kev??? Only people with self esteem problems always have to lay out their credentials all the time, while at the same time belittling someone else. Hey Kev, like on TBWT, with all your credentials, making you look like you don't know what you're talking about on these forums is like taking candy from a little kid!!! And you keep comin' back for more!!! Makes for some good entertainment!!! It's also easy to prove what a contradictory LIAR you are as evidenced below....

I like Mr. Loftons come back....

****Independent Man...it is not self-stoking at all.....just the facts man....it is like when Jordan says he's good at basketball.....the haters who cannot shoot as well call it arrogant....but when we are all alone....we understand he's just putting out facts. BUT HEY...I WORK HARD TO BE ABLE TO MAKE THOSE FACTS....SO F-K WHOVER IS NOT UP BURNING THE MIDNIGHT OIL WITH ME

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Lofton:
...Ya right, as if to say, you don't throw your own garbage my direction, and/or others direction, you being the first to initiate an insult. One insult deserves another. From here on out though, I'm not going to stoop to your level. Your status is only worth something to those who are impressed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



See Kev, with all your education, etc, I (and most likely many others) view you as much as a low life as your buddy Rodney King, who incidently was just busted again for beating a woman.

Now this is HILARIOUS!!!


****Yes Independent Man.....I knew you would....hell I do not have issues with what race I am....and the MAJORITY of black people embrace my views with open arms......plus my mom and dad were married for 56 years before passed....now what makes you compare me to a man who hits women? Thats funny....based on your lack of concrete racial identity and pro-white views....i'm sure you are closer to being confused like Rodney before I am......it is obvious....WHAT HAPPENED TO STICKING TO THE POLICY DISCUSSION? WHY DO YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO RIDE SOMEBODY'S D-IK WHEN THEY HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT ME....BE A MAN....DON'T PIGGY-BACK OFF OF THE EFFORTS OF OTHERS ....IT IS A BITCH TRAIT....IT IS [B]****INDY MAN.....WHY ARE SKIPPING MY QUESTION ON PROP 54...HOW DO YOU PLAN TO MONITOR OR MEASURE RACISM, DISCRIMINATION OR PROGRESS AGAINST IT?LIKE YOU CAN'T GO IT ALONE. BUT THE RODNEY KING STATEMENT IN ITSELF IS AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR B-TCH DEMEANOR. THE CONVERSATION WASN'T BETWEEN ME AND YOU...BUY YOU JUMP IN LIKE HIS B-TCH BECAUSE YOU KNOW HE'LL PROTECT YOU IF FIGHT BREAKS OUT argue[/B]


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
Instead, I will challenge you all to justify your stance on policy issues and fade the little tit-for-tat games that little b-tches play.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What??? Let's look at your contradictory comments just in this thread!!!!


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
but when you refute me, stick to the topic and use my exact words...not YOUR version of what I said...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



mmm, that's what I've been doing, Kev.

Then I responded with:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

People like myself have always done this with you. Remember on TBWT, I did this, ramses357 (remember him???) did this?? It pissed you off, I'm sure you don't remember. Put you said that the basic style of debating was a "biitch tactic". So "there you go again". Suggesting that someone go to a style of debating which you couldn't stand before. You simply amaze me!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Then you came back with.....


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
***No I said men using sarcastic azz female language to avoid facts was bitch-like in nature...and it still is....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Which one is it Kev, where did I or anyone else use sarcastic azz female language to avoid facts?? Please show me....You can't because I do not do that!!!!! If anyone is guilty of that, it's you!!!! And ALWAYS has been!!!



****INDY MAN.....WHY ARE SKIPPING MY QUESTION ON PROP 54...HOW DO YOU PLAN TO MONITOR OR MEASURE RACISM, DISCRIMINATION OR PROGRESS AGAINST IT? AS SO FAR AS BITCHY...WHAT THE HELL DOES RODNEY KING HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?



I told you the debating style of showing your exact wording and responding to such pisses you off, because you get to see first hand, how idiotic you sound. So, Kev, what I'm doing is a tit for tat game that bitches play??? This is what debating is all about on an internet forum. Where did I use sarcastic azz female language, Kev?? I can point out numerous places where you did!!! So then, are you a bitch, Kev??

NAW...BUT I BET YOU KNOW WHO THE REAL B-TCH IS....TAKE A GUESS......


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
As so far as Prop54, since you really seem to be acting like a dumb ass, i'll try again. How are people supposed to measure and monitor the effectiveness of outreach efforts? How are people supposed to measure the extent of racism and discrimination that exists? What is your alternative to analyzing racial data?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Did you say, sarcastic azz bitch comments?? I didn't expect you to read through the proposition. You're too lazy. You would much rather just criticize it with your personal rhetoric. You said it was racist. I asked to line item the proposition and state what you thought was racist....you didn't.


***** SEE THE QUESTION ABOVE ABOUT PROP 54 PLEASE!!!

As far as the Connerly issue, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, you still have not proved a thing, well you have proved that you can insult and put down!!!!!

****CONNERLY TOOK THE CONTRACTS AS A MINORITY OWNED BUSINESS...WHY DO YOU THINK HE MADE THE INDIRECT COMMENT THAT EVERONE BENEFITS FROM THE AURA OF INCLUSION THAT AA PROVIDES?

READ BELOW AND AGAIN ASK WHY WOULD MULTIPLE SOURCES HAVE TO GET TOGETHER AND LIE ON THIS GUY? PLEASE ANSWER THAT QUESTION SPECIFICALLY:
In addition, a Jet article cited a story in the San Francisco Chronicle which stated that he had accepted $140,000 over the years in affirmative action contracts from the government. Though roughly half of his business did indeed come from the government, Connerly disputed that it was affirmative action money, telling Donna St. George of the Knight-Ridder/Tribune News Service, "I don't think there's a minority around who hasn't benefited from the climate of inclusion that affirmative action has fostered. But I have never gone after the preference." He mentioned that he never listed himself on minority rosters, nor did he apply for minority "set-asides." However, Ayres in the New York Times reported that Connerly had indeed listed his firm as minority-owned in order to "keep all the benefits of a government contract."


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
I am through trying to convince you self-hating negroes of anything.....you are a part of the "lost tribe"......
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Can you give us the skinny on what makes someone "self-hating"?? Who gives you the authority to make that assesment? You're trying to convince??!!?? Wow, now that's funny!!!

**WHAT MAKES A PERSON SELF-HATING IS WHEN THEY WORK TO DENY THEIR IDENTITY AS A BLACK PERSON....AND THEN ADOPT VIEWS THAT ARE LEGISLATIVELY ADVERSE TO BLACK PEOPLE AS A WAY TO PHILOSOPHICALLY DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROM THE BLACK MAJORITY BECAUSE THEY ARE REALLY NOT ABLE TO PHYSICALLY DO SO.....UNDERSTAND?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevin41:
I mean look at your boy IndependentMan....he has still yet to ever tell me what is an alternative for affirmative action as a way to force inclusiveness in a racist society....or how does he plan to monitor racism, discrimination and outreach efforts had Prop 54 passed. to hell with me....i'm a non-issue....so we can quit the conversations about me....and see what makes YOU fellas so damn smart that you can attempt to tell me i'm dumb. As they say, "lets take it to the chalkboard"......but if you want to trade insults....my skin is thicker than leather....a word never made anyone bleed so they mean nothing......so set the tone bro...we can discuss issues or we can talk schit......i do not have a problem with either....and remember...profanity is only bad if it is indicative of the limits of one's vocabulary........
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Playing victim once again, Kev. I have outlined countless times my views on AA, you just didn't read them or IMO comprehend them. That's too bad. No, Kev, I don't come here to trade insults, that's for people who are very insecure and immature I would rather talk about the issues. But somehow I get the impression that you think you do not start the insults with people. Just like on jobs where you've been labeled as having a bad attitude, it was the fault of the white racists and "buck grinin' dancin' negroes", I think that's funny!!! Never the onus is on you, always someone elses fault. You're just too good I guess. Anyway Kev, I really hope someday you will find happiness, 'cause your one miserable muthafucka.


***** YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION FROM A LEGISLATIVE OUTCOME PERSPECTIVE...PLEASE DO NOT SKIRT THE ANSWER...AND SINCE I'M SO DUMB, MAYBE YOU NEED TO LEARN TO EXPRESS YOURSELF CLEARER...AS THE SMARTER ONE HERE..IT IS YOUR DUTY TO REACH ALL OF THE STUDENTS, EVEN THE SLOW ONES LIKE ME....SO PLEASE EXPLAIN FROM A LEGISLATIVE OUTCOME PERSPECTIVE, ONCE AGAIN AND AS SO FAR AS A VICTIM....I'M SURE LABELING YOU AS BLACK VICTIMIZES YOU DAILY Big Grin

Watcher, again I aplogize, I enjoy your posts!!!

I'm done with this thread. I'm done with this board for a while.

Good day!!!

**** ALL DAYS ARE GOOD IF YOU HAVE YOUR HEALTH, STRENGTH AND MENTAL ABILITIES...
One more time.....

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
****INDY MAN.....WHY ARE SKIPPING MY QUESTION ON PROP 54...HOW DO YOU PLAN TO MONITOR OR MEASURE RACISM, DISCRIMINATION OR PROGRESS AGAINST IT? AS SO FAR AS BITCHY...WHAT THE HELL DOES RODNEY KING HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?
{/QUOTE]
No I haven't skipped you question. You just haven't read the proposition, that's your problem, not mine. Rodney King?? Just making a comparison he's a low life at one end of the spectrum and you are at the other. It's that simple.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kevin41:
NAW...BUT I BET YOU KNOW WHO THE REAL B-TCH IS....TAKE A GUESS......


Mmmmm, YOU!! rotflmao


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
However, Ayres in the New York Times reported that Connerly had indeed listed his firm as minority-owned in order to "keep all the benefits of a government contract."


Where's the evidence????? This guy can say that Connerly is a rapist as well, does it make him so??? I know it would in your mind.



quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
**WHAT MAKES A PERSON SELF-HATING IS WHEN THEY WORK TO DENY THEIR IDENTITY AS A BLACK PERSON....AND THEN ADOPT VIEWS THAT ARE LEGISLATIVELY ADVERSE TO BLACK PEOPLE AS A WAY TO PHILOSOPHICALLY DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROM THE BLACK MAJORITY BECAUSE THEY ARE REALLY NOT ABLE TO PHYSICALLY DO SO.....UNDERSTAND?


No, I do not understand. I can physically distance myself from black according to people who have different perceptions of what constitutes "black". If that were not so, many people wouldn't ask what my hertitage is. And I'm not into group thought, that is for weak minded people....like leftists, and you. I have the views that I have because I think they are right, and I am entitled to hold these views. UNDERSTAND??!!??


quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
hell I do not have issues with what race I am....and the MAJORITY of black people embrace my views with open arms......


I don't have any issues with what race I am either, Kev. I am of the Human Race!!!!

Perhaps that's part of the problem with the black community today, that is if the MAJORITY embrace your views with open arms. Victimology. Yes you will be popular with the people who want to hear it, but it will not solve one problem. But hey, that's your right!!!!



quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
LIKE YOU CAN'T GO IT ALONE. BUT THE RODNEY KING STATEMENT IN ITSELF IS AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR B-TCH DEMEANOR. THE CONVERSATION WASN'T BETWEEN ME AND YOU...BUY YOU JUMP IN LIKE HIS B-TCH BECAUSE YOU KNOW HE'LL PROTECT YOU IF FIGHT BREAKS OUT


C'mon, Kev, you know me much better than to post this bs !!! I jumped in to show that she was not the only person that gets treated this way by you. I know that bothers you!!! And without you, I would not have been able to prove my point!!!! Thanks, Kev!!!!
You know I will stand up to anyone on this forum with the FACTS, and I will even acknowledge a good point in my detractors which I have and when I'm wrong, which I have. You should try that, Kev....ah, but you're too good for that. Being humble will get you further in life than being proud!!!!!



quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
ONCE AGAIN AND AS SO FAR AS A VICTIM....I'M SURE LABELING YOU AS BLACK VICTIMIZES YOU DAILY


No not at all!!! Being told I have to think a certain way gets to me more than anything else!!!



quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
**** ALL DAYS ARE GOOD IF YOU HAVE YOUR HEALTH, STRENGTH AND MENTAL ABILITIES...


AGREED!!!!!

I know you must have the last digs, Kev, so then, by all means!!!

Ciao!!!
Indy Man,

Quit eluding to your personal weaknesses as reflective of mine......for the record.....if one doesn't put their hands on me or bother my finances....they do not bother me period......hopefully you understand now so you can quit assigning me weaknesses based on some damn message board. Too bad you are not in person so you can see the difference in being expressive and being perturbed.

Again, why would the media lie on Connerly....multiple sources such as major newspapers......and since you believe as much and want to imply that the papers are lying....have you ever seen a reputable news source say that the other papers were lying on connerly and that he actually wasn't a minority business? I doubt it....too bad it is not worth actually procuring the documents from the appropriate government agency....I'm sure the San Francisco Chronicle and/or New York Times did themselves....because their credibility is/was on the line....especially in the recently heated climate of AA.


As so far as victimology....I haven't seen anything about my life that indicates that and you wouldn't either.....always been an overachiever....DESPITE RACISM.....I always felt they were not smart enough or worked hard enough to keep this brother down....a real victim mentality huh? But if acknowledging the realities of racism in america is victimology...then maybe you need to read what the definition of the word is.....racial profiling, redlining, linguistic profiling, employment discrimination are all realities black people face...if you choose to look the other way....fine.......I choose not to even though I've overcome a lot of those same obstacles......because despite all of the racist things that have been done to me....passed over promotions, denied jobs I was most qualified for, terminated on probationary jobs for speaking out against racist jokes, etc....I just kept learning...and knew one day the knowledge would bypass those intended to hold me back because I was not a bowed-head, foot shuffling Negro. And now that I have reached the level of knowledge I strived to attain....I can make more teaching online part-time in a year than their shiitty azz jobs offered in person taking their BS...not to mention my full time career.....so how you can see that obvious example of using knowledge as a tool of empowerment, independence and changing social and economic conditions as victimology.......beats the hell out of me......


And if blacks speaking out against racism and unfairness is victimology....what is a Negro who accepts their second-class treatment for"acceptance" (an imaginary concept at best). I once heard a white conservative say around the 2000 elections that "diversity and healing is not our business"....now who do you think they were referring to as being diverse and who if any race needs healing from past atrocities? It is crystal clear whom we are alluding to.......

And as so far as being a member of the human race.....that is a species thing, not an ethnic background thing as I am referring to...so as long as society still takes specific actions on the basis of race...then I must deal with reality....not what I would WANT race to be. I am sure you know what I mean......like the brothers used to tell you....black conservatives speak from a principle would they would LIKE conservatism to be.....but the way it is practiced by white males in this country really places blacks in as tokens....with no say so over the agenda........


So once again, how do you measure discrimination, outreach efforts and racial progress in terms of inclusion without racial data.....those issues are separate and apart from the exemptions that were to be placed in the prop if it has passed. please answer me specifically.

As so far as affirmative action, what do you suggest to put into place to see that fairness and inclusion is practiced? Or do you really believe the highest qualified black is always lower than the lowest qualified white...the UM case proved that to be wrong.

Also what about the resultant drops in black participation in gov't contracting...blacks pay taxes like everyone else...so we should be afforded a piece of the pie the good ole boy network likes to keep 100% white male....what are your remedies to see that fairness is there also.....or do you believe that blacks are not qualified or competitive from a business standpoint? Please answer these questions specifically in terms of what you propose as solutions for racism in the societal areas......
Connerly Interview Reveals Hypocrisy
Regent's past actions contradict 209
By Gurman Singh


Excerpts:

Perhaps the most devastating proof of Connerly's hypocrisy is that he has personally benefited from affirmative action. According to the May 8, 1995 edition of the San Francisco Chronicle, Connerly "received more than $1 million in state business during the past six years by signing up as a minority contractor, state records show." When asked about this obvious hypocrisy, Connerly acknowledged that his firm participated in the race-based program, but denied that it was affirmative action.

Connerly claimed that the state program was simply a "policy that requires that every contract ... to include participation of at least 15 percent minority businesses and 5 percent women." Well, Ward, that is affirmative action, and you profited from it. Moreover, the Chronicle states, "The other main part of Connerly's business, the Community Development Block Grants, are awarded under stringent federal affirmative action regulations." Despite his obvious use of affirmative action, Connerly has deceitfully declared, "I have never, ever in my life tried to take advantage of my race to get a benefit."

Ward Connerly's use of minority contracting guidelines proves that he is a cynical, sleazy liar, willing to exploit affirmative action for money but ready to destroy it at the behest of his white patrons. For all his talk of a color-blind society, Connerly has done nothing about the vicious racism in Texaco and Avis. If he's such a champion of a color-blind society, why doesn't he fight against white racism? Notably, Connerly, Wilson and all of the other anti-affirmative action zealots have failed to provide an alternative method to fighting white racism. But then, I'm assuming that they believe that such a thing as white racism even exists. Silly me.


**** Well well..........
Is The Game Over For Ghettopoly?
By Angela D. Johnson

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October 16, 2003

Citing a violation of its merchant service agreement, Yahoo! has pulled the plug on Ghettopoly's Yahoo! Store. Listings for the product have also been removed from eBay.

"That news to me is good news," said Wayne Charness, SVP of Hasbro, marketer of the original Monopoly concept. While Charness says Hasbro did not request that Yahoo! shut down the Ghettopoly site, the company has sent a cease and desist order to David Chang, the game's creator.

Hasbro contends that Ghettopoly violates its intellectual property rights and is prepared to take legal action if sales continue. In Ghettopoly, traditional Monopoly house and hotel properties are replaced with crack houses and project developments. The money is counterfeit and the banker is a loan shark. Instead of "Get out of jail free" cards, "Ghetto Stash" cards have messages such as "You got your whole neighborhood addicted to crack: Collect $50 from each playa." The game also pokes fun at civil rights leaders such as Malcolm X and the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., who are referred to as Malcum X and Martin Luthor King.

Yahoo!'s merchant service agreement states that the company "reserves the right to refuse to host or continue to host any Store which it believes, in its sole discretion ... offers for sale goods or services ... that are illegal, obscene, vulgar, offensive, dangerous, or otherwise inappropriate."

Illegal or dangerous? Probably not. But many have found Ghettopoly offensive. Earlier this month, civil rights organizations such as the NAACP, Anti-Defamation League and the National Action Network launched protests against Urban Outfitters, the only bricks-and-mortar retailer known to carry the game. Shortly after, the store pulled the products from its shelves.

Discussion of Ghettopoly has reached local nightly news casts as well as blogs and message boards online. While some are thoroughly appalled by the game, others think what the game represents is no different than the images that are presented in rap videos.

For those who were troubled by the game, Yahoo! and eBay, two companies supporting the sale of the game online, replaced Urban Outfitters as a target of protest. eBay removed Ghettopoly product listings from its site on Monday.

Jennifer Caukin, senior manager, communications, at eBay said Ghettopoly "was not consistent with the spirit of our community."

Caukin was unsure as to whether the decision to remove the item was a response to complaints from users; however, she said, "It's not unusual where we would get feedback from our users letting us know about items they feel are offensive."

In the past, eBay has discontinued the sale of potentially offensive items such as Nazi paraphernalia or Black Americana items containing the word "n--ger" in the description. Earlier this year, eBay changed its policy to only allow the term when it is in the official title of the product being sold.

For now, sale of the game online has been halted; however Chang, through a message on the Ghettopoly Web site, has promised to fulfill outstanding orders. According to the site, the game is currently sold out, but Chang anticipates completing more than 10,000 unfilled requests on or around Dec. 10.

Neither Chang nor Yahoo! responded to requests for an interview. However, Chang has posted what he claims is the message he received from Yahoo. It reads in part: "It's been brought to Yahoo!'s attention that your Yahoo! Store has violated the terms of the Yahoo! Terms of Service and/or the Yahoo! Store Merchant Service Agreement ... As of this notice, your Store Ghettopoly has been placed into 'not open' status, which will allow you to finish any pending business. You may not accept new orders or republish your Store."

But for some, the game is not over. According to New York Newsday, activists including New York City Council member John Liu and Council Deputy Majority Leader Bill Perkins are asking for a formal apology from Chang and for proceeds from the sale of the game, which retails for $29.95, to be donated to charities serving minority communities.

"White people should be denouncing this and corporate America should be denouncing this," Perkins was quoted as saying in Newsday. "This is not just the responsibility of the victims but all of us should make sure this game is not on the market."
The Animated Film


The above animated film is a quality piece of work, that has received the best site reviews on the site, however "Who wants to marry a hoochie?" and "Meet the babies' mamas" got the most views.

It appears that our community is consumed with self hate. Granted that you will laugh at what is funny, however the prospective is a bit off (I think).

>

... its time for Prosperity


> >  >



An African American Board Game Of Wealth & Success.
My vote is in


quote:
STOP THE MARKETING AND SELLING OF THE RACISTS GAME "GHETTOPOLY" IN U.S. STORES AND TO STOP DAVID CHANG (CREATOR) FROM PROFITING OFF POVERTY AND MISFORTUNE IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY !




We endorse the STOP THE MARKETING AND SELLING OF THE RACISTS GAME "GHETTOPOLY" IN U.S. STORES AND TO STOP DAVID CHANG (CREATOR) FROM PROFITING OFF POVERTY AND MISFORTUNE IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY ! Petition to U.S. CONGRESS.


Read the STOP THE MARKETING AND SELLING OF THE RACISTS GAME "GHETTOPOLY" IN U.S. STORES AND TO STOP DAVID CHANG (CREATOR) FROM PROFITING OFF POVERTY AND MISFORTUNE IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY ! Petition



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The STOP THE MARKETING AND SELLING OF THE RACISTS GAME "GHETTOPOLY" IN U.S. STORES AND TO STOP DAVID CHANG (CREATOR) FROM PROFITING OFF POVERTY AND MISFORTUNE IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY ! Petition to U.S. CONGRESS was created by Fed Up Consumers of Negative Stereotypes and written by Faye Grey. The petition is hosted here at www.PetitionOnline.com as a public service. There is no endorsement of this petition, express or implied, by Artifice, Inc. or our sponsors. For technical support please use our simple Petition Help form.
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protest now a federal issue
"The above animated film is a quality piece of work, that has received the best site reviews on the site, however "Who wants to marry a hoochie?" and "Meet the babies' mamas" got the most views.

It appears that our community is consumed with self hate. Granted that you will laugh at what is funny, however the prospective is a bit off (I think)."

More like self-hate, greed, and ignorance.
Not my type of humor, but someone out there is making a mint off of comedy skits based on the real to life perversion of Black people. It is certain somebody from our community helped to write the script for this. No amount of money would be worth me doing anything like this.

....but as usual there are people who act like this in the real, just tune in to one episode of BET, the WB, and/or revisit the sacreligious life style of many of Black America's preachers, deacons, cheap women, etc., and it wouldn't be difficult for any animation artist to create this.

As to Who Wants to Marry a Hoochie!

"Or just revisit the sacreligious life style of White American, Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans, Any Americans and it would not be difficult . . ." by sunnubian

The Above Quotation is Very Far From the Reality of it, Should the Reality be Visited. Can't have the highest rate of ethnic strife in the U.S., and at the same time be so committed to being religious, ethical, moral, constructive, trustworthy, ingenious, competent, etc. Caucasians, Koreans, Hispanics, etc., are not nearly as self destructive as Black people, no matter how the sunnubians attempt to make it seem that it is so!

It is a huge misnomer to believe that Caucasians, Hispanics, Asians, etc., are making complete fools of themselves and/or their people, over the media in a Bet, the WB, etc., in real life. If Caucasian preachers, deacons, etc., overwhelmingly used church tidings received in the name of deceit, like that of Black America, there would be no such institution as the University of Southern California, Loyola University, Cedars Sinai Hospital, the Red Cross, etc. You won't find Caucasians,Koreans, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Arabs, etc., starting a church on virtually every block, pitching tents to conduct religious ceremonies, converting that movie theater into a church, etc., at the expense of business development. Church emphasis over business development would kill off business development, the essense of free enterprise. The promotion of religious doctine over and above the slightest in business development, would kill off sources of tax revenue to pay for government services.

Heck, the huge places of worship, such as a West Los Angeles Church of God and Christ, here in Los Angeles, use the tidings of Black people to build a Cathedral in a West Los Angeles Church, while the building contractors, laborers, architects, engineers, wholesale houses, mortgage companies, escrow companies, etc., are composed of every other ethnic group but Black people. Mind you, the crime, homeless population, and unemployment rate of Black people is the highest in the U.S. The only idiots here are in fact Black people. No other ethnic group is going to finance any multi-million dollar endeavor unless they're getting a return on their investment, the return being:

A. Gainful employment opportunities for their people.

B. A lion's share of the profits.

C. The fruit of the effort to uplift the economic condition of their respective ethnic communities, etc.

_________________________________________

....And Again More Ignorance, This Time by Black Muslims, to Which These Individuals Face Up to 20 Years in Prison, and/or Huge Civil claims Against Their Personal Assets, for Treason Against the U.S.!

....But Wait, according to the contentions of the detractors in a sunnubian, or otherwise Caucasians, Koreans, Hispanics, etc., are well represented in this movement of Treason Against the U.S. too, as it pertains to taking a huge leap in the wrong direction!


"Two Plead Guilty in Terror-Cell Case
From Associated Press

October 17, 2003

PORTLAND, Ore. "” The final two defendants in an alleged Portland terrorist cell pleaded guilty Thursday and agreed to serve 18 years in federal prison.

Patrice Lumumba Ford and Jeffrey L. Battle were among seven Portland-area residents charged with plotting to wage war against U.S. troops in Afghanistan. Four others pleaded guilty earlier. The remaining suspect is thought to have been killed in a shootout in Pakistan.

Ford and Battle pleaded guilty to conspiracy to levy war against the U.S., which carried a maximum sentence of 20 years and a $250,000 fine.

The two men stood in the courtroom and Ford told U.S. District Judge Robert D. Jones, "I plead guilty." Battle then did the same.

Stanley Cohen, a lawyer representing Ford, said his client pleaded guilty because he doubted he could receive a fair trial.

"In this political climate, it is impossible for a black man, a Muslim, an activist to get a fair trial," Cohen said.

The pleas came during a hearing in which defense attorneys intended to challenge evidence gathered under the USA Patriot Act. Because of the pleas, those challenges were not heard.

In Washington, Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft said the pleas showed the worth of new law enforcement powers granted under the act.

In October 2002, agents nabbed Ford, Battle, brothers Ahmed Ibrahim Bilal and Muhammad Ibrahim Bilal and Battle's ex-wife, October M. Lewis, in what Ashcroft called a "defining day" in the fight against terrorism.

A sixth man charged along with them, Jordanian native Habis Abdulla Al Saoub, may have been among eight Al Qaeda suspects killed in an Oct. 2 shootout in Pakistan, officials in Washington said Thursday. The officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said they were waiting for a final identification.

In the spring, authorities arrested a seventh suspect, Maher "Mike" Hawash.

Prosecutors said the group plotted to join the Taliban in fall 2001 to fight against the U.S. armed forces then fighting in Afghanistan. The six male defendants traveled to China in a failed attempt to enter Afghanistan, according to court documents.

Prosecutors said Lewis wired $2,130 to her ex-husband while he traveled overseas. Lewis last month pleaded guilty to money laundering and agreed to testify against her former husband and Ford.

In September, the Bilal brothers pleaded guilty to charges including conspiring to help Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Both face up to 14 years in federal prison.

Hawash pleaded guilty in August to conspiring to aid the Taliban and agreed to testify against other suspects. He will serve at least seven years in federal prison."

"the scorn that some of us have for the black race proves that the residual behavior from slavery is still present....when many of us were convinced to think low of ourselves without seeing what forces placed us in the situation we were in.....they know damn well none of these behaviors are exclusive to blacks....but phrasing it as such makes them feel better about themselves......" by the various nay sayers...

Should Black America's Own Elected Leadership Use False Pretenses to Seek or Hold Elected Office Instead of Condemnation or Recall, These Very Disgraceful, Deceitful, Criminal, Unethical, Un-American, Incompetent, and/or Sleazy Individuals Receive a Multitude in Commendation and/or Community Support for Re-election to Public Service, by Black America's Own Heavily Democratic Voting Middle Class!

The Blatant Greed, Sleaze, and/or Ignorance of Black People in Positions of Authority, Prove This to be True!

.....but wait, due to over 400 years of slavery, Jim Crowe activity, some of which Black people have also enslaved or perpetrated "Jim Crowe" activity against other Black people,...this is as good an excuse as any to continue that downward spiral of ignorance, as described in the aforementioned material. There really is no excuse for being so self destructive, simple minded, sleazy, sacreligious, untrustworthy, treasonous, un-American, etc. Black people continue to be their own worst enemy, to which Black people cannot continue to blame their own incompetence on the vestibule of slavery past, without taking responsibility for their own actions to be constructive as opposed to being uncouth, unethical, immoral, disgraceful, sleazy, and/or blatantly self destructive!

...But Wait, Just Suppose Your Argument Has A Long Shot Possibility of Being True....Then Because Caucasians, Koreans, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Jews, the Hispanics, etc., Commit Violent Crime on Par With Black Folks, Therefore It Is Perfectly In Order for Black People to Senselessly Seriously Maim or Kill An Even Greater Number of Black People on a Daily Basis!

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 17, 2003 at 11:54 PM.]
....but as usual there are people who act like this in the real, just tune in to one episode of BET, and/or revisit the sacreligious life style of many of Black America's preachers, deacons, cheap women, etc., and it wouldn't be difficult for any animation artist to create this.

Or just revisit the sacreligious life style of white American, Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans, Any Americans and it would not be difficult . . .
thanks sunnubian,

you have to constantly remind this cat that those are PEOPLE behaviors that he assumes are BLACK behaviors...if he went to Portland oregon, he'd see white guys with lowriders, pants off their azzes, guns, drugs, weed, drinky-drink and all those things he vehemently proclaims that are in black communities across the country.........not that two wrongs make a right...it is just that he has to acknowledge ALL wrongs to be accurate in his assessment....if not, it just come across as racist or self-hating to emphasize one race's behavior.........
I just get so tired of seeing and hearing of all the negative images that people chose to force on only African American and African American communities. It seems that people forget the American part of African Americans - in that we are also Americans and some of us have adopted as well the negative behaviors that are American practices. It is wrong to assume that every Black person from a poor community is a drug addict, drug dealer, "cheap woman" or is someone without any morals. Every group, every race, every nation, every family always have and always will have a certain percentage of deviance. Who are we, African Americans that we should be so perfect as to not have people on drugs, criminals, "cheap women" -every otehr group or race, etc. has the same. We really or no different that anyone else (excluding the blanket image that propagandists force on us everyday). Why do we deserve so much criticism and hatred for the negative that some African Americans engage in? It is the racism and discrimination that forces African Americans throughout this country to be mainly populated together in predominately Black poor communities, otherwise you would see African Americans sparsely populated through out all American communities and the drug use, crime, and immorality would go largely unnoticed - at least no more than where any other Americans were concerned. But since most African American live in predominately Black communities that are also poor communities, the propagandists can go directly to one community, point out the negative and low and behold all the faces on deviates will be Black and this can be done over and over again, on community after another all across the country - Atlanta, Chicago, Detroit, New York, etc. Every time the media wants to talk about drugs, prostitution, crime, or anything else negative or immoral they head straight for a predominately Black city, a predominately Black town, a predominately Black community - making sure to bypass all the predominately white towns, and communties indulging in such activities leaving a false image of it somehow being only Black behavior. I think to have such a one track mind believing negative stereo-types of African Americans is not different that believing that because you know of some Black people that are crazy, you then assume that all Black people are crazy, and worse, because they are black and not because of whatever illness they may have; or its as insane as me being a person from the deep south, growing up before intergration believing that every white person I see wants to lynch me or make me a slave.
sunnubian,

the scorn that some of us have for the black race proves that the residual behavior from slavery is still present....when many of us were convinced to think low of ourselves without seeing what forces placed us in the situation we were in.....they know damn well none of these behaviors are exclusive to blacks....but phrasing it as such makes them feel better about themselves......
This came from another Black discussion board.
quote:
General - Racist creator of Ghettopoly wrote me!!! Subscribe
From: jusrhymz Oct-11 4:30 am
To: ALL (1 of 64)

56078.1

The bastard wrote me back. I noticed the civil responses got nothing out of him, so I got gully on his asian ass. All he had to say was....

To: jusrhymz@blackvoices.com
Subject: Re: I want to order 10 Games Sir
From: David Chang Add to Contacts
Date: Wed, Oct 8 2003 3:43:29 AM -0700 (PDT


Go fuck yourself you loser.

jusrhymz@blackvoices.com wrote:

SIKE

YOU RACIST ASIAN PIECE OF SHIT. How dare insult
my people, with a game you call "fun." You come
to this country my ancestors built for free,
and you disrespect black people who are trying
to rise back to power with this crap. You claim
to be insulting asians BUT WHERE IS THAT ASIANOPOLY GAME you sick
RACIST needle dick bastard?

I have an Idea.

"Chinkopoly" or "Slanteyeopoly"

We could use Massage Parlors instead of
crackhouses.

Asian Sweatshop Manufacturing Buildings instead of
hotels.

For pieces we can use...

Chop Sticks.

Done up Finger Nails since you all own nail
shops.

Asian prostitutes (lots of white boys use them
right).

and of COURSE my favorite

Atomic Bomb!

Properties will be ASIAN COLONIES of the
british, and some of the chance cards will say
shit like COLLECT 200 For Temporary Fuck from a
white man or some shit. If you want to insult
us, it's war then.





Obviously, if Chang though all of this was so funny, he would have laughed it off, but instead he said with a very hot head Go fuck yourself you loser.

Apparently it's not so funny, and he continues to try to sell the games.

Perhaps the tactic of bait and switch should continue? The law of two wrongs [not wongs] making a right.

>

... its time for Prosperity


> > >



An African American Board Game Of Wealth & Success.

The Dark Side of Ghettopoly, Which Speaks to the Rarity of Black Men Who have Not been subjects to Felony Penal Incarceration!

In addition, untold numbers of truly innocent Black men and women have been, still are, and/or continue to be, illegally incarcerated, due to:

A. Lack of competent representation, in a defense attorney, elected representative, and/or public outcry in behalf of those who are punished for crimes not committed.

B. Overzealous city or county prosecutors.

C. Biased juries.

D. A failing judicial system.

It is certain that anyone who is subjected to unwarranted, illegal incarceration would be extremely angry, and/or has the prospect of being extremely violent upon release from a "Pelican Bay", CIW, Corcoran, Chow Chilla, etc., as it relates to felony penal incarceration! A few years ago, corrupt Corcoran prison guards were exhonorated for inciting for their personal enjoyment, or gambling for entertainment, the very inhumane promotion of "human cock fights" between prison inmates


"A necessary evil?

Pelican Bay State Prison houses 'the worst of the worst' in the starkest isolation imaginable. but these 'supermax' units are turning inmates into mental cases.

By Vince Beiser

Special to The Times

October 19, 2003

It's quiet in pod C5, deep inside Pelican Bay State Prison's Security Housing Unit, home to about 1,200 of California's most violent offenders. There are no sounds from outside, because there are no windows"”only a skylight high overhead, through which gray daylight seeps into the bare quadrangle facing the pod's eight cells, stacked four on four. All that can be heard are a few subdued voices, and the occasional thunderous sound of a flushing toilet reverberating off the blank concrete walls.

This is not the crowded, clamorous kind of prison you see in the movies. The SHU, as it's known, is a starkly efficient place of electronically controlled doors and featureless concrete and steel. Occasionally, the monotony is punctured by bursts of noise and violence. Sometimes inmates scream at guards, other inmates, or themselves. Sometimes there is the clangorous racket of a recalcitrant prisoner being forcibly extracted from his cell. But most of the time, nothing happens. Almost nothing is permitted to happen. That's the idea of the SHU.

If you're an inmate in a regular prison"”even a maximum-security prison, which the other two wings of Pelican Bay are"”most days you can play basketball in the yard or cards in the day room, work in the laundry room or dining hall and take meals with the other men on your tier.

In the SHU, there are no jobs, no activities, hardly any educational programs and barely any human contact. You are locked in your 8-by-10-foot cell almost around the clock. You can't see the other prisoners in the cells adjoining yours, nor the guards watching from a central observation booth. Most of the time, all you can see through the fingertip-sized perforations in your cell's solid steel door is the wall of the eight-cell pod, the larger cage containing your cage. Guards deliver your meals. Once a day, the remote-controlled cell door grinds open, and you get 90 minutes to spend alone in a walled-in courtyard"”a place more like the bottom of a mine shaft than an exercise yard. It's an environment about as restrictive and monotonous as human minds can design"”and, perhaps, as human minds can tolerate.

Pelican Bay, which sprawls over 275 acres just south of the Oregon border, in a Tolkienesque region of misty mountains and ancient redwood forests, was among the first of a wave of new prisons equipped with ultra-restrictive "supermax" lockups that have proliferated nationwide in recent years. There are as many as 20,000 inmates housed in such facilities in at least 30 states.

California has three SHUs for men in its Pelican Bay, Corcoran and Tehachapi lockups, plus one for women in Valley State Prison in Chowchilla. They house about 3,000 convicts in all. But Pelican Bay is the one with the hardest cons and the harshest conditions, the end of the line for the inmates whom correctional officials call "the worst of the worst."

Like their counterparts in other states, California corrections officials say they need SHUs to control incorrigibly violent cons in the state's vast archipelago of prisons, teeming with nearly 160,000 inmates. While no one could argue with that goal, there are significant concerns about the tactic. For starters, it's not clear to what extent SHUs are indeed reducing prison violence.

More disturbingly, there's a growing worry that supermaxes"”long decried by prisoner advocates as dangerous to the mental health of inmates"”may be breeding danger for the general public.

Psychiatrists, activists and some correctional officials say the intense isolation of supermaxes is producing prisoners who are uncontrollably furious and sometimes violently deranged. Most of those prisoners will one day be set free. In the past three years, in fact, nearly 1,000 California SHU inmates at the end of their sentences were moved to less-restrictive prisons for just a few weeks, and then released.

And at least 403 inmates were paroled without even that intermediate step: They were taken straight from the solitary cells where they spent years marinating in their rage, handed $200 in gate money and put on a bus to rejoin the rest of us.

"T.C.," a Pelican Bay SHU inmate who, like most of the nearly two dozen current and former SHU prisoners interviewed for this article did not want his name published, wrote: "How does society expect a person to act once he has been released from the SHU, in most cases after spending years back here? There are things that happen here which people out there are never aware of; these things tend to build anger and hate in some persons, and if these persons don't have anyone to talk to, or complain to, that anger and hate continues to grow. If that person paroles, he's now a human time bomb waiting to release all that anger and hate, waiting to explode."

you can hardly blame prison authorities for liking the idea of supermaxes. Prison guards are spit on, screamed at and assaulted daily. Reducing the chances of being stabbed in the neck with a sharpened toothbrush is understandably a higher priority for them than fretting over how solitary confinement might change an inmate's mood.

But America's supermaxes have been denounced as inhumane by organizations from the ACLU to the United Nations. Fistfuls of lawsuits have been filed in recent years challenging conditions in supermaxes from California to Massachusetts. Some have succeeded in forcing changes. The latest, a suit on behalf of a Pelican Bay inmate charging that long-term SHU confinement constitutes cruel and unusual punishment, is slated to go to trial in December. So far, the courts have upheld the constitutionality of supermax-style imprisonment. But just because they're legal doesn't necessarily mean they're good policy. In fact, Democratic state Sen. Gloria Romero of Los Angeles, head of the Senate's Select Committee on the California Correctional System, has launched a campaign to investigate how supermaxes are affecting prisoners"”and the public.

No question the Pelican Bay SHU holds a great many extraordinarily malicious men. Most of California's top prison gang leaders are there, including such luminaries as Aryan Brotherhood shot-callers Paul "Cornfed" Schneider and Dale Bretches, the original owners of the dogs that mauled a San Francisco woman to death in 2001. The day before my visit there this year, a SHU inmate who was appearing in court stabbed his own lawyer with an ice pick-like shank he apparently had hidden in what a Pelican Bay spokesman referred to as his "keister."

There is considerable debate, however, about whether everyone in the SHU deserves to be there. No one is in the SHU for crimes they committed on the streets; you get sent there for doing something while you're in prison.

This works in two ways. The first is straightforward: If you violate prison rules"”say, being caught with drugs or for attacking another inmate"”you can be sent to the SHU for a set period of time as punishment.

The second is more ambiguous: Simply being declared a member or associate of a prison gang lands you in the SHU"”indefinitely. About half the state's SHU inmates are in for this reason. Aside from getting paroled or going certifiably insane, the only way a "gang-validated" inmate can be released from the SHU is by "debriefing""”confessing everything he knows about other gang members, which entails obvious risks"”or by convincing prison officials that he has been free from gang activity for six years.

"Prison gang members and associates are responsible for the largest percentage of violence in our institutions," says Steve Moore, the head of gang-related issues for the California Department of Corrections. "The idea is to extract those people from the general population."

Corrections officials and prisoners agree that California's half-dozen major prison gangs"”Nazi Low Riders, Aryan Brotherhood, Black Guerrilla Family and several Latino factions"”are behind a hefty chunk, though certainly not all, of the trouble in prisons statewide, from stabbings to drug dealing. And as the number of people cycling through the prison system has swelled in recent years, some of those gangs are believed to have begun forging increasingly close links with street gangs on the outside.

Activists and inmates, however, charge that the department's criteria for determining gang membership are overly broad, sending many undeserving inmates to supermax solitary. SHU inmates in Corcoran and Pelican Bay have staged two hunger strikes in the past two years over the issue, and Romero convened a hearing in September to investigate the corrections department's policy of identifying gang members. "I have very serious concerns about the validation process," Romero said at the hearing, held in Los Angeles. "In this time of constrained budgets, it's a good time to look at who is going into SHUs and whether they should really be there."

In response to these criticisms, Moore ordered a review of all gang validations. As of September, his office had looked at several hundred cases and found 17 that didn't pass muster.

Regardless of why prisoners are put in the SHU, perhaps the most pressing concern for the public is the inmates' mental states upon release. Dr. Stuart Grassian, a Boston psychiatrist who lectured at Harvard Medical School, has been studying the effects of solitary confinement for more than two decades, during which time he has examined more than 100 supermax prisoners, including 50 at Pelican Bay. His conclusion: Supermax prisons can literally drive inmates crazy.

"There are many scores of cases of people who never suffered psychiatric illnesses and developed them while incarcerated in supermaxes," he says. Other mental health professionals agree. "I've seen many prisoners with no history of mental illness who after some time in the SHU started cutting themselves," says Dr. Terry Kupers, an Oakland-based psychiatrist with decades of experience in prison work. "I've almost never seen self-mutilation among adult males anywhere else, but it's very common in SHUs." At the landmark Madrid v. Gomez federal trial in 1995 over conditions at Pelican Bay, even the prison's senior staff psychologist acknowledged seeing psychiatric deterioration among some SHU prisoners.

Supermax prisoners often develop similar symptoms, Grassian says. These include hallucinations; hypersensitivity to external stimuli; paranoia; panic attacks; hostile fantasies involving revenge, torture and mutilation; and violent or self-destructive outbursts, to the extent of gouging out one's eyes, smearing oneself with feces or biting chunks of flesh from one's own body.

Take Matthew Lowe, convicted of armed robbery, assault on a peace officer and grand theft auto. During his three years in the Pelican Bay SHU, Lowe never got to the point of biting off pieces of his sizable biceps, but in other ways he fits Grassian's diagnosis of a mentally ill inmate. Lowe is a big guy in baggy jeans and a motorcycle-shop sweatshirt, with a tiny soul patch on his chin and tattoos on his neck and fingers. At 38, he has spent most of his life behind bars, but he says his time in the SHU changed him in a way prison never had before.

"Them years of sitting in that little cell"”it did something to me, I don't even know what," says Lowe, sitting on a couch in his girlfriend's tidy bungalow in a blue-collar suburb of San Francisco. "I only had conversations with about five or six people in three years. I'd sit in there and just think about doing crazy [stuff] all the time, like Tim McVeigh-type [stuff]. Your average prison doesn't do that to you." After years of obsessively ruminating about blowing up buildings and shooting cops, Lowe was finally paroled last year. He was taken from his SHU cell, shifted to San Quentin for a few days and then let out onto the streets of Marin County.

So far, he's doing all right, working as a roof-gutter installer and going to AA meetings. But he scares himself with how jumpy and paranoid he has become. "So many times I've come so close to snapping since I got out," he says. "One time in a store, someone cut in front of me in line"”a 50-year-old guy, I don't think he even realized it. I had to catch myself, because my first thought was just to smash him."

penal solitary confinement was essentially invented in the united States. In the late 1700s, whips and stocks were the preferred tools of public punishment. But reformers argued that by isolating criminals, their consciences would naturally lead to repenting their evil ways.

In 1790, Pennsylvania opened the first prison designed for this purpose, dubbed a "penitentiary." Several American states and European nations soon followed suit. But the penitentiaries gradually fell out of favor as evidence began to mount that they were often driving inmates mad. As the Supreme Court observed in an 1890 ruling condemning the penitentiary system: "A considerable number of prisoners fell, after even a short confinement, into a semi-fatuous condition . . . and others became violently insane; others still, committed suicide; while those who stood the ordeal better were not generally reformed."

Still, solitary confinement continued to be used as a short-term punishment for inmates. But the idea of keeping large numbers of convicts permanently in such severe conditions didn't return until the 1980s, as America's prison population began mushrooming. Driven largely by tough anti-drug and "three-strikes"-type mandatory minimum sentencing laws, the number of Americans behind bars has quadrupled since 1980 to an all-time high of about 2 million today. In the same get-tough-on-criminals spirit, many states have also cut back educational programs, exercise facilities and other "perks" for prisoners. Violence grew apace. Desperate to restore order to the federal maximum-security lockup at Marion, Ill., authorities in 1983 put the entire facility on indefinite lockdown. Under the administrations of then-Gov. George Deukmejian and then-Corrections Department head James Rowland, California was among the first states to copy the concept, opening SHUs at Corcoran in 1988, and Pelican Bay in 1989.

Pelican Bay came under fire almost right away, both over alleged abuses by guards and conditions in the SHU. In the Madrid v. Gomez decision, U.S. District Court Judge Thelton Henderson ruled that there was a "pattern of brutality" by the guards. On whether the SHU itself was damaging to inmates' mental health, he ruled that while the SHU "may press the outer bounds of what most humans can psychologically tolerate" and could seriously exacerbate previously existing mental illnesses, there was not enough proof to show that it could drive a sane man mad.

Pelican Bay instituted several reforms as a result of the case, including creating a 127-bed psychiatric unit and beefing up its mental-health staff to a total of 79. As far as the prison was concerned, that took care of the problem. "We moved all of those with mental illnesses into the [psychiatric unit] after the Madrid decision," declares Rawland Swift, who, until recently, was the Pelican Bay spokesman. Certainly, the SHU's conditions aren't as extreme as those that so appalled the 1890 Supreme Court. Pelican Bay SHU inmates can talk to others in neighboring cells, receive letters and see visitors (through security glass) on weekends. Those who can afford them have TVs (though they can only watch during the day and must listen through earphones). Most occasionally leave their cells for brief excursions to court or for medical treatment.

A select number of SHU inmates even have cellmates, but most are housed alone, and the overwhelming bulk of their time is spent in a small concrete and steel box. It seems entirely possible that a good many SHU inmates are losing their grip on reality"”whether their keepers acknowledge it or not.

Prisoners are given mental-health attention if their guards"”hardly experts in such matters"”deem their behavior strange enough to warrant an examination. Swift told me that while seemingly troubled prisoners are often taken to the psychiatric unit for evaluation, the psychiatrists almost always send them back, saying, "He's got a behavioral problem, not a mental health problem." This echoes disturbingly a finding of the judge in the Madrid decision: "It is clear . . . that an overburdened, and sometimes indifferent, mental health staff is far too quick to dismiss an inmate as a 'malingerer' and thus deny him needed treatment."

Almost all of the inmates I interviewed (and at least one correctional officer who did not want to be named) said they had seen other prisoners suffer serious mental deterioration in the SHU"”screaming, banging on doors, cutting themselves. "I have seen plenty of people lose their sanity while in the SHU. I used to think that they were faking it . . . but once being around them for a while you could see that it was no act," writes Pelican Bay SHU inmate Otis Booker. "When you hear a guy holding a conversation with himself, or calling out cadences to exercises that he's not even doing or growling out animal sounds all day, you know something's not right."

Grassian estimates that as many as one-third of all supermax inmates are suffering some kind of psychiatric trouble"”most of which goes undiagnosed. "A guard may see a prisoner hiding under a blanket, obviously delusional, but as long as he's not screaming or throwing feces, he's OK as far as they're concerned," Grassian says.

All of which could help explain the case of Erik Scott January, convicted of armed robbery. His mother, Long Beach resident Laura Daniher, says that before he was sent to the Corcoran SHU in 1997, January had no history of mental health problems. After a couple of years in the SHU, though, he started raving about the evil spirits he saw dancing on the walls.

In a letter to her from mid-2001, January writes relatively lucidly for most of two pages, asking about her house and other chitchat"”and then mentions that he has been seeing things and experiencing other "strange occurrences." A few months later, another letter makes it apparent he has left reality far behind: "I am Tutankamen mother. . . . take a time to pray to your hi Hitler power of white skin because I need some hand in time I need hand time handtime . . . god is the sun I am the sun I am Satan I am Lucifer."

Vanessa Filley, a member of California Prison Focus, a San Francisco-based advocacy group, visited January early last year and found him "in a delusional state," suffering "visual hallucinations." In a letter to the warden asking that January be taken out of the SHU, Filley states that she was told by a Corcoran psychiatrist that January "is not dysfunctional to the point of forced intervention, therefore barring any specific behavior we can't do anything." At the time of this writing, January was still in the SHU.

certainly, shus don't drive everyone over the threshold of clinical insanity. But they may have dangerous effects short of that. What happens when you take a man who had antisocial and violent impulses to begin with, lock him in a cell by himself for five or 10 years, and then let him out?

"It's like keeping a dog that has bitten someone in a cage, kicking it and beating it all the time until it gets as crazy and vicious as it can be, and then one day you open the cage and run away," Grassian says. "Taking someone straight from the Pelican Bay SHU and sending them back to San Francisco or Los Angeles is about as dangerous a thing as you can do."

Even some corrections officials agree. "From my experience as a prison administrator, the prolonged confinement of inmates with little or no contact with others will only make people worse," Jerry Enomoto, a former California director of corrections, said when the Madrid lawsuit first hit the courts. (Current Department of Corrections director Ed Alameida did not respond to several requests for an interview.)

Some people, of course, are less affected by the SHU than others. But at best, it seems, coming out of the SHU often leaves prisoners dangerously ill-equipped to cope with the stress of being around other people.

"Tony" is a 30-year-old Latino and former gangbanger with a generous mustache and hair cropped so short you can see the scars on his head. He has done time in both the Corcoran and Pelican Bay SHUs. Since his parole last year, he has been living with his mom in a quiet Bay Area town and working as a diesel mechanic. On the spring afternoon I met him, an ancient little dog was asleep on a pillow in the front yard next to Tony's massive weight set.

Like Matthew Lowe, Tony was sent straight home from the SHU after a few days in San Quentin. "On my first day out, my mom took me to the grocery store," he says. "I blew up on a couple of people. There was some woman who came up about five feet behind me, and I turned and said, 'Don't stand so close to me!' " Months later, he still breaks out in hot sweats when he's out in crowds. The day before, he says he found himself moving warily away from an elderly woman standing behind him in line at the post office. "I'm not the same," he says. "Look at me, I'm paranoid of a 90-year-old lady in the post office. It's from being so isolated. No wonder people who've been in five or six years come out and kill people."

There have been at least a few hair-raisingly brutal crimes committed by convicts fresh out of supermaxes. In 1992, one day after getting out of the Pelican Bay SHU, Robert Lee Davenport, 24, kidnapped, beat and raped a woman in El Cerrito. In 1995, within a week of his release from the same facility, Robert Walter Scully, 36, killed a Sonoma County sheriff's deputy, took hostages and barricaded himself inside a house in a standoff with police before finally surrendering.

Judging from the media coverage and conversations with people who remember these cases, it doesn't seem that anyone made the connection, or pointed to the SHUs as possibly having contributed to crimes committed by former SHU inmates. Grassian says he has served as consultant on more than a dozen similar cases nationwide. There may be more crimes to add to this list, but no one keeps track of what happens to SHU inmates as a group after they are freed to their parole officers. They are just another former con.

According to Department of Corrections statistics, killings in California prisons dropped dramatically in the years immediately after the Corcoran and Pelican Bay SHUs opened. But the total rate of assaults in the state prisons has been rising since. As of 2000, the inmate-on-inmate assault rate was just as high as in the years before the SHUs opened, and the rate of armed assaults on staff was even higher. Despite its oppressive security, there were 221 assaults in the Pelican Bay SHU last year"”inmates assaulting guards when they are taken to court, for example, or by ingenious methods such as firing homemade blowguns though the perforations in their cell doors. More ominously, in the past two years federal prosecutors have charged more than a dozen members of two prison gangs with directing"”via letters and visitors"”scores of murders and attempted murders in prisons around the country from their cells in the Pelican Bay SHU.

Moore is aware of all this. But, he says, the SHUs are better than nothing. "We have much better investigative tools with the gang leaders in the SHUs," he says. "We know where they are. We can monitor them more closely. Will we ever totally stop them? No. But are we hindering them? Yes. And the best way we've found so far to do that is the SHU."

This is a common view among supermax supporters. Still, as a 1999 National Institute of Corrections report on these facilities points out, "There exists little or no hard data comparing such perceived impacts on entire systems versus the fiscal cost to gain such results." That's no small matter, considering how prodigiously expensive supermaxes are. Taxpayers forked over $218 million to build Pelican Bay, and spend $115 million every year to keep it running. It costs California about $28,000 per year to hold an average prisoner, but SHU inmates, with their elaborate security measures, cost substantially more. The Department of Corrections won't provide an exact figure, but most experts estimate the cost is as much as two or three times greater.

"We should definitely be looking at ways to reduce the number of inmates in SHUs," says state Sen. Romero, who visited Pelican Bay in June. "We may not like the fact that someone is a gang member, but is that a reason to throw them in this prison-in-a-prison? I'm not convinced of that, especially given the high costs." She aims to keep up pressure on the corrections department to modify its gang-validation policy, and to have more research done into what happens to SHU inmates after they are released.

It makes more sense, says Charles Carbone, an attorney with California Prison Focus, to deal with chronic violent offenders on a case-by-case basis, rather than shovel everyone who might be involved in violence into SHUs. "The purpose of the SHU can be served in each prison by administrative segregation," he says, referring to a type of solitary confinement that's not as restrictive and long. "But even then, those people should not be cut off from rehabilitative programs. In fact, they should get more. Cutting them off completely from all stimulation does nobody any good."

Psychiatrist Kupers, among others, believes the main cause of the surge in violence in the '80s was overcrowding and the idleness that resulted from programs being cut. "If you take everything away, prisoners become desperate, and therefore uncontrollable," he says. "Crowding, idleness and lack of rehabilitation cause violence. And no amount of supermaxes will stop that."

Even if you believe SHUs are necessary, Grassian says, they can be modified to make them more humane. In particular, Grassian recommends creating a transitional program to slowly reintroduce inmates to interaction with other people, something that happens in several other states. At present, with the exception of prisoners who are debriefed, the only pre-release preparation Pelican Bay SHU inmates are offered is a voluntary program that primarily consists of watching videos.

Making visits easier could also ease the transition, with prisoners housed in SHU facilities closer to home. Most experts agree that prisoners who maintain family ties generally do better after release. But Pelican Bay is a solid 14-hour drive from Los Angeles, its biggest single source of inmates; getting up there is a challenge for many families. "That visiting room is never full, even though there are over 1,000 people in the SHU," says Oakland resident Helen Grimes, who makes the trek almost every month to visit her son.

No such changes seem likely to happen soon, however. While the current state budget boosts corrections spending overall, it cut funds for inmate-related programs. Gov. Gray Davis understood well that most voters are not especially concerned about what happens to prisoners in SHUs or elsewhere. For them, the moral equation seems simple: Prisoners broke the law; let them suffer the consequences.

But most of the prisoners locked away in the maddening solitude of the SHUs will one day be freed to return to our midst"”some of them angrier, more impulsive and more unbalanced than ever. And we will all have to live with those consequences."

______________________________________

On the Corrupt Corcoran Prison Guards Exhonorated, and Other Improprieties!

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on October 20, 2003 at 12:03 AM.]
Ain't no body, like the majestic African body, all dressed up in chains and shackles. Afterall, that's what the African wore when he arrived here in 1619. All those chaines, shackles, alllllllllll that splendiferous NAKEDNESS. Slavery. Slavery. Slavery. 'Tis all it is. AFRICAN MEN. Whatever you did to get yourself into this SHU situation, was it worth it??????? You've been damn fools long enough. Be the MAJESTIC Man you are and were meant to be!! You're so handsome, when you have it allllll together. No one can compete. Your mother didn't bring you to this planet to get yourself into your situation. You shouldn't have been allowed to make HER cry. You didn't come to Earth all by yourself. Those labor pains were a *itch!!! WAKE-UP!!!!!!!
While I dont agree with Ghettopoly David Chang did make some valid points. He stated why there wasnt an outcry when black rappers used words like "chinky eyed" in their rap songs. He also stated that the game is called ghettopoly not blackopoly (since ghettos are not just black) so chinkopoly will not be a fair comparison. He also pointed out that theere were other races in the ghettopoly game including asians and whites but the media seemed to just focus on the black stereotypes. Lastly he admits hip hop inspired him.

To him I would say that if the Asian community spoke up a bit more then blacks would watch what they say in rap music and on tv. But like I said he brought up some good points.
What rapper made the racist remark "chinky eyed" when it came to referencing someone of East Asian descent? It sounds like Mr. Chang is trying to deflect critcism of his board game by attempting to shift focus on an issue that is non-existent. Mr. Chang was wrong and so was Urban Outfitters for putting that mess out.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
I would think "chinky-eyed" is a racist usage, regardless of what it referred to. To put it in perspective, imagine the term "niggery lips" used to describe pouty lips. Even if it's used to describe somebody white or Asian, and even if it's meant as a compliment to their full lips, I personally would have a problem with the term. The use of "chinky-eyed" is no different.

That doesn't give him the right to expect no protest about Ghettopoly, though. Just because the Asian community is not vocal about racial slights against them, doesn't mean that other people should be silent when Asians offend us.
quote:
He also stated that the game is called ghettopoly not blackopoly (since ghettos are not just black) so chinkopoly will not be a fair comparison.

Do you believe everything someone tells you?
You make it sound like David Chang is an honorable man... "he's just misunderstood", huh? Maverick?

Click over onto the GHETTOPOLY website and see if you see anyone else "in the ghetto" besides Black people (caricatures)...

Do you own or have you seen the game for yourself?
If not you can testify to the truth of it but the whole promotion makes Ghetto synonomous with Black. I know you're not gonna pretend like you can't see that?

And people really need to stop trying to include MUSIC & COMEDY into the equation when few have anything to say about the MOVIES... NO ASIANS complained about RUSH HOUR... I don't see him referring to that as an example like the "chinky eyed" thing.

And yes, if he or you are going to repeat that it showed be attributed to its source. Which rapper said it and/or what song?
Oh no not you again. Do you listen to hip hop yourself Nmaginate? If you watched BET's 106 and Park a year ago there was an Asian rapper named Jin who won a freestyle battle against a black rapper who made some racially insensitive remarks to Jin involving Chinese egg rolls. Granted he didnt complain but like I said if Asians spoke up... I have also heard several rappers use the word chinky eyed or slanted eyed in their raps to describe certain females. I will get you their names in due course but at the top of my head the only rappers I can remember by name using the words are a white rapper named Milkbone on a Death Row compilation album, Foxy Brown who may have been using it to describe herself but I will check on that and Chino XL who rhymed that he "could kill more slanted eyes than the Japanese Earthquake". But I guess that isnt enough proof for you Nmaginate is it? You probably want me to play the records for you until you are satisfied right? Better yet we can both stop being intellectually lazy and look it up in google or you yourself could ask David Chang where he heard those rhymes? Just a suggestion.

Good point on the ghettopoly term but couldnt one use a less obvious offensive title than chinkopoly?
Ah!!!

What race is CHINO XL?

And if FOXY BROWN used it referencing herself... WHERE IS THE OFFENSE?

AND you call 106 & Park "Rap Music" as in industry driven/created? Please!!!!!!!!!!!

Just say that you have something against rap music and be done with it. I doubt very seriously that anyone on this board is "happy" with the state of affairs with rap music but to demonize it and to create the false impression that BLACKS are constantly disrespecting others (which is what most would gather from the original context here) then you need to be EXPOSED for the FRAUD you are!

All of those references that you could think of would not qualify in the way you originally projected them.

You are about as bad a WHITE RACIST because you don't see that there are always stereotypical portrayals of people in the media and entertainment...

Comedians BLACK & WHITE (and otherwise) talk about RACE and use stereotypes of both their own and other races as a NORM... There are NO exceptions (by race).

MOVIE either big-screen or broadcast do also.

Essentially, I doubt anyone in this country would ever speak up if it wasn't for the long tradition of Black people standing up... Seems to me others would just about take it lying down save maybe Native Americans.

And to cite a White Rapper as one to use a 'questionable' race reference in the context we're talking about completely shatters your credibility... Maverick!
quote:
Better yet we can both stop being intellectually lazy and look it up in google or you yourself could ask David Chang where he heard those rhymes? Just a suggestion.


You brought it up because you believe everything you here. The responsibility falls on you. I asked you to support your claims or what you decided to parrot.

I'm not like you, so even if I did ask Chang that doesn't mean I will believe everything he says verbatim.

HAVE YOU EVER LISTEN TO COMEDIANS OF ALL RACES TALK ABOUT RACE?

What part of the movies where White people try to act "Black" (stereotypically so) have you missed? How many commercials doing the same have you missed?

Certainly, as much as WHITE PEOPLE and others would like to believe Black people are not that uptight about racial references otherwise you would here a lot more protest if we were trying to make an issue out of every little thing to come along.

Maverick,
I can't help your ignorance... and your gullibility.
Nmaginate,

the great "other than black" defenders are at it again....when it is all said and done, we'll find out that they were all warped white people satisfying some sick fetish they have....I have to give black people the benefit of the doubt....but then the connerly's, elders, hamblins, sowell, armstrongwilliams are batting in that neighborhood of pathological, illogical delusional, unrealistic thinking.......these cats could defend toliet paper against schit because one is brown and the other is white.......they are something else.....
I would think "chinky-eyed" is a racist usage, regardless of what it referred to. To put it in perspective, imagine the term "niggery lips" used to describe pouty lips. Even if it's used to describe somebody white or Asian, and even if it's meant as a compliment to their full lips, I personally would have a problem with the term. The use of "chinky-eyed" is no different.

I don't see why this makes Maverick a hip-hop hater. I don't see why it makes ME a hip hop hater. or a "other-than-black-sympathizer." I don't understand why this is hard to understand. If niggery-lipped would be offensive, then chinky-eyed would be, as well. This is a side issue, but if we can't grasp this, then what's the point?

Maverick... did you say that Miilkbone was signed to Death Row?!?!?!?! I wondered whatever happened to him. And I'm from Jersey & didn't even know. And Chino XL is African-American & Puerto Rican.
quote:
Ghettopoly is a game that the NAACP has identified as insensative to minorities. Hasbro has issued the owner of Ghettopoly a cease and decist order because they belive they have prioritory rights. Urban Outfitters, the single national retailer of the game pulled the games off of their shelves and have decided it would not be in their best interest to reorder them. Yahoo, and ebay both have disallowed the game from being sold on their respective sites.

Presently you are sponsoring 'board games' at About.com, after careful examination it has been determined that the forum moderator for "Board Games" discussions is promoting [Ghettopoly]. Of all of the threads in his forum, most discussions average 2 posts. However, for Ghettopoly, he has posted four of his own messages to one thread, he has deleted one [and only] very serious objection to the game, he has opened a poll about the game that has a supposid participation of over 700 votes. The major problem with the poll is, the whole forum doesn't get that much participation all together. Clearly, he should have know the poll was being stuffed. In order to vote you must be registered, so it just doesn't make sense that that many 'new' people would sign up just to vote but only half of 1% choose to comment about it, it just doesn't make sense. Lastly, the moderator has also closed a[nother] discussion that he apparently felt didn't go in the direction of where he wanted it to go. I invite you to visit the site and view the evidence for yourself and come to your own conclusions. I've done my homework, the game boards forum only has about 4 regular members, and an additional 3 occasional members. The overwhelming majority of the threads are orginated by the moderator most of which only has 2 replys. Frankly, I can't image paying to sponsor such a low interest area but that is your business.

I am writing [to] you because I see your sponsorhip of the game board forum at About.com as sponsorship of what they are promoting, most specifically racism in the form of the promotion of Ghettopoly by the forum's moderator. Therefore I am requesting that you reconsider your sponsorship, perhaps until such time that the forum is moderated in a reasonable fashion.


This letter will be forwared to the NAACP, and posted on no less than 5 African American Discussion Boards in two weeks if your sponsorship on the Game Board forum at About.com is unchanged.




The above letter was sent to the two sponsors of the 'board game' forum on About.com one hour ago. (now I got two weeks to find 4 other AA boards, Big Grin)

>

... its time for Prosperity


> > >



An African American Board Game Of Wealth & Success.

So because I point out something that others might have found offensive then I am a hip hop hater? Okay if I pointed out that I can name rappers who have used the terms cracker and honky in their raps what would you say to that Nmaginate and Vox? I guess these arent meant to be racial slurs right?

Oh a rapper named Ras Kass used the term chinky eyed to describe himself in the magazine XXL June issue 2003. So you still doubt that some black rappers could have used the term? Nmaginate you keep on asking whats the point. I thought someone as smart as you would get the point but then again you are someone who cant seem to tell the difference between a page and a whole book.
quote:
Okay if I pointed out that I can name rappers who have used the terms cracker and honky in their raps what would you say to that Nmaginate and Vox? I guess these arent meant to be racial slurs right?


Maverick,

I'll stop short of calling you the appropriate name... but VOX was on your side on this!!!!!!!!

Learn how to read to comprehend!

I can't help if damn near every time you say something you're half-cocked.
"IF I could..." That's just it with you "IF".

What the hell is your problem?
Who has said that rappers haven't used racial slurs? WHO?

Just because I asked you to verify what the hell you say when you have a track record of coming up short on facts... DON'T GET MAD AT ME! BOOK/PAGE... you have repeatedly shown you inability to READ!

Again, VOX stated an opinion that was similar to yours. But in your haste you aSSumed that he opposed you.
rotflmao rotflmao
No more words to describe that! Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by maverick:
Next time maybe you shouldnt make assumptions about someone you dont know. You assumed I just took David Chang's word as truth without verifying it. You accuse me and others of making assumptions but you do exactly the same thing. Talk about being hypocritical. Check yourself before you check others.

LEARN TO READ TO COMPREHEND
quote:
Do you believe everything someone tells you?
You make it sound like David Chang is an honorable man... "he's just misunderstood", huh? Maverick?

Click over onto the GHETTOPOLY website and see if you see anyone else "in the ghetto" besides Black people (caricatures)...

Do you own or have you seen the game for yourself?
If not you can testify to the truth of it but the whole promotion makes Ghetto synonomous with Black. I know you're not gonna pretend like you can't see that?

And people really need to stop trying to include MUSIC & COMEDY into the equation when few have anything to say about the MOVIES... NO ASIANS complained about RUSH HOUR... I don't see him referring to that as an example like the "chinky eyed" thing.

And yes, if he or you are going to repeat that it should be attributed to its source. Which rapper said it and/or what song?

MAVERICK,

Where do you see the assumption? When did I say that I doubt if a Rapper ever used derogatory terms. I simply asked you to for an exact source. And, Maverick, you will very seldom see me REPEATING what somebody else say without linking to a source article or some source relative to the topic. Saves the guess work...

Now, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I ASKED YOU TO VERIFY YOUR CLAIMS?

If you're gonna come here claiming something be able to say ON THE SPOT what the SOURCE is. No one should have to ask you for it. Now, especially when you come here talkinbout, "He has some good points..." on a controversial subject you better be able to prove what you say when you say it.

You can best believe that whenever you have something half-baked and come off half-cocked I'll have something to say.

Talk about VERIFICATION...
quote:
Good point on the ghettopoly term but couldnt one use a less obvious offensive title than chinkopoly?

It seems like you missed that one, huh?
"Chang makes some good points... He said Ghetto, not Blackopoly..."

Why was that one so hard for you to "verify" on your own?
(And please tell me if the other races that are supposedly depicted in the game are portrayed as negatively as the Black ones. I would be interested - since you apparently are - in knowing the absolute truth on that one.)

And NO! I don't think ChinkOpoly is good. But I can help but wonder why that is an issue here.

[1] No one here used it.

[2] The "link" or QUOTE (how about that a quote!) that it came from used it in the context of "How would you like it if..." inwhich the intent is to help Chang, in this case, to see how offensive Ghettopoly is to Blacks by being confronted with things he may be sensitive to.

[3] Now if you say "Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right" then I'll have to ask you again, basically, WHY ARE YOU SAYING CHANG HAS SOME GOOD POINTS (in essence saying he has good reason to do as he has...) if he too is responding, supposedly, to negative/stereotypical references made about Asians in Hip-Hop?
Is he not committing the 2nd Wrong to Hip-Hops first? If you can see his "good points" how come you can't see the Chinkopoly's author's good ones?

It seems to me that you ALWAYS are soooooo willing to believe the worst about Black people and you are apparently less critical of others so much so that you bought that Ghettopoly Not Blackopoly crap Hook, Line and Sinker!

So forgive me if I'm not trying to here that crap and have it paraded as TRUTH!

1, 2, CHECKA! Microphone CHECKA! fro
MAVERICK?!?!?! What's the problem? I was siding with you! How could you have misread that?? On the "chinky-eyed" point, I agreed with you 100%, so I don't get it.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
[QUOTE] I was under the impression that he was Puerto Rican and perhaps Asian (mixed)...

VOX,
I would exactly want to know what the point is here. Perhaps you can tell me?


The point of pointing out his ethnicity was to counter whatever point you may have been implying by asking. The point of my input into the whole "chinky-eyed" sub-issue is just to make sure I'm representing what I think is the correct way to look at the issue. I feel Chang is right to complain about the "chinky-eyed" references in hip hip. But like I said in the same post, it really doesn't change the outrage we should correctly feel about Ghettopoly. I just don't like to disagree with correct points just because they come out of the mouth of a jackass like Chang. I'm not the type of guy who's like, "Rappers use racial slurs?! No they don't! Therefore, there's no justification for Ghettopoly." I'm the guy who's like, "You're right, they use racial slurs, BUT that doesn't provide a justification for Ghettopoly." The closer your position is to being totally correct, the more unassailable it is. That's my only point. I don't know what Mav's point is.
Gentlemen, your arguments are wonderful, however I must remind you to take some additionl action to purge us of the germ of Ghettopoly.

If you have not already done so, may I suggest that you communicate your opinions with one or more of the following:

On line petition (link listed in this thread). Sign and forward link.
Urban Outfitters, although they said they will no longer stock the game, its time for them to make a donation to 'The Urban League' as a form of penence.
Hasbro, they must be encouraged to sue Change for the rights infringement. The Cease and Desist order is not enough.
Yahoo, and Ebay to disclose the amount of games sold on their sites.
University of Rochester, to make a statement that they deplor what one of their graduates have created (Ghettopoly).
New York City council, letter of thanks for their public condemnation of the game, by the Black and Asian City councilmen.
NAACP, for their ceaseless efforts to put an end to derogatory images about Blacks.
Congressional Black Caucus, to make a statment on the matter.
About.com, to the sponsors of the 'game boards forum', telling them to divest their funding from the improper promotion of Ghettopoly.

As you could see there are many things that you could do in addition to the participation in the argument herein.
quote:
Originally posted by maverick:
Please dont misunderstand Our Emp and Vox. I never said I approved of Ghettopoly and I never will approve of it.


don't worry about me, I'm in favor of freedom of speech, even david chang's speech, however I also believe we have the right to speak out too.

The most important thing about this exercise is, many of our people are learning crtical skills that could be refashioned and reused to help us to defeat other matter of greater or lessor importance.

It's all about empowerment, that why we must take actual action, not just talk. Although talk has it's place.
quote:
HELLO PEOPLE. I'M DAVID CHANG FOUNDER OF GHETTOPLY. I am a Tawanese immigrant being an American since age 8. I graduated from the University of Rochester with a dual degree in Economics and Psychology!

I think Niggers take themselves too seriously! Chinese are hardworking peoples and Niggers come to America thinking they should get a free ride. Hell even the Spics work harder than Niggers and everyone knows Spics are lazy.

There is a reason the Asian population is the preferred Minority to the White peoples. We work harder then Niggers and Spics. Jamacains works hard, but they is stinky and smoke dope all day long.

I'm glad all of my White friends understand that NIggers just need to laugh a little after they wake up from their dope stupor.

Lighten up is a good phrase...

They keep mentioning slavery, okay Nigger, let me Ax you a question? How long ago was slavery??? My father operated a stereotypical Chinese Restaurant in New York. Yes he's a dumb chink, but my generation is blessed to have good relations with the White man.

Look at the Jews in Europe...they were ignorant and got their azzes gassed....but their children in America are doing better because they is not too dumb and they control the media.

Get a life, and get the game!!!

Much Love bro, PEACE!

David

Posted by DAVID CHANG YES ITS ME! at October 9, 2003 09:59 AM
The link

I don't believe that is him, but that is what he has brought out. that is precisely why action must be taken.
Hey Nmaginate I really dont give a damn about what you want to hear and I am not interested in getting into a debate with your self righteous ass. Tell you what why dont you go to the ? column and antagonise Sarge or Sheba and jerk off while you are at it as usual. You obviously have nothing better to do.

You are such a phony. Do you suffer from a racial Napolean complex? You talk about how it kills you that blacks ignore white insults but cant take it when other minorities do the same but here is your punk ass bitching about Ghettopoly. Mr the KKK doesnt bother me but a board game does? What kind of a self righteous twat are you?

Ps: If and after you respond to this please dont forget to wipe the cum off your keyboard you sick freak.
quote:
Originally posted by maverick:
Hey Nmaginate I really dont give a damn about what you want to hear and I am not interested in getting into a debate with your self righteous ass. Tell you what why dont you go to the ? column and antagonise Sarge or Sheba and jerk off while you are at it as usual. You obviously have nothing better to do.

You are such a phony. Do you suffer from a racial Napolean complex? You talk about how it kills you that blacks ignore white insults but cant take it when other minorities do the same but here is your punk ass bitching about Ghettopoly. Mr the KKK doesnt bother me but a board game does? What kind of a self righteous twat are you?

Ps: If and after you respond to this please dont forget to wipe the cum off your keyboard you sick freak.

It took you FIVE plus days to come up with that???
rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao

Mr the KKK doesnt bother me but a board game does?

Check that HomeBoy! I only commented when it came to you and LOFTON floatin' BS on this subject. Find a comment of mine that says "Mann... I'm bothered by Ghettopoly" or outraged or anything like that. WHERE is my B*TCHIN' statement about Ghettopoly?

Is that something that IN HASTE you aSSumed like you did about VOX opposing you?

I took exception to your naive On-the-Spot mimicking (I mean Reporting...) of Chang.
"He makes some good points...""He also stated that the game is called ghettopoly not blackopoly (since ghettos are not just black)" Hmmmm....
"Are you going to email Chang again?"

Again, I took exception to what you had to say. Like it or not. Right or wrong!

Sooooooo... Get that sh*t straight!

BTW what is a "racial Napolean complex"? Confused
....More Evidence of Ghettopoly, to Which Plenty of New Material Exists to Support the Game Ghettopoly. The sleaze, greed, and incompetence of Black people has done more harm to other Black people than all the years of slavery. Oh, but wait, this type of activity is limited to the West Coast, and Not the East, "Bull Crap"!

"Oversight Blamed in New Jersey Starvation Case
Child welfare workers had reported no red flags in the home of four malnourished boys.

By Josh Getlin

Times Staff Writer

October 28, 2003

NEW YORK "” Officials took swift action Monday on the latest scandal engulfing New Jersey's child welfare agency but conceded that the discovery of four emaciated adoptees in a suburban home revealed monitoring and oversight problems that could not be cured overnight.

Although state caseworkers reportedly visited the victims' home 38 times in the last two years, most recently in June, they reported nothing amiss to their supervisors, officials said. The lead caseworker, whom officials would not identify, has since resigned, and nine other agency employees were fired Monday in a widening investigation.

"People who made bad decisions will be held accountable, because it's inconceivable how a caseworker could go there and not detect these atrocious conditions," Gov. James E. McGreevey told reporters Monday. "What happened in Collingswood is unforgivable," he said, referring to the blue-collar suburb where an adult male and three boys were found with rotting teeth, lice, distended bellies and other health problems.

Authorities said the victims "” ages 9, 10, 14 and 19 "” had been starved by their parents, Raymond and Vanessa Jackson, who adopted them several years ago through the state's Division of Youth and Family Services. The four collectively weighed 136 pounds, and Bruce, 19, stood only 4 feet tall, police reported.

Showing evidence of what investigators called "dramatic growth retardation," the victims were removed from their home near Philadelphia on Oct. 10. Police arrested the Jacksons on Friday after a two-week investigation, charging them with assault and endangerment and holding them in Camden County Jail on $100,000 bail apiece.

Investigators reported that the victims had been locked out of their family's kitchen and were given a diet of peanut butter, uncooked pancake batter and cereal. The victims also told police that they had eaten wallboard and insulation for nutrition. Officials said utilities in the home had been turned off for the last six months.

Two adopted girls, along with a third girl whom the Jacksons had been seeking to adopt, were also found in the house, but in good health, officials said. All of the children were removed to new foster homes.

The Jacksons were unemployed and had no income beyond the $28,000 in annual child welfare stipends they got from the state, investigators said. The couple home-schooled their children and told authorities the males had eating disorders.

McGreevey's vow to correct such problems echoed statements he made in January, when 7-year-old Faheem Williams was found dead in the basement of a rotting Newark apartment. Child welfare officials, it turned out, had prematurely closed the case of the boy, who had been a suspected victim of abuse.

Since then, state officials have revamped the troubled Division of Youth and Family Services, placing it under the direction of a five-member panel of child welfare experts and appointing a statewide child advocate. In June, the state also settled a lawsuit filed by a battery of child welfare groups, promising to improve the treatment of children in its custody. Child welfare advocates said they were studying whether the Jackson case represented a breach of the state's promises under the settlement.

"This is a system that's been broken for 25 years," McGreevey said in response to questions about the similarity of the Jackson and Williams cases. "It's not going to get fixed in 25 hours."

The Jackson case came to light, prosecutors said, when a neighbor spotted the oldest boy rummaging through a dumpster for food at 2:30 a.m. and reported his physical condition to police. Although some neighbors said the Jacksons seemed to be pleasant people, others said the couple were reclusive and revealed little to outsiders.

"This case apparently just fell through the cracks," Camden County Prosecutor Vincent P. Sarubbi said Monday on ABC's "Good Morning America." "I know that sounds simplistic, but it's still too early to tell [what exactly happened]. We're going through voluminous records, and it's going to take time to go through this."

Police said three of the boys' physical condition improved after they were taken to a hospital, and they had been subsequently released; the 19-year-old, however, remained hospitalized in a cardiac unit.

Kevin M. Ryan, the state's newly appointed child advocate, voiced the anger and incredulity of many who thought New Jersey was on its way to reforming its child welfare programs.

"We have a caseworker who went to a house 38 times in two years," he told reporters. "And many of those times she saw all the children, and she reported in the case record that those children were all safe, despite the fact that the kitchen doors were locked shut and the four boys were obviously starving."

"I only commented when it came to you and LOFTON floatin' BS on this subject. Find a comment of mine that says "Mann... I'm bothered by Ghettopoly" or outraged or anything like that. WHERE is my B*TCHIN' statement about Ghettopoly?" by Nmaginate

....as for B.S., the only individuals convinced lock, stock, and barrel, would be Nmaginate, Kevin41, Norland, etc. In the flesh, it is certain that the victims, would not share the view that this is a fictional occurance. About the only allies, regarding this being B.S. or ficticious, would be that misfit set of Black America, in some Black America's own no good social workers, foster parents, etc., who are a huge part of the problem and very remote from any constructive solution.

In little or no time, with absolutely no compassion for the rights of the abused, and/or lack of constructive thought, and it is